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#debian IRC Logs for 2014-07-09

---Logopened Wed Jul 09 00:00:25 2014
---Daychanged Wed Jul 09 2014
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00:25<mark`>I am having a heck of a time attempting to remap my Ctrl Alt Super keys. I can use the keyboard options under regions settings, but the combination of setting will not allow my desired mapping. That is: Super Alt Ctrl SPC Ctrl ALt Menu. I have tried a few online resources that show editing .xmodmap (gdm3), but I have not had success with those methods. Does anyone know of a good resource for this task?
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00:57<ncl>can nice and ionice be used together as one command or would I have to do one, then the other after the process has started
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01:05<wvdakker>hi, after upgrading to systemd-sysv in testing, the 3G usb modem is not detect anymore. Any pointers how to solve it?
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01:09<jm_>wvdakker: this channel is for debian stable releases, ask in #debian-next
01:09<wvdakker>thanks
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02:27<Guest1769>hallo
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02:28<warhead>Hello
02:28<Guest1769>guten Tag
02:29<warhead>:-)
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02:44-!-JZTech101 is "#techcavern" on @+#techcavern #debian-next #supybot #linux #globaleaks #debian-systemd #debian-offtopic #debian #archlinux
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03:14<MichaelPaoli>Debian wheezy - last two days host seems to be spontaneously powering down - not an ordered clean shutdown, but find host in powered down state, not like sleep or hibernate - still digging through logs, etc, but no "smoking gun" yet ... ideas? Seems this is since latest stable/security updates were applied a couple days ago.
03:15<jm_>what did the updates include?
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03:16<MichaelPaoli>7 vlc packages - version 2.0.3-5 to version 2.0.3-5+deb7u1
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03:17<jm_>what are you doing on the system when it happens?
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03:18<MichaelPaoli>Absolutely nothing ... various processes running, but nobody touching the host physically. Still looking for time correlations, but seems it may happen roughly around same time, at or perhaps shortly after some cron stuff runs.
03:18<jm_>cron.daily?
03:18<MichaelPaoli>E.g. host has webserver, often running btcursesmany, etc., when host went down each time.
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03:19<MichaelPaoli>(btlaunchmanycurses)
03:19<MichaelPaoli>Yes, cron.daily.
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03:20<jm_>are you sure this is a debian system? i can't find btlaunchmanycurses in debian
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03:22<MichaelPaoli>/etc/alternatives/btlaunchmanycurses -> /usr/bin/btlaunchmanycurses.bittorrent dpkg -S /usr/bin/btlaunchmanycurses.bittorrent bittorrent: /usr/bin/btlaunchmanycurses.bittorrent ... bittorrent 3.4.2-11.4
03:22<MichaelPaoli>Description: Debian GNU/Linux 7.5 (wheezy) amd64
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03:24<jm_>ahh crap, I used a wrong command to search for it, sorry
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03:24<MichaelPaoli>No problem ... bit more complex with alternative 'n all in there.
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03:25<jm_>if it was mine I would try using serial or netconsole to see if kernel reports anything (and of course remove quiet from kernel parameters and make sure all kernel messages go to console)
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03:26<jm_>that might make sense after checking other stuff (temperatures, fans if there are any)
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03:29<MichaelPaoli>It's a laptop ... though gets used almost like a server ... up almost all the time - so far no indications of fan or temperature issues or the like, ambient temperatures also haven't been unusually high - often runs hotter without issue when it's doing more intensive stuff (like interactive use with video, and firing up some virtual machines, etc.) ...
03:29-!-swirl [~swirl@host152-140-dynamic.246-95-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #debian
03:29<MichaelPaoli>when it's been found in essentially down state, it would've generally been significantly less active/stressed ... nothing in the logs about any services being particularly hammered upon (e.g. like apache or ssh - though fail2ban also keeps the ssh noise/chatter way down).
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03:32<MichaelPaoli>Seems "whatever" it is, it's not getting logged - I've poured through everything in /var/log with sufficiently recent mtimes - no smoking gun to be found there ... or at least not making it to being logged to file(s), anyway.
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03:33<jm_>most likely that yes
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03:38<MichaelPaoli>... netconsole - just looking that over, that looks potentially promising for perhaps managing to capture what may be going on.
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03:40<helmut_>hi
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04:44<twb>Is there anything in Debian that'll let me give inmates a jillion crossword puzzles to fill out?
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04:45<twb>Hm, qxw and xword at least.
04:45<twb>Then I'd just have to somewhere that hosts the last twenty years of NYT crosswords or something
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06:09<armugam>debian
06:09<Wheeler>Hi! What do you think about using MATE on Debian Wheezy?
06:09<Wheeler>Is it stable enough?
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06:18<babilen>Wheeler: tias?! I personally consider MATE to be a bad idea that should not have any future ... There was also a long thread on debian-devel about it that you might want to read.
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06:45<samkod>Yesterday I updated a few of the mate packages from wheezy and now I don't have the option to suspend when I click the shutdown button applet. This happened long ago and I forgot what I did to fix it, anyone have any ideas?
06:45<samkod>upgraded*
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06:58<utente>hi. im have to do a presentation. i wish to do some graphics with libreovvice draw. i nsse some images as "desktop" "wireless antenna" etc. there are some .deb package with a library of icon free from copiright?
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07:01<Brigo>utente, i do not kown, but i doub it. I think you can try to get them in wikicommons
07:02<utente>Brigo, thaks.
07:04<jm_>heh xfig or dia come with some, so maybe look at that too
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07:06<utente>jm_, xfig? never used. let me check.
07:07<utente>jm_, is dia a "clone" of Visio Microsoft?
07:08<jm_>utente: never used visio but probably similar
07:08<utente>i instll now.
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07:13<utente>jm_, dia seems to fit my needs, thanks.
07:14<jm_>utente: no problem
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08:34<SpaceKookie>Is there an IRC channel on the Debian server for generic packaging help? I'm new to it and ran into a problem that I have no idea how to fix :p
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08:35<Maulkin>#debian-mentors
08:35<babilen>SpaceKookie: #debian-mentorsd
08:35<babilen>-d :(
08:35<SpaceKookie>Thank you :)
08:35<babilen>have fun
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08:35*devil_ takes the d and stashes it for dire times
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08:36<Guest1815>hello
08:36<Maulkin>Hi there
08:37<Guest1815>hello maulkin
08:37<Guest1815>tis geman
08:37<Guest1815>this !!
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08:37<devil_>!de
08:37<dpkg>Deutschsprachige Hilfe bekommt ihr in #debian.de (auf irc.oftc.net, irc.freenode.net oder irc.belwue.de) - German speaking users please go to #debian.de (on irc.oftc.net, irc.freenode.net or irc.belwue.de).
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08:43<mjt>how to change keyboard definition in gnome, like compose key, switching intl. layout etc? In control-panel they say to click on a row and hit the needed key, but when I do that nothing happens. I reconfigured keyboard-configuration package and rebooted, but in X the keys are the same as before...
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08:43<mjt>right now my compose key is set to right-win, but this laptop does not have rwin key, and I want to change it to alt-gr.
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08:45<FragByte>mjt: you can do that with gnome-tweak-tool
08:45<mjt>isn't keyboard-configuration supposed to bring difference between X and tty to the end?
08:47<FragByte>well gnome does something like setxkbmap (or calls it directly?, idk) when it starts, so it would override it anyway
08:47<FragByte>wether keyboard-configuration has any effect on X at all is also beyond me ;)
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08:49<mjt>okay, with gnome-tweak-tool i was able to change intl. layout toggle key. But not the compose key.
08:49<mjt>isn't, again, gnome-control-center supposed to _work_ ?
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08:51<FragByte>not a gnome dev ;) If it does not work or does not give you the option you can always use setxkbmap directly and put it in your startup config
08:51<mjt>..which will be overridden by gnome. I had it all once in my .xinitrc
08:53<mjt>in gnome keyboard configuration dialog, in "Typing" tab, there's a way to set just one thing - "Switch to previous input source", - when I hit this row, I can actually define a key to do that, and when I hit this row it display "Hit new key" message. When I hit all other rows, nothing changes at all
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08:53<mjt>this usability is what makes linux unusable really.
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08:54<FragByte>set org.gnome.settings-daemon.plugins.keyboard disabled with gsettings
08:54<FragByte>or dconf-editor
08:54<babilen>mjt: I just have XKBOPTIONS="compose:menu,terminate:ctrl_alt_bksp,ctrl:nocaps,lv3:ralt_switch" in /etc/default/keyboard and it works great.
08:55<mjt>babilen: it works great here too as long as I don't run gnome (eg, in xfce)
08:55<mjt>oh great
08:55<FragByte>unfortunately i'm not running gnome anymore and dont know how what this keyboard-settings thingy looks like or what it does, sry
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08:56<mjt>so despite of what the help text says in the gnome keyboard control panel, I have to use the table cell as a pop-up MENU instead of hitting they key I want to use.
08:56<babilen>mjt: Let me check the status in Gnome
08:56<mjt>lovely. now it works.
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09:00<babilen>mjt: You mean I logged out of my beloved WM and started Gnome for no reason whatsoever‽
09:00<mjt>heh
09:01<babilen>I also have "Menu" in Settings→Keyboard→Typing→Compose Key
09:01<mjt>well. Gnome keyboard contol definitely needs some love
09:01<babilen>Which version of Gnome do you use?
09:02<mjt>gnome-shell 3.8.4-8.1gnome-shell 3.8.4-8.1
09:02<mjt>damn
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09:02<mjt>another thing I tried to find a solution for but unsuccessfully so far
09:03<mjt>that's about the pasting from the x selection area on this and some other laptops
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09:03<mjt>someone suggested that 3-finger touch of the touchpad should do it, but here it always produces double-paste like the above
09:04<mjt>not really always - most of the time it does nothing, but when it does (once in about 10 touches) it produces double-paste ;)
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09:06<babilen>mjt: Don't you want #debian-next ?
09:06<mjt>so, that gnome keyboard control panel. The help text is wrong, it says "click the row you need to change and press the key you want to be defined for this action", while only 2 rows in there work that way, which is the intl. layout switching (next/prev). The rest of the rows uses a sort of a combo-box - I clicked into the value in there just by a chance.
09:07<mjt>and the whole this thing - 3.8 gnome - because something else was Very Wrong usability-wise in wheezy, so I tried to install gnome 3.8 which ended up upgrading to jessie. Lots'a stuff stopped working, but the thing why I installed it didn't change.
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09:08<mjt>(one of those wrong things is the X selection paste which I already mentioned)
09:08<babilen>Well, you should have upgraded to jessie in a defined and controlled manner, not simply by pulling in gnome
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09:08<babilen>X selection paste?
09:09<mjt>nah, i looked at what it will do when just installing gnome, and just ran apt-get dist-upgrade -t jessie
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09:10<mjt>x selection paste - select some text in an xterm (or similar) and paste it (maybe to the same xterm)
09:10<mjt>middle mouse button does that
09:10<mjt>but there's no buttons on the touchpad
09:11<mjt>Shift-Ins pastes the X primary buffer, not X selection buffer.
09:13<mjt>#debian-next. I tried asking something in there several times but that was mostly a waste of time.
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11:56<attila>hello everyone, i use linux mint (with upstart), but i would like to try systemd. which repository content systemd-gui and systemd-gtk?
11:57<zumbi>!mint
11:57<dpkg>Linux Mint is not Debian and is not supported in #debian. Please use their forums at http://forums.linuxmint.com/ or join #linuxmint-help on irc.spotchat.org for support. Linux Mint is variously based on <Ubuntu> with a "Linux Mint Debian Edition" (LMDE) also available, based on <testing>. See also <based on debian>, <mintppc>.
11:58<attila>linux mint is not debian, but systemd is part of debian
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11:58<RichiH>attila: unless you run systemd packages provided by linux mint, you are in for trouble
11:59<RichiH>mint is too far away from debian to re-use such fundamental packages
12:00<RichiH>if you really want to break your system (but don't expect a lot of help in here as it would be a doubly unsupported mix), see
12:00<RichiH>!pdo
12:00<dpkg>http://packages.debian.org/ - here you can search for Debian packages and their contents. Pretty Damned Obvious, isn't it?, or http://people.debian.org/ in some contexts. Maybe even http://planet.debian.org/
12:00-!-gomex [~gomex@179.177.187.34.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out]
12:00<RichiH>speaking of breaking stuff, why does stable have:
12:00<RichiH>ls -l /usr/bin/ruby1.9.3
12:00<RichiH>lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 9 Dec 2 2013 /usr/bin/ruby1.9.3 -> ruby1.9.1
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12:03<musca>attila: perhaps you could use a virtual machine for trying such things
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12:07<Zaba>RichiH, 1.9.1 is the ABI version, 1.9.3 is the actual ruby version
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12:07<attila>thank you suggestion for RichiH and musca
12:07<RichiH>Zaba: so stuff that requires 1.9.3 should or should not work?
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12:08<RichiH>(i know next to nothing about ruby)
12:08<Zaba>RichiH, it is 1.9.3, but debian prefers the ABI version for its versioning
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12:08<Zaba>RichiH, the descriptions of the ruby1.9.1 and ruby1.9.3 packages try to clear this up, somewhat
12:09<Zaba>RichiH, as you can see, the Version of the ruby1.9.1 package is actually 1.9.3.194-...
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12:09<RichiH>Zaba: yes, i saw that
12:09<RichiH>and was confused :)
12:09<Zaba>RichiH, it just so happened that ruby last broke ABI compatibility with 1.9.1
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12:32<Brainfvck>fff
12:32<Brainfvck>loltest
12:33-!-mode/#debian [+o SynrGy] by ChanServ
12:33-!-mode/#debian [+q *!*@host47-216-dynamic.16-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] by SynrGy
12:33-!-mode/#debian [-o SynrGy] by SynrGy
12:34<SynrGy>Brainfvck: play elsewhere please
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12:35<pedrucho>hi, can anyone please help me booting crunchband from the usb pen? i already burned the iso into the pen
12:35<pedrucho>i just need too boot
12:36<pedrucho>anyone helping?
12:37<FlowRiser>Did you select the right boot action/order?
12:37<FlowRiser>from the bios or the boot-menu?
12:37-!-prasad [~quassel@49.204.123.199] has joined #debian
12:37<SynrG>!crunchbang
12:37<dpkg>CrunchBang Linux is a Live CD distribution originally based on <Ubuntu>, now based on Debian as of version 10, featuring the <Openbox> window manager. It is not supported in #debian. http://www.crunchbang.org/ #crunchbang on irc.freenode.net. See <based on debian>.
12:38<pedrucho>im so upset, im suspicious that my bios doesnt support boot from pen
12:38<pedrucho>it suports boot from usb cdrom
12:38<pedrucho>usb fdd
12:38<pedrucho>usb zip
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12:38<SynrG>pedrucho: stop
12:38*FlowRiser backs slowly away.
12:38<SynrG>pedrucho: i'm so sorry you're having a hard time, but your distribution is not supported here. please see #crunchbang @ irc.freenode.net
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12:39<pedrucho>ok, no problem
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14:43<pedrucho>whats the difference between ubuntu or debian?
14:44<jmcnaught>pedrucho: every six months Ubuntu takes a copy of Debian, makes many substantial changes and editions, and releases it whether it works well or not
14:44<jmcnaught>s/editions/additions
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14:46<pedrucho>id like to make a philosofic question, but its a about debian or debian based distros, can i =
14:46<pedrucho>phylosofic
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14:47<pedrucho>*can i ?*
14:47<jmcnaught>pedrucho: probably better suited in #debian-offtopic, or maybe even ##linux on freenode
14:47<pedrucho>ok
14:47<pedrucho>whats lts?
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14:48<pedrucho>long term support
14:48<jmcnaught>!lts
14:48<dpkg>Volunteer-provided security support for Debian 6.0 "Squeeze" will continue until 2016-02-06 for a limited set of packages for i386 and amd64. An appropriate line for your sources.list is «deb http://http.debian.net/debian/ squeeze-lts main». See also the «check-support-status» command from the debian-security-support package and https://wiki.debian.org/LTS for more information. #debian-lts on irc.oftc.net.
14:48<pedrucho>!long term support
14:48<jmcnaught>!tell pedrucho -about selftell
14:48<jmcnaught>pedrucho: you can message the bot on your own too :)
14:48<pedrucho>right on :⁾
14:49<pedrucho>does the ubuntu support room has a bot like this?
14:49<jmcnaught>i don't know, i don't really hang out there
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14:50<pedrucho>i think that the main difference between debian or ubuntu in my new bie understanding, is the support room
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14:51<pedrucho>thats too phylosofic ill just join ubuntu off topic
14:51<pedrucho>ty for your time
14:52<pedrucho>i mean debian offtopic
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15:04<Nikno>Anybody having experience with compiling postfix? I get some weird error while compiling.
15:05<txt-file>!ask
15:05<dpkg>If you have a question, just ask! For example: "I have a problem with ___; I'm running Debian version ___. When I try to do ___ I get the following output ___. I expected it to do ___." Don't ask if you can ask, if anyone uses it, or pick one person to ask. We're all volunteers; make it easy for us to help you. If you don't get an answer try a few hours later or on debian-user@lists.debian.org. See <smart questions><errors>.
15:05<jmcnaught>Nikno: why not use the postfix package?
15:05<Nikno>That is not what I'm asking right now. I discussed alot about that.
15:07<Nikno>Compile error + make statement: http://pastebin.com/5Fwrd6AD
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15:11<jmcnaught>Nikno: could you use http://paste.debian.net/ ? All i got at that link was a cat picture
15:11<Nikno>Really? Sorry, sure.
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15:12<Nikno>http://paste.debian.net/108960/
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15:15<Nikno>-fPIC doesn't help :/
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15:15<jmcnaught>Nikno: sorry not sure exactly. It looks like it's not finding the right MySQL headers (did you compile that too?). You might get better advice in #postfix on freenode for this issue. Also just thought I'd mention that Postfix 2.11.1 is packaged in wheezy-backports
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15:17<Nikno>Oh great, I'll check that channel out, thanks! Yes, I know about the backport. Hate me, but I also compiled MySQL and that wouldn't work with the dependencies.
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16:39<zartoosh>hi how could I make the entries in boot.log to have timestamp? thx
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17:24<torjv>pici after changing to purposed i got the kernel download, but after reboot I'm still at 24, 30 will not boot(panic), any clue?
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17:42<pedrucho>hi,im bac
17:42<pedrucho>back
17:43<pedrucho>im trying to share a public folder in debian
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17:43<pedrucho>ive tryed with root permisions but no luck
17:43<oldlaptop>pedrucho: Are you talking about setting permissions for one system, or serving files across the network?
17:44<pedrucho>oldlaptop, acrosss the network
17:44<oldlaptop>There are many ways to accomplish that
17:44<pedrucho>ive tryed installing samba but no luck
17:44<oldlaptop>Are windows machines involved?
17:45<pedrucho>oldlaptop, virtual machines, xp on a vbox
17:45-!-debalance [~debalance@00017b9a.user.oftc.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:45<oldlaptop>ah - note that virtualbox supports "shared folders" for guests
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17:45<oldlaptop>that is, you assign one folder on the host that will appear as a network share to guests
17:45<pedrucho>oldlaptop, ive shared the folder on vbox settings
17:45<pedrucho>no luck
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17:46<oldlaptop>you need virtualbox's guest additions installed for the guest
17:46<pedrucho>oldlaptop, do you mean i have to install guest addictions to share a folder?
17:46<oldlaptop>I believe there's an option for that somewhere in its menus
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17:46<pedrucho>with vbox?
17:46<oldlaptop>Using virtualbox's shared folders, yes
17:47<pedrucho>oldlaptop, you mean i have to install guest addictions?
17:47<oldlaptop>Yes
17:47<pedrucho>ty
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17:47<planetmaker>ehm. Is that all on one physical machine only?
17:47<pedrucho>yes
17:48<planetmaker>then indeed, install guest additions in virtualbox
17:48<pedrucho>i will
17:48<pedrucho>precious help
17:48<oldlaptop>you can also use normal network sharing stuff - but that's much more difficult to set up
17:48<planetmaker>yup :)
17:48<oldlaptop>(it's easier between two real machines)
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17:49<pedrucho>oldlaptop, on the file sharing menu, at system menu, im no capable of setting the option read and write files
17:49<pedrucho>weirds
17:51<oldlaptop>pedrucho: I'm sorry; can you rephrase that? Is this in the virtualbox manager?
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17:51<pedrucho>oldlaptop, im using nautils, and when i right click on the "public" folder to share it, its getting blocked
17:52<oldlaptop>Oh, you don't need to do anything with that
17:52<oldlaptop>networking isn't actually involved, virtualbox makes it appear that way to the guest system
17:52<oldlaptop>You need to set up shared folders in the virtualbox manager
17:53<oldlaptop>(and have the guest additions installed in the guest system)
17:53<pedrucho>oldlaptop, are you shure i need guest addictions to share a folder form my machine into a virtual machine?
17:53<oldlaptop>The easiest way uses them, yes
17:54<oldlaptop>(additions, not addictions - that typo could mess up a google search pretty good...)
17:54<pedrucho>oldlaptop, im getting unlucky with guest addictions at the moment, i went at a the menu, "install guest addictions" and i get no reaction
17:54<pedrucho>ok lap
17:54<oldlaptop>IIRC it will download and mount an ISO file for the guest system (that is, windows will see a new CD drive with the guest additions on it)
17:55<oldlaptop>so go look for that in windows :)
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17:56<pedrucho>please wait im a bit tired, ill catch with you in a while
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18:46<grummund>Hi, sound is sometimes working and sometimes not, where should i look to investigate this?
18:47<valdyn>grummund: find a correlation that is not time
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18:48<grummund>well let's say if it wasn't working at all? what to check?
18:49<valdyn>!sound
18:49<dpkg>Ask me about <alsa>, <alsa checklist>. See also <default alsa>, <pulseaudio>.
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18:49<valdyn>grummund: ^^
18:49<grummund>thanks i'll start there
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19:35<john>newbie questions allowed here?
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19:37<mtn>john: sure, if it is about debian, go right ahead
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19:41<john>i have been searching for anwser, and found much info about Users and Groups Administration... a lot of details on how to apply... but i like to learn about the what and why... more about what kind of securety models are posible to create with them...
19:42<john>so far i understand you can use groups for application, file and directory excess..
19:42-!-r3ng4f [~r3ng4f@187.28.188.147] has joined #debian
19:42<oldlaptop>john: Groups are primarily useful for unix file permissions
19:43-!-r3ng4f [~r3ng4f@187.28.188.147] has quit []
19:43<john> how about limiting or blocking network excess for surten groups?
19:43<oldlaptop>traditionally, any given user can have any combination of read, write, or execute permissions to any given file
19:43<oldlaptop>but it's not assigned per-user
19:44<oldlaptop>there's one set of permissions for a file's owner, one for the owning group, and one for everybody
19:44<john>? if its not assign per user how come any user can have any combination or permissions?
19:44<oldlaptop>Network access is more troublesome
19:45<oldlaptop>john: you can have any given combination of permissions to any given file
19:45<john>how that so?
19:45<oldlaptop>it's just not assigned explicity 'john has r and x to /some/place/foo'
19:46<oldlaptop>it's "the owner bert has r w and x to /some/place/foo, the group bar has r and x, everyone else has none"
19:46<oldlaptop>or something to that effect
19:46<oldlaptop>There are things called access control lists that have been introduced relatively recently
19:47<oldlaptop>ACLs are still not horribly well supported, however
19:47<oldlaptop>(they do, however, provide an ability to assign fine-grained permissions to files)
19:48<john>you mean not support in doesn't work on all debian distros or as in some application don't care about acl settings
19:48<oldlaptop>well. Unix ACLs were never completely standardized, and are largely separate from traditional unix permissions
19:49<john>but actualy im looking for fine-grained permission to network excess and was wondering if i could solve that with user and groups
19:49<oldlaptop>they also tend to be lost when copying between different filesystems, or when tarring files up
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19:50<oldlaptop>I *think* you may need something like selinux to have network access permissions
19:51<oldlaptop>having googled that for you: http://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/linux-networking-3/how-to-set-up-network-permissions-for-user-accounts-restrict-network-access-525574/
19:53<john>can a user be a member of multiple groups and each group specifies a subset of permissions... ??
19:53<john>thanks...
19:53<oldlaptop>Yes
19:53<oldlaptop>in practice this mainly controls permissions to files
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19:54<john>and how about hardware ... like permission to save to usb stick or view webcam?
19:54<oldlaptop>which is more useful than it sounds, since many devices are accessed as virtual files under /dev/
19:55<oldlaptop>for a USB stick, you would simply adjust permissions for the files inside
19:55<oldlaptop>(it's certainly possible to prevent users from *mounting* usb sticks and the like)
19:56<oldlaptop>I'm not personally familiar with webcams - if they're accessed through /dev, traditional file permissions will apply
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19:57<john>ah nice did think of that...
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19:57<oldlaptop>of course, it should be emphasized that if users have physical access to a machine, none of this matters a whole lot
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19:58<john>? why?
19:58<oldlaptop>one of the maxims of computer security is that 'physical access is root access' - one can easily reset the root password, for instance
19:58<canaima>hola
19:59<oldlaptop>there are a few ways around that, involving full-disk encryption and that sort of thing
19:59<oldlaptop>still imperfect
19:59<john>don't you need the root password to reset it?
19:59<oldlaptop>From a running system, sure
19:59<oldlaptop>but imagine someone just putting a liveCD in and rebooting
20:00<john>ahhh i see, that will do it...
20:00<oldlaptop>*anything* on the system can then be altered, without regard to permissions (unless the whole disk is encrypted)
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20:00<oldlaptop>in fact, many linuxes/unixes don't even bother asking for the root password when booting into single-user mode
20:00<oldlaptop>since it's just a speedbump
20:01<oldlaptop>although Debian does, IIRC
20:01<oldlaptop>Of course, without physical access it's a different story
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20:02<oldlaptop>although there are still privilege escalation bugs discovered every now and then...
20:02<john>ah oke... purpose of intent i can assume no physical access.
20:02<oldlaptop>(as always, you need to keep things up-to-date)
20:03<oldlaptop>Without physical access you can lock things down fairly tightly without bolt-on stuff like ACLs and selinux
20:03<oldlaptop>depending on what you want to lock down
20:04<john>well, at the moment im not to worried about posible compremisse... my first focus getting my default setting tightly
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20:05<john>oke, maybe i just explain what im trying to do...
20:05<oldlaptop>was about to ask that :)
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20:11<john>well, im trying to implement some sort of Security by Isolation, Whonix is to have, qubes os is still apha, and tails is to restrictive.... so what i comeup with is... creating 4 extra users besides admin and defaultuser... defautl user should have all network access blocked. a intranet user should have only local +loopback , a internetuser with no loopback and a tor user... and then from the default user desktop run application as a diffrent user
20:11<john>depending on there network connection needs...
20:12<john>sounds simple right?
20:12<oldlaptop>you'll very probably need to mess with iptables, selinux, or both
20:12<oldlaptop>It's not so simple unfortunately
20:13<john>i was affraid your going to say that...
20:14<oldlaptop>Probably not horribly useful either - I'd imagine you're trying to prevent stuff from phoning home?
20:14<john>jep
20:14<john>that about it...
20:15<oldlaptop>probably simpler (and safer) to run untrusted stuff in VMs
20:15<oldlaptop>if you can't trust some proprietary junkware not to phone home, you can't trust it not to do other nasty things as well
20:16<oldlaptop>now, VMs aren't perfect isolation either
20:16<oldlaptop>but they're probably better than some rickety firewalling/selinux nightmare
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20:17<john>well, i like the idee behind Security by Isolation, but i don't need militairy grade stuf, just want to block all, and give premmision only to what i really need...
20:18<john>i hear even proffesional then selinux is complicated, so hoping to avoid that..
20:18<oldlaptop>there are simpler bolt-on mechanisms
20:19<oldlaptop>apparmor, grsecurity are a couple
20:19<oldlaptop>I'm not personally familiar with any of them
20:20<oldlaptop>honestly the easiest way to do what you want is going to be virtualization
20:23<john>maybe stupid question but in debian are thinks like network cards also files?
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20:25<john>i might do vm stuff, but first reasch this still a bit more, but atleast now i know what im looking for...
20:29<john>oldlaptop, thank for your help...
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20:31<oldlaptop>john: Network interfaces are not files
20:32<sney>which I've never really understood - why can't eth0 be in /dev if TTYS0 and lp0 and sda etc. all are
20:32<oldlaptop>for various technical and historical reasons networking is all handled through system calls (i.e. programs use the kernel's C API, directly or indirectly)
20:32<oldlaptop>e.g. the TCP/IP stack is all in the kernel
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20:33<oldlaptop>perhaps plan9 has network interfaces as files :P
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20:35<bzed>john: you could use lxc and run your bad[tm] stuff in a container without network
20:36<oldlaptop>or go to kfreebsd and use jails :P
20:36<bzed>yes, depending on your level of masochism ;)
20:37-!-mode/#debian [+l 643] by debhelper
20:37<john>so then firewall of Linux Security Modules are my only options... in debian...?
20:37<bzed>john: .... read what I just wrote...
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20:38<oldlaptop>john: You can use one of several bolt-on security frameworks, use iptables (i.e. firewall rules), or use one form of virtualization or another
20:38<oldlaptop>(such as lxc)
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20:38<bzed>you can even mix it by giving your lxc container some virtual network which is firewalled and routed by your host machine, using iptables
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20:38<bzed>john: ^ :)
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20:39<john>going to do quick check what lxc is...
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20:40<oldlaptop>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux_Containers
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20:40<oldlaptop>lightweight virtualization kind of thing, apparently not unlike freebsd jails
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20:42<oldlaptop>(freebsd jails being usable on Debian through kfreebsd-i386/kfreebsd-amd64 - obviously that's quite different from normal linux-based debian)
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20:43<oldlaptop>you can also obviously use full-fledged hypervisors for virtualization (virtualbox, kvm, xen, etc)
20:43<oldlaptop>xen is probably the most secure OSS hypervisor (?), but also is relatively difficult to use
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20:44<john>was trying to avoid virtualbox.. but i have to say the lxc look intresting
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20:45<oldlaptop>do avoid virtualbox ;)
20:45<oldlaptop>I would suggest qemu/kvm instead if you go that route
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20:45<john>try to keep it as simple and transparent as possible...
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20:47<john>well, simple might be an understatment.. but you understand what i mean...
20:48<oldlaptop>yes
20:48<oldlaptop>to that end I just don't bother with isolation for the most part :P
20:48<oldlaptop>I do have a VM I keep a working flash-player in
20:48<john>hihi
20:48<oldlaptop>for those few times when avoiding flash is entirely impractical
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20:51<john>got to go.. thanks...
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23:37-!-mode/#debian [+l 643] by debhelper
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23:55-!-Schnabel- is now known as Schnabeltier
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---Logclosed Thu Jul 10 00:00:14 2014