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#debian IRC Logs for 2016-03-14

---Logopened Mon Mar 14 00:00:16 2016
---Daychanged Mon Mar 14 2016
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00:18<snell>hello, I need to boot up my encrypted partition, but the old boot partition is gone now (forever). Since I have 2 different drives, I was wondering how to boot the encrypted partition using my primary GRUB install
00:23<jmcnaught>snell: if you boot the debian installer in rescue mode it might be able to install GRUB on the encrypted drive for you
00:24<snell>how would it do that, though? There isn't a section on the encrypted drive that could be used as such (that I know of)
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00:26<jmcnaught>snell: hmm.. i guess reinstalling grub to the MBR isn't going to give back /boot and the kernel
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00:29<snell>I used to have 3 drives, one for primary install (unencrypted; couldn't boot encrypted), second one was encrypted install, third contained random files and a bootloader that could boot the second drive. I no longer have the third drive.
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00:36<snell>hello, my connection failed. Has anything been directed to me within the last 10 minutes?
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00:38<jmcnaught>snell: nope
00:38<jmcnaught>snell: do you have somewhere new that /boot could go?
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00:40<snell>well, my primary install has a /boot I was thinking of using for the bootloader to load the encrypted install, but it is unable to detect the encrypted install
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00:43<snell>I have tried chrooting in and installing grub using primary install's stuff. So far, it has been unable to complete install-grub command
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00:45<somiaj>snell: are you using efi boot and thus need an efi partition or legacy? And if using legacy are you use mbr or gtp partition tables?
00:46<jmcnaught>snell: usually grub stuff is handled automatically for me, but i figure you should be able to get your existing grub to boot the encrypted install, but it would need its own /boot. and what somiaj said.
00:46<snell>I think I'm using legacy. I'm not sure, things have changed a bit. It installs something into the mbr to make my dual boot go to linux rather than windows.
00:46<somiaj>just making sure you aren't crossing wires and booting into legacy when you need efi or visa/versa
00:47<snell>oh, you know what...
00:48<snell>the partition table on primary is MBR and the partition table on secondary is GUID with EFI partition type
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00:48<somiaj>you can still use legacy boot with GPT partition table, but you need an MBR partition or some flag, I forget the details
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00:49<snell>I got disconnected. Did you say anything
00:49<somiaj>you can still use legacy boot with GPT partition table, but you need an MBR partition or some flag, I forget the details
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07:20<PP>hola
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07:20<PP>how do i make my commandline pass through tor
07:20<chris_se>there's torsocks that works for most things
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07:24<PP>chris how do i go about it
07:25<chris_se>install torsocks and run torsocks command instead of command
07:25<chris_se>no guarantee that it will work with specific programs though
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08:01<levi>Hi everybody!
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08:08<jmlongo>hey there
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08:12<warhead>Hi
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08:35<k01dun>hi all! can any1 tell my why i got this error: http://i68.tinypic.com/33urjo2.jpg
08:37<k01dun>trying to run the file from the current directory and get an error - file not found
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08:39<jm_>is it a shell script?
08:40<k01dun>its ELF exucateble
08:40<k01dun>others files start normaly, but this not
08:40<themill>it's built for the wrong architecture
08:41<jm_>http://grep.be/blog//en/computer/cluebat/File_not_found_on_exec/
08:41<jm_>yeah
08:41<k01dun>its for 32bit, i cant start it at x64 system?
08:42<kinlo>you can if you install 32bit support
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08:42<themill>Yes, but you need libc and the loader
08:43<k01dun>in page upper i see: <target architecture> what i need to write there?
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08:44<themill>k01dun: "dpkg --add-architecture i386; apt update; apt install libc6:i386" is probably enough
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08:45<k01dun>oh, TY guys, im new in debian, after centos hard to understand -.-
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08:55<drooly>i have a debian server connected to the net, but no domain.
08:56<drooly>right now i need to receive an email on that server
08:56<drooly>most probably like root@XX.XX.XX.XX
08:56<drooly>is it possible to set my server up to do this, if even only once?
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08:57<chris_se>well, it's possible (user@ip is a valid email address), but mail server configuration is non-trivial, especially if you want to deviate from the norm of what people are doing
08:57<drooly>it seems every tutorial i find is for large scenarios with multiple users and forwarding and whatnot, and then they also keep talking about MX records, which i'm pretty sure i don't have.
08:58<drooly>i hit enter before i saw your answer.
08:58<drooly>well non-trivial is ok. but how?
08:58<chris_se>so you could probably start with debian's exim4 debconf system: dpkg-reconfigure exim4-config
08:59<chris_se>then select 'internet site'
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09:00<chris_se>and then enter something like hostname.example.com (replace hostname with the name you gave your machine) and example.com as hostname / domain name or something like that
09:00<drooly>aaah, that's where i went wrong the first time i think!
09:01<drooly>i just entered the ip.
09:01<chris_se>and by default exim4 should be able to receive emails for IPs - but I'm not sure. also note that you have to be really careful when deploying a mailserver because you don't want to be a spam relay - I think the default debian configuration shouldn't do that, but I'm not going to guarantee that
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09:02<chris_se>(I always configure mail servers from the ground up, and I'm not using exim myself, so can't really help you there)
09:02<drooly>yes, i understand that. right now it looks like i need to receive only one mail, and can disable it again afterwards.
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09:03<drooly>it's a verification thing for a ca certificate.
09:03<drooly>so, in the 2nd dialog window, exim4-config asks:
09:03<drooly>This name will also be used by other programs. It should be the single, fully qualified domain name (FQDN).
09:03<chris_se>yeah, use $YOURHOSTNAME.example.com or so
09:04<drooly>so hostname.IP?
09:04<chris_se>no, no IP
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09:04<chris_se>let's say you called your host "bob", then use "bob.example.com"
09:04<chris_se>(the example.com was meant literally here)
09:04<drooly>you mean literally example.com?
09:05<chris_se>yes, because it's a reserved domain for example usage - so you don't accidentally use a valid domain (or something that might be valid later on)
09:05<chris_se>you can also use "bob.invalid" if you like IIRC
09:07<drooly>next comes The Exim SMTP listener daemon will listen on all IP addresses listed here. - i guess that's the internal ip address my router has assigned to the machine?
09:07<chris_se>it's behind a router? how does that help you with CA certificates?
09:08<drooly>i don't understand the question. i'm in the process of setting up ssl for my website
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09:08<chris_se>ok, but your website is hosted somewhere, right?
09:09<drooly>which involves, as an optional step, to get one from e.g. cacert.org, so clients don't get "untrusted connection"
09:09<drooly>not hosted, my own
09:09<chris_se>why don't you use let's encrypt?
09:09<drooly>i mean, it's hosted on my own spare laptop
09:10<drooly>what's let's encrypt?
09:10<chris_se>https://letsencrypt.org/
09:10<chris_se>allows you to get certificates for free that are accepted in browsers
09:10<chris_se>doesn't support wildcards, but works really well
09:10<drooly>well, i could try if they do not require me to verify my server with an email.
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09:11<blast007>drooly: does your ISP provide you a static IP?
09:11<chris_se>if you have a weird setup such as you, you're probably best of using the "manual" verification approach (you have to copy a few files into your webroot manually, which are then checked by them)
09:12<drooly>ok, sounds easier. the instructions on cacert.org didn't seem to have any options like that.
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09:12<chris_se>oh wait, no, manual encryption requires you to temporarily stop your web server
09:12<chris_se>see: https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Let%E2%80%99s_Encrypt (doesn't matter that it's arch linux)
09:12<chris_se>(for Debian there's the letsencrypt client in jessie-backports)
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09:13<drooly>temporarily stopping my server? for how long?
09:13<chris_se>you could also try the webroot plugin (where you give it a place in the web server's documentroot)
09:13<chris_se>(that won't require you to stop the server, but will require you to provide it a place in the file system where the root directory of your webserver is)
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09:13<chris_se>how long? a minute or so
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09:14<drooly>that's not a problem. i think i'll try letsencrypt first.
09:14<drooly>typical XY problem :-)
09:14<blast007>you'll need a domain
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09:14<drooly>for letsencrypt?
09:14<chris_se>yes
09:15<chris_se>but you also need that for cacert, so...
09:15<drooly>i'm not so sure. cacert seemed happy to send an email to root@nn.nn.nn.nn
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09:16<chris_se>oh ok, but let's encrypt doesn't support pure IPs
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09:17<blast007>"There is no way to register a certificate for an IP address, only for domain names. This is because we cannot warranty that IP won't change." from cacert's wiki.
09:17<blast007>http://wiki.cacert.org/FAQ/NoDomainName
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09:18<chris_se>so if I read that correctly cacert can send an email to the IP address of the server for verification, but the subject of the certificate can't be an IP => you can't get a certificate for https://IP/
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09:18<chris_se>(maybe you can from a CA which you have to pay if you demonstrate to them via some documentation that the IP will always remain yours)
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09:22<drooly>chris_se, thanks for the help. i have some more research to do now...
09:22<grove>You really should get a domain before considering SSL
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09:24<chris_se>or use a self-signed certificate if it's not a public service
09:25<themill>or reconsider running a spam relay^W^Wmail server
09:26<drooly> You really should get a domain before considering SSL - why?
09:28<chris_se>because SSL only really works with domains
09:29<chris_se>you can use it for IP addresses, but unless you pay a lot of money to some CA I doubt you'll get a certificate for it
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09:33<drooly>incidentally my isp provider just confirmed that my ip address is static.
09:34<drooly>but i have some more research to do.
09:34<blast007>doesn't necessarily matter to a CA. they might have more strict requirements for an IP certificate, such as having your name on the 'whois' information for that IP or netblock. but really, just get a domain name...
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09:46<grove>If I were running the CA you wouldn't get a certificate valid for any longer than you could prove that you have paid the ISP to have exactly that IP (and most ISP offering static IP's have some clauses in their terms allowing them to change it)
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10:07<scootergrisen>I want to translate strings in Debian that are accosiated with software i have translated
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10:07<scootergrisen>Like strings in the package manager that describes the program before you install it
10:07<scootergrisen>Where do i find these strings?
10:08-!-mode/#debian [+l 764] by debhelper
10:08<themill>!ddtp
10:08<dpkg>well, ddtp is the Debian Description Translation Project, read all about it at http://www.debian.org/intl/l10n/ddtp
10:09<themill>scootergrisen: ^^ also chat with the nice people in #debian-i18n
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10:13<scootergrisen>thanks
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11:09<nisy>Hi all, does any know where is the irc channel or bug trace of synaptic? I don't find it in its official site 'http://www.nongnu.org/synaptic/' , thanks ~~
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11:12<scootergrisen>Funny word "nongnu"... not gnu is not unix... so i guess the to nots cancle each other out
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11:46<scootergrisen>I would like to try another window manager or what ever its called to try something else.
11:46<scootergrisen>What would be a good choice?
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11:48<sney>e17
11:49<flap_>I just installed debian and selected BTRFS for root. Any idea how I can move the root to a subvolume post-install? Apparently debian installs on the top-level
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11:49<scootergrisen>Can i switch from what ever im using now to e17 without problems or might it give problems?
11:50<somiaj>scootergrisen: a lot depends on your needs, debian provides many. I use fvwm, icewm seems to be popular. but so has openbox, fluxbox and various other window managers
11:50<somiaj>!window-manager
11:50<somiaj>scootergrisen: in debian the window managers should be able to live side by side so install various options and try them out
11:50<somiaj>you can just remove the ones you don't want to use later
11:50<somiaj>!wm
11:50<dpkg>A window manager is a special application class which decorates and manages windows for the X server. To list available window managers in your system, run «apt-cache showpkg x-window-manager». Not to be confused with a desktop environment such as <GNOME> or <KDE>. To set your system-wide default window manager, use «update-alternatives --config x-window-manager». For a guide to available window managers, see http://xwinman.org/
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11:52<scootergrisen>What are gdm, user and classic?
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11:52<scootergrisen>I have them but it only seems one of them is working
11:52<streulma>Hello I get vdpau_chroma filter error: video surface import failure: VDP_STATUS_INVALID_Y_CB_CR_FORMAT
11:52<scootergrisen>or maybe two of them.
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11:53<somiaj>scootergrisen: gdm sounds like your display manager, and user or classic sounds like optiosn for gnome. But not sure as I don't use that.
11:53<streulma>how can I solve ?
11:53<scootergrisen>Is says so when i run gnome-shell --list-modes
11:53<flap_>I suppose i could create a snapshot like say /root and making that one the default? I'm not sure - new to BTRFS
11:54<somiaj>scootergrisen: yea those are gnome options, which dosen't have much to do with windowmanagers. If the wm doesn't add an option to gdm you may ahve to manually tell xorg to use the wm
11:54<sney>I believe all of the window managers packaged for debian can be chosen from the *dm
11:55<scootergrisen>If i install e17 how do i switch to and from it?
11:55<sney>you log out, and then gdm will let you pick it from a drop down
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11:57<somiaj>and if not, you'll have to manually add a sesson to gdm to pick from
11:57<somiaj>is e17 in debian, packages outside of the debian database may not follow debian policy and need more work
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11:58<scootergrisen>Can i switch without logging out?
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11:58<somiaj>with a desktop I woudl say you should logout
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11:58<scootergrisen>Then chat closes :(
11:58<somiaj>with antoher wm there are ways to switch, but loging out and back in is better
11:59<somiaj>run it in screen nextime. (:
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11:59<scootergrisen>When i click in top right corner i get 4 round icons for settings and shut down... but i cant find description for the two middle buttons
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12:01<scootergrisen>They have a round arrow and a lock on them
12:01<sney>reboot and lock screen, respectively, probably
12:01<scootergrisen>Is GNOME a window manager?
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12:01<sney>gnome is a desktop environment, which includes a window manager as one of its components
12:02<somiaj>scootergrisen: no gnome is a desktop (it includes a wm but also includes a lot more software that is all itnegrated as well)
12:02<scootergrisen>So what are the window manager called im using?
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12:02<sney>I believe it is called mutter
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12:04<scootergrisen>When i login the little gear to change window manager or what ever it is is sometimes hidden. Maybe its a bug?
12:05<sney>maybe
12:05<scootergrisen>It is set to "GNOME classic" by default
12:06<grove>And if you want to try out another wm with gnome, you'll have to find the setting in gnome (and I don't use gnome, so I have no idea where to find it)
12:07<scootergrisen>there is also GNOME on Wayland and just "GNOME". I have tried switching before to one of them but one of them did not work
12:07<scootergrisen>I will try and switch to enlightment now... cross fingers
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12:09<Angelitroll>hola
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12:09<scootergrisen>Hmm no change. Guess i have to really log out first
12:09<Angelitroll>putas maricas
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12:11<scootergrisen>Are there some command i can write to know what window manager im using?
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12:32<zeta>scootergrisen: wmctrl can do it if you have it installed
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12:40<scootergrisen>I dont have. Are there not a built-in way to show it?
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12:43<scootergrisen>It says my window manager is called GNOME Shell
12:43-!-kenoby [~kenoby@host253-17-dynamic.248-95-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #debian
12:43<scootergrisen>So what are the part called "classic"?
12:43<scootergrisen>When i login i can select "GNOME classic"
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12:44<scootergrisen>Is it not strange to call a window manager a shell? Is a shell not something that does not have a GUI?
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12:46<danielsh>a "shell" also means a program you login to and launch other programs from
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12:48<rabid_kujo>Hello, i need some help about internals of apt. When i installed package from .deb file, #dpkg -i collectd.deb, it's installed to /opt/collectd, when i do #apt-get remove collectd it's removes /opt fully, nothong interesting in strace what'si need to do?
12:49<rabid_kujo># dpkg -c collectd-0.5.5-monserver-mccme.deb : /opt /opt/collectd
12:49<rabid_kujo>after apt-get remove collectd, /opt completely removes
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12:50<rabid_kujo>from /
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12:51<sney>rabid_kujo: that sounds like a problem with that package specifically, debian packages can execute scripts on both install and remove
12:52<danielsh>perhaps base-files should register the path /opt, like it registers /home and a few others?
12:52<rabid_kujo>sney, yes but into /var/lib/dpkg/info/*.{preinst,postrm,prerm} nothing about rmdir
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12:53<danielsh>I'm guessing /opt was removed because it belonged to no package except that (third party) collectd package.
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12:53<rabid_kujo>danielsh, wow!!!
12:53<sney>sounds likely
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12:53<danielsh>% dpkg -S /opt
12:53<danielsh>dpkg-query: no path found matching pattern /opt
12:53<danielsh>^ on stable
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12:58<rabid_kujo>Removing collectd...
12:58<rabid_kujo>dpkg: warning: while removing collectd, directory '/opt' not empty so not removed
12:58<dpkg>rabid_kujo: That isn't enough detail, post the whole output to a pastebin (/msg dpkg pastebin).
12:58<rabid_kujo>danielsh, looks like
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12:59<danielsh>rabid_kujo, at this point I wonder whether you should file a bug report about tis.
12:59<danielsh>this*
13:00<rabid_kujo>danielsh, nope, okay i try to this
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13:03<rabid_kujo>whois dpkg
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13:08<blast007>rabid_kujo: where are you getting that collectd deb file from?
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13:09<rabid_kujo>blast007, i'm do this by buildserver:~ dpkg --build /opt/collectd
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13:10<blast007>what package sources are you building from and why?
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13:10<blast007>to clarify, I mean, where are the package sources coming from?
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13:13<rabid_kujo>blast007, souces from http://collectd.org
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13:14<blast007>is there a reason you can't just use the release that's already in debian?
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13:14<rabid_kujo>blast007, ls /usr/src/collectd-5.5.0.tar.bz2, yes, readon is very old version and many run-time deps as cuos and sane)
13:14<rabid_kujo>cups*
13:15-!-nick6563 [~NICK12312@234.sub-70-198-195.myvzw.com] has quit []
13:17<rabid_kujo>many of this deps: # COLLECTD_PLUGINS="aggregation apache apcups ascent battery bind ceph cgroups conntrack contextswitch cpu cpufreq csv curl curl_json curl_xml dbi df disk dns drbd email entropy ethstat exec fhcount filecount fscache gmond hddtemp interface ipc ipmi iptables irq java libvirt load log_logstash logfile lvm madwifi match_empty_counter match_hashed match_regex match_timediff match_value mbmon md memcachec memcached memory
13:17<rabid_kujo>multimeter mysql netlink network nfs nginx notify_desktop notify_email ntpd numa nut olsrd onewire openldap openvpn oracle perl ping postgresql powerdns processes protocols python redis routeros rrdcached rrdtool sensors serial smart snmp statsd swap syslog table tail target_notification target_replace target_scale target_set tcpconns teamspeak2 ted thermal threshold tokyotyrant turbostat unixsock uptime users uuid varnish virt vmem
13:17<rabid_kujo>vserver wireless write_graphite write_http write_log write_mongodb write_redis write_sensu write_tsdb zfs_arc zookeeper"
13:17<rabid_kujo>sorry
13:17<blast007>apcupsd, you mean? that's for APC UPS, not printers
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13:18<rabid_kujo>blast007, no, i mean https://bpaste.net/show/e8aae92a1eaa
13:18<blast007>guess I already have that installed
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13:19<jmcnaught>rabid_kujo: did you try installing it with --no-install-recommends?
13:20<blast007>you can probably just tell aptitude to not install suggested packages for that install. Most of them are suggested, not required. And there's also 5.5.1 in jessie-backports.
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13:21<rabid_kujo>jmcnaught, wooooow!
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13:23<rabid_kujo>blast007, Recommends: libc6 (>= 2.7) what if it be less version?
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13:23<blast007>are you not running Jessie?
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13:27<rabid_kujo>blast007, root@ymir:~# cat /etc/debian_version
13:27<rabid_kujo>7.9
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13:27<rabid_kujo>Linux ymir 3.2.0-4-amd64 #1 SMP Debian 3.2.68-1+deb7u4 x86_64 GNU/Linux
13:27<rabid_kujo>whezee
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13:33<blast007>so you're running oldstable, and complaining about it having really old versions? :)
13:35<rabid_kujo>blast007, root@ymir:~# apt-cache show collectd
13:35<rabid_kujo>Package: collectd
13:35<rabid_kujo>Version: 5.1.0-3
13:35<rabid_kujo>eix collectd
13:35<rabid_kujo>(~)5.4.1-r2 (~)5.5.0
13:36<blast007>if your system was running Jessie (which has been out for almost a year), you'd have 5.4.1
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13:36<rabid_kujo>blast007, jessie is debian8?)
13:36<blast007>yes
13:36<rabid_kujo>blast007, nonono systemd
13:36<rabid_kujo>blast007, +new c++abi
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13:38<blast007>well then, have fun
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13:39<rabid_kujo>blast007, but why is /opt deleted?
13:39<rabid_kujo>blast007, is there way to debug it?
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13:40<Comte0>hi, I have some trouble with a debian package. Package spip 3.0.22-1 fixes a critical security bug, but hasn't been migrated to jessie. Is there a procedure for migrating security fixes to jessie ?
13:40<blast007>you'll have to ask the collectd developers that as you're not using debian packages
13:41<blast007>Comte0: in case there was confusion with my message, that was directed to rabid_kujo, not you :)
13:41<Comte0>blast007: no problem :)
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13:43<rabid_kujo>blast007, okay, i want to build my own package, what;s wrong with it?
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13:43<blast007>rabid_kujo: we don't know how upstream handles their build process, so you'll have to ask them
13:44<blast007>rabid_kujo: official debian packages do not install anything into /opt
13:44<rabid_kujo>blast007, hehehe)
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13:48<rabid_kujo>blast007, ipromise for danielsh to mail filebug :)
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13:50<somiaj>Comte0: https://security-tracker.debian.org/tracker/ -- you can track down issues by CVE or package and see what the status is in the various debian versions
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13:53<Comte0>somiaj: https://security-tracker.debian.org/tracker/TEMP-0000000-AE2F6C and https://security-tracker.debian.org/tracker/TEMP-0000000-D84C19 show that spip is vulnerable, which I already knew. The trouble is to get the fix in stable, since it's already in sid and testing
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13:54<vl88>hi all! help with the installation of drivers on the AMD / ATI Park [Mobility Radeon HD 5430/5450/5470.
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13:58<danielsh>rabid_kujo, you can report a bug by running 'reportbug'. I don't know whether my suggestion (to make base-files register /opt) would be accepted, though.
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14:41<vitaerk>hi, how long is debian_8.3 supported?
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14:47<pjotter>I just installed Debian Jesse 8.3 but the resolution is too low for my monitor. It only goes to 1600x1900 but my monitor is 1920x1200. Searching the web only resulted in sollution that didn;t work. Does anyknow how I can get this fixed?
14:48<pjotter>1600x1900 should be 1600x1200
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14:49<sney>pjotter: if you run 'xrandr' in a terminal with no arguments, does it list 1900x1200 as an available mode?
14:50<sney>1920x1200 I mean
14:50<pjotter>no
14:50<vitaerk>pjotter: maybe you need another driver
14:50<sney>ok, what video card do you have and what driver are you using
14:50<pjotter>Tt's a fresh install so just the default driver
14:50<sney>and what gpu...
14:50<pjotter>one moment..
14:51<sney>lspci -nn |grep -i vga <- do this
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14:52<pjotter>It' an ATI Radeon HD 3200
14:53<sney>ok, you have 2 options
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14:53<towo`>i see only one
14:53<towo`>installing firmware-linux-nonfree
14:53<sney>the driver you are using now can have more features enabled by installing firmware-linux-nonfree
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14:53<sney>this is what we recommend
14:54<pjotter>Ok. So what's the other option?
14:54<sney>ah, the other option doesn't apply for your gpu unfortunately
14:54<pjotter>ok
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14:55<pjotter>I also use Xubuntu here (dualboot). Xubuntu doesn;t seem to have any problem with the monitor. So, I'm guessing that Debian should be able to (somehow) detect my monitor and use the proper resolution?
14:56<sney>this is the functionality that the firmware package will enable
14:56<pjotter>So I just install firmware-linux-nonfree?
14:56<sney>ubuntu includes those firmware files by default because they do not have the same policy regarding non-free driver components
14:56<sney>yes
14:56<pjotter>Ah, I see.
14:57<pjotter>So, basically, under the hood, Xubuntu is using a non-free video driver?
14:57<towo`>no
14:57<sney>it's mixed. the driver does work without the non-free components
14:57<towo`>in comes with the firware included
14:57<sney>but as you saw yourself, it sometimes doesn't work all the way
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14:58<pjotter>Ok. Thanks a lot. I have to log out and boot to Debian and will try it. Hopefully I will pop up again from Debian :) Thanks again!
14:58<sney>np
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15:13<pjotter>Alrighty. Back again.. this time on Debian
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15:14<rabid_kujo>danielsh, ookay so think, i could to try to parse /opt related as adobe-flashplayer
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15:15<pjotter>It worked btw :) 1920x1200 in all it's glory
15:15<sney>!next
15:15<dpkg>Another happy customer leaves the building.
15:15<pjotter>Were just getting started here. NOw I have to figure out how to manage two soundcards ;)
15:15<danielsh>rabid_kujo, ?
15:16<sney>augh, sound
15:16<pjotter>I'm going to install pavucontrol for that
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15:22<smokeysea>I am facing intel display issue; kernel oops
15:22<smokeysea>http://ix.io/sa9
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15:23<pjotter>I see Debian XFCE has a volumeknob I can add to the panel. But is it possible to have two of those knobs. Each one configured to a diffrent soundcard? That would be awsome.
15:23<smokeysea>On Debian GNU/Linux 8 \n \l
15:23<smokeysea>Am I on right channel?
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15:23<sney>I think the xfce panel lets you add multiples of a single widget, pjotter, but try it and see
15:23<sney>smokeysea: yews
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15:23<pjotter>sney: I tried but I can add it only once.
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15:24<smokeysea>sney: thanks
15:24<sney>pjotter: #xfce on freenode might have an idea.
15:24<pjotter>I'm guessing that this kind of stuff is hardcoded in the panelplugins?
15:24<pjotter>Good idea. I'll try that
15:25<sney>smokeysea: can you describe your environment in more detail and what led up to this issue?
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15:25<pjotter>I can add an alsa volume knob and configure that one to the other soundcard. That way I can have two volumeknobs. Would be better if they were the same app though.
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15:26<rabid_kujo>danielsh, you're right there is no another way to install software to /opt on debian
15:26<sney>use of /opt is discouraged afaik
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15:27<rabid_kujo>danielsh, on gentoo i have /optrelated softeare like flashplugin-nonfree
15:27<rabid_kujo>sney, so what about FHS?
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15:28<awal>pjotter, try adding the main xfce widget and another package for control sound (pasystray, volumeicon-alsa, volti, qasmixer...). I believe you can't add the same xfce4 widget twice
15:28<sney>rabid_kujo: discouraged by debian, that is. you may be interested in looking at the 'stow' package
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15:29<sney>!tell rabid_kujo about stow
15:29<pjotter>awal: What's the "main xfce widget"?
15:30<awal>pjotter, for control system sound?
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15:30<danielsh>rabid_kujo, the bug would be valid regardless of whether or not official debian packages use /opt :)
15:30<pjotter>I just installed volumeicon-alsa. That adds another volumebutton to the panel. So, that could work.
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15:31<jmcnaught>rabid_kujo: why don't you just upgrade to jessie, and then use the collectd from jessie-backports? It seems silly to put more work into a wheezy system that you'll have to worry about when it's time to upgrade
15:31<pjotter>awal: Where would that be located on a clean install? I couldn;t find any volumecontrols by default.
15:31<awal>I'm not in xfce session right now but the xfce4 volume control package is ' xfce4-plugin-pulseaudio'
15:31<awal>that's what i use
15:31<jmcnaught>rabid_kujo: also.. is dpkg removing /opt if there are files there? it should only get removed if it's empty
15:31<chris_se>especially since wheezy is now nearly 3 years old
15:31<pjotter>awai: Ok. Thanks. ONe moment... I'll try starting that
15:32<chris_se>it's one thing to have an old system around that's wheezy, but for setting up new things?
15:32<rabid_kujo>jmcnaught, i have virtualized cluster and i have'nt any headache with sysvinit and networking and dmesg and old c++ abi c11 gcc, apart systemd.
15:32<awal>pjotter, exuses, it's called "xfce4-pulseaudio-plugin", it cames included with xfce4-goodies
15:33<pjotter>awal: The package isn't on the Debian system and also not available in the repo's. Are you sure this is not an Ubuntu thing instead of Debian?
15:33<awal>pjotter,
15:33<awal>^
15:33<pjotter>awal: Right! :)
15:33<chris_se>you can use jessie with sysvinit, just so you know
15:34<jmcnaught>rabid_kujo: well you can't stay on wheezy forever. if you're using all debian packages you shouldn't have to worry about c++ abi at all when upgrading to jessie. you can still use sysvinit too, or just learn systemd
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15:34<awal>pjotter, probably you can install only that plugin without the whole xfce4-goodies stuff; check recommends and deps
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15:35<awal>but xfce without the goodies isn't really useful
15:35<pjotter>awai: Weird: xfce4-goodies was already installed but there is no xfce4-plugin-pulseaudio
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15:35<awal>xfce4-pulseaudio-plugin , pjotter
15:36<pjotter>ah, right!
15:36<rabid_kujo>jmcnaught, i have some time before end of life of wheezy, one way: using self-made distribution like cirros linux)
15:36<awal>not sure if is part of xfce4-goodies or a separate package, pjotter
15:36<pjotter>awal: I'm sorry. It's just not there. No "xfce4-pulseaudio-plugin"
15:37<pjotter>I tried installing it seperately.. no luck either.
15:37<awal>,v xfce4-pulseaudio-plugin
15:37<judd>Package: xfce4-pulseaudio-plugin on amd64 -- sid: 0.2.4-1; stretch: 0.2.4-1
15:38<pjotter>I;m on Jessie 8.3 btw
15:38<chris_se>rabid_kujo, <chris_se> you can use jessie with sysvinit, just so you know
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15:38<chris_se>and unless something extreme happens between now and november, that will still hold true for stretch
15:38<rabid_kujo>chris_se, did you mean debuan?
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15:38<chris_se>no, plain debian jessie
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15:39<jmcnaught>rabid_kujo: devuan is kinda silly considering jessie still has sysvinit as an option. systemd is just the default.
15:40<rabid_kujo>chris_se, wonderful! could you give me a right direction?
15:40<awal>pjotter, hm, I thought I 'm in debian-next, excuses. . try xfce4-volumed
15:40<chris_se>rabid_kujo, just install the sysvinit-core package
15:40<chris_se>that will remove systemd-sysv and your init system (PID 1) will be sysvint + initscripts
15:40-!-tuxampol [~Mylin@2001:a61:428c:c201:223:cdff:fec0:bb2f] has joined #debian
15:40<rabid_kujo>chris_se, fantastic!
15:40<pjotter>awal: Yes, that's the default volume plugin.
15:40<awal>pjotter, xfce4-volumed and xfce4-mixer
15:41<chris_se>if you want to run a desktop system, then you'll most likely need systemd-logind (which is part of the systemd package), but the systemd binary will not run
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15:41<awal>pjotter, probably what you miss is xfce4-mixer
15:41<chris_se>for server/embedded systems, you won't need to install the systemd package if you're running sysvinit on jessie
15:42<rabid_kujo>chris_se, really cow-power
15:42<chris_se>cow-power?
15:43<awal>,v xfce4-mixer
15:43<judd>Package: xfce4-mixer on amd64 -- squeeze: 4.6.1-2+b1; wheezy: 4.8.0-3+b1; jessie: 4.10.0-3; experimental: 4.11.0-1+b1
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15:44<pjotter>awal: Ok, I got xfce4-mixer now. But this is just an app. Not really a volumecontrol-icon thingy for the panel.
15:44<chris_se>jmcnaught, devuan is double kinda silly because they claim to be for "freedom" but they don't offer the freedom to run systemd - while debian proper supports multiple init systems ;)
15:44-!-T0rch [~T0rch@0001cbdf.user.oftc.net] has joined #debian
15:44<chris_se>but oh well, it's better people work on software than troll mailing lists
15:44<Juest>isnt having multiple initd kinda dangerous? :(
15:45<chris_se>Juest, they aren't run at the same time, if that's what you mean ;)
15:45<rabid_kujo>chris_se, apt-get --help | grep -i cow
15:46<Juest>chris_se: but they live together without running simultaneously?
15:46<chris_se>you can install either one, yes
15:46<pjotter>awal: THanks for all the help. I'm already greatly helped by this. I'll ask the people on #xfce whether they know if I can start multiple instances of a panel plugin.
15:46-!-Corey84 [~Corey84@198.24.30.112] has joined #debian
15:46<awal>pjotter, after installing xfce4-mixer, you dont see any volume control widget in your panel stuff?
15:46<shawn>debian standard, root password?
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15:46<pjotter>awal: No. Maybe I should restart?
15:47<awal>maybe
15:47-!-Corey84 is now known as Guest7851
15:47<chris_se>Juest, wheezy already came with optional systemd v44, but while that kinda worked somehow, I wouldn't recommed it, because back then it wasn't integrated as well
15:47<awal>just log out from xfce session and log in again
15:47<rabid_kujo>apt-get moo
15:47<shawn>ah, username user pw live
15:47<pjotter>I can manually start xfce4-mixer. But there is no icon on the panel or in the panel tray or something like that.
15:48<awal>pjotter, right clic in xfce4 panel, add...
15:48<shawn>wow, sorta suprised standard live cd doesnt have debootstrap
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15:49<chris_se>rabid_kujo, ah ok, didn't immediately get the reference
15:49<smokeysea>how can I see the bootlog
15:49<smokeysea>?
15:49<pjotter>awal: OK, now I understand. There is an icon on the panel that now has an option to start xfce4-mixer.
15:49<chris_se>smokeysea, /var/log/syslog - or if you're just interested in kernel messages: the command dmesg
15:50<chris_se>if you're running systemd there's also the command journalctl
15:50<smokeysea>chris_se: thanks
15:50<pjotter>awal: I need to reboot now
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15:51<smokeysea>chris_se: I am on Debian 8 so is journalctl optional?
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15:52<chris_se>smokeysea, if you have a default Debian 8 install, journalctl will be included (and work), but if you switch away from systemd as init system it will be removed or not work
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15:53<jmcnaught>smokeysea: by default in Debian journald is not persistent, see /usr/share/doc/systemd/README.Debian if you want it to persist
15:53<smokeysea>chris_se: ok. Actually without sudo journalctl returns empty message
15:53<chris_se>most people that switch away from systemd don't want journald/journalctl anyway, so they won't be surprised if it doesn't work
15:54<chris_se>smokeysea, you have to be either in the group adm or in the group systemd-journald to be able to read messages as a normal user
15:54<smokeysea>chris_se: :d
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15:54<smokeysea>chris_se: got it.
15:54<smokeysea>chris_se: thanks
15:54<chris_se>(and you need to re-login if you change your group membership)
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15:54<chris_se>and read what jmcnaught pointed you to about persistent journal if you're interested in that
15:55*jmcnaught loves journalctl
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15:56<chris_se>also: all journal messages do get forwarded to normal syslog, so they should appear in the regular logfiles (/var/log/syslog, /var/log/debug, ...) that you already know from previous debian versions
15:56<chris_se>jmcnaught, yes, it's really great to do journalctl -u mysql and see all messages just pertaining to mysql
15:56-!-pjotter [~pjotter@2001:981:9c1d:1:e539:aa0f:ec26:6af5] has joined #debian
15:57<smokeysea>chris_se: I am trying to fix the issue of lvm which I encountered while booting. Mainly the debian image is dd-ed from other working machine and not all of its vg exist on my machine
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15:57<smokeysea>chris_se: http://ix.io/sb4
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15:58<chris_se>smokeysea, it can't find /dev/mapper/vg-yap at that stage in boot
15:59<smokeysea>chris_se: it doesnt exit. But I trying to get rid of this check or vg
15:59<chris_se>since you appear to be using encryption and LVM, you need to explain your setup a bit before we can make sense of it
15:59<chris_se>ah, look at /etc/crypttab
15:59<chris_se>perhaps there's still an entry there for it
15:59<chris_se>or /etc/fstab
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16:00<smokeysea>I greped entire /etc and yap occurences were at fstab and lvm/archive/. fstab I commeted out.
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16:00<smokeysea>may be lvm/archive/. needs to be fixed
16:01<smokeysea>?
16:01<smokeysea>chris_se: there was one entry in /etc/crypttab
16:01<smokeysea>commented that out
16:01<smokeysea>thanks
16:01<smokeysea>lets see if it gives error next time.
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16:02*smokeysea reading https://snowdrift.coop/p/snowdrift/w/en/mechanism
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16:20<vortek>i cant view dvd videos. i hear the sound but see no video, is there a codec i need to install?
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16:22<chris_se>https://wiki.debian.org/CDDVD#Video_DVD
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16:27<vortek>ohnm its a bug in vlc
16:27<chris_se>Which version? I didn't have any trouble with playing DVDs with Jessie's VLC version.
16:27<vortek>testing
16:28<chris_se>(or is it just your specific DVD that triggers the bug?)
16:28<vortek>it did it with a few
16:28<vortek>i found something on the web complaining bout it
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16:28<chris_se>is there a Debian bug report for it? if not, please report it and reference the person complaining on the web about it => that way it'll hopefully be fixed in stretch
16:29<vortek>http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1389210
16:29<vortek>no just ubuntu users having problem im having
16:31<Sebastinas>vortek: Do you have libvdpau-va-gl1 installed and a non-nvidia card?
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16:32<vortek>nvidia optimus
16:33<vortek>and yes its installed
16:33<Sebastinas>Try to remove it.
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16:33<Sebastinas>If that fixes it, wait for -5 which should be in stretch in 5 days.
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16:34<vortek>ok i rienstall
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16:38<vortek>didnt work
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16:39<Sebastinas>Then we'd need a log from vlc -vvv
16:39<vortek>ok i use dragon player for now then i wait for 5 days for it
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18:28<PenGui>is there a way to create special users
18:29<chris_se>what do you mean "specail users"?
18:29<PenGui>by special i mean one (user) that cannot login or like the var.www kind of user
18:30<PenGui>if that makes sense
18:30<chris_se>ah, you mean a system user
18:30<chris_se>specify --system when calling adduser
18:30-!-namix [~namix@0001cbff.user.oftc.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
18:30<chris_se>also, --disabled-login might be useful
18:31<Juest>PenGui: these are called service users btw
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18:32<PenGui>Juest: ah i see thanks, chris_se: so like adduser --system --disabled-login test?
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18:33<chris_se>yes, basically
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18:33<PenGui>chris_se: thank you!
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18:33<chris_se>I just wouldn't call a user test, that would cause lots of confusion
18:33<chris_se>man adduser to see what other options there are
18:33<PenGui>i know the test was a placeholder
18:34<PenGui>chris_se: yeah if only i did that at the start :) thanks again
18:34<chris_se>note that system users are by default placed in the nogroup group - you might want to specify --group as well (adduser --system --disabled-login --group $user) so that a group with the same name is also created (but that depends on your use case)
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18:35<PenGui>chris_se: noted ^__^ ty
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19:02<R4F_Debian>Hi all, I used backports for iceweasel, in order to get it update to latest version, but when I updated Debian now through apt-get update && apt-get dist-upgrade && apt-get upgrade, I got the following reply:
19:03<R4F_Debian>W: Failed to fetch http://mozilla.debian.net/dists/jessie-backports/Release Unable to find expected entry 'iceweasel-release/binary-amd64/Packages' in Release file (Wrong sources.list entry or malformed file)
19:04<jmcnaught>R4F_Debian: hey take a look at http://mozilla.debian.net/ , Iceweasel has been renamed back to Firefox, you'll need to replace/modify your old mozilla.d.n line so it matches the new recommendation on that page
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19:05<jmcnaught>R4F_Debian: also note that if you use tab groups this feature is being removed in firefox 45, but there is an add-on that will migrate your existing tab groups.
19:05<R4F_Debian>Hi jmcnaught, nice to see you again ! Thanks, Dear Debian Warrior, I will take a look on it. Is that the reason I get errors in update ?
19:06<jmcnaught>R4F_Debian: i'm actually fixing this myself right now, we can do it together :)
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19:07<R4F_Debian>Great, jmcnaught. let'us go on ! Currently line in sources.list is deb http://mozilla.debian.net/ jessie-backports iceweasel-release
19:07<Marillion>R4F_Debian, jmcnaught : https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=815006
19:07<judd>Bug http://bugs.debian.org/815006 in iceweasel (open): «Renaming Iceweasel to Firefox»; severity: normal; opened: 2016-02-17; last modified: 2016-03-06.
19:07<jmcnaught>R4F_Debian: according to the site you just need to change that last bit to firefox-release
19:08<jmcnaught>R4F_Debian: as a precautionary step i'm going to make a backup of my ~/.mozilla
19:08<R4F_Debian>so, it becomes: deb http://mozilla.debian.net/ jessie-backports firefox-release ?
19:08-!-Brigo [~Brigo@164.11.60.178.dynamic.reverse-mundo-r.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
19:08<R4F_Debian>and update ?
19:09<R4F_Debian>Oh, Marillion, Thanks !
19:09<R4F_Debian>jmcnaught, is that the procedure ?
19:10<jmcnaught>R4F_Debian: i'm still looking at whether the iceweasel package will pull in firefox package or not
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19:10<R4F_Debian>I see, I am starting to read link you've passed me:
19:10<R4F_Debian>http://mozilla.debian.net/
19:11<Marillion>useally will that the same name in stretch and backports too
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19:11<Marillion>R4F_Debian: give the maintainer more time
19:11<R4F_Debian>Great, Marilliion, as I read it, it becomes: deb http://mozilla.debian.net/ jessie-backports firefox-release
19:12<R4F_Debian>yes, Marillion, I see, thanks for recomendation
19:12<Marillion>no problem
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19:12<R4F_Debian>Marillion is referred to the Progressive Rock Band ?
19:13<Marillion>R4F_Debian: yes
19:13<R4F_Debian>Great !!!!
19:13<R4F_Debian>I always say: Debian Warriors are the Best !
19:13*Marillion ...since 1987
19:13<R4F_Debian>Really Great !! Like them a lot !
19:14<R4F_Debian>but can't develop dialogue about this here, for it's off-topic, sorry ! But, Congratulations !
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19:18<Marillion>offtopic is not the problem, but it isn't recommend here, to much people follow there
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19:21<jmcnaught>R4F_Debian: i think i'm gonna wait a day or two to see if iceweasel gets updated to 45 in main since it's an ESR release, and decide later if i want to go back to using the mozilla.d.n package
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19:22<R4F_Debian>oh, it's an ESR release ?, what should happen if we get option 'release' for the version ? Sure it's ESR ?
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19:28<iqbal>Lol
19:29<iqbal>cek www.iqbalbirrul.web.id
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19:34<jmcnaught>R4F_Debian: mozilla.d.n has an option for esr, but i'm going to wait a day or two and see what happens to iceweasel in main
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19:36<R4F_Debian>ok jmcnaught, but it's better now excluding the iceweasel backports line ?
19:36<R4F_Debian>is it better to it, since will generate errors during update ?
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19:38<jmcnaught>R4F_Debian: Jessie has been updating Iceweasel in main each time there's a new ESR. mozilla.d.n is for people that don't want to use the ESR. I'm considering sticking with the ESR from main, postponing the decision.
19:39<jmcnaught>R4F_Debian: to answer your question, it seems that mozilla.d.n no longer offers an "iceweasel-release" repo, only a "firefox-release" one, so you need to update sources.list accordingly
19:39<R4F_Debian>I see, so it's prudent for me do as the same as yours
19:39<R4F_Debian>I see, thanks jmcnaught, but I will wait for this also
19:39<chris_se>unfortunately, mozilla.d.n also doesn't provide an iceweasel transitional package (and the standard iceweasel packages divert /usr/bin/firefox)
19:40<chris_se>so if you just add the new mozilla.d.n repository to sources.list, you need to explicitly install the firefox package - and remove the iceweasel package
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19:41<chris_se>also, the firefox package doesn't provide a compatibility symlink for iceweasel
19:41<nevyn>whee.
19:41<nevyn>purge iceweasel install firefox.
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19:43<chris_se>-> I've updated my sources.list to mozilla.d.n w/ firefox-release (instead of iceweasel-release), installed firefox, removed iceweasel, and then did ln -s /usr/bin/firefox /usr/local/bin/iceweasel
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19:44<R4F_Debian>Hi chris_se, Hi nevyn ! I see, a bit busy here, sorry, I wil be back. Thanks !
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19:46<jack>Hey guys, I purchased a roxio vhs to dvd capture device, but the software is for windows, does anyone here know how I can access the capture through linux, VLC is giving me a hard time with it too.
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19:49<alumno>sami
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19:50<bob>Try using Wine, Jack.
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19:51<twb>What does libdrm-intel/jessie-backports give me, that libdrm-intel/jessie doesn't?
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19:51<twb>Does it make newer GPUs work, where they previously didn't work at all?
19:52<sney>I'm assuming the changelog didn't enlighten you so I'm going to guess it's compatibility with some other drm/intel thing in backports
19:52<twb>It just says "new upstream" or so
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19:53<twb>It's the same source package (libdrm) for all GPUs, so maybe the intel part is not important, and it was only done for silly nvidia cards
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19:56<jack>bob, is wine gui?
19:57-!-Nabuco [~Nabuco@190.205.191.76] has quit []
19:57<bob>Yes
19:57<twb>jack: yes, wine is a clone of the "win32" GUI toolkit library from Windows.
19:57<bob>^
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19:59<bob>Now I have a question: The minimal cd doesn't seem to work. Is this probably because I am using Nvidia and it doesn't install Nouvaeu by default?
20:00<chris_se>twb, libdrm-intel/jessie-backports will support newer GPUs, e.g. Skylake
20:00<twb>chris_se: thanks
20:01<chris_se>if you have up to a desktop Haswell, you typically don't need backports (but it doesn't hurt from my experiences), if you have newer (Skylake), you need a kernel from backports + xserver-xorg-video-intel from backports
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20:01<chris_se>libdrm-intel/jessie-backports may be optional, I don't remember precisely
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20:01<twb>Well the way it works is boss buys 500 new desktops
20:01<twb>THEN I find out that they don't work with the current OS build
20:02<chris_se>also, some newer Haswell chipsets may need backports as well (especially some mobile ones) - but my Haswell desktop didn't need it (I'm running backports now for unrelated reasons)
20:02<twb>That's why I'm running on jessie despite it being the initial systemd release I wanted to avoid :///
20:02<chris_se>well, they do work, but if you have skylake, jessie defaults to VESA ;-)
20:02-!-x2xx3x [~x2x@d83-187-160-178.cust.tele2.at] has joined #debian
20:02<bob>Has Wheezy been removed from the archives? I couldn't find it in there.
20:02-!-x2xx3x [~x2x@d83-187-160-178.cust.tele2.at] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20:03<sney>!wheezy
20:03<dpkg>Wheezy is the codename for the current <oldstable> release, Debian 7.0, released on 2013-05-04: https://www.debian.org/News/2013/20130504 . Wheezy is the rubber toy penguin with a red bow tie. See https://wiki.debian.org/DebianWheezy and ask me about <install wheezy> <wheezy release notes> <squeeze->wheezy>. Currently <7.9>.
20:03<sney>well, it's oldstable so it's just a different url
20:03<chris_se>(VESA means: only a single monitor, only up to 1920x1200, no resolution changes a la RandR, no acceleration)
20:03<twb>chris_se: yeah with the last hw bump most stuff Just Worked, except watching handegg over IPTV, which had really bad tearing
20:03<twb>But "watch handegg" wasn't one of our tests, so I didn't notice until we'd already shipped
20:04<bob>sney: thank you
20:04<chris_se>sney, I wouldn't recommend placing "oldstable" or "stable" or something like that in your sources.list - just use "wheezy" or "jessie" explicitly - that way you don't get surprises when there's a new release (testing is different, that makes sense to track with alias instead of code name)
20:04<sney>chris_se: you don't need to tell me that, man
20:04<twb>I only tested office/web and whatever was on TV at the time - so if it was e.g. an interview, the tearing wasn't noticable
20:04<twb>Aaaaanyway
20:05<twb>Hang on... I'm already pre-emptively installing xserver-xorg-video-intel from backports.
20:05<chris_se>twb, just use a backported kernel + backported driver + backported libdrm - although I did notice some graphics errors when scrolling up in iceweasel with skylake
20:05<twb>Maybe that pulls in libdrm anyway
20:05<twb>*backported libdrm
20:06<bob>So is the live cd for debian supposed to ask you for a password in shell?
20:06<twb>chris_se: can't update the kernel yet due to [REDACTED] breaking live-boot on newer kernels
20:06<twb>bob: depends
20:06<twb>bob: try user 'debian' password 'live'
20:07<bob>twb: ok, thanks
20:07<chris_se>without backports kernel you don't get modesetting on skylake and intel xorg driver is useless (requires kernel modesetting)
20:07<twb>Okey dokey
20:07<twb>I've been meaning to replace live-boot with an in-house rewrite anyways, maybe that will give me the excuse I need
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20:08<chris_se>so if you have stock jessie kernel + backported intel driver, that will work on older hardware (e.g. haswell), but on skylake you'll still get VESA (so you'll see a picture, but with aforementioned limitations)
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20:09<chris_se>rule of thumb: if the kernel switches into higher resolution already on the text console: you won't get VESA; if the kernel keeps text console at 80x25, you will get VESA
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20:11<Juest>Why?
20:12-!-waz [~waz@201.219.50.125] has quit []
20:12<bob>Is Jessie the go to choice for a web server?
20:12-!-gdot2 [~gdot@pD9FEC1C6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #debian
20:12<Juest>Probably :)
20:12<Juest>since its stable
20:13<twb>bob: if you have to ask, it probably doesn't matter which distro
20:13<chris_se>bob, if you look at debian versions: I would definitely recommend Jessie
20:13<chris_se>for example, Apache in wheezy doesn't support OCSP stapling for SSL
20:14*twb mutters TOFU under breath
20:14<twb>Stupid x.509 cartel
20:14-!-Texou [~Texou@000178ec.user.oftc.net] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 1.4]
20:14<chris_se>twb, let's encrypt?
20:14<twb>AFAICT that's still just playing the cartel's game
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20:15<chris_se>it's not a cartel if you don't have to pay the racket ;)
20:15<twb>The whole idea that you can trust Mozilla or Google to tell everyone in the world who is trustworthy, is insane
20:15-!-acald3ron [~acald3ron@189.202.86.75.cable.dyn.cableonline.com.mx] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20:16<twb>The price fixing aspect is just one perverse outcome
20:16-!-acald3ron [~acald3ron@189.202.86.75.cable.dyn.cableonline.com.mx] has joined #debian
20:16<bob>I like your guys answers :) thank you
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20:17<chris_se>I don't disagree here in principle, but unless you develop a better solution that's actually implemented by people, for now we'll have to stick with it
20:17<chris_se>(also: HKPK does provide some help against some design issues w/ the current PKI and is TOFU)
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20:19<bob>What is the best Cipher to use for OVPN?
20:19-!-mattcen [~mattcen@c114-77-94-1.sunsh1.vic.optusnet.com.au] has joined #debian
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20:20<chris_se>I would stick with the default (BF-CBC) unless you know what you are doing
20:20<twb>chris_se: yeah I grant that there are serious issues with TOFU in practice
20:21<twb>At least for the use case of "I can explain it to my grandma"
20:21<chris_se>which is why HKPK + OCSP stapling solves a lot of issues with current PKI (not perfect, far from it, but better than nothing)
20:22<twb>Hum, OK. Last time I looked at OCSP it seemed to be more lose than win, but that was a looong time ago
20:22<twb>probably I'm just mixed up
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20:23<bob>You guys think I stand a chance hosting my own web service from home and handling all the security myself?
20:23<twb>bob: do you plan to use PHP?
20:23<chris_se>bob, of course you can use a standard recommended TLS cipher - I just looked it up, "Applied Crypto Hardening" <https://bettercrypto.org/> recommends AES-256-CBC
20:23<bob>Yes
20:23<twb>bob: then you're screwed
20:23<bob>Why?
20:24<twb>"historically, about 30% of all vulnerabilities listed since 1996 are linked to PHP."
20:24<chris_se>(although why they don't recommend AES-256-CBC-HMAC-SHA1 I don't grok, I would expect HMAC authentication to be superior to no authentication...)
20:24<bob>I know how to sanitize variables, SQL injection etc.
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20:25<chris_se>ah, OpenVPN does HMAC anyway separately, and they recommend SHA384 for that
20:25-!-krabador [~krabador@000208ac.user.oftc.net] has quit [Quit: Take The Time]
20:25<sney>bob: twb is a little more paranoid than most. from a technical standpoint it's certainly doable
20:25<chris_se>twb, OCSP is stupid. OCSP stapling is good
20:25<twb>chris_se: ahhhh
20:26-!-mr_flea [~Qiasfah@76GAADIDX.tor-irc.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit []
20:26<chris_se>OCSP stapling: server acquires OCSP response from CA in advance (and caches that) and staples that to the TLS handshake
20:26-!-krabador [~krabador@000208ac.user.oftc.net] has joined #debian
20:26<bob>What language would you recommend I write software in then? Is Node.js secure?
20:26<sney>bob: though some ISPs filter incoming http on home connections
20:26<bob>or web app's I mean
20:26<sney>python is popular these days
20:27<bob>I like python, PHP is so hard to look at
20:27<chris_se>so that the browser can verify OCSP while at the same time doesn't have to contact the CA separately - hence: privacy issues don't occur (the CA doesn't see what sites a client connects to), and if everybody did OCSP stapling, you could actually enable hard-fail (unfortunately, not everybody does yet...)
20:27<chris_se>well, I would argue that Python, PHP and node.js themselves are quite secure, the problem is always the software that's written for those
20:28<bob>I didn't want to use Node.js because I heard it sucks at decrypting SSL
20:28<chris_se>I consider the node.js ecosystem to be currently at a point where PHP was a couple of years ago: I wouldn't recommend it unless you write the stuff using it completely by yourself
20:28-!-Texou [~Texou@000178ec.user.oftc.net] has quit []
20:28<chris_se>PHP has gotten better, depending on what package you use
20:28<R4F_Debian>Bye all !
20:28<chris_se>(I mean the ecosystem)
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20:29<bob>Package?
20:29<chris_se>I mean what software on top of it
20:29-!-acald3ron [~acald3ron@189.202.86.75.cable.dyn.cableonline.com.mx] has joined #debian
20:29<bob>Like Debian?
20:29<chris_se>no, I mean what web application
20:29<bob>Nginx?
20:29<chris_se>so if you take for example ancient phpbb versions (I mean those from 10 years or so ago), those were horrible
20:29<bob>sorry
20:30-!-gomex_ [~gomex@179.181.147.70] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:30<chris_se>or ancient wordpress versions - or some current wordpress plugins
20:30<chris_se>but if you take modern php software that was designed with some security in mind, it's not that bad (you still need to keep it up to date though)
20:30<bob>Yeah can you believe what happened with Mint, I can't believe they used Wordpress
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20:31<chris_se>a significant amount of the world's blogs run wordpress
20:31<bob>Okay, well that's good because I've already written my site in PHP and it would be painful to switch
20:31<chris_se>so if you've written it yourself, you're responsible for the security of it
20:31<chris_se>so you need to make sure that you protect against all the typical web attacks: XSS, CSRF, SQL injection, etc.
20:31-!-LuBuUser [~oftc-webi@cpc14-smal12-2-0-cust125.perr.cable.virginm.net] has joined #debian
20:32<bob>How can I handle DDOS attacks?
20:32<LuBuUser>Hello Guys, I need some help, I am new to linux and using Lubuntu, My ethernet cable is plugged in but it give me error that cable is unpluged, however wireless is connect and working properly, any help?
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20:33<sney>fail2ban, load balancing
20:33<sney>the latter is why people use datacenters
20:33-!-rage [~rage@2a01:e34:ef23:a0b0:221:6aff:fe3f:9b70] has joined #debian
20:33<chris_se>PHP (the interpreter) itself is not worse than most other programs when it comes to implementation bugs - the statement that a lot of security bugs are related to PHP is an indication that there's a ton of bad software in PHP, not that the interpreter is that bad in and by itself
20:33<sney>if you're hosting a public website you may be better off just renting a vps for 5 bucks a month
20:34<bob>LuBuUser: That happened to me once because I deleted some file I wasn't supposed to, perhaps try reinstalling
20:34<chris_se>DDoS? _you_ can't protect against that. you can pay some service provider with experience money to do so for you
20:34<chris_se>(and even that doesn't work 100% of the time)
20:35<LuBuUser>BOB... Infact I reinstalled 4-5 different distros, and problem still exists
20:35<chris_se>fail2ban (with customized configuration) is a good starting point to prevent normal DoS attacks - but a DDoS is designed to saturate your connection bandwidth, so you won't be able to counter that on your end
20:35<LuBuUser><bob> Infact I reinstalled 4-5 different distros, and problem still exists
20:35<bob>Really? Blacklisting Ip's doesn't stop the request from happening?
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20:36<bob>LuBuUser: sounds like a problem with your router. Try connecting directly to your modem
20:36<chris_se>bob, well, the HTTP request it does, but a typical DDoS just produces lots of packets sent to a specific IP - and while you can discard them on a kernel firewall level before they are processed, if they take up your entire downstream bandwidth, you're still screwed
20:37<LuBuUser>@bob the Ethernet works perfectly with my other linux laptop and windows laptop. I tried same cable and it also work perfect with other machines.
20:37<chris_se>if your provider blacklisted an IP before sending the packets through your connection, _that_ would help
20:37<chris_se>but very sophisticated DDoS attacks have been known to overwhelm even some datacenter uplinks
20:39<chris_se>LuBuUser, note that this is a debian channel and LUbuntu is technically a derivative. that said: is your network card even properly detected by the kernel?
20:39<bob>What ratio should I look for when purchasing internet speed? Right now I have 150mbps download and about 15mbps upload. Is this bad for a web server?
20:39<twb>chris_se: actually according to Wikipedia, about 0.3% of all vulnerabilities were caused by the authors of the PHP language itself.
20:40<chris_se>twb, which is 2 orders of magnitude lower than the original statistic you cited ;)
20:40<bob>LuBuUser: sounds like it's your computer's ethernet port. don't know what else to say
20:40<twb>i.e. it's not *just* that PHP is used for a lot of "my first programs"
20:40<LuBuUser><bob> <chris_se> I understand it is debian channel, I cannot find any ubuntu channels thats why i asked here, I will add that the ethernet works for couple of minutes on start of laptop and then it starts giving unplugged error.
20:40<twb>chris_se: granted
20:40-!-jdr292d [~chamex@177.189.127.237] has joined #debian
20:40<chris_se>twb, I'm not saying PHP is great, but it's far from the horror that people make it out to be
20:40<twb>chris_se: also to be fair, PHP vuln rate has been trending downwards lately
20:41<bob>Facebook uses PHP
20:41<bob>don't they?
20:41<chris_se>not anymore, they use an own implementation of it
20:41<twb>chris_se: to my mind, it's like telling your grandma not to use IE. Yes, it's not strictly necessary, and it's not sufficient, but it's a reasonable rule of thumb
20:41<bob>Ah
20:41<LuBuUser>I did messed couple of days ago with ethernet power management option i turned it off but now i do not know the command to turn it off, may be it could be the problem?
20:41<twb>bob: they also have squillions of dollars to spend in reputation management after they get pwned
20:42<chris_se>bob, depends on how much bandwidth you need. if your webserver never serves more than ~ 2 megabytes / second, then 15 mbit upstream should be fine - if not, you need more :)
20:42<twb>bob: also I guess they might spend some of it on preventative maintenance... :P
20:42<bob>If I got pwned, should I tell my users? And would I be considered paranoid to hash their passwords 512 bits long?
20:42<chris_se>twb, well, but PHP as a language itself, even in its worst days, was never even remotely as bad as IE back then
20:43<chris_se>bob, if you just use SHA512 you're not paranoid enough
20:43<chris_se>bob, if you're using PHP, starting with PHP 5.5 (Jessie has 5.6) there's a password hashing mechanism that actually does the right thing for you (see password_hash in the docs)
20:43<twb>If you say so >shrug<
20:43<chris_se>(i.e. salt, multiple iterations to slow down brute forcing)
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20:44<chris_se>twb, if you look at PHP vulnerabilities, many of them were actually in extensions - that would be a bit like saying "Debian has lots of security problems because of all the packages"
20:45<chris_se>if you look at the number of vulnerabilities in default or common installs, the number is quite a bit lower - and the impact was usually not as bad as typical IE security problems
20:45<bob>Lol IE
20:46-!-gavinc [~gavin@barad-dur.carothers.name] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:47<bob>you guys are talking about Internet Explorer right?
20:47<twb>yes
20:47<chris_se>not saying that there wasn't a problem with code quality 10 or so years ago, and especially at that time many language features felt like they were actively designed to prevent you from writing secure code, but I think the reputation is undeserved
20:47-!-gomex_ [~gomex@179.181.147.70] has joined #debian
20:47<chris_se>(at the extent is undeserved)
20:48-!-mode/#debian [+l 739] by debhelper
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20:52<chris_se>bob, http://php.net/password_hash use that if you want to store passwords with PHP - and only use the default algorithm with no special options unless you know what you're doing - and do follow the guidelines outlined in the README at https://github.com/ircmaxell/password_compat
20:53<bob><twb> <chris_se> thank you both for your help
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20:53<bob>So is my 150mbps download useless to me then?
20:54<chris_se>well, your download is the other people's upload
20:54<twb>chris_se: sounds like it would be useful to also put something like assert(php_version >= 5.5.0) into that code, to ensure it won't default to a crap hash
20:54<twb>Although I guess php5 is pretty old by now...
20:54<chris_se>twb, with php < 5.5 it will fail because the function doesn't exist, but there's the compatibility library available at the github address I linked, which implements the same thing in pure PHP for older versions
20:55<twb>Ah OK :_0
20:55<chris_se>note that Jessie has 5.6
20:55<twb>* :-)
20:55-!-ansel [~ansel@ip-109-44-1-8.web.vodafone.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:55<chris_se>although what I really dislike, now that I read the current PHP manual, is that it doesn't properly discuss best practices for doing so... :(
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20:56<chris_se>it doesn't say loud enough "only use the default algorithm unless you really need to do something else"
20:56<bob>I am using PHP 7
20:56<twb>chris_se: file a bug!
20:56<chris_se>yeah, probably should do so
20:56<chris_se>not today though, it's late
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20:57<twb>bob: I don't think you can have PHP7 on jessie
20:57<bob>twb: that's not good
20:57<bob>twb: it's twice as fast :/
20:58<twb>Is speed more important than stability? :-)
20:58<bob>Hehe, sometimes
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20:59<chris_se>I think the Debian PHP maintainers want to provide PHP7 in backports at some point
20:59<chris_se>(if I remember correctly)
20:59<bob>twb: It works on Linux Mint though. Why wouldn't it work on Jessie
21:00<chris_se>but I think they want to work out all the problems in unstable/testing first
21:00<twb>Probably because mint has different priorities
21:00<chris_se>(and I think they need to do a stable update for PHP5 in Jessie first to fix some dependency stuff IIRC)
21:00<bob>Does Nginx work in Jessie?
21:01<twb>sure
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21:01<twb>and nginx already has a backport, if you want to run the latest version
21:02<chris_se>bob, ah: https://lists.alioth.debian.org/pipermail/pkg-php-maint/2016-March/015153.html
21:02<bob>What's up with all this backporting?
21:03<twb>bob: it's because developers insist on the latest shiny toys, and sysadmins hate new things because new code = new bugs
21:03<chris_se>debian stable doesn't get new versions except for very few exceptions
21:03<twb>backports is an attempt at a compromise, so that at least the Shiny New Shit syndrome only affects the packages the developer is actually messing with
21:03-!-durfnap [~oho@2a02:3101:60a:1400:1a3d:a2ff:fe5a:c640] has joined #debian
21:03<twb>(cf. archlinux)
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21:04<bob>makes sense
21:05<twb>If you want EVERYthing to be new, you could also look at testing or unstable
21:05<bob>well, I don't think I'm smart enough to solve the security problems that might arise from using all this new stuff
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21:06<twb>It's vulns all the way down
21:06<chris_se>which is why backports is a very good compromise
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21:08<chris_se>you have to be a bit more mindful of packages from backports when it comes to security (because they might not be updated quite as often), but that is usually only a small list, compared to all packages you are running on your system
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21:10<bob>Would it be safer to use a hosting provider?
21:11<twb>Depends on your threat mode
21:11<twb>*model
21:11<chris_se>depends on the hosting provider
21:11-!-aLLamoox [~aLLamoox@h38n11-oerby-a12.ias.bredband.telia.com] has joined #debian
21:11<ryouma>strange that cats get stuck in trees. http://www.nevadacounty.com/cat-stuck-in-a-tree-if-they-could-come-down-they-would/
21:11<chris_se>there are some really bad hosting providers that don't upgrade often enough that are just waiting to be hacked - and there are others that do a really good job at making sure updates are installed and the configuration is secure
21:12<chris_se>not though that if someone working for your hosting provider has it in for you (e.g. a disgruntled employee of them), you're screwed
21:13<bob>Exactly why I DON'T trust them with my website
21:13<bob>I don't trust anyone but myself
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21:13<twb>Sounds like you're in the wrong business
21:14-!-gavinc [~gavin@barad-dur.carothers.name] has joined #debian
21:14<bob>Why do you say that?
21:14<chris_se>well, if you don't trust Debian Developers, you're also screwed ;-)
21:14<twb>Hard to survive as a dev when you're not naively optimistic, because the naive optimists will undercut you
21:15-!-gavinc [~gavin@barad-dur.carothers.name] has quit []
21:15<bob>Hey, now, that's different. Just like the CA authorities, we all have to trust someone right
21:15<bob>It's usually because we have no choice
21:15<bob>But eliminating as many threats as possible makes sense
21:15<twb>"And I finished the project only 75% over budget!... what's input validation?"
21:16<bob>I don't follow
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21:16<twb>Eh, never mind
21:16-!-Zimmer_Nova [~zimmer@00020bbf.user.oftc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
21:17<chris_se>twb, :)
21:17<bob>Trying to say that I'm going to get pwned anyways?
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21:19<chris_se>no, trying to say that people who are going to get pwned are cheaper and hence will get the contract more often than you
21:19<jmcnaught>bob: my advice is to think of Debian Stable as a platform. Everything in it is safe to build on. For you this means php5.6 and all the php5 modules available as packages
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21:20<bob>Oh, haha, now Iget it
21:20<jmcnaught>bob: there are some caveats though, i suggest reading the part in the jessie release notes about security coverage. nodejs is in debian, but not covered by security for example
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21:24<bob>Okay I still don't get it LOL
21:25<teatime>Security is a subtle art.
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21:26<jmcnaught>bob: the joke above was an impression of a naive optimist developer, excited that they only went 75% over budget, then naively asking "what is input validation?"
21:27<bob>I get that, I do. I just don't get what it has to do with what I said
21:27<twb>be honest, we've all done that
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21:27<twb>>_>;;
21:27-!-SenpaiSilver [~SenpaiSil@lse83-h01-31-38-248-147.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr] has joined #debian
21:27<bob>Lol just forget it sorry
21:27<twb>bob: have you read Reflections on Trusting Trust?
21:27<bob>No
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21:35<bob>Great read
21:35<bob>Do you have more?
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21:53<seneka>hi all. i have problem and ask in #debian-boot (all silent ._.) and in #debian-qa (because bad english (i'm from ukraine) and think is Questions and Answers, when search for channel) -- they say me to going #debian for my questions. so i can tell my trouble-problem here..? *i have 03^46 PM (timezone is +2) and need install debian on samsung 850 pro ssd (with not "stable" distribution version, but some that have 4.4.4 kernel??) to use laptop for learning.
21:53<seneka>plz, if you can, help me now. that my problem in 3 words:
21:53-!-KaliLinuxGR [~KaliLinux@adsl-78.37.6.61.tellas.gr] has joined #debian
21:53<seneka><<i trying to install debian stable on samsung 850 pro ssd. dont work, black screen with blinking "_" and not show any signs of first boot configuring. then i search and see: stable have old (or "stable", teehee) kernel so not installing on ssd with async TRIM (or something like that). so i lurk moar and see what "version 8.3, was released on January 23rd, 2016" and have kernel 3.16.7 then i lurk and go to
21:53<seneka><seneka> https://tracker.debian.org/pkg/linux and see >version: 4.4.4-2 also, i know that samsung 850 pro blacklisted for "asynchronous: TRIM in kernel 4.0.5 so, how can i install debian with 4.0.5 or latest kernel? also, that is proof of samsung 850 pro blacklisting https://git.kernel.org/cgit/linux/kernel/git/torvalds/linux.git/tree/drivers/ata/libata-core.c?id=09c5b4803a80a5451d950d6a539d2eb311dc0fb1#n4238 plz help me, i need working laptop for
21:53<seneka>learning, but
21:53<seneka><seneka> have 03:31 PM>>
21:53-!-seneka was kicked from #debian by debhelper [flood. Please use http://paste.debian.net instead.]
21:54<teatime>*facepalm*
21:54-!-seneka [~seneka@37.57.184.229] has joined #debian
21:54<twb>Was the problem just that TRIM is disabled on that device?
21:54<teatime>welcome back.
21:54<seneka>ou. sorry
21:54-!-namyzarc [~namyzarc@2601:989:4202:f041:3552:33f1:613a:441d] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
21:54<teatime>seneka: I don't think your not-booting problem is related to the SSD.
21:55<teatime>afaik blacklisted SSD's just get TRIM disabled; they should still function.
21:55<twb>seneka: the message you posted -- blacklisted trim -- just means the SSD is a little slower
21:55<twb>seneka: it should still work
21:56-!-roam [~roam@h243.96.141.67.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has joined #debian
21:56<seneka>http://paste.debian.net/plain/415367
21:56<roam>...
21:56<seneka>plz help
21:56<twb>seneka: did the install finish?
21:56-!-AzaToth [~azatoth@h87-96-232-219.dynamic.se.alltele.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
21:56<seneka>no
21:56<seneka>that is the problem
21:57<twb>What is the last step, that worked?
21:57<seneka>before write GRUB i have blackscreen with _
21:57<seneka>after fast reboot
21:59<twb>You installed from DVD?
21:59<seneka>i thing i "know" that need to install not "stable", but "testing" but not know what kernel version it have. i need > 4.0.5
22:00<twb>seneka: I think you are wrong, but we can check :-)
22:00<seneka>i tryed to install from USB with using unetbootin (first, but then read in wiki that "dont use some soft that modified iso"
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22:00<seneka>then i try UUI from thumbdrivelinux site.
22:00<twb>seneka: let us put Debian Testing installer on a USB key, and install that
22:01<twb>You can write .ISO direct to USB key
22:01<twb>You do not need unetbootin
22:01<seneka>then i make with UUI Debian 8.3 -Stable- (in previous i using Stable) live-usb and again
22:02<twb>What is "UUI" ?
22:02<seneka>that soft http://www.pendrivelinux.com/universal-usb-installer-easy-as-1-2-3/
22:03<twb>You do not need that
22:03<roam>dd should work fine
22:03<twb>You can just "cp foo.iso /dev/sdz", to put the Debian Installer .ISO direct on USB key
22:03-!-jova2 [~jova2@138.0.214.106] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
22:04<seneka>>You can write .ISO direct to USB key < how do this right? format to fat32, and..?
22:04<twb>You do not format at all
22:04<twb>The .ISO already has the formatting, to be a USB key
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22:05<twb>seneka: do you already have unix, or only windows?
22:05<seneka>what filesistem need to use on usb key?
22:05<twb>no filesystem
22:05<musca>!hybrid iso
22:05<dpkg>Since the 6.0 "Squeeze" release, Debian installation images for x86 systems - e.g. <netinst>, <CD1>, DVD1 - are hybrid images. These can be written directly to CD or HD Media (e.g. USB thumbdrive) without further preparation. See http://www.debian.org/News/project/2010/14/#hybrid for details. See also <install debian>, <usb install>.
22:05-!-aLLamoox [~aLLamoox@h38n11-oerby-a12.ias.bredband.telia.com] has joined #debian
22:05<twb>The .iso is already the filesystem, it must be written direct
22:05<seneka>http://i.imgur.com/ZJ0v934.png
22:05<twb>I think the problem is, you are on Windows, yes?
22:06<twb>So you do not have "dd"
22:06<seneka>fedora
22:06<twb>Ah, you have linux already
22:06<twb>This is good
22:06<seneka>but need debian on ssd
22:07-!-clone_test_1 [~clone_tes@h243.96.141.67.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has joined #debian
22:07<twb>seneka: do you already have an .ISO downloaded, like this one? http://cdimage.debian.org/debian-cd/8.3.0/amd64/iso-cd/debian-8.3.0-amd64-netinst.iso
22:07<seneka>fedora too... too light. i want to be devops in future...
22:07<roam>fedora is light?
22:07<seneka> twb, yes i have.
22:08<twb>seneka: OK, good. Do you know how to open a terminal?
22:08<seneka>fedora is "simple".
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22:08<roam>oh i see
22:08<seneka>yes, i open terminal.
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22:08<seneka>login as root: su
22:08<twb>seneka: OK. Do you know what device is your USB drive? e.g. /dev/sdz
22:09<twb>seneka: I mean your USB key
22:09<seneka>i not
22:09<seneka>how to know it?
22:09<twb>seneka: OK, if you run "cat /proc/partitions", it will say all your drives
22:09<twb>if you have 4GB USB key, there will be a line there with about 4000000 as its size
22:09<seneka>i see my 2 gb flash.
22:10<twb>OK, good! Now you know the drive letter
22:10-!-Corey84 [~Corey84@ip-64-134-101-164.public.wayport.net] has joined #debian
22:10<twb>Now you need to copy the ISO direct to the USB key. This will destroy all data on the USB key.
22:10<seneka>http://i.imgur.com/ZVvJJ9U.png
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22:11<twb>OK so your key is 2GB, yes? So the number should be about 2000000 --- the sdb disk is about that
22:11<seneka>yes, but it 2 of ~2000000
22:11<twb>Also if you remove the key, sdb will disappear. If you add the key, it will appear again
22:11<twb>This is how you know it is the right one
22:12<twb>sda is much bigger -- this is because your SSD is much bigger than your USB key
22:12<twb>You understand?
22:13<seneka>http://i.imgur.com/Dha3Rcp.png what of 2 i need to use?
22:13<seneka>sdb or sdb1?
22:13<twb>We write direct, no filesystem, so it is sdb
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22:13<twb>Sorry, I misunderstood your question.
22:14<twb>sdb is the usb key, sdb1 is partition #1 on usb key
22:14<seneka>ok. so, how to use -unstable- (it really with latest kernel?)&
22:14-!-superusr [~tf@p5B24749F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #debian
22:14<seneka>so we use sdb, not partition..?
22:14<twb>To install testing or unstable, we can download a testing or unstable .iso
22:15<twb>seneka: to put the iso on sdb, do "cp foo.iso /dev/sdb"
22:16<seneka>i have not testing or unstable, only netinstall of stable.
22:16<seneka>also, i dont really know is latest kernel in testing or 3.16 like in stable..?
22:17<teatime>packages.debian.org will tell you
22:17-!-ransur0t [~Lance@2601:1c2:1000:ea00:912c:d0bc:b699:78aa] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
22:17<twb>3.16 is latest in stable. But, you can install newer kernel from "jessie-backports".
22:17<musca>,kernels
22:17<judd>Available kernel versions are: experimental: 4.5.0-rc7-686-pae (4.5~rc7-1~exp1); sid: 4.4.0-1-686 (4.4.4-2); stretch: 4.3.0-1-686 (4.3.5-1); jessie-backports: 4.3.0-0.bpo.1-686 (4.3.5-1~bpo8+1); jessie: 3.16.0-4-686-pae (3.16.7-ckt20-1+deb8u4); wheezy-backports: 3.16.0-0.bpo.4-686-pae (3.16.7-ckt20-1+deb8u3~bpo70+1); wheezy: 3.2.0-4-686-pae (3.2.73-2+deb7u3)
22:19<seneka>so i need to use jassie-backports or stretch?
22:19<twb>It depends on the problem
22:20<twb>If you can boot 3.16 *at all*, it is best to install kernel from jessie-backports
22:21<seneka>if i install from 3.16, i have blackscreen after boot from ssd. without messages or something.
22:21<twb>OK so we install stretch
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22:22<teatime>the jessie installer uses the same kernel, so if it boots, I really don't think it's the SSD or the kernel keeping you from booting. I suspect much more run-of-the-mill grub/efi issues.
22:22<seneka>they (https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/3a5zgq/dont_use_linux_on_samsung_ssds_xpost_rbuildapc/) say'd that need to use at least 4.0.5 or lattest. or it not handle ssd in right way and we see bug with overwrite one files on another. or somethings like this.
22:23<twb>teatime: I agree
22:24-!-jegc [~jegc@186.170.246.163] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
22:25<teatime>I don't know much of anything about efi. but you mentioned fastboot. have you tried turning off fastboot?
22:25<seneka>i know about is need to using ext4 with paramethers of root-directory (/ is it?) is: discard (for enabling TRIM), noatime (for off journaling) and noop (i dont know reason, dont have many time, have 4:25 AM (AM is morning? or PM?)
22:25<twb>seneka: I think "discard" should be off
22:26<seneka>i have old (6 years relict) Acer Aspire 5530 laptop without UEFI. i have BIOS.
22:26<teatime>you don't need to edit any of those options. noatime doesn't disable journaling, it disables access-time tracking, and the default is already a newer/advanced option that keeps most of the benefits of having atimes without the performance problem. so you don't need to set noatime.
22:26-!-kelsoo [~kelsoo@86.53.50.178] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 1.3]
22:26<teatime>(I would say the default is relatime, but I think there is yet a newer/better one now.)
22:27<teatime>and your ssd issue, if it's affected by the bug, would *only* become a problem when you *enable* discard
22:27<seneka>what is noop..?
22:27<teatime>I forget.
22:27<seneka>._.
22:28<twb>"noop" means "do nothing"
22:29<teatime>you may be thinking of the IO scheduler, rather than a mount option
22:29<seneka>i dont really know is bug or because stable have older version, but on reddit guys say that issue is known and recommend to use new kernel. so i think that. how to download stretch?
22:29<twb>seneka: you can install stretch from your existing .iso
22:29-!-sidmo [~sidmo@p5489D1C7.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #debian
22:29<seneka>how?
22:30<twb>seneka: you must pick "expert install", it will ask if you want to install Jessie or Stretch or Sid
22:30<teatime>seneka: listen. there may be value in doing that, post-setup. but your can't-boot problem is *not* being caused by those issues. it's a red-herring.
22:30<twb>as teatime says, the SSD problem only happens if you turn on "discard"
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22:30<twb>If "discard" is off, old kernel is OK
22:30<seneka>so i can not turn TRIM?
22:30<twb>correct
22:31<jmcnaught>turning on discard in fstab is not recommended, it's better to use fstrim from a cron job
22:31<teatime>and all the new kernel does, is ignore the trim option. it doesn't actually make it work.
22:31<teatime>jmcnaught has it right. I beleive that will work even w/ the buggy SSDs.
22:31<twb>your SSD does not do TRIM properly
22:31<seneka>but i read that if it not turned on system can freezes and run slow at some time at work?
22:31-!-kelsoo [~kelsoo@86.53.50.178] has joined #debian
22:32<twb>seneka: it just makes the SSD a bit slower
22:32-!-roam [~roam@h243.96.141.67.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
22:32<twb>seneka: you probably will not even notice
22:32-!-roam [~roam@h243.96.141.67.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has joined #debian
22:32<teatime>seneka: but once again, none of this is causing your can't-boot.
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22:34<seneka>so kernel v >4.0.5 just make something that called NO_NCQ_TRIM ?
22:35<twb>seneka: kernel 4.0.5+ knows the SSD is bad, and does not ever do TRIM
22:35<twb>seneka: kernel 3.16 does not know the SSD is bad, and will do TRIM if you enable "discard". Then the SSD will not work right.
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22:36<twb>seneka: I think you should use cp to make a USB key (no unetbootin, no UUI), then do an install with all default options.
22:36<twb>seneka: if that does not boot, we can investigate
22:36-!-roam [~roam@h243.96.141.67.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has quit []
22:36<jmcnaught>seneka: i'm a little behind. when you boot do you see GRUB screen? Anything at all after that? Also was this the first boot after the installer? Maybe you just need to boot back into the installer in rescue mode
22:36-!-roam [~roam@h243.96.141.67.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has joined #debian
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22:37<seneka>i dont see GRUB screen
22:38<twb>jmcnaught: we think maybe grub did not install properly
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22:38<teatime>I'm with twb; re-install, avoid extra/advanced settings (defaults will serve you fine for now), and double-check your BIOS boot order config also.
22:38<twb>Also remove USB key before grub install
22:38<twb>Someties grub installs onto USB key, because it is dumb
22:38<seneka>also, if i manually run in graphical or pseudographical-alike menu "confogure and GRUB" (or something like that) i see error.
22:38<seneka>but without code
22:39<seneka>just "cant initiate
22:39<seneka>or use or install GRUB"
22:39<seneka>dont remember.
22:39<jmcnaught>seneka: i don't know what you mean by manually. maybe just try the installer again
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22:40<seneka>ok. i try to install without uui or unetbootin.
22:40<twb>Yay :-)
22:41-!-mrjazzcat [~mrjazzcat@c-73-243-219-67.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #debian
22:41<jmcnaught>eek.. unetbootin is a debian installer crippler
22:41<teatime>if you need to write an image from windows, there is a tool that works
22:41<seneka>manually (sorry for bag inglish) is like chose "install GRUB before use files transfer, but after disk format in ext4"
22:41<teatime>win32diskimager ?
22:41<twb>He does not need Windows; he is using Fedora
22:42<teatime>oh ok.
22:42<seneka>how to mark partitions on ssd?
22:42<twb>seneka: you can use "cp" like we discussed
22:42<twb>seneka: for partitions, do not bother yet. We need to know if this works at all
22:42<seneka>ok, thx. i try now.
22:42<twb>seneka: just choose defaults
22:43<seneka>on sdb or sdb1?
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22:43<jmcnaught>seneka: also don't use a strange installer like mini.iso. it's also worth at least skimming the install manual, paying closer attention to the parts about preparing the USB isntaller medium, and the grub parts
22:43<twb>on sdb
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22:44<twb>seneka: the install guide is here: http://www.debian.org/releases/stable/installmanual -- I see English and Russian, but not Ukrainian :-(
22:44<seneka>if i choose defaults i cant backup data if ssd have defect. how to make system on one partition and /home and all files on another like ligical D;
22:45<seneka>d:\ in шindows?
22:45<somiaj>seneka: you can have as many partitions as you want.
22:45<jmcnaught>seneka: the guided partitioning has an option for separate /home i'm pretty sure. also considering using LVM
22:45<twb>seneka: we can worry about that once we know install works at all
22:45<somiaj>seneka: but each has to live somewhere seperate. So you can easily put $HOME not on your ssd.
22:45<seneka>i speak in russian. but can speak on ukranian too. my parents rus-speakers. like half of ukrain.
22:45<twb>seneka: if install does not work, no point worrying about other problems
22:46<twb>seneka: I guessed you spoke Russian, but I did not want to assume ;-)
22:46<seneka>свободно разговариваю на русском, украинском (могу записать голос на vocaroo, да, у меня есть мерзский flash) и относительно неплозо в разговорном английском, не считая плохую граматику.
22:47<twb>Sorry, I do not speak Russian, and I do not speak Ukranian :-(
22:48<twb>Maybe you can also ask in russian/ukranian channels, though
22:48<twb>!ua
22:48<dpkg>Ukraine - ua ukr 804 User Agent. It refers to web clients, and what they send to the web server as "who they are". It can be easily faked.
22:48<twb>!ru
22:48<dpkg>Это английскоговорящий канал, пожалуйста, говорите по-английски или посетите #debian-russian (irc.freenode.net) (Russian speakers please go to #debian-russian)
22:48<twb>seneka: in #debian, only English language. In irc://irc.freenode.net/#debian-russian, Russian language
22:50<seneka>no have time to tell again my problem to them on russian channel (i dont know about #debian-russian before) i have ~5 AM so need to make it fast. but thx!
22:51<twb>OK
22:51<twb>Sorry, I did not think of that earlier
22:52<seneka>no need to sorry. my bad.
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22:55*twb goes back to finding out why rsyslog is putting " - " or " - " where it should be putting ":".
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23:03<seneka>can i use not netinst, but debian-8.3.0-amd64-CD-1.iso ?
23:04<jmcnaught>seneka: you can, but there's no real advantage to the larger iso
23:07<twb>Which .ISO is not important, as long as it is debian 8
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23:08<twb>The little ISO must download more files during install. The big ISO has them already, inside itself.
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23:09<Juest>lol
23:09<Juest>which iso is actually important
23:10<Juest>since different isos are different versions/editions/specifications
23:10<somiaj>all debian installers (ecept pxe netboot) contain the installer and a minimial base ssystem. Beyond that it is just additional packages.
23:10<somiaj>so really it is user prefrence of how mnay packages he wants to download during the isntall vs have available on the install medium. The different flavors are just different collection of packages avaialbe on the install medium
23:11<Juest>Yep
23:11<Juest>hence the importance :)
23:11<jmcnaught>netboot and mini.iso don't support uefi from what i understand
23:11<somiaj>jmcnaught: ahh that could explain a problem my friend was havining.
23:12<somiaj>also they don't contain a minmial base system either.
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23:13<twb>jmcnaught: you mean hybrid ISO doesn't support UEFI, or d-i off mini.iso doesn't support UEFI?
23:14<twb>Because in the latter case, wtf? It just anna-installs the appropriate udeb
23:14<twb>Also obviously if a CSM is available, everything will Just Work via backcompat
23:15<somiaj>twb: he is talking specificly about the pxe boot, sometimes called the netboot mini.iso
23:15<twb>That's... really confusing
23:15<jmcnaught>yeah, https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=776317
23:16<somiaj>twb: you are saying you can select the correct modules during the pxe boot to get efi boot to work with pxe boot [just courious, I don't use it, but have a friend with troubles with it using preseed and I thoguht the problemw as releated to efi]
23:16<judd>Bug http://bugs.debian.org/776317 in cdimage.debian.org (open): «Jessie RC1 amd64 mini image missing efi bootloader»; severity: normal; opened: 2015-01-26; last modified: 2015-04-01.
23:16<twb>If you PXE boot via CSM, d-i will see a BIOS, not UEFI
23:16<twb>(I think)
23:16<twb>I have PXE booted via CSM, but only debian-live, not d-i
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23:17<somiaj>debian-live doesn't have efi
23:17<twb>somiaj: the original problem report in #776317 is not related to PXE afaict -- he specifically mentioned booting from USB
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23:19<seneka>also, if usb flash not formatted, i need to use dd, but not cp?
23:19<twb>does not matter
23:19<seneka>cp delete all data from flash before copy?
23:19<somiaj>seneka: use cp unless you are a dd master
23:19<twb>both will delete all data on USB key
23:19<somiaj>seneka: you cp it to the device (/dev/sdX) not the filesystem
23:20<seneka>if copy on device, its del all from it?
23:20<somiaj>seneka: really the difference is cp and dd have different defaults on the copy. cp's defaults are just fine for the .iso, though if you are a dd master you can probabaly get a little boost from it
23:20<somiaj>seneka: corret, because you are copying a full file system with partition table onto the device, so all parittion table and filesystem info is lost
23:20<seneka>i not a dd master.
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23:21<somiaj>seneka: cp has nicer defaults, but dd has way more power. You really don't need the power here which is hy the install guide suggests using cp
23:21<somiaj>(you can also use cat too if you want to redirect)
23:22<somiaj>but they both get the job done, and dd gets used a lot because it is the traditional image copier
23:22<twb>because people are dumb
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23:22<seneka>dumb because dont use new features?
23:23-!-paxmark9 [~paxtormar@198.144.158.14] has joined #debian
23:23<seneka>not flexible-minded
23:23<seneka>?
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23:24<seneka>or traditional - conformism?
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23:26<twb>seneka: it doesn't matter :P
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23:28<seneka>http://i.imgur.com/KudJMmp.png what i doing wrong?
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23:29<twb>maybe USB key is just slow?
23:29*roam nods
23:29<seneka>nods?
23:30<twb>seneka: open another shell, do "ls -hl /dev/sdb". What do you see?
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23:30<roam>twb: the cp has probably been interrrupted by the ^C and should be restarted as soon as cp terminates (or is manually killed)
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23:31<twb>"nods" means roam is nodding his head, to agree with what I said. -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nodding
23:31<twb>roam: I agree
23:31<twb>I want to check /dev/sdb is not a regular file --- this is possible if seneka has a very old cp program
23:31<seneka>thx
23:32<seneka>http://i.imgur.com/YToNz4k.png
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23:32<seneka>what is it?
23:33<twb>seneka: that is because you are still looking at the old sdb1, even though cp has deleted it
23:33<twb>It is not a problem
23:33<seneka>i need to unmount flash first, before cp on it?
23:33<seneka>or it not important?
23:34<seneka>need to re-write it if i use cp when flash mounted?
23:34<twb>It should not matter, but it is probably better to umount first
23:34<seneka>oke
23:34<twb>But because you used ^C, you should run the cp again
23:35<seneka>i do it again. because fear of errors.
23:35<seneka>i used ctrl+c because think it freased
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23:36<seneka>also, how called (need to know to lurk it with startpage) that commands like ^C (and others, if it many)&
23:36<seneka>?
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23:38<seneka>when i see question "cp: overwrite ‘/dev/sdb’?" need to use just enter or "y" or "Y"?
23:39<twb>y should work
23:40<seneka>ok. thx again.
23:40<twb>For the ^C, a good place to start is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ANSI_escape_sequences
23:41<twb>seneka: better link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Control_character
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23:43<somiaj>twb: it shoudln't ask you to overwrite a file, are you running cp as root? What command did you run?
23:43<somiaj>arg
23:43<somiaj>seneka: ^^
23:43<twb>somiaj: I thought it was strange, too
23:43<seneka>i use su
23:44<seneka>and pass
23:44<twb>But I didn't have a spare drive to test
23:44<twb>somiaj: from the screenshots, you can see he was root
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23:44<lancelot>Hello, what is nowadays a working adobe flash alternative?
23:44<somiaj>I didn't see the screen shots, did it have the actual command you typed?
23:44<seneka>it's fedora feature..?
23:45<somiaj>lancelot: do you want a free alternative, or just a newer non-free plugin than the one provided by adobe? Which browser do you use?
23:45<twb>It didn't
23:45<lancelot>free alternative
23:45<lancelot>iceweasel
23:45<twb>lancelot: depends what it is doing
23:45<twb>lancelot: and are you the content distributor, or the consumer?
23:45<seneka>also, if unmount in Thunar filemanager - usb-flash dissapear from /proc/partitions
23:45<lancelot>consumer
23:46<seneka>so i need to unmount and mount
23:46<somiaj>lancelot: gnash is the opensource flash plugin, though it may not be compadable with all flash features.
23:46<twb>lancelot: is it just videos?
23:46<twb>!flash
23:46<dpkg>Flash is frequently used to deliver interactivity, audio and video through a web browser. Ask me about <gnash> and <lightspark> for free implementations, or <adobe flash> and <pepper flash> for non-free implementations. http://wiki.debian.org/Flash
23:46<lancelot>mostly videos, but in the wiki gnash seems a bit outdated
23:46<lancelot>shall i try it anyway?
23:47<twb>You could also try setting the site to HTML5 video instead
23:47<twb>Or something like youtube-dl (which supports more than just youtube)
23:47<lancelot>but which one should i try first, gnash or lightspark?
23:47<somiaj>seneka: what is the output of 'file /dev/sdb'
23:47<seneka>flash it that, what make my furryfucks slow when open 10 youtube tabs.
23:48<seneka>i now overwriting. when cp make it done - try
23:48<twb>lancelot: I don't know. I ship pepper to my end users, because they whinge otherwise and it was too hard to debug
23:48<lancelot>ok
23:48<roam>twb: maybe mozilla's shumway on the nightly channel could work as an alt to flash . . . in a couple of years
23:48<somiaj>lancelot: up to you. I use pepperflash (but this is nonfree). As for free alternatives, I'd just try them both. Not hard to isntall/remove either of them as debian provides them.
23:48<twb>somiaj: I think one problem was when he unmounts in Thunar it also soft-ejects the drive
23:49<lancelot>package manager says gnash "not found"
23:49<somiaj>twb: that is what I was wondering was if udev has attached the device to that node
23:49<somiaj>,v gnash
23:49<twb>roam: the problem is 95% that the content providers are idiots and don't just use webm/vp8
23:49<judd>Package: gnash on amd64 -- squeeze-security: 0.8.8-5+squeeze1; squeeze: 0.8.8-5+squeeze1; squeeze-backports: 0.8.10-5~bpo60+1; wheezy: 0.8.11~git20120629-1+deb7u1; jessie-backports: 0.8.11~git20150419-1~bpo8+1; sid: 0.8.11~git20160109-1
23:49<somiaj>lancelot: hmm, didn't realize it was removed from jessie, seems it is in jessie-backports though.
23:49<roam>twb: very true
23:49<twb>roam: which in turn is because the proprietary browsers are refusing to adopt "might be patent-encumbered" video codecs
23:49<lancelot>i'm not a backports type of person
23:50<somiaj>lancelot: also seems like it is the same version as wheezy, which means it hasn't really been updated, so maybe lightspark has more active packages. I'm unsure on either of this.
23:50<twb>the w3 video group has been deadlocked for years
23:50<jmcnaught>lancelot: i used gnash on wheezy for a bit, it worked for youtube videos but that was about it. i just do without flash now.
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23:50<lancelot>lightspark shows in the package manager, seems the only way to go
23:50<twb>roam: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTML5_video#Supported_video_formats
23:51<lancelot>installing lightspark
23:51<twb>I wonder how the Opus codec is doing
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23:57<lancelot>allright, lightspark installed all packages, iceweasel plugin enabled, and i get this error from a content provider: Unexpected end of file.
23:58<lancelot>Lightspark encountered a yet unsupported flash file
23:59<roam>twb: Safari and IE?
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---Logclosed Tue Mar 15 00:00:23 2016