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#debian IRC Logs for 2016-10-06

---Logopened Thu Oct 06 00:00:57 2016
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00:12-!-Arrowmaster is "Arrowmaster" on #debian
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00:19-!-vortek is "Fuckoff ;)" on #debian #debian-offtopic @#debian-offtopicc @#uberelite
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00:26-!-Se-bash is "Sebastián Coca" on #debian-next #debian-es #debian
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02:53-!-Drzacek is "realname" on #debian #debian-next
02:54<Drzacek>Good morning
02:54<Drzacek>I believe I have broken my akonadi-thing
02:56<Drzacek>I was working on address book, when it suddenly crashed. After that it crashed every time, right on start. I believed that it had problems with some entry in my address book (the problem started right after I added birth date for one of the contacts), so I tried "cleaning" it
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02:57<Drzacek>Removed the .local/share/akonadi, .config/akonadi and .kde/share/config/akonadi*, apt-get install --reinstall akonadi-server kaddressbook
02:57<Drzacek>then I restarted the akonadi server - akonadictl start
02:58-!-skitt [~skitt@skitt.user.oftc.net] has joined #debian
02:58-!-skitt is "Stephen Kitt" on #debian-ftp #debian
02:58<Drzacek>akonadictl status says that the service is running, but when I now start KAddressBook, it says that akonadi personal info management service is not operational
02:58<Drzacek>any help with that?
02:59-!-kg-kriin-vdeb [~quassel@2601:1c2:4c00:e61:7dc6:85fa:bd82:3c85] has joined #debian
02:59-!-kg-kriin-vdeb is "Server Admin,,," on #debian
03:00<Echoz>I've never used akonadi but have you tried to see if there's an akonadi process still running?
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03:01<Echoz>i.e. more than the one you started
03:02<Drzacek>well, I did many reboots since then
03:02<Drzacek>hmm
03:02<Drzacek>now it says stopped
03:03<Echoz>do you know where to find logs on it?
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03:03-!-pamaury is "Amaury Pouly" on #debian #debian-kde #debian-next
03:03<Drzacek>no
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03:07<Echoz>any files in ~/.config/akonadi* or ~/.local/share/akonadi*
03:08-!-mode/#debian [+l 738] by debhelper
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03:17<ach>hi
03:17<Echoz>ach: hi
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03:22<ach>you interested in an answer?
03:22<ach>i set all away and get but their is software and flee cause in some marked individual!
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03:25<Drzacek>in ~/.local/share/akonadi/db_data/mysql.err I got a lot of "InnoDB: Error: Table "mysql"."innodb_table_stats" not found"
03:27<Drzacek>http://paste.debian.net/857731/
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04:26<hewl>I'm running Debian stable with Linux kernel 4.7 from backports. Using the nouveau drivers for my GTX 750Ti. Xorg is extremely unstable and crashes on any of the following: Attempting to view information about OpenGL, attempting to view a .webm video, closing and opening a GTK application repeatedly.
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04:27<hewl>In Xorg's logs, it says it's failed to load module "nv" (does not exist) and reverting to software rendering.
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04:30<sicelo>how would i install, using apt, a package from repositories _without_ pulling itn the dependencies?
04:30<hewl>I just found another Xorg log (are they stored separately for each screen detected?). "/dev/dri/card0: failed to set DRM interface: Permission denied", "fatal server error" and a lot more after that.
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04:30<hewl>sicelo: apt and not apt-get?
04:30<sicelo>apt-get, sorry :-)
04:31<hewl>sicelo: Just a heads up, doing that will probably cause whatever you're installing to fail to install. I'll check out the manual though.
04:31<Echoz>sicelo: apt-get download and then use dpkg -i on the downloaded file
04:31<Echoz>but expect chaos
04:32<hewl>ty Echoz
04:32<sicelo>thanks. will try that :-)
04:32<hewl>sicelo: You can always just --no-download if you've got the packages locally, if that's what you're doing
04:33<Jessie-jesses>startx fehler!
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04:34<Echoz>sicelo: if the package has pre-dependencies though you'll probably have to edit out the dependencies manually
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04:34<hewl>I think Debian is just software rendering instead of using the GPU. How would I make it use nouveau?
04:35<Echoz>sicelo: but chances are you won't be able to install it anyway without the pre-dependencies, since they are used for the actual installation, like how you'd need tar to extract a tar archive
04:35-!-trench_ is now known as trench
04:35<jm_>Jessie-jesses: if you are looking for help in german try #debian.de (on irc.oftc.net, irc.freenode.net or irc.belwue.de
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04:36<Jessie-jesses>ok thanks
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04:38<Echoz>hewl: check the output of glxinfo
04:39<hewl>Echoz: Does that need root?
04:39<Echoz>hewl: No, but it requires a running X server and if not executed from that X server it requires the DISPLAY variable to be set
04:39<hewl>"bash: glxinfo: command not found"
04:40<hewl>Echoz: I've just done apt-get upgrade and it's upgraded the kernel, should I restart before continuing?
04:40<Echoz>Ah, you need the package mesa-utils
04:40<jm_>which kernel did it upgrade?
04:41<hewl>Linux-image-4.7.0-0.bpo.1-amd64-unsigned (4.7.5-1~bpo8+2)
04:41<hewl>jm_ ^ is what it upgraded to
04:42<jm_>hewl: then it probably makes sense to reboot first yes
04:42<hewl>jm_ Will do.
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04:43<hewl>Echoz: Is there a way to view the information given by glxinfo without installing additional packages? I'll restart in the meantime.
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04:45<hewl>Back. Heads up, if I leave at any point then it's because I crashed.
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04:46<Echoz>hewl: no way to find the glxinfo output that i'm aware of. I checked if it was perhaps just a script but it's an ELF binary
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04:46<hewl>Echoz: What information were you seeking exactly?
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04:47<Echoz>hewl: you should look at the glx version, glx vendor string, direct rendering
04:48<hewl>Echoz: Ah, that's what I'd use Kinfo for, but that causes Xorg to crash when attempting to view that information.
04:48<Echoz>glxinfo has a lot of output but for those things "glxinfo | head" should suffice
04:48<hewl>Echoz: I'll get, was the package mesa-utilities?
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04:48<Echoz>mesa-utils
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04:51<hewl>You'll never guess.
04:51<hewl>glxinfo also causes the crash
04:51<hewl>I'll try doing it in another terminal screen via ctrl+alt+F2
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04:52<hewl_>I'm on this username now because I think doing it in terminal 2 crashed it in terminal 1.
04:52<hewl_>However I was able to see what it said, "No screen found".
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04:53<jm_>that's why you were told you need to run it with DISPLAY set
04:54<hewl_>jm_ I may have missed that with one of the crashes, or that's what the "| head" was for wasn't it?
04:54<Echoz>no, head just discards everything but the ten first lines, since that's not relevant now
04:54<Echoz>Do you have an X server running?
04:54<jm_>hewl_: no, DISPLAY=:0.0 glxinfo but I doubt it'll change anything regarding the crash
04:54<hewl_>Echoz: Right now I have an X server running, using a GUI chat client to connect to this IRC.
04:55<hewl_>jm_ I definitely did not see that.
04:55<hewl_>The X server automatically restarts after crashing.
04:55<hewl_>I think it may be using screen 1 instead of screen 0, too, as the logs seem to indicate.
04:55<jm_>hewl_: <Echoz> hewl: No, but it requires a running X server and if not executed from that X server it requires the DISPLAY variable to be set
04:56<jm_>then DISPLAY may need to be adjusted
04:56<hewl_>jm_ Ah, I understand now. Does switching terminals kill the X server? I don't want to restart the GUI again.
04:56<jm_>hewl_: not normally no
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04:57<EmleyMoor>The speed of my fan1 in xsensors seems to be fluctuating wildly between -1 and 67500...
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04:58<hewl__>Once again a crash. I'm using the third terminal to connect to IRC. I may have to restart anyway as the first screen is unresponsive.
04:58<Echoz>hewl_: it crashed when running glxinfo?
04:59<Echoz>hewl_: I'm sure you've mentioned it earlier but what graphics card and drivers are you using?
04:59<hewl__>Echoz: With glxinfo itself, yes. With the display variable set, I don't know. But the display variable displays a huge amount of numbers on screen, going beyond scrool.
04:59<hewl__>*scroll
04:59<Echoz>hewl__: that's why i suggest piping it into head or less so you can see it all
04:59<hewl__>Echoz: Nvidia GeForce GTX 750Ti. I was told it's incompatible with the current linux kernel on Debian stable, which is why I backported.
05:00<hewl__>Echoz: Ok, that gives me a bunch of information about the screen and its current settings.
05:00<hewl__>Echoz: What were you interested in?
05:00<Echoz>hewl__: It really shouldn't be, I use a 760 and it worked even before I installed 4.3 bpo. also with the proprietary drives in the stable repos, but installed backports for some performance improvements and bug fixes
05:00<Echoz>server glx vendor string, version string, direct rendering
05:01<hewl__>Echoz: To note, this works fine with the proprietry drivers. I just wanted to use nouveau instead.
05:01<Echoz>hewl__: Oh, and it did not work out of the box?
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05:02<ach>just cd /etc/inti.d if gnome ./gdm3 stop ./nuov also grafic driver
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05:02<hewl__>server glx vendor string: SGI, version string: 1.4, direct rendering: Yes
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05:02<hewl__>On first install, it fell back to vesa or whatever, and it refused to go above 800x600 and did not have any graphics acceleration until I installed nvidia-driver.
05:03<hewl__>ach: I'm on KDE.
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05:04<Echoz>hewl__: I see, must be something in that model then, unless the 750Ti is more recent than 760. A friend had trouble with his 970 but it was clearly a lot more recent
05:04<hewl__>I don't know if my options are better to simply remove the backported kernel, reinstall nvidia-driver and resume using that.
05:04<hewl__>Or to attempt to fix this.
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05:05<Echoz>hewl__: Depends what your reasoning of wanting noveau over nvidia-driver is. Personally I think the nvidia proprietary drivers work extremely well, but there's always the fact that it's proprietary
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05:06<hewl__>Echoz: It was the fact that v-sync wasn't working as intended and the occasional crash of GTK applications. I don't know if that was related to the graphics, but the method of crash made me think it was.
05:07<ach>i think it is called kdecore or something similair but do not shut down the xserver just enviroment
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05:08<hewl__>Echoz: I had a way of forcing v-sync (by forcing triple buffering in Kwin, which inherently causes v-sync) but I would like a more proper method. I'll go back to that if I can't get a stable desktop, however.
05:09<Echoz>hewl__: normally v-sync is achieved in the compositor. however perhaps in some proprietary drivers there is a different way
05:09<hewl__>ach: I don't intend on shutting down xserver. Why would I want to shut down the DE?
05:09<jm_>have you read VBLANK SYNCING in the readme for nvidia driver?
05:09<jm_>read about*
05:09<hewl__>Echoz: It seems to be a bug in this version of KDE. It doesn't properly detect V-sync on boot, and hence the FPS is uncapped and that causes screen tearing.
05:10<hewl__>Echoz: Having a script call KWIN_TRIPLE_BUFFERING = TRUE will force the triple buffering setting to be enabled and that forces V-sync.
05:10<hewl__>jm_ No, what is that? And where is the nvidia driver readme? Is that "man nvidia-driver"?
05:11<jm_>hewl__: /usr/share/doc/nvidia-driver/README.txt.gz when it's installed
05:11<hewl__>jm_ I have a feeling VBLANK SYNC is another word for v-sync, although v-sync means Vertical Synchronisation.
05:12<jm_>hewl__: yes
05:12<hewl__>jm_ I can't install it at the moment. Was there any pertinent information I should be aware of? The original problem was that the compositor was not properly detecting the capabilities of my graphics card.
05:13<jm_>hewl__: it details how to do it, limitations etc. it also mentions many other options etc.
05:13<hewl__>jm_ Does it mention editing nvidia.conf? Or xorg.conf?
05:14<hewl__>jm_ Because that's ignored by Kwin.
05:15<ach>then it is more simple and i would give this by a fithty to fithy chance that's it
05:15<jm_>hewl__: it depends, some stuff can only be changed via xorg.conf AFAIK
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05:15<ach>also just shut down DE get in ctrl + alt + f1 or what ever clean out and install.
05:15<hewl__>jm_ What can be changed without xorg.conf, then?
05:16<hewl__>ach: I'm not reinstalling Debian.
05:16<jm_>hewl__: I don't know, or in other words, I don't have a list of such things
05:17<ach>i said about the driver.
05:17<hewl__>Actually, can someone who hasn't been constantly crashing scroll up and paste the kernel version I posted earlier? I'd like to compare it.
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05:17<jm_>what's the purpose of pasting it?
05:18<hewl__>ach: I just finished the several-hour-long process of removing nvidia-driver to attempt to use nouveau. If going back I need to uninstall the newer kernel and then install nvidia-driver, which is another thing all together after the apt-get upgrade.
05:19<hewl__>jm: I dryrunned autoclean and it's showing me the (what I think is) older kernel version. The difference I think is 4.7.0.0 to 4.7.0.1
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05:19<hewl__>I mean, 4.7.0-0 and 4.7.0-1
05:19<jm_>hewl__: dpkg -l|grep linux-image
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05:20<ach>kernel and nvidia driver work not and nouveau not i told well?
05:20<hewl__>jm_: Ok, so the only difference between the first version that was installed and the one that was upgraded was that "-unsigned 4.7.5" appears at the end of it.
05:21<hewl__>ach: I've tried both. nvidia-driver works but begrudingly (I need to trick it to work properly) while nouveau is causing massive instability/not properly being activated.
05:21<ach>just you could read i will enternily protect.
05:22<hewl__>ach: I'm sorry, I don't understand.
05:22<jm_>hewl__: you can find actual versions in apt and dpkg logs
05:23<hewl__>jm_ Oh I see it now
05:23<hewl__>jm_ After the unsigned version, even after the bpo part, it says 2 instead of 1. I missed that earlier.
05:24<jm_>hewl__: yeah that's common for security updates too etc.
05:24<hewl__>"unsigned 4.7.5-1~bpo+2" compared to "unsigned 4.7.5-1~bpo+1"
05:25<hewl__>jm_ Anyway that'll only come in handy later when I want to uninstall the kernel. Which I may want to do.
05:26<hewl__>I'll check later to see if Bluca comes online. He seemed to be knowledgable about nvidia drivers specifically. I'll be trying out various things in the meantime. See you all later.
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05:26<Beowulf>Hi, I'm having a problem with the OpenGL drivers on my Debian installation that's preventing me from using steam and genymotion correctly. Everytime I run the two, I get this message: "/bin/sh: symbol lookup error: /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/dri/swrast_dri.so: undefined symbol: _glapi_tls_Dispatch"
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05:27<Beowulf>I tried doing a "sudo apt-get install --reinstall libgl1-mesa-dri:amd64 libgl1-mesa-dri:i386", but that didn't fix the problem
05:27<Beowulf>Suggestions?
05:28<jm_>try ldd /usr/lib/xorg/modules/extensions/libglx.so and see which GL libs it uses
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06:02<T60>Hello, I flashed my Thinkpad T60 with libreboot and I am currently deciding which distribution to choose. I'd like to know what the difference is between Linux-libre and the Linux kernel loaded on a fully free system. Does the generic kernel load binary blobs at all and does it make the slightest contact with a blob even when not using/requiring it?
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06:15<Beowulf>jm_: sorry, back. this is what i grabbed from the output:
06:15<Beowulf>"libGL.so.1 => /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libGL.so.1 (0x00007f37d58be000)"
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06:15<Beowulf>libglapi.so.0 => /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libglapi.so.0 (0x00007f00bfe8e000)
06:15<Beowulf>libxcb-glx.so.0 => /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libxcb-glx.so.0 (0x00007f00bf0f6000)
06:16<EmleyMoor>Anything I can do on a temporary basis to have my machine run cooler?
06:16<jm_>Beowulf: use the paste site, also check what that is: ls -l /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libGL*
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06:16<jm_>EmleyMoor: don't run CPU/gfx hogs?
06:16<EmleyMoor>(needs a new case and maybe new fans or water cooling, but that has to wait a few days)
06:17<EmleyMoor>jm_: My backup process is enough to push temperature up, and it's full backup day!
06:17<Beowulf>jm_: is there a specific paste site that this channel uses? the topic doesn't mention one
06:18<EmleyMoor>Beowulf: paste.debian.net
06:18<jm_>EmleyMoor: tried switching to powersave cpu governor?
06:18<jm_>!tell Beowulf -about paste
06:18<EmleyMoor>jm_: No but might if I can find out how without too much bother
06:19<moony>I'm late on this problem, obviously, but is his bios set to higher clocking?
06:19<Beowulf>jm_: http://paste.debian.net/857780/
06:19<EmleyMoor>moony: I'm not overclocking (haven't trusted it in 20+ years)
06:19<jm_>EmleyMoor: cpufreq-set shall work
06:20<moony>you don't have to be overclocking.
06:20<moony>Your kernel or bios can choose otherwise however.
06:20<moony>I had to make debian stop turning my power down.
06:22<jm_>Beowulf: is this debian?
06:23<EmleyMoor>jm_: ... but what do I tell it? I'm getting segfaults
06:23<jm_>EmleyMoor: ok run cpufreq-info and see which gowernors are available first
06:23<jm_>and also check the driver: line
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06:24<Beowulf>jm_: the OS name itself is Kali, but it's a Debian kernel with a couple pentesting patches. Packages are streamed from Debian testing.
06:25<EmleyMoor>No mentioned governors or driver - says "no or unknown cpufreq driver" for all
06:25<jm_>Beowulf: then you will have to ask elsewhere for help
06:25<jm_>!kali
06:25<dpkg>Kali Linux (http://www.kali.org/) is a security and penetration testing distribution from the creators of <backtrack>. It is based on Debian, but it is not Debian and is not supported in #debian. Seek help in #kali-linux on chat.freenode.net or http://forums.kali.org/ . Also ask me about <based on debian>, and read http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/hacker-howto.html
06:26<jm_>which CPU is this then?
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06:27<EmleyMoor>jm: AMD FX-9370
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06:27<Beowulf>jm_: ahh ok, thx
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06:28<jm_>EmleyMoor: can you load the acpi-cpufreq module?
06:29<jm_>Beowulf: no problem
06:29<EmleyMoor>modprobe: ERROR: could not insert 'acpi_cpufreq': No such device
06:31<jm_>huh is this 4.x kernel?
06:31<EmleyMoor>3.16.0-4-amd64 #1 SMP Debian 3.16.36-1+deb8u1
06:32<jm_>try the 4.x from bpo
06:32<EmleyMoor>jm_: OK - if I have another crash, I will
06:33<hewl>Should be 4.7.0
06:33<EmleyMoor>Got one machine with it on for another reason, so I know how
06:33<Echoz>Beowulf: my paste site is the ultimate paste site
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06:35<jm_>heh odd, no one seems to have reported cpufreq-set segfault yet
06:36<shika>exit
06:36<hewl>shika: You may be looking for /quit
06:37<moony>;x
06:37<moony>hewl, still haven't slept
06:37<moony>lol
06:37<shika>ahah yeah i'm a noobie ! ^
06:37<shika>^^
06:37<hewl>shika: If you want to cancel anything at anytime in the terminal, hit Ctrl+C.
06:38-!-mode/#debian [+l 753] by debhelper
06:38<shika>ok thx for your help :)
06:38<shika>see you soon
06:38<hewl>shika: It's very powerful so use it wisely. ie. don't install a package and do it while it's installing
06:38<Life>or /exit @weechat
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06:38<EmleyMoor>Response I once got to "Hit Ctrl and C" - "I've hit Ctrl but didn't see anything"
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06:39<hewl>EmleyMoor: "Hit F5" "Alright, F and 5 are now typed in. What now?"
06:41<EmleyMoor>hewl: Oddly enough I do know of one type of keyboard where you do do that!
06:42<hewl>EmleyMoor: Would that be some form of Sticky keys?
06:42<EmleyMoor>hewl: Yes, as implemented on a certain "large keys" keyboard I know, where there's no room for F-keys.
06:43<EmleyMoor>(never did find how you do F11 asnd F12)
06:43<hewl>EmleyMoor: But that begs the question, what if you wanted to type in the phrase F5?
06:43<EmleyMoor>You type FF5
06:45<hewl>EmleyMoor: But what if you wanted to type in FF5, so on and ect.?
06:45<EmleyMoor>FFF5
06:45<hewl>EmleyMoor: Amazing.
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06:46<EmleyMoor>Takes a bit of getting used to
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06:46<EmleyMoor>It's the main reason I like to keep a keyboard in my toolbox
06:47<aV>if I want to prepare a debian on a arm embedded pc to run Qt programs, which would be the steps? And it's easy to cross-compile from my Windows desktop?
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06:48<EmleyMoor>"I need to type Ffestiniog" - "Well, that will work because there's no numbers in it - just don't expect to see the Fs until you hit e"
06:48<hewl>aV: If using Debian install it should have enough by default to run Qt applications, but if you wanted a correct skin then you might need more. I'm presuming a KDE desktop, though.
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06:49<hewl>EmleyMoor: I love programmers.
06:50*EmleyMoor needs to get some CR2032s to restore the bathroom scales so he can weigh a parcel
06:51<EmleyMoor>May as well go for a supermarket lunch while I'm at it
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06:51<EmleyMoor>Just hoping this machine keeps running
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06:52<aV>hewl: hmmm ok. Right now what I have is a deployed Debian image, and it has the essential: Debian package management system, X11, Fluxbox desktop manager, no file manager
06:52<hewl>EmleyMoor: It's stable, isn't it? You should be fine.
06:53<hewl>aV: Oh dear, that's something a bit more involved. There should be instructions on what exactly you need to set up from Qt themselves to help you with an install from scratch. You can also poke apt-get to see which dependencies it may need, let me look up how to do it.
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06:54<aV>hewl: :D
06:54<hewl>aV: Do you know the name of the package you'll need? Are you on stable, unstable or rolling?
06:55<EmleyMoor>hewl: Temperature is fluctuating, sometimes hitting 80.
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06:56<hewl>EmleyMoor: I mean the version of OS, not the temperature haha. You can be on either of the ones I mentioned above. Unless that was the joke and it flew over my head.
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06:57<aV>hewl: No. I dont have any qt program. The goal is to have the machine ready to run Qt programs. It's Debian GNU/Linux Wheezy
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06:59<hewl>aV: You'll need to install particular packages to be able to run Qt applications. A Debian install with a DE should include them but I'm not sure of the install type you're doing. Can you check if you have the package "qtcore4-l10n" installed? If you don't know just tell me.
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07:02<hewl>aV: Even better, check for libqtcore4
07:03<aV>no, none of them
07:03<aV>btw, what u mean with DE?
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07:03<hewl>aV: What about the same, but for version 5 instead of 4? 4 is the current version for stable, but if you're on unstable or above it might be 5. Just replace the 4 with a 5.
07:04<hewl>aV: DE stands for Desktop Environment. It's a huge collection of packages and applications to give you an environment which just works out of the box, no additional setup required.
07:04<aV>neither, there is no qt package
07:04<hewl>aV: Common ones are GNOME, KDE and LXDE.
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07:05<aV>ah ok
07:05<hewl>aV: Then you'll probably need to install one of them. Do you know if you're running Debian stable or unstable?
07:05<Echoz>hewl: testing should also have qt5
07:05<hewl>^
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07:05<aV>How do I check that?
07:06<hewl>Echoz: Do you know the name of the metapackage needed for Qt applications? I'm having trouble finding it.
07:06<Echoz>hewl: not sure, but i will take a look
07:06<hewl>aV: When you downloaded Debian you were given the choice between them. If you don't know then you're probably on Stable, which is the default choice.
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07:07<aV>The image that I have has been made by the company of the embedded pc
07:07<hewl>aV: If you can check your OS version, stable is currently 8.6 Jessie and unstable is Stretch (don't know the number, it should be 9.X). Sid is rolling release.
07:07<aV>version 7
07:08<hewl>That's Wheezy, currently the oldest supported version.
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07:08<aV>kernel 3.0.35
07:08<Echoz>hewl: I think libqtcore4 at the base but there are more libraries for things like networking and so on. kde-runtime appears to contain all of that including packages to run kde applications
07:08<hewl>aV: I'm not familiar with what Qt version was on that. Let mec check their site.
07:08<hewl>Echoz: I thought kde-runtime would do it but I think he wouldn't want to install the whole KDE.
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07:09<aV>hewl: yeah, the idea is to have the minimum
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07:09<Echoz>hewl: it's only the runtime components and required by most of the kde applications, however if it's an application not directly related to KDE he could probably do with the particular libqt packages he needs
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07:10<hewl>aV: What application did you want to run? Could you get an example if it's just a bunch?
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07:10<Echoz>aV: what sort of applications are you trying to run?
07:10<hewl>aV: Normally they'll have their dependencies list mention the things you'll need for Qt if it's a Qt application.
07:11<aV>ok, I get it. I will try first to deploy some Qt program and see what happens
07:12<hewl>aV: If possible, do -s and simulate the install. Check what dependencies it needs.
07:12<aV>but if I dont have any Qt package installed, it will do nothing, no?
07:12<hewl>aV: By default, apt-get will install everything that's required to run the application as listed by its dependency list. It will install Qt if it's needed.
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07:13<aV>ah ok
07:13<hewl>However you should install the Qt packages manually because of one case,
07:13<hewl>if you uninstall the first application you used to get the Qt libraries, then all the Qt libraries will be marked as no longer needed and will be uninstalled on the next autoremove
07:13<aV>ok, I will search some qt program and I will tell u later
07:13<hewl>so if you installed applications that needed it afterward they may stop working
07:14<aV>thnaks for all guys :)
07:14<aV>yeah, I understand
07:14<Echoz>aV: if it's trying to load shared libraries that don't exist it will give you an error
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07:15<hewl>he could probably run that fancy dpkg code which scans the package list for everything installed that mentions Qt. Forgot how to do that though.
07:16<Echoz>dpkg -l | grep -i qt
07:16<dpkg>No packages found matching | grep -i qt
07:16<hewl>Echoz: That's it. Thanks. Also I think I found the metapackage,
07:16<hewl>libqtgui4
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07:17<hewl>And for Qt programs written in perl, libqtgui4-perl
07:17<Echoz>hewl: it's only the GUI module
07:17<hewl>Echoz: It includes the core which is the bare essentials needed to run Qt applications. You can't run a whole system off of that but if you just want to run Qt apps it should be enough.
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07:18<hewl>ah maybe I'm completely wrong though
07:18<Echoz>hewl: at least for a simple GUI application, you will need other modules only if the applications use them of course
07:19<hewl>yeah, it's not a metapackage then. Scratch what I've just recently said, then.
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07:20<hewl>Could always just install the entirety of KDE and it'll include everything needed to run a system and more.
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07:21<Echoz>alternative to that i'd suggest kde-runtime as it doesn't include the actual applications, but of course kde is the optimal environment for most qt applications
07:22<jm_>!install kde
07:22<dpkg>The 'kde-standard' package gets you the common set-up, 'kde-plasma-desktop' and 'kde-plasma-netbook' provide minimal KDE 4 setups with respective flavouring, and 'kde-full' installs everything KDE 4. To install using Debian-Installer (if not using KDE CD-1): from the 'Software selection' dialog, choose "KDE" (use space bar to toggle selections), then "Continue".
07:24<hewl>That step always confused me. If you want to install the KDE but not GNOME, would you leave the "Install DE" option checked and then check "Install KDE" in addition to that or would you just have "Install KDE" checked?
07:25<jm_>depends if you want both or just one
07:25<Echoz>if you want to install kde like in the installer you can run tasksel even on an installed system
07:25<jm_>for just KDE it's the latter isn't it?
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07:27<Echoz>jm_: it contains xorg and xorg drivers and some files for debian desktop installations such as the artwork, themes, shortcuts for debian-related things
07:28<Echoz>hewl: so if you choose a desktop environment you should choose "Debian desktop environment", too
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07:29<hewl>What I selected was "Install DE" and "Install KDE" and that seems to have installed just KDE. Through virtual machine I found that if you have "Install DE" selected but not "Install GNOME" GNOME will be installed anyway. I believe that option should be made more clearer as to what it does.
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07:30<hewl>jm_ I have no idea what happens if you just select "Install KDE" and nothing else.
07:30<Echoz>the DE metapackages tasksel installs, anyway, are called task-gnome-desktop, task-kde-desktop and so on
07:30<Echoz>hewl: I can't say for sure but you'd probably just not get these debian specific things
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07:31<hewl>Echoz: Seems to be the case. I just checked and task-gnome-desktop is not present on my system, even though "Install DE" was initially selected.
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07:32<Echoz>task-desktop recommends task-gnome-desktop | task-xfce-desktop ..., tasksel probably chooses gnome for you if you haven't chosen one. I'll see what happens when i dry run install task-desktop on a headless server
07:33<hewl>Echoz: That'll be interesting.
07:34<Echoz>hewl: it chooses gnome, but doesn't give any reason why
07:34<hewl>Echoz: Interesting. The default selection is to just have "Install DE" selected, maybe it's done like that to "noob proof" the installer or something?
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07:37<jm_>yes, that gets you gnome
07:38<Echoz>hewl: possibly, or just make it easier to just press enter through, since debian with gnome has traditionally been default debian
07:38<Echoz>"apt-get install --dry-run task-kde-desktop task-desktop" does not try to install gnome
07:39<hewl>Echoz: That's good, I guess. But still the options on the installer could be laid out in a more understandable format.
07:39<jm_>indeed as task-kde-desktop satisfies the task-desktop's alternative
07:39<Echoz>jm_: Yup
07:42<Echoz>"apt-get install --dry-run --no-install-recommends task-desktop" does not install gnome either, so it is possible, just not through tasksel
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07:45<hewl>So Gnome is just a recommend of task-desktop? How does it become unselected when KDE or another DE is being installed?
07:45<Echoz>hewl: or rather tasksel could have had an option to view the info about a package
07:46<Echoz>hewl: because in the info of task-desktop it says "Recommends: task-gnome-desktop | task-xfce-desktop" and so on
07:46<Echoz>the | meaning "or", like in many programming languages
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07:46<hewl>Ah, I understand that.
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07:47<hewl>tasksel is a little program in of itself which decides which task-desktop to install, if no specific DE is selected in Debian installer it defaults to task-desktop which includes GNOME as a recommend.
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07:48<Echoz>rather tasksel is what you see if you run the netinstall, a nice interface to select a DE and some services. what packages are installed is handled by apt-get,
07:49<Echoz>since the default behavior of apt-get is to satisfy "recommends" dependencies, it picks the first one in the list
07:54<hewl>ah yes, I just presumed everyone would see the netinstall because that's what I used
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08:00<Echoz>there's something i've been wanting to know, is it possible to run certain parts of the debian installer again, aside from tasksel? specifically network setup and partitioning. I really like those interfaces.
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08:03<hewl>Echoz: If you run the Debian installation media, go to advanced, the expert text based installer, you can just back out of the first step and then that should take you to the step select screen. You can individually select steps from there.
08:03<hewl>You'll still need to do some steps before others, though, like on a netinstall you need to connect to the internet before you can download packages.
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08:04<Echoz>hewl: I know, but I would like to be able to run these things on my existing installations, say if i wanted to partition a storage device or something like that. the interfaces are just so damn cozy
08:04<jm_>it's not, we often had people asking if there's an interface for configurng networking like in the installer - there used to be etherconf, but it was removed
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08:06<hewl>That's a shame. Maybe you could do some hacky thing and run a virtual disc of the installer and hook it up to your hard-drive and set some scripts to make it run from a single command in bash or something.
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08:11<Echoz>package "configure-debian" seems to do part of what I want, at least
08:11<Echoz>haven't explored all of its possibilities yet, though
08:12<hewl>Reading the description for it, it seems to be exactly what you want.
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08:14<EmleyMoor>Great, the backup of this machine has concluded. I doubt sshfs from the laptop will be a problem but I'll see
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08:14<hewl>backups are always a good idea
08:15<EmleyMoor>hewl: They are, but they were contributing to the machine on which they are stored overheating (to shutoff point)
08:16<hewl>How much were you backing up, and what method were you using? If your machine is overheating from data transfer then I'd look into that.
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08:17<EmleyMoor>Compressed size of backup of this machine is 250GB, tar.bz2 using a simple backup script I wrote myself
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08:19<hewl>EmleyMoor: Check your hardware fans to see if they're still functioning and make sure you don't use the laptop in environments where it can quickly accumalate heat. Does it still have warranty? Or has it been voided?
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08:19<EmleyMoor>Not the laptop that's overheating
08:19<EmleyMoor>All fans on the desktop work
08:20<hewl>EmleyMoor: Custom built?
08:20<EmleyMoor>Looks like backing up the laptop isn't going to overheat the desktop. Yes, custom built.
08:22<EmleyMoor>I am planning a recase, just as soon as I can find a case that is accommodating enough.
08:23<hewl>I recently got an ARC by Fractal and it's been serving me well. If you need a lot of space then ARC MIDI R2 would provide.
08:26<EmleyMoor>hewl: Need to see how the 3.5" drive bays are used
08:26<hewl>Have you any specific questions? I've got the case on hand.
08:27<EmleyMoor>Well, how in your case are the drives fitted and connected?
08:28<hewl>There's 8 bays total, 5 of which can be removed if unnecessary. They sit near the front of the case and can be rotated 90 degrees, which helps if you don't have much cable slack for some reason.
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08:28<hewl>Right now I'm using the bottom 3 bays to hold my 3.5" hard drive and 2.5" SATA drive. The bays can accomodate for both. The 3.5" is also suspended with rubber feet to reduce noise production.
08:28<EmleyMoor>... OK, but assuming I have plenty, what's (a) the fitting (b) the connecting of the drives like?
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08:30<hewl>Drives can be inserted facing either way, they're mounted onto a bracket which you then slide into the slots of the case itself.
08:31<EmleyMoor>hewl: So, I could put the cables on from the left, as it were, and hot swapping wouldn't be difficult?
08:31<hewl>You can also slide the bottom 3 drive bays to be a bit closer to the motherboard, to either make way for a water pump at the front or to just get it closer.
08:32<hewl>If you want to be able to hotswap, you can remove the front grill+fan and have easy access to all the drive bays.
08:33<hewl>I'd suggest having the air intake in another location then. If you only want to have a few bays hotswappable then you can keep the fan in.
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08:33<hewl>Alternatively install 7 fans and watch your computer suspend itself mid-air.
08:33<EmleyMoor>No, I'd actually be wanting to use all those bays
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08:34<hewl>Then moving the fan to another location would be what you'd have to do.
08:34<hewl>The front grill comes out by just pushing it in/out with a push switch. No tools or anything.
08:35<EmleyMoor>I don't mind taking one side off to swap a drive... it's actually a rare need
08:35<hewl>It has those screws that can be undone by hand if you need to take off a side. Or you could just leave it clipped in without screws if you need to take it off often.
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08:36<EmleyMoor>The main problem with cases I've tried is that the lower of my 4-in-3 drive bays actually blocks the SATA ports on my motherboard in most cases.
08:36<EmleyMoor>(if it even goes fully home)
08:36<hewl>What size motherboard you have?
08:37<hewl>Most these days are mini ATX
08:37<EmleyMoor>With that case I could avoid using them
08:37<EmleyMoor>This is a full ATX
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08:37<hewl>Retro. How many PCI ports would that have? Anyway a bit off track, ARC has a lot of leeway for the motherboard. The PSU actually fits in under it.
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08:39<EmleyMoor>hewl: That's actually beent the cause of the problem on many cases. The ones with the PSU below are the ones with not enough clearance between motherboard and drive bays
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08:42<hewl>Well, the case is pretty large and the drive bays do not sit in front of the motherboard. There's plenty of room. I remember a good Youtube video that showed it off, give me a sec.
08:43<hewl>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4WIiNB2HRE
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08:47<hewl>Ah, I should go now. Time's slipped me by.
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08:48<scootergrisen>If i try a Debian Cinnamon live image i get "Cinnamon just crahsed" dialog. So i can't even try it out. Properly because of display driver problems. I have "[AMD/ATI] Madison [Mobility Radeon HD 5650/5750 / 6530M/6550M]". Should i write a bug about this?
08:49<scootergrisen>And how do i make it work so i can try the live disc
08:49<hewl>There isn't a live image of Debian, though?
08:50<peter1138>there is, live install image
08:50<scootergrisen>http://cdimage.debian.org/debian-cd/current-live/i386/iso-hybrid/
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08:51<hewl>Ah, yes that one. Sorry, slipped my mind. I'm too tired to really offer any help atm, so good bye.
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08:51<scootergrisen>hehe :)
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08:52<scootergrisen>How come i can boot the other live images lke xfce just fine but the cinnamon fails?
08:53<scootergrisen>Also do anyone know what LibreOffice does not include the translations for other languages? Same for Firefox. Would it not bee a good idea to include the translations for the software that is included?
08:54<petn-randall>scootergrisen: They are in separate packages.
08:56<aV>hi there
08:56<scootergrisen>Any reason why not to include them? Other then they use extra space
08:56<petn-randall>scootergrisen: Look at the firefox-l10n-* packages, or firefox-esr-l10n-*, or libreoffice-l10n-*, and libreoffice-help-*
08:56<petn-randall>scootergrisen: replace the * with all, and that meta-package will just pull in all the others.
08:56<scootergrisen>Yeah yeah i know but i'm just saying if Firefox is included in Debian by default would it not be a good idea to also include the translations
08:57<petn-randall>scootergrisen: It's not included by default? You have to choose to install it.
08:58<scootergrisen>Firefox is included but its in english even when i run GNOME or what ever in my language
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08:59<Echoz>I agree that they should include the language you've chosen, but not every language
08:59<scootergrisen>If i try a live image it would be nice to have all translations included so all the software are using my language and i dont have to have internet connection and know how to download stuff in order to use the software in my language
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09:00<scootergrisen>Are there Debian images where all the translations are included by default?
09:00<Echoz>scootergrisen: possibly the DVD sets, however these are not live images
09:01<aV>I installed qBittorrent and some of the dependencies that has been installed are: libqtcore4 libqtgui4 libqtdbus4 libqt4-dbus libqt4-network libqt4-xml
09:02<aV>do u know some program that make use of Qt5?
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09:02<aV>qBittrorrent runs ok
09:02<themill>aV: which release of debian?
09:03<scootergrisen>I have SMPlayer 16.9.0 that uses Qt 5.3.2
09:03<aV>is embedded, debian 7
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09:03<themill>aV: you won't find much in wheezy that is using qt5
09:03<aV>i will try that
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09:03<aV>hmmm
09:04<Echoz>smplayer is using qt4 even in jessie
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09:04<themill>there are some qt5 packages in wheezy-backports so there are probably a couple of things available there
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09:06<Echoz>sdrangelove uses qt5 in jessie, no idea what it is, though
09:06<scootergrisen>There are info to install latest SMPlayer here i think: https://software.opensuse.org/download.html?project=home%3Asmplayerdev&package=smplayer
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09:07<scootergrisen>Where should i report bug for Debian Cinnamon?
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09:11<scootergrisen>Where would be the correct place to suggest included translations for all the software that Debian images comes with?
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09:12<matrix>hi
09:12<scootergrisen>Are there any smart way to tell the system to get all the translations for all the software the system have?
09:12<scootergrisen>hi
09:13<scootergrisen>Without having to know the packages name for each program
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09:20<EmleyMoor>Hmmm... after all that, my preferred supplier sell that case - just hadn't realised it was suitable.
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10:47<Guest1288>fiero
10:48<itd>Guest1288: hello. :)
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10:49<Guest1288>yo
10:49<Echoz>Guest1288: hi
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11:41<gebruiker>the package gtk2-engines-ubuntulooks contains the ambient theme from ubuntu?
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11:45<itd>gebruiker: what do you mean with 'ambient theme'? (according to the package description the 'human' theme should be in there.)
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11:45<gebruiker>itd, that is what the theme is called in ubuntu
11:45<gebruiker>ambient theme is the default ubuntu theme you get in unity, mate etc..
11:46<gebruiker>itd, http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-aMAtcUoyVIA/TgysowrajLI/AAAAAAAACSQ/AyBb9hOc5w8/s1600/Nautilus+Elementary+Ambiance_PPA.png
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11:51<lostatwork>that package does not contain that theme
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11:53<itd>gebruiker: maybe murrine-themes? https://packages.debian.org/jessie/murrine-themes (with screenshots to compare it..)
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12:22<Megaf>ok folks
12:22<Megaf>so, my touch pad no longer works on Debian, why
12:22<Megaf>help me track down the problem please
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12:23<blast007>Megaf: had it worked on Debian before? what changed since then? did you verify it's not just turned off with a switch, button, or key combo (Fn+F6 or similar)?
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12:26<Megaf>blast007: good begining, thanks of that
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12:27<Megaf>so, let's do this
12:27<Megaf>blast007: it used to work very well indeed, on Debian Wheezy, Jessie and Sid
12:27<Megaf>it worked in the bast on Jessie with backports too
12:27<Megaf>but now, maybe from 2 or 3 months ago, it no logner works on Jessie
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12:28<Megaf>Im using Jessie with backports, but I dont know if it stopped working after backports or before
12:28<Megaf>blast007: the fn key has no effect at all in the touchpad, never had on this laptop
12:28<Megaf>and, the hardware itself is detected
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12:31<blast007>you could narrow down if it's some configuration change or backported packages by booting off a Debian Live DVD to see if it works from a clean environment. Otherwise, there might be some useful info in this:
12:31<blast007>!synaptics
12:31<dpkg>Synaptics is an X.org driver for laptop touchpads/trackpads. Install the xserver-xorg-input-synaptics package and "man synaptics" for driver options; configuration tools include synclient and gpointing-device-settings. http://wiki.debian.org/SynapticsTouchpad . See also <clickpad>, <trackpoint>.
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12:32<Megaf>tried that and some solutions we find online,
12:32<Megaf>didnt try a livedvd yet
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12:41<petn-randall>Megaf: Other thing I can think of is that you can turn it off in the BIOS.
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12:42<Megaf>petn-randall: no settings for that in the bios
12:43<Megaf>but thinking about it, it doesnt work on windows 10 either, so hm
12:43<Megaf>(I dont have windows 10 anymore)
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12:47<petn-randall>Megaf: Do you mean you tested it in Windows 10 as you still had it?
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12:48<blast007>does it have the 'double tap in the top left corner to enable/disable' feature?
12:49<blast007>what laptop model is this?
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13:13<guilherme>Hi, I found an error: "device descriptor read/64, error -110" at dmesg and I belive it is related to my bluetooth card (Atheros). How can I fix it? or how can I be sure about the source of this error?
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13:16<itd>guilherme: error -110 seems to indicate that your USB port does not have enough power for the device plugged in.
13:17<Prefab>hello, I'm fairly new to linux. I'm trying to make iron my default browser, but the button inside the application doesn't do anything. I've searched online and found that i should use update-alternatives. I'm probably doing something wrong, but this doesn't seems to fix anything... in fact, when i do update-alternatives --remove-all x-www-browser... the preferred applications still says firefox is used for web... Am I misinformed,
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13:19<Prefab>What i mean is... when i remove all... nothing changes, so it seems like this has nothing to do with debian recognizing which browser to use
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13:21<guilherme>itd: ok, I read that somewhere, but I tried to disconnect every external usb devices and the error persists. I guess it is internal usb
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13:23<guilherme>how can I verify the source of this error?
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13:23<itd>guilherme: you could try to plug it into an external *powered* usb adapter (which in turn is plugged into your pc) and see if the error persists.
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13:25<itd>guilherme: I had a similar issue with an external hard disk that would not work because the port would only deliver as much power as required by the specification - but that was not enough for this disk...
13:25<itd>Prefab: how did you install the srware iron browser?
13:25<guilherme>itd: The error just appears when the system starts and not while I am using the system.
13:25<Prefab>by using dpkg -i iron.deb
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13:26<Prefab>to be sure i used apt -f install, but that didn't have to repair anything
13:26<guilherme>itd: The problem is that I do not have any drive connected. It should be something internal
13:28-!-mode/#debian [+l 753] by debhelper
13:29<itd>guilherme: I wanted to say: maybe the problem is that your port only gives as much power as required by the USB standard but the device demands more. (so: yes, something internal but not necessarily something you can change.)
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13:31<guilherme>ok, ok, thanks I see
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13:33<itd>guilherme: I might be wrong. (I do hope so for your sake. ;)) What kind of hardware does this debian run on?
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13:34<itd>Prefab: so something external, okay. Don't know about the 'remove-all' part, but I think 'update-alternatives --config x-www-browser' should work.
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13:36<Prefab>that says: there are no alternatives
13:36<Prefab>at least... it did... i had to manually install iron using update-alternatives --install
13:37<Prefab>now it does inculed iron in the list when i use --configure... the problem is... it doesn't change anything
13:38<guilherme>itd: it is a notebook i7, 16Gb RAM 1 SSD 64GB, HDD 1TB, GeForce GT 750M and Atheros AR9485 Wireless Network Adapter
13:38<Prefab>firefox is still the only option in the preferred applications gui
13:38<itd>Prefab: would you mind posting the output of 'update-alternatives --config x-www-browser' to paste.debian.net? Also, which GUI are you talking about? :)
13:40<itd>guilherme: I think I got you wrong. Let me re-read our dialog, please. ;)
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13:41<guilherme>itd: ok, please, do not worry :)
13:42<Prefab>ohw I'm currently on my windows machine again
13:42<kang0>Anyone from Europe?
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13:43<Prefab>i mean when you go to settings manager in for example mate... and then click preferred applications
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13:43<itd>kang0: maybe, but if you want to chat please do so in #debian-offtopic :)
13:43<Prefab>itd: I'll go downstairs and tun the computer on, just a sec
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13:45<itd>guilherme: Could you please post the output of 'lsusb' on paste.debian.net?
13:46<guilherme>itc: here it is http://paste.debian.net/857864/
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13:51<itd>guilherme: what makes you think that the error is related to your bluetooth device?
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13:52<Prefab2>http://paste.debian.net/857866/
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13:54<Prefab2>when i use --get-selections, x-www-browser isn't even listed
13:55<Prefab2>still, firefox shows up in the preferred applications
13:55<Prefab2>http://paste.debian.net/857868/
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13:56<itd>Prefab2: what is the output of 'dpkg -L iron | grep desktop'?
13:56<Prefab2>i also used --remove-all on gnome-www-browser... that's why that isn't listed either
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13:58<Prefab2>"/usr/share/applications/iron.desktop /usr/share/applications/iron_backup.desktop"
13:58<itd>Prefab2: could you please post /usr/share/applications/iron.desktop
14:00<Prefab2>it's not there
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14:00<itd>Prefab2: and the backup one?
14:00<Prefab2>yet, it shows up in the application launcher and it can be launched (i'm using iron right now to chat in this irc)
14:01<Prefab2>same
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14:01<Prefab2>i do however have a /usr/share/iron folder
14:02<Prefab2>inside that folder is a file named iron
14:02<Prefab2>if i go to that folder and use ./iron
14:02<Prefab2>iron will launch
14:02<Prefab2>the backup file is in that folder as well
14:03<lindi-_>Prefab2: sounds very broken
14:03<itd>Prefab2: I guess it would be simpler if you would stick with packages from the repository... Can you please reinstall iron?
14:03<Prefab2>it's called ironConfigBackup
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14:04<lindi-_>Prefab2: no package in debian comes with the file "iron.desktop" so this must be some completely unofficial package I guess?
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14:04<Prefab2>the whole point of this is that i'm trying to learn how to install packages that are not available in the repository... this is essential for me... if i can't do that, i will not be able to leave windows behind
14:04<itd>guilherme: are you still there? :)
14:05<lindi-_>Prefab2: such packages can be of very low quality
14:05<lindi-_>Prefab2: so they can behave in very confusing ways
14:05<Prefab2>also... this is my browser of choice... it's a bit silly to stop using it, just because it's not conventional to install external programs in linux
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14:06<lindi-_>Prefab2: sure, no need to stop using it, just pointing out that it's very hard for people to support something like that here
14:07<Prefab2>hmmm
14:07<guilherme>itd: yes, I am
14:07<Prefab2>i really want to stop using windows :(
14:07<guilherme>itd: sorry for my delay
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14:07<itd>guilherme: good, no worries. :)
14:08<lindi-_>Prefab2: installing debian packages from random sources in general just leads to various problems
14:08<Prefab2>but what you're saying is that i need a iron.desktop file in the /usr/share/applications folder?
14:08<lindi-_>Prefab2: which are very hard to diagnoze and fix especially without source code
14:09<lindi-_>Prefab2: you probably should be able to install the browser to your home directory
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14:09<lindi-_>Prefab2: but maybe asking on iron forums might work better
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14:10<itd>Prefab2: maybe. wanted to compare it to other *.dektop files. where did you get this strange package?
14:11<lindi-_>itd: probably http://www.srware.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=9549
14:11<Prefab2>from their web site... that's the only way i could find it
14:11<Prefab2>yes exactly
14:11<Prefab2>but the 53 version instead of this one
14:11<lindi-_>Prefab2: yeah, that's breaking probably almost every part of the debian policy manual so we really can't know what it even does to your system
14:11<Prefab2>http://www.srware.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=10265
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14:14<Prefab2>I am using a testing computer so I am not worried about what it does to my system... I'm just trying to learn how to integrate external programs into linux using iron as an example
14:14<guilherme>itd: I have to go soon. Are you going to stay at that time tomorrow?
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14:16<Prefab2>what about visual studio code?... that's also not available in the repository... it's not that weird that i would like to use a program like that right? the only way i know of is to download it from their website and install it
14:16<itd>guilherme: I don't know that yet, but there will probably be other (more wise) people here then. :)
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14:19<itd>Prefab2: don't expect linux to be like windows. tools will have different names, may not exist (or even better solutions might be available).
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14:19<Prefab2>how do you guys deal with a situation like that? you want to use some software that is not available in the repository... do you just decide not to use it or is there another solution... if linux is about giving up when it's not in the repository, i'll be forced to keep using windows :(
14:20<lindi-_>Prefab2: for starters, this channel is for debian stable, not debian testing. there's #debian-next for debian testing
14:21<Prefab2>i don't expect linux to be like windows... i expect it to be better, safer and more logical than windows (as long as you put some effort into it... which i'm willing to do)
14:21<jelly>Prefab2: it depends. Debian is supposed to be a universal OS, and an OS isn't very useful if you can't run the stuff you want on it
14:22<Prefab2>I am running debian stable
14:22<jelly>there are various methods on keeping track of software that doesn't come from debian, or isn't built specifically with debian in mind
14:22<lindi-_>Prefab2: ah ok, got confused when you mentioned testing
14:22<jelly>eg.
14:22<jelly>!stow
14:22<dpkg>rumour has it, stow is a nifty program used to manage a /usr/local/ hierarchy. It keeps all the programs separate, so you can install and remove them without playing the "which program does that file belong to" game; ask me about <stow usage>. http://www.gnu.org/software/stow . See also <usrlocal>, <uupdate>, <checkinstall>.
14:22<Prefab2>yes exactly... it wouldn't be useful at all :S so how do i cope with this situation?
14:22<lindi-_>jelly: but stow only applies to software you can build from source
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14:22<EmleyMoor>I use xstow rather than stow
14:22<lindi-_>jelly: this iron browser comes with a binary package
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14:23<jelly>the package can be fixed, then
14:23<lindi-_>jelly: not without source :)
14:23<jelly>the packaging _itself_ can be fixed.
14:23<itd>Prefab2: source is a magic word. you build your software from source (translate human readable text into binary). If something is not available (and no promising alternative is in sight) I try to build the program from its source.
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14:24<lindi-_>jelly: but we don't have the packaging source either
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14:24<jelly>lindi-_: and you don't need it, there's dpkg-deb --extract and --control and --build
14:24<lindi-_>itd: however that's not really a practical option when we are talking about the iron browser
14:24<lindi-_>jelly: well ok, I guess you can reverse engineer it
14:24<Prefab2>keep in mind that i'm fairly new to linux
14:25<itd>lindi-_: I guess this would be a case of 'promising alternative is in sight' ;)
14:25<jelly>I repack lots of crappy commercial software that comes in .rpm or .tar.gz
14:25<guilherme>itd: thanks a lot! see you :)
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14:26<jelly>add saner control files and install scripts, a bit of extra cron jobs, some symlinks to make things slightly more FHS-y
14:26<Prefab2>it doesn't have to be easy, but each time i come across some software that isn't in the repositories, i can't go and build everything from source... it also feels kind of dull, since they actually provide a working .deb file... i only need to tell linux to use that program by default system wide... that shouldn't be impossible i think
14:26<itd>Prefab2: I try. Thus my recommendation: use chromium or firefox for some time. Have a look at e.g. privoxy to improve your privacy. Don't use external software for some months look for alternatives.
14:27<lindi-_>Prefab2: but it's not really a working .deb file, right?
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14:27<jelly>Prefab2: if their desktop files are broken, you can report that to the vendor and provide working versions
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14:27<itd>Prefab2: don't do two steps at once. first step: use linux. second step: learn to build software
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14:28<jelly>if they're putting executables elsewhere than the default PATH, that can be fixed with a symlink or a wrapper script
14:28<itd>Prefab2: Oh, and: Welcome!
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14:29<lindi-_>related comic: http://xkcd.com/
14:30<GLolol>always relatable^^^
14:30<jelly>it they're not providing an alternative for x-www-browser, then I guess you can do that as well. google-chrome has decent packaging. Hell even Opera used to have very good packages.
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14:31<lindi-_>doesn't google chrome modify your apt configuration?
14:31<Prefab2>I'm getting confused... are you guys saying that there is no way to integrate this program (that launches and works fine... i can browse the web, i can talk to you guys, etc...) into my linux installation? :S
14:32<itd>why not chromium? :)
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14:32<Prefab2>that's not the question
14:32<lindi-_>Prefab2: no but the people who made that .deb package clearly did not do the job correctly
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14:32<itd>Prefab2: it is a lot of work
14:32<lindi-_>Prefab2: and they are not sharing the packaging source code so that others could easily understand why it does not work
14:32<jelly>Prefab2: I'm saying if google can do it, and if debian-shipped browsers can do it, it can obviously be done so the question is "how exactly"
14:33<Prefab2>let's say for some magical reason i wanted to use THIS program (e.g. srware iron) and no other program... is there a way?
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14:33<lindi-_>Prefab2: probably but it requires you to understand how things should work and then you need to study what the package does wrong
14:33<jelly>eg. google-chrome-stable ships "/usr/share/gnome-control-center/default-apps/google-chrome.xml" for gnome
14:34<Prefab2>and that's why i'm here... to learn
14:34<lindi-_>Prefab2: I'd start by understanding the .desktop file format
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14:34<jelly>I don't use Gnome. the x-www-browser thing works for me, in xfce.
14:34<lindi-_>jelly: that won't work for modern desktop stuff
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14:34<lindi-_>jelly: you need a desktop file
14:35<jelly>lindi-_: it also ships a .desktop file.
14:35<lindi-_>jelly: yep but it's probably somewhat buggy
14:35<jelly>it doesn't look buggy to me.
14:35<lindi-_>ok
14:35<jelly>right click from eg. this very irc client to open a link in browser, opens it in Chrome
14:36<Prefab2>so how is this .desktop file being used?
14:36<Prefab2>i'll do some research on .desktop files later, but i need to know the context
14:36<lindi-_>Prefab2: the environment variable XDG_DATA_DIRS lists directories that are searched for the file "applications/defaults.list"
14:37<lindi-_>Prefab2: the defaults.list file associates MIME types to desktop files
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14:37<lindi-_>Prefab2: for example /usr/share/gnome/applications/defaults.list has a line that says text/html=iceweasel.desktop
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14:39<jelly>typically your desktop environment has a control panel, and the preferred apps can be set, per user, _somewhere_ in that control panel
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14:39<Prefab2>there is no applications folder in /usr/share/gnome on my system
14:39<jelly>those settings are then stored somewhere like $HOME/.local/share/applications/defaults.list
14:40<lindi-_>Prefab2: /usr/share/gnome/applications/defaults.list is part of the default installation if you use gnome3
14:40<jelly>Prefab2: locate applications/defaults.list
14:40<lindi-_>Prefab2: are you using something else than gnome3?
14:40<Prefab2>i'm on mate right now
14:40<lindi-_>mate?
14:40<lindi-_>then I have no idea how it works, sorry
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14:40<Prefab2>but i want to use xfce in the future
14:41<jelly>xfce has xfce4-settings-manager -> Personal -> Preferred Applications
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14:41<jelly>it's very obvious
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14:44<Prefab2>yes... and the point is that iron isn't listed in these preferred applications, nor does changing stuff with update-alternatives have any effect on this preferred applications list
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14:45<Prefab2>where does preferred applications look for the firefox.desktop file?
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14:45<Prefab2>ho does it know to list firefox?
14:46<Prefab2>how*
14:46<lostatwork>programming magic
14:47<jelly>the .desktop file format may (should?) list mime types it can show
14:47<jelly>it it can view text/html, it's probably a web browser.
14:48<jelly>apparently there are also settings to specify which url schemes it may support
14:48<jelly>(like http:// and https:// and gopher://)
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14:50<Prefab2>yeah so there is a firefox.desktop file... how does preferred applications know... "hey i should list that firefox.desktop file in my list" ?
14:51<Prefab2>and not... " hey i should list leafpad.desktop" for example
14:51<Prefab2>i don't get where this is configured
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14:52<itd>Prefab2: well there is a specification here: https://specifications.freedesktop.org/desktop-entry-spec/desktop-entry-spec-latest.html
14:53<Prefab2>that's info on the actual content of the file
14:54<Prefab2>i need to know how "debian" knows that this particular .desktop is of any interest concerning the default program for the web entry
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14:55<jhutchins>I'm running XFCE4 and in Thunar I can extract archives (uses Ark), but when I try to right-click and create an archive, I get "No suitable archive manager found." All the "solutions" I find are for failing to extract.
14:56<jhutchins>Prefab2: I think the standards for .desktop files and such are at http://freedesktop.org - but not everybody follows the standards.
14:57<jhutchins>Prefab2: I think there's a hierarchy of what looks where for the files.
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14:58<lindi-_>jhutchins: it's the XDG_DATA_DIRS environment variable that is configured differently in each desktop environment
14:58<Prefab2>ok let me put it differently... let's say i would know how to make a proper .desktop file for iron... from there... i have iron.desktop... what should i do with it... how do i use this file that i just made, such that iron get's listed in the preferred applications list?
14:59<lindi-_>Prefab2: start from a working .desktop file
14:59<Prefab2>yeah i know
14:59<Prefab2>but what do i do with it after i finished making it?
14:59<Prefab2>i'm not asking how to make such a file
14:59<lindi-_>iron.desktop does not mention any mime types at all
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15:00<Prefab2>huh?
15:00<lindi-_>yeah
15:00<itd>Prefab2: put it in one of the $XDG_DATA_DIRS/applications/
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15:00<lindi-_>Prefab2: yeah, it's 12 lines and none of them even mentions HTML
15:01<Prefab2>what does $XDG_DATA_DIRS mean?
15:01<lindi-_>Prefab2: compare that to for example /usr/share/applications/chromium.desktop and you see the difference
15:01<mots>It means /usr/share/.
15:01<Prefab2>lindi, please stop explaining things about the contents of .desktop files... it's really confusing me a lot
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15:01<lindi-_>mots: huh? he should not need to modify anything outside home to do this
15:02<lindi-_>Prefab2: well, if you want to understand how this works you need to be prepared for confusion :)
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15:02<Prefab2>yeah but when i'm asking questions about the use of .desktop files, it isn't really helpful when you start explaining their contents
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15:03<lindi-_>Prefab2: well, that file is broken, you need to fix it if you want it to show up in preferred applications for web browser
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15:04<Prefab2>but ok, so step 1: I have a proper iron.desktop file. step 2
15:04<Prefab2>step 2: i put it in /usr/share/applications
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15:04<Prefab2>step 3: everything (should) work(s) ?
15:04<Echoz>is it exclusive to your user or can any user run it?
15:04<Echoz>if exclusive to your user you should put it in ~/.local/share/applications
15:05<Prefab2>lindi, that's of later concern
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15:05<Prefab2>ah ok
15:06<Prefab2>yeah i'd rather have it exclusive to my user
15:07<Prefab2>so when i put a proper .desktop file in ~/.local/share/applications... it will be listed in the preferred applications list from the gui?
15:07<Echoz>Prefab2: Yes
15:07<Prefab2>(for my user)
15:07<Prefab2>ah ok that's all i needed :D
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15:11<Prefab2>so when i came into this channel and asked how i could integrate external programs (e.g. programs that are not available in the repositories) into linux, the answer simply was: "make sure you have a proper .desktop file and put it in ~/.local/share/applications, then go to preferred applications in the gui and select your new program"
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15:11<lindi-_>2016-01-20 16:32:18|#debian|lindi-|mais: 1) Copy the .desktop file to $HOME/.local/share/applications/ 2) Run the command update-desktop-database $HOME/.local/share/applications 3) Visit Details/Default applications and choose Firefox
15:11<ach><hi
15:12<ach>lindi-_ hi
15:12<lindi-_>Prefab2: there's one more step, you need to run update-desktop-database. see the above ^
15:12<Prefab2>ah ok
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15:13<Prefab2>how come i have to specify the path?
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15:13<lindi-_>Prefab2: the path?
15:13<Prefab2>isn't the desktop database inherent to ~/.local/applications and /usr/share/applications?
15:14<lindi-_>Prefab2: ?
15:14<Prefab2>update-desktop-database $HOME/.local/share/applications
15:14<Prefab2>here you specify a path
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15:14<Prefab2>namely $HOME/.local/share/applications
15:14<Prefab2>isn't that obvious? why do i have to tell linux to look there?
15:15<lindi-_>Prefab2: I think by default it tries to update the system-wide database
15:15<Prefab2>since we're talking about the context of a desktop database that needs to be updated
15:15<lindi-_>Prefab2: see "man update-desktop-database"
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15:15<Prefab2>ah ok
15:15<caraka>The databases in [/usr/share/gnome/applications, /usr/local/share/applications, /usr/share/applications] could not be updated.
15:15<caraka>^ if you run it naked as a normal user
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15:16<caraka>with the path, all is well
15:16<lindi-_>Prefab2: but it was a good question
15:17<Prefab2>what happens if i put in a path that isn't one of those 3?
15:17<lindi-_>Prefab2: for update-desktop-database?
15:17<caraka>If you use the path specified by lindi_ above, all will be well (and updated)
15:17<Prefab2>yes
15:18<Prefab2>i will use that path, i'm just curious what will happen if i don't :P
15:18<lindi-_>Prefab2: well, if the directory contains .desktop files it will create a cache there
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15:18<lindi-_>Prefab2: if it does not contain any .desktop files it will create an empty cache there
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15:19<Prefab2>so then there will be 4 paths listed if you use the command again without any arguments?
15:20<lindi-_>Prefab2: nope
15:20<Prefab2>ohw
15:20<caraka>Just to explore further, woud this unique cache have to be in your path for the desktops to show up as per normal?
15:20<lindi-_>caraka: it's just a file named "mimeinfo.cache" in the directory
15:21<lindi-_>caraka: it's just an optimization so that you don't need to parse all of the .desktop files again and again
15:21<caraka>I shall experiment, as I keep desktop files in ~/bin on Ubuntu without a problem, but that trick doesn;t work on my debian
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15:21<lindi-_>caraka: the directory has to be named "applications" I think
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15:22<lindi-_>caraka: and it needs to be listed in $XDG_DATA_DIRS
15:22<caraka>gotcha - that all makes sense
15:22<lindi-_>please correct my if I'm wrong
15:22<lindi-_>s/my/me/
15:22-!-hiwakh [~hiwakh@217-212-210-190-no145.tbcn.telia.com] has quit []
15:22<lindi-_>but I guess you can create a symlink to your ~/bin named "applications"
15:23<caraka>I'll play with it out of curiosity. I've always just logged out and in after updating a desktop file in debian
15:23<caraka>(which resides in .local/share/app etc
15:23<Prefab2>where can i find this $XDG_DATA_DIRS?
15:24<Prefab2>ohw wait
15:24<Prefab2>that was /usr/share right?
15:24<caraka>this is why I lurk. Other people's questions teach things. Thanks Prefab2
15:24<lindi-_>Prefab2: no
15:24<lindi-_>Prefab2: use the "env" command to see environment variables
15:24<Prefab2>haha no problem caraka :)
15:24<caraka>^
15:24<lindi-_>Prefab2: XDG_DATA_DIRS contains a list of directories
15:24<itd>Prefab2: or execute 'echo $XDG_DATA_DIRS' in a terminal.
15:24<lindi-_>Prefab2: it's not a single directory
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15:25<Prefab2>ah ok
15:26<caraka>interesting that ~/.local/share doesn;t appear in there
15:26<Prefab2>env doesn't show XDG_DATA_DIRS
15:26<lindi-_>caraka: $XDG_DATA_HOME defines the base directory relative to which user specific data files should be stored. If $XDG_DATA_HOME is either not set or empty, a default equal to $HOME/.local/share should be used.
15:26<lindi-_>caraka: -- https://specifications.freedesktop.org/basedir-spec/basedir-spec-latest.html
15:27<lindi-_>caraka: "$XDG_DATA_DIRS defines the preference-ordered set of base directories to search for data files in addition to the $XDG_DATA_HOME base directory."
15:27<caraka>ah, different env variable
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15:27<caraka>learning still more, thanks!
15:27<lindi-_>Prefab2: then it's no wonder that things don't work
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15:27<lindi-_>Prefab2: now you need some mate expert
15:27<Prefab2>ah ok
15:27<Prefab2>well.. i don't like mate anyway :P
15:28<lindi-_>mate is basically gnome2, right?
15:28<lindi-_>I don't really remember how they did things
15:28<Prefab2>i'm gonna do a reinstall soon enough
15:28<Prefab2>as far as i know, yes
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15:29<caraka>try env | grep XDG just in case you missed it
15:30<lindi-_>I used a plain window manager (wmaker) for a long time but then jumped to gnome3 a few years ago since I wanted to learn how the mainstream stuff works
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15:31<Prefab2>yep, no XDG_DATA_DIRS :P
15:32<Prefab2>ohw well... i'm gonna have to do some research on .desktop files now
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15:32<Prefab2>ohw yeah... i remember what i wanted to ask: How come the files in /usr/share/applications don't show a .dektop file extenstion?
15:33<lindi-_>evolution: http://lindi.iki.fi/lindi/screenshot-2004-08-10.png => http://lindi.iki.fi/lindi/screenshot-2006-12-15.png => http://lindi.iki.fi/lindi/screenshot-2012-05-30.png
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15:34<Prefab2>probably mate as well right?
15:34<lindi-_>Prefab2: that was real gnome2 in 2012
15:34<caraka>No, that's true on Jessie and Xenial too
15:34<Prefab2>ohw ok
15:34<Prefab2>how come?
15:35<caraka>,desktop extension disappears when in applications folder or when made executable
15:35<caraka>don;t know why :D
15:35<Prefab2>in terminal it says .desktop at the end... in filemanager it doesn't... weird :S
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15:36<Prefab2>anyway, thanks a lot for helping me everybody... i will use this knowledge to convert more people to the linux side and make the world a better place :D
15:36<caraka>amen brother
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15:36<jhutchins>Prefab2: I think that means your file manager is interpreting the .desktop file and not just displaying it as a file.
15:37<Prefab2>ah makes sense
15:38<caraka>and that explains the differences between my Jessie bos and xenial. different file managers
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15:38<caraka>*box
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15:43<Prefab2>Ok, I'm of... thanks again for helping me out and see you guys next time :) Cheers!
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15:47<rno>uptime
15:48<demetris>am facing some compilation issues
15:49<demetris>can anyone help me out on an asm error?
15:49<demetris>error: invalid 'asm': invalid use of '%w'
15:49<demetris> __asm__ ("rorw $8, %w0" \
15:49<demetris>what package i might need?
15:49<demetris>and goes on
15:49<demetris>Error: unrecognized opcode `rorw $8,$17'
15:50<itd>demetris: what are you trying to compile?
15:51<demetris>a router image
15:51<demetris>if is possible can you point me where to ask for help
15:51<demetris>i know this is not a debian issue per se
15:52<itd>demetris: does this router image have a name? :)
15:52<demetris>sure
15:52<demetris>WiTi by MQmaker
15:53<demetris>itd: you want the sources?
15:53<itd>demetris: if you have a link to them, sure. :)
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15:56<demetris>question is can you help me itd ?
15:56<itd>demetris: I don't know that yet. :)
15:56<demetris>will you try build?
15:57<itd>demetris: Can't say that yet. I don't understand what you want to achieve.
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15:57<lindi-_>demetris: what architecture does your router use?
15:57<demetris>a binary file to use it on my router
15:58<demetris>mips
15:58<demetris>anyway
15:58<lindi-_>demetris: have you installed a mips toolchain?
15:58<demetris>here it is
15:58<demetris>i think so yes
15:58<demetris>can you tell me the package i need?
15:58<demetris>source
15:58<demetris>git clone http://git.code.sf.net/p/wive-ng/wive-ng-mt wive-ng-wive-ng-mt
15:59<demetris>and build with : ./compile MT7621-MT7602-MT7612-2T2R-16M-USB
15:59<lindi-_>demetris: I'm not sure if debian ships cross-compilers in stable yet
15:59<demetris>source has its own
15:59<demetris>thats the weird
16:00<lindi-_>demetris: source code comes with binaries?
16:00<demetris>toolchain
16:01<lindi-_>demetris: anyways, better paste the full build log somewhere
16:01<demetris>https://paste.ubuntu.com/23286096/
16:01<demetris>here it is
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16:01<lindi-_>demetris: that does not list any compiler commands at least
16:01<demetris>sec
16:02<lindi-_>demetris: use strace or something to see what compiler it actually runs
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16:02<itd>demetris: that repo is huge ...
16:02<demetris>aha
16:03<demetris>:)
16:03<lindi-_>yeah, since it contains binaries
16:03<demetris>hope you guys help me out at what i am missing
16:05<itd>demetris: well there is wive-ng.sourceforge.net is that the same project?
16:05<demetris>aha
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16:12<itd>demetris: are you aware of this: https://mqmaker.com/doc/make-your-own-image/ ?
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16:41<user>hi
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16:42<itd>hello user
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16:44<demetris>itd: thats ols news but thanks
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16:49<itd>demetris: anyway. there is a forum on the sourceforge page. ask there if you want. I'm afraid I cannot help you.
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16:53<_cpo_>hi
16:54<martin_>hi _cpo_
16:55<_cpo_>i've the following problem: i try to connect over wifi with wpa encryption the debian ap. but i get the following message: WPA: wpa_sm_step() called recursively. thx.
16:55<_cpo_>martin: hi, can you help me?:-)
16:56<martin_>I can't help but someone may be able to.
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16:56<_cpo_>martin: thx.:-)
16:58<itd>_cpo_: when do you get this information? (what do you do?)
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17:00<_cpo_>itd: 1. i try to connect with an android phone (copperhead os) and the phone says: authentication problem. 2. and with an ubuntu machine... and it connects/disconnects sometimes is the connection stable about 15 mins/ and sometimes shorter.
17:02<_cpo_>i've googled and found the solution to install haveged and rngd. but it doesn't makes it better.:-)
17:03<itd>_cpo_: so, 3 devices. android, ubuntu and debian. the last with the access point (hostapd?)?
17:03<_cpo_>itd: i've changed the password on the AP, but the problem reproduces.
17:03<_cpo_>itd: yeah, debian with hostapd (freedombox).
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17:04<_cpo_>itd: the ap (fbx) is the also the wifi-ap and the router to the internet.
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17:05<_cpo_>itd: but, very strange is, some devices are connecting without problems. and the problem is since three days.
17:05<_cpo_>itd: :-)
17:05<itd>_cpo_: there should be #freedombox on this server. (see https://wiki.debian.org/FreedomBox/Support )
17:06<_cpo_>itd: the machine is an intel nuc with an integrated wifi controller: Network controller: Intel Corporation Wireless 3165 (rev 81) Subsystem: Intel Corporation Dual Band Wireless AC 3165
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17:06<itd>_cpo_: if you post the config file (w/o password, ...) on paste.debian.net I can give it a try if I see anything.
17:06<_cpo_>itd: i've tried it in #freedombox, but it seems not an fbx problem, more a hostapd or something problem.
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17:07<itd>_cpo_: which hostapd version?
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17:09<_cpo_>itd: yes, thx. i will paste it.
17:09<_cpo_>itd: Package: hostapd
17:09<_cpo_>Source: wpa (2.5-2+v2.4-3)
17:09<_cpo_>Version: 1:2.5-2+v2.4-3
17:11<itd>_cpo_: that would be a package from testing (and testing support is in #debian-next ;))
17:12<_cpo_>itd: hu, i'm sorry, thx! i'will run to #debian-next
17:12<_cpo_>itd: bye
17:12<itd>_cpo_: no worries. :)
17:12<itd>_cpo_: good luck :)
17:12<_cpo_>itd: thx.:-))))
17:13<EmleyMoor>Glad I got my backups to complete... hoping after my recase this machine won't overheat any more
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17:48<jhutchins>move window 10
17:48<jhutchins>sry
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18:18<Megaf>petn-randall: Hi
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18:18<Megaf>I mean, it didnt work on Windows 10
18:18<Megaf>the touchpad
18:19<Megaf>I will try livedvd on 30 minutes or so
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19:40<Megaf>Downloading Debian 8.5 Live and 8.6 Live
19:41<Megaf>too see if my touchpad will work on any of those, if not, will get then 8.4 and 8.3, and so on
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19:48<Jen>Hey!
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19:49<prasket>Hey back atcha
19:49<Jen>hru?
19:49<sney>!chat
19:49<dpkg>This is not a chat channel, this is a Debian user support channel. Unless you have a Debian support question, please chat elsewhere, like #moocows on irc.oftc.net or ##chat on irc.freenode.net.
19:49<Megaf>well, Debian 8.6 is borken
19:49<Megaf>I just got it and put on a flash drive, there is nothing to mount and it doesnt boot either
19:50<Megaf>broken*
19:50<Megaf>I used something equivalent to dd as I always do with Debian
19:50<Megaf>but it failed with Debian 8.6
19:50<Megaf>the amd64 iso
19:50<sney>did you checksum the iso after downloading it
19:51<Megaf>nope, but I actually tried twice in two different computers (download and dd)
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19:53<Megaf>sney: I just curl http://debian/debian.iso > /dev/sdb
19:53<Megaf>then sync
19:53<Megaf>thats how I install Debian since Debian 6
19:53<sney>yeah that should work ok
19:53<Megaf>Im Downloading 8.4 now, actually downloading it to the disk
19:54<Megaf>problem is, my flash drive is slower than the internet, so downloading and then dding doubles the time
19:55<Megaf>and Debian 8.5 ISO is timing out when it get to 30% of download
19:55<Megaf>common!
19:55<Megaf>http://caesar.acc.umu.se/mirror/cdimage/archive/8.5.0-live/amd64/iso-hybrid/debian-live-8.5.0-amd64-gnome-desktop.iso
19:55<Megaf>can you get me other mirror please? And european one
19:55<Jen>So, anyone doing anything (listening, drawing, etc..)?
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19:57<bremner>Megaf: sounds like you should use netinstall
19:58<bremner>also, https://www.debian.org/CD/http-ftp/index.en.html
19:58<Megaf>resuming the donwload. going well now I guess
19:58<bremner>there is literally a whole page of european mirrors
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19:59<Megaf>bremner: yep, but I want archive mirrors
19:59<Megaf>s/want/need
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20:06<Megaf>ok, dding debian 8.5 to two flashdrives, just in case
20:06<Megaf>should boot
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20:31<Megaf>8.5 not booting either
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20:31<Megaf>I dont know anymore if debian live can boot from usb...
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20:37<awal1>debian docs/wiki entries recommends cp instead of dd
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20:41<Megaf>well, debian 8.6 netinstall booted, but touchpad is not working
20:41<Megaf>will try 8.5 now
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20:51<Megaf>no touchpad on 8.5 either, lets try 8.4
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21:01<hewl>how does one configure the nouveau driver in Debian stable?
21:01<Megaf>8.4 not working either, will test on 7.11 now
21:01<Megaf>hewl: should work out of the box
21:02<hewl>Megaf: Having constant crashes of Xorg and anything which uses OpenGL.
21:02<Megaf>oh
21:03<hewl>Megaf: It isn't too important, if it's not working I will just go back to nvidia-driver.
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21:04<hewl>There doesn't seem to be a xorg.conf file to edit in /etc/X11 for nouveau like there was for nvidia-driver, which is why I don't know how to configure nouveau
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21:05<Megaf>hewl: you create one or edit the one in /usr/share/X(something)
21:05<Megaf>then something)conf.d
21:06<hewl>Megaf: More I wanted to see what the current conf was to see if that was causing issues, if there isn't any conf present do I presume that nouveau is using the defaults mentioned in "man nouveau"?
21:07<Megaf>I think there is a conf there, have a look
21:07<Megaf>ok folks, bremner, maybe the problem is with my laptop
21:07<Megaf>touchpad doesnt work on Debian 7.11 either
21:07<Megaf>it works on the BIOS stuff tho, that's so weird
21:08<Megaf>oh my, I pressed the fn key to enabled it and it worked
21:08<Megaf>I feel so stupid now
21:08<Megaf>:S
21:08<hewl>Now you just need to set that to the default.
21:09<Megaf>it makes no sense
21:09<hewl>Anyway there is no conf file for nouveau anywhere.
21:09<Megaf>I had to press fn + f5
21:09<jmcnaught>hewl: usually you don't need an xorg.conf file, Xorg does a pretty good job of autoconfiguring these days
21:09<Megaf>but the fn keys were supposed to be working without pressing fn
21:09<Megaf>fn + fkey was supposed to be F1....
21:09<Megaf>anyways
21:09<hewl>jmcnaught: Highly unstable system is not really a good autoconfig. Maybe it's just my hardware being rare.
21:10<jmcnaught>hewl: if you are having crashes whenever something uses opengl, my first suspect is always leftover libraries from the nvidia drivers.. were they installed on this install of Debian?
21:11<hewl>jmcnaught: Yes. I struggle quite a bit to remove the nvidia drivers, and had to edit the removal scripts because of a version mismatch check. Nvidia was completely removed, no package installed mentions it.
21:11<jmcnaught>Megaf: /usr/share/X.... this is only for packages to write to. sysadmins/local users should only be writing to /etc/X11
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21:11<jmcnaught>hewl: how was nvidia installed, using the packages or using nvidia website's installer script?
21:11<Megaf>hewl: so, you can copy the files from there to /etc/X11/xorg.conf.d/
21:12<Megaf>also, nouveau might be blacklisted by the nvidia driver
21:12<Megaf>on /etc/modproble(something)
21:12<hewl>jmcnaught: Using "apt-get install nvidia-driver". It failed to run "apt-get remove nvidia-driver", because one of the dependencies refused to successfully run its remove script.
21:12<jmcnaught>hewl: a good place to start would be making a paste of your /var/log/Xorg.0.log and any errors you get from crashing programs
21:13<hewl>Megaf: Automatically removed from the blacklist, it should be working fine. Nouveau itself is currently installed.
21:13<jmcnaught>hewl: that sucks.. "dpkg -l | grep nvidia" returns nothing at this point?
21:13<hewl>jmcnaught: I'd already had a poke around with that. It doesn't really say much aside from "it crashed".
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21:14<jmcnaught>hewl: 'make a paste' as in, let others help you look for clues and errors
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21:14<hewl>jmcnaught: Ok, how do I do that?
21:14<jmcnaught>dpkg: tell hewl about pastebinit
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21:16<hewl>jmcnaught: Not currently installed. Is there a way to do it through a browser?
21:16<jmcnaught>hewl: are you also not able to install packages? you can simply go to https://paste.debian.net/ and paste the file into the textarea
21:17<hewl>jmcnaught: It's a very large file. Does this matter?
21:18<hewl>jmcnaught: Should I only include the (EE) entries?
21:18<jmcnaught>the whole file is better so people can see the context
21:19<hewl>jmcnaught: There are two logs. Xorg.0 and Xorg.1. They both have errors, so I'll upload both.
21:19<jmcnaught>hewl: 0 is the current or most recent log. 1 is the log before that and so on
21:20<hewl>jmcnaught: I haven't caused a crash this session so I'll upload Xorg.1 then.
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21:21<hewl>https://paste.debian.net/857917/
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21:21<Guest1347>.
21:21<hewl>Guest1347: hello
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21:25<jmcnaught>hewl: lines 292-293: AIGLX: reverting to software rendering <--- what's that about
21:26<hewl>jmcnaught: I haven't the slightest idea. I've never used the nouveau driver prior to this. I suspect that my system is currently software rendering instead of hardware rendering as the more windows I have on screen, the higher CPU usage, even if they are doing nothing.
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21:27<jmcnaught>hewl: nouveau is what was used when you installed Debian, before you install nvidia drivers
21:27<hewl>Does the fact that I don't have the module "nv" have anything to do with this?
21:27<jmcnaught>hewl: nv is the older driver that nouveau replaced (nouveau is french for new)
21:28<hewl>jmcnaught: Nouveau wasn't in use before I installed nvidia-drivers, though. It fellback to vesa because nouveau wasn't functioning.
21:29<hewl>jmcnaught: The kernel on stable doesn't properly detect my driver, but the one from backports does, so I installed that one. There still seems to be issues, though.
21:29<hewl>Thank you for the clarity, though. I thought "nv" was an acronym for "NVidia".
21:29<jmcnaught>is the GPU really new or really old?
21:29<hewl>jmcnaught: Two years old, the Nvidia GeForce GTX 750Ti.
21:30<hewl>jmcnaught: It explicitly does not appear in the supported list that man nouveau mentions.
21:30<hewl>jmcnaught: Unless I just can't read it right.
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21:34<jmcnaught>hewl: so originally nouveau didn't work, only fbdev. then you install nvidia-driver, now you uninstalled it, and nouveau gets used but only with software rendering which crashes when used
21:34<hewl>jmcnaught: Bingo.
21:34<jmcnaught>you never at any point ran an nvidia installer
21:34<hewl>jmcnaught: Never.
21:35<cra1g321>would nouveau still be blacklisted ?
21:35<hewl>cra1g321: Nouveau is not blacklisted, I checked modprobe.d. It is currently installed, as per Debian Installer.
21:36<cra1g321>the debian nvidia-driver didnt work ?
21:36<jmcnaught>it's also pretty suspicious that one of the nvidia packages failed to complete its postrm script
21:36<hewl>jmcnaught: It was checking for a nvidia library with a newer version number than what was actually there to attempt to remove it, however I was able to just manually remove them all.
21:37<hewl>cra1g321: The objective is to use the nouveau drivers instead of the nvidia-drivers. The nvidia-driver works, however I'd prefer not to use it.
21:37<jmcnaught>hewl: which version of the nvidia-driver package did you install?
21:37<hewl>jmcnaught: Whatever was in stable, let me check.
21:38<hewl>340.96-1
21:38<cra1g321>yeah your card is supported by the nvidia-driver in stable
21:38<cra1g321>if it was me i'd just use the driver that works, not the one you want to work ;)
21:38<hewl>cra1g321: That is true, but the kernel doesn't support properly detecting it.
21:38<jmcnaught>hewl: do you still have update-glx installed?
21:38<hewl>cra1g321: Hence I am using 4.7.0 from backports.
21:39<hewl>jmcnaught: I have never heard of that.
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21:39<hewl>jmcnaught: It doesn't have a man page.
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21:40<hewl>cra1g321: I would do that if it were the easier alternative right now. In order to do that from this point I'd have to uninstall the linux-kernel from backports and configure GRUB 2 to choose the older kernel as the default instead and I don't know how complicated that could get.
21:40<jmcnaught>oh, it's in jessie-backports. it looks like update-alternatives for the opengl libraries, but i don't use it (
21:41<hewl>jmcnaught: What does that mean?
21:42<jmcnaught>hewl: it lets you switch between GLX providers, but if you didn't use the nvidia-driver package from jessie-backports you wouldn't have installed it
21:42<hewl>jmcnaught: Man that sounds really convienient.
21:42<hewl>jmcnaught: Anyway I'm gonna have a quick break from this, starting to get a headache. I'll be back in twenty.
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22:01<hewl>hewl: As it stands, I don't have nvidia, I have nouveau, however it's getting an error when Xorg attempts to use it and it reverts to software rendering, kinda.
22:01<hewl>Why did I write my name there?
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22:05<hewl>I have two options then, continue to troubleshoot this or uninstall the backported kernel and go back to nvidia-driver which is confirmed to work. How would I uninstall the backported kernel if I used "sudo apt-get -t jessie-backports install linux-image-`uname -r|sed 's,[^-]*-[^-]*-,,'`" to install it?
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22:14<jmcnaught>hewl: i'd be pretty curious to see what happens if you use a Debian Live cd... see what Xorg.0.log says, if nouveau is accelerated etc
22:14<hewl>jmcnaught: Is that something that can be done from Debian itself onto a USB flash drive?
22:15<jmcnaught>hewl: download one from here: https://www.debian.org/CD/live/ and copy it to a USB the same way you would copy an installer image
22:16<jmcnaught>cp debian.iso /dev/sdX
22:17<hewl>Going to grab the KDE version,
22:17<hewl>I don't have a torrent manager installed
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22:18<jmcnaught>there are http links
22:18<hewl>I'll do that then haha
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22:18<hewl>To confirm, http://cdimage.debian.org/debian-cd/current-live/amd64/iso-hybrid/ for a 64-bit arch. Correct?
22:18<jmcnaught>yeah
22:19<hewl>2 hours remaining woo
22:19<hewl>anything else we can try while waiting?
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22:20<hewl>jmcnaught: Do you know how to uninstall a kernel that was install via backports?
22:21<jmcnaught>hewl: first look at what's installed: "dpkg -l | grep linux-image"
22:22<jmcnaught>or: aptitude search ~i~n^linux-
22:22<hewl>the base kernel, 3.16 from stable; the one from backports, 4.7; another from backports that has just the version number.
22:23<hewl>linux-image-3.16.0-4-amd64 3.16.36-1+deb8u1, linux-image-4.7.0-0.bpo.1-amd64-unsigned 4.7.5-1~bpo8+2, linux-image-amd64 4.7+75~bpo8+1
22:23<hewl>, is the delimiter
22:25<hewl>jmcnaught: Running "apt-get autoclean -s" tells me it wants to remove linux-image-4.7.0-0.bpo.1-amd64-unsigned 4.7.5-1~bpo8+1 [36.9 MB]
22:25<hewl>I presume this is the base version from backports which was upgraded when I ran apt-get upgrade earlier.
22:26<hewl>Normally I would just boot into the older kernel and remove the newer kernel but the smiley code is what concerns me, what would undo that? I don't even understand why it was required in the first place.
22:27<jmcnaught>hewl: what does this want to do? "apt-get -s install linux-image-amd64=3.16+63 linux-image-4.7.0-0.bpo.1-amd64-unsigned-" <--- that - on the end means remove that package
22:27<jmcnaught>and -s is for simulate, which you can run as a regular user
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22:28<jmcnaught>if you're not already booted into the jessie 3.16 kernel, then i would do that before remove the backports kernel
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22:28<hewl>jmcnaught: It wants to remove linux-image-4.7.0-0.bpo.1-amd64-unsigned, downgrade linux-image-amd64 and then configure linux-image-amd64 (3.16+63 Debian:8.6/stable [amd64])
22:28<jmcnaught>hewl: you really don't like using pastebins eh?
22:29<hewl>jmcnaught: I've never used them before.
22:29<hewl>it's just unfamiliarity.
22:29<jmcnaught>it's a lot easier than paraphrasing command output
22:29<hewl>to the same reason why manual transmission cars still exist
22:29<hewl>it's easier to just stick with what you know sometimes
22:30<jmcnaught>if you don't want to install pastebinit, and command you want to paste you can pipe it to "nc termbin.com 9999".... like "apt-get -s install blah blah- | nc termbin.com 9999"
22:30<jmcnaught>^and^any
22:30<hewl>why use termbin instead of debianpaste?
22:32<jmcnaught>because you almost always have netcat (nc) installed and it seemed you were reluctant to install pastebinit
22:33<hewl>jmcnaught: One question, does installing a lot of applications onto a Debian system cause it to slow down or underperform in any way?
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22:34<jmcnaught>it depends on the applications. most desktop applications only run when you execute them.
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22:35<hewl>That is why I'm reluctant to install anything I'm not going to be using often.
22:35<jmcnaught>so stuff like libreoffice, chromium, and one-off commands like pastebinit don't consume resources except the storage space (which is minimal)
22:36<hewl>chromium
22:36<hewl>like of all software use the one that starts on boot and preloads its cache
22:36<jmcnaught>it's only daemons like web servers, database servers etc that run in the background all the time.. and even then if they're not active (no requests coming in) they'll not use a lot of CPU or RAM
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22:39<jmcnaught>hewl: i've got 8GB of RAM. I'm running GNOME, Firefox, Icedove, Rhythmbox. I also have two virutal machines running, one of them gets 2GB of RAM all to itself and is running various web and database servers (in their own containers). With all that I'm using 4.7 GB of my 8 GB, and not noticing any slowdowns at all on a 4 year old computer
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22:40<hewl>That's odd. Things naturally seem sluggish on Debian irrelevant of whatever settings I've got so I really don't want to do anything that would cause any slowdown. I too have 8GB RAM.
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22:43<jmcnaught>hewl: there are different kinds of slow with computers. slow to load programs? slow to switch between windows? slow to decode videos etc.
22:43<jmcnaught>hewl: the sluggishness you're experiencing could be related to the GPU problems you've been having
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22:44<hewl>Slow to just perform tasks. Even while I was using the nvidia-driver and everything was set up properly, the was significant screen lag in everything done and doing something as simple as playing a video would cause the FPS to drop down to 40 from 60.
22:45<administrator>what
22:45<hewl>Switching windows would cause a sudden drop of frames, dragging a translucent rectangle would bring FPS down to 25 if it covered the whole screen, anything CPU intense makes the whole system feel unresponsive. True that it could be GPU related but it's happened for everything.
22:45<jmcnaught>hewl: but the nvidia card performs normally in other distros/OSs?
22:45<hewl>jmcnaught: On the Windows partition it's fine.
22:46<administrator>dasf
22:46<hewl>One thing to note was that the video playing dropping frames only happened with VLC player and not on other players, except for when the settings weren't optimal.
22:46<jmcnaught>hewl: it'll be interesting to look at /var/log/Xorg.0.log from the debian live KDE boot
22:46<hewl>jmcnaught: That's got 1 hour 30 mins remaining.
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22:47<jmcnaught>hewl: time for some rest/food/self care then if you've been at this for a few days straight :)
22:48<hewl>haha, I've just finished that break from earlier so I'll keep busy by looking about stuff in regards to this in the manuals
22:48<hewl>Also I need to figure out why the volume is resetting back to 100% on every boot.
22:49<jmcnaught>hewl: also look for (EE) lines in your Xorg.0.log and search for them on the web, read up on bug threads where people have had similar problems
22:49<cra1g321>if you're using KDE, look in kmix's settings
22:49<cra1g321>i think there is a setting about volume after login
22:49<jmcnaught>hewl: if it's not that it could be the pulseaudio flat volumes setting
22:50<hewl>cra1g321: Restore volumes on login is selected, but is not being respected it seems.
22:50<hewl>jmcnaught: How would I check for that?
22:50<jmcnaught>hewl: try the solution under "sound level is low or suddenly becomes too loud" https://wiki.debian.org/PulseAudio#Solving_Problems
22:50<hewl>I nearly left clicked that and crashed my system.
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22:52<hewl>jmcnaught: It's currently set to yes.
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22:54<jmcnaught>hewl: try with yes
22:54<hewl>jmcnaught: That's what it's currently on, and that's causing the volume to go up to 100% on every boot. Wouldn't I try to set it to "no" instead?
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22:55<jmcnaught>hah sorry.. i mean no but i'm spreading my attention a little thin at the moment
22:55<hewl>no worries
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22:55<hewl>just switched it over to no now, I'll see if the volume is maintained on next boot
22:57<jmcnaught>hewl: that setting is explained in "man pulse-daemon.conf"
22:57<hewl>jmcnaught: Yep, it says to maximise the volume on every initiation, which is not what I want.
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22:58<hewl>jmcnaught: In regards to the removal of the backported kernel, I found this page on the internet: http://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/debian-26/removing-backport-kernel-packages-833252/ To note, the person only ran the instruction to simply remove the newer kernel, not to also reinstall the older kernel.
22:59<hewl>jmcnaught: For what reason would the old kernel need to be reinstalled? Is it just to run the install scripts to make sure it's the only kernel that appears in GRUB 2?
22:59<jmcnaught>hewl: the package linux-image-amd64 is just a metapackage that depends on the actual kernel package. If the metapackage is version 3.16, it pulls in jessie kernels. If the metapackage is from backports, it pulls in backports packaged
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23:01<hewl>So by reinstalling the old kernel, we're telling the meta package to pull from stable instead of backports. That way, on the next apt-get update upgrade, it shouldn't seek the backport version of the kernel.
23:01<hewl>Is this correct?
23:03<cra1g321>why not just "sudo apt-get remove linux-image-4.7.0-0.bpo.1-amd64" then "update-grub"
23:03<cra1g321>iirc if you install a newer kernel, the older one is still kept around
23:04<hewl>https://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/debian-faq/ch-kernel.en.html also repeats this
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23:05<hewl>That brings up another question, how do I configure GRUB?
23:05<cra1g321>to do ?....
23:05<jmcnaught>hewl: you should still have linux-image-3.16.0-4-amd64 installed right?
23:06<hewl>jmcnaught: Yep, it appears in the advanced boot options for Debian in GRUB 2.
23:06<cra1g321>boot into the old kernel, remove the backports one, run update-grub
23:06<hewl>cra1g321: Stuff like changing the automatic timer and wallpaper. Just aesthetic stuff like that.
23:07<cra1g321>sudo nano /etc/default/grub
23:07<cra1g321>change timer is line GRUB_TIMEOUT=
23:07<cra1g321>then after you're done editing, run sudo update-grub
23:08<cra1g321>for wallpaper, meh its grub, i see it for 2 seconds max
23:08<hewl>I'm a fan of making everything leave a good impression. The default wallpaper looks rather uuugh to me.
23:09<cra1g321>i'd worry about getting your nvidia card related issue fixed first tbh
23:09<awal1>an easy way: update-alternatives lets you change the wallpaper
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23:10<hewl>awal1: Is that a package?
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23:11<jmcnaught>hewl: it's a command provided by the dpkg package. see its man page, it's a very handy Debian feature
23:12<awal1>hewl, ^
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23:13<hewl>I don't see the command in man dpkg.
23:14<awal1>man update-alternatives
23:14<hewl>oh
23:15<hewl>awal1: I don't understand how a default application selector will help set the wallpaper in GRUB.
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23:18<awal1>update-alternatives --config desktop-grub
23:19<awal1>will let you to choose which wallpaper you want; the ones provided by desktop-base
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23:23<hewl>awal1: After several minutes of looking at the images the command failed because "Permission denied".
23:24<awal1>do that as root
23:24<hewl>What file is update-alternative editing to achieve this?
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23:30<awal1>I guess, /etc/alternatives/desktop-grub
23:31<awal1>also, you can do that editing /etc/grub.d/05_debian_theme
23:31<hewl>So it just changes the symbolic link.
23:31<awal1>but i havent played with it yet
23:32<hewl>There is no mention of the path used to seek the background in that file, which is why I was confused. There's also no mention of it in etc/defaults/grub
23:32<awal1>you have a more exhaustive/detailed explanation in the manual
23:33<hewl>The manual doesn't make it clear what you should be editing.
23:35<hewl>awal1: thank you for telling me about it, though. It'll be much better to have a background actually designed for a 16:9 monitor.
23:36<awal1>hewl, personally I prefer grub without wall paper at all
23:36<awal1>wallpaper ^
23:37<hewl>How does one do that?
23:39<awal1>default grub backgronds are provided by desktop-base pkg
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23:40<hewl>so we KILL DESKTOP-BASE?
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23:42<awal1>removing desktop-base will removea few stuff, including background (for grub, your DM and DE)
23:42<hewl>aha, as I presumed. So how do we tell GRUB not to use the backgrounds provided by desktop-base?
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23:43<awal1>google it. havent experimented with that kind of stuuf, minor stuff (for me) :P
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---Logclosed Fri Oct 07 00:00:58 2016