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#debian IRC Logs for 2017-04-28

---Logopened Fri Apr 28 00:00:27 2017
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02:44<gtristan>So, I would like to setup mirrors for debian based repositories; not as an official mirror but for the purpose of full repeatability
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02:45<gtristan>Specifically, I want to configure my downstream mirror(s) so that they never delete older package versions
02:45<gtristan>Can I get this all done, relatively easily with a software like https://packages.debian.org/stable/debmirror ?
02:46<localhorst>I believe that's what http://snapshot.debian.org/ is for.
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02:47<lindi->gtristan: snapshot.debian.org indeed lets you back in time and get the repository state at some point in time
02:48<gtristan>right, snapshot is indeed interesting for my purposes
02:48<gtristan>I was wondering though, if that host itself is easily enough repeatable
02:49<gtristan>so that I could do it myself as well, and maybe for more than one debian repo (maybe I'd want to set one up for e.g., ubuntu packages separately)
02:50<gtristan>also, I'm not entirely sure the concept of putting dates in the uri is exactly what I want, but there must be another way to address package by version in snapshot.debian.org right ?
02:50<lindi->gtristan: yep there is
02:51<lindi->gtristan: and the "debsnap" command can also fetch them by version and architecture
02:51<lindi->gtristan: both source and binary packages
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02:51<gtristan>What I want to do is: A.) Get all the versions of all the dependencies of unversioned package "foo", with their latest versions of release "jessie".... and then B.) in a separate step, download all of the relevant .deb files
02:52<gtristan>And I would like to repeat (B) in the future
02:52<gtristan>debsnap
02:52*gtristan looks into what debsnap is
02:52<lindi->grawity: "all dependencies" is tricky stuff, there are all sorts of alternative dependencies and conflicts and so on
02:52<lindi->I mean gtristan
02:53<lindi->gtristan: like if foo depends on "bar | quuz" are you going to fetch foo and bar or foo and quuz?
02:53<gtristan>Right, that is tricky
02:53<lindi->gtristan: I would just recommend making a complete mirror unless you really are short on storage space
02:54<lindi->jessie is less than 200 GB if you take the binary packages for one architecture I think
02:54<gtristan>I understand, there are two levels of this, one of them disk space is important
02:54<lindi->gtristan: just get the package list from the installed system and then use debsnap to fetch those specific packages
02:54<gtristan>Basically, I'm writing a generic build tool, and I have a variety of "Source" plugin implementations which can fetch and import data for building purposes (I have plugins for "tar", "git", etc...)
02:55<gtristan>also "ostree"
02:55<gtristan>And, I want repeatable, eventually bit-for-bit reproducible if possible builds
02:55<gtristan>So, one really cool idea, was to also have a source plugin for "dpkg"
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02:56<gtristan>So I could say: A.) Import a debian base system of a very specific version... B.) Update that very specific version to the latest of ${release} at any time... C.) Start building things on top of that base inside a sandbox... D.) Deploy things, like packages or bundles, or docker containers etc... based on those build results
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02:57<gtristan>So "mirroring all of debian" is interesting for a private server for an org to always be sure they can reproduce todays build in 10 years
02:57<gtristan>But for the user to build in a sandbox on their own host, they should get only what needs to be staged into a build sandbox
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03:00<gtristan>so more to the point, lindi- ... is there no technique to say... for instance I want a list of all specific package versions for "build-essential" metapackage dependencies, for "todays jessie" ?
03:00<gtristan>I understand I may need to input some more parameters
03:00<gtristan>but ideally I should not have to install any debian system to do this
03:00<lindi->gtristan: for example apt-get and aptitude might come up with different solutions
03:01<lindi->gtristan: maybe you want to talk to the people who are making build reproducible?
03:01<gtristan>nod, ideally I would hope to use dpkg directly... I'm not sure I can trust running apt-get or aptitude on a non-debian host for instance
03:02<gtristan>like, I would like to also have an "rpm" source, and be able to run builds based on debian or rpm, on say, a gentoo host :)
03:03<lindi->gtristan: so are you going to only install those packages with dpkg also?
03:03<lindi->gtristan: or what do you do with the mirrored packages?
03:03<gtristan>Yes, as an unprivileged user
03:03<gtristan>in a sandbox
03:04<gtristan>Where the sandbox (in the linux cases), uses linux namespace features
03:04<gtristan>so it thinks it's root, but cannot do real rooty things like create device files or assign completely arbitrary uid/gid ownership
03:04<lindi->right
03:05<lindi->sounds fun but potentially tricky to get right
03:05<gtristan>I understand it's tricky to get right :)
03:05<gtristan>I expect I may need to interpret the install scriptlets too
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03:06<gtristan>because what I hope to do, is have the dpkg do the installation to a --root=${sandbox} location, and then run integration scriptlets only when entering the sandbox
03:06<lindi->yep, you need to run code as root to install packages
03:07<gtristan>that will make my tooling simpler, less spaghetti, but will mean that I need to install only the payload, and interpret the scripts to be run in the container-like sandbox
03:08<gtristan>I have framework enough to do that part anyway (we do bootstrap and build a whole bootable system in there already)
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03:10<gtristan>So what I'm really trying to figure out, cause it would be awesome to leverage distro packages in a system like this, is just how to resolve the dependency graph (down to the version) for a statement like "I want build-essential for AArch64 of todays jessie"
03:11<gtristan>but from what I'm reading, it's wrappers like apt-get and aptitude which do this work ?
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03:16<gtristan>lindi-, maybe an alternative approach to the implementation would be to do the whole installation from a container of sorts, and actually "do an install" in some way in that container, and after exiting the container, record the results ?
03:16<gtristan>although I'm not sure what I would run in there, if I dont even have a shell or anything
03:17<gtristan>maybe thats anyway an easier road to follow, and staging a base runtime env is just a detail
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03:19<lindi->gtristan: hmm? you mean something like debootstrap or vmdebootstrap?
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03:19<lindi->gtristan: vmdebootstrap creates a VM image from a configuration
03:19*gtristan did debootstrap only once many years ago and doesnt really recall
03:20<gtristan>lindi-, right, I think vmdebootstrap sounds approximately similar
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03:20<gtristan>although of course, I dont necessarily need it to boot
03:20<gtristan>and I dont want a filesystem or image as a result
03:20<lindi->I've use debootstrap for all sort of custom hacks
03:21<gtristan>and, I want the configuration to be A.) updatable on request, to get the "latest jessie" versions... and B.) Have specific versions listed in the configuration
03:21<gtristan>maybe looking at vmdebootstrap will give me some good ideas, though
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03:23<gtristan>ok debootstrap seems more like it
03:23<gtristan>lindi-, does debootstrap want to run on a debian system ? or can I run it basically anywhere ?
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03:24<gtristan>ah yes, the wiki says so
03:25<gtristan>lindi-, I think this is indeed a promising avenue, probably I need to run it from inside a container though (so as to not require root)
03:25*gtristan finds https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=829134
03:25<judd>Bug http://bugs.debian.org/829134 in debootstrap (open, patch): «debootstrap: Changes needed to support unprivileged userns debootstrap»; severity: wishlist; opened: 2016-06-30; last modified: 2016-09-08.
03:26<gtristan>Is this already possible ? Using debootstrap as unprivileged user ?
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04:21<lindi->gtristan: with fakechroot and fakeroot you can use it I think
04:23<mihalski_>hello.. I'm trying to boot into the xen kernel on stretch rc3 and it's freezing Loading initial Ramdisk ...
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04:25<mihalski_>This is the message https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/l4SOSXbY/xen-1.jpg
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04:33<gtristan>lindi-, interesting, in case you are interested, I'm tracking this here: https://gitlab.com/BuildStream/buildstream/issues/10
04:33<gtristan>hope it bears fruit :D
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04:44<mihalski_>I can never catch a break.. every time I want to do anything I run into a brick wall on one of the first steps
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04:55<mihalski_>argh!! damn you documentation! this deserves a warning on install
04:55<mihalski_>"After a bit of hunting I discovered the issues is that Xen doesn’t work properly with EFI installations. To remedy this you’ll need to reconfigure the machine to boot in Legacy BIOS mode (the procedure to do this changes drastically with each computer)."
04:56<mihalski_>in fact
04:56<mihalski_>this is impossible on a Mac mini :(
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04:58<mihalski_>I wonder if I can trick it by installing debian off cd instead of usb.. but I don't know if that would carry on to grub/xen
04:58<mihalski_>I refer to this portion of Debian documentation
04:59<mihalski_>"Using an amd64 image, this machine will boot and install Debian easily. Oddly, it boots differently depending on the boot media. If using a CD, it boots in BIOS mode (and will then install correctly and boot that way). If booted from a USB stick, it boots in EFI mode and will also install correctly and boot that way."
04:59<mihalski_>does anyone have any insight into this?
04:59<TotallyNotKim>mhmmm
05:00<mihalski_>it IMPLIES that if you install off cd then it will boot in BIOS mode even off SSD
05:00<TotallyNotKim>you would still have a usb dvd drive attached to the mini, right?
05:00<mihalski_>no.. the drive is internal
05:00<TotallyNotKim>that could help
05:00<mihalski_>the cd/dvd drive
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05:00<TotallyNotKim>yeah I wasn't sure about that
05:01<mihalski_>I don't really understand how the source of installation affects the type of installation
05:01<mihalski_>though I guess I may
05:01<mihalski_>since it creates an eft partition with an eft install
05:01<mihalski_>I presume it will.. what? use mbr?
05:02-!-mode/#debian [+l 771] by debhelper
05:02<mihalski_>or is there a middle ground?
05:02<TotallyNotKim>not that I am aware of
05:02<TotallyNotKim>legacy mode -> mbr, efi mode -> eft
05:03<mihalski_>I ALWAYS run into niche problems like this
05:03<TotallyNotKim>so you can switch the bios to legacy only in the mac bios?
05:03<mihalski_>no
05:03<mihalski_>it's automatic
05:03<mihalski_>depending on install source apparently
05:03<mihalski_>there is no way to manually switch anything
05:04<mihalski_>now I need to find a cd/dvd
05:05<mihalski_>wifi this doesn't work I'm going to be pretty annoyed.. it's ass backwards to start with.. jumping through hoops better yield results :/
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05:05<mihalski_>s/wifi/if
05:05<TotallyNotKim>im not that familiar with mac, but wasnt there a thing called clover or so?
05:05<TotallyNotKim>that could force booting efi / legacy
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05:13<mihalski_>clover is for pc's running macos
05:13<mihalski_>which I also do
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05:28<mihalski_>god dammit!.. I found a dvd+rw and wrote it to that but it refuses to recognise it
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05:45<cousin_luigi>Greetings.
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05:48*cousin_luigi knows the standard reply about debian releases, but what could be an educated guess about the release date of Stretch?
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06:15<rah>https://hackernoon.com/the-myth-of-software-time-estimations-576a7466d91a
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06:23<cousin_luigi>Ok, how many release blocking bugs are there still?
06:23<mihalski_>ok.. I guess I need to buy a new computer
06:23<mihalski_>this Mac mini can no longer accept discs for some random inexplicable reasons that nobody in the last 10 years has been able to figure out
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06:24<cousin_luigi>rah: It's interesting that the poor man was fired though·
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06:31<TotallyNotKim>where in a deb should I store files that I need for the postinst only and can be thrown away afterwards?
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06:38<TotallyNotKim>\/tmp and remove afterwards?
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07:50<lindi->TotallyNotKim: you can't delete files that are part of the package
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08:27<TotallyNotKim>lindi-: seems legit - solved it differently
08:27<TotallyNotKim>thanks tho
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09:51<TotallyNotKim>so lets say in need to symbolic link two files in my deb, how would I pull htat off?
09:51<TotallyNotKim>relative links using ..?
09:53<TotallyNotKim>aha found it myself
09:53<TotallyNotKim>dh_link
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09:56<bremner>TotallyNotKim: there are two channels dedicated to debian packaging: ##packaging for unofficial stuff, and #debian-mentors for stuff directed at the debian archive
09:57<TotallyNotKim>oh
09:57<TotallyNotKim>awesome
09:57<TotallyNotKim>thanks
09:57<bremner>sure.
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11:13<toner>hi, has anyone got tigervnc working on debian jessie?
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12:16<luis_>Question, can I use eg.: /etc/network/interfaces, or something else, to tell the machine that I want to grab an IP of 192.168.x.252, no matter what segment x I am in?
12:18<itd>luis_: How do you know which segment you are in?
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12:20<luis_>itd, the idea is that I don't have to know. if the machine gets a eg.: DHCP lease saying it is in 192.168.7.0, I want to request .252 in stead
12:20<bremner>that sounds, uh, unusual
12:20<itd>luis_: https://superuser.com/a/487608 <- you could try that.
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12:22<itd>(See which IP you get, update the dhclient.conf and try again. ;))
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12:22<luis_>Oh, makes sense
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12:24<luis_>So long as it doesn't actually require setting up a reservation in the router, it should work for me.
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12:24<blast007>and I assume you don't control the DHCP server?
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12:27<luis_>blast007, no one "does", actually. The infrastructure giving us those segments faces frequent power outages and configuration switching, over which we have no management.
12:28<luis_>so I was looking for ways to palliate the issue until the responsible party addresses our client's (and ours) complaints.
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12:52<Ecko>Hey people. Here's something that's been bugging me for a while. I'm mounting an NTFS partition like so: mount /dev/sda1 /storage. However after mounting, not even root can create files or folders on it. Only edit existing ones.
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12:52<Ecko>The error I'm getting as root is: touch: cannot touch ‘testfile’: Permission denied
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12:53<Ecko>If anyone can help, or even point in the right direction, that would be extremely helpful
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12:54<mtn>Ecko: is ntfs-3g installed?
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12:54<phillipsjk>it is probably mounted ro in /etc/mtab
12:54<Ecko>I thought it was installed by default, give me a second. Doublechecking
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12:54<Ecko>No, I checked that. rw
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12:57<Ecko>Damn, that is painful. It was indeed ntfs-3g that wasn't installed. After installing it worked fine
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12:57<Ecko>Thanks for the help mtn :)
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12:57<mtn>Ecko: welcome
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12:59*phillipsjk is not sure /etc/mtab is where you actually edit mounts
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13:00<Ecko>Nope, mtab shows currently mounted, it's fstab that needs to be edited
13:00<phillipsjk>looks like /etc/fstab is the one you edit
13:00<phillipsjk>mtab just shows what is mounted
13:00<Ecko>However, you can copy/paste from mtab if you have already mounted it and want to make it permanent
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14:10-!-Lordz is "Adium User" on #debian-br #debian
14:10<z4u9>bonjour
14:11<z4u9>y a t il un francais?
14:11<Brigo>!fr
14:11<dpkg>Pour l'aide en francais, veuillez rejoindre le canal #debianfr. Francophone users: for help in french, please go to #debianfr.
14:12-!-mode/#debian [+l 789] by debhelper
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14:12-!-bubbely is "realname" on #debian
14:12<bubbely>can someone help me get my sound driver working? realtek card
14:12-!-Lordz [~Adium@186.215.116.176] has quit []
14:12<z4u9>et comment tu fais?
14:12<bubbely>oui!
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14:14<user>hh
14:14<user>sory
14:14-!-user is now known as Guest1403
14:14<Guest1403>yes
14:14<z4u9>g du mal a telecharger flash player sur debian 8
14:15-!-mythos [~mythos@80-109-225-139.cable.dynamic.surfer.at] has joined #debian
14:15-!-mythos is "mythos" on #debian #debian-gnome #debian-offtopic
14:15<z4u9>tu peux m aider?
14:15<Guest1403>soory im not spik good englech
14:15<z4u9>ou qui p m aider?
14:15<bubbely>i have the firmware-realtek installed, but ALSA doesn't detect a soundcard?
14:15<bremner>z4u9: !fr
14:15<bremner>!fr
14:15<dpkg>Pour l'aide en francais, veuillez rejoindre le canal #debianfr. Francophone users: for help in french, please go to #debianfr.
14:15<bremner>z4u9: ^
14:16<Guest1403>chnawa
14:16<z4u9>comment tufais pour le rejoindre? merci
14:16<Guest1403>hi hi wath thes
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14:22<retrospectacus>z4u9: /j #debianfr
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14:23-!-jplejacq__ is "Jean Pierre LeJacq" on #debian-kde #debian
14:23<retrospectacus>z4u9: it is on freenode. /server chat.freenode.net and then /j #debianfr
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14:25-!-dave is "realname" on #debian
14:25-!-dave is now known as Guest1405
14:26<Guest1405>hi what's this chat all about lol
14:26<retrospectacus>!chat
14:26<dpkg>This is not a chat channel, this is a Debian user support channel. Unless you have a Debian support question, please chat elsewhere, like #moocows on irc.oftc.net or ##chat on irc.freenode.net.
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14:27<Guest1403>oh sory
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14:43<edgelordman>In costume partitioning which partitons should be logical and which primary?
14:44<somiaj>doesn't really matter and only if using mbr partition tables, many are using gpt partition tables these days
14:45<somiaj>basically you only get 4 primary partions in mbr setup. In this case, if you want more than 4 you will have to make some extended/logical (i.e. turn one of the primary parititon into multiple logical partitions)
14:45<edgelordman>I use gpt, so it doesn't matter at all?
14:45<somiaj>in gpt there is no distinction between primary and extended/logical
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17:08-!-prinCof is "Princof" on #debian
17:08<prinCof>salut je suis nouveau
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17:10<umlaeute>!fr
17:10<dpkg>Pour l'aide en francais, veuillez rejoindre le canal #debianfr. Francophone users: for help in french, please go to #debianfr.
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19:29-!-GUNDAM_CO is "purple" on #debian #vidalia #buddhism #globalleaks #crypto #whonix @#ガンダムエピオン
19:29*GUNDAM_CO cockpit beeps
19:29<GUNDAM_CO>howdy!
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19:35*GUNDAM_CO rejoins f10 with a5
19:35<GUNDAM_CO>recompile _bash_init.sh
19:35*GUNDAM_CO taps on the microphone
19:35<GUNDAM_CO>hello mic check won ton two four
19:35<GUNDAM_CO>mic check stir fried rice...
19:36*GUNDAM_CO reloads jessie
19:36<GUNDAM_CO>hey cool a space flight simulator
19:36<GUNDAM_CO>lets land on the mir space station.
19:37-!-netranger [~netranger@2606:6000:50ce:5c00::13] has joined #debian
19:37-!-netranger is "ATGStudios" on #debian
19:37<bremner>!chat
19:37<dpkg>This is not a chat channel, this is a Debian user support channel. Unless you have a Debian support question, please chat elsewhere, like #moocows on irc.oftc.net or ##chat on irc.freenode.net.
19:38<GUNDAM_CO>thank you mr dpkg
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19:38-!-mnuhmnuh is "keeling" on #debian
19:38*GUNDAM_CO hovers here
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19:43<GUNDAM_CO>what is the best way to install rkhunter for debian?
19:43-!-gmri [~gmri@00026266.user.oftc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
19:43<bremner>apt install rkhunter ?
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19:44<GUNDAM_CO>hmm let me try
19:44<GUNDAM_CO>oh i have this mac book and i install debian on it, it says to investigate repositories?
19:44<GUNDAM_CO>how does one go about doing that?
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19:48-!-glebihan is "glebihan" on #debian #debian-next #lxde #openbox
19:49<levlaz>GUNDAM_CO: are you connected to a network?
19:49<levlaz>You should run sudo apt-get update && sudo apt-get install rkhunter
19:49<GUNDAM_CO>oh ok. i am but it is default...
19:49<GUNDAM_CO>yes levlaz that is correct.
19:49<GUNDAM_CO>it appears i have already installed it
19:50<levlaz>Great, then you are all set :)
19:50<GUNDAM_CO>i was having trouble with mint before and the apt was malicious and or destructive...
19:50<GUNDAM_CO>it is weird when one comes across a linux root kit...
19:51<GUNDAM_CO>has anyone heard of the suckit version of a linux root kit?
19:51<levlaz>GUNDAM_CO: no, but this is probably not the best place to discuss that sort of thing. This place is for general help with debian.
19:52<GUNDAM_CO>oh ok understood.
19:52<GUNDAM_CO>my rkhunter is not working correctly
19:52<GUNDAM_CO>Invalid SCRIPTWHITELIST configuration option: Non-existent pathname: /usr/bin/lwp-request
19:52<levlaz>Does /usr/bin/lwp-request exist?
19:52<GUNDAM_CO>i suppose i will dive in a little deeper without oxygen tanks
19:52<GUNDAM_CO>roger sequence check hold.
19:53-!-CEP-2015-Jessie [~cep2015@host236.186-108-164.telecom.net.ar] has joined #debian
19:53-!-CEP-2015-Jessie is "realname" on @#debian-live-ar #debian-live #debian-bluetooth #oftc #debian-ar #debian #debian-es
19:54<GUNDAM_CO>no it does not
19:54<GUNDAM_CO>shall i create?
19:54*GUNDAM_CO refers to configuration
19:54<GUNDAM_CO>i have never had this problem with an install of rkhunter
19:55<levlaz>I don't know, I have never usd rkhunter before, but you should read the documentation to see what it wants. Unless someone else has an idea.
19:55<GUNDAM_CO>ok understood levlaz. thank you.
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20:55<mnuhmnuh>GUNDAM_CO: take with a grain of salt: worrying about malware on Linux is a waste of effort. i started with linux in '93. never needed to care about malware. that's Win* worrying; not for us.
20:56<GUNDAM_CO>10-4 ack packets do syn sometimes but configs are for windows too
20:57<GUNDAM_CO>where is the infosec area of debian?
20:57<mnuhmnuh>http://security.debian.org/
20:57<mnuhmnuh>wiki.debian.org
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20:58*GUNDAM_CO shrugs shoulders
20:58<GUNDAM_CO>ok i see will refer there thank you
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21:09<yulax>mnuhmnuh: depends what type of malware you're worried about
21:10<yulax>"average shit you get off the internet" vs ... potentially something worse.
21:10<GUNDAM_CO>lol
21:10<GUNDAM_CO>flame virus
21:10<yulax>um
21:10<GUNDAM_CO>not cool
21:10<yulax>no.
21:10<yulax>please go to ##chat like recommended elsewhere
21:10<GUNDAM_CO>10-4
21:12<mnuhmnuh>yulax: i admit linux malware exists. linux running botnets exist. they can only hurt you if root owned server processes allow them by being mis-configged. lock 'em down, and you're safe.
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21:12<yulax>indeed.
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21:13<yulax>however.
21:14<yulax>regarding rkhunter though, i'm doubtful semi-competent malware is ~not going to be able to get round it right now.
21:14<yulax>i'm not sure it's really worth running it. it either gives a false sense of security, or false positives.
21:15<mnuhmnuh>yulax: the best anti-malware progs in Win* catch only 80% of bad stuff, and are powerless against zero-days ~!@#.
21:17<yulax>just stay worried in bed at night that your kernel is full of gaping holes.
21:17<yulax>(linux)
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21:24<mnuhmnuh>yulax: nah, just do good backups and be ready to reinstall at the drop of a hat. that still beats Win*, anyday.
21:26<mnuhmnuh>Win* talks to NSA, ffs. want this new 'sploit to go after terrists? found one! gimme.
21:27<yulax>linux root escalation exploits are really not that hard to come by, though...
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21:28<mnuhmnuh>yulax: not hard to come by, no; hard to implement if root server processes are locked down.
21:29<yulax>from the outside, yes, i suppose.
21:29<yulax>not if you run a web browser though :/
21:29<yulax>(that isn't chrome/chromium)
21:30<mnuhmnuh>yulax: oldest story in *nix: don't run services you don't need or don't know how to lock down.
21:30<yulax>it's still not really an excuse for the kernel's security record though.
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21:32<mnuhmnuh>yulax: that's why server admins get the big bucks. watch your logs, watch security lists, ... home user, no, just don't let redhat install with rsh enabled.
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21:46<mnuhmnuh>yulax: do you really think linux has a worse security record than the alternatives? security is a moving target, always. linux has been way better at handling it than others.
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21:58<yulax>mnuhmnuh: yes. it certainly has a worse security record than a Grsecurity patched kernel, which is an alternative (it's what i'd say you have to compare it against).
21:58<yulax>as for Windows, it is debatable.
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22:00<mnuhmnuh>yulax: i'm suspicious you're a Win* troll. you grasp at straws.
22:00<yulax>no, i'm not. i don't use Windows, and haven't for years.
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22:02<mnuhmnuh>yulax: my aplogies then, but you're paranoid about stuff i never needed to care about. grsecurity?
22:03<yulax>it's a kernel patchset. that fixes and mitigates a lot of the stupid shit that should have been fixed from the start
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22:05<yulax>i present an illustrative diagram. https://grsecurity.net/~spender/pics/grsecurity_pax-influence.png
22:06<yulax>anyway. i think we got off track.
22:11<mnuhmnuh>yulax: as long as it's educational, i don't mind. i still think only server admins *might* need to care about this stuff. users, no.
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22:11<yulax>server admins are users too
22:19<mnuhmnuh>yulax: server admins don't surf from their servers. they don't let anything happen on those boxes they don't know everything they need to know about it. well, good admins, i mean.
22:21<yulax>so, that would logically suggest that the people most at risk from kernels being exploited are regular users, not server admins.
22:21<yulax>hardening benefits everyone, and lack of it harms everyone.
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22:25<mnuhmnuh>yulax: yup. ignorance isn't bliss. don't run services you don't know how to control, and you'll be good (in my experience). bad guys are looking for monster machines they can use, not ten year old laptops and towers (except for botnet herders; they'll take anything they can get).
22:26<yulax>my point about web briwser means so many people are at reasonably high risk of the whole castle coming down, that we can't just rely on users not to do atupid stuff
22:27<mnuhmnuh>yulax: hardening has costs, not just benefits. the latter may be illusiory.
22:27<yulax>it's not though...
22:27<yulax>sure , it has costs.
22:27<yulax>so does not doing shit.
22:29<mnuhmnuh>yulax: read your logs, reinstall when unsure. it's free, fun, and you get better at it everytime you do it.
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22:30<yulax>it's impractical for most people. i don't think it is good advice
22:31<yulax>make better software instead of destroying slightly bad software every so often.
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22:33<mnuhmnuh>yulax: those people shouldn't be using *nix, if that's impractical for them. Win*/Apple's easier; just passs 'em your bucks, and hope for the best they can do for you. cross your fingers too ...
22:34<yulax>oh come on
22:34<mnuhmnuh>yulax: bottom line.
22:35<yulax>how is "install the whole OS cos you might have malwares" a aolution to "your software isn't as resistant as it could be"
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22:37<mnuhmnuh>yulax: linux installs are cost free. back up your stuff & configs and re-installs don't hurt at all. not like Win* upgrades, ffs.
22:38<yulax>it's not that they hurt, or are a bad thing, i just don't think it's good to say it is a solution to lack of practical mitigations, starting with the kernel.
22:39<yulax>normal users don't have to worry, until they do. and then we say, if only...
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22:41<yulax>"you should have reinstalled frequently" is not good advice, in this context, is my feeling.
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22:49<mnuhmnuh>yulax: i never said "reinstall frequently." i said watch your logs, reinstall when necessary (or whenever you care to). cf. Win*/Apple: "kaching!", and $deity knows if it'll improve the situation.
22:49<mnuhmnuh>or make it worse
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23:39<Sanchke>What's happening with this security update?
23:39<Sanchke>Someone give me the low-down if possible.
23:39<mnuhmnuh>Sanchke: specify?
23:40<Sanchke>Why is "glibc security update?" the topic?
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23:42<mnuhmnuh>Sanchke: have you heard of bugs.debian.org? you can review glibc's history in full detail there.
23:42<somiaj>that is a bit older, but why not do what it says and /msg the bot about it.
23:42<Sanchke>somiaj: So that's what that means...
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23:45<mnuhmnuh># /msg dpkg glibc
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23:47<Sanchke>Hayhay. Okay, wasn't aware of the security update... Just upgraded all my servers.
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---Logclosed Sat Apr 29 00:00:29 2017