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#debian IRC Logs for 2017-06-17

---Logopened Sat Jun 17 00:00:37 2017
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00:01-!-dax is "dax" on #debian #debian-ftp #debian-cd
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00:04-!-marnold_ is "Matt Arnold" on #debian #debian-offtopic #debian-irc #debian-kbsd
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00:04-!-dboehmer_ is "Daniel B\xF6hmer,,," on #debian
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00:11-!-jan_ is "Jan Wójtowicz" on #debian
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00:13-!-Bhootrk_ is "realname" on #debian-ruby #debian-www #fish #freedombox #gcc #koha #kosagi #linode #linux-rt #linuxfs #love #mastodon-administration #mingw-w64 #mm #moocows #msys2 #oftc #ooni #open-maps-more-than-maps #openjdk #openttd #openttdcoop #osm #osm-de #osm-dev #osm-es #otr #ovirt #packaging #pax #publiclab #qemu #Qubes_OS #redditprivacy #sepia #slackware #spi #subgraph #suckless #vserver #zcash
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00:29-!-nowhere_man is "Pierre Thierry" on @#concatenative @#emacs #git @#erights #lisp #debian-kde #debian
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01:00-!-misterjack is "Richard Hering" on #linux-rt #debian
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01:00-!-wompa is "Tomas Heikkilä" on #linux #debian-offtopic #debian-next #debian
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01:51<Thraul>This looks interesting: :D
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02:00<blurr>dpkg alcohol
02:00<dpkg>alcohol is, like, the answer to most of lifes problems.., or a good excuse to alias rm='rm -i', or a cause of "rm -rf . / "'s, or the cause of, and solution to, all of lifes problems, or ask me about ambrosia
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02:47-!-gtristan is "Tristan Van Berkom" on #kernelnewbies #debian #ninja-build
02:47<dpkg>benny2356: È possibile scaricare un sacco di software libero puntando il tuo browser a !
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03:30<sicelo>is stretch on schedule to release today?
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03:38<spacebug^>sicelo: yes
03:39<sicelo>awesome :-)
03:40<spacebug^>sicelo: sorry I read that wrong. The ETA is today. If it really will be out today I do not know
03:41<sicelo>ah ok. will wait and see
03:43<Thraul>They are in the process of releasing. Annoucement: If you want to idle and follow the release join #debian-release
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03:45<sicelo>thanks Thraul
03:46<Thraul>keep following as well as they will be updating it with each stage of the process as well.
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03:59-!-LebedevRI is "Roman Lebedev" on #debian #debian-next
04:01<vader>irc channel to follow stretch releasing?
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04:02<tacocat>vader: #debian-release
04:03<vader>thanks! tacocat
04:03<tacocat>yw :)
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05:16<DCap>Hi Guys, Do you use Firefox browser? if yes, do you get script errors and slow performance? for example
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05:17-!-bittin- is "Esmeralda" on #stretch @#debian-devl #debian-next #debian
05:23<grove>I use firefox, but I also use NoScript so I don't execute every ridiculous piece of javascript out there, ans as I don't use netflix, I wouldn't execute any script from them, so probaby wouldn't experience the problems you describe. In general I only experiece performance issues in firefox when some webpage is trying to do something really silly
05:23<stderr>What timezone is being used on If it's UTC, the clock is almost two hours ahead of time.
05:24<Thraul>I believe it is UTC
05:27<stderr>UTC would fit the timestamps in the permalinks...
05:28<stderr>But it would be nice, if the timestamps were correct and not ~2 hours off.
05:28<DCap>Grove: Thanks, I will install right now NonScript, You are right
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05:44-!-faw is "Felipe Augusto van de Wiel" on @#funlabs @#cathedral @#gnumasters #debian-l10n-br #debian-devel-br @#gud-br-pr #debian-pr #debian-br #debconf #debian-www #debian-tech #debian-publicity #debian-mirrors #debian-i18n #debian
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05:46<DeViL-CHaoS>when Will be abble yo download debían 9 un the oficial website debí
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05:58<amacater>Wait for a bit - the ftpmasters are switching over so that the distributions are correct. Install media will be prepared after that: If you plan to upgrade a machine running Debian 8, please read release notes and the update procedure
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06:04-!-ed is "Ed Hamilton" on #debian-offtopic #debian-ftp #debian-cd #debian-kde #debian
06:05<groolot>can I have some advise on how to find a debian developer mentor to involve me to become a packager?
06:06<dtw>groolot, on IRC, #debian-mentors.
06:06<groolot>dtw: great, thanks!
06:07<dtw>There is also debian-mentors mailing list.
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06:39-!-mode/#debian [+l 900] by Ganneff
06:39<RattusRattus>Ganneff: thank you
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06:43<moses>debian based
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07:01<amacater>!debian based
07:01<dpkg>Your distribution may be based on and have software in common with Debian, but it is not Debian. We don't and cannot know what changes were made by your distribution (compare #debian only supports Debian and pure <blend>s; please respect our choice to volunteer here to help Debian users. Support for other distributions is off-topic on #debian, even if your own distro's channel is clueless or non-existent.
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07:01<hexa->is there a gnusocial account for debian? since twitter isn't endorsed :)
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07:02<amacater>Try IRC as the best first step
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07:06<dalk>hexa-: see <>
07:06<dalk>mote info <>
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07:23<luizromario>Hello, all. I have a question: the nvidia legacy driver present in the backports repo is not compatible with my video card. Should I upgrade to stretch?
07:23<luizromario>My video card is: 00:0d.0 VGA compatible controller: NVIDIA Corporation C61 [GeForce 7025 / nForce 630a] (rev a2)
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07:24<amacater>Try it - it may be that the free driver (nouveau) will now be entirely adequate
07:25<amacater>The only reason I suggest this is because I've been installing new laptops - one time I left out the nividia drivers by mistake and the laptop was usable
07:26<amacater>If this is your only machine, back up your data / anything valuable beforehand
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08:01<suntzu_>just a question about the release, is it indeed happening today?
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08:03<suntzu_>congrats in any case
08:03<suntzu_>I am sure it is going to be a great job
08:04<olasd>Ganneff has tried to jinx the process all morning but seems to have failed so far
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08:04<@Ganneff>im trying my worst
08:04<@Ganneff>doesnt seem to work
08:04<suntzu_>take it easy
08:04<jmw>you nearly managed it
08:04<RattusRattus>jmw: don't talk about that :-p
08:04<@Ganneff>still failed
08:04<suntzu_>maybe after a pizza and a glass of wine?
08:05<olasd>suntzu_: has live progress updates
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08:05<suntzu_>one cannot properly think without enough wine
08:05<suntzu_>oh, great
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08:15<dvs>Where's Stretch? Huh? Huh? Huh?
08:15<@Ganneff>you wont get it
08:16<dvs>dang it!
08:16<@Ganneff>im keeping it all for me
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08:19<Thraul>dvs: stretch is currently being tested for release. You can follow the annoucements as the team builds, tests and releases here:
08:19<dvs>Thraul, but (for once) I read the topic!
08:19<Thraul>haha not many people do :P
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08:42<bittin->Debian release party @
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08:50<grzegorz>Hello! I remember the day of Jessie release, before the actual release moment, someone on this channel wrote: "Freedom!" and then gave the direct link to the already present (but hidden) Jessie isos on main mirror :)
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08:53<yulax>Free the ISOs from webpage zero-reference pergury!
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10:06<medicalwei>\OwO/ (waits for ISO builds)
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10:14<GameFan90>hello :)
10:14<GameFan90>i need help getting my wireless to work (Broadcom 14e4:4315)
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10:15<markus-k>I'm having a problem connecting via xrdp to a xfce4 session on stretch
10:16<markus-k>I get "some problem" connecting to vnc session, log says "[DEBUG] VNC error 1 after security negotiation". Any ideas?
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10:17<GameFan90>my wireless is not working...
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10:18<GameFan90>please help :)
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10:19<GameFan90>i'm using a test build of debian 9
10:19<GameFan90>hold on...
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10:26<dude_>When will sid get the unofficial freeze lifted (I know it's not a real freeze, but it does slow down). What I'm basically asking is when can I expect kernel 4.11 in sid?
10:26<GameFan90>when i installed debian, it didn't install the wireless drivers
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10:27<petn-randall>GameFan90: You likely don't have the non-free firmware that's needed for it to work:
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10:27<dpkg>Firmware is software to operate electronic devices, usually contained in EPROM or flash memory. Some Linux kernel drivers require firmware to be provided from userspace, notably for <WiFi> devices. Most firmware files are not part of a Debian release as they do not conform to the <DFSG>; some are available via <contrib> and <non-free> packages, ask me about <search>. See also <installer firmware>.
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10:28<petn-randall>GameFan90: Usually it's enough to add the contrib and non-free repos, then just install "firmware-linux".
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10:30<dude_>When will sid get linux 4.11, approximately?
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10:33<dtw>dude_, I don't know but the upstream kernel is easy to build. Like this: make menuconfig; make; make bindeb-pkg; sudo dpkg --install ../*.deb
10:34<dtw>(And before that: sudo apt install build-essential libssl-dev libncursesw5-dev bc)
10:35<medicalwei>GameFan90: Probably look for broadcom-wl for non-free driver that requires most Broadcom wireless LAN to work.
10:35<medicalwei>It is true if you have Apple-branded computers.
10:35<petn-randall>medicalwei: They're unfortunately already getting support in #debian-next. (crosspost)
10:35<dude_>dtw, I haven't been on debian that long is it normal for it to take this long (also 4.10) or is it because of stretch?
10:36<judd>Available kernel versions are: experimental: 4.11.0-trunk-686 (4.11.3-1~exp1); sid: 4.9.0-3-686 (4.9.30-2); stretch: 4.9.0-3-686 (4.9.30-2); jessie-backports: 4.9.0-0.bpo.3-686 (4.9.25-1~bpo8+1); jessie: 3.16.0-4-686-pae (3.16.43-2); wheezy-backports: 3.16.0-0.bpo.4-686-pae (3.16.39-1+deb8u1~bpo70+1); wheezy: 3.2.0-4-686-pae (3.2.88-1)
10:36<petn-randall>dude_: Just take the one from experimental?
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10:37<dude_>It is more or less safe?
10:38<dude_>Okay thanks, will do
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10:38-!-Citr0xic is "Citr0xic" on #debian-next #debian-it #debian
10:39<petn-randall>dude_: Just as safe as any other kernel, though it's been less tested.
10:39<petn-randall>dude_: Any reason you need 4.11?
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10:41<dude_>Yeah, 4.12 would be even better. I have a Cherry Trail netbook, so the newer the better
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10:42<dude_>Linux is slowly making progress with cherry trail
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10:44<bittin->any idea for when isos are up?
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10:46<piper>bittin-: when there done, really shouldn't be asking for OTA's different parts of the world, different times, etc complicated
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11:52<lemoer>is there any channel where people are working on the upcomming debian release?
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12:18<lemoer>helpme: hello
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12:18<helpme>lemoer: I'm unable to install Debian on my computer.
12:19<lemoer>helpme: that's bad
12:19<helpme>I copied the 8.8.0 ISO to my USB device, and I get just a blinking cursor on black background;
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12:19<lemoer>helpme: how did you copy it?
12:19<helpme>I tried cp and dd
12:19<dalk>also: where did you download the image from?
12:20<helpme>dalk: from
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12:20<helpme>'debian-8.8.0-amd64-DVD-1.iso.torrent 2017-05-06 17:41 75K '
12:21<Champers>that ain't an ISO...
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12:22<Champers>helpme: try again with the ISO from this link :
12:23<helpme>OK Champers
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12:23<helpme>The download will be finished in half an hour
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12:23<Champers>slow internet link ?
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12:24<helpme>No Champers; it's not using my full connection capacity
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12:26<DragomirPazura>hi, anyone knows the hour of transition to debian stretch or is it "it'll be ready when it'll be ready"?
12:27<helpme>lemoer , dalk , Champers: does it matters the type of filesystem used on my USB 'thumb drive'? I tried FAT mostly, but also NTFS.
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12:27<Champers>helpme: yes it matters
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12:27<helpme>Which one to use, Champers ?
12:27<Omochao>about 3 hours of posts just disappeared from
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12:27<Champers>helpme: you can't just drop an ISO on a thumb drive and expect it to boot
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12:28<helpme>Champers: the tutorial just says to use the copy command, because the iso is hybrid.
12:28<Champers>if you're uncertain, download CD1 ( and dd it to your usb drive
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12:28<Champers>I know that CD1 is hybrid, uncertain for the netinstall image
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12:29<mtn>helpme: yes, just using cp works fine with the debian iso
12:29<helpme>Although there is no article about isohybrid on Wikipedia, so I'm uncertain if it really exist
12:29<grawity>iirc, the netinstall iso is also hybrid
12:29<mtn>helpme: in that case, the format doesn't matter at all, it gets overwritten
12:30<Champers>mtn : cp'ing to the dev device then, not just to the usb drive's mountpoint
12:30<grawity>helpme: doesn't the tutorial say to `cp` the image on top of the *whole device*, not into a mounted fs?
12:30<mtn>Champers: of course
12:30<helpme>Champers: I already downloaded DVD1 and dd'd it. Should I do it with CD1 instead of DVD1? Does it matters?
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12:30<Champers>dvd1 should be just as good I guess
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12:31<helpme>grawity: I could not understand what you meant.
12:31<helpme>You mean '/dev/sdb1', for example? I did this
12:31<grawity>well I mean /dev/sdb
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12:33<thoreau>I'm trying to create an alias to use pirate-get to find a torrent and then throw it over to peerflix to get it streamed.
12:33<thoreau>I'm gonna call it "peerflix-get"
12:34<thoreau>I would like to make two variations of the command, for audio files and video files.
12:35<thoreau>I *would* like to call these commands "peerflix-get audio" and "peerflix-get video"
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12:35<thoreau>Or "peerflix-get -audio"
12:36<thoreau>That would seem to be gramatically correct.
12:36<grawity>that's more within the realm of functions or shellscripts, not aliases
12:36<thoreau>Ah, I see.
12:37<thoreau>Yes, I think that would be better. Thanks grawity.
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12:37<grawity>and whether you're making a function or a shell script, it's nearly the same – use 'if' or 'case' to check "$1", and e.g. "${@:2}" is the remainder
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12:41<thoreau>I never did a shell script where the was a textual input from the user before. Could you refer me a resource for me to learn that grawity?
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12:57<helpme>Hello thoreau
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12:58<helpme>lemoer , dalk , Champers: I finished downloading
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13:00<helpme>cp debian-8.8.0-amd64-netinst.iso /dev/sdb1
13:01<amacater>helpme: You might want to wait a couple of hours and download Debian 9 :( If you're trying to create a bootable USB stick, copy is not the correct way ...
13:01<helpme>Same result...
13:01<helpme>blinking white cursor on black background
13:01<helpme>amacater: should I use dd instead of cp? I think the same thing will happen
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13:02<dtw>helpme, if /dev/sdb is your cd/usb stcik then use /dev/sdb (not /dev/sdb1).
13:02<amacater>dd if=debian-8.8.0-amd64-netinst.iso of=/dev/sdb where sdb is your USB stick -
13:02<mc68040>helpme: i use "cat debian-8.8.0-amd64-netinst.iso >/dev/sdb" to make bootable usb stick
13:02<amacater>Then boot from the USB stick
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13:02<helpme>dtw: it appears my USB thumb drive has the number "1" on it's location
13:03<amacater>cat may work dd also works
13:03<mc68040>helpme: to write on /dev/sdb1 (partiton!) is not the right way
13:03<amacater>overwriting it with dd you need the whole USB stick so sdb
13:03<helpme>It's shown like that on gnome-disk-utility
13:03<helpme>OK amacater
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13:04<amacater>This means that the USB stick should be bootable - once you're done with it and installed, then use parted / gparted or whatever to wipe it and put a filesystem on it.
13:04<helpme>When using just "/dev/sdb" the copy command works much faster
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13:06<dude>Does someone know when a swaywm package will be available in the repository
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13:06<helpme>Thanks amacater
13:06<helpme>Now I can install
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13:07<dalk>clap-clap ! :D
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13:07<dtw>helpme, there is also installation manual:
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13:08<helpme>For me it was not obvious that sdb1 meant partition 1 of "sdb"
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13:08<helpme>I even guessed /dev/ was /dev/elopment, and not /dev/ices
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13:11<DeViL-CHaoS>when Will be abble to download the new debían 9?
13:11<pi_>Im trying Parrot Linux for the first time, How about you?
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13:11<pi_>also idk
13:12<LunaSela>DeViL-CHaoS: when it is done. Testing of CD images is currently in progress.
13:12<DeViL-CHaoS>do You think Will be todas?
13:12<dpkg>Parrot OS ( is a security and penetration testing distribution. It is based on Debian testing, but it is not Debian and is not supported in #debian. Seek help in #parrot on or try the mailing lists at Also ask me about <based on debian>.
13:12<petn-randall>pi_: ^^^
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13:13<jmw>it depends how you define today
13:13<pi_>i dont really follow debian
13:13<DeViL-CHaoS>Noe un mundo country os 19:13
13:13<DeViL-CHaoS>in my country*
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13:13<jmw>late tonight then, maybe early hours tomorrow mornin
13:14<SeymourSkinner>Isn't there a channel we can join where all the developers post their updates that we can monitor?
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13:14<DeViL-CHaoS>ok thanks you
13:14<zeta> has some updates
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13:15<SeymourSkinner>A moderated channel where only the developers have voice as there was with Jessie?
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13:16<jmw>all the fun is in #debian-cd at the moment, where you can also help
13:16<pi_>is maria_db better than mysql
13:16<Mr_KaShAnA>Hi, I'd love to become a translator. What should I do?
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13:16<Guest2624>Does someone know when a swaywm package will be available in the repository?
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13:17<Mr_KaShAnA>OK, thanks
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13:18<Ionic>hmm... is debian-ports-archive-keyring in jessie outdated?
13:18<dalk>SeymourSkinner: there is also #releasingstretch but I am not there so not sure...
13:19<Ionic>it looks like a new key was introduced/used since 11/2016, but the version in jessie is from 2014 and thus lacks that key
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13:24<suntzu_>already released ?
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13:26<DragomirPazura>suntzu_, no and subscribe to to get mail once it'll be released
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13:28<DragomirPazura>there's no specific hour of release. It'll be ready when it'll be ready some time today
13:28<Mr_KaShAnA>Excuse me, but I still don't know what to do. Do I need to sign in to some mailing list? :/
13:28<DragomirPazura>You can to get notification, although you don't need to
13:29<DragomirPazura>Just make sure you have STABLE repository set in /etc/apt/sources.list
13:29<DragomirPazura>not jessie
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13:30<DragomirPazura>then you'll get it instantly once it'll be pushed to stable repo and you'll do apt update
13:30<amacater>BEFORE YOU UPDATE - read the release instructions for update
13:30<lysander666>Can I not change Jessie to Stretch in sources.list?
13:30<amacater>leave it set to Jessie until you know what the update procedures are
13:30<lysander666>And remove backports
13:31<lysander666>or comment out
13:31<lysander666>ok ama
13:31<amacater>You can - but your problems may be yours. apt-get update ; apt-get dist-upgrade might be enough but it's worth doing a dummy run. Stretch uses systemd by default, for example, and many drivers have changed.
13:32<DragomirPazura>lysander666, don't change jessie to stretch as you'll get still frozen 1 week old testing repository instead of actual stable release
13:32-!-csotelo [~csotelo@2001:1388:49c6:5c38:1513:89ca:be23:6b46] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
13:32<DragomirPazura>at least not yet manually
13:32<amacater>Mysql changed to mariadb, I think
13:32<SeymourSkinner>Next year is the 25th anniversary of Debian
13:32<amacater>Stable release is really on it's way
13:33<amacater>Install images are being tested now - the last thngs to be updated will be the web site
13:33<DragomirPazura>lysander666, first read this
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13:34<DragomirPazura>once you'll do every preparation before updating then you're good to change jessie to stable in sources and then just wait till stretch is released
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13:35<lysander666>thanks Dragomir
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13:36<DragomirPazura>also comment out backports
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13:40<Ionic>hm and something looks wrong with the debian-ports Release file
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13:44<Speed2u>Stretch release today?
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13:45<amacater>Ongoing today - Mirrors have not yet completed change over. Install media is being built as we speak. may help
13:46<sney>/etc/debian_version on my stretch laptop says 9.0 now, so it's getting close
13:46<amacater>In the past, releases have taken until past 200 UTC :)
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13:54<sney>someone should just livestream from pabs's house
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14:04<Mellnik>Hi, when exactly can i download debian 9 stable?
14:04<sney>there is no specific time, but soon
14:04<grawity>the moment it is released, and not a second earlier
14:05<Mellnik>yeah I know but the day is almost over here in germany :(
14:06<sney>so check back tomorrow
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14:09<DragomirPazura>Mellnik, you can sign to debian-announce mailing list to get notified in mail once it'll be released. Check
14:10<dalk>you can download stretch now, it is just not announced as "stable" yet but it will be the same...
14:10<DragomirPazura>it won't
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14:11<petn-randall>DragomirPazura: How so?
14:11<DragomirPazura>it's 1 week old or so frozen testing repository
14:11<DragomirPazura>and may bug
14:11<amacater>Install stretch tonight. update tomorrow - or wait a few hours
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14:11<DragomirPazura>I'd rather not install stretch now. I tried it myself and mouse settings were dead
14:12<petn-randall>DragomirPazura: It's been in full freeze since February.
14:12<amacater>frozen testing repository was updated with fixes over the last week
14:12<sney>at this point in the dev cycle, "testing" is the new stable release. there might be one or two tiny updates between now and when the release is announced, but it's essentially done
14:12<SeymourSkinner>You can track progress on the wiki join cd-release
14:12<petn-randall>Yes, installing it from the stretch RC5 installer with give you exactly the same system you'd get with the released one.
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14:13<SeymourSkinner>Excuse me join Debian-cd
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14:13<sney>but if it makes you feel better to wait until the official stable media is out, don't let us stop you ^^
14:13<amacater>Given that the cd install images are being built, the mirrors are being switched over, the release announcement is nearly here ...
14:13<DragomirPazura>I'd still wait till it's officially released. See above - I had issues with touchpad settings when I updated to stretch just yesterday
14:13*amacater has been testing installs for a chunk of the day - hold on for a couple of hours
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14:13<Mellnik>can't wait to have the good bits of debian-9.0-amd64-netinst.iso laying on my storage
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14:13<DragomirPazura>and dpkg errors when installing firefox-esr after removing iceweasel
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14:14<sney>DragomirPazura: if you were having touchpad issues yesterday you will still have them today. HOWEVER, that's more likely due to the libinput migration, and you just need to upgrade some settings
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14:14<amacater>DragomirPazura - the firefox-esr transition was a while ago so has been working for a few months ...
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14:15<DragomirPazura>I know. It still somehow died randomly on my PC
14:15<DragomirPazura>maybe my PC is haunted or something?
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14:15<sney>I can't count how many times I've had some dependency hell issue only to realize I had pinned or held some package 9 months ago and forgot about it
14:15<DragomirPazura>everything bugs here and debian seems to be the only linux that mostly just works lol
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14:16<petn-randall>DragomirPazura: As always, if you have issues with Debian simply ask in here, and we'll try to resolve it.
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14:17<DragomirPazura>I'll wait a few days before upgrading
14:17<amacater>At this point, Stretch is near enough here that we won't send you to #debian-next :)
14:18<BassSpleen>Hello, I'm sorry I'm sure you've been asked this question a lot today, stretch is supposed to release today, but I can't find any link to download it. Sorry if I missed something.
14:18<Mellnik>I hope the internet is ready for debian 9 downloaders
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14:18<ravenlx>I and a friend had problems with the DVD images for rc4. I don't know if it was our DVDs but the install would stop working after installing software and say that it failed. This was after changing DVDs as requested after scanning and it installing everything. Then it wouldn't clean up. Going from USB works but can of course only use one image/iso. Was this fixed or is it just the DVDs quality?
14:18<neil_>Are there any Debian devs or other affiliated people here? If so I just want to say thanks for a great, rock solid distro and for all the hard work that goes into it.
14:18<sney>BassSpleen: it's almost there, just in the final steps
14:18<BassSpleen>Thx sney ! Will have to wait then :)
14:19<SeymourSkinner>Join #debian-cd for all the status updates
14:19<ravenlx>Also on some laptops (mine and my friends' laptop) the DVD tray does not open or eject. Had to go to term and then it was bear to fight with.
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14:19<ravenlx>@neil_ well said - my sentiments as well! You guys all rock!
14:20<Mellnik>At work debian servers just work meanwhile windows servers try to keep up sending telemetry to micro$oft
14:20<amacater>OK - CD images still being tested -all mirrors not yet updated. The final push will be when CDs are ready ...
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14:21<SeymourSkinner>Unrelated to stretch - who here has the lpic 2 certification and how tough is it to get?
14:23<amacater>It needs work - I got half of it, many years ago :) there ought to be someone at LPI who can tell you :)
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14:23<x>hey guys. any link to debian 9 iso amd64 ?
14:24<x>or torrent so I cant seed
14:24<Mellnik>reddit says midnight UTC
14:24<x>ops. can*
14:24<itd>x: Not yet.
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14:25<x>itd: thank you
14:25<sney>if only one of the bot owners was around, we could get debhelper to /notice people the basic release updates on join
14:26<ansgar>sney: You could have chanserv do that...
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14:26<BassSpleen>How about chan topic ?
14:26<sney>or chanserv, yeah. I always forget what services oftc has.
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14:26<sney>but I don't think anyone with those privs is here anyway
14:27<sney>BassSpleen: nobody reads the topic
14:27<petn-randall>BassSpleen: Experience say that is ignored 100% of the time.
14:27<amacater>See above at 18:20 or so
14:27<ansgar>sney: It just needs CHANOP, not MASTER.
14:27<sney>ansgar: ok, are you one of those? I'm not
14:28<sney>I suppose we could call ops but that would be rude
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14:28<ansgar>I'm not either :)
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14:29<BassSpleen>Reading the topic is the first thing I did though...Even before joining the chan (I came here only to get some news since there are none on the debian website)
14:29<BassSpleen>But yea, I guess most people wouldn't read it
14:29<SeymourSkinner>Well if you guys want some reading I've already reviewed stretch
14:29<DragomirPazura>sadly polari can't view full topic easily
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14:29<DragomirPazura>oh right, there's a command
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14:29<qxt>Must be blind. Cant find the Stretch iso. Has it been released?
14:30<amacater> is giving updates
14:30<DragomirPazura>not yet, qxt
14:30<amacater>CD images still being tested
14:30<petn-randall>qxt: Not yet, it's being built.
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14:31*sney wonders if they should have just said the release was tomorrow
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14:31*DragomirPazura wants to see the flood on this channel when someone will give info "debian is ready, go download"
14:31<amacater>It's still not 23:59 UTC
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14:32<ansgar>sney: I suggest to include that the release is only available late evening/next day in the announcments the next time :)
14:32<ansgar>suggested even.
14:32<sney>good man
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14:32<sney>amacater: was that given as an official time somewhere? I thought it was just a redditor guessing
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14:33<john>If you are feeling adventurous, you can help test what may possibly be the final images from here:
14:33<BassSpleen>I'm ok with the release not being today, or tomorrow, I like debian because it works, and if requires a week of testing i'm fine with that. The only problem I have is saying release date is today but not having any news about it
14:33<amacater>No, it's not - but I do remember, last release, that it ran up to almost that :)
14:33<ansgar>sney: #-release had something about midnight as an estimage.
14:33<sney>ah ok
14:33<amacater> / planet.debian / debian on
14:33<amacater>Lots of news sources :)
14:34<BassSpleen>Yea, and I only found those sources by coming here
14:34<ansgar>We just have to push the "push archive to mirrors" button once images are ready to go :)
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14:35<BassSpleen>I mean, that's why so many people come here asking the same question
14:35<sney>the internet's expectations of how we should handle releases have changed a lot since jessie dropped, iirc
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14:35<sney>people didn't expect as much immediacy last time. probably a few factors there
14:36<BassSpleen>Again, I don't mind if it's not released today, I mind that it's not clear how to get news about it
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14:36<DragomirPazura>I wonder if Debian could use Matrix IM as secondary platform for support group
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14:36<annadane>so does this mean we can redirect questions about stretch to #debian-next before midnight UTC? :D
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14:36<grawity>is there a #debian-prev for oldstable
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14:36<sney>oldstable is generally just supported in here
14:37<sney>especially since a large proportion of oldstable support is "upgrade to stable"
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14:37<sney>hmm, I have some vms I'll have to do that on. there's my week ha
14:37<grawity>I wonder if I should s/stretch/testing/ on my servers
14:37<DragomirPazura>I wish there was Matrix-to-IRC or IRC-to-Matrix bridge for Debian groups
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14:38<slacko_10551>is there a debian discord?
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14:38<john>I wish we could get rid of all online communication channels and communicate by sending postcards to each other.
14:38<DragomirPazura>why not
14:39<DragomirPazura>not official ones, slacko_10551
14:39<slacko_10551>"I have a quick question" *sends postcard and waits a week for person to reply "idk"*
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14:40<sney>if one of those irc "replacements" gets a strong foothold and is suitably Free then eventually debian will have official support there, but I wouldn't hold my breath tbh
14:40<sney>nothing stopping people from creating unofficial groups though.
14:40<DragomirPazura>Matrix is FLOSS decentralised platform and it supports IRC bridges
14:40<sney>I see that, but it's also pretty niche atm
14:41<DragomirPazura>true that
14:41<DragomirPazura>There's web client available though
14:41<grawity>what's the difference between "deb <url>/debian foo-updates" and "deb <url>/debian-security foo/updates"
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14:42<sney>grawity: one of them is security updates, the other is non-security fixes in between point releases
14:42<grawity>sney: so I should have both, in addition to the main "<url>/debian foo" repo?
14:42<sney>ideally yes
14:42<grawity>ok, makes sense
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14:42<john>Speaking of which, the URL for debian-security should be; using a mirror for security updates is not recommended, hence the reason the security updates are separated to begin with.
14:42<annadane>debian discord actually sounds like a super cool idea
14:42<grawity>(I think lxc defaults to only two...)
14:43<annadane>not an official one per se but just any one
14:43<DragomirPazura>Discord is not FOSS
14:43<DragomirPazura>so cross it out
14:43<john>^ Discord is a step backwards.
14:43<annadane>well, matrix then
14:43<DragomirPazura>However you can make unofficial group if you want
14:43<DragomirPazura>Matrix when it'll be more mature and more popular
14:44<sney>many have tried
14:44<DragomirPazura>There's still problem with clients for Matrix
14:44<annadane>FOSS unfortunately just isn't that popular
14:44<john>I know this sounds crazy, but I think we should try to make Debian IRC channels.
14:44<annadane>it comes down to brand name recognition
14:44<DragomirPazura>There's an attempt done by Telegram, however it has proprietary server and you still need to make an account to talk
14:45<annadane>is matrix in the debian repo?
14:45<grawity>what's the biggest issue with IRC, though?
14:45<DragomirPazura>IRC is granny
14:45<tensorpudding>Hard to use.
14:45<sney>no stickers
14:45<DragomirPazura>No images mostly
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14:45<grawity>I mean, what's the part that makes it hard to use compared to e.g. matrix/riot
14:46<DragomirPazura>annadane no, client is named riot-web and it's in its own repo
14:46<sney>the eye-roll heard round the world when people join #hexchat demanding support for inline images/emoji/stickers etc
14:46<grawity>(besides /msg nickserv)
14:46<tensorpudding>Who needs images when you have emoji?
14:46<DragomirPazura>grawity - no easy way to send screenshot of something, no support for breaking lines
14:46<sney>even services interaction is automated in some clients
14:46<tensorpudding>(the real emoji that are actually ji and not just pictures)
14:46<john>Who needs emoji when you have ASCII art?
14:47<neil_>Is there any Raspberry Pi arm7/arm64 support in Stretch? I know there was an image on the (iirc) Debian wiki, but I wasn't clear how official or not that was
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14:47<DragomirPazura>and how are you supposed to do ascii art if you can't put breaks in your lines, john
14:48<sney>neil_: arm7 yes, but not the earlier arm6hf models
14:48<john>What I usually do is install Raspbian and then change my sources.list to switch to Debian's repos that way.
14:48<DragomirPazura>IMHO the main problem with IRC is just it's 26 years old and you can't easily do anything else than sending string of text
14:49<john>You can't put breaks in your lines!? This is my first day on IRC, and I'm starting to see the problems with it.
14:49<DragomirPazura>that's all
14:49<ravenlx>I hadn't done IRC in years. The first thing I looked for when I was trying to find a client to come in here today was XChat, which I'm using. Tried and true. I'm old. :)
14:49<sney>tried and true and somewhat insecure
14:49<neil_>sney: Yes, I know Debian hasn't supported arm6 (hence Raspbian, another great distro), but it's great news that there's official support.
14:49<slacko_10551>I have Xchat too, and it's newer version "HexChat"
14:50<DragomirPazura>Myself I'm using Polari
14:50<ravenlx>What type of security is compromised in an old IRC client? Did I pick the wrong one?
14:50-!-avdija1 [] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep]
14:50<DragomirPazura>good enough for joining just debian channels
14:50<john>Woah, I'm using Polari!
14:50<amacater>neil_ Raspberry Pi relies on non-free firmware - there is a good debootstrap based install - see Debian wiki - I have stretch running on Pi 2 and Pi 3
14:50<ravenlx>@slacko_10551: Hex chat is an updated XChat? Didn't even realize it.
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14:50<dpkg>Raspbian is a distribution <based on Debian> made specifically for the <Raspberry Pi>. Raspbian is not Debian and it is not supported in #debian. Please use #raspbian on for support.
14:50<DragomirPazura>Everything is in plain text, ravents
14:51<tensorpudding>ravenlx: You're vulnerable to high-tech ransomware like WannaCry
14:51<ravenlx>I don't get into IRC hardly ever. In fact, I rarely do chat.
14:51<DragomirPazura>ravenlx, not ravents^
14:51<maurom>what? no emojis in IRC? 😞
14:51<ravenlx>@tensorpudding: ROTFLMAO! No I'm not! I use Linux! :D
14:51<sney>ravenlx: deprecated SSL protocols/conventions mainly. between you and a mainstream network like this one, not a big deal, but can't guarantee that everywhere. and yes hexchat is the currently maintained fork of xchat, which was abandoned in 2010
14:51<amacater>... but don't mix Raspbian and Debian on a Pi - it's a recipe for frankenDebian
14:51<DragomirPazura>there are
14:52<ravenlx>Anyway, I should have fired this up in a VM and THEN crow. I just hope now I'm not about to EAT crow!
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14:52<neil_>amacater Yes - I know Eric Anholt has been working to on a FOSS version of the firmware, but I was hoping there was enough of it in mainline kernel now for Debian to be okay with it
14:53<tensorpudding>It's not impossible to get infected with ransomware for Linux but there is a lack of people trying to write it.
14:53<ravenlx>Besides, I remember the good old days of BBSs and information services before GUI even was a thing. In fact, I was there when the internet was browsed with Lynx (is that still around?) - so I don't mind "just text".
14:53<DragomirPazura>Samba leak, rensorpudding
14:53<john>Lynx is still around, I use it sometimes.
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14:53<tensorpudding>Even if they don't have root they can still mess up your personal files. They just need to somehow get run on your computer.
14:54<john>Not if you're using a read-only filesystem.
14:54<DragomirPazura>which might happen via compromised PPA... or AUR :)
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14:54<ravenlx>@tensorpudding: I think that's 99% of it. Lack of "interested parties". Android has viruses these days. That's the thing. I would love Linux to be the standard OS everywhere but if it becomes that, then it might end up attracting unsavory folks. How would the dev community respond?
14:54<tensorpudding>If Windows were as popular as Linux by the kind of people who use Windows it's not likely that it would have much ransomware written for it either.
14:55<DragomirPazura>say "don't install from untrusted sources", that's all I guess
14:55<sney>linux is essentially the standard OS for web hosting and you do see malware getting in via linux flaws, though mostly it boils down to improper setup of php applications
14:55<amacater>Debian (arm7) on Pi - see wiki - still imports firmware from Raspberry Pi foundation in hte script, I think
14:55<ravenlx>@tensorpudding: The rate M$t is going, that may end up being the case. I gave up on Windows in 2013. It got that bad. :(
14:55<DragomirPazura>yeah, there are viruses on Android. However you'll probably never ever be remotely near one if you don't install apps from untrusted sources
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14:56<DragomirPazura>I guess it'd be similar with Linux
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14:56<ravenlx>@sney: You make a good point. I'm a server admin for a web hosting company and have seen customers (who don't like upgrading their scripts) put in the darndest plugins and get screwed over big time. Then ask for help. :( Most of that is database and PHP injection junk.
14:57<john>The way Android handles security is awful. Relying on individual device manufacturers to release security updates is a bad approach.
14:57<ravenlx>Linux being open source and used on the web and also in some other institutions, I'm surprised that more malware hasn't reared it's ugly head. Yet I'm also very glad.
14:58<john>I'm very glad that you're here ;)
14:58<DragomirPazura>I guess all Linux advices if it was mainstream OS would be just "stick to official sources, think twice before adding any external repository, don't autostart flash, laugh at Arch users getting crap pushed through AUR"
14:58<ravenlx>@john: especially if you happen to be too poor for anything updated and have to rely on a TracFone which NEVER gets updated!
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14:58<amacater>There's an amount of malware - there's also good security support, co-operation between distros and very regular updates
14:58<ravenlx>@john: Glad I'm here or someone else (don't want to appear vain). :)
14:58<sney>there's good privilege separation on *nix stuff in general which makes it harder for malware to get a foothold, at least compared to windows where a UAC prompt is more of an annoying clickthrough dialog than anything for most users
14:59<amacater>.. which can't be verified for closed software
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14:59<annadane>well, i'm sure malware does rear its ugly head, things just get patched quicker
14:59<ravenlx>I also wonder if a lot of problems come when someone roots their phone so they can hack it to get more space to store games, etc. or do something else they think they need to do.
14:59<tensorpudding>Wonder what Linux exploits have been weaponized by the NSA
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15:00<amacater>Basically, all software is bad, reliant on foundations built on sand - but FLOSS gets to fix it more quickly and openly
15:00<annadane>also i mean, the average linux user knows how to use things better than the average windows user
15:00<annadane>it doesn't help that windows discourages exploration of how computers work
15:00<DragomirPazura>ravenlx - rooting your phone is basically the same as having superuser access on your account via sudo
15:00<DragomirPazura>on your linux account^
15:00<DragomirPazura>you get prompts before too
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15:00<ravenlx>@annadane: Probably because most "average linux users" are those who know what they are doing, and not all are Windows converts who can't even find the power button in front of their faces. LOL!"
15:01<tensorpudding>It'd be great if we could move to the stage where people could not have to worry about how their computer works and not suffer for it, but that's not the world yet.
15:02<DragomirPazura>ravenlx, I successfully managed to teach just average Joe how to Linux. He just keeps windows XP on disk in case if something won't work through wine
15:02<ravenlx>@DragonmirPazura: I had rooted phones and tablets in the past, but don't see the need on my TracFone. I've rooted Genymotion VM to get Google Play working, though. I've even reflashed ROMs on old Android tablets like iCraigs. So yeah, I do agree with you there.
15:02<kpcyrd>hmm, is stretch released already? /msg dpkg stretch says it is, the topic says it isn't
15:03<sney>kpcyrd: almost
15:03<DragomirPazura>kpcyrd, not yet. Images are built
15:03<kpcyrd>nice, thanks :)
15:03<ryouma>the issue i have with debian booting. the complexity of the initramfs and grub setup and update mechanism, while intended for computer-naive users, screw up so much because of that complexity that they actually make it more complex for all users including naive users
15:03<amacater>It's on its way - final mirror push hasn't happened. cd images being built for all architectures
15:03<ravenlx>@DragonmirPazura: I taught someone how to use Windows 98 once. He didn't know even what the "desktop" was! Two weeks later he diagnosed a hard drive problem and installed a new HD and even reinstalled windows and reloaded his data (which he knew to back up)! So some do catch on very quickly!
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15:03<DragomirPazura>windows 98... I know that's madness
15:03<ryouma>tensorpudding: ^
15:04<amacater>ryouma - a straight install means that it should work for most people - and updates work to update initramfs, grub etc - it's _fairly_ foolproof :)
15:04<DragomirPazura>7 to 9 years ago I often used windows 98 in school as gaming PC after lessons... no more pls
15:04<suntzu_>released ?
15:05<ravenlx>DragomirPazura: About that time I was already dual-booting with Mandrake (what is it called now?)
15:05<DragomirPazura>it's mageia now
15:05<amacater>On it's way - you might want to look at / / for updates
15:05<ryouma>amacater: my needs are modest, but it screwed up, and i had to learn debugging of initramfs. i don't think ordinary users (i am one) should have to even know what an initramfs is.
15:06<DragomirPazura>ravenlx, about that time I was 10 years old and I didn't really think about tech stuff a lot. I only got angry at PCs in school when they BSODed yet another time on Icy Tower or something
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15:06<ryouma>i was left on my own to figure out the booting mechanism
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15:06<amacater>boot from install medium, select rescue, reinstall grub will usually do it
15:06<amacater>Dual boot is harder, of course
15:07<DragomirPazura>ravenlx, maybe go to PM with offtopic?
15:07<Walex>ryouma: "i don't think ordinary users (i am one) should have to even know what an initramfs is"
15:07<Walex>ryouma: that's an absurd expectation.
15:08<Walex>ryouma: there are only two practically possible situations:
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15:09<Walex>ryouma: you as an ordinary user are given a compurer/OS as a sealed product, "no serviceable parts inside", not modifiable or configurable, and when it breaks you take it to a service centre.
15:10<Walex>ryouma: or you take a computer/OS as an "integrator's kit" and you build the kit and integrate the parts and then you are a system integration engineer.
15:10<ryouma>Walex: there is an argumetn to be made there, sure. but if the complexity of the initramfs in debian, with all its bugs where it fails to boot becuase it cannot find lvm (and yuo hve never installed lvm in your life), for example, is due to making it better for newcomers, then it failed.
15:11<ryouma>i'd rather either have a non-complex initramfs, with no bugs, or one that really does work
15:11<annadane>i think everyone agrees clear documentation for newbies would be welcome here as in any distro
15:11<maurom>suntzu_, not yet. As amacater said, check or stay over here until the announcement. I think we're all expectant.
15:11<Walex>ryouma: but Debian is not sold to you as a sealed "no serviceable parts inside" product.
15:11<ryouma>s/initramfs/booting mechanism/
15:11<annadane>obligatory comment about arch blah blah
15:11<ryouma>Walex: of course. i think you're not listening.
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15:11<Walex>ryouma: you are talking of the third option, which is not practicablly possible:
15:11<ryouma>Walex: i'd rather debian's boot stuff be /less/ user friendly, in order to be actually more user friendly
15:12<john>Arch is not real.
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15:12<ryouma>the complexity is getting in the way. it trips.
15:12<ryouma>over itself.
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15:12<ryouma>maybe that alternative to grub would be an improvement?
15:13<Walex>ryouma: the system/OS is designed from the ground up to be an easy-to-use, composable, snap-together-blocks, kit, so that moderately sophisticated users can do some configuration and modification without being system engineers.
15:13<ryouma>annadane: yeah, i've heard arch tries to be less complex, dunno if it succeeds or not so did not mention it
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15:13<dpkg>arch is probably a hardware architecture (i386, amd64, armel, mips, mipsel, sparc, powerpc, alpha, hppa, s390 && ia64). Also a source control revision system (GNU arch). Arch (and its twin brother ArX) resides at, or, or #arch Since lenny, /bin/arch has disappeared, use "uname -m" instead, or <architecture>, or <arch linux>.
15:13<Walex>ryouma: that third case cannot be done in practice. it would require a complete redesign from the ground up of Linux and all GNU apps.
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15:13<annadane>i meant the arch wiki
15:14<annadane>not arch itself
15:14<ryouma>arch wiki rocks! imo.
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15:14<annadane>if you explain things to people patiently using clear language they can understand then any idiot can figure things out
15:14<ryouma>Walex: i think you're in "defend debian" mode. debate over debian is not why i mentioned my experience and not what i am here for.
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15:15<annadane>which of course is the main problem with some documentation where the person writing the documentation is an expert writing for other experts
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15:15<Walex>ryouma: oh I am not defending debian, I am just explaining why UNIX and MS-Windows have exceptionally steep learning curves if one wants to do configuration and modification: "because history".
15:15<annadane>like the debian wiki page for validating checksums for a debian iso is "download the keyring" and it gives you no indication how to do that
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15:17<john>PGP in general should be easier to use. The average user does not want to mess with the command-line.
15:17<sney>pki in general
15:17<ryouma>annadane: i figure that stuff will improve over time. but the booting experience is i think really critical and particularly pernicious in its complexity-induced pitfalls. if the complexity were needed for the task, that's not a problem. but the complexity is actually deliberately inserted there to be friendly to newcomers (by covering most cases), but actually introduces bugs.
15:17<Walex>ryouma: many "mortal users" think that system integration should be easy and approachable, without considering history. Look at '/etc/': it is a giant mess full of traps. Because all the application/daemon writers did whatever they thought would make their job easier, and then it takes a system integration engineer to know the history and reverse engineer everything.
15:17<ryouma>Walex: i think you don't know what i think
15:18<ryouma>or what i am saying
15:18<Walex>annadane: ""download the keyring" and it gives you no indication how to do that": that is explained somewhere else. You cannot explain every detail on every page.
15:18<ryouma>but yeah, there is a great deal of "do the first thing that works"
15:19<john>"You cannot explain every detail on every page" You can't with that attitude.
15:19<annadane>i respectfully disagree and i'm not getting into discussions like that because they don't lead anywhere
15:19<ryouma>(but that's not relevant to my point about booting)
15:19<Walex>annadane: more generallu, there is no chance of writing "a dozen easy steps to do a brain transplant" guide.
15:19<ryouma>annadane: i hear you. verifying is a solvable documentation problem. :)
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15:20<annadane>i mean, validating an image is a pretty important thing and if it's unclear in the first place it's going to turn new users off
15:20<ryouma>many new users don'
15:20<ryouma>many new users don't care that much, but having a great page for it would show them taht it'
15:20<ryouma>s not bad
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15:20<Walex>annadane: and as to PGP, using *any* security critical thingie is incredibly hard, because there are so many pitfalls, and there is no such thing as a guide that says "how to use PGP securely without understanding it in detail in 6 simple steps"
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15:20<annadane>i agree in the case of like, man pages, where it's obviously intended for a specific audience and you can't "explain every detail on every page"
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15:21<annadane>well, i didn't bring up pgp
15:21<annadane>well, ryouma, new users don't care because they're not used to the concept in the first place
15:21<annadane>if you introduce them to it they might start caring and become better users for it
15:22<annadane>it would get rid of "i installed linux and it's broken. this sucks, i'm going back to windows"
15:22<ryouma>annadane: exactly!
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15:24<Walex>annadane: MS-Windows is the same or worse in that respect. Configuring and modifying MS-Windows in much harder than for GNU/Linux, many more complications, traps, obscure interactions...
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15:24<annadane>but, anyway, abstruse documentation doesn't help matters
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15:24<Walex>most people MS-Windows "easier" than GNU/Linux only because it comes pre-installed and pre-configured.
15:24<amacater>Folk, can some of this be moved to -offtopic?
15:24<annadane>"there are limitations in certain cases" is a fundamentally different thing to "we shouldn't try in the first place"
15:25<annadane>amacater, yeah
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15:35<suntzu_>I like debian, because you dont ahve a call-center 24/7 for problems
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15:35<suntzu_>you have the forums, the irc, the documentation
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15:35<suntzu_>which is much better than a call center with unskilled staff for answering standard questions
15:36*annadane is most decidedly unskilled staff
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15:36<jelly>suntzu_: did you try turning it off and on again?
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15:41<lindi->suntzu_: there surely are such call-centers but they are for business users of course
15:42<annadane>using red hat seems a bit silly
15:42<annadane>i'm sure people have their reasons
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15:44<lindi->I actually purchased Red Had subscription this year to be able to help a client better
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15:46<annadane>i mean what i said is actually pretty ignorant
15:47<LunaSela>It is not a bad idea to at least know other distributions. I tried zillions of distributions, but stayed at Debian at last
15:47<lindi->(Red Had knowledge base answers are only available to paid subscribers)
15:47<annadane>making money off FOSS is not bad at all and it's certainly useful if you have clients
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16:14<keinek>Hi. Any news about the new stable version planned for today?
16:16<LunaSela>CD images are still being tested afaik
16:16<keinek>thanks LunaSela
16:16<amacater> should have news
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16:17<keinek>Should you wait a few hours before downloading?
16:17<annadane>huh. TIL of micronews
16:17<keinek>I should wait a few hours before downloading?
16:17<keinek>thanks amacater.
16:17<amacater>You should be able to download almost immediately - bear in mind that the CD images will be done and then the final sync to mirrors will be done
16:18<amacater>It may all be ready by 23:59 UTC :)
16:18<LunaSela>keinek: when it is released, you can start downloading. I suppose the Dabian team did a good job again
16:18<amacater>Still doing a good job ... :)
16:18<keinek>I am proud of the great work they are doing.
16:19<dalk>use torrents for downloading and seeding as much as you can because the Debian servers are hit hard the first few days, the demand in BIG...
16:19<Mellnik>i hope the internet is prepared
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16:20<LunaSela>Yeah, Debian people are cool. If I had more spare time I would help too, but with my numerous hobbys, I am only a consumer :)
16:21<keinek>I am a teacher and my students are looking forward to the new version.
16:21<SeymourSkinner>I went with RC4 and I've been updating with kiddo so when it goes live I should be able to update in minutes without clogging mirrors 😁
16:21<ravenlx>@LunaSela: Me too but if you go here: there's other things you can do. I'm in a couple mailing lists including debian-user and try to help there when I can.
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16:22<SeymourSkinner>With jigdo rather
16:22<ravenlx>I think they are getting closer to releasing the images.
16:22<dalk>jigdo is great!
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16:23<ravenlx>I tried jigdo. Because I don't know how best to use it I ended up hating it. :-/ Just spewed a bunch of nonsense on the screen and wasn't sure what was getting downloaded and what wasn't. I also rather have an ISO so I can make virtual machines to test with.
16:23<jmw>bandwidth graph when jessie was released (april spike):
16:23<ravenlx>I guess jigdo isn't for everyone.
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16:24<annadane>good on you for using debian with your students :)
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16:25<maurom>keinek, in which subject do you use/recommend Debian?
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16:25<ravenlx>Looks like the are testing images. I'm waiting so very patiently for Stretch to drop! :)
16:25<annadane>i love this community
16:25<maurom>we use it here in my University in one of the networking courses
16:26<amacater>It's on it's way :) Live images are being built as we type
16:26<maurom>and it is also the backend of lots of services (internal and external)
16:27<maurom>and it has been so for > 15 years
16:27<SeymourSkinner> Actually it will be interesting to see how many files jigdo updates from an rc5 image
16:27<keinek>I teach graphic design with GIMP, audio editing with audacity, programming with GAMBAS.
16:28-!-julianwi [] has joined #debian
16:28-!-julianwi is "Julian Winkler" on #debian
16:28<SeymourSkinner>I use gimp to edit raw files I am a photography buff
16:28<SeymourSkinner>And to clean up film scans
16:28<keinek>I teach them something for which they do not have to pay and they can be free in the future.
16:28<amacater>Not much will have changed between a couple of days ago and today except the installer symlinks to point to the right version, the debian installer documentation and release notes
16:28<maurom>keinek, great work!
16:29<SeymourSkinner>And for a long time I stuck with ubuntu but with unity being dropped I felt like coming back to Debian was a good choice
16:30<keinek>My native language is Spanish, I made some videos that I share for my students on youtube, there are 28 classes that were created a few years ago, also with debian.
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16:30<keinek>SeymourSkinner: me too
16:30<maurom>keinek, HA! ambos hablamos español (ARG en mi caso)
16:31-!-gb00s [uid99359@2604:8300:100:200b:6667:4:1:841f] has joined #debian
16:31-!-gb00s is "gb00s" on #debian-next #debian #fish
16:31<keinek>The problem with debian is that over time the applications in its stable version become very old. But it's the price we pay for stability.
16:31<amacater>Existe tambien debian-es para nosotros todos
16:31<keinek>Maurom: mee too (ARg too)
16:31<dpkg>Este canal es de soporte técnico en Inglés para Debian. Si prefiere que el soporte sea en Español, puede ingresar en #debian-es tecleando /join #debian-es en la línea de chat.
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16:33<maurom>amacater, truly
16:33<maurom>I know, I know, dear dpkg
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16:34-!-swoga is "Peter" on #debian
16:34<keinek>Nobody answered me in debian-es
16:34<keinek>So google translator is my best friend.
16:34<sney>some channels are more active at different times, and/or take a while to reply
16:34<ravenlx>dpkg told me a couple hours ago: "Hold on, let me get some tarot cards... ok, stretch should be out by Easter." LOL!
16:34<dpkg>You are person #1 to send an unparseable request, ravenlx
16:35<ravenlx>I hope they don't mean NEXT Easter! LOL!
16:35<sney>this channel is usually much less active than it is today.
16:35<Omochao>everyone is excited for release!
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16:35<dpkg>Debian 9 "Stretch" is planned for release on 2017-06-17. There's still bugs that you can help fix or help migrate from sid to stretch. Ask me about <stretch freeze>, <how-can-i-help>
16:35<amacater>No, it's boring, we do this every couple of years .... meh :)
16:36-!-thoreau [~thoreau@2804:14c:2b:87f8:8556:b9d9:a3a:4b71] has quit [Quit: thoreau]
16:36<annadane>i'd be excited but i'm already on testing :P
16:36<Omochao>it's only my second major release since I started using Debian :P
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16:36<annadane>can't stand how outdated stable is
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16:37<amacater>Outdated is variable - if it takes two years to produce a stable release and it's supported for two or three, yes - but when you _want_ stability longer than 9 months, a year - it works well.
16:38<sney>be glad you weren't around for some older versions, the 2 year cycle is a relatively new thing
16:38<annadane>i suffer from shiny new stuff syndrome
16:38<amacater>Testing isn't guaranteed to work every day - when there are big transitions, it could break for a couple of weeks ... and you need a little more patience and understanding to deal with it
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16:39<dtw>Two-year cycle is great for me and I barely changes in the software I use.
16:39<amacater>... look back at the issues surrounding KDE version 3 -> version 4
16:39<lysander666>two years is pretty good imo
16:39<lysander666>esp for productivity
16:39<ryouma>if backports were super well supported, i think stable would be awesome
16:39<lysander666>and if you want a system that works today as well as it did yesterday
16:40<maurom>amacater, uffff, upgrading Kmail from KDE 3 to KDE 4 was really painful
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16:40-!-josgalo is "Jose G. López" on #debian
16:40<keithpeter>Stretch has inkscape 0.92 so much faster screen update. Good for graphic design students...
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16:40-!-qxt is "realname" on #debian
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16:40-!-SeymourSkinner is "Chris" on #debian-cd #debian
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16:41<ravenlx>SolydXK is a Debian Testing based distro (SolydX w/ XFCE and SolydK w/ KDE). I used to use those but switched to pure Debian awhile back.
16:41<qxt>Any word on stretch?
16:42<amacater>Still on it's way - testing live CD images now :)
16:42<ravenlx>Will go check #debian-cd and #debian-release. hold on...
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16:42-!-bolt is "-" on #awesome #virt #debian-next #debian #sd #oftc #qemu #suckless
16:42<ravenlx>Nevermind. amacater beat me to it. :)
16:43<annadane>the release has been... stretched out...
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16:45<qxt>fair enough. Technically that could release on Hawaiian tz if want. AFAIK they did not specify.
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16:46<ryouma>i'm sure we and they would prefer to ship tomorrow if it means more stability
16:47<annadane>it's kind of a double edged sword, on the one hand using testing means less absolute reliability, on the other hand you get to improve the product by reporting bugs
16:47<qxt>server has been up since the last release with only 4 reboots. Have a feeling it will live a day longer =)
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16:52<lysander666>I don't mind, I won't be upgrading tonight anyway. shipping tomorrow is fine, I'm just grateful for the OS in general
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16:54<keithpeter>I've got Stretch RC4 DVD isos. Is this jigdo howto still valid for updating those to release?
16:54<ryouma>me too
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16:56<annadane>i guess i never really looked into backports all that much
16:56<annadane>i'd probably be on stable if i spent a little more effort on it
16:56<ryouma>annadane: i don't need a shiny new grep, but a shiny new deluge could be useful when i go to #deluge and ask a question and they point and laugh at the old version number. testing is unacceptably risky for me atm, but in the past i have done that and reported bugs etc. for me the best would be stable + a really good stable backports repo that is updated, even during the freeze when people's attention is drawn else
16:57<annadane>i guess if i'd volunteer in an area it'd be backports
16:57<annadane>unfortunately my coding knowledge is non existent so it will have to wait a while
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16:58-!-alcortes is "Alberto" on #debian #releasingstretch
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16:58<SeymourSkinner>Keith should be
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16:58-!-mzf is "realname" on #virt #debian #debian-cloud #debian-openstack
16:59<keithpeter>will give it a try tomorrow.
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17:01<qxt>I actually kicked back with a joint while waiting. Not a good idea... tick........ tock ........
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17:02<ryouma>annadane: it's more building than coding iiuc
17:02<ravenlx>I just bought a new fidget spinner (my first) today and let me tell you, while I'm waiting, I'm going to wear out that damn thing yet! ROTFL!
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17:03<annadane>everyone breathe, relax, go outside for a while
17:03<annadane>pet your dog, call your loved ones, it will release soon enough
17:04-!-flawule [~flawule@2a00:b060:103:0:a819:956d:57eb:51c9] has joined #debian
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17:04-!-bony is "Bhuvan Krishna,,," on @#swecha #debian-mentors @#balaswecha #debian @#eswecha #freedombox
17:05<lysander666>I'm off to watch Vikings :p
17:05<qxt>ravenlx hear using one of those things makes you a racist google "fidget spinner racist"
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17:06<qxt>ravenlx, I lol'd. Right up there with pizza gate.
17:06<ravenlx>@qxt: Ah poo. They are everywhere!
17:06<qxt>ravenlx, evil evil racists =P
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17:09<ravenlx>I think they said they are a bit over half done, including live images. So we're getting there!
17:10-!-fLoo [~fLoo@2001:41d0:a:37dd::201] has joined #debian
17:10-!-fLoo is "Florian Strankowski" on #debian
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17:11<fLoo>Just wanted to say hello from our DebLaunch Party at Hamburg/Germany
17:11*fLoo *waves*
17:11*sney waves
17:12<keithpeter>Big wave from UK
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17:13<qxt>fLoo, might have to have a new party tomorrow (in 45mi)
17:13<qxt>but cheers
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17:16<fLoo>qxt: we're going hard and nothing will stop us @ 00:00 ;-)
17:16<qxt>fLoo, just hope you left your laptops at home xD
17:16<fLoo>actually we did not haha
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17:17-!-SeymourSkinner is "Chris" on #debian-cd #debian
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17:18*Arcade goes and prints the debian cover onto the discs ok ravenlx
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17:19<fLoo>seems like images are getting pushed at the moment
17:19<qxt>fLoo, was a BSD "party" where everybody had a Thinkpad with them... was a bit... well no girls, booze etc
17:19<fLoo>qxt: same here, nothing new
17:19<fLoo>girlfriend is partying with her mates, im fine with that :)
17:19<qxt>heh =)
17:20<fLoo>her drug is dancing, my drug is .. well .. you see where i'm at right now
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17:21<amacater>Stretch rc4 isos should update to rc5 - or if you can bear to wait, there will be install isos soon enough
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17:21<fLoo>oh no worry, im here just to party tonight
17:21<fLoo>no reinstalls will happen (as of my booze-level right now)
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17:22<amacater>Thanks for the hello, fLoo :)
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17:22<fLoo>appreciated ;)
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17:23<qxt>compiled a zillion debs of QEMU with OpenGL/VirGL spice support. Bet you anything the one tiny last thing they change on stretch will brake then all xD
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17:24<keithpeter>So RC4 -> Release OK after release or do I have to go RC4 -> RC5 -> Release? (and carry on partying those who are :-)
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17:24<sney>the "RC" numbers are just the installer versions, if the system is already installed then you can just upgrade via apt
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17:25<keithpeter>Thanks but it is the isos I want to upgrade to use on other machines.
17:25<ravenlx>I'm planning full wipe/reinstall here. I think my machines "need" it.
17:25<fLoo>ravenlx: so do i
17:25<keithpeter>I'll play with it when release happens
17:26<fLoo>i'll have to update 50+ machines (vms)
17:26<ravenlx>Looking like it might be in another 3 hours or so, from the sound of things.
17:26<amacater>If you want the .iso to match - there were changes between RC4 and RC5, some fixes, a new kernel version but I think you could try to use jidgo to update them. It's a lot easier for me to just download a netinst, point it at the nearest mirror and have done with it
17:26<ravenlx>Going to go snooze for awhile. Need to finish my own scripts!
17:26<amacater>But I do live in an area with high internet bandwidth.
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17:26*ravenlx is away: Snooozzzzin'
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17:26<user01>are we supposed to take photos of our release party and post them somewhere?
17:27<fLoo>used to be like that
17:27<amacater>If you have to update 50+ machines, build a small mirror and keep stuff close to hand
17:27<fLoo>atleast a few years ago we did that
17:27<fLoo>but as we get older, we hesitate to post pictures of us ;-)
17:27<chnoxis>fLoo : what do you on a release-party? drinking beer on the laptops? ;) i never was on a debian-release-party yet. all to far from my hometown
17:27<maurom>keithpeter, if you have the RC4 ISOs, when Stretch is released, you can download the .jigdo files for DVDs 1-N
17:28<fLoo>chnoxis: drinking, watching hackers (running in the background), having some conversations
17:28<fLoo>like having a good day with your friends, without girls
17:28<maurom>keithpeter, then mount your old ISOs (loop) to any directory and instruct jigdo to browse for packages there
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17:29<chnoxis>lol cool :) just like in a hackerspace ;)
17:29<fLoo>exactly, but im not in our hackerspace right now
17:29<fLoo>we keep it private ;-)
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17:29-!-Xylon_laptop is "Joseph Graham" on #debian #debian-offtopic
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17:29<amacater>... tell people how it was with Debian 1.1 when you had to download to floppy disks ...
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17:30<maurom>keithpeter, then you won't have to download the full dvds, but only the packages which have changed since rc4
17:30<keithpeter>So download .jigdo file for DVD1, then update RC4 DVD1 &c in one go. As amacanter says possibly a lot of changed packages for DVD1 but not so much for DVD2 I'm guessing. Internet *should* be good here 1 mile from the centre of Birmingham but then adsl/BT
17:30<amacater>Then someone asks why there was never a Debian 1.0 ...
17:30<fLoo>amacater: im not _that_ old, started with debian 2.0 here
17:30<maurom>keithpeter, exactly
17:31<fLoo>it really got me as of debian 3.0
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17:31<fLoo>then i was kinda addicated to all that stuff
17:31<maurom>you can even instruct jigdo to download new pkgs from your nearest mirror
17:31<SeymourSkinner>I can remember seeing Debian 2.0 cds for 5 dollars at the computer store in the 90s....
17:31<maurom>I do that every time a new rc or point release is updated
17:31-!-Mike is now known as Guest2638
17:31<amacater>keithpeter: Most people live with DVD1 and not many bother with DVD2 and DVD3 - so yes, jigdo should update them for you
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17:32<fLoo>SeymourSkinner: we used to have 64 kbit isdn-lines back in 1998? so we copied the cds in school
17:32<maurom>in a way it is similar to ubuntu's zsync
17:32<fLoo>we had 128 kbit dual-isdn in school ;)
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17:33<amacater>keithpeter: if you're in Birmingham UK, you should be fine - not everyone has the luxury of bandwidth
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17:33<keithpeter>I ran 30 PCs off a 64bit leased line in early 90s. Some days the local connection is about as fast :-) Thanks all
17:33<amacater>fLoo - I had a phone modem and a real teleprinter as my first school computer system :)
17:34<anjum>Started with Debian 7... so pretty recent.
17:34<fLoo>amacater: holy cow, my first contact to pcs was a 286 from my dad (16 mhz in "turbo"-mode) and BTX (telescreen text via modem)
17:35<fLoo>never had the fun with accoustic-copplers
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17:36<tensorpudding>I started with Debian sarge. That was 4.something I think.
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17:36<amacater>Hong Kong 8086 clone in 1985 was my first personal computer ... 2.4k modem in 1994 ...
17:36<chnoxis>my first debian was woody or sarge. i don't know is to long time ago. now i tryed linux again with debian jessie :-)
17:36<fLoo>tensorpudding: sarge was 3.1
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17:36-!-SeymourSkinner is "Chris" on #debian-cd #debian
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17:36<tensorpudding>fLoo: Ah, I was thinking of etch. I did use sarge first but it wasn't for very long.
17:37<EmleyMoor>I go back as far as slink!
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17:37<tensorpudding>I tried woody but it wouldn't boot
17:37<fLoo>EmleyMoor: so you're most likely my age
17:37<annadane>wonder if anyone actually buys the full set of dvd's
17:37<fLoo>EmleyMoor: ~ 32 ?
17:37<annadane>as opposed to just installing the software they need afterwards
17:37<SeymourSkinner>Do they even sell dvds anymore?
17:38<annadane>do they? idk
17:38<fLoo>SeymourSkinner: Our main stores do (like the big retails ones and discounters)
17:38-!-Mellnik [] has quit [Quit: Page closed]
17:38<fLoo>But even an USB-Stick is cheaper nowadays
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17:39<SeymourSkinner>I just used dd to make a USB stick most of the time
17:39<tensorpudding>Big box stores still sell games on discs don't they?
17:39<fLoo>they do :)
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17:39<tensorpudding>I suppose more people buy games on Steam.
17:39<fLoo>the youngsters nowadays, yea for sure
17:39<tensorpudding>I know OSX isn't offered on discs anymore. I think Windows still is.
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17:40<fLoo>i buy games via ESD too, just because i dont have to leave and drive to destination X and back
17:40<fLoo>same goes for software
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17:42<keithpeter>Debian is just about the only distro where you can install the OS and a pretty good range of software (desktop use) from DVDs offline. Hope they carry on doing that for the next few releases...
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17:43<amacater>It's a regular question - do I have to download all the CDs - so some people must think so, even now when you only need the first installer disk. Actually, you can use jigdo to put a blueray disk on a USB stick - that works really well
17:43<amacater>- it's just another iso image
17:44<jelly>jigdo is really a PITA for the uninitiated
17:44<fLoo> is a nice idea, but instead of posting so many sidenotes, it would be better to post progress updates only
17:44<lindi->amacater: if you only use CD1 you can get somewhat broken installation
17:44<fLoo>imho :)
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17:44<amacater>I did that for the release of wheezy to test
17:44<keithpeter>The bluray onto USB sounds fun. Might try that one.
17:44<amacater>DVD1 is usually OK - but if you have bandwidth a netinst is good.
17:44<jmw>fLoo: you assume there is progress to post. cd building takes many hours
17:45<jmw>that's what the filler is for
17:45*jelly had to jigdo a bluray image for jessie when someone complained of no seeds and/or no torrents
17:45<lindi->amacater: in squeeze for example the "shutdown" menu option was not shown at all if you installed from CD1 without network:
17:45<amacater>Download the template files, point to your local mirror, produce 15G or so image - dd slowly to a USB stick - it takes about an hour :)
17:46<fLoo>jmw does it? i dont know about the resources of the CD-Team but we build isos pretty fast over here (cluster, 12 dual xeon boxes)
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17:47<fLoo>okay i see, seems they dont have many resources: "The CD building machine is all the way up to load average 9"
17:48<annadane>jigdo is definitely a bit weird
17:48<annadane>would advise against it for newcomers
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17:48<jelly>except if you really want that BD image, it's the _only_ way to create it
17:49<tensorpudding>How big is the BD image?
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17:49<keithpeter>amacanter said the bluray was about 15Gb
17:49<jelly>fLoo: just remember load average 9.0 is "machine cpus at 75% if it has 12 cores"
17:49<amacater>I think that'sBD1 :)
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17:50<fLoo>jelly: ik, thanks for the headsup though ;)
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17:50<Serbitar>jelly: not necessraly, it could just mean 9 threads are waiting for disk and the cpu is going ~nothing
17:50<tensorpudding>Much bigger than a DVD image but I thought BD discs could handle more data.
17:50<jelly>Serbitar: ik, but cba to explain loadavg
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17:51<jelly>could use a 32GB or 64GB usb stick image!
17:51<amacater>I can't remember what size Blu-Ray double density is ... it might be 32G - which is a lot in one piece of very expensive writeable optical medium but nothing in a USB stick these days
17:52<amacater>Yes :)
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17:52<Serbitar>a machine at work last week was at loadavg 8000 because a wonderful user decided to hammer lots of files from lots of threads
17:52<jelly>that's nice
17:52<blast007>"25 GB (single-layer), 50 GB (dual-layer), 100/128 GB (BDXL)"
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17:54<tensorpudding>They have an XL?
17:54<tensorpudding>First I heard.
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17:56<jelly>a bootable LTO5 image could fit the whole mirror, but who boots from tape these days
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17:56<Serbitar>oh the pain
17:56<dalk>jelly: lol!
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18:03<jmw>also we're doing 10 arches, multiarch, live, source...
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18:05<annadane>arch linux? ;)
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18:10<fLoo>hey horst
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18:11<Nemoder>Is the average Debian release more or less frequent than once in a blue moon?
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18:11<annadane>2 years afaik?
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18:11<annadane>give or take
18:11<Horstexplorer>Does one of u know when the Debian 9 installers get releases?
18:11<amacater>Depends - eight or nine point releases per two years - that's one every three months
18:11<amacater>Major releases once every two years
18:12<nicolas17>Horstexplorer: today
18:12<annadane>today, about midnight UTC
18:12<amacater>Horstexplorer - soon - testing CDs now
18:12<Nemoder>and a blue moon is once every 2.5 years, so that's pretty good then :)
18:13<Horstexplorer>Ah thank u. :) Cant wait :D
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18:13<fLoo>Horstexplorer: today
18:14<fLoo>i'm late :<
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18:14<fLoo>amacater: a better answer would be "when its done"
18:14<Horstexplorer>So its on sunday :)
18:14<amacater>Some issues with live CD booting :( Various folk are checking
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18:14<fLoo>Horstexplorer: depends on timezone
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18:15<fLoo>not everyone's livin in germany dude :P
18:15<Horstexplorer>UTC +1
18:15<amacater>fLoo: No, only the lucky ones
18:16<chnoxis>today is sunday in my timezone ;) debian 9 ist delayed :P
18:16<fLoo>Horstexplorer: its still 3pm in vancouver :P
18:16<annadane>i'm just excited for the 300 updates i'm installing tomorrow when testing becomes buster
18:17<nicolas17>annadane: same, I updated to testing a few months ago
18:17<nicolas17>actually... looks like my sources.list points at stretch, I should change that to testing
18:17<amacater>annadane: Yup, that's exactly the reason you don't put "stable" in your /etc/apt/sources.list - once every couple of years, all hell breaks loose :)
18:18<amacater>If you want testing, point it to buster and do an apt-get update ; apt-get dist-upgrade when that's there
18:18<fLoo>amacater: and you can even see that in various netmons
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18:18<Horstexplorer>Just need to get my servers running until monday. Hopefully this will work.
18:18<fLoo>so many sysadmins are dumb and put stable in it ;)
18:18<fLoo>so like "oh there are updates, lets go for it"
18:19<nicolas17>amacater: is it a bad idea to point sources.list to "testing"?
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18:19<fLoo>nicolas17: its a good idea to have a static pointer
18:19<fLoo>stable/testing are just symlinks
18:19<amacater>Maybe - if you want to point to a release, point to it by name - that's the name it carries from testing -> stable -> oldstable
18:20<annadane>i'm keeping mine as "testing"
18:20<dalk>nicolas17: no if you know what you are doing and don't forget its there...
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18:20<amacater>We only have release names because someone screwed up and released Debian 1.0
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18:20<annadane>it becomes irrelevant with freeze anyway
18:20<annadane>just don't forget it's there, as said
18:21<Horstexplorer>Did someone know if php5 or php7 ist in the PHP package of debian9?
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18:21<dalk>amacater: tell us more about it!
18:21<ravenlx>I usually just point to say "jessie" (for my current systems) and next reinstall it'll be "stretch". But then again, I reinstall from fresh (I do frequent data backups so no biggie) when there's a new major version.
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18:21<ravenlx>@Horstexplorer: PHP 7.
18:21<fLoo>Horstexplorer: 7
18:21<fLoo>actually its 7.0
18:22<ravenlx>Remember that MariaDB replaced MySQL in Debian 9 now.
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18:23<amacater>Both are available, I think
18:23<ravenlx>And, when installing, you need to 'sudo mysql_secure_installation' because it won't automatically set up your root password for the database.
18:23<ravenlx>That bit caused me a bit of a snafu when I went to install phpmyadmin and do some stuff like I normally do.
18:24<cucusapa>amacater: AFAIK only mariadb-10.1 and php7.0 are available on stretch
18:24<jmw>no mysql in stretch
18:24<jmw>it's a transitional package to maria
18:24<fLoo>ravenlx: noone uses phpmyadmin nowadays :P
18:24<ravenlx>I should say AFTER installing do the mysql_secure_installation.
18:24<cucusapa>default-mysql-server s the package
18:24<ravenlx>@fLoo: what do they use?
18:24<amacater>Way back in the day, Walnut Creek CD-ROM took a pre-release of Debian and packaged it as Debian 1.0 - it wasn't ready and was buggy so the official release had to be 1.1
18:25<fLoo>ravenlx: usually you use something like Navicat
18:25<fLoo>+ mysql over ssh
18:25<nicolas17> hrm this tweet says "Debian jessie now been renamed to oldstable!" but this wasn't announced on mailing lists and's Release files haven't changed yet
18:25<ravenlx>@fLoo: I don't do ssh on my laptops.
18:25<jmw>nicolas17: because we haven't finished yet
18:26<jmw>it's only renamed in the primary archive and database
18:26<amacater>It's still moving through as jmw says :)
18:26<amacater>Not final until cds are released and final pulse to mirrors
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18:28<Horstexplorer>MSG * hello
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18:55<DrKnuth>There are many that we are waiting like this:
18:56<nicolas17><Sledge> we're taking about an hour per arch, about 3 hours to go I think
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18:58<jmw>that is not the end though, just cds
18:58<jmw>bit longer before it's on mirrors
18:58<lysander666>tomorrow morning most likely
18:58<fLoo>nicolas17: when did he write that ?
18:58<jmw>just now
18:58<fLoo>i see
18:58<nicolas17>but yeah that's just for CDs
18:59<TeddyH>jmw: Where?
18:59<nicolas17>it does mean we'll probably not have any significant news before those 3 hours though
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19:01<lysander666>I'm just going to hang out
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19:02<lysander666>nothing expected before tomorrow
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19:07<jmw>likely next interesting thing will be after 0600UTC
19:07<habs>hi, I accidentally added deb-src *and* deb- lines for sid in my (stretch) sources.list for a day, when I only meant to add deb-src lines. I forget which packages I could have installed since then. How can I un-franken-debian my install?
19:07<habs>i.e. is there a command I can use that would print out all packages installed from sid?
19:08<Serbitar>habs: you could look at the apt.log and reinstall eveythign installed since you enabled sid
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19:15<stderr>Has anyone seen the factoid for "release"? I think dpkg knows something we don't...
19:15<dpkg>Debian 9 "Stretch" was released on 2017-06-17. It is now considered "stable". Ask me about <install debian>, <jessie->stretch> to upgrade from Debian 8 "Jessie" See or <release history> for the latest (and historical) releases. For updates from the Debian Release Team, see
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19:15<nicolas17>heh, someone updated it too soon :P
19:15<mju>habs: If you use aptitude, you could try aptitude search ~Aunstable
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19:16<nicolas17>mju: that doesn't work if unstable is still in my sources, right?
19:17<jmw>dpkg: you lie
19:17<dpkg>I resemble that remark!
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19:18<nicolas17>got it
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19:18<nicolas17>that prints pretty much every package because most packages have the same version in testing and unstable right now
19:19<mju>Ah, sorry, yes. I did not dare to put unstable in my sources and install a packe to test it. :-)
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19:20<nicolas17>I'm not sure if I have any package that is present in both testing and unstable and where I have the unstable version installed
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19:20<mju>So, aptitude search ~Aunstable~i should work, then.
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19:20<mju>I am guessing again, though.
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19:21<nicolas17>mju: no, because if I have foo 1.0-1 installed, and both testing and unstable have 1.0-1 atm, it will be printed by that command
19:21<nicolas17>"I have the testing version" and "I have the unstable version" are both true :)
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19:21<nicolas17>seems like I would need !~Atesting
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19:26<ravenlx>I want to test a script I made which downloads and installs packages. Is it safe to dist-upgrade in an RC4 (in a virtual machine)?
19:27<mju>nicolas17: yes, it seems you are right. Personally I would use aptitude interactively and e.g use 'l' to limit the display and walk through the packages manually.
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19:54<Tomasina>FUCK NIGGERS JOIN quicktalkeh676te.onion/6697: mattcen bilbo x mait iwamatsu zerkalo miklcct arlen sabbie[m] woddf2 jalcine pindy Nevolution_ COREILLY[m] brandon andres tobiwankenobi[m] RichiH maurom twisted` scrdcow zeta grillonBNC MeanderingCode bony jrib dooglus thunderrd Hobbyboy lpalgarvio[m] diegov[m] ptyr shunzero amdgoon Thraul[zZz] gluon kdlv kmd unixnut Madatnek holmgren spacebug^ pinaraf satbyy berto jumbers DrKnuth UNIcodeX_ root[m] ryouma
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19:54<Ellette>FUCK NIGGERS JOIN quicktalkeh676te.onion/6697: quux_ csnxs adi Zachary_DuBois CuteMeOwnThroat mots Nik05 cdesai jrms Gabba[m] kingsley_ nonsch jipege1 jcll zem_ nicoulaj orel CyberJacob sjefen6 jef kmd mormon420 mzf frostyfrog libregeekingkid[m] goofybud16[m] kali_ aboudreault isithran captnfab msantana Spydar007 TotallyNotKim deltron dzragon lindi- zeromind mait afx237 sauron_ EmleyMoor rbalint falstro likcoras pcdummy verm1n dxld Airwave amorel venturahi
19:54<Rubina>FUCK NIGGERS JOIN quicktalkeh676te.onion/6697: the-dude pwnintended gnusosa blurr jhonatanp_ resmo adhawkins illwieckz FourDollars bruce_549 subsystem mtift debhelper mzf shunzero akosiaris Hydroxide judd Brando753 ptyr pranith ed nullsig jvoorhis Artox j3roen fiddlerwoaroof dmh zapat3ro[m] joona gluon clopez Tempesta YuGiOhJCJ Lirion dbristow thierry Kuroko sotiri mnuhmnuh abpostelnicu cheapie yang voltagex melvin MatrixTraveler[m] dooglus debchange jfin Mil
19:54<Ellette>FUCK NIGGERS JOIN quicktalkeh676te.onion/6697: ptyr bathsubeki in1t3r_ FloodServ ravenlx R DonRichie grrrrrr yuicat Seeder sarnold XeryusTC guardian ed larjona brians__ ikonia aguslr Doctor_Pi pwnintended FLD tetrapovicc n-st hascable voidhawk CuZnDragon k-man bony zeromind JanC_ pdostal habs kingsley_ chaky Walex markus-k anto disposable julianwi jcll rohan posterdati milosz[m] muep ansgar Rizzer sunilmohan illwieckz derfel__ btaylor
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19:54<DennisTheTiger>Aaaaaaaaand another flood.
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19:54-!-mode/#debian [+R] by dwfreed
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19:54<tacocat>thanks dwfreed
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19:55<thoreau>Those bans are ablazin'!
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19:55<DennisTheTiger>!beer dwfreed
19:55*dpkg pulls out an exquisite Spaten Optimator for dwfreed
19:55<SCHAPiE>+R is always good
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19:55<rosaage>What does +R do?
19:55<dwfreed>prevents unverified users from joining the channel
19:55<tacocat>only registered users can join
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19:56<DennisTheTiger>And with that, then, once the spambot catches up, they're kinda stuck.
19:56<ravenlx>How do I get registered? I got on today and been setting here all nice like. :)
19:56<SCHAPiE>ravenlx: /msg nickserv help
19:56<Champers>I'm a registered user but have forgotten the e-mail address & pass I used :s
19:56-!-mode/#debian [-R] by dwfreed
19:56<nicolas17>I'm a registered user but I never login :P
19:57<ravenlx>@SCHAPiE: Thanks.
19:57<DennisTheTiger>ravenlx: Talk to user nickserv - start with 'msg nickserv help
19:57<DennisTheTiger>Erm, '/msg nickserv help'
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19:58<ravenlx>HELP REGISTER
19:59<ravenlx>OOps. ::blush:: I can't figure out how to register.
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19:59<stderr>ravenlx: /msg nickserv help register
19:59<stderr>Remember the "/msg nickserv"-part...
19:59<ravenlx>@stderr: Thanks. I got it just before you posted. :)
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20:03<arlen>after you've registered you'll need to verify at
20:04<ravenlx>Got it. Registered and verified! Thank you everyone for the help. I'm using XChat so now do I have to set it up in this to log in when I connect?
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20:04<Serbitar>best soltion imo is to set up the ssl certificate auth
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20:06<ravenlx>@Serbitar: I wouldn't even *begin* to know how to do that. I've never registered before. Thanks for the link. Will look at that but I really REALLY need to do some work in a VM tonight. Can I forgo that part until another time?
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20:06<Serbitar>yeah if you can remember the password you cna just register manually next reconnet
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20:08<ravenlx>@Serbitar: Thank you. I'll have to do that. I'm going to just idle and watch for awhile in between testing an install script I am making. I want to sneak it in before they do more stuff tomorrow. This is for my own stuff to automatically install things I use. Hoping to finish tonight.
20:08<LeLutin>ravenlx: if I remember correctly with XChat you can configure in the server section your nickserv password so that the client will identify you every time you connect to irc
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20:10<ravenlx>@LeLutin: I couldn't find that configuration anywhere in the Server Section as there doesn't seem to be one in the Settings - Preferences.
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20:10<LeLutin>ravenlx: -- the last point says you can set up your password there. you can refer to the screenshot at the top of the "configuration" section for visual reference
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20:10<ravenlx>Aha! Thanks! :)
20:11<LeLutin>ravenlx: for this network you'd configure the "oftc" network instead of freenode
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20:12<chnoxis>ravenlx: go to the networklist --> choose the server --> show details --> there you can add the nickserv-password
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20:13<ravenlx>@LeLutin: I don't see anything referring to "oftc". Debian is pre-configured in it, it seems.
20:13<ravenlx>@chnoxis - XChat doesn't seem to have the menus shown that way.
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20:13<ravenlx>But I think I got the password set ok.
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20:14<Plushfish>i want 9.0 iso
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20:14<ravenlx>They are still working on it. They are probably not going to have anything of interest going on until around 06:00 UTC though, from what I hear.
20:15<chnoxis>hm i don't know. i currently use xcaht azure on macOS. with a german layout
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20:15<Plushfish>ravenlx: wuut, that's 18.06. at 08:00 AM here lol
20:15<ravenlx>@chnoxis: I'm using a PC with Debian Jessie and XChat in XFCE. So maybe menu stuff might be slightly different.
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20:16<ravenlx>@PlushFish: That would be around 7am where I am. Gives me time to go get a virtual machine updated, cloned and leaves me some time to work on my own script. So in a way I'm sorta glad. I'm running behind myself. But kinda was hoping for release today!
20:16<chnoxis>maybe. i use under linux the client hexchat
20:16<ravenlx>That's ok. As they say "It's ready when it's ready". :)
20:17<Plushfish>ravenlx: We update and maintain our systems in the night, have to wait another day :(
20:17<ravenlx>@chnoxis - Ah, that may be it. I'm not using hexchat. I'm using XChat. Might be different a little bit.
20:18<ravenlx>@Plushfish: Ugh. Well, I probably won't be updating for another day either. If my script crashes and burns (as they usually do on first run) I'll be chasing bugs until midnight and then not be up until probably after they release. LOL!
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20:19<ravenlx>(I meant upgrading, actually, not updating).
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20:19<Plushfish>ravenlx: That gives me time to plan and make a upgrade schedule for the serers
20:19<ravenlx>@Plushfish: Yeah, I'd think so.
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20:22<ravenlx>#debian-cd is going quiet now. #debian-release is showing signs of signing some live releases but some warnings about KDE (kernel problems with i915 video I guess not liking to start X or somesuch).
20:22<ravenlx>I'm guessing on the kernel probs thing though. But there apparently WILL be KDE warnings.
20:23<ravenlx>Going away now for a little while. I'm going to get to work on my script before I fall asleep myself. :)
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21:46<thoreau>"If any of the lines in your /etc/apt/sources.list refer to 'stable', you might get a surprise on your next upgrade! #releasingstretch"
21:46<thoreau>Did somebody test this?
21:47<nicoo>thoreau: What? The jessie -> stretch upgrade ?
21:47<thoreau>Yes, if Stretch is already listed under "stable".
21:47<sney>!stable sources.list
21:47<dpkg>Despite the fact previous installers, countless websites and /usr/share/doc/apt/examples/sources.list (prior to apt 0.9.6) will tell you to do this, do *not* use "stable" in your sources.list; use the release code name instead (e.g. "stretch"). Upgrading between releases has not been trivial for a decade; make sure you read the <release notes> and ask me about <jessie->stretch>, <jessie sources.list>.
21:48<sney>this has been a thing for a long time. even if the upgrade is actually fairly simple, it's not something that should happen without the user's knowledge and explicit permission
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22:14<DanielB>What this tweet means in #releasingstretch: "If any of the lines in your /etc/apt/sources.list refer to 'stable', you might get a surprise on your next upgrade!"? Not my case, although I'm curious :)
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22:14<somiaj>DanielB: stable, testing, etc are links that point to code names.
22:15<somiaj>so right after a release hits, things that use stable, testing, oldstable for their sources.list will point at a different release, and make everything want to upgrade.
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22:17<ryouma>the tweet should say a potentially unwanted surprise, not an easter egg haiku
22:18<DanielB>somiaj: Thanks for your answer. Yes, I think it was always like this. I suppose then it is referred that there could be an update to the next stable if one updates directly without remembering that detail (to habe used "stable" instead of "jessie"), right?.
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22:19<somiaj>DanielB: correct, stable use to point at jessie, it now points at stretch.
22:20<DanielB>*to have
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22:20<somiaj>DanielB: one should upgrade when they are ready, if you use stable in your sources.list it could be a surprise.
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22:21<amacater>As before in this chatroom tonight. If you point to a release by codname, it doesn't change. Debian 10 (Buster) has just been forked from Stretch. It is the next release, so it will be testing from here on in.
22:21<DanielB>Yes, it would be an "potentially unwanted surprise", as ryouma said :)
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22:22<amacater>If you point to "testing" - you will never get a released version. If you point to "buster", you will track it through testing phase -> stable -> oldstable - no change for ?? five years ??
22:22<ryouma>if a critical bug was posted to jessie a month ago, and might or might have applied to stretch also, would it have been ignored because jessie was old hat?
22:23<amacater>Otherwise, in two years time, if you point to "stable", the same thing happens - your buster gets upgraded to Buster + 1
22:24<amacater>If a bug was posted to Jessie and was critical, it would have been fixed in Stretch first and then in Jessie - that's how it works, fixes are tested in "testing" and pushed back to "whatever-backports"
22:24<somiaj>ryouma: many rc bugs are 'ignored' right before the release, other times it forces the package to removed from the release. The release team makes some judgment calls on this, otherwise the releases take way to long (I think the longest freeze was either close to or over na year)
22:24<pavi[m]>any latest news on when the installation images would be available?
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22:25<DanielB>Yes. That's why it seems wiser to point sources.list to <codename> to have a more secure control of when to upgrade to the next stable.
22:25<somiaj>ryouma: rc bugs that are found after the release, those may get fixed with point releases. But slowly over time there are more rc bugs found in the stable release.
22:25<amacater>S390x just being finalised now - give it a couple of hours
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22:26<amacater>If you've already got a machine running Stretch from a few days ago - apt-get update, apt-get dist-upgrade will bring it completely up to date. Mirror pushes are going on now - so give it a little while
22:26<ryouma>what if it was posted to jessie? would anybody read it and learn its lessons for stretch? (if it was posted to e.g. base)
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22:27<amacater>If it was posted to Jessie, it would be fixed in Jessie while Jessie has some level of support. Stretch might be further on in versions - but it would still get fixed wherever it occurred - look at the security release announcements. Fixed in stable here with version xxx, fixed in testing here with version yyy
22:28<amacater>The one place where it isn't explicitly"fixed" is unstable - because that gradually cascades down to testing anyway - that's how it works.
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22:30<amacater>So today, now: Testing == Buster == eventual Debian 10. Stable == Stretch == Debian 9.0 Oldstable == Jessie == Debian 8.8 Oldoldstable == Wheezy == Debian 7
22:31<danielsh>sounds right
22:32<ravenlx>Right now I have a script running in a VM version of Debian 9 downloading packages from stretch repos. I hope nothing breaks while they are getting things ready for release.
22:32<danielsh>If the script points to the codename ('stretch' rather than 'stable' or 'testing') then it's fine
22:33<amacater>Nope, you should be fine
22:33<ravenlx>Points to stretch and using
22:34<ravenlx>I think I knew better than to point to 'stable' or 'testing' :) I am doing this as a test so I can have something installing packages I want on my new systems when I got to reinstall my two laptops.
22:35<ravenlx>So far, just a couple small bugs and a feature I need to implement but overall, looks like I still know my bash scripting. Thankfully. We'll see what else crashes and burns tonight (if anything).
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22:37<ravenlx>The thing is, I'm running in VirtualBox and I could swear the sound works in it. But 'beep' isn't working from bash script in Konsole. Worked in the XFCE terminal though in my Jessie setup (on the host).
22:37<ravenlx>So I have to go look every so often if it is expecting something from me.
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22:39<tacocat>is oldoldstable kinda new? i don't remember seeing it before jessie was released and squeeze got that alias
22:40<ravenlx>oldoldstable will be Wheezy 7 I believe.
22:40<tacocat>yea i meant the alias itself tho
22:41<pavi[m]>Is wheezy still supported?
22:41<ravenlx>oldoldstable you mean? Will point to Wheezy 7. Is that what you mean?
22:41<pavi[m]>Especially the backports?
22:41<tacocat>ravenlx: no, never mind (was just curious) =]
22:41<ravenlx>I think Wheezy is EOL now. Not sure. Jessie will be supported a little while longer though, I believe
22:42<tacocat>wheezy is in LTS support until 31st May 2018
22:42<tacocat>re: backports it depends on the maintainer i guess
22:42<ravenlx>Ah, thank you for the correction. Good to know.
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22:44<laughingtiger>why my debian kde version uses swap while there's still free ram?
22:44<laughingtiger>it became very slow when using swap
22:44<ravenlx>There's a good question! I never even noticed that myself.
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22:45<laughingtiger>this happens after I reinstalled debian and put windows7 beside.
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22:45<ravenlx>running stretch on a VM right now using KDE and it's not touching the swap at all.
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22:46<ravenlx>Then again, all I'm running is a bash script that's downloading and installing packages. So probably doesn't need it.
22:46<ravenlx>what are you running right now?
22:47<laughingtiger>I m running firefox
22:47<laughingtiger>but sometimes when I m not running firefox, this happens 2
22:48<ravenlx>That might be it. Sometimes browsers take up some extra RAM or the system has to reserve it for video or something. I'm guessing, of course.
22:48<ravenlx>Do a 'top' at the terminal and see what is running. Maybe something requires the swap file to run? Though I've never head of anything that did, personally.
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22:49<juan_>hi, what is happening with stretch? I NEED IT!
22:50<laughingtiger>but I've been running debian as the only OS for the entire hd a very long time never did this happen, like I said it happened after I put windows on it.
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22:51<ravenlx>@juan_ They are still working on it. Looks like they are about to do some push or uploading images or something. Looks like they are getting pretty close to release. Look at #debian-release as they are talking about it there.
22:51<pavi[m]>juan_: you can do `apt-get dist-upgrade`, stretch is already released.
22:51<ravenlx>@laughintiger: Windows using some of the swap file? I don't know if that's possible. Strange, that.
22:51<laughingtiger>so it's obvious what's the cause isn't it ?damn poisonous windows!
22:52<ravenlx>LOL! Yup! Which is why I rather just run it in a Virtual Machine via VirtualBox.
22:52<ravenlx>Or run apps in PlayOnLinux if I need to.
22:53<laughingtiger>yeah, it's the right way to treat it
22:53<juan_>a lot a thanks :)
22:53<ravenlx>But the things I need to do, there's Linux equivalents for 99.99999% of it so I don't need Windows. Just some games I like is about all.
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22:54<ravenlx>@laughingtiger: Yeah - it's pretty well sandboxed too, when you think about it. For my VMs I create and keep base VMs and then just clone one if I need to do something. Then I can just delete the clone when done and keep the "base" untouched (except to do updates).
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22:54<laughingtiger>that's the same reason I wanted to play some stupid games now look at the cost I have to pay.
22:54<laughingtiger>windows is nothing but for some shitty games
22:55<ravenlx>Just install VirtualBox, the extension pack and then Windows and then Guest Additions in Windows. Then you can play the games.
22:55-!-cristian_ is now known as Haiku
22:55<Haiku>Hi All
22:55<ravenlx>Or maybe the games would run in PlayOnLinux and you won't need Windows at all.
22:55<Haiku>someone knows where to download the iso of stretch??
22:55<ravenlx>They are working on it, Haiku.
22:55<laughingtiger>hmm, thank you ravenlx
22:55<Haiku>uhm, ok
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22:56<ravenlx>Windows Store stuff though you need to run in Windows. PlayOnLinux doesn't run that stuff, I don't think. I never figured out how.
22:56<ravenlx>But then I don't know what games you need to run.
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22:58<laughingtiger>damn windows, fuck BillGates!
22:58<pavi[m]>Silently released
22:58<ravenlx>My script is on the last 5 packages and then it finishes. Then I get to see how well it did. If this works, I don't have to be watching the computer and can do other things while stuff installs and configures itself. Looks like I'll make it by midnight. Wonder if they will release by then?
22:59<ravenlx>@laughingtiger: I remember a long time ago a GIF showing BG pooping into each box of Windows95 or 98 on an assembly line! LOL! Ever see that one?
22:59<ravenlx>Your comment reminded me of that!
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23:00<ravenlx>@pavi[m] I'm waiting for the firmware non-free iso. Probably will go to bed and grab it tomorrow if it's not up by the time my script finishes and I'm done debugging.
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23:00<ravenlx>Looks like they released the images! From what is said in #debian-cd I think!
23:00<pavi[m]>ravenlx: any specific reason why you are going for non-free image?
23:00<ravenlx>I should go look, actually.
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23:01<laughingtiger>ravenlx, no I havn't see it, but it's ingenious
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23:01<ravenlx>pavi[m]: yeah. Old IBM ThinkPad T61 won't work WiFi without firmware that is non-free. :-/
23:01<jareds>@laughingtiger: there is a trade-off the kernel has to make between swapping of less active processes and caching for more active processes; controlled by vm.swappiness; range is 0-100; default is 60; reduce vm.swappiness if you want less swapping (but also less effective caching)
23:01<annadane>are there any packages out there which tell you if you're about to install something non free?
23:02<friki>annadane: vrms
23:02<pavi[m]>ravenlx: I normally install with cable and fight with drivers later.
23:02<Thraul>RavenLX: yes they are releasing the images. You can get the latest from
23:02<annadane>friki, i thought that's after you already have it installed
23:02<ravenlx>@pavi[m]: Too much fuss and stuff on my end. I might trip over the darn cable or something. LOL!
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23:02<laughingtiger>jareds, thank you for the info, I'll look at it.
23:03<pavi[m]>ravenlx: So obviously your only choice is non-free cd, hope its released.
23:03<ravenlx>I see they got the non-free up! Yay! :) Going to go wget that as soon as my script is done. That'll be awhile yet. It's going through some games right now.
23:03<friki>annadane: you are right, maybe you can apt pining?
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23:03<annadane>friki, not sure what that means
23:04<pavi[m]>ravenlx: yes
23:04<ravenlx>Oh nuts. I forgot the wget line! :(
23:04<ravenlx>And I bet it's right in front of my face somewhere here. :-/
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23:05<ravenlx>Uh... I really hate asking this as I look like a dolt but... what is that wget line that oh nevermind. I'll go man it! It's late. My brain isn't working.
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23:08<dvs>They missed the due date!!!
23:08<annadane>never mind, i'll just not be lazy
23:08<annadane>or retroactively vrms
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23:10<ravenlx>Ok, I'm getting the firmware/non-free image right now. I'm probably going to be asleep before it finishes though.
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23:11<ravenlx>@dvs: For me they didn't miss the due date. JUST made it! (11:11pm where I am and I'm downloading an image now).
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23:15<ravenlx>I hope this is the place to say this but I want to give a *really big thank you* to the dev team and everyone who worked hard to get Debian 9 released today! I haven't been in IRC in years and watching you guys work it was amazing!
23:17<annadane>well, i s'pose there's #debian-devel
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23:20<dvs>ravenlx, but the topic is late!!!
23:21<Thraul>No its not late it was an ETA. There were a lot of step's involved. May taken a little longer than expected. But it is available :P
23:22<dvs>But it makes it sound like it's still not ready.
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23:23<ravenlx>Go on to and they are up. What I need is up at least.
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23:28*pavi[m] wrote a Diaspora* post about the stretch release images and where to download them
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23:45<thoreau>Now with this update, what happens with backports?
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23:52<thoreau>Is sid Stretch's backport? XD
23:53<tacocat>backports and buster will appear soon.. not sure of the exact eta
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23:55<thoreau>I see, thanks tacocat.
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---Logclosed Sun Jun 18 00:00:38 2017