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#debian IRC Logs for 2017-11-12

---Logopened Sun Nov 12 00:00:19 2017
00:02-!-elof_ [~elof@114-25-204-93.dynamic-ip.hinet.net] has joined #debian
00:02-!-elof_ is "Elof Huang" on #debian
00:04<elof_>the notification area on panel was closed accidentally, how would I restore it?
00:04-!-dboehmer [~quassel@p5DD9DBF4.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #debian
00:04-!-dboehmer is "Daniel B\xF6hmer,,," on #debian
00:04<elof_>annadane:
00:05-!-marijnfs [~smuxi@2a01:c23:b806:5300:6c94:1102:693f:e1b0] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
00:05<annadane>elof_, i don't know
00:05<annadane>which is why i said, sorry, i don't use mate
00:06-!-marijnfs [~smuxi@2a01:c22:7219:4800:6c94:1102:693f:e1b0] has joined #debian
00:06-!-marijnfs is "Your Name" on #debian #smuxi
00:07<elof_>What do you use
00:07-!-dboehmer___ [~quassel@p5DD9CA6B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
00:07<annadane>plasma
00:08<elof_>plasma de?
00:09<o11c>as long as you're using stable (which you should be, if you're in this channel), Plasma is good
00:09<o11c>in testing it tends to break a lot
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00:10-!-gtristan [~tristanva@221.147.85.171] has joined #debian
00:10-!-gtristan is "Tristan Van Berkom" on #kernelnewbies #qemu #debian #ninja-build #debian-next #reproducible-builds
00:11<elof_>o11c: As I am using old pc, so I have to use low requirement de
00:15-!-kamiladali [~kamiladal@ip-60-228-239-173.router.siliconvalleywifi.com] has joined #debian
00:15-!-kamiladali is "Unknown" on #debian
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00:16<annadane>i'm on sid. :P it's been pretty good
00:19<o11c>yeah, unstable is better in some ways
00:20<o11c>but I *really* don't like fixing boot problems
00:20<o11c>I wish unstable was split into unstable-boot and unstable-gui
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00:32-!-SnooZ is "vincent minaud" on #debian
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00:39-!-ap4lmtree- is now known as ap4lmtree
00:40-!-CEP-2015-Jessie [~cep2015@host36.200-82-54.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Quit: Me jui]
00:41-!-Nick1296 [~nick1296@241647hfc48.tampabay.res.rr.com] has joined #debian
00:41-!-Nick1296 is "Nick1296" on #debian #debian-offtopic #debian-cd
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00:42-!-sunilmohan_ [~quassel@183.83.216.197] has joined #debian
00:42-!-sunilmohan_ is "Sunil Mohan Adapa" on #debian-in #debian-arm #freedombox #debian #monkeysphere #debian-boot #debian-reproducible #pere #debian-blends #osdg-iiith #freedombox-ci #debian-webapps #debian-js
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00:45-!-sunilmohan is "Sunil Mohan Adapa" on #debian-in #pere #monkeysphere #debian-webapps #osdg-iiith #debian-reproducible #debian-boot #debian-blends #freedombox-ci #debian-arm #freedombox #debian-js #debian
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00:50-!-sunilmohan__ is "Sunil Mohan Adapa" on #debian-webapps #debian-reproducible #debian-js #debian-arm #freedombox #debian-in #debian-boot #debian #debian-blends #freedombox-ci #monkeysphere #osdg-iiith #pere
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01:06-!-infinity0_ is "unset" on #debian #debian-mentors #debconf #debian-science #debian-rust #debian-mozext #reproducible-funding #binary-transparency #reproducible-builds #debian-reproducible #debian-privacy-tools #debian-gnupg #alioth #noisysq #otr #monkeysphere #cryptoparty #tor-project #tor
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01:07-!-sunilmohan is "Sunil Mohan Adapa" on #debian-in #debian #debian-boot #osdg-iiith #debian-reproducible #debian-webapps #debian-arm #freedombox #pere #monkeysphere #debian-blends #freedombox-ci #debian-js
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01:17-!-sunilmohan is "Sunil Mohan Adapa" on #debian-boot #debian-js #debian-blends #debian @#osdg-iiith #freedombox-ci #debian-in #monkeysphere #debian-arm #pere #freedombox #debian-reproducible #debian-webapps
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01:19-!-sunilmohan_ is "Sunil Mohan Adapa" on #debian-boot #osdg-iiith #debian-blends #freedombox-ci #debian-js #debian-arm #freedombox #debian-in #monkeysphere #debian #pere #debian-webapps #debian-reproducible
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01:32-!-wxrx [wxrx@89-166-26-5.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #debian
01:32-!-wxrx is "..." on #debian-offtopic #debian
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01:36-!-yohnnyjoe is "yohnnyjoe" on #debian
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01:39-!-sidmo [~ilven@p5B3D83AB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #debian
01:39-!-sidmo is "sidmo" on #debian-systemd #debian-next #debian-offtopic #debian-kde #debian
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01:52-!-kathenas is "Phil Wyett" on #debian-gnome #debian-reproducible #debian-bugs #debian-www #debconf #debian #debian-cd #debian-qa #debian-offtopic #debian-mentors #debian-derivatives #debian-live #debian-next
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01:58-!-xormor is "realname" on #debian-offtopic #debian #c++ #C
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02:00-!-yohnnyjoe is "yohnnyjoe" on #debian
02:02<scientes>o11c, when was the last time you had a boot problem?
02:03<scientes>I find unstable quite stable
02:03<scientes>...except when I am experimenting on my own system
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02:04-!-scientes is "Shawn Landden" on #debian-mentors #debian #kernelnewbies #debian-next
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02:17-!-sidmo_ is "sidmo" on #debian-systemd #debian-next #debian-offtopic #debian-kde #debian
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02:42-!-oalvarez is "Octavio Alvarez" on #packaging @#pinpoint #debian-next #debian-mx #debian-mentors-es #debian-mentors #debian-ipv6 #debian-gnome #debian-es #debian-devel-es #debian
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02:47-!-iflema is "ian" on #debian #slackware
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02:50-!-synthetic is "realname" on #debian
02:51<synthetic>Hello
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02:51-!-lizzzy [lizzy@wolfman.devio.us] has joined #debian
02:51-!-lizzzy is "..." on #debian
02:52<lizzzy>Hello. I get "Name or service not known" when I try to ping ANY *.it domain. My browser shows "www.google.it's server DNS address could not be found." I can view .ch, .co.uk, .ca, .nz, .com.au, etc.
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03:08-!-mathieu is "Blum Mathieu" on #debian-fr #debian-kde #debian
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03:14-!-hele_ is "hele" on #debian-next #debian-kde #debian
03:20<jelly>lizzzy: pastebin the output of "dig +trace google.it. NS". Install dnsutils package if you don't have dig.
03:20<jelly>!paste
03:20<dpkg>Do not paste more than 2 lines to this channel. Instead, use: http://paste.debian.net/ http://pastie.org/ or http://picpaste.com/ for pics. Use wikisend.com for large files (think tar.gz) up to 100MB. Remember to tell us the URL of your paste! Cannot cut and paste? Ask me about <pastebinit>, <nopaste>, <wgetpaste>.
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03:35-!-alanz is "Your Name" on #debian #smuxi
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03:54-!-romo is "romo" on #debian
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03:58-!-e4nd is "e4nd" on #debian-kde #debian
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04:01-!-yohnnyjoe is "yohnnyjoe" on #debian
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04:02-!-ao2 is "ao2" on #debian #cell
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04:04-!-elof_ is "Elof Huang" on #debian
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04:09-!-sunilmohan is "Sunil Mohan Adapa" on @#osdg-iiith #debian-in #monkeysphere #pere #debian-arm #debian-webapps #debian #freedombox #debian-blends #debian-boot #freedombox-ci #debian-reproducible #debian-js
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04:18-!-kmshanah is "Kevin Shanahan" on #debian
04:22<elof_>why does an irc server need sasl?
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04:35-!-jstein is "Jonas Stein" on #debian #osm-de #smxi @#mint @#fsfe #kernelnewbies #debian-mentors
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04:36-!-annadane is "realname" on #tor-project #tor-offtopic #tor #privacytech #debian-www #debian-offtopic #debian-next #debian-mentors #debian-kde #debian-bugs #debian-apt #debian
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04:36-!-SuperDale is "dale" on #debian
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04:37-!-JohnML is "realname" on #debian #siduction #siduction-de
04:39<Zimsky>because irc servers have dreams too
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04:39<lizzzy>jelly: https://pastebin.com/raw/gbn1FSzF
04:41<elof_>I asked irssi support, they said my isp is abused, so I have to connect via sasl
04:42<lizzzy>elof_: what network?
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04:49-!-deadalnix is "realname" on #debian #debian-mentors
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04:49-!-KOJIbKA is "Nikolay Bitsadze" on #debian
04:49<elof_>lizzzy: freenode
04:50<elof_>I try to do as https://freenode.net/kb/answer/irssi, but no use
04:50<elof_>unable to connect
04:51<lizzzy>irssi version?
04:52<elof_>1.0.2
04:52<elof_>Irssi v1.0.2-1+deb9u3
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04:54<lizzzy>directions should work.
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04:54<lizzzy>#irssi on freenode would be more helpful.
04:55-!-JohnML [~john1@ip-178-203-185-198.hsi10.unitymediagroup.de] has joined #debian
04:55-!-JohnML is "realname" on #debian #siduction #siduction-de
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04:58-!-JohnML is "realname" on #debian #siduction #siduction-de
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04:59-!-marcus is "Marcus Lundblad" on #debian #osm.se-spam #OSM.se #debian-gnome
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05:05-!-gtristan is "Tristan Van Berkom" on #kernelnewbies #qemu #debian #ninja-build #debian-next #reproducible-builds
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05:05-!-mathieu[fr] is "Blum Mathieu" on #debian-fr #debian-kde #debian
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05:20<elof_>thank god, my problem has been solved
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05:30-!-wCPO is "Kristian Klausen" on #debian #debian-next #debian-lxqt #debian-mentors #debian-live
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05:32<elof_>Is there any different between irssi and weechat?
05:32<lizzzy>a lot.
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05:32<elof_>lizzzy: the key difference is?
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05:34<rudi_s>elof_: Age I'd say.
05:34<lizzzy>I do not know how to describe it. Its like compairing Windows to Linux.
05:35<elof_>that a lot?
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05:35<rudi_s>Try both and see which you like more.
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05:37<elof_>oh! I saw the weechat screenshot
05:37<elof_>very difference
05:38<elof_>very different
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05:38<elof_>it is amazing
05:39<elof_>I also installed emacs
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05:41<elof_>Possible spambot?
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07:11<bari>hi, "bwrap: Creating new namespace failed, likely because the kernel does not support user namespaces. bwrap must be installed setuid on such systems." .... //setuidbit is set, i have custom kernel 4.13 with CONFIG_USER_NS, Debian/Testing..... any idea what's wrong? Nautilus cannot create thumbs due this issue..
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07:13<bremner>bari: #debian-next is where people support testing
07:14<bari>bremner, ok, thx for info
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07:21<amir>HI
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07:22<amir>HI
07:22<lizzzy>Hi.
07:22<amir>HOW ARE YOU
07:23<amir>what is this ?
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07:26<bremner>!chat
07:26<dpkg>This is not a chat channel, this is a Debian user support channel. Unless you have a Debian support question, please chat elsewhere, like #debian-offtopic, or #moocows on irc.oftc.net or ##chat on irc.freenode.net.
07:29<amir>thank you for the information
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07:48<utente>hi all
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07:49<utente>may I have an help about reading files from galaxy android , from debian 9.2 ?
07:49<utente>I tried gmtp, it reads folders but not files within
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07:50<utente>I tried with nautilus and thunar
07:50<utente>but none of them discovered any new volume
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08:00<klimi>Hello, Ḯ'm trying to install nvidia-drive. I tried what wiki says but when it comes to apt command but i got unmet dependencies: " nvidia-driver : Depends: nvidia-driver-libs (= 375.82-1~deb9u1) but it is not going to be installed". Any suggestion?
08:02<di0x>apt-get -f install
08:02<klimi>di0x, 0 upgraded, 0 newly installed, 0 to remove and 0 not upgraded.
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08:03<di0x>hmm apt-get install nvidia-driver-libs ?
08:04<klimi>di0x, long output... do you want me to put it on pastebin? or gist?
08:04<di0x>ok
08:04<klimi>di0x, but the main: unmet dependecies: "nvidia-driver-libs : Depends: libgl1-nvidia-glvnd-glx (= 375.82-1~deb9u1) but it is not going to be installed or"
08:05<di0x>apt-get install libgl1-nvidia-glvnd-glx still having dependencies?
08:06<klimi>di0x, libgl1-nvidia-glvnd-glx : Depends: libgl1-glvnd-glx but it is not installable or libgl1-glvnd-nvidia-glx but it is not going to be installed
08:06<klimi>di0x, oh and "Depends: libglx-nvidia0 (= 375.82-1~deb9u1) but it is not going to be installed
08:06<klimi>"
08:07<di0x>sudo locate nvidia-driver ; dpkg -i --force nvidia-drive.deb ?
08:07<klimi>di0x, is that command that i should run?
08:08<di0x>sudo locate nvidia-driver*.deb should return the PATH of the .deb file and for install its : dpkg -i --force
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08:08<klimi>di0x, it doesnt return any path
08:09<di0x>its because the *+ to wide, try nvidia-driver
08:09<Nemoder>I had to remove libgles1-mesa to fix nvidia update, but that may be unrelated
08:09<klimi>di0x, sorry?
08:09<di0x>yes and i use radeon no luck
08:10<di0x>locate nvidia-driver
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08:10<klimi>di0x, still getting no result... just blank output
08:10<di0x>sudo updatedb
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08:11<klimi>di0x, /usr/bin/find: '/run/user/1000/gvfs': Permission denied ; /usr/bin/find: '/run/user/116/gvfs': Permission denied
08:12<di0x>do it as root?
08:12<piper>libglvnd0-nvidia gets replaced by libglvnd0 there no longer libgl1-glvnd-glx
08:12<piper>https://tracker.debian.org/pkg/nvidia-graphics-drivers
08:13<di0x>hi piper thanks
08:13<piper>nice try DaddyCryforYou :P
08:13<DaddyCryforYou>?
08:14<piper>[11/12/17 8:13 am] [718] piper DaddyCryforYou[~aptosid@201.76.23.217] is messaging or inviting you, and you are umode +g, +j, or +G.
08:14<klimi>di0x, i did it as root and it was same result
08:14<di0x>do you used locate or find
08:14<klimi>piper, so i should install libglvnd0?
08:14<di0x>findaha thanks
08:15<piper>i don't know, i don't use stable, i use sid and use experimental nvidia NVIDIA 384.98
08:16<klimi>piper, so if i use sid it could work?
08:17<piper>!dontbreakdebian
08:17<dpkg>i heard dont break debian is https://wiki.debian.org/DontBreakDebian
08:19<piper><klimi> ↑↑
08:19<Nemoder>klimi: another option might be to see if aptitude can find a solution that doesn't break things
08:20<klimi>Nemoder, oh okay...
08:20<piper>Nemoder, it don't exist, aptitude can't fix it https://tracker.debian.org/pkg/libgl1-glvnd-glx https://packages.debian.org/search?keywords=libgl1-glvnd-glx
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08:21<Nemoder>piper: he said his main goal was to install nvidia-driver
08:21<klimi>i want to have nvidia driver yes
08:22<Nemoder>so 'aptitude install nvidia-driver' may offer some solutions to the conflict that apt doesnt
08:22<piper>try apt purge $(dpkg -l | awk '/nvidia/{ print $2 }') && apt install nvidia-driver nvidia-driver-libs nvidia-settings
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08:23<piper>DaddyCryforYou stop the crap [11/12/17 8:22 am] [718] DaddyCryforYou[~aptosid@201.76.23.217] is messaging or inviting you, and you are umode +g, +j, or +G.
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08:24<klimi>piper, https://gist.github.com/anonymous/fa406333905eb8e5b4ca328247f6e035
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08:25<DaddyCryforYou>i dont understand but ok
08:25<klimi>Nemoder, https://gist.github.com/anonymous/507a2952e3bbce2d50d8986d40b9bbbd
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08:29<Nemoder>that doesn't sound ideal either
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08:30<klimi>yeah
08:30<BrainError404>How can I set gnome-software to hold some updates to the current version?
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08:30<Nemoder>klimi: do you have manually held packages? apt-mark showhold
08:31<klimi>Nemoder, i just installed the system
08:31<klimi>Nemoder, and none are held
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08:34<Nemoder>klimi: can you install libgl1-nvidia-glvnd-glx
08:39<klimi>Nemoder, libgl1-nvidia-glvnd-glx : Depends: libglx-nvidia0 (= 375.82-8) but it is not going to be installed
08:39<klimi>Nemoder, but aptitude finished so im gonna try reboot
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08:44<klimi>Nemoder: Okay so it didnt work :D
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08:45<klimi>Nemoder: How can i remove nvidia?
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08:45<Nemoder>as piper said: apt purge $(dpkg -l | awk '/nvidia/{ print $2 }')
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08:54<jelly>lizzzy: so something is blocking answers (or queries to) dns servers for .it TLD
08:55<jelly>and for some reason there's no glue records for those provided by root servers
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08:58<jelly>lizzzy: can you add eg. "194.0.16.215 a.dns.it" "194.146.106.30 s.dns.it" "217.29.76.4 m.dns.it" "193.206.141.46 r.dns.it" to your /etc/hosts and see it that works around it
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09:01<jelly>lizzzy: or, in your case, no glue records provided by 8.8.8.8
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09:02<jelly>Nemoder: I'd go with aptitude purge '~i ?source-package(nvidia-graphics-drivers)', instead
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09:27<di0x>thanks jelly
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11:38<tor3e3>is this the official debian channel?
11:38<tor3e3>or is it that one on freenode
11:39<bremner>afaik, this one
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11:39<bremner>insomuch as "official" makes sense for an IRC channel of a volunteer project
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11:41<atom>atom
11:41<atom>uiogo9i[]]
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12:21<lizzzy>jelly: that fixes the "dig ..." command, but my browser and ping command are still not working. I'll remove the 8.8.8.8
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12:30<jelly>lizzzy: do you also your ISP's dns in /etc/resolv.conf?
12:30<jelly>have
12:31<lizzzy>jelly: only have 8.8.8.8 and 8.8.4.4, but im about to add my isp.
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12:42<lizzzy>jelly: switching to my isp gives the same results. I removed those lines from the /etc/hosts, added my isp's dns into /etc/resolv.conf and edited NetworkManager. Same results.
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13:56<jhutchins>lizzzy: It's just .it you have problems with?
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14:05<lizzzy>jhutchins: as far as I can tell, yes.
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14:23<BrainError404>Like I said above, how can I set gnome-software to hold some updates to the current version?
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14:27<lizzzy>I've used synaptic package manager to block updates on some stuff.
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14:37<jhutchins>lizzzy: I'm on a google network and I can resolve www.google.it
14:38<jhutchins>lizzzy: Have you installed anything like dnsmasq? I have you pastebinned your /etc/hosts?
14:39<jhutchins>lizzzy: Have you done anthing that would mess with /etc/nsswitch?
14:39-!-xpkill24 [~xpkill23@port-92-203-29-116.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #debian
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14:40<jhutchins>www.google.it has address 216.58.216.99
14:40<jhutchins>www.google.it has IPv6 address 2607:f8b0:4009:803::2003
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14:44-!-scientes is "Shawn Landden" on #debian-mentors #debian #kernelnewbies #debian-next
14:44<ach>i wonder it explodes
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15:10<lizzzy>jhutchins: Here are all my network settings I can think of. https://pastebin.com/raw/dGDEu8u3 I only have "dnsmasq-base" installed.
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16:45<sinsalov>should I enable automatically cron apt update and upgrade system on VPS?
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17:14<o11c>sinsalov: just install the `unattended-upgrades` package
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17:53<ivan>can gnupg2 be coerced into using urandom instead of random? installing rng-tools is ridiculous
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17:53<o11c>people still use /dev/random? Oo
17:53<ivan>it waits for entropy... forever
17:53<jhutchins>lizzzy: I suspect mdns4.
17:53<ivan>because, as everyone knows, entropy can run out!
17:55<jhutchins>lizzzy: No, mdns4 is OK. You might comment that line out and try mine: hosts: files mdns4_minimal [NOTFOUND=return] dns
17:55<iKarith>holy shit, gnome went insane and has flooded my logs with like 40GB..
17:56<jhutchins>lizzzy: ...although I think [UNAVAIL=return] just continues to the next entry (dns) if mdns4 isn't found.
17:57<iKarith>tracker-miner Sparql buffer error blah blah blah
17:57<o11c>iKarith: yup, I filed a bug on taht ages ago
17:58<iKarith>o11c: I saw a bug about it from 2015 but fixed
17:58-!-nowhere_man [~pierre@00012946.user.oftc.net] has joined #debian
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17:58<o11c>iKarith: basically, a bunch of devs went "wouldn't it be a cool idea if ___" without thinking of the consequences
17:58<o11c>iKarith: the fix was only for the symptoms (if it's mine)
17:58<o11c>so I added tracker* to my blacklist, just like most of non-free
17:58<iKarith>Yeah, I'm wondering if I can disable this tracker thing entirely at this point.
17:59<iKarith>if mdimport goes nuts on a Mac (happens), you kill it and it recovers.
17:59<o11c>yeah, there's a couple of ways, but not letting it ever be installed is the easiest
17:59<iKarith>It doesn't spam your logs
17:59<o11c>the spam is *because* it's blindly restarting
17:59-!-fstd_ [~fstd@xdsl-87-78-60-159.netcologne.de] has joined #debian
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17:59<o11c>despite crawshing after a couple seconds at most
17:59-!-ao2 [~ao2@host219-146-dynamic.23-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
18:00<iKarith>*sigh* of course gnome itself depends on it
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18:11<iKarith>I think I've killed it for now at least
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18:15<iKarith>o11c: Thing is, with the right kind of transparent filesystem compression, those logs would take up almost no space :)
18:16<iKarith>Even so, I've used tracker's command line tool to nuke its database, kill everything, and then went into Gnome's Settings app and disabled search completely.
18:17<iKarith>I just realized it actually put that crap in both messages and user.log, so I had 80GB of log spam.
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19:04<lizzzy>jhutchins: that didn't work.
19:05-!-xpkill24 is now known as xpkill23
19:07<lizzzy>jhutchins: nevermind, that did work. thanks!
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19:33<ivan>how do I build linux-latest? I need a debian/control and debian/bin/gencontrol.py wants an undocumented argument and a debian_linux python module
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19:44<ivan>okay, I think I figured it out
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19:57<lizzzy>jhutchins / jelly, thanks for the support!
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20:29<o11c>iKarith: you aren't using btrfs why?
20:30<o11c>iKarith: but filesystem-level compression usually resets after 128 KiB or so
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20:31<iKarith>o11c: I'm using the Debian default, which is still ext4. I don't know if I dislike or distrust btrfs really, but I neither like nor trust Oracle.
20:32<o11c>zfs is a great example of why copyright is fundamentally evil
20:32<o11c>and that copyleft is merely the best we can do while living under its yoke
20:33<iKarith>o11c: And Oracle claims to have the right to Copyright an ABI so that any header file describing it is infringement.
20:33<iKarith>But if I go down THAT road, some chanop would (rightly) remove me from the channel for awhile based upon my language alone.
20:34<o11c>yeah, I was banned for a year for complaining about systemd's "every bug is someone else's fault" policy
20:34<o11c>(and I *like* systemd)
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20:35*iKarith has had to invent a whole new dictionary of swear words to describe just how disgusting Oracle is for that or how the company should be burned and its execs ... chastised.
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20:36<iKarith>systemd is. In five years it'll be just a bloated mess that works well enough and people more or less are comfortable dealing with.
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20:38<iKarith>right now it suffers from half its documentation being out of date, the requirement that you learn whole new vocabularies to make it work, that it still lacks friendly tutorials and guides for n00bs, and that too many compromises are needed to make it optional.
20:40<iKarith>Debian has more than half of it masked off in order to make it optional, for example.
20:40<VMColonel>Hello, I'm trying to package a deb file using the wiki page, but i just want to push a bunch of binaries and run a shell script installer, perhaps a deb file isnt the best approach? Should I just stick with a tar.gz file and a shell script installer? If anyone has any additional resources that would be fantastic.
20:41<iKarith>VMColonel: you might get more help with packaging in #debian-mentors, but depending on what you want to do, a debian package might not be what you want to do.
20:41<iKarith>VMColonel: what're you trying to accomplish? :)
20:41<bremner>#packaging is better for unofficial stuff
20:43<iKarith>VMColonel: ie, is this a program you downloaded or one you wrote? And is it something that's going to have a ton of dependencies like Gnome and KDE stuff tends to?
20:43<VMColonel>iKarith: thank you! The goal is just to have a deb file as a proof of concept. There's nothing inheritly wrong with the shell script installer, just would like people to be able to install/uninstall it with apt.
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20:44<VMColonel>iKarith: nope, nothing X.
20:44<iKarith>fairly standard build system (autoconf or the like)?
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20:46<VMColonel>iKarith: and it's something a colleauge wrote (v. badly) without any installer, which is why i had to write the installer. It's baasically just configurations and other shell scripts.
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20:48<iKarith>bremner's suggestion of #packaging might be a good place to ask. Back in my day (15 miles uphill in the snow both ways to dpkg -iEORGB), we didn't have all this fancy debhelper stuff and debmake was an insane monolith that did black magic. *ahem* Where was I? Oh, right, the main thing you're going to want is for your shell installer to be able to install somewhere other than /usr as if it
20:48<iKarith>were in /usr
20:49<o11c>VMColonel: checkinstall is a thing
20:49<iKarith>basically to be able to stage the installation
20:49<VMColone1>pretty much
20:49<VMColone1>o11c: Thank you!
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20:50<iKarith>Debhelper used to be a process where you'd run the things you needed, but someone got the idea that it ought to just do magic like debmake of yore. Except people who aren't Christoph Lameter know how debhelper works and you can override the defaults.
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20:51<o11c>of all the distro build systems I've worked with, Debian's is the worst
20:51<o11c>that's why I don't make debian source packages, just binary ones
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20:51<o11c>it's not hard to get the dependency info right, and it's *way* less work
20:52<VMColone1>iKarith: Yes, some of my research led me to use that as well, but I was expecting the process to be somewhat more simple (like this checkinstall thing kinda) but less black magic, b/c when (not if) it breaks, I gotta be able to fix. :/
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20:54<iKarith>o11c: Debian source packages aren't that hard, really. In fact source packages are the thing that _hasn't_ changed much.
20:55<iKarith>yeah quilt format replaces a single diff. *shrug* That was getting necessary because DBS was nuts.
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20:55<o11c>iKarith: the major design flaw is that all the control stuff is supposed to go *inside* the package, and furthermore it seems designed to introduce gratuitous difference from upstream, rather than merely backporting patches
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20:56<ivan>not that hard but I just had to reverse-engineer how to build linux-latest and earlier today accepted that sbuild --extra-package= can't be used to give a give a package older than in the release and re-epoched a dependency
20:56<o11c>simple instructions of the form "download (and mirror of course) this tarball, apply these patches" is much saner
20:56<ivan>had to patch mk-sbuild to use overlay instead of overlayfs
20:57<ivan>doing packaging lowers my IQ
20:58<iKarith>o11c: The intended design of Debian source packages was an upstream tarball and a diff file that populated debian/ with control, rules, etc to provide information how to build the package. The need to apply patches for security, backport features, and follow Debian policy when upstream didn't led to the quilt system.
20:58<o11c>I really should polish off my privilegeless userns builder
20:58<iKarith>what you're supposed to do hasn't much changed.
20:58<iKarith>but any system is only as strong as what people do with it, I suppose.
20:59<o11c>COBOL is turing-complete and lots of stuff was written in it, that doesn't mean it's a good idea
21:01<ivan>I think Debian people could learn a lot from nixpkgs. like, there is an obvious way to rebuild all the packages. isn't that amazing?
21:02<iKarith>more recent changes (stripping non-determinism, building in chroots as standard practice, etc) complicate the process, but there's a reason why you want to do it that way, and that process suffers the same problem as systemd regarding incomplete single-source documentation for "how do I do this stuff?!" But once you get your head around it, it's not a bad system at all.
21:02<iKarith>ivan: why would you rebuild all the packages on a binary distribution?
21:02<iKarith>If you want a source distribution, those exist.
21:02<o11c>iKarith: with deterministic builds, most won't *actually* change
21:03<ivan>iKarith: because, say, you make a change to glibc or some other highly-depended-on dependency and want to make sure everything still builds with that
21:03<o11c>but it's a great way to catch version-dependencies that *don't* get specified properly
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21:04<iKarith>o11c: I haven't had to worry about that since I outgrew Gentoo :)
21:04<ivan>I found https://github.com/Debian/ratt which is a pretty depressing hack
21:04<iKarith>(yes, rebuilds would make sid a little easier, but sid isn't what end users are meant to use.)
21:04<o11c>Gentoo is pretty good at rebuilding stuff automatically
21:05<o11c>it's quite possible to build a binary distro on top of Gentoo, but most people love their USE flags too much
21:05<iKarith>Yes, but if you want Gentoo or Arch, you should be using those.
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21:49<elof_>test
21:49<o11c>elof_: test failed!
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22:03<elof_>Does Debian have clothing to buy?
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23:02<blarson>elof_: No, but some user groups have debian clothing. Debconfs usually have t-shirts.
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23:03<blarson>Some donate some or all of the profit to Debian.
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---Logclosed Mon Nov 13 00:00:21 2017