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#debian IRC Logs for 2017-12-01

---Logopened Fri Dec 01 00:00:46 2017
00:02-!-ka [~li@117.179.43.152] has joined #debian
00:02-!-ka is "realname" on #debian
00:04<ka>yes
00:04-!-ka [~li@117.179.43.152] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
00:04-!-anonymous_ [~anonymous@41.44.160.252] has joined #debian
00:04-!-anonymous_ is "anonymous" on #debian
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00:06-!-ka [~li@117.179.43.152] has joined #debian
00:06-!-ka is "realname" on #debian
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00:13-!-roihan is "realname" on #debian
00:16-!-acald3ron [~acald3ron@189.202.77.154.cable.dyn.cableonline.com.mx] has joined #debian
00:16-!-acald3ron is "realname" on #debian-next #debian-es #debian-mx #debian #linode
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00:26-!-ka [~li@117.179.43.152] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
00:28-!-ka [~li@117.179.43.152] has joined #debian
00:28-!-ka is "realname" on #debian
00:33-!-fred`` [fred@earthli.ng] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
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00:36-!-fred`` is "fred meissner" on #debian-next #debian #ck
00:39-!-j_f-f [~quassel@rs-7.jff-webhosting.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
00:41<ka>you
00:42-!-ol [~quassel@2406:e006:283a:1:8e89:a5ff:feca:57fe] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
00:42-!-j_f-f [~quassel@rs-7.jff-webhosting.net] has joined #debian
00:42-!-j_f-f is "J\xF6rg Frings-F\xFCrst" on #debian-gnome #debian-reproducible #multiarch #debian-voip #debian-games #alioth #debian-ubuntu #debian-systemd #debian-kbsd #debian-qa #debian-hurd #debian #debian-mentors #debian-www #debian-bugs
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00:44-!-jm_ [flier@000125af.user.oftc.net] has joined #debian
00:44-!-jm_ is "." on #debian #debian-ops
00:47<ka>Client: HexChat 2.12.4 • OS: Kali "kali-rolling" kali-rolling • CPU: Intel(R) Core(TM)2 CPU T7200 @ 2.00GHz (2.00GHz) • Memory: Physical: 963.1 MiB Total (219.3 MiB Free) Swap: 998.0 MiB Total (816.9 MiB Free) • Storage: 11.1 GB / 26.4 GB (15.3 GB Free) • VGA: VMware SVGA II Adapter @ Intel Corporation 440BX/ZX/DX - 82443BX/ZX/DX Host bridge • Uptime: 1h 59m 55s
00:49-!-Q-Master^Work [~q-master@217.175.38.170] has joined #debian
00:49-!-Q-Master^Work is "Vladimir Berezenko" on #debian-next #debianppc #debian
00:51<ka>三只笔呢
00:52-!-ZeroBeholder [~ZeroBehol@cpe-104-231-115-160.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Oops, lost my marbles-- AFK]
00:52-!-ka [~li@117.179.43.152] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
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00:59-!-kowalski_g [~kowalski_@reefnet.gigatest.pl] has joined #debian
00:59-!-kowalski_g is "Gabriel Kowalski" on #debian
00:59-!-yohnnyjoe [~yohnnyjoe@c-73-129-2-10.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #debian
00:59-!-yohnnyjoe is "yohnnyjoe" on #debian
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01:00-!-ksn is "ksn" on #debian-mentors #debian
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01:00-!-NomadJim_ is "Nomad" on #debian #linode
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01:01-!-alanz is "Your Name" on #debian #smuxi
01:05-!-csotelo [~csotelo@181.176.88.108] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
01:06<ullbeking>is anybody here using vscode on debian?
01:07-!-infinity0_ [~infinity0@occupy2.ecodis.net] has joined #debian
01:07-!-infinity0_ is "unset" on #debian #debian-mentors #debconf #debian-science #debian-rust #debian-mozext #reproducible-funding #binary-transparency #reproducible-builds #debian-reproducible #debian-privacy-tools #debian-gnupg #alioth #noisysq #otr #monkeysphere #cryptoparty #tor-project #tor
01:07-!-infinity0 is now known as Guest69
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01:07-!-infinity0_ is now known as infinity0
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01:18-!-fred`` is "fred meissner" on #debian-next #debian #ck #qemu #kvm #ceph #bitrig
01:18-!-marcus [~marcus@c-ed3572d5.014-990-7570702.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #debian
01:18-!-marcus is "Marcus Lundblad" on #debian #osm.se-spam #OSM.se #debian-gnome
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01:20-!-jack_ is "realname" on #debian
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01:22-!-acald3ron [~acald3ron@189.202.77.154.cable.dyn.cableonline.com.mx] has joined #debian
01:22-!-acald3ron is "realname" on #debian-next #debian-es #debian-mx #debian #linode
01:23-!-marcus_ [~marcus@gatekeeper.primekey.se] has joined #debian
01:23-!-marcus_ is "Marcus Lundblad" on #debian #osm.se-spam #OSM.se #debian-gnome
01:23<tt>https://i.imgur.com/blEwPfJ.png <-- screenshot, my debian 9 laptop
01:26<ullbeking>tt: what wm/desktop environment is that?
01:26<tt>https://i.imgur.com/TZLSRNM.png <-- and check this out, it's all parametric ;)
01:27<tt>lxqt mostly for what's visible
01:28-!-marcus [~marcus@c-ed3572d5.014-990-7570702.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
01:28-!-marcus_ is now known as marcus
01:39-!-isagar [~debian@103.44.137.40] has joined #debian
01:39-!-isagar is "I Sagar" on #debian-in #hamara #debian-diaspora #debian-mobile #debian-arm #debian #debian-offtopic #debian-live #debian-azure #debian-boot #libindic #debian-gnukhata #debian-ruby #debian-ftp
01:43-!-devbaka_ [~devbaka@p5B2230A9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
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01:50-!-acald3ron [~acald3ron@189.202.77.154.cable.dyn.cableonline.com.mx] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
01:53-!-chele [~chele@00022067.user.oftc.net] has joined #debian
01:53-!-chele is "chele" on #transparencytoolkit #debian-next #debian
01:59-!-ciampix [~Marco@46.226.205.27] has joined #debian
01:59-!-ciampix is "Marco Ciampa" on #geda @#po4a #sisu #osm #osm-it #oftc #freedombox #debian #debian-it
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02:01-!-SKYRAN_ is "SKYRAN" on #debian-boinc #debian-amd64 #debian #debian-in #alioth #debian-fa #debian-i18n
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02:06-!-KindOne [kindone@kindone.user.oftc.net] has joined #debian
02:06-!-KindOne is "..." on #utdlug #suckless #qemu #php #ovirt #osm #oftc @#mirc #linuxfs #linode #libevent #https-everywhere #globaleaks #gentoo #gcc #g7 #freenode #debian-next #debian #debconf #ceph #bcache #awesome
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02:07-!-isagar is "I Sagar" on #debian-in #hamara #debian-diaspora #debian-mobile #debian-arm #debian #debian-offtopic #debian-live #debian-azure #debian-boot #libindic #debian-gnukhata #debian-ruby #debian-ftp
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02:11-!-fred``` is "fred meissner" on #debian #ck #ceph #bitrig #qemu #kvm #debian-next
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02:15-!-Delta-One [~zero@2001:6b0:2:2801:b8b7:edf2:d580:750b] has joined #debian
02:15-!-Delta-One is "Patrick Franz" on #debian-kde #debian #debian-next
02:23-!-cyphase [~cyphase@c-69-181-148-225.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #debian
02:23-!-cyphase is "Cyphase" on #virt #suckless #qemu #powerdns #debian @#lost @#house.md #debconf #ceph-devel #gcc #awesome #osm #love #debian-offtopic #debian-next #debian-mentors #ceph @#p4xriddle #osm-dev @#heroes #guardianproject @#PrisonBreak
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02:31-!-H4ndy is "..." on #debian-next #debian
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02:31-!-mr_byt3s is "realname" on #debian #debian-next
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02:33-!-babs is "babs" on #debian
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02:37-!-Vollstrecker is "Werner Mahr" on #debian-kde #debian
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02:45-!-narcan is "Denis Briand" on #debian-localgroups #debian-mentors #debian-next #debian-offtopic #debian-france #debian
02:45-!-rebbdohr [~rebbdohr@ip-178-200-159-229.hsi07.unitymediagroup.de] has joined #debian
02:45-!-rebbdohr is "Randolf Kevin Meier" on #debian
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02:46-!-zamuro is "Romanes eunt domus" on #debian #debian-es #debian-ve
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02:57-!-briner is "BRINER Cédric" on #debian #debian-fr
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03:11-!-pamaury is "Amaury Pouly" on #oftc #debian-next #debian-kde #debian
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03:22<Grauwolf>ullbeking: yes to vscode.
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03:22-!-Tempesta is "ChoiKyuSang" on #debian #smuxi
03:23<ullbeking>Grauwolf: did you install from .deb or source?
03:23<Grauwolf>ullbeking: deb
03:23<ullbeking>And how do you avoid the proprietary bits?
03:23<Grauwolf>ullbeking: i don't
03:23<ullbeking>You just take it all as it comes?
03:24<Grauwolf>ullbeking: yes. i don't use it that often
03:24-!-ap4lmtree [ap4lmtree@000251a3.user.oftc.net] has joined #debian
03:24-!-ap4lmtree is "apl4mtree-" on #whonix #tor-offtopic #tor #debian
03:24<ullbeking>Grauwolf: what do u prefer? I hear such great things about vscode.
03:25<ullbeking>I’m trying to get away from Emacs because it’s too much cognitive burden
03:25<Grauwolf>ullbeking: i'm an avid emacs and vim user. but vscode is nice for some projects
03:27<Gabriel_7>ullbeking: there are proprietary bits?
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03:30<Gabriel_7>It appears the version they ship includes MS-specific config, not really proprietary code https://opensource.stackexchange.com/questions/4288/is-microsoft-vs-code-really-open-source
03:31<Gabriel_7>But the binary they release is not "released under the MIT license" (as the source repo is)
03:31<Gabriel_7>which would not make sense anyway as MIT license only applies to source code.
03:32-!-skitt [~skitt@skitt.user.oftc.net] has joined #debian
03:32-!-skitt is "Stephen Kitt" on #debian #debian-ftp
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03:34-!-leatherface is "julien" on #debian #debian-fr
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03:34-!-irl is "Iain R. Learmonth" on #tor-project #tor-bots #tor #pathspider #ooni-entropy #ooni-dev #ooni #debian-task #debian-qa #debian-live #debian-hams #debian-cd #debian-boot #debian-blends #debian-azure #debian
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03:40<ullbeking>Gabriel_7: I was told there are proprietary bits they try to drag in unless you build from source
03:40<ullbeking>Don’t know how reliable that info is
03:41<ullbeking>The MIT binary release question is interesting, I need to go back and read the licenses
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03:47-!-dreamlinux-user is "purple" on #debian
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03:51-!-jmux is "Jan-Marek Glogowski" on #debian
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04:05-!-Delta-One is "Patrick Franz" on #debian-kde #debian #debian-next
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04:14<silent>?
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04:16-!-HumanG33k is "realname" on #debian #debian-debsources #debian-desktop #debian-devel-changes #debian-fr #debian-france #debian-mozilla #debian-meeting #debian-mentors #debian-mirrors #debian-toolchain #debian-next
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04:16-!-Volley is "Wolfgang Scheicher" on #realraum #virt #debian-live #debian-kde #debian-next #debian
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04:24-!-in1t3r is "in1t3r" on #qemu #virt #linode #debian-next #debian-mentors #debconf #awesome #tor #subgraph #useotr #tor-project #otr-dev #https-everywhere #cryptodotis #debian
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05:05<Peng_>on Stretch, /usr/bin/python is always Python 2, right? There isn't some sort of experimental procedure to make it run Python 3 instead? (I'm not trying to do something to my system, I'm just trying to determine exactly what's wrong with someone else's.)
05:06<Peng_>(To be honest I run Ubuntu. I'm sorry.)
05:07<tt>Peng_: looks like it. I don't know what stuff like virtualenv might do
05:08<Peng_>Okay. This concerns about packages, no virtualenv involved.
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05:09<Peng_>If you're curious, replacing /usr/bin/python with Python 3 breaks a lot. :P
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05:12<OdyX>Peng_: /usr/bin/python is likely to stay python2 forever in Debian
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05:12<Peng_>Thank you both
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05:17<BCMM>Peng_: even on Sid it's 2.7.14
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05:17<Infiltrator>I am having problems with the 9.2.1 amd64 installer. It gets stuck at the "configure package manager" step (it just flashes and goes back to the same point). The log says "'apt-setup-udeb' succeeded but requested tobe left unconfigured. DEBUG: resolver (libgcc1): package doesn't exist".
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05:19<Infiltrator>Possibly related: I had to manually "mount /dev/sdb1 /cdrom" earlier.
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05:22<Peng_>BCMM: It wouldn't have totally shocked me if it was configurable, though
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05:22<tt>I checked if it was in the alternatives system. it seemed vaguely plausible :)
05:22<tt>and with apt-file; it's only provided by python-minimal, which depends on python2.7-minimal
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05:24<BCMM>Peng_: a bit like having /bin/sh configurable really - if packages have stuff that uses /usr/bin/python it will be written with the default in mind
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05:25<tt>/bin/sh is configurable though isn't it
05:25<tt>guess not. figured it was modularized when it changed to dash.
05:26<tt>it'd be easier to swap out than python2 for 3, I'll wager.
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05:33<Peng_>All you'd really have to do is set a flag day, edit the shebangs in every package from /usr/bin/python to /usr/bin/python2, and blame users if their third-party Python software doesn't work.
05:33<Peng_>It would be tedious, and I'm not saying it's a good idea, but it could be done.
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05:35<Peng_>tt: Thank you for checking. I don't know how to check alternatives from the web, if it's even possible.
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05:37<Peng_>https://linuxconfig.org/how-to-change-default-python-version-on-debian-9-stretch-linux How to break your OS in 3 easy steps...
05:37<tt>lol
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05:37<tt>I usually use one of '#!/usr/bin/env python2' or '#!/usr/bin/env python3'
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05:38<BCMM>that's what people *should* do, which is probably why they don't do it
05:41<Peng_>I'm a curmudgeon; my personal opinion is that /usr/bin/python should be Python 2 forever. Eternal backwards compatibility.
05:41<Peng_>But my opinions don't matter. The important thing is how Debian works, and at least some Python 2 programs use /usr/bin/python.
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09:17<shiftplusone>Do bugs get fixed in stable, or is it only for security fixes?
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09:17<tt>critical bugs, when they can be / make sense
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09:17<tt>not sure exact criteria
09:18<tt>sometimes bugs are left in-place in case users depend on the allegedly buggy behavior
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09:18<tt>mostly security fixes, though
09:18<shiftplusone>Not critical, but annoying after a while: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/systemd/+bug/1692353
09:18<tt>don't forget about backports
09:18<Iridos>security bugs get fixed as soon as possible via security.debian.org … other bugs may or may not be fixed, but they get in via point releases
09:19<tt>that's easy to work around / you will have the same kind of issues from other console-bound messages
09:19<shiftplusone>Was just wondering if it's worth opening a bug report for that if I can't find an existing one (I didn't see one against stable, but maybe it's already fixed in newer versions)
09:20<Iridos>but that's an ubuntu bug report… if the bug isn't in bugs.debian.org i doubt it'll get fixed
09:20<Iridos>yeah, dunno
09:21<tt>address it upstream with systemd (good luck), or learn how systemd/kernel/rsyslog/whatever gets configured wrt 1) what is considered the "console" and 2) what gets logged there
09:22<shiftplusone>The patch that fixes the issue applies onto an existing patch from debian. I think the issue may have been introduced by debian rather than upstream, but I am not 100% sure yet.
09:23<tt>oh, well, if so, then sure address via debian.
09:23<shiftplusone>console here is whatever is passed to the kernel with the console= parameter
09:23<tt>yes
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09:24<tt>I used to like to turn the getty/login-prompt off on vt1, and send all console-logged messages there
09:24<tt>or make like vt12 get them
09:24<tt>don't know how to anymore, must re-learn for modern debian/linux/systemd
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09:25<shiftplusone>That patch doesn't seem to exist in buster, so maybe it's already fixed or not an issue there
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09:25<shiftplusone>might pull in the backported package and see
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09:26<tt>indeed
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09:28<tt>hrm... is vt1 = /dev/tty1 ? and tty0 is all (current?) vts?
09:29<tt>yes, pretty sure. so console=/dev/tty12 is a workaround, and useful anyway.
09:29<tt>or console=/dev/tty12 console=/dev/ttyS0 , which I could apply across the board via config mgmt
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09:31<shiftplusone>I am looking into it for a derivative OS and users don't like changes in behavior like that.
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09:32<tt>ok. you understand that lateish boot/system messages over-writing the login prompt or interfering with interactive command-line session is to be more-or-less expected though, with default configuration, yeah?
09:33<shiftplusone>yeah
09:34<tt>it would be nice if it might obey your tty write bit / i.e. mesg(1) setting, but afaik doesn't
09:34<shiftplusone>Depends on when getty runs and how your kernel messages are configured. I don't know off the top of my head what the defaults are
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09:34<shiftplusone>right now I just get kernel messages over the shell and that stray CR
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09:34<tt>I think the defaults are console=/dev/tty0 = current vt, and systemd and/or kernel writes some stuff to it
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09:35<tt>seeing those high prio msgs is sometimes useful, but for the most part I seek out logging explicitly
09:36<tt>plus now you usually only need to be watching/tailing one thing (journalctl), or I guess + dmesg until that is integrated if it isn't yet
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09:37<tt>(imo, rsyslog did not need to be replaced, journalctl's goals could have been met with much less duplicated effort and gnashing of teeth as some patches sent upstream to rsyslog etc.)
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09:38<shiftplusone>I did like having rsyslog on vt12, but it seems like distros moved away from that even before systemd
09:38<tt>old argument though I guess, which has already damaged Debian enough
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09:38<woodoo>hi
09:38<tt>you can do whatever you like, that's what's so nice about everything being modular and configurable :)
09:39<shiftplusone>yeah
09:39<woodoo>i got debian running on my odys shape pro laptop/tablet, but i can't find out what the wlan device is
09:39<woodoo>lspci and lspci don't show a network adapter
09:39<tt>woodoo: does it show up in lspci or lsudb
09:39<tt>*lsusb
09:39<woodoo>no, there is no wlan or ethernet device there
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09:41<woodoo>it maybe one from intel, because the device is very intelish, but that is just an assumption
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09:45<woodoo>well lsusb shown some device which don't have any description though, i'll check those out
09:46<grove>!what's my wireless
09:46<dpkg>Install the hwinfo package and execute "/usr/sbin/hwinfo --wlan", or http://linux-wless.passys.nl/ , or ask me about <whats my hardware>. See also <wireless>.
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09:50<woodoo>that's cool but i will have to download it and burn the deb to a dvd because i have no internet connection yet
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09:51<tt>a cheap usb wifi and/or ethernet dongle can be a handy thing to have on-hand
09:51<tt>also, perhaps a live image that already has lots of useful stuff along those lines
09:54<woodoo>well another problem is it is a 32-bit-uefi device with a 64 bit processor, no image but the multiarch one worked
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10:44<edm1st>Hi! I need help with debian 9. Mouse problem. The mouse can move, but it can't click the desktop/menu. Click work in windows control although... help? Please!! xD
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10:48<Blacker47>edm1st, have seen something similar on a laptop with old intel gpu that needs a special kernel boot parameter to not cause problems.
10:49<Blacker47>so the problem was not with the mouse but with buttons on the interface (but not all buttons).
10:49<edm1st>Blacker47 No laptop here.. its a keyboard.. the keyboard works fine on osx... but not on debian.. whats the name of default window manager?
10:51<edm1st>i am used to work with gnome.. never encountered that kind of bug before in ubuntu
10:52<edm1st>i don't need the window manager.. but this bug is annoying me xD
10:52<Blacker47>so it is not a mouse?
10:53<edm1st>oh keyboard and mouse.. im sorry.. keyboard works fine
10:54<edm1st>i can open the app menu and blabla
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10:54<edm1st>but left click won't work xD
10:54<edm1st>wireless? with a small usb adapter
10:55<lavamind>hello, I was recently given access to an allwinner a10-based tablet device and would like to try and document installing Debian on it
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10:56<lavamind>the device doesn't seem to be officially supported but there is some information on th enet suggesting it might work
10:56<lavamind>I've been reading up on the wiki : https://wiki.debian.org/InstallingDebianOn/Allwinner
10:57<Blacker47>edm1st, so no idea.
10:57<edm1st>hu ok
10:57<lavamind>it says I need an sd-card with u-boot on it, do I just need to plug in the sdcard and it will boot from it ??
10:58<lavamind>this sounds too easy
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11:09<e3928a3bc>hi people
11:09<e3928a3bc>I have this terrible table with 32bit UEFI and 64bit arch. I managed for the first time to boot GNU/Linux on it using debian stretch's netinstall iso, which (unlike most other images) can boot on mixed UEFI. my problem is that the wireless driver for this tablet is only available through a backport from the sid release (https://packages.debian.org/stretch-backports/firmware-realtek), and so I'm installing the bare-bones debian netinstall iso without
11:09<e3928a3bc>I have installed the correct firmware after installing debian (although I'm sure it works yet), but don't know how to configure WPA2 wifi. most guides (such as https://wiki.debian.org/WiFi/HowToUse#Command_Line) assume tools I don't have installed. can anyone guide me please?
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11:11<Brigo>e3928a3bc, what tools do you miss?
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11:12<Brigo>maybe iwconfig :-m
11:14<e3928a3bc>iwconfig, auto, iwlist...
11:14<e3928a3bc>I think this system basically has coreutils + apt + dpkg
11:14<Brigo>auto is in a config file.
11:15<e3928a3bc>I can download the debs and load them if needed, but which ones will suffice?
11:15<e3928a3bc>Brigo: oops
11:15<Brigo>e3928a3bc, i think so, anyway try first editing the /etc/network/interfaces file as it's said in that link
11:16<Brigo>it could work without iwconfig, i hope.
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11:16<e3928a3bc>will do!
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11:16<Brigo>but there is a mistake, forget about wireless-mode and add wpa-psk
11:17<Brigo>in my configuration: wpa-ssid R-wlan3D
11:17<Brigo>wpa-psk 12345678
11:18<Brigo>e3928a3bc, http://paste.debian.net/998567/
11:18<Brigo>then ifup interface, in my example ifup wlan1
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11:21<Brigo>d3d83at, anyway you should use the non-free netinstall.
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11:22<tt>shouldn't device show up in lspci regardless of driver/firmware support?
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11:23<e3928a3bc>it is like this http://paste.debian.net/998570/
11:23<e3928a3bc>it says "cannot find device 'wlan1'"
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11:24<tt>well that won't work unless `ip link show` lists a wlan1 iface
11:24<Brigo>e3928a3bc, that's the name of my device not yours.
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11:26<e3928a3bc>tt: Brigo: `ip link show` outputs 1 line only: "lo: <LOOPBACK,UP,LOWER_UP> mtu 65536 qdisc noqueue state UNKOWN mode DEFAULT group default qlen 1 link/loopback ..."
11:26<e3928a3bc>I'm guessing no device recognized ?
11:27<Brigo>e3928a3bc, right
11:27<Brigo>e3928a3bc, do you know the your wifi's driver?
11:27<tt>e3928a3bc: confirm it's not disabled etc. in BIOS config
11:28<Brigo>e3928a3bc, lspci should list it too.
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11:28<e3928a3bc>the internet tells me it's rtl8723bs, but lspci doesn't list it, I got it from the net
11:28<tt>e3928a3bc: or go to BIOS, toggle it off, save, reboot, go back in to BIOS, toggle it on, save, reboot, check lspci again
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11:28<e3928a3bc>I'll check the BIOS then, thank you!
11:29<Brigo>e3928a3bc, which wifi do you have there?
11:29<tt>may also check if there are BIOS updates available
11:29<Brigo>e3928a3bc, and you can check the logs for some information about the wifi driver and firmware
11:29<tt>hrm... it's an "SDIO" NIC chipset... maybe that explains lack of lspci/lsusb entry
11:29<e3928a3bc>Brigo: there, on the BIOS?
11:29<Brigo>e3928a3bc, no, in the system logs
11:29<tt>"SDIO is an interface designed as an extension for the existing SD card standard, to allow connecting different peripherals to the host with the standard SD controller. Nowadays it's extensively used to connect WiFi/Bluetooth chips on ARM boards, like Wandboard, Raspberry Pi 3 or Banana Pi."
11:30<Brigo>try dmesg
11:30<e3928a3bc>Brigo: no BIOS then?
11:30<Brigo>e3928a3bc, i don't know.
11:30<tt>do both
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11:30<e3928a3bc>tt: it's this device https://www.driveridentifier.com//scan/desktop.php/desktop/591562F73281497EA59AD5D3AAA94F33?scanid=591562F73281497EA59AD5D3AAA94F33&friendly_pc_model=multilaser-m8w-type1-familytype1-tbd-by-oem-skutype1-sku0
11:31<tt>your best bet might be a $15 mini usb wlan dongle
11:31<Brigo> Realtek RTL8723BS ?
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11:31<e3928a3bc>not sure if info there is accurate though, but it's the one I have, I have bricked the device's original windows 10 installation. it's main "HD" is a 16GB SD card
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11:32<e3928a3bc>Brigo: yes! what should I grep for in dmesg?
11:33<Brigo>e3928a3bc, if i were you, i will restart the instalation with the non-free netinstall image from http://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/unofficial/non-free/cd-including-firmware/9.2.1+nonfree/
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11:33<Brigo>it supports your wifi.
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11:34<tt>e3928a3bc: sudo dmesg | egrep -C 4 -i 'sdio|rtl|wifi|wlan|firmware' | less
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11:34<tt>and yes, at the very least, boot that installer image ^^ and see if it makes either wired or wireless device appear (in e.g. `ip link show`)
11:35<e3928a3bc>Brigo: I'll try it! I didn't do it before because I thought it wouldn't, as it seemed to be available only on the sid released
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11:37<e3928a3bc>tt: hum, I didn't see anything I found useful in dmesg output, but I probably wouldn't know...
11:38<e3928a3bc>Brigo,tt: thank you both! I'll try this non-free image!
11:38<tt>if all that fails, try https://www.amazon.com/WIFOX-Mini-Wifi-Adapter-10-4-10-12/dp/B074WNFBPQ
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11:39<e3928a3bc>tt: yeah, I guess the dongle would have to do then.. I'm avoiding it because I'll also need a usb hub if I want to charge and have wifi at the same time hahaha
11:40<tt>there are some 2-4 port USB hubs with integrated lan, wlan, or both
11:40<tt>handy for e.g. raspberry pi work
11:40<tt>would think it'd be a little unnecessarily bulky for an ultraportable/netbook, but perhaps not if you only have 1 measly USB port
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11:43<jer0me>Hey there, using debian stable on a macbook 11,1, now with the 4.13 bpo kernel, I have troubles with the xhci controller which handles the keyboard, trackpad and sdcard reader. This leads to slow boot, keyboard unavailable for a minute or so, sdcard not working ... dmesg filtered for usb/xhci : https://paste.debian.net/998577/
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11:44<jer0me>the issue is the same using a livecd so I guess it has something to do with some garbage stored at the nvram/uefi/xhci somewhere.
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11:45<jer0me>I found a bugreport that mentions using the "macos rescue mode" that could "reset" or "clean" this to no avail.
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11:47<e3928a3bc>tt: that's great, I'll look for one of those!
11:47<lavamind>jer0me: it may be a bug with the kernel, did you try to install and boot the oldstable kernel?
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11:50<jer0me>lavamind: same thing with the -stable kernel. I used to have this issue with jessie after a bad halt (dead battery) and solved it using the apple rescue mode, reset nvram / smc. It doesn't work anymore.
11:50<tt>you know, I bet apple would get more benefit than most companies, from working to smooth the use and compatibility of linux on their hardware. but they don't give a crap.
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11:51<lavamind>jer0me: I meant the oldstable/jessie kernel, you can install it on stretch and it should work, I tried it this week
11:51<jer0me>not quite sure why they use broadcom on all their devices. The wifi, bluetooth and sdcard chipsets are broadcom and they usually suck.
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11:51<jer0me>lavamind: actually, I used jessie live usb stick to try but the issue was still there.
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11:53<jer0me>for the long story, I updated osx in case some firmware updates would help. There was some change that made grub unusable, so I switched to systemd-boot but the initial issue is still there and I lost a good 24 hours of my life :)
11:54<jer0me>so I used jessie stick to chroot into my stretch install and had to wait for a solid minute before the keyboard become usable.
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11:55<lavamind>for the sdcard maybe try unloading/loading the kernel module
11:55<jer0me>it works fine until linux boots up, select advanced options, rescue, enter, wait for the country selection ... 1 minute ... continue
11:56<jer0me>lavamind: the module is xhci_hcd which is also what the keyboard needs.
11:56<lavamind>well you can issue one command which will do both operations
11:56<jer0me>the goddam powerbutton being just a keyboard button, it makes things quite annoying when it fails.
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11:57<jer0me>sometimes, it not only times out, but the controller goes down (HC died message). From there, I could ssh and reboot.
11:58<jer0me>right now, I am sitting at Napoli airport with no other computer to ssh from, so I may try that later :)
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12:01<lavamind>you can always yank the battery
12:01<lavamind>can't you?
12:02<lavamind>I mean, worst case scenario ;)
12:02<deb9>good day folks ... minor question : what is the easy ( reasonably safe ) way to upgrade from stretch to testing? Simply change the sources.list and then apt-get update and apt-get dist-upgrade ??
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12:03<lavamind>deb9: pretty much, that's what I do anyways
12:03*deb9 thinks ..awesome..
12:03<deb9>okay .. I was thinking that.
12:03<e3928a3bc>tt: I've given up on the non-free image, the .deb file is this one 'firmware-realtek_20161130-3_all.deb', which does not include the driver I need, only the one from 20170823-1 has it!
12:04<jer0me>lavamind: I could if I carried with me a special pentalobe screw driver I guess.
12:04<lavamind>deb9: there's even `apt full-upgrade` now
12:04<e3928a3bc>Brigo: is there an easy way of coupling the image I have with this one .deb file I need for the wifi?
12:04*deb9 goes to look up pentalobe
12:04<deb9>lavamind: really ? well that sounds like a neato thing to try
12:05<lavamind>jer0me: ah right, as a non-apple owner I'm not used to that kind of shit :s
12:05<jer0me>lavamind: not to mention that airplane crew doesn't quite like people playing with batteries :)
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12:05<lavamind>haha
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12:42<deb9>not sure who is around but a question regarding moving to 'testing' per the instructions at https://wiki.debian.org/DebianTesting where it says Remove ... out your stable security updates line(s) (anything with security.debian.org in it). and moments later says "you should always have a corresponding deb http://security.debian.org <"testing" or codename>/updates main line" so what is going on there ?
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12:45<deb9>I will head over to #debian-next with that question
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13:18<tt>e3928a3bc: you can also add the firmware to a selected image manually, somehow
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13:19<tt>or just make it available on a separate USB drive. somehow.
13:20<tt>maybe see https://wiki.debian.org/Firmware but you're probably already past that
13:21<e3928a3bc>tt: yeah, I don't know how.. I've settled for downloading the testing release, which includes the firmware I need. hopefully that's enough...
13:21<e3928a3bc>I've following the instructions in the installation guide for making the firmware available on a USB drive, but it didn't work (don't know why) https://www.debian.org/releases/jessie/i386/ch06s04.html.en
13:23-!-tp_ [~tp@cpc92880-cmbg19-2-0-cust745.5-4.cable.virginm.net] has joined #debian
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13:23<tt>that does sound like a promising angle
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13:25<tt>e3928a3bc: prossibly it's not loading the newer firmware you're trying to provide because the kernel driver in the stable kernel is looking specifically for the lower, matching firmware instead. yes, try testing installer... that seems like a reasonable step at this point.
13:26<e3928a3bc>tt: will do! I thought it might be this bug (https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=740503), but I'm using the .deb file, so it must be what you said!
13:26<judd>Bug http://bugs.debian.org/740503 in debian-installer (open): «debian-installer: check-missing-firmware does not work with a USB drive that contains a partition table»; severity: important; opened: 2014-03-02; last modified: 2016-12-25.
13:27<e3928a3bc>judd: nice timing haha. I'm guessing that's not it because apparently it's no problem if you use the .deb instead of the firmware file directly (which I don't even know how to obtain)
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13:34<e3928a3bc>it might also be the fact that I'm booting from a USB, and have to put the .deb in an SD, as booting from the SD doesn't work (again, don't know why)
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13:48<jhutchins_wk>!firmware
13:48<dpkg>Firmware is software to operate electronic devices, usually contained in EPROM or flash memory. Some Linux kernel drivers require firmware to be provided from userspace, notably for <WiFi> devices. Most firmware files are not part of a Debian release as they do not conform to the <DFSG>; some are available via <contrib> and <non-free> packages, ask me about <search>. See also <installer firmware>. http://wiki.debian.org/Firmware
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13:55<jhutchins_wk>e3928a3bc: If the firmware is non-free, it won't be on the testing installer.
13:55<jhutchins_wk>e3928a3bc: Also, the installer is one of the last pieces of a release to get finalized, as it has to accomodate all of the other changes. It's usually not recommended until after the freeze.
13:55<jhutchins_wk>e3928a3bc: Preferred method is to install stable and "upgrade".
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14:04<e3928a3bc>jhutchins_wk: that's the one I got http://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/unofficial/non-free/cd-including-firmware/weekly-builds/multi-arch/
14:04<e3928a3bc>upgrading for me would be complicated, as I have no internet connection...
14:04<e3928a3bc>but your point does make sense.. if all else fails, I'll get a usb wifi dongle and that's it
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14:23-!-sidmo is "sidmo" on #debian-systemd #debian-next #debian-offtopic #debian-kde #debian
14:24<jhutchins_wk>e3928a3bc: Good luck! Most internals can be made to work these days, even if it takes some extra configuration after the install.
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14:24-!-Delta-One is "Patrick Franz" on #debian-kde #debian #debian-next
14:26<e3928a3bc>jhutchins_wk: thank you! I do hope I can manage this :)
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14:31-!-Xylon is "Joseph Graham" on #debian #suckless
14:31<Xylon>Hi, I'm a bit puzzled
14:31<Xylon>did debian pull the exim updates?
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14:32<Xylon>Apticron mailed me telling me 4 packages need upgrading on both my servers
14:32<Xylon>but when I log in and dist-upgrade there's nothing
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14:32-!-bolt is "-" on #awesome #virt #debian-next #debian #sd #oftc #qemu #suckless
14:33<Xylon>ah dw
14:33<Xylon>it's updating itself, I didn't realise I'd set it up like that
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14:47<jhutchins_wk>,v exim4
14:47<judd>Package: exim4 on amd64 -- wheezy: 4.80-7+deb7u3; wheezy-security: 4.80-7+deb7u5; jessie: 4.84.2-2+deb8u4; jessie-security: 4.84.2-2+deb8u4; jessie-backports: 4.89-2+deb9u1~bpo8+1; stretch: 4.89-2+deb9u1; stretch-security: 4.89-2+deb9u2; sid: 4.89-7; buster: 4.89-11; sid: 4.89-13; experimental: 4.90~RC2-3
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15:06-!-zut is "Debian Live user" on #debian
15:06<zut>Hi!
15:07<zut>I'm running a testing debian GNU/Linux.
15:07<zut>I have a problem under my boot partition.
15:07<sney>please join #debian-next for testing support
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15:08<zut>sney: maybe. But, it's not a testing specific question I think.
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15:08<sney>zut: please respect the channel rules, most of the same people are in both places anyway
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15:08<zut>I have a luks and ciphered partition.
15:08<zut>OK.
15:09<zut>No problem.
15:09<zut>I'll do it.
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15:27<nktech1135>Hello. Anyone here have any experience with targetcli-fb?
15:27<annadane>nktech1135, it's faster if you ask your actual question
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15:30-!-narcan is "Denis Briand" on #debian-mentors #debian-next #debian-offtopic #debian-france #debian
15:33<nktech1135>ok. Let's try this. I'm trying to set debian up as the os for a storage server. The clients will connect using ISCSI and for that i'm using targetcli-fb. I have 2 different drive arrays, /dev/sda and /dev/sdb. Everything goes well to set up, i can connect to the target from my client device which is a xenserver hypervisor. The hypervisor reformats /dev/sdb with lvm disks. This is fine until i reboot the storage server at
15:33<nktech1135>lvm disks
15:33<nktech1135>I have set global filters to reject all lvm in /etc/lvm/lvm.conf
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15:34<nktech1135>now pvscan shows blank but fdisk still shows them and targetcli-fb doesn't let map /dev/sdb
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15:36-!-jplejacq is "Jean Pierre LeJacq" on #debian-kde #debian
15:36<nktech1135>Anyone have any thoughts?
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17:24<chloroform>hey i am having this issue right here
17:24<chloroform>https://pastebin.com/yWhygyyE
17:24<chloroform>could anyone suggest a fix?
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17:28<mnuhmnuh>chloroform: i can only guess (never needed to myself) "apt-key update" maybe? maybe gui-apt-key would make it easy to do; dunno, sorry.
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17:28<chloroform>apt-key update
17:28<chloroform>Warning: 'apt-key update' is deprecated and should not be used anymore!
17:28<chloroform>Note: In your distribution this command is a no-op and can therefore be removed safely.
17:28<chloroform>lol
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17:30<mnuhmnuh>i call that sort of thing "debian-gotchas". :-|
17:30<chloroform>damn
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17:30<chloroform>this happened before too and i got impatient and reinstalled the whole OS
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17:32<mnuhmnuh>apt remove apt-key # perhaps.
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17:35<chloroform>apt remove apt-key
17:35<chloroform>Reading package lists... Done
17:35<chloroform>Building dependency tree
17:35<chloroform>Reading state information... Done
17:35<chloroform>E: Unable to locate package apt-key
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17:38<mnuhmnuh>chloroform: yeah, i only found gui-apt-key myself.
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17:42<annadane>chloroform, paste.debian.net
17:42<annadane>better than pasting everything in the channel, if it's over 2 or so lines
17:43<chloroform>yeah i gotchu
17:43<chloroform>sorry
17:43<mnuhmnuh>chloroform: i run buster/testing. i see gpg stuff in /etc/apt/trusted.gpg.d/ for jessie, stretch, and wheezy; not for buster. *maybe* just delete the contents of that dir? if anything's there.
17:43<chloroform>yeah done
17:43<chloroform>deleted
17:43<chloroform>still doesnt work
17:45<mnuhmnuh>drat. grep debian-user mailing list archives?
17:46<chloroform>i gonna reinstall i think
17:46<chloroform>i think the culprit is vbox
17:46<chloroform>everytime i install and run vbox the apt-key shit breaks
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17:47<mnuhmnuh>doubt that'll happen again if it's deprecated.
17:47<mnuhmnuh>maybe why it's deprecated?
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17:51<e3928a3bc>tt: @Brigo using the non-free testing image worked! I have internet now :) (although it didn't work during installation, I managed to configure wifi afterwards)
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17:54<mnuhmnuh>e3928a3bc: that's typical behaviour. better to install w wired connection, then grab non-free blobs if needed.
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18:01*mnuhmnuh wanted to tell e3928a3bc he/she should install stable and upgrade that to testing, but it's gone now. sigh. testing images are only for testing the installer, not for using.
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18:03<tt>mnuhmnuh: he tried that initially, but he needed newer kernel (I think, or at least newer firmware) for his weird SDIO lan+wlan chipset to work
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18:04<nmschulte_>Q: I've got a SATA HDD connected via a USB adapter to my machine. When I run hdparm, it is reported as a 4GB disk, but the disk is actually 1TB. The disk serial and model number are reported correctly, but other info is wrong, and gdisk/fdisk are unable to read a partition table.
18:05<nmschulte_>Is this indicative of a bad drive, or possibly a bad power source (drive doesn't feel like it's spinning), or a bad SATA adapter?
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18:06<tt>I'd suspect bad USB adapter, but if it's a brand new drive, it could be one of those counterfeits...
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18:07<tt>do you have data stored on there you want?
18:07<nmschulte_>tt: correct, trying to access data on the disk
18:08<tt>well, don't do any write operations or mount anything from it read-write until you have your problem sorted
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18:10<tt>how are you invoking hdparm, that it says it's a 4GB disk?
18:10<nmschulte_>`hdparm -iI /dev/...`
18:12<tt> device size with M = 1000*1000: 320072 MBytes (320 GB)
18:12<tt>^^ so looks like that, except it's 4GB ?
18:13<nmschulte_>you got it
18:14<tt>are you able to try connecting it directly to a SATA port, to test the USB-adapter-is-crap hypothesis?
18:15<nmschulte_>that's the next move -- don't have the resources on hand at the moment
18:15<tt>gotcha
18:16<nmschulte_>thanks for your help
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18:31<Mario_1_>Hi. Does anybody else use Cinnamon desktop with debian?
18:31<somiaj>!anyone
18:31<dpkg>Please do not ask if anyone can help you, knows 'something' or uses 'some_program'. Instead, ask your real question. (If the real question _was_ "does anyone use 'some_program'?" ask me about <popcon> instead.) See <ask> <ask to ask> <polls> <search> <sicco> <smart questions>.
18:32<mnuhmnuh>Mario_1_: sure. not me, but ...
18:32<somiaj>Mario_1_: I'm positive that many people use cinnamon. You could check out who reports having it installed, I'm sure this info is out there with the popcon data
18:32<Mario_1_>I have problem with icons and desktop overall. It looks like nemo-desktop isn't installed but I can't even install it through apt-get.
18:32<Mario_1_>Is it common?
18:33<somiaj>Mario_1_: Where did you install cinnamon from? The debian package will not depend on things not in debian.
18:33<Mario_1_>netinst
18:33<somiaj>so from the debian archive. Why do you think this package 'nemo-desktop' is needed?
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18:33<Mario_1_>so what should work as icons etc?
18:34<Mario_1_>Even if I have files in "Desktop" folder, they don't appear on actual desktop.
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18:34<somiaj>You are being very vague and not being that clear. You should narrow down your issues one at a time.
18:34<Mario_1_>I can't even right click on desktop.
18:35<somiaj>Mario_1_: it is usually the file manager that puts icon on the Desktop.
18:35<Mario_1_>Sorry.
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18:35<somiaj>I'm unsure what file manager cinnamon uses.
18:35<tt>and it's not uncommon for that to not be a feature, or be opt-in (or opt-out-able) on *nix
18:35<tt>(having icons visible on desktop)
18:35<Mario_1_>It uses nemo. My current version is 3.2.2
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18:35<somiaj>Mario_1_: It? The debian desktop will not use software not in debian.
18:36<mnuhmnuh>Mario_1_: try "aptitude search nemo" and see if anything it reports might be what you look for.
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18:36<somiaj>Mario_1_: can you share the output of 'apt-cache policy' and 'apt-cache policy cinnamon-desktop-environment' at paste.debian.net
18:37<Mario_1_>It found few nemo things, some of them I have installed but no nemo-desktop.
18:38<mnuhmnuh>Mario_1_: are you running stretch/stable?
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18:39<Mario_1_>http://paste.debian.net/998648/
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18:40<Mario_1_>i'm running stretch
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18:40<somiaj>Mario_1_: what happens if you run the 'nemo' filemanager which you have installed?
18:40<Mario_1_>It just opens file manager window.
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18:41<somiaj>Mario_1_: are you able to open up that file manager, after that, go through and look at the settings. You may have to (as tt mentioned) configure the file manager to show the icons on the desktop.
18:42<Mario_1_>It has no settings about desktop, only about the file manager window itself.
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18:46<Mario_1_>Any ideas?
18:47<e3928a3bc>mnuhmnuh: I'm using a terrible tablet which has only a micro-usb port! it'd be difficult to get a wired connection, although I'd love to have it!
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18:48<tt>e3928a3bc: glad you got your wlan sorted
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18:52<mnuhmnuh>e3928a3bc: yeah, tt explained that, sorry. i've lots of hate stored up re: hardware. thank gawd for software!
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18:53<mnuhmnuh>"bleeding edge", where hardware is concerned, is not a funny joke.
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18:54<somiaj>Mario_1_: I don't have any, maybe ask back at a different time and see if any cinnamon users can help. It could be that feature/option is just not available in the debian version of the desktop.
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18:55<Mario_1_>It's weird imho. In System settings/Desktop there are options about desktop icons like Computer or Trash but even after marking them to show, desktop stays empty.
18:56<Mario_1_>It looks like there is nothing to handle desktop.
18:56<e3928a3bc>tt: thank you and Brigo!
18:56<Mario_1_>I will try to add external repository or something like that for nemo-desktop.
18:56<e3928a3bc>mnuhmnuh: indeed, software ftw!
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19:03<somiaj>Mario_1_: don't, that will only break your system. The issue is something else and not du to missing this package you think should be there.
19:03<tt>!dontbreakdebian
19:03<dpkg>methinks dont break debian is https://wiki.debian.org/DontBreakDebian
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19:04<Mario_1_>So I made a backup of system and moved to testing repos.
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19:07<somiaj>That won't magically fix this issue either.
19:07<Mario_1_>Who knows, I've seen enough magic in my life.
19:08<somiaj>you are on the path to breaking debian, you should maybe read the wiki article tt had the bot paste
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19:09<Mario_1_>I've seen this many times. I know I may break debian.
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19:12<mnuhmnuh>Mario_1_: reinstall often. you learn something new every time. tough to get anything done, but educational, nevertheless.
19:12<spleephy>Hello ^
19:13<Mario_1_>My primary OS is Windows 10. Debian installs so fast that I can reinstall it almost everyday.
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19:16<Mario_1_>BTW what's the best desktop interface for debian for touchscreen?
19:17<Mario_1_>Or what would you choose?
19:19<Mario_1_>brb, restarting after moving to testing
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19:21*mnuhmnuh i wouldn't be choosing win* as my primary os if i liked debian, or any linux (but i'll shut up now). grumble, mumble, ...
19:21<Mario_1_>I'm back. Nemo version is much newer but the problem still occurs.
19:22<Mario_1_>Because of how MS dominated market, Windows is main PC system for games.
19:22<Mario_1_>That's the main reason why it's my primary os.
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19:25<mnuhmnuh>Mario_1_: sorry, ignore that, just my prejudice, and that's way offtopic for #debian.
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19:32<Mario_1_>Oh, I found the issue. Nemo desktop works only with user accounts and I was logged using root. (inb4 using root account is bad)
19:32<Mario_1_>Now is there any way to make it work with root too?
19:33<tacocat>why would you want to though
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19:33<mnuhmnuh>Mario_1_: you loginto X as root?!?
19:34*tt wails
19:34<annadane>unless you _know_ you need to use root
19:34<annadane>do not use root
19:34*mnuhmnuh that's what using win* does to your mind.
19:34<annadane>and do not login x as root
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19:35<mnuhmnuh>annadane: NO! not even then! login as user, open a terminal, su - # jeebus!!!
19:36<Mario_1_>Actually I do not care about security in this case. As I said, it's not my primary system. I have no important data here and it's more like for fun.
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19:37<Mario_1_>I also have a VPS where everything is configured well and works since 2-3 years.
19:37<tt>Mario_1_: I hear what you're saying, and I know e.g. Kali does the same thing, etc. etc., but X things especially often make the assumption that they will be ran as a normal user
19:37<tacocat>Mario_1_: look for a related option in nemo --help; if there is one it's safe to assume that there is no way to override the root check
19:37<tacocat>if there isn't one, rather
19:38<tt>Mario_1_: also there's really no reason to not run as a user. plenty of good reasons to do so, some arguable, some not.
19:38<mnuhmnuh>you learn bad habits that way and then one day, when you're half asleep, !@#$ happens. "Can you guys help me? I think I fsck'd up, or sumfin."
19:38<Mario_1_>Actually gnome-tweak-tool should fix that.
19:38<tacocat>the beauty of foss is that you can always patch things out yourself. not that it's always a great idea
19:38<Mario_1_>When I f#$% something up, I just start at the beginning.
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19:41<mnuhmnuh>Mario_1_: and if you're adminning a box others are using/storing their personal info on, you just gave them away, or added your box to a botnet which's now attacking everyone/everything/...
19:42<Mario_1_>Noone else uses this PC.
19:42<mnuhmnuh>you think!
19:43<mnuhmnuh>botnets have been found running linux.
19:43<tt>a guy goes to the doctor, and says, "Doctor, it hurts when I do *this*."
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19:47<Mario_1_>I'm going for now, have a good day/night/time. Bye.
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19:49*mnuhmnuh "Geez, what a bunch of stuffed shirts those *nix people are! Sheesh."
19:49<Someonz>While including with reprepro a package, how can I set the component of the distribution where it will be saved?
19:50<Someonz>For example, I want to save a package in kingdedede non-free, for example
19:50<Someonz>I've written for example two times :/
19:50<mnuhmnuh>Someonz: not at all clear what you're asking, sorry.
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19:52<tt>Someonz: I understand the question, but am not familiar enough w/ the tool to know the answer.
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19:53<Someonz>tt I've find my myself, thx
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20:07<b17>How to find out what program is using swap?
20:09<tt>b17: real quick question just to avoid an X/Y problem... do you think you have an undesirable situation of using too much swap, and what makes you think that?
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20:10<b17>tt, nah it's under control, 2g or ram 2g swap, after about 7 days I noticed it increases from 0 to 122, doesn't seem to be active though.
20:11<tt>ok, yes; you're seeing Linux pre-emptively swapping
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20:11<b17>swapoff/swapon now and then or leave it alone?
20:11<tt>it's a good thing
20:11<tt>leave it alone
20:11<tt>processes don't use swap, the kernel memory manager does
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20:12<b17>just curious
20:12<tt>if processes are causing you to use swap, you can just look at top to see what's using all your memory
20:12<tt>you can turn down the swappiness value if it really bothers you
20:12<tt>but honestly you shouldn't, should just let it do its thing
20:13<b17>yeah swappiness is default i don't think that's necessary thanks
20:14<mnuhmnuh>b17: start w blaming webbish stuff (eg. firefox), and you won't likely be far off. yes, others use it too, but they're generally better about being gentle and cleaning up after themselves.
20:14<tt>mnuhmnuh: no, it does not work like that
20:14<tt>unless you're talking about RAM, rather than SWAP
20:15<b17>just wondering how big it will get, closing all apps doesn't seem to clear it out. probably kernel like tt said
20:15<mnuhmnuh>tt: well, it may've changed since i last looked.
20:15<tt>a healthy/perfect system swaps out stuff that's not likely to be swapped back in e.g., to make more space for disk cache; you wanna see your ram full of disk cache :)
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20:18<tt>b17: you should be concerned when there is swap activity, stuff being activity swapped in and out. or when swap use increases because some malfunctioning program is consuming all of your memory.
20:18<tt>*actively
20:19<b17>yeah i ran kde for a couple years and on jessie swap always stayed at 0, I guess things have changed a little.
20:19<tt>I was trying to find a good writeup/documentation about it... you can at least read the "One more thing" at the bottom of: http://blog.scoutapp.com/articles/2015/04/10/understanding-page-faults-and-memory-swap-in-outs-when-should-you-worry
20:21<tt>also some stuff here http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/10678 . sorry don't have time to find something better :)
20:21<mnuhmnuh>b17: install more ram and i doubt you'll ever see any swap used.
20:21<tt>mnuhmnuh: also not correct
20:21<mnuhmnuh>tt: worked for me for years.
20:22<b17>2g is max and it seems plenty, really no problem at all even with firehog-esr open for a week
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20:25<tt>b17: this also seems informative: http://northernmost.org/blog/swap-usage-5-years-later/
20:26<b17>tt, boomakrked the links ty
20:26<tt>and even answers your original, misguided question :)
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20:32<mnuhmnuh>b17: another thing re: swap: it's only relevant wrt servers that you desperatly don't want to crash and reboot for lack of storage. it's a stupid thing to rely on for an interactive user's machine. it's a way outdated, hardware related "paradigm" thingamahooey, which cheap storage costs obsoleted long ago.
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20:34<tt>mostly true. but swap can still give you time to correct an issue before the OOM massacre, if e.g. you're developing and made a bug
20:34<mnuhmnuh>user boxes shouldn't even have swap ptns.
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20:35<tt>and also it's nice to have a slow/cheaper place to put cruft that must technically stay in virtual memory but will not be requested again, so that your physical memory can be used for disk cache, or programs you're actually running
20:35<tt>which is what linux does and why b17 is seeing a token amount of swap used
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20:36<tt>at 2G of ram, I'd def. keep the swap partition
20:37<b17>i don't use hibernate, but yeah i think it's a good idea to have the space. something like libreoffice or gimp can really strain 2gigs
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20:40<mnuhmnuh>not saying it's wrong to have a swap just to fall back on, but max out RAM and it should be irrelevant, and it'll always be slower/BLOODY ANNOYINGLY SLOW compared to RAM on a user's interactive desktop box. swap is for servers. avoid using it if possible otherwise.
20:41<tt>see, that's where you're making your mistake
20:41<tt>it's not slow, because I'm not saying you want to be actually paging out and back in.
20:42<tt>swap isn't going to slow you down until you're at the point where without swap you'd be out of RAM
20:44<mnuhmnuh>tt: are you suggesting (i know you can't be) that writing to swap is anywhere near as fast as writing to storage?!? that'd be some fast harddrive.
20:45<mnuhmnuh>sorr, as writing to RAM
20:45<tt>ok dunno what you mean by storage... ram I guess. writing something to swap you'll never read again gives you more RAM
20:46<tt>more physical memory available == easier allocation & more disk cache
20:46<tt>you should read the links I gave b17
20:46<tt>anyway, bbl
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23:10-!-Hotpot33 is "WUT" on #virt #tor #qemu #linode #fsci #debian #ceph
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23:14-!-kelsoo is "kelsoo" on #debian
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23:22-!-jipege1 is "zaza,,," on #debian #debian-publicity #debian-i18n #debian-www #debian-l10n-fr #debian-doc
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23:33-!-semeion is "semeion" on #help #oftc #lxde #debian-br #debian #openbox #bitlbee
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23:37-!-philomath is "realname" on #debian-browserify #debian-mentors #debian
23:37-!-pavlushka [~pavlushka@00021abb.user.oftc.net] has joined #debian
23:37-!-pavlushka is "pavlushka" on #linode #debian #oftc
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23:54-!-yohnnyjoe [~yohnnyjoe@c-73-129-2-10.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #debian
23:54-!-yohnnyjoe is "yohnnyjoe" on #debian
23:57-!-gtristan [~tristanva@91.151.6.155] has joined #debian
23:57-!-gtristan is "Tristan Van Berkom" on #kernelnewbies #qemu #debian #ninja-build #debian-next #reproducible-builds
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---Logclosed Sat Dec 02 00:00:48 2017