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#debian IRC Logs for 2017-12-02

---Logopened Sat Dec 02 00:00:48 2017
00:02-!-yohnnyjoe [~yohnnyjoe@c-73-129-2-10.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
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00:33-!-kelsoo is "kelsoo" on #debian
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01:04-!-NakidTex is "OFTC WebIRC Client" on #debian
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01:09-!-lathiat is "Trent Lloyd" on #debian #ceph
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01:11-!-dpalacio is "david" on #debian-kde #debian
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01:14-!-Vollstrecker_ is "Werner Mahr" on #debian-kde #debian
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01:22-!-elof_ [~elof@114-36-247-159.dynamic-ip.hinet.net] has joined #debian
01:22-!-elof_ is "Elof Huang" on #debian
01:22<elof_>Where can I found the C library?
01:24<tt>not sure exactly what you want/need, but you may be pretty much looking for: apt install build-essential
01:25<elof_>tt: I want to know where is gcc library located.
01:28<tt>there's libc6 & libc6-dev
01:28-!-wavekidsjp [~wavekidsj@h219-110-18-091.catv02.itscom.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
01:28<tt>e.g., `dpkg -L libc6:amd64` → a bunch of shared libraries
01:29<tt>what do you want to do [with it when you find it]?
01:29<elof_>I am using x86
01:30<elof_>Where are the GNU C Library headers?
01:31<tt>libc6-dev
01:31<tt>which comes with build-essential, btw :)
01:32<elof_>they are .so files
01:32<elof_>Should it not be .h?
01:32-!-kelsoo [~kelsoo@86.53.50.178] has joined #debian
01:32-!-kelsoo is "kelsoo" on #debian
01:32<tt>keep looking
01:33<tt>`dpkg -L libc6-dev | grep '\.h$'
01:34<elof_>it shows ">" only
01:34<tt>dpkg -L libc6-dev | grep '\.h$'
01:34<dpkg>ii libc6-dev | grep '\.h$' 1.5-14.1 tt's private stamp collection
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01:40-!-wompa is "Tomas Heikkilä" on @#linux #debian-offtopic #debian-next #debian
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04:01-!-kunchenjunga is "seneca" on #debian
04:01<kunchenjunga>i'm retarded
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05:31-!-jhutchins is "Jonathan Hutchins" on #oftc #debian
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05:52-!-BCMM is "BCMM" on #debian #debian-next
05:52-!-ps|kos is "ps|kos" on #oftc
05:52-!-ps|kos [~ps|kos@2a02:59e0:0:7::12] has joined #debian
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05:55-!-tetrapovicc is "trifyl" on #debian-fr #debian
05:57-!-yohnnyjoe [~yohnnyjoe@c-73-129-2-10.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #debian
05:57-!-yohnnyjoe is "yohnnyjoe" on #debian
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06:11-!-dselect is "dpkg backup readonly db" on #debian ##uddmill
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06:15-!-KindOne_ [kindone@h74.166.142.40.ip.windstream.net] has joined #debian
06:15-!-KindOne_ is "..." on #utdlug #suckless #qemu #php #ovirt #osm #oftc #linuxfs #linode #libevent #https-everywhere #globaleaks #gentoo #gcc #g7 #freenode #debian-next #debian #debconf #ceph #bcache #awesome
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06:15-!-lpouzenc is "Ludovic Pouzenc" on #debian #debian-fr
06:18-!-juanito [~juanito@93.176.150.114] has joined #debian
06:18-!-juanito is "juanito" on #debian-kde #debian
06:18-!-juanito is now known as real007
06:18-!-f10 [~flo@ip5b40034f.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de] has joined #debian
06:18-!-f10 is "f10" on #debian-kde #debian
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06:20-!-wavekidsjp is "wavekidsjp" on #debian
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06:27-!-czesmir_ is "Stefan" on #debian-next #debian
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06:30-!-Oebele_ is "Oebele" on #debian #debian-next
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06:30-!-thunderrd is "realname" on #oftc #tor @#GamersOnLinux #siduction #debian #ck #aptosid
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06:33-!-fabiano_ is "Fabiano" on #debian #packaging #debian-mentors #debian-kde #debian-br
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06:39-!-ansel [~ansel@tmo-112-124.customers.d1-online.com] has joined #debian
06:39-!-ansel is "Andreas Seltenreich" on #debian
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06:45-!-brunoramos is "Bruno Ramos" on #debian #debian-next #debian-mentors #debian-bugs #debian-doc #debian-forensics #debian-games #debian-installer #debian-perl #debian-reproducible #debian-welcome #packaging #debian-offtopic #debian-boot #debian-cloud #debian-js #virt
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06:50-!-nowhereman is "Pierre Thierry" on @#concatenative #emacs #git @#erights #lisp #debian-kde #debian
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06:59-!-iflema is "ian" on #debian #slackware
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07:01-!-kenoby is "realname" on #debian-next #debian
07:01-!-promach_ [~promach@bb219-74-174-136.singnet.com.sg] has joined #debian
07:01-!-promach_ is "realname" on #debian #gcc #kernelnewbies #lowRISC #geda
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07:05-!-dpkg is "apt backup" on #debian
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07:18-!-anonymous_ is "anonymous" on #debian
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07:24-!-spacepup is "spacepup" on #debian
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07:27-!-brunoramos is "Bruno Ramos" on #debian #debian-next #debian-mentors #debian-bugs #debian-doc #debian-forensics #debian-games #debian-installer #debian-perl #debian-reproducible #debian-welcome #packaging #debian-offtopic #debian-boot #debian-cloud #debian-js #virt
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07:30-!-fstd [~fstd@xdsl-89-0-50-42.netcologne.de] has joined #debian
07:30-!-fstd is "fstd" on #gentoo #linuxfs #gcc #awesome #oftc #vserver #suckless #osm #linode #debian #kernelnewbies
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07:31-!-glebihan is "glebihan" on #debian #debian-next #lxde #openbox
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07:33-!-Kruppt is "realname" on #suckless #debian-next #debian #aptosid
07:38-!-epony [~nym@77-85-133-37.ip.btc-net.bg] has joined #debian
07:38-!-epony is "Eponymous Pseudonym" on #virt #tor-project #tor-offtopic #tor-mobile #tor-bots #tor #suckless #qemu #otr #openvas #munin #kvm #gcc #debian #C #bitrig
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07:48-!-Linked is "realname" on #debian
07:51-!-aversario [~aversario@BSN-77-80-133.static.siol.net] has joined #debian
07:51-!-aversario is "ByrdIRC" on #debian
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07:54-!-dvs is "realname" on #debian
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07:57-!-yohnnyjoe [~yohnnyjoe@c-73-129-2-10.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #debian
07:57-!-yohnnyjoe is "yohnnyjoe" on #debian
07:58-!-dvs [~Heubert@00012127.user.oftc.net] has joined #debian
07:58-!-dvs is "realname" on #debian
07:59<aversario>ethtool shows autonegotiation and full duplex, network manager quite the opposite -> http://picpaste.com/806f18d54a5e6f0b8608c54c77a885e9.jpeg http://picpaste.com/c390c161f86992b250e119019112ae9a.jpeg
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08:05-!-band is "band" on #oftc
08:05-!-band [~band@2a02:59e0:0:7::12] has joined #debian
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08:06-!-marian1 [~marian@p5B15A63B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #debian
08:06-!-marian1 is "marian" on #debian
08:07-!-Haudegen [~quassel@178.115.237.87] has joined #debian
08:07-!-Haudegen is "AP,,," on #debian #debian-next #debian-kde
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08:18-!-jipege2 [~quassel@170-135-190-109.isp.overthebox.ovh] has joined #debian
08:18-!-jipege2 is "zaza,,," on #debian #debian-publicity #debian-i18n #debian-www #debian-l10n-fr #debian-doc
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08:21-!-Oebele_ is "Oebele" on #debian #debian-next
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08:31-!-tremon [~aschuring@53541C2B.cm-6-5a.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #debian
08:31-!-tremon is "Arno Schuring" on #debian-mentors #debian
08:36-!-Ziberius [~dvasquez@pc-205-175-214-201.cm.vtr.net] has joined #debian
08:36-!-Ziberius is "Danilo Vasquez" on #debian-next #debian-kde #debian
08:37-!-juanito [~juanito@93.176.150.114] has joined #debian
08:37-!-juanito is "juanito" on #debian-kde #debian
08:37-!-juanito is now known as real007
08:42-!-Texou [~Texou@000178ec.user.oftc.net] has joined #debian
08:42-!-Texou is "Jean-Philippe MENGUAL" on #debian-welcome #debian-france #debian-mobile #debian-mozilla #debian-offtopic #debian-desktop #debian-multimedia #bitlbee #debian-community #debian-quebec #debian-gnome #debian-live #debian-voip #debian-qa #debian-next #debian-fr #debian #debian-es #debian-it #debian-devel-es #debian-devel-it #debian-mate #debian-l10n-fr #nvda #brltty #debian-a11y
08:45-!-gaetano [~gaetano@151.40.14.235] has joined #debian
08:45-!-gaetano is "Gaetano Guerriero" on #debian
08:55-!-lexruee [~lexruee@243.140.106.92.dynamic.wline.res.cust.swisscom.ch] has joined #debian
08:55-!-lexruee is "Alexander Rüedlinger" on #aptosid #siduction-dev #siduction-de #siduction-art #siduction #debian.de-offtopic #debian.ch #debian-offtopic #debian-gnome #debian
08:55<grawity>that's what it shows for a config profile
08:55<grawity>can you show that it's in fact the active profile?
08:56-!-Haudegen [~quassel@178.115.237.87] has joined #debian
08:56-!-Haudegen is "AP,,," on #debian-next #debian-kde #debian
09:00-!-csotelo [~csotelo@190.232.70.54] has joined #debian
09:00-!-csotelo is "realname" on #debian-es #debian
09:05-!-Blacker47 [~Blacker47@00014f22.user.oftc.net] has joined #debian
09:05-!-Blacker47 is "Blacker47" on #debian-next #debian
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09:15-!-Brigo is "realname" on #debian #debian-es #debian-next #debian-offtopic #debian-mentors #debian-localgroups
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09:24-!-philomath is "realname" on #debian-browserify #debian-mentors #debian
09:24-!-jplejacq [~jplejacq@24.224.107.176] has joined #debian
09:24-!-jplejacq is "Jean Pierre LeJacq" on #debian-kde #debian
09:25-!-kapitalist_ [~kapitalis@78-73-113-101-no162.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
09:26-!-kapitalist [~kapitalis@78-73-113-101-no162.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #debian
09:26-!-kapitalist is "realname" on #kernelnewbies #debian-offtopic #debian
09:29-!-lexruee [~lexruee@243.140.106.92.dynamic.wline.res.cust.swisscom.ch] has joined #debian
09:29-!-lexruee is "Alexander Rüedlinger" on #aptosid #siduction-dev #siduction-de #siduction-art #siduction #debian.de-offtopic #debian.ch #debian-offtopic #debian-gnome #debian
09:32-!-briner [~briner@217-162-196-50.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #debian
09:32-!-briner is "BRINER Cédric" on #debian #debian-fr
09:33-!-hele_ [~hele@a88-115-23-39.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #debian
09:33-!-hele_ is "hele" on #debian-next #debian-kde #debian
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09:33-!-vlad1777d is "realname" on #debian #debian-next #debian-cinnamon #debian-hurd
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09:42-!-futurist is "Futurist" on #debian
09:43-!-raf [~quassel@ip-81-11-145-77.dsl.scarlet.be] has joined #debian
09:43-!-raf is "Raf Pauwels" on #freedombox #debian
09:46-!-FilipUs0 [~FilipUs0@2.68.187.250.mobile.tre.se] has joined #debian
09:46-!-FilipUs0 is "realname" on #debian
09:46<FilipUs0>Hello?
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09:49-!-tsukiyomi [~none4@host209-144-dynamic.1-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #debian
09:49-!-tsukiyomi is "realname" on #debian #
09:49-!-tsukiyomi is now known as tsukuyomi
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09:52-!-hackinghorn [~hackingho@42.114.150.240] has joined #debian
09:52-!-hackinghorn is "Hi there, I am a student." on #debian ##debian
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09:56-!-philomath_ [~da_vinci@2405:205:158c:8a69:ae84:f245:1749:263b] has joined #debian
09:56-!-philomath_ is "realname" on #debian #debian-mentors #debian-browserify
09:56-!-andreasj [~andreasj@dyndsl-091-096-082-164.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has joined #debian
09:56-!-andreasj is "Andreas Janssen" on #debian-next #debian
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09:58-!-yohnnyjoe is "yohnnyjoe" on #debian
09:59-!-andreasj [~andreasj@dyndsl-091-096-082-164.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has joined #debian
09:59-!-andreasj is "Andreas Janssen" on #debian-next #debian
09:59-!-f10 [~flo@ip5b40034f.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de] has joined #debian
09:59-!-f10 is "f10" on #debian-kde #debian
10:00-!-Phi_mb [~da_vinci@2405:205:158c:8a69:ae84:f245:1749:263b] has joined #debian
10:00-!-Phi_mb is "realname" on #debian #debian-mentors #debian-browserify
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10:01-!-Phi_mb is "realname" on #debian #debian-mentors #debian-browserify
10:01-!-Phi_mb [~da_vinci@2405:205:158c:8a69:ae84:f245:1749:263b] has joined #debian
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10:01-!-Phi_mb [~da_vinci@2405:205:158c:8a69:ae84:f245:1749:263b] has joined #debian
10:01-!-Phi_mb is "realname" on #debian #debian-mentors #debian-browserify
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10:02-!-chomwitt [~chomwitt@2a02:587:dc04:7f00:7d43:6b7a:81f7:3ed] has joined #debian
10:02-!-chomwitt is "chomwitt" on #debian #debian-games
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10:05-!-dhanesh95 [~Dhanesh@117.195.30.98] has joined #debian
10:05-!-dhanesh95 is "realname" on #packaging #debian-mentors #debian-meeting #debian-offtopic #debian-welcome #debian-mozilla #debian-in #debian-desktop #debian
10:05-!-philomath_ [~da_vinci@2405:205:158c:8a69:ae84:f245:1749:263b] has joined #debian
10:05-!-philomath_ is "realname" on #debian #debian-mentors #debian-browserify
10:06-!-Phi_mb [~da_vinci@2405:205:158c:8a69:ae84:f245:1749:263b] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
10:06-!-yohnnyjoe [~yohnnyjoe@c-73-129-2-10.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
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10:08-!-philomath is "realname" on #debian #debian-mentors #debian-browserify
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10:13-!-Texou [~Texou@000178ec.user.oftc.net] has joined #debian
10:13-!-Texou is "Jean-Philippe MENGUAL" on #debian #debian-es #debian-it #debian-devel-es #debian-devel-it #debian-mate #debian-l10n-fr #nvda #brltty #debian-a11y
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10:15-!-adb [~ionmoldov@2a02:1205:34f9:1700:21f:a7ff:feb1:76f6] has joined #debian
10:15-!-adb is "e.paiuc" on #debian
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10:21-!-edeak is "realname" on #debian #suckless
10:22-!-salman-ta is "salman-ta" on #oftc
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11:30<jw>Hi everyone. What's the best way to connect to a enterprise wpa2 wifi?
11:31<jw>*via the command line
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11:36<sdk>jw: Personally a use nmcli + manually edit the connection file if I need it (like for a EAP connection).
11:37<jw>What package is that part of?
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11:39<sdk>jw: it's in the "network-manager" package
11:40<jw>Thanks
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11:42<musca>it also has nmtui
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11:48<sdk>musca: true. It's a cool curse-based interface. But sadly AFAIK, both nmcli and nmtui can't create a connection that need EAP.
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11:50<jw>Can't install it atm anyway
11:51<jw>any other ideas?
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11:52<tt>jw: there is information here, but I don't know how much of a PITA this would be https://wiki.debian.org/WiFi/HowToUse#WPA-EAP
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11:58<bremner>jw: you can use wpa-supplicant directly, afaik
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11:59<jw>I'll give that a go thanks
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12:01<pandy2>question:can debian8 be upgraded on line, i mean without downloading newer version ? thank you
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12:02<tt>yes, you need an internet connection
12:03<tt>pandy2: always read the release notes before upgrading. upgrade instructions are in there too. https://www.debian.org/releases/stretch/releasenotes
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12:05<pandy2>tt, thank you
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12:06<tt>pandy2: it's a pretty quick and painless process. but you gotta check the notes just in case.
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12:09<pandy2>tt,all my data is on usb, so i assume i'll be safe
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12:13<pandy2>question: how do i check my repositories?
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12:13<tt>which ones you have configured?
12:13<pandy2>for purpose of fast upgrade
12:13<tt>they're in /etc/apt/sources.list and /etc/apt/sources.list.d/*
12:13<pandy2>i do not remember
12:13<tt>oh. there's a package for that... netselect something
12:14<tt>netselect-apt
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12:17<pandy2>i got the list, ow do i check which are fastest?
12:18<tt>I think just hit 'next' or whatever?
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12:18<tt>I don't remember, but it's easy
12:18<pandy2>c ya later
12:18<pandy2>thanks
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12:27<pandy2>back with problem, please help
12:27<pandy2>Reading package lists... Done
12:27<pandy2>Building dependency tree
12:27<pandy2>Reading state information... Done
12:27<pandy2>Calculating upgrade... Done
12:27<pandy2>0 upgraded, 0 newly installed, 0 to remove and 0 not upgraded.
12:28<pandy2>what my problem?
12:28<tt>!paste
12:28<dpkg>Do not paste more than 2 lines to this channel. Instead, use: http://paste.debian.net/ http://pastie.org/ or http://picpaste.com/ for pics. Use wikisend.com for large files (think tar.gz) up to 100MB. Remember to tell us the URL of your paste! Cannot cut and paste? Ask me about <pastebinit>, <nopaste>, <wgetpaste>.
12:28<pandy2>what is the problem?
12:28<tt>either you're already done, or you didn't read the instructions and modify your sources.list
12:29<pandy2>tt, i did do anything withsources list
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12:30<pandy2>i men i did not touch sources list
12:31<tt>ugh, my appolgies; the instructions kind of suck
12:31<pandy2>no problem
12:31<tt>but basically, replace 'jessie' with 'stretch' in /etc/apt/sources.list
12:31<tt>and you should end up with something that looks like:
12:31<tt>!sources
12:31<dpkg>A suitable /etc/apt/sources.list for "Stretch" has three lines: "deb http://deb.debian.org/debian/ stretch main" "deb http://security.debian.org/debian-security stretch/updates main" "deb http://deb.debian.org/debian/ stretch-updates main". Be sure to run «apt update» after editing sources.list. Also see <deb-src> <contrib> <non-free> <stretch/updates> <stretch-updates> <mirrors> and "man sources.list".
12:31<pandy2>how do i do that?
12:32<tt>text editor :)
12:32<annadane>as root, type nano /etc/apt/sources.list
12:32<annadane>when you're done, control + x, y, enter, apt update
12:32<tt>you must always 'apt update' after modifying sources.list, for changes to be in effect
12:32<annadane>(apt update will not upgrade your system, but it updates the mirrors to match your sources list)
12:34<pandy2>annadane, i would have to be kamikaze to use nano ;-)
12:35<pandy2>tt, so i replace jessie with strech ? in text editor then save ?
12:35<tt>pandy2: yes, everywhere it occurs
12:35<tt>and check against the bot factoid above too ^^
12:36<annadane>well, whatever text editor you want *shrug*
12:36<annadane>i always just use nano to edit the sources list but it's entirely up to you
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12:36<tt>you may have 'contrib non-free' at the end of the lines, otherwise should be the same
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12:46<pandy2>i'm having trouble to save edited file,
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12:47<tt>you need root privileges to edit stuff in /etc
12:47<tt>guess we should have told you to run 'sudo nano' instead of 'nano'
12:48<tt>you can save it to like ~/sources.list and then 'sudo mv ~/sources.list /etc/apt/sources.list'
12:48<tt>or just start over, with sudo
12:51<pandy2>I never used nano before, so i will not know how edit in it
12:52<pandy2>instead of nano can use kate or write ?
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12:52<tt>yes, it just needs to be a *plain text* editor, not like a word processor
12:53<tt>kate will be fine
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12:55<pandy2>i'm root now, so it will look like this: kate /etc/apt/sources.list ?
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12:56<tt>yeah I guess
12:57<pandy2>cannot connect to X server :0
12:57<tt>'cause you're root
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12:58<tt>so, either do 1) 'sudo nano /etc/apt/sources.list'; nano is super easy to use, or 2) use kate as your normal user, but you'll have to save the file into your home directory, then use 'sudo mv …' from above
12:59<tt>it's in your best interests to figure out nano now, as it's very convenient for exactly this situation (to have a text-mode text-editor you can use)
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13:10<alexandre>Hello
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13:16<pandy2>tt, when i try to mv.. it refuses my password
13:17<tt>pandy2: do you not normally use sudo to gain root privs? You can use su instead, or whatever you normally do, then issue the mv command
13:18<tt>pandy2: the point is you need root to be able to write to /etc/apt/sources.list. sudo is a common way to make getting temporary root privs convenient, while you use your normal non-privileged user account for everything else.
13:18<pandy2>tt, already tryed, it also refuses my pass
13:19<tt>sudo asks for your user's password; su asks for the root password
13:20<tt>to give your user sudo privs, if you never have, you need to add yourself to the 'sudo' group... 1) login as root (or 'su - root' and enter root password), 2) do 'adduser yourusernamehere sudo' 3) logout and back in as your user (you must logout and back in to have the new group)
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13:22<pandy2>after sudo, it tells me i'm not in sudoers file
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13:22<tt>then you'd need to do that ^^
13:22<pandy2>su refuses my pass, root pass
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13:22<tt>I'm not sure why that would be, iirc debian doesn't require anything special to use su
13:26<pandy2>tt, added myself to sudoers, now i log out od system or only close console ?
13:26<tt>you need to log out of your session. unfortunately.
13:27<tt>you pick up your active groups at login time.
13:27<pandy2>ok, thanks, be back soon
13:27<tt>kk, good luck
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13:36<pandy2>hi again
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13:36<tt>wb.
13:36<pandy2>whats the command for patebin ? please
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13:37<tt>this is an easy one: http://termbin.com/
13:37<tt>instructions are on the site; you need to 'apt install netcat' to get the nc command
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13:40<pandy2>install netcat gave me this: Note, selecting 'netcat-traditional' instead of 'netcat'
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13:41<pandy2>netcat-traditional is already the newest version.
13:41<pandy2>0 upgraded, 0 newly installed, 0 to remove and 0 not upgraded.
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13:42<tt>that's fine
13:43<jelly>!pastebinit
13:43<dpkg>A command-line tool to send data to a <pastebin>. To paste e.g. your sources.list do "aptitude install pastebinit; pastebinit /etc/apt/sources.list"; to paste the output of a program do e.g. "dmesg | pastebinit". See also <pastebinit config>, <nopaste>.
13:44<tt>there's that too but I seem to always have the problem that its pastebin definitions are outdated
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13:46<tt>I guess the debian one always works though; I'll stop recommending termbin here.
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13:47<pandy2>Couldn't find any package whose name or description matched "pastebinit"
13:47<dpkg>i don't know, pandy2
13:47<tt>hrm... I was sure that was around in jessie... maybe you broke your sources.list ? :)
13:48<tt>you can still use termbin. are you trying to upload your sources.list for us to look at?
13:48<tt>if so, just 'cat /etc/apt/sources.list | nc termbin.com 9999'
13:49<jelly>pandy2: which debian release are you supposed to be running?
13:49<pandy2>http://termbin.com/hybn
13:50<pandy2>now i'm running: Linux debian 3.16.0-4-amd64 #1 SMP Debian 3.16.43-2+deb8u5 (2017-09-19) x86_64 GNU/Linux
13:51<pandy2>and it is kde
13:51<jelly>pandy2: and what does "lsb_release -sc" say
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13:51<tt>pandy2: that looks OK, except it's supposed to be "http://security.debian.org/debian-security" not "http://security.debian.org/", according to the bot
13:52<jelly>which bot?
13:52<tt>dpkg
13:52<jelly>when did that change
13:52<jelly>!stretch sources.list
13:52<dpkg>A suitable /etc/apt/sources.list for "Stretch" has three lines: "deb http://deb.debian.org/debian/ stretch main" "deb http://security.debian.org/debian-security stretch/updates main" "deb http://deb.debian.org/debian/ stretch-updates main". Be sure to run «apt update» after editing sources.list. Also see <deb-src> <contrib> <non-free> <stretch/updates> <stretch-updates> <mirrors> and "man sources.list".
13:52<jelly>in any case, both ought to work
13:52<tt>I dunno, it annoys me occassionally trying to find the definitive list of those
13:52<pandy2>jelly, i'm on jessie
13:53<tt>and trying to figure out why they're as inconsistent as they are
13:53<tt>I'm sure there's good reasons
13:53<pandy2>i guess i'm ready now to upgrade
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13:53<jelly>pandy2: did you read the release notes
13:53<tt>pandy2: looks like. check that 'apt update' completes without errors, and then continue w/ the instructions.
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13:58<pandy2>apt update gives me 1442 updates, i'm in shit now ;-)
13:59<pandy2>but i go for it
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14:00<pandy2>no go, dependency not met
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14:01<tt>you'll have to pastebin the error output for assistance.
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14:09<pandy2>http://termbin.com/kgcp
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14:12<pandy2>tt, i do not know what happened, i had my system up to date before starting this
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14:15<tt>hmm
14:16<tt>I can tell you what I would try, but you would need to be careful to not make it worse.
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14:18<pandy2>sure
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14:19<tt>well, first confirm you have no manual holds with 'apt-mark
14:19<pandy2>tt, i will not blame anyone but myself
14:19<tt>sorry, 'apt-make showhold'
14:19<pandy2>as sudo ?
14:19<tt>don't think it matters, but sure
14:20<tt>so, here's what I'm going to have you do, just **do not enter Y for Yes until you are 100% sure**
14:20<pandy2>command not found
14:21<tt>grr, apt-mark sory
14:21<tt>use 'sudo aptitude full-upgrade' instead of apt; aptitude will compute a possible solution, describe it to you (what it is proposing to upgrade, leave broken/unfulfilled, and/or uninstall)
14:21<tt>and ask if you want to accept it, or try again
14:22<tt>select 'n' to try again, until it shows you a reasonable solution (that like, only wants to remove 1 package you don't use, for example.)
14:22<tt>**I strongly recommend you pastebin the suggested solution so we can confirm it's reasonable, before you accept it.**
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14:32<pandy2>guven solution: http://termbin.com/t7ag
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14:33<tt>that doesn't look like a good one
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14:33<tt>ugh at all, no don't take that one
14:34<tt>if you say 'n' it will try again
14:34<pandy2>i alredy answer n few times and it does not change
14:34<tt>also: Do you have stuff installed (kde stuff maybe?) from outside of debian repos?
14:34<tt>like newer versions from a 3rd party maybe
14:34<pandy2>i'm not sure
14:35<pandy2>might be something for epson scanner, which does not work anyway
14:35<tt>any files in /etc/apt/sources.list.d/ ?
14:36<pandy2>that one is empty
14:37<tt>hrm...
14:37<pandy2>if i accept solution will it be bootable still?
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14:37<pandy2>thre is a 'q' option, what does that mean ?
14:38<tt>q is quit and give up
14:38<tt>which, is what I would do... that's def. not the clean solution you're looking for.
14:38<tt>usually the root problem is one or two old or broken packages, and aptitude can figure out which ones faster than you can manually investigate
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14:39<pandy2>well, if i screw then will do clean install of stretch
14:39<tt>would it be bootable... yes, but only to text mode I think
14:39<tt>if you do go that route, afterwards you can try using aptitude to re-install kde-standard
14:40<tt>it's something I might try, but I hesitate to tell you to, don't want you to get stuck
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14:40<tt>and also because there might be a much simpler way than I'm not thinking of right off, but someone else here might
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14:41<tt>it would also remove xchat, so you couldn't come back for help
14:41<tt>yeah... don't go that route just yet
14:42<tt>what happens if you try to do 'apt install libsmokebase3v5' ?
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14:44<pandy2>Could not get lock /var/lib/dpkg/lock - open (11: Resource temporarily unavailable)
14:44<pandy2>E: Unable to lock the administration directory (/var/lib/dpkg/), is another process using it?
14:44<tt>that means you're not root; use sudo
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14:45<pandy2>i have not quit upgrade atempt yet
14:45<tt>or something else is running an 'apt update'; if so just wait a moment and retry
14:45<tt>ah then yeah
14:45<tt>q out of that
14:45<tt>can you also pastebin me the output from aptitude, before the solutions?
14:46<pandy2>126 upgraded, 162 newly installed, 310 to remove and 1084 not upgraded.
14:46<pandy2>Need to get 224 MB of archives.
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14:50<tt>19:42 < tt> what happens if you try to do 'apt install libsmokebase3v5' ?
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14:52<tt>Does anyone else have suggestions for pandy2 wrt his conflicts on upgrade from jessie→stretch? http://termbin.com/kgcp http://termbin.com/t7ag
14:55<jelly>pandy2: quit that, don't let it run. Try to do just "apt-get upgrade" first and see if there's less issues. Before that, start screen or tmux, and run the upgrade inside that.
14:56<jelly>if you're inside KDE... things might break during upgrade, it's better to do it over ssh or in console, and log out of kde during the release upgrade process.
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14:57<jhutchin1_wk>pandy2: Have you posted your sources.list?
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14:57<tt>he did, it's http://termbin.com/hybn
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15:00<aversario>grawity: I think you were asking me, sorry for delay, here is another screenshot -> http://picpaste.com/ab0e7c5a343d1e3bc0dc1e374987eb43.jpeg
15:00<pandy2>jelly, apt-get upgrade gives this:759 upgraded, 0 newly installed, 0 to remove and 663 not upgraded.
15:00<pandy2>Need to get 376 MB of archives.
15:01<pandy2>looks like i'm good to go with it ?
15:01<tt>... don't the upgrade instructions in the release notes tell you to apt-get upgrade before apt-get dist-upgrade ?
15:01<jhutchin1_wk>If pandy2 has not yet executed any installs of stretch packages, I would switch the sources back to jessie and make sure jessie is fixed and up-to-date.
15:02<tt>before he started, he pasted output showing 0 updates
15:02<tt>so should be good on that
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15:03<jhutchin1_wk>pandy2: I would do a plain upgrade before you do a full/dist-upgrade.
15:04<jhutchin1_wk>pandy2: What you may end up with is a system without a working GUI, but you can then work on fixing that.
15:04<jhutchin1_wk>pandy2: You have something installed that's causing conflicts, it's not clear what it might be.
15:04<pandy2>can leave sources list with stretch in them ?
15:05<jhutchin1_wk>pandy2: Yeah, tt said you were up-to-date before you started.
15:06<tt>it sounds like the upgrade to kde5 is painful; he may end up w/ broken desktop even w/o apt conflict issues
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15:06<jhutchin1_wk>tt: It's not be cause he has "non-free contrib" instead of "contrib non-free" is it?
15:06<jelly>pandy2: yeah, that looks like a good first step
15:06<tt>nah
15:06<tt>order for those doesn't matter
15:06<jhutchin1_wk>I wouldn't think so.
15:07<jelly>pandy2: but do run the whole process inside screen or tmux. If you don't have either of them installed, go back to jessie sources and install screen.
15:08<tt>^^ this is good advice
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15:08<pandy2>too late, i'm doing it in console right now
15:09<tt>that accomplishes similar goals.
15:09<pandy2>now, what should i checj after this upgrade ?
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15:10<pandy2>jelly, i'm a 75 years old n00b, i never heard of screen or tmux ;-)
15:11<tt>oh man, that's so cool
15:12<pandy2>I APPRECIATE EVEYONES EEFOORT TO HELP ME !
15:12<Desu152Wc>So what's going on?
15:12<pandy2>upgrade still running
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15:12<cicada>hey
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15:13<Desu152Wc>So what's your problem pandy2?
15:13<tt>pandy2: after 'apt-get upgrade', you're gonna want to try 'apt-get dist-upgrade' again, which will likely give you the same result, but then if you try 'aptitude full-upgrade' it might have better luck finding a reasonable solution.
15:14<tt>pandy2: or, alternately, we need to look into what is specifically conflicting. that shouldn't be too hard, there aren't that many affected packages, but my dpkg-foo is a little rusty.
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15:14<pandy2>Desu152Wc, upgrade from jessie to stretch
15:15<Desu152Wc>Ah
15:15<Desu152Wc>Didn't know you could do that
15:15<pandy2>stay here, you'll learn ;-)
15:16<pandy2><Desu152Wc>, what you are running ?
15:16<Desu152Wc>Debian Stretch
15:17<pandy2>and how did you installed it?
15:17<Desu152Wc>Just from the ISO provided on the Debian site
15:17<Desu152Wc>I was running Ubuntu 16.04 before that
15:18<Desu152Wc>I actually came here to ask if there's any danger of having "main contrib non-free" at the end of my official Debian repositories in my sources.list
15:18<jhutchins_wk>desu152Wc: Buster isn't stable yet. We don't recommend running it as your primary desktop if you're not very familiar with troubleshooting package problems.
15:19<tt>Desu152Wc: no that's fine
15:19<jhutchins_wk>Desu152Wc: Those repos are pretty standard, most of us use them.
15:19<Desu152Wc>jhutchins_wk: Where did you get the idea that I was using Buster? I said I was using Stretch
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15:20<jelly>pandy2: "screen" command is basically a virtual terminal that can survive death of a session and be restored and accessed later
15:20<jhutchins_wk>Desu152Wc: Oh, I thought you were discussing upgrading.
15:20<jhutchins_wk>Desu152Wc: Lost my scrollbuffer tryig to fix my NIC.
15:21<tt>jhutchins_wk: hehe, no one is immune, eh?
15:21<jelly>pandy2: since you're on KDE, there's a rather high possibility things might go wrong during the release upgrade, running kde processed REALLY don't like libraries and binaries replaced under their feer
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15:21<jelly>feet*
15:22<jelly>so if you run apt under screen, it won't die halfway with KDE if KDE session dies.
15:22<Desu152Wc>Ah, I was also wondering if there's any true danger of using the buster repos while using Stretch, I have heard on multiple occasions that the stable/Stretch repositories are a bit *too* stable
15:22<jelly>like it died on my jessie->stretch at work
15:22<tt>Desu152Wc: you can't do *just* that, it'd be the same effect as replacing your stretch repos with buster ones
15:23<jelly>Desu152Wc: the true danger is you're inevitably going to pull in extra dependencies and then we're going to laugh
15:23<tt>the criticism that deb stable is way out-of-date was more valid in the past
15:23<jelly>when things break horribly
15:23<Desu152Wc>Wait
15:23<Desu152Wc>So I wasn't suppose to replace my stretch repos?
15:23<Desu152Wc>oops
15:23<jelly>only replace them if you're going completely buster side
15:24<Desu152Wc>jelly:What did you mean pull in extra dependencies?
15:24<tt>experienced users can get away with some limited mixing, but you have to be very comfortable sorting out the sorts of problems pandy2 is having
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15:24<tt>Desu152Wc: you now have a mixed system, some stuff from stable, but when you install new stuff it's going to come from buster
15:25<jelly>Desu152Wc: that applies to someone mixing stable and testing. > <Desu152Wc> Ah, I was also wondering if there's any true danger of using the buster repos while using Stretch,
15:25<tt>downgrading is much harder than upgrading.
15:25<Desu152Wc>But I've already upgraded my packages, wouldn't that make everything be buster
15:26<tt>probably.
15:26<Desu152Wc>So now that I have replaced my repos with Buster, should I add another copy with Stretch/
15:27<tt>the question is what is your intention. if you intend to be running Buster, then no. If you intend to be running Stretch, you have messed up.
15:27<somiaj>Desu152Wc: no, you don't want to mix buster and stretch. Use one or the other. Buster support is also in #debian-next.
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15:28<Desu152Wc>alright, well I want to continue to use Stretch but I have already upgrades by packages, is my system kill or should I just change the buster repos back to stretch
15:28<somiaj>There is no supported way to downgrade. To go back to stretch from buster, best to backup and reinstall
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15:28<jelly>Desu152Wc: there's no going back, at best you can switch to buster completely, with all the complications that testing has
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15:29<Desu152Wc>jelly: How hard is it to jump to Buster?
15:30<jelly>Desu152Wc: it's not hard, but it's testing. Things will break, and your job is to notice that and look for and file bug reports and fix them
15:30<jelly>dpkg, stretch->buster
15:30<dpkg>Well... buster doesn't even exist yet, but when it does, it's going to be a bumpy ride for a few months. Don't run Debian "testing" just after a release unless you like helping fix bugs. Testing is a pre-release distribution without timely security support; ask me about <moving target> <testing> <testing security>. If you feel you need instructions on how to upgrade, you should wait a while.
15:30<jelly>need to fix that.
15:31<jelly>dpkg, stretch->buster =~ s/Well... buster doesn't even exist yet, but when it does, it's going to be a bumpy ride for a few months. //
15:31<dpkg>jelly: OK
15:31<jelly>the "few months" have arguably passed
15:31<Desu152Wc>dpkg: Wait, so the Buster repos exist but the distro itself doesn't?
15:31<dpkg>wish i knew, Desu152Wc
15:31<Desu152Wc>Ah
15:31<Desu152Wc>Nevermind
15:31<tt>Desu152Wc: it has not been "released".
15:31<jelly>dpkg, stretch->buster
15:31<dpkg>Don't run Debian "testing" just after a release unless you like helping fix bugs. Testing is a pre-release distribution without timely security support; ask me about <moving target> <testing> <testing security>. If you feel you need instructions on how to upgrade, you should wait a while.
15:32<Desu152Wc>So is there a dedicated guide to moving to Buster or do I just have to ask you guys for help along the way
15:32<tt>it's just the normal upgrade procedure
15:32<tt>except there's no finished release notes to warn up about bumps in the road
15:32<tt>there are draft release notes probably
15:32<Desu152Wc>I've never upgraded before, I'm semi-new to Linux only starting at the beginning of this year
15:32<tt>like, in-progress ones
15:33<jelly>Desu152Wc: it's just "change repos from stretch to buster, apt update, (apt upgrade? maybe,) apt full-upgrade"
15:33<tt>upgrading is usually as simple as editing sources.list, apt-get update, apt-get upgrade, apt-get dist-upgrade
15:33<jelly>you'd be doing a release upgrade, but before the release is ready
15:33<Desu152Wc>Ah, so I'm already 3/4s of the way there
15:33<tt>yeah I don't usually do the upgrade in the middle, but I think it's recommended
15:33<jelly>!debian-next
15:33<dpkg>#debian-next is the channel for testing/unstable support on the OFTC network (irc.oftc.net), *not* on Freenode. If you get "Cannot join #debian-next (Channel is invite only)." it means you did not read it's on irc.oftc.net.
15:34<Desu152Wc>Alright, well thanks for the help guys
15:34<Desu152Wc>One last question before I move to #debian-next
15:34<Desu152Wc>Is there any difference between apt-get and apt? I usually just use apt as I like it's interface more than apt-get
15:35<tt>they're both valid to use day-to-day; which one you prefer would be the main thing that determines which to use.
15:35<jelly>apt is new and a bit nicer, and its syntax is still in flux
15:35<Desu152Wc>Alright, that's what I thought
15:36<Desu152Wc>Thanks <3
15:36<tt>sometimes for debian version upgrades it is recommended to specifically use apt-get (or in the past aptitude, or perhaps now/future apt)
15:36<jelly>apt-get and apt-cache cannot be changed too much because they're used in scripts
15:36<tt>which is the kind of thing you discover in the release notes
15:36<jelly>don't think there was a release upgrade that recommended aptitude
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15:37<tt>I'm fairly sure.
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15:39<aversario>grawity: I have to go now, I'll ask again tomorrow, thank you
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15:42<somiaj>there was an older release in which aptitude was suggested over apt-get, maybe squeeze or lenny, it was a while ago.
15:42<tt>jelly: well actually, I am pretty sure I was remembering this paragraph: https://www.debian.org/releases/jessie/amd64/release-notes/ch-upgrading.en.html#upgradingpackages
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15:44<jelly>if it was squeeze I must have disobeyed that
15:45*jelly looks at same URL except s/jessie/wheezy/; nope, s/wheezy/squeeze/; still nope ... ah. lenny
15:46<jelly>for etch->lenny I probably had a custom script
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15:58<pandy2>after 'sudo aptitude full-upgrade' solution pasted: http://termbin.com/sjit
15:59<tt>select 'n' for next
16:00<tt>the good news is, you did indeed get closer and I think I see the end in sight :)
16:00<pandy2>jelly,tt, can you check that file please, thanks
16:00<tt>pandy2: I did. **do not accept it** try the next one.
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16:03<pandy2>tt, next one gives 53 packages
16:03<pandy2>thats 3 more
16:04<tt>pandy2: 'n' for next again
16:05<pandy2>tt, 38 now
16:05<pandy2>37) xchat-common recommends xchat
16:05<pandy2>38) plasma-dataengines-workspace recommends ksysguardd (= 4:4.11.13-2)
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16:06*tt idly wonders wth it wants to remove xchat
16:06<pandy2>could that be installed later?
16:06<tt>pandy2: ok, 'q' to exit that; what does 'apt install libsmokebase3v5' say?
16:07<tt>sometimes temporarily removing things helps, but in this situation I don't think it will.
16:07<pandy2>76 upgraded, 163 newly installed, 310 to remove and 386 not upgraded.
16:07<pandy2>Need to get 178 MB of archives.
16:07<pandy2>Do you want to continue? [Y/n]
16:07<tt>ok, **do not** do that
16:07<tt>no
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16:08*annadane helpfully suggests aptitude
16:08<pandy2>aborted
16:08<pandy2>what next, please?
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16:09<tt>you know what.
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16:09<tt>xchat might be your problem.
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16:09<tt>it's not in stretch, was removed
16:09<pandy2>is there another application to replace it ?
16:10<tt>yeah lots
16:10<pandy2>hexchat ?
16:10<tt>although, I guess it can't be your whole problem since aptitude was willing to remove it and still had the other stuff
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16:10<tt>yeah that's a good one
16:11<pandy2>think about my problems please, buy do not break your sleep ;-)
16:11<pandy2>i'll be back later
16:11<tt>pandy2: if you're comfortable working from the text console for a bit, and switching away from xchat, you can indeed accept that aptitude solution you posted
16:11<tt>it might not even break your desktop but assume the worst I'm not 100% sure
16:12<tt>heh
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16:13<pandy2>tt, text console in text mode is quite different, no xchat there?
16:13<tt>yes, it's very different. no graphical apps at all.
16:14<annadane>irssi if you want text based, hexchat if you want a GUI
16:14<annadane>(graphical user interface)
16:14<pandy2>so this room could not be accessed?
16:15<tt>right
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16:15<tt>you'd have to use a text-mode irc client instead like irssi
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16:15<tt>I would not want you to break your graphics, and then not be able to get help either :/
16:16<annadane>if your system is totally borked you can access a virtual terminal using ctrl + alt + f1-f6 and install/use irssi to get support from irc
16:16<annadane>you'd just need to /server irc.oftc.net and /join #debian
16:16<tt>that solution is pretty solid though
16:16<pandy2>i'll try to accept solution, if broken will do clean install
16:16<tt>I think it's all stuff that was removed between jessie and stretch
16:16<tt>sounds good. sorry it was a bit of a hassle.
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16:17<tt>oh you'll also want to manually remove xchat-common and plasma-dataengines-workspace
16:17<pandy2>no problem, i had a good practice with cli
16:17<pandy2>see ya Gents later!
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16:18<tt>man I'm super rusty
16:18<tt>this is what happens if you take a year off computers, folks; don't let it happen to you!
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16:51*mnuhmnuh "annadane *helpfully* suggests aptitude"? mnuhmnuh helpfully suggests avoiding aptitude in favor of apt. aptitude may be good for some cases, but apt is better for most, imo. :-|
16:52<tt>mnuhmnuh: I must disagree completely.
16:53<tt>for one thing, aptitude will suggest multiple/imperfect dependency solutions, which was exactly the function we were looking for at that point, and not a feature available in apt or apt-get
16:54<tt>and I'm getting sick to death of people being like "why are you using {apt-get,aptitude}?! That's so out of date, apt is what you should use now!"
16:54<tt>because that is not the case.
16:55<ryouma>i am told apt is ng for scripts, perhaps because its cli is not settled. i only want to use whatever is recmomended for scripts also. so i will use apt-get. currently using aptitude.
16:56<tt>that's correct, apt is making no promises about maintaining compatibility, whereas apt-get tries to so it can be scriptable.
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16:56<mnuhmnuh>tt: since giving up on aptitude, in favor of apt/apt-get, i've suffered far fewer cases of "want to delete $blah? 340 other packages dependent on $blah will be removed. continue [Y/n]"
16:57<tt>apt is intended to be more human-friendly, so sure naturally it will be nice to use, but if apt-* or aptitude is better for a specific task than apt, you should use it instead of apt.
16:57<tt>mnuhmnuh: sigh. yes, because in any situation where aptitude asks you that, apt would just say "I give up; fix your broke stuff yourself."
16:57<ryouma>what makes it more friendly?
16:57<tt>ryouma: that's just the goal. whether it succeeds or not is a matter of subjective opinion :) I know it has pretty colors.
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16:57<ryouma>aptitude has almost never been that rude in my experience
16:58<ryouma>oh it's not cli?
16:58<tt>it is.
16:58<ryouma>so ansi then
16:59<ryouma>well tui would be too so nm
16:59<tt>which reminds me, in addition to apt, apt-get/apt-*, and aptitude, there's also synaptic (gui package manager) which is also fine to use if you want to.
17:00<mnuhmnuh>my system's have been far more manageable using apt than when i relied on aptitude. for me, using aptitude means one carriage return from reinstall, often.
17:01<tt>ryouma: I'll give you an example. When I want to search for a package, and I have no idea what it might be called (maybe I just know I want a PDF viewer), I'll do 'apt search pdf', because apt does a broad search and returns a lot of results.
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17:01<tt>ryouma: but when I know the package has 'netcat' in the name, I'll do 'aptitude search netcat', and have a much shorter list to look through.
17:01<tt>mnuhmnuh: Then you are doing it wrong.
17:01<tt>and you're spreading misinformation.
17:02<tt>you can also do a lot of advanced queries with aptitude. perhaps you can accomplish all or most of the same w/ other tools, but if you can I do not know how to.
17:04<mnuhmnuh>i still use aptitude for search, but not for managing software. you may be spreading misinfo too.
17:04<tt>well, I happen to know that I am not, and I am telling you I know for sure you are.
17:05<mnuhmnuh>"my system's have been far more manageable using apt than when i relied on aptitude."
17:05<tt>!aptitude
17:05<dpkg>i guess aptitude is a terminal-based package manager that can be used in a command-line mode (aptitude install foo ; aptitude remove goo) as well as a text user interface mode (just run "aptitude"). Ask me about <why aptitude> <why not aptitude> <aptitude-fu> <aptitude docs> or see http://wiki.debian.org/Aptitude or http://tinyurl.com/3g4d4d9.
17:05<tt>!why aptitude
17:05<dpkg>aptitude has more advanced conflict/dependency resolution and will often find a solution where apt-get gives up. It can be used from the command line like apt-get plus an interactive resolver makes it much easier to recover from broken dependencies. It has advanced search capabilities (see <aptitude search>). For some upgrades, apt-get is preferred (e.g. <lenny->squeeze>, <squeeze->wheezy>). http://tinyurl.com/3g4d4d9.
17:05<tt>!why not aptitude
17:05<dpkg>Aptitude is more memory intensive and slower than <apt-get>, the <ncurses> interface is always loaded regardless of being used or not. Moreover the resolver can sometimes produce unexpected results and most of <aptitude>'s former exclusive features are now available in <apt-get> as well. Ask me about <why aptitude> and see http://tinyurl.com/3g4d4d9.
17:06<ryouma>which is confusing for many users i think
17:06<tt>ryouma: what is confusing?
17:06<ryouma>debian has a legacy problem. if featuers are now available, does that include the resolver?
17:06<ryouma>e.g.
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17:07<tt>that there are multiple front-ends to manage software? yeah, that does seem to make people question which are supported. the answer is all of them, though; I don't know why people feel the need to decide they're not, and then spread it like it's a factl.
17:08<tt>ryouma: apt-get's resolver, which was never terrible, has improved. but afaik, the multiple-solutions-offerring and advanced query features are still unique to aptitude.
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17:08<tt>aptitude used to do additional exclusive stuff, like marking dependencies as auto-installed, that apt/apt-get now do. so I assume it's talking about those features.
17:08<mnuhmnuh>my systems got broken far more often by aptitude than by my clueless ineptitude. i've been at this since '93, debian since ca. '96. apt/apt-get never caused breakage. aptitude, often.
17:09<tt>mnuhmnuh: answering "Yes" to "Do you want to uninstall 300 packages, including all these critical basic system tools?" is ineptitude.
17:09<ryouma>tt: when you say now, do you mean jessie and stretch?
17:09<tt>don't take that as an insult; we were all there once. but, it nonetheless is.
17:10<ryouma>can we tone it down here?
17:10<mnuhmnuh>tt: you can't think i ever said yes to such a boneheaded q.
17:10<tt>and I can grant you, that one specific point, that aptitude will offer to do things you don't want, and expect you to know if you do or not. and so from that perspective, it makes sense not to point new users directly at aptitude over apt. but I also wasn't advocating aptitude over apt, just saying either is fine to use.
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17:11*annadane helpfully suggests #debian-offtopic
17:11<tt>annadane: how is this off-topic?
17:11<tt>ryouma: I beleive apt-get picked up the mark-auto feature as of Jessie, but I am not 100% certain.
17:12<tt>for a while there, apt-get and aptitude used different databases for remembering auto-installed packages
17:12<ryouma>so aptitude no longer has information kept in a db that apt-get does not have access to?
17:12<tt>so if you didn't use the same command all the time for installs, you'd have a bad time
17:12<mnuhmnuh>annadane: i agree. it's more meta/philosophical than relevant to #debian.
17:12<tt>ryouma: correct, that is no longer the case.
17:12<ryouma>but it is unclear for jessie
17:13<tt>ryouma: I'm not 100% certain if that was all cleared up by jessie or not.
17:13<tt>I can try to find out, if you want to know.
17:13<ryouma>not critical
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17:15<tt>mnuhmnuh: if you didn't, then how are you saying aptitude broke your system?
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17:18<mnuhmnuh>tt: my theory (i'm sorry i keep having to go here, but ...) aptitude may be what win* & apple users new to debian need to make linux usable for them from their point of view. it's not the *right/correct* way, from a *nix/UX/Linux point of view.
17:19<tt>no sir, as much as I'd like to let this drop, that is wildly inaccurate anti-aptitude misinformation.
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17:20<mnuhmnuh>tt: it threatened to break my system. i didn't let it.
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17:22<mnuhmnuh>tt: i suggest you test it. run a couple of systems for a couple of months, one of them updated by each. report back.
17:22<tt>I have been running many Debian systems, for over 15 years ... ...
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17:22<computing-land>hi?
17:22<annadane>to be honest maybe suggesting aptitude for a stable system was a bit much
17:22<annadane>computing-land, hi
17:22<tt>mnuhmnuh: The nicest way I can put this is you do not know what you're talking about, and should refrain from giving advice until you do.
17:23<computing-land>I have some problem related to backports kernel upgrade, is it the right place ?
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17:23<annadane>computing-land, yep
17:23<computing-land>yesterday I tried to update my booting squashfs file, and I realised that
17:23<computing-land>if I do a dist-upgrade to linux 4.13.13 from the stretch-backports section
17:24<computing-land>it draws apparmor in the mix and after it's set up
17:24<computing-land>thunderbird doesn't start anymore
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17:24<computing-land>it pretends that a zombie instance is in RAM where it's untrue
17:24<computing-land>if I mark linux-* packages and do a full upgrade of the rest, everything is ok
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17:25<computing-land>what could possibly be done by apparmor installation that would prevent thunderbird from starting?
17:25<computing-land>or is it a kernel problem in 4.13.13 version?
17:25<computing-land>I'm a little bit confused ^^
17:25<mnuhmnuh>annadane: i used aptitude (to manage my systems' software) for more than a decade. since reverting to apt/apt-get, i've suffered few probs., far less than during my aptitude era.
17:26<tt>apparmor is new in debian kernels, and there was a bug about it not actually being a non-op/inert-component as intended, but I thought it got resolved.
17:26<mnuhmnuh>tt: bite me. :-)
17:26<computing-land>I'm confortable with low-level dealing of the many APT subcommands, it's just that
17:27<computing-land>I decided to mark the linux packages meanwhile but I just wanted to know
17:27<computing-land>if that's a temporary issue like you said
17:27-!-jstein [~quassel@xdsl-78-34-130-161.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:27<computing-land>(like apparmor messing around with the newest kernels backports)
17:27<computing-land>or something else known by the maintainers
17:28<computing-land>it's the first time I had some kind of problem with a backported kernel
17:28<tt>computing-land: are you trying to upgrade everything to backports versions?
17:29<computing-land>nope: I backport the kernel, libreoffice, dmidecode, and a few small packages without lots of dependencies, I really think about what's worth to backport
17:29<tt>ok
17:29<tt>good, just making sure.
17:29<computing-land>firefox is ok, but thunderbird won't start
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17:29<computing-land>even if I fire the profile manager to create a new one
17:29<tt>do you actually have the apparmor- packages installed?
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17:30<computing-land>with my linux 4.13.4 squashfs system, no ; but if I install the latest linux 4.13.13, it draws apparmor in the dependencies
17:31<tt>gotcha... man this sounds like that bug, let me find it
17:31<computing-land>so I'm only GUESSING that the problem comes from the apparmor installation
17:31<tt>I don't actually use or know anything about apparmor tho (disclaimer)
17:31<tt>oh.
17:31<computing-land>but I'm not sure at all ^^
17:31<computing-land>me neither :P
17:31<tt>looked in the logs? tried starting thunderbird from an xterm?
17:32<computing-land>yeah but the exception comes in a messagebox, not in a terminal
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17:32<computing-land>unless there's a dedicated log file I don't know about :/
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17:33<tt>so there's an error message? what does it say?
17:33<computing-land>it pretends that "an instance is already running" or something, must be a bas exception catch cause
17:33<computing-land>there is absolutely no thunderbird process going on
17:34<computing-land>tried to grep ps -A and other stuff but
17:34<computing-land>even after rebooting
17:34<computing-land>trying to launch it crashes and still pretends an instance is already running
17:34<computing-land>when it's clearly impossible
17:34<computing-land>so the error message is completely useless there
17:35<mnuhmnuh>computing-land: could be leaving cookie files lying around after crashing.
17:35<tt>is there a file 'lock' in your thunderbird profile directory (which I think is ~/.mozilla-thunderbird<Profile name>) ?
17:35<computing-land>nope. I tried to destroy the whole profile and create a new one to inject my stuff back in it
17:36<computing-land>even with a virgin profile, still pretends there's a zombie instance
17:36<mnuhmnuh>ick.
17:36<computing-land>yeah it's really nasty, I don't go often on IRC to cry for help ^^
17:36<computing-land>unless I spend a few days wondering :D
17:37<computing-land>*wandering
17:37<computing-land>oops, not sure
17:37<computing-land>(not an english native speaker here)
17:38<computing-land>anyway it was more out of curiosity
17:38<computing-land>I'm keeping the linux upgrades on hold for now
17:38<mnuhmnuh>computing-land: tried rm &reinstall tbird?
17:38<computing-land>I'll have another branch of squashfs files besides
17:38<computing-land>hmmm
17:38<computing-land>if I boot back my other squashfs files with the same thunderbird versions, everything is fine
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17:38<tt>computing-land: well, apparmor denies should be logged (where, I dunno anymore, but one of journalctl, dmesg, or /var/log/audit.log)
17:38<computing-land>so I really don't think that the thunderbird binaries are to blame
17:39<computing-land>(no thunderbird upgrade was involved)
17:39<computing-land>oh you think apparmor logs could give valuable info?
17:40<computing-land>maybe it's just a stupid permission mode away from working because of apparmor, yeah
17:40<tt>well, yes if apparmor is your issue I'd expect to see denials in the log; their absence would mean your apparmor guess was a red herring
17:41<computing-land>it was just a guess because I saw this package name, but I didn't think about that because
17:41<computing-land>since I never messed with apparmor for now, I didn't even know it was a service
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17:41<computing-land>like verbose, log-wise
17:41<tt>it's not a terrible guess.. it'd be super weird otherwise for swapping only the kernel to break one specific program in that way
17:42<tt>but you need to confirm it before spending time trying to correct it
17:42<computing-land>I'm sure, I boot all my system images to ram
17:42<tt>confirm that it's the problem, I mean :)
17:42<computing-land>so every time I reboot I'm in the configuration I choose from a standalone grub
17:43<computing-land>so every squashfs file I do, I know what the configuration is
17:43<computing-land>so I mess around in RAM, but after a reboot I go back
17:43<computing-land>it saves a LOT of time, not having to restore ghosts :P
17:43<tt>it generates denial messages very similarly to selinux
17:43<tt>like I said, dunno where they go, but it'll be one of thsoe 3 places
17:43<computing-land>yeah selinux and apparmor are on my todo list of things to learn
17:44<computing-land>but I never did
17:44<computing-land>I guess it's the occasion :)
17:44<computing-land>anyway, it's a minor issue
17:45<computing-land>life with backports and cherry-pick is way easier than sid :D
17:46<computing-land>thanks for the advice, cause my internet search was useless
17:46<computing-land>I'll try to find out about those logs
17:46<computing-land>but for now I have some Sphinx LaTeX tuning to document
17:46<tt>anyway, if that really is the problem, you just gotta figure out the right way to turn apparmor off
17:47<computing-land>oh like shutting down the service even if it's installed?
17:47<tt>still haven't found the bug I was thinking of, but there seem to be a bunch around apparmor and 4.14
17:48<tt>I don't think that's the right way, but I don't know what is either.
17:48<computing-land>oh?
17:48<tt>one of either removing it from the kernel command line, or removing the policy, I suspect. but haven't been able to confirm that via documentation.
17:49<computing-land>ok, stuff is moving
17:49<tt>does rather seem like it.
17:49<computing-land>I'm surprised I didn't land on the arch wiki during my internet searches ^^
17:49<computing-land>usually they are solid nerds about recent stuff!
17:51<tt>aha. passing "security=" on kernel command line should be sufficient to disable app armor
17:51<tt>heh yeah, I've never used arch but I use their documentation quite a lot.
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17:54<computing-land>ah ah, simple as a toram=filesystem.squashfs :)
17:54<tt>22:18 < mnuhmnuh> tt: my theory (i'm sorry i keep having to go here, but ...) aptitude may be what win* & apple users new to debian need to make linux usable for them from their point of view. it's not the *right/correct* way, from a *nix/UX/Linux point of view.
17:54<tt>whoops sorry mis-paste
17:55<computing-land>yep, recently an article of them about gpg was useful to me
17:55<computing-land>with debian stretch, gpg is in version 2
17:55<computing-land>and it renders almost all the internet tutorials obsolete!
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17:57<tt>AHA. #880441
17:57<judd>Bug http://bugs.debian.org/880441 in src:linux (closed): «linux-image-4.13.0-1-amd64: silently enabled AppArmor breaks other programs»; severity: serious; opened: 2017-10-31; last modified: 2017-11-16.
17:57<tt>claims to be fixed, but may point you in a useful direction regardless.
17:57<computing-land>lol
17:57<computing-land>yeah I had those problems 2 or 3 days ago, so
17:58<computing-land>I'm gona read the thread to see what they talk about
17:58<tt>e.g., perhaps only fixed in sid not backports :)
17:58<tt>or something.
17:58<tt>good luck.
17:58<computing-land>I never found something thegodlikehobo at close to the issue :)
17:58<computing-land>something THAT CLOSE to the issue
17:58<computing-land>yup, thanks
17:58<computing-land>and good night
17:59<tt>#879584 and #879585 sounded possibly relevant, but I don't understand the issues they're discussing
17:59<judd>Bug http://bugs.debian.org/879584 in apparmor (closed): «apparmor: Pin the AppArmor feature set to Linux 4.12's or 4.13's until our policy has been updated for Linux 4.14»; severity: important; opened: 2017-10-23; last modified: 2017-11-22.
17:59<computing-land>lol
17:59<computing-land>yesterday I decided to mark linux-image-4.13 and wait for 4.14 to retry
17:59<tt>but yeah, if anything like that is your problem, disabling apparmor should be easy enough.
18:00<computing-land>I'll read about the issue anyway
18:00<computing-land>it must be interesting
18:00<computing-land>thanks for the links
18:00<tt>np
18:00*mnuhmnuh tt: good catch. :-) #880441
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18:01<tt>it's really weird luck that I was reading that for some reason the other day
18:01<tt>considering it does not affect me
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18:01<computing-land>oh really?
18:01<tt>yeah. don't remember why I was.
18:02<computing-land>BTW, do you have for another weird issue
18:02<computing-land>I'm about to give up on this one
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18:02<computing-land>* have TIME?
18:03<tt>o'course. but in general, just ask; if anyone can help, they will.
18:03<tt>sometimes helpful responses come much later.
18:03<computing-land>ok
18:03<computing-land>since I discovered squashfs booting, I've been playing with it a lot lately
18:03<computing-land>and I stumbled upon a problem at work
18:04<computing-land>since we work on an isolated network and use local mirrors for software packages
18:04<computing-land>they didn't order us for now to migrate to stretch
18:04<computing-land>and all the developers on the private network still use jessie
18:05<computing-land>to have the same environment on their laptops as preprod and prod systems
18:05<computing-land>except we recently received some niceass recent laptops for them
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18:05<computing-land>problem is that for now, we would still like to use them with jessie
18:05<computing-land>(waiting for the green light to use stretch on the private network)
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18:06<tt>ok, I follow you so far
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18:06<computing-land>so I wanted to take a working live jessie with nonfree package iso file
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18:06<computing-land>extract the squashfs from it, uncompress it
18:07<computing-land>migrate it through chroot to a recent backported kernel and recent gpu drivers
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18:07<computing-land>except
18:07<computing-land>(same KIND of problem in the end)
18:07<computing-land>after the kernel upgrade, the boot fails
18:08<computing-land>I realized that kernel 3.16 uses aufs for union, where 4.x branch uses overlayfs for union of filesystems
18:08<computing-land>I tried to upgrade live-boot and live-boot-update-initramfs packages to backported version
18:08<computing-land>but the boot still fails
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18:09<tt>"boot fails" is too vague; error messages almost certainly relevant.
18:09<tt>but, I don't have any experience w/ squashfs or customizing live builds
18:09<tt>so no clues, at least from me
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18:10<computing-land>yes, sorry, the message was that the arguments give to overlayfs were incorrect
18:10<computing-land>which made sense at first
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18:10<computing-land>because it was aufs arguments given to the newer overlayfs kernel module
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18:11<computing-land>but even if I upgrade to the backported versions of live-boot-* packages, the message remains the same, except that it should be something else
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18:11<computing-land>which doesn't seem to be the case from what I've read when I was looking on the web
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18:11<computing-land>they say recent version of live-boot handle properly overlayfs
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18:12<computing-land>oh sorry, the context is not super different from regular boot
18:12<pandy2>greetings!
18:12<computing-land>squashfs is just a different storage optimized for read-only speed, nothing particular
18:12<computing-land>and live-boot just changes the init script to something else
18:12<computing-land>and you have to use another command for update-initramfs
18:13<computing-land>I think that's all
18:13<pandy2>problem: accidentally broke the Apper
18:13<computing-land>I tried in the other direction
18:14<computing-land>started from an installed system
18:14<computing-land>upgraded all the video drivers
18:14<computing-land>still no hardware acceleration
18:14<pandy2>when i open Apper the window is blank, only visible default button, but does nothing when clicked
18:14<computing-land>and everytime I upgrade the kernel from the backports, I have a black screen without any message
18:14<computing-land>so regular boot with black screen
18:14<computing-land>or live-boot with obsolete error message
18:15<computing-land>I'm really lost on that one !!!
18:16<pandy2>q
18:17<pandy2>exit
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18:18<tt>computing-land: does #844749 sound relevant?
18:18<judd>Bug http://bugs.debian.org/844749 in live-build (open): «live-build: Jessie image with backported kernel (linux-image-4.7.0-0.bpo.1-amd64) doesn't boot»; severity: important; opened: 2016-11-18; last modified: 2017-02-09.
18:19<tt>pandy2: did the upgrade otherwise go smoothly? is everything fully upgraded now?
18:20<pandy2>tt, nice to see ya again, will you help more please? thank you
18:20<tt>I have to go shortly.
18:20<pandy2>upgrade screw my Apper
18:20<computing-land>@judd: no I saw this one, it's centered on the live-build tool from scratch, I only wanted to upgrade the official image
18:20<computing-land>(I never managed to make live-build work from scratch on a local network)
18:20<pandy2>i rebooted to the same machine i think
18:21<computing-land>(there are some hardcoded stuff that try to reach for the internet)
18:21<computing-land>(even if you try to use a local mirror)
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18:23<aidalgol>How do I specify dconf answers when running apt-get non-interactively?
18:23<tt>computing-land: no clues. you might do better in a channel or on a list specific to debian-live
18:24<computing-land>ok, thank you guys, have a good night
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18:24<tt>aidalgol: you mean debconf
18:25<tt>pandy2: I gotta run, likely someone will help you verify your install is complete. And maybe fix Apper. Good luck!
18:25<pandy2>tt, ok, no problem, take care
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18:26<tt>aidalgol: https://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/106552/apt-get-install-without-debconf-prompt
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18:37<pandy2>need a help with upgrade
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18:39<b17>pandy2, i don't use apper. have you tried fixing things from apt in a terminal?
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18:42<pandy2>b17, i just wanted to use apper to instal hexchat and find a chat app for console when booting in text mode? does it make sense?
18:43<tt>pandy2: use apt from the command-line for that, instead.
18:43<tt>e.g., 'apt-get install hexchat'
18:44<somiaj>or just apt install hexchat
18:44<tt>I blame muscle memory :) but whichever.
18:45<somiaj>I'm only barely getting myself to default to apt when I give support, I still type apt-get
18:45<b17>apt search is really helpful also, or apt show
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18:46<tt>somiaj: I wouldn't care if people would stop trying to correct me everywhere :)
18:46<tt>(not you, but it comes up constantly for me these days.)
18:48<somiaj>It was more to let pandy2 know they can just type apt as the end user, vs correcting you.
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19:05<tt>right, no, I got that :)
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19:22<ivar>hi
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19:25<ivar>whats the topic
19:25<somiaj>this is a support channel for the debian operating system.
19:26<ivar>svenska förbjudet eller?
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19:27<ivar>sparkylinux ok?
19:27<somiaj>nope
19:27<somiaj>!sparky linux
19:27<dpkg>SparkyLinux is a Linux distribution based on <testing>. It is not supported in #debian or #debian-next. http://sparkylinux.org/ See also <based on debian>.
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21:16<bralto>In my debian live image I always had three nvidia drivers installed, with live-boot I can then choose to boot with nouveau or nvidia, for nvidia the correct driver was automatically loaded (current, legacy340 and legacy304). For some months now, this has been broken. anyone know how to workaround this?
21:16<bralto>in syslog I find that the kernel module of the 340 is first loaded (when booting on a nvidia-current system) and gives a mismatch
21:16<bralto>later on, with lsmod I can only find nvidia and nouveau loaded, no idea how nouvea van be loaded through this
21:16<bralto>when I only install nvidia-current at build, everything works fine
21:16<bralto>the bug is present in stretch, buster and sid
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21:41<ozzy>Yo
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---Logclosed Sun Dec 03 00:00:49 2017