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#debian IRC Logs for 2018-09-14

---Logopened Fri Sep 14 00:00:49 2018
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02:32-!-Haudegen is "AP,,," on #debian #debian-mozilla #security #debian-desktop #debian-next #debian-kde #debian.or.at
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02:36-!-jmux is "Jan-Marek Glogowski" on #debian
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03:34-!-iderik is "idk" on #suckless #qtile #debian-games #debian
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04:00-!-alephnull_ is "Alok G Singh" on #debian-next #moocows #bitlbee
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04:15-!-m42 is "Pedro Ribeiro" on #debian #debian-i18n
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04:29-!-Ganneff is "Joerg Jaspert" on #debian-lists #oftc-status #spi #debian-mia #debconf-nyc #debian-dak #debconf15-germany #meetbot @#german @#lugfd @#gph.tw @#wed-fd @#nsb2 @#debian-ch @#backuphackers #debconf15-de #debian-forums @#debian-forums-teams
04:29-!-Hunger is "EG0" on #zcash-mining #php #infoanarchy #joemberek #colinux #cell #xen #uml #perl #lvm #OpenBSD #bits @#hardenix
04:29-!-jhr is "Jan Hauke Rahm" on #debian #debian-devel-changes #debian-perl #debian-meeting #debian-voip #neurodebian #vcs-pkg @#pkg-zsh
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05:41-!-foka is "Anthony Fok" on #lxde #emdebian #dot #debian-zh #debian-soc #debian-ruby #debian-reproducible #debian-olpc #debian-live #debian-js #debian-i18n #debian-glibc #debian #debian-fonts #debian-eeepc #debian-edu #debian-devel-changes
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09:20-!-rain1 is "rain1" on #debian
09:25<rain1>hi
09:26<rain1>ive installed the old version debian 3.0 in qemu and i can't get networking to work. lspci shows ethernet controller intel corp unknown device but ifconfig does not show an eth0 interface
09:27<rain1>i want to be able to ssh into it, any ideas?
09:31<Anarka>rain1: are you using virtio device ?
09:32<arto>rain: was that a typo, debin 3.0? Current stabel is 9.5
09:33<arto>i did a lot ot typos myself :)
09:33<Anarka>he did say old version :)
09:34<arto>it really is old version, I started from 3.0, woody
09:35<arto>and it's been a few years from that, I think it was 2003 EOL for woody
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09:35-!-KellerFuchs is "KellerFuchs" on #debian #powerdns-dev
09:36<arto>rain: I think networking would be easier if you try newer Debian
09:36<KellerFuchs>Ohai. Quick question (redirected from #debian-devel): is there a way to syntax-check a source.list file before putting it in /etc/apt ?
09:36<arto>KellerFuchs: just run apt update, it will not if there is any error
09:36<arto>note
09:37<KellerFuchs>arto: Yes, but it's in an automated (Ansible) script, and I would rather not leave the apt config in a broken state
09:37<KellerFuchs>(but yes, I run apt update right afterwards anyhow)
09:37<rain1>I am not using virtio, but I can try to enable it
09:37<arto>KellerFuchs: I don't know other syntax checkers
09:37<KellerFuchs>OK, thanks anyhow
09:38<arto>KellerFuchs: run once, check it, if it works, you can leave it as it is
09:40<KellerFuchs>arto: Yes, but if it's not, putting back the previous one is annoying (because I need to copy it somewhere else in advance, then cleanup, ... all by hand, whereas there is support for the common “syntax check before rename” idiom)
09:41<arto>KellerFuchs: It does not matter where you test it, if it's Debian, it will work in other Debians too
09:42<arto>KellerFuchs: that's the best advice I can give
09:42<KellerFuchs>I don't think you got what I was saying, but that's fine.
09:42<Anarka>you can also use /etc/apt/sources.list.d/file.list
09:42*KellerFuchs just won't syntax check
09:42<KellerFuchs>Anarka: We do use that too, for third-party repos (and /etc/apt/trusted.gpg.d)
09:43<arto>KellerFuchs: and I don't think you get what I say, something common, why would you need 3rd party syntax checker if apt does it
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09:47<KellerFuchs>arto: Because apt does not support (as far as I can tell? a CLI option for apt was what I was hoping existed) checking the syntax before overwriting the existing config
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09:49<arto>KellerFuchs: I newer used other than apt (or apt-get) that does not have a gui version
09:50<arto>KellerFuchs: I'm repeating myself, but still think all you need is 'apt update'
09:51<KellerFuchs>Yes, I know what apt update does, thank you very much.
09:51<arto>KellerFuchs: and I would bet it does not write anything to any file, perhaps /var/smth
09:52<KellerFuchs>arto: So let me rephrase my question: I have some contents that I want to write to sources.list; is there a way to make apt syntax-check it before writing it to the file?
09:53<arto>KellerFuchs: no
09:53<arto>KellerFuchs: or aptitude has simulate, -s if I remember right
09:54<KellerFuchs>apt(8) also has --dry-run, but I'm not sure that helps
09:54<arto>KellerFuchs: but they both user /etc/apt/sources.list or .d
09:54<arto>KellerFuchs: that propably is the same than aptitude's -s
09:55<KellerFuchs>Yes, I'm aware.
09:55<arto>KellerFuchs: so where is the problem?
09:55<KellerFuchs>Anyhow, I will look into whether I can hack something together later, thanks anyhow.
09:55<arto>KellerFuchs: you are welcome, if it did anything good
09:57<arto>apt or aptitude will not overwrite anything
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09:58<KellerFuchs>arto: Yes, and I never claimed they did.
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10:00<themill>I wonder if apt-config would
10:01<itd>maybe something with python-apt https://salsa.debian.org/apt-team/python-apt/blob/master/aptsources/sourceslist.py#L153
10:02<themill>istr something for the .822 style files
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11:21<char0>802.1x on wired ethernet stopped working in unstable within the last month or so. I do not know how to figure out what package to submit a bug against.
11:23<arto>!debian-next
11:23<dpkg>#debian-next is the channel for testing/unstable support on the OFTC network (irc.oftc.net), *not* on freenode. If you get "Cannot join #debian-next (Channel is invite only)." it means you did not read it's on irc.oftc.net.
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12:22<rain1>I'm trying to use old debian 3.0 and get networking. -netdev user,id=n0 -device rtl8139,netdev=n0 shows up in lspci nicely but i'm not able to load the driver for it with modprobe
12:23<rain1>this is the error I get https://i.imgur.com/dJDQLRQ.png
12:23<rain1>am i trying to load it wrong? Is there some other way I should enable networking
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12:32<arto>rain1: I said it already, but if there really is no particular reason to use 3.0, I's suggest you use newer. It is so old, that has tons of securitu flaws, and would not connect it to net anyway.
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13:01<Blacker47>rain1, if debian 3.0 has no support for the specific hardware then the hardware will not work.
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13:15<peter1138>Yeah but 8139 is pretty old and generic and should work fine.
13:15<peter1138>OTOH, as it's virtual there might be something not quite right.
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13:54<mnuhmnuh>eol 30 jun. 2006. it's dead jim. https://www.debian.org/News/2006/20060601 - that's more than a decade, and computing ages far faster than dogs do.
13:54<mnuhmnuh>you're stirring entrails.
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14:03<arto>Hi mnuhmnuh! To yestardays Synthea's bash directory finding, I tought smth like this: or i in *;do if [ -d $i ]; then echo $i;fi;done
14:03<arto>oops, for i in *;do....
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14:04<arto>academic still
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14:13<rain1>https://wiki.debian.org/jigdo im trying to use jigdo to download debian 3.1 https://cdimage.debian.org/mirror/cdimage/archive/3.1_r8/i386/jigdo-cd/ but I get lots of 404s. Is there a specific mirror that I should use to get the old deb packages?
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14:14<arto>rain: but why old? It is not any harder to get current one.
14:15<arto>rain: and jidgo is like torrent, it would require many users downloading 3.1, I think you are the only
14:16<sqrt{not}>rain1: and why run in a VM ? try a modern debian-live image on bare metal (if you have a USB port or a DVD reader): https://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/unofficial/non-free/cd-including-firmware/current-live
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14:18<bremner>!snapshot
14:18<dpkg>http://snapshot.debian.org/ is an archive of almost all Debian packages uploaded since 2005, including those removed from the official archives because they were very buggy, unusable, broken, vulnerable or in some way non-free. This service replaces snapshot.debian.net. http://www.debian.org/News/2010/20100412
14:19<bremner>!archive
14:19<dpkg>i guess archive is a collection of files. 'tar', 'ar', 'cpio' are all archiving tools. This is *not* the same as compression, which is a separate operation. Debian Archives is the repository for old Debian releases, see http://www.debian.org/distrib/archive . For the package archive, ask me about <snapshot>. Old Debian <ISO> files are archived at http://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/archive/
14:20<rain1>thanks
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14:37<rain1>https://imgur.com/a/FAKoM00 I've added a snapshot repo which enabled me to install old gcc and some things, but I cannot build hello world because I don't have glibc headers. Anyone know how I could get them? There is an error when I attempt to install libc-dev: depends on libc6 (= 2.3.2.ds1-22) but 2.3.2.ds1-22sarge6 is to be installed. I'm not sure what that means
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14:46<arto>rain1: those removed from the
14:46<arto> official archives because they were very buggy, unusable, broken,
14:46<arto> vulnerable or in some way
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14:54<retrospectacus>rain1: sarge is obviously no longer supported. Why don't you use stretch?
14:57<bremner>do you think he will listen to the 8th person when he ignored the first 7?
14:58-!-mode/#debian [+l 362] by debhelper
14:58<arto>retrospectacus: now at least 7 of us has asked the same, without answer
15:02<retrospectacus>I wanna hear what shitty old software (s)he is trying to use
15:02<bremner>I wanna pony
15:03<bremner>actually, no thanks. no pony.
15:04<retrospectacus>!bullseye
15:04<dpkg>The release following Debian 10 "Buster" is codenamed "Bullseye" (Woody's horse in Toy Story 2) and will be Debian 11. https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2016/07/msg00002.html
15:04<retrospectacus>you'll get your pony
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16:02<nyov>I wonder if that codename will be debians downfall or a revival
16:03<bremner>neither?
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16:09<nyov>Perhaps I'm pessimistic, but I feel Debian is dying a slow death from it's own mass inertia and convenience. It's no longer young and imaginative
16:10<annadane>wat
16:12<nyov>well by sheer size, it's hard to still be inventive and groundbreaking. you have to obey the built-up inertia and keep rolling with it (to not break any number of dependencies)
16:12<nyov>all the inventive stuff happens in other distros now
16:13<annadane>meh. debian will basically always be popular
16:13<nyov>what happend to the idea of rolling releases. too hard
16:13<annadane>debian stable does one thing but it does it very well
16:13<annadane>others prefer arch or whatever, it's really up to what people feel is best for them
16:14<nyov>by sheer size of developers being able to bughunt
16:14<nyov>things like nixos does, atomic upgrades and rollback
16:15<annadane>a lot of the reason people like debian is *because* it's predictable
16:15<nyov>what I so hate on every upgrade: diffing old configs with new to find the actual changes I need to preserve
16:15<nyov>Why are config files still text and not something like a git-style filesystem overlay
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16:25<nyov>people will probably cry foul if I say windows *cough* registry hive *cough*
16:26<nyov>but it could be so much easier to maintain a database-like namespace k-v store for config settings of applications
16:27<nyov>it would blow what they call devops these days out of the water overnight. ansible, puppet, chef, salt and whatnot. they all do it somehow wrong
16:29<nyov>nevermind package management. when I try to use aptitude on a raspi to resolve package dependencies it just hangs for ages
16:29<nyov>why can't I have it do that on a local machine, while managing a remote machines package cache?
16:30<nyov>apt-over-ssh. that would be it
16:30<nyov>multiplexed, and I could handle hundred machine upgrades at once?
16:30<itd>send a patch
16:31<nyov>I wish I could. Really I do
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16:42<mnuhmnuh>nyov: etckeeper
16:43<nyov>mnuhmnuh: nah, I have that on every machine already. nice backup. but doesn't integrate with ucf and those irritating "package was updated by you, please diff with newer version" dialogs
16:44<nyov>I actually started on something there with a fuse overlay that would integrate with this other tool to parse config files transparently from text to "binary" back to text
16:45<mnuhmnuh>nyov: the business of debian has always been stable. if you need rolling or bleeding edge, you're in the wrong place. go with slackware.
16:45<nyov>whats that tool called again, a redhat project that would use xpath? to parse text files into tree structures and nodes?
16:45<nyov>I can't remember
16:46<nyov>I don't need rolling or edge. I use debian still because I can release-upgrade
16:47<davesp>"xmllint"?
16:47<nyov>I remember somewhere around 2008 I was required to use fedora at a workplace. Then they told me I had to reinstall for a new release because there is no upgrade-path
16:47<nyov>I was laughing long and hard
16:47<nyov>no not xmllint, sorry
16:50<nyov>some redhat project. I remember it shared a webhost with libvirt or so?
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17:00<nyov>How can I (apt) search for a package description in all my _installed_ packages?
17:03<davesp>dpkg -l | grep -i package
17:03<dpkg>No packages found matching | grep -i package
17:04<davesp>'dpkg -l | grep -i package'
17:04<nyov>davesp: awesome, thanks
17:04<davesp>np
17:05<nyov>yeaha. *augeas* that was the name. http://augeas.net/
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17:06<nyov>So yeah. I thought if I could get that to work transparently; parsing config files into some K-V store to manage, but turn them back to text for the application to understand (using FUSE), I'd be set.
17:07<nyov>was too much work for me, sadly
17:07<nyov>probably will try again some day
17:09<davesp>What part of a package are you trying to find?
17:12<nyov>davesp: it was the augeas package I was looking for
17:13<nyov>wanted to build my own personal linux registry hive. lol
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17:19<nyov>In that respect I really adore postfix. postfix gets everything right. From the way everything is just a small process forked by a supervisor, to the way it manages its config. just awesome
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17:21<nyov>postconf can parse and update it's own config, knows it's own built-in default values, and can tell me what I *changed* from the default, so it only has to hassle me when a non-default value actually differs between upstream releases
17:21<nyov>not when I added or removed some whitespace or comments
17:22<nyov>beautiful software design
17:27<jhutchins>nyov: They've introduced upgrades with EL7, so maybe ready for the 21st. Century.
17:28<nyov>jhutchins: way too late for me :)
17:31<nyov>I've been hooked on debian since ~ 2000. And back then RPM land was a mess. Haven't looked back since then
17:32<nyov>I remember coming from windows-land and trying to install software on a SuSE system then like it was windows. Didn't work out of course :D
17:34<nyov>I mean I was looking for RPMs. But you never knew if you just downloaded a redhat rpm, a suse thing or some other? installation broke everything
17:34<nyov>then debian just had this big dselect list, and everything was in it
17:34<nyov>even bnetd
17:35<davesp>RedHat RPM -> Mandrake, which inherited RPM dependency-hell from RedHat, which Debian seems to have tamed.
17:36<davesp>Mostly.
17:38<finn>Could someone point me to an example preinst/postinst/prerm/postrm/etc scripts for a debian package that installs a service? I can guess where i should be calling things like systemctl start and systemctl enable, but I would much prefer some example or documentation
17:40<piper>back in 1998, suse was based on redhat, yes it was nasty ;) mandrake made things easier
17:41<nyov>i faintly remember that YaST was a pain. later YaST2 as well
17:41<at0m>finn: are you running debian? if so, look in /var/lib/dpkg/info/
17:41<finn>at0m: ah nifty
17:41<nyov>dselect took some time learning the keystrokes, but then it was so smooth
17:41<dselect>nyov: You are person #1 to send an unparseable request
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17:41<somiaj>finn: use invoke-rc.d and update-rc.d, this should work for both systemd, init.d and posisbly other init systems.
17:41<finn>i was hoping for recommendations on a specific package to examine
17:41<nyov>haha
17:41<nyov>not so smooth now
17:41<somiaj>finn: pick one that has a similar script, lots of them out there.
17:41<at0m>finn: should be plenty there =)
17:41<finn>somiaj: ok thanks for letting me know
17:42<finn>mk
17:42<somiaj>finn: but the man page and new matainers guide should help with invoke-rc.d ussage
17:42<at0m>finn: if you do not run debian, untar a .deb
17:42<finn>yeah, i run debian so its fine
17:43<finn>https://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/maint-guide/ this is where i should be looking?
17:45<somiaj>finn: it should describe this, but I didn't find the right section in my first look, so unsure
17:46<finn>alright
17:46<somiaj>there is also #packaging for general packaging questions and #debian-mentors for debian specific questions (getting packages into debian and meeting debian policy)
17:46<finn>ah cool
17:48<finn>i think im gonna go over to #packaging and ask bigger picture questions because the more I research this the more I think my whole .deb building setup sucks
17:50<nyov>Is anyone aware of how big ftp-master is? I mean how much size it does take hosting all those deb packages currently?
17:50<somiaj>nyov: I think stretch is like 100gigs of packages.
17:50<somiaj>and this is just the binary, there are also source
17:50<somiaj>it also depends on how many arches you are talking about
17:50<nyov>all of it
17:51<somiaj>https://www.debian.org/mirror/size
17:51<nyov>Yeah I was hosting a partial mirror of amd64 and i386 a few years back, plus security. about 300-400 gigs
17:51<somiaj>I think that is stats for stretch
17:51<nyov>somiaj: oh awesome. thanks
17:51<somiaj>but that seems to suggest 3TB
17:52<nyov>oh wait thats only one release. hmm
17:53<somiaj>Numbers on this page are updated daily. -- maybe that is testing numbers
17:53<somiaj>maybe it is sid, not quite sure
17:53<somiaj>I've often been courious the size of snapshot.debian.org
17:54<nyov>Or maybe it _is_ arches cross-release?
17:54<nyov>Yeah exactly
17:54<nyov>I was wondering how they managed
17:54<nyov>and if it couldn't be a massive size-improvement to get rid of the physical deb packages to allow deduplication?
17:55<somiaj>as a snapshot, since reproducible builds are still kinda new, duplication may not actually be duplication of older packages
17:56<nyov>You know, build stuff on-demand; though not exactly, but rather serve packages somewhat like rsync, somewhat like git
17:57<somiaj>yea, but building on demand is only relable if the packages are reproducible builds, else the new package will be different from the old one
17:57<somiaj>s/will/could/
17:57<nyov>Oh, I didn't mean compile-on-demand, just the binary stuff packaged on demand
17:58<nyov>(re-packaged) I still think it could make some impact even for binaries. So many security- or other updates to packages that only touch parts of it
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17:59<somiaj>well .debs are compressed/packaged, and don't contain all the extra fluff that gets created during the build (this is all deleted), so the package is probably smaller size, then packaging on demand.
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18:01<nyov>You may be right, but even still? I'd be tempted to fool around with a partial mirror and test some if I had the bandwith (and disksize) to do so
18:02<nyov>alas. sadly not
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18:04<somiaj>yea, it could be i'm not fully understanding how you are wanting to store the info, almost sounds like you want to store .diffs as opposed to copies each version change
18:05<nyov>think git object store, if you know how that works. without the crazy compression perhaps (because binaries won't compress much)
18:06<nyov>as you say, debs are already compressed so I think the advantage would be more in transfer than server-side disk storage, fetching rsync-like diffs of packages only on updates
18:08<nyov>but when you consider how many copies of a package sometimes exist -especially on snapshots.d.o- from updates alone, those should flatten pretty well I *think*
18:09<nyov>of course doing it for source-releases would be magnitudes more size-reduction - but then we'd be gentoo or thereabouts
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21:00<maher>firefox used to display a url at the bottom of the screen when i hovered the mouse over a link - can I get this back - what is this called?
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21:12<sqrt{not}>maher: it still does that for me, running stretch with Firefox 60.2.0esr....some things that aren't simple links sometimes don't show down there....
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21:18<sqrt{not}>(also known as firefox-esr version: 60.2.0esr-1~deb9u2 )
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21:25<maher>sqrt{not}: yes that's what I'm running...
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21:34<maher>sqrt{not}: ok - it's there, it just fell below the bottom of the screen...
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---Logclosed Sat Sep 15 00:00:50 2018