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#debian IRC Logs for 2018-10-24

---Logopened Wed Oct 24 00:00:38 2018
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00:26<SpeedyG>tarzeau: that one does look more complete indeed :) nice stuff
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00:59<twb>what's the thing that replaced qa.d.o?
01:00<twb>ah, tracker.d.o
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01:43<adminewb>hi all
01:43<SpeedyG>mornin
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01:46<adminewb>on stretch & buster, I'm having difficulty getting initramfs-tools to make a bootable initrd for a raid1 btrfs rootfs, where the mirror device is USB3-external; could dracut do with less customizing fuss?
01:47<twb>I got nowhere with dracut
01:47<twb>and I looked inside it and it's still a crappy bash script with crappy error handling
01:47<twb>so I gave up and stuck with initramfs-tools
01:49<adminewb>without dracut or some other dramatically different approach, I can't get the right collection of modules or other software blobs to make it fly; before raid1 it was fine with no customizing
01:50<jm_>you can tell initramfs-tools to include any module you need
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01:50<twb>yeah although USB3 is probably already there
01:50<adminewb>that's the trouble, I'm in trouble distinguishing what blobs it needs
01:50<twb>that would be xHCI and mass-storage drivers
01:50<twb>The problem is more likely that it's not loaded early enough for some reason
01:51<twb>I mean that "mdadm --assemble --scan" runs before "modprobe usb3"
01:51<adminewb>uas, usb_storage, autofs4 added... already have ahci things
01:52<twb>adminewb: the first thing I would do if I were you, is drop into the broken ramdisk and run "blkid" and see if the underlying /dev/sdz of the USB keys can be seen
01:52<twb>if not, try modprobe and lsmod for likely things (e.g. usb_storage)
01:52<adminewb>right, the external drives are missing
01:52<twb>if modprobe says "I don't have the .ko for that", then jm_'s answer is the right answer
01:52<adminewb>already got all the ones that I can tell are needed
01:54<jm_>try adding xhci_hcd and xhci_pci ehci_pci ehci_hcd
01:54<adminewb>they're not thumb drives, it's usb3 connected sata drive enclosure, not that such would necessarily affect which modules are required
01:55<jm_>it doesn't change things if it's a thumb drive or a 3.5" drive in an enclosure
01:55<adminewb>jm_ ok
01:56<adminewb>what kind of variant is the _hcd?
01:56<twb>I guess that's host controller driver?
01:57<twb>or device
01:57<adminewb>so that's the stage before it gets to a pci bus
01:57<twb>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Host_controller_interface_%28USB,_Firewire%29
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02:05<adminewb>at wiki.debian.org/ModulesAll, they list a module drivers/usb/host/ehci-hcd, but can't find anything xhci-*
02:05<twb>ehci is (one of two) USB2 controllers; xhci is the USB3 controller
02:06<twb>I have /lib/modules/4.18.0-1-amd64/kernel/drivers/usb/host/xhci-???.ko over here
02:06<adminewb>oh nvm; my backport kernel does have such things
02:07<adminewb>4.18 is not backported?
02:07<twb>it is
02:07<twb>sometime this month
02:07<adminewb>ok ty
02:08<twb>So what *I* am fighting is a good deal more confusing.
02:08<twb>I ship Debian Live systems with a custom locked-down kernel (i.e. something like a "make localyesconfig")
02:09<twb>The use udev+udisks2+thunar-volman to detect DVDs being inserted.
02:09<twb>Sometime, possibly even a year ago, that broke. "udevadm monitor" can't see any optical drive open/close events at all.
02:09<adminewb>thanks for the help; more confident now that I have a handle on what modules might relate
02:09<twb>Using stock stretch-backports kernel makes the problem go away
02:10<twb>What's extra confusing is that udev and thunar *can* see a disc that's inserted while the computer is off, but can't see it if I insert it post-boot
02:11<jm_>twb: maybe it's some kernel issue?
02:11<twb>And this is happening with at least my locked-down 4.16, 4.17, and 4.13.
02:11<twb>jm_: yeah, I just am not sure how to bisect it down to work out what is different between my kernel and stock stretch bpo kernel
02:12<twb>(And it takes me, like, an hour to do a recompile/build/test cycle if I change the kernel compile options, so it'll take ages to brute force)
02:12<twb>I thought it might be udev / udisks2 getting a stretch proposed-updates, but I can't see anything interesting there for ages
02:13<jm_>twb: it doesn't work even if you base your custom config kernel on debian kernel?
02:13<twb>it's always based on the debian one
02:14<jm_>ok so it must be some config option then?
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02:19<twb>sorry was afk
02:19<twb>yeah it'll be some config difference, but I have hundreds
02:20<twb>1553 disable lines and 85 enable lines
02:20<jm_>hmm maybe if you can identify what's responsible for reporting those events you can narrow it down?
02:20<twb>yeah, I'm not very clear on that at all
02:21<twb>I *think* what happens is that the optical drive (which is connected via SATA) is using sg and ATAPI and maybe AHCI
02:21<twb>and udev sees events on that somehow, and that triggers udisks2 to scan the disc and set some additional properties
02:22<twb>e.g. MEDIA_TYPE=CD-ROM vs. CD-RW
02:22<twb>And since "udevadm monitor" doesn't print *anything*, I ought to be able to ignore the udisks2 layer entirely
02:24<twb>http://ix.io/1pTV config-4.17.0-0.bpo.3-amd64
02:24<twb>http://ix.io/1pTW config-4.17.17inmate
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02:25<twb>I said sg before, but I meant sr -- the optical drive is /dev/sr0
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02:26<jm_>does udevadm report events with stock kernel?
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02:27<twb>good question. I have only looked for indirect evidence of that at a higher layer
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02:27<twb>a python process that watches for udev events and logs its own stuff
02:27<twb>Let me run "udevadm monitor" directly
02:28<twb>Yes, it does
02:28<twb>http://ix.io/1pTY
02:30<jm_>so it looks just like some generic event, not something more specific
02:30<twb>at the udev layer it's just a "change" event
02:31<twb>whether that means an eject or a new disc or whatever, that's metadata inside the event
02:31<jm_>and udevadm monitor can't print more info to be able to narrow it further?
02:31<jm_>ahh udevadm monitor --proprety
02:31<twb>udevadm monitor can tell me more about an event, once the event appears
02:31<twb>but with my locked-down kernel, udevadm monitor prints *nothing*
02:32<twb>indicating that udevd doesn't see an event at all
02:32<jm_>yeah I was thinking if we see a more specific event we can look in the kernel if it's hidden behind some option
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02:32<twb>ah I see
02:32<twb>yes I can pull some more data
02:35<twb>http://ix.io/1pU2/python is part of the fingerprinting script, the ID_* attributes are set by udisks2 before the fingerprinter sees the event (unless udisks2 is too slow, in which case udev kills it and gives me the event anyway)
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02:36<twb>and here's the monitor of an insertion event, with a stock bpo kernel
02:36<twb>http://ix.io/1pU3
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02:37<twb>I had a look at the udisks2 docs but didn't see a systemd-udev-style list of "REQUIRED: CONFIG_X, CONFIG_Y; RECOMMENDED: CONFIG_Z"
02:38<twb>I guess I should double-check the systemd one
02:42<twb>CONFIG_DEVPTS_MULTIPLE_INSTANCES isn't set in mine, but it's not set in stock debian either
02:43<jm_>how about CONFIG_UEVENT_HELPER?
02:43<twb>Oh, to be glaringly obvious: systemctl and journalctl don't report any problems when the disc events are missing
02:43<twb>jm_: that's disabled in both
02:44<twb>http://ix.io/1pU6 from stretch's systemd/README -- everything passes from the top to CONFIG_NET_NS
02:45<jm_>twb: I have concentrated on this line DISK_MEDIA_CHANGE=1
02:45<twb>good thinking
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02:47<jm_>it's in block/genhd.c but can't see any config options surrounding it
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02:49<twb>possibly that's wrapped around the scsi_sr-specific variant of that?
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02:49<jm_>it calls into lib/kobject_uevent.c kobject_uevent_env I think, and that one has debug statements, but you'd need to enable CONFIG_DEBUG I think
02:50<twb>there is no CONFIG_DEBUG; CONFIG_DEBUG_KERNEL=y; I can't see a SCSI DEBUG
02:50<jm_>which would probably output a lot of stuff, I never tried that one myself
02:51<twb>Possibly CONFIG_DEBUG is set indirectly by whatever turns on CFLAGS += -g or something
02:51<jm_>hmm not sure how one would go about it then, maybe #define DEBUG in lib/kobject_uevent.c then
02:51<twb>I'm still dl'ing an actual kernel tree
02:51<twb>once I can "make menuconfig" I can grep for it across --include Kconfig
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03:26<twb>Well that's done
03:26<twb>$ git grep -Fw DEBUG v4.17 -- '**/Kconfig'
03:26<twb>nothing obvious there
03:27<twb>jm_: I don't see CONFIG_DEBUG in block/genhd.c
03:28<twb>v4.17:block/genhd.c:#ifdef CONFIG_DEBUG_BLOCK_EXT_DEVT is all I see
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03:29<jm_>twb: not in there, it's kobject_uevent_env which uses pr_debug and that one doesn't do anything unless it goes into #ifdef DEBUG block
03:30<twb>ah
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03:31<jm_>so maybe try slapping «#define DEBUG» in lib/kobject_uevent.c
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03:36<twb>Hrm, I can see kobject_uevent_env being fired from v4.17:drivers/scsi/scsi_lib.c as well (KOBJ_CHANGE)
03:38<twb>I see the pr_debug
03:38<twb>at v4.17:lib/kobject_uevent.c
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03:39<twb>v4.17:Documentation/admin-guide/dynamic-debug-howto.rst explains how to enable pr_debug()
03:40<twb>1. enable debugfs; 2. echo 'file svcsock.c line 1603 +p' /sys/debugfs/dynamic-debug/control
03:40<jm_>ahh that does not exist in 4.9 so I haven't found it
03:41<jm_>so I assume both kernels have CONFIG_DYNAMIC_DEBUG enabled
03:41<twb>probably not :P
03:41<twb>"DEBUGFS" and "DYNAMIC_DEBUG" don't appear in config-4.17.17inmate
03:42<twb>(Meaning something they need is disabled, so they're not even mentioned)
03:43<twb>for stretch 4.17 bpo, CONFIG_DYNAMIC_DEBUG=y CONFIG_DEBUG_FS=y
03:43<twb>So I can at least enable it right now on the working one; not sure if that'll tell me anything interesting
03:46<jm_>yeah on that one I expect you will just see it being sent, we're more interested on the non-working one if it gets sent or not
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03:59<twb>So it sounds like my job for tomorrow (it's bedtime) is to compile a locked-down inmate kernel, but with debug_fs=y and dynamic_debug=y and then try to enable pr_debug for those lines
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04:10<ib0t>hey i have a problem always when i move big files ca 30 GB from my notebook Debian 9 to my extrenal SSD my computer freezz for am ampount of time
04:10<ib0t>i dont know whats the ptoblem is ??
04:10<ib0t>anybody can help pls ?
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04:13<twb>ib0t: describe the symptoms
04:13<twb>Oh, the "computer freezes"
04:13<ib0t>jep
04:14<twb>This could be several things
04:14<twb>At some layer, the copy process is getting "too much" of the resources
04:14<twb>so the other parts don't have enough, and wait (i.e. freeze)
04:14<twb>Are you doing the copy using the cp program, or using a GUI?
04:15<ib0t>i have tried bouth over gui, cp and mv
04:15<twb>if you are using cp, you can put these commands in front to say "I am a boring program, let other programs go first"
04:15<twb>nice ionice -c3 chrt --idle 0 cp foo.mp4 /media/my_porn/foo.mp4
04:16<twb>If this helps, great! But probably the actual problem is elsewhere
04:16<ib0t>okey thanks i will try
04:17<twb>If you are using stretch, using the stretch-backport kernel might help. The kernel has different "queue" "schedule" options and sometimes the default changes
04:17<twb>The new one might fix it automatically, or you might have to explicitly ask for a different scheduler
04:17<twb>e.g. "cfq I/O scheduler"
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04:18<jm_>how fast is the copy?
04:18<twb>Other things you might look into: is the SSD drive getting a dedicated IRQ (interrupt request), or is it shared with e.g. the sound card. irqbalance might help
04:18<twb>also, if it is a USB key, try different USB ports, especially blue-tongue ones
04:19<twb>You can also artificially limit the copy speed, e.g. using pv or rsync
04:20<twb>If it is a "real" SSD (not USB key), upgrading to one that uses NVMe and M.2 instead of AHCI and SATA, might help
04:20<ib0t>okey i will try
04:20<ib0t>yeah it is fast but longer the process is working the pc more and more freeze and after a while when the process ends the it go back to normal
04:20<twb>Likewise, choice of filesystem (e.g. _not_ FAT) and filesystem options
04:20<ib0t>i think i will test it with rsync
04:21<ib0t>no fs on ssd is ext4
04:21<twb>It sounds like your disk writes are linear; if they are random-access writes, this problem will happen if one process is doing random writes, and another is doing sync() syscalls
04:22<twb>the random-writes case can be helped by disabling the sync() calls and/or telling the random-access writer to buffer in memory
04:22<twb>for that, see libeatmydata
04:23<twb>sync vs. random-writes problems used to be bad in early GNOME3 / btrfs era, but should be rare now
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04:24<ib0t>where i can change sync call and random write ?
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04:25<twb>ib0t: ignore that until you have tried all the other things
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04:25<twb>sync vs. random is LEAST likely problem
04:26<ib0t>okey
04:27<ib0t>because these files are backup files from my virtual machines (.qcow2) files but thes are bigger the the storage inside is used
04:28<jm_>that problem exists for decades now :)
04:29<ib0t>okey :D Im not alone
04:29<twb>you might find using qemu's built-in 9p server works better
04:29<twb>then there is no disk-image-as-a-file in the first place
04:32<ib0t>okey then i have all my data on the hoste fs
04:32<ib0t>?
04:33<twb>yeah but I think you can't boot that way, so you still need a small boot disk image
04:33<twb>and also it's slow
04:33<twb>so decide which annoys you more :-)
04:34<twb>a middle ground would be to use blkdiscard and make sure virtio is used as much as possible
04:34<twb>blkdiscard should probably be your first step there
04:35<twb>Sorry, wrong program!
04:35<jm_>fstrim?
04:35<twb>I mean this one: /lib/systemd/system/fstrim.timer
04:35<twb>I *think* you can just do "systemctl enable --now fstrim.timer" and it'll look after itself
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04:42<ib0t>okey i should rethink my server arch now i have all data in the virtual fs but is it not a sec risk that the virt machine have access to the host fs ?
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04:42<twb>if you don't trust the host OS, you're fucked no matter what you do
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04:43<twb>because it can do pretty much any evil maid or power analysis it wants
04:43<jm_>I think the question was in the other direction - guest having access to host files
04:43<twb>oh
04:43<ib0t>i trust the host os but not the virt
04:43<ib0t>yeaj
04:43<twb>with qemu 9p you tell it what directory to expose
04:44<twb>so it can do anything to that dir but not outside
04:44<twb>(unless it find a bug in the filesystem driver, I guess)
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05:29<grove>I'm trying to set up a new machine (running stretch) so I can run lxc containers as myself (unprivileged), For that I've tried to follow https://wiki.debian.org/LXC, even though that doesn't say, I used the values associated with my user from /etc/sub[ug]id in the lxc.id_map lines in ~/.config/lxc/default.conf, but when I get to "lxc-create", I get an error, for the full message see ...
05:29<grove>... http://paste.debian.net/1048736/, basically it's saying "error: mapping child" "setgid: Invalid argument". Any hints on what I did wrong/forgot?
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05:47<vicky>can we enable user systemd service files using deb-systemd-helper ? For eg: 'deb-systemd-helper --user enable pulseaudio.service'
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06:07<petn-randall>Guest1225: Do you have a Debian support question?
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07:04<Edge226>Hello. I'm having some issues setting up the nvidia-drivers in debian stretch.
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07:04<Edge226>I've followed the wiki article for it on how to do stretch-backports.
07:04<Edge226>But there are packages that seem to be missing and I don't know how to fix it.
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07:05<Edge226>is there anyone around that can give some advice?
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07:05<grove>I'm a step further in making my LXC containers work. I found out that I needed to install uidmap, now I get another error: http://paste.debian.net/1048773/
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07:10<jm_>Edge226: just provide more details and someone might look into it
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07:10<Edge226>jm_: I have to reboot into windows to ask for help so I need more info on what you may need.
07:11<Edge226>jm_: otherwise you're asking an impossible task.
07:11<jm_>Edge226: just install a tty IRC client - start by explaining what the actual issue is
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07:12<Edge226>jm_: the actual issue is the instructions https://wiki.debian.org/NvidiaGraphicsDrivers#Version_390.48_.28via_stretch-backports.29 fail on the last step due to dependencies not being able to be installed.
07:12<user__>hi
07:12<jm_>Edge226: ok provide this info:
07:12<jm_>!bat
07:12<dpkg>In order to troubleshoot your problem with apt-get, apt or aptitude we need ALL OF THE FOLLOWING information: 1. complete output of your apt-get/apt/aptitude run (including the command used) 2. output from "apt-cache policy pkg1 pkg2..." for ALL packages mentioned ANYWHERE in the problem, and 3. "apt-cache policy". Use http://paste.debian.net/ to provide us with this information. Also ask me about <localized errors>.
07:13<user__>r u in reall time?
07:13<user__>im just checking if this is working correctly...
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07:13<jm_>it is working
07:14<user__>alright....thank you
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07:15<grove>Okay, that's an issue with setting up and IPv4-only guest on a host that can do IPv6 resolving, prefixing the command with 'DOWNLOAD_KEYSERVER="ipv4.pool.sks-keyservers.net" ' (and solving some gpg issues) fixed it
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07:24<Edge226>I got the information asked for, My X decided to boot this time when it failed last time :D
07:24<Edge226>http://paste.debian.net/1048774/
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07:25<grove>I've added two paragraphs to https://wiki.debian.org/LXC/Discussion so others can find it somewhere and (hopefully) someone with better time and understanding of it can make proper modification of the instructions on https://wiki.debian.org/LXC
07:25<Edge226>Anyone know how to get the nvidia driver installed?
07:25<jm_>Edge226: include the problematic packages in the command line
07:26<Edge226>jm_: I did that earlier but alright.
07:26<jm_>Edge226: and you got the same error?
07:26<Edge226>jm_: different ones.
07:27<jm_>Edge226: right, let's see that then
07:27<Edge226>you still need the policy stuff?
07:27<piper>Edge226: you can try this. apt purge nvidia. make sure you include the period ! apt update; apt install nvidia-driver nvidia-driver-libs nvidia-settings nvidia-kernel-dkms reboot
07:29<jm_>Edge226: you only provided policy for one package, the factoid said to provide it for all, but anyway, the one pasted looks OK, you may want to add non-free and contrib for debian stretch too, not just for backports
07:29<Edge226>jm_: There was only one package in the command...
07:30<piper>nvidia-driver is non-free
07:30<Edge226>jm_: and the wiki article did not say to do that.
07:30<jm_>Edge226: it doesn't matter, in general you include it for all packages apt complains about, not what you specify :)
07:30<jm_>nvidia-installer-cleanup is not installable because it's in stretch/contrib
07:31<jm_>so do what I said above
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07:33<Edge226>jm_: ok cool that seems to have worked. Thanks.
07:34<jm_>Edge226: enjoy
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07:34<Edge226>Thanks.
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08:41-!-Haudegen is "AP,,," on #debian.or.at #debian-mozilla #debian-next #security #debian
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08:56<fr13end>.
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09:19<webdog>hello
09:20<petn-randall>hi webdog
09:20<webdog>is there any people
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09:20<webdog>what's this?
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09:22<petn-randall>webdog: Yes, there are many people. This is IRC. The Debian support channel.
09:23<petn-randall>webdog: First time installing Kali or Parrot?
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09:26-!-Volley is "Wolfgang Scheicher" on #realraum #virt #debian-live #debian-kde #debian-next #debian
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09:29-!-ricardofantin is "Ricardo Fantin da Costa,,," on #debian-l10n-br #debian-devel-br #debian-br #debian
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09:31<webdog>can i create a chat server ?
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09:36<dreamer>I don't know. can you?
09:37<webdog>sorry ,i can't
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09:37-!-larjona_ is "Laura Arjona Reina" on #debconf17-potato #debconf17-buzz #debconf-cambridge #debconf17-bo #debconf-bursaries #debian-dpp #debian #debian-policy #debian-med #debian-localgroups #dpp
09:38<webdog>you mei you zhong guo ren
09:38<grove>!cn
09:38<dpkg>如果您想要以中文得到 Debian 相關的協助,請加入 irc.debian.org 或 irc.oftc.net 上的 #dot 頻道,連線與加入頻道的方法請參閱 IRC 程式之相關說明,或於網路上搜尋。謝謝您的合作!
09:39<webdog>woc,原来可以输入中文。。。
09:40<webdog>有没有中国人,,,
09:40<webdog>这个怎么用啊,
09:40<duclicsic>webdog: this channel is for supporting users of Debian, it is an English language channel, dpkg is a bot and cannot read your replies
09:40<petn-randall>webdog: You need to speak english to get support in here.
09:40<duclicsic>if you do not have a question about debian please find somewhere else to chat
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11:47-!-nowhere_man is "Pierre Thierry" on @#concatenative #emacs #git @#erights #lisp #debian
11:47<noname>hello
11:48<petn-randall>hi noname
11:49<noname>you can speak indonesia ?
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11:56<dreamer>there is #debian-id for Indonesian debian users
11:57<dreamer>if you really want to speak your native language
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11:58<xfadedxshadow>Yeeet
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12:24<ashen>i'm looking for a guide, or a relatively simple GUI application, to help make user accounts. wanting to have 5 user accounts, each with separate download, pictures, videos, desktop folders etc. in the home folder. so far, I've had to make these folders manually - it seems there should be a better way?
12:25<ashen>if there's no such thing, that's fine. still getting my head around permissions, though, and looking for a shortcut
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12:27<danopa>ashen: are you using a de? like gnome?
12:27<ashen>yes
12:27<ashen>specifically cinnamon
12:27<danopa>ashen: it does it for you. look in the system settings for the user app
12:27<danopa>ashen: or just search for user in the menu
12:28<jhutchins_wk>!cinnamon
12:28<dpkg>Cinnamon is a fork of <GNOME Shell> initially developed by the Linux Mint distribution. Packaged since Debian 8 "Jessie", ask me about <install cinnamon>. http://cinnamon.linuxmint.com/
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13:26<mnuhmnuh>cinnamon is a fork of gnome shell, mate is a fork of gnome 2. is that correct, or just oddly worded? they're both just fork of gnome 2, yes?
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13:29<danopa>mnuhmnuh: current gnome is gnome 3. cinnamon is based on gnome 3
13:31<mnuhmnuh>ah. i was mistaken; thought they were both just non-identical twins.
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14:18<kts>Cinnamon resets brightness after locking screen.
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14:38<mnuhmnuh>kts: there's screensaver and power mgmt. involved controlling such.
14:40<kts>Found no relevant option mnuhmnuh
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14:43<mnuhmnuh>in mate, system --> preferences --> hardware --> power mgmt.
14:43<mnuhmnuh>or, system --> control center
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14:44<mnuhmnuh>it could also be hardware based. desktop w lcd attached? lcd guts may be doing it.
14:46<kts>It's a laptop.
14:46<nyov>debhelper: y u no mod!
14:47<kts>Is this a feature?
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14:48<kts>I guess I'll live with it.
14:49<nyov>!ops debhelper needs op
14:49<dpkg>Hydroxide, dondelelcaro, LoRez, RichiH, mentor, abrotman, Maulkin, stew, peterS, Myon, Ganneff, weasel, zobel, themill, babilen, SynrG, jm_, somiaj, jelly, petn-randall: nyov complains about a problem (see above)
14:49<mnuhmnuh>kts: depends what you want. wouldn't be there if nobody wanted it.
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14:50<kts>That might be a feature then.
14:51<kts>I hope it's a feature.
14:52<dboles>"wouldn't be there if nobody wanted it." have you never seen a bug before?
14:52<mnuhmnuh>i ought to login to cinnamon again and look around. it's been a while.
14:52<dboles>not saying it is, but thats hardly sound logic
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14:53<mnuhmnuh>dboles: if nobody wanted it, the bug would be fixed! :-) all bugs are shallow my !@# grumble, mumble ...
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14:54<mnuhmnuh>even perfectly logical stuff can make no sense.
14:55<dboles>computers are (barring radiation bombardment, etc.) perfectly logical; it's just that our programming and/or expectations of them are usually so far from it!
14:55*mnuhmnuh i do it all the time.
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14:58<mnuhmnuh>dboles: computers are just complicated hammers, mere tools. built for hitting diff. shaped nails. what goes in comes out, maybe not how expected.
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15:44<mnuhmnuh>wow. just installing cinnamon-desktop-environment is a hawg.
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16:20<triolus>l;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;
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16:39<triolus>so sayeth my cat.
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17:13<mnuhmnuh>it appears cinnamon uses twice the ram mate uses. runs as well, but tough to just find how to control previously obvious features. desktops? enable desktops applet; ah! sheesh.
17:14<mnuhmnuh>no, not twice. ca. .8 G vs. 1 G.
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17:15<dboles>resident?
17:15<dboles>lmao, baloo_file is at 256 GiB virtual here. shut it down
17:16<mnuhmnuh>why am i seeing duplicate lines?
17:18<mnuhmnuh>change to other desktop and back, goes away. cinnamon! hrumph.
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17:28<jimpop>cinnamon works great on my netbook, absolutely zero problems with out-of-the-box cinnamon
17:28<jimpop>litterally the best linux gui i've used in ~20 years
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17:30<jitterstick>xfce is much more full featured for me.
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17:31<jitterstick>and I am on an asus eeepc 1001px or something with 2gig ram atom 450
17:32<jitterstick>works wonderfully. I had to do a few things for the trackpad to touch and two finger scroll in all directions and such.
17:33<jitterstick>also something for the fn keys to work.
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17:34<jitterstick>some like mate too, which I hear is basically the old gnome.
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17:38<somiaj>yea, mate is a gnome2 fork, though they have done a bit to it now.
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17:43<jitterstick>yes, i find that I like more features than the older ones, like menus that grab all the programs and order them in one place.
17:43<mnuhmnuh>logged out of cinnamon hoping to try cinnamon software rendering login (whatever) ... not there! lightdm only offers default and mate! cinnamon! ffs.
17:44<jitterstick>Although, for speed afterstep is probably the fastest, with openbox.
17:44<jitterstick>is cinnamon openbox?
17:45<mnuhmnuh>no, not your prob.
17:45<somiaj>there are far more minimial wms than afterstep and openbox, if speed is what you want.
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17:45<somiaj>ratposion is probably one of the more minimal ones
17:45<jitterstick>xterm
17:45<somiaj>jitterstick: cinnamon uses openbox, but a DE is a window manager + other software.
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17:45<mnuhmnuh>dwm's prob. smaller than xterm.
17:46<somiaj>xterm really isn't a wm, and though you could run xorg with only xterm, you would lact some basic gui functionality.
17:47<jitterstick>keystrokes are worth saving imho.
17:47<somiaj>ratposion is a tiling wm based around gnu screen (so it is very keybinding controlled)
17:47<somiaj>debian offers 10+ wms to choose from, sure you can find one you like. Even the old fvwm1 is available.
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17:48<somiaj>though a lot of a gui is some combination of what you like mixed with configuration time. Many of the more minimial wm's require more configuration, but this gives more power to get what you want.
17:49<somiaj>while bigger DE's like gnome/cinnimon/xfce/lxde, have preconfigured a lot for you, and give you some gui tools to slightly tweak some things. Advantage, it is mostly ready to go, but it won't give you as much ability to customize as starting with a wm.
17:50<jitterstick>yes, and the amount of apps you add, like docks and panels end up using close to the same, if not more, resources.
17:52<somiaj>My experience is you will still use less resources with a minimial wm than a de with the same docks/apps
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17:52<somiaj>thugh I'm sure there are cases where some efficeny is gained by the de linking the tools together.
17:52<jitterstick>perhaps, but alot of them are 3d accelerated and glitchy with netbook hardware.
17:53<mnuhmnuh>i installed recently, using mate thereafter. just installed cinnamon-desktop-environment; not there in lightdm picklist. dpk-reconfigure lightdm returns immed. fix?
17:53<mnuhmnuh>hmm /etc/lightdm ...
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17:55<jitterstick>Now that I think about it I am going to attempt afterstep. Thanks for the motivation.
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18:05<mnuhmnuh>you too. i'm going back to wdm.
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18:51<kujira>hey folks!
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19:10-!-cpaelzer is "Christian Ehrhardt" on #virt #debian #debian-qemu
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19:17-!-alephnull is "Alok G Singh" on #debian-next #debian-in #moocows #debian #bitlbee
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19:18-!-yohnnyjoe is "yohnnyjoe" on #debian
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19:21-!-battlebushes is "realname" on #debian
19:21<battlebushes>hey
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19:28-!-m8mble_ is "m8mble" on #debian #pext
19:28-!-annadane [~annadane@mtrlpq5302w-lp130-02-70-24-204-122.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #debian
19:28-!-annadane is "realname" on #debian-live #reproducible-builds #privacytech #debian-offtopic #debian-next #debian-devel-changes #debian-apt #debian
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19:44-!-marvil07 is "Marco Villegas" on #debian #debian-peru
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20:16-!-jipege1 is "zaza,,," on #debian-l10n-fr #debian
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20:20-!-tleydxdy[m] is "@tleydxdy:mt.tlebear.win" on #debian
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20:21<pawan>hii
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20:22-!-fstd_ is "fstd" on #gentoo #linuxfs #oftc #vserver #linode #debian #kernelnewbies
20:23<triolus>hi
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20:27*mnuhmnuh there's 510 lurking. fwiw.
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20:32-!-Redentor is "Armando" on #debian-next #linode
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20:44-!-Ruebezahl is "realname" on #debian #skolelinux.de #osm-de
20:47<annadane>some people are just friendly
20:47<annadane>i've learned to leave em alone
20:47<triolus>how long have people here been using debian?
20:47<annadane>personally? about... a year and a half now?
20:48-!-donofrio_ [~donofrio@host-232.subnet-17.med.umich.edu] has joined #debian
20:48-!-donofrio_ is "realname" on #debian #debianppc #debian-next
20:49<triolus>I've been since jessie
20:49<triolus>whenever that was =)
20:49-!-Ruebezahl [~Alf@p200300C04F132700626720FFFE413270.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit []
20:50-!-mode/#debian [+l 521] by debhelper
20:50<triolus>about a year I guess
20:52-!-yohnnyjoe [~yohnnyjoe@c-73-129-2-10.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:55<mnuhmnuh>ca. '96
20:55-!-donofrio [~donofrio@host-232.subnet-17.med.umich.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:55<bremner>since FreeBSD dropped alpha support.
20:56<mnuhmnuh>dince linux killed commercial unix. :-)
20:59<binaryhermit>does debian even support alpha anymore?
20:59*binaryhermit goes to the site
20:59-!-faw [~faw@faw.user.oftc.net] has joined #debian
20:59-!-faw is "Felipe Augusto van de Wiel" on #debian-br #debian-devel-br #debian-l10n-br #debian #debian-next #debian-policy #debian-tech #debian-vim
21:00<binaryhermit>nope
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21:01-!-faw is "Felipe Augusto van de Wiel" on #debian-br #debian-devel-br #debian-l10n-br #debian #debian-next #debian-policy #debian-tech #debian-vim
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21:02<bremner>binaryhermit: it's in debian-ports, which basically means no, but some people keep it going as a hobby
21:02<binaryhermit>though to be fair, I only use debian through crostini because that's the container chrome os spins up by default. I also use raspbian and ubuntu
21:02*binaryhermit knows raspbian and ubuntu aren't debian, and crostini's a corner case at best
21:02-!-faw [~faw@faw.user.oftc.net] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded]
21:03<triolus>I was considering making a pi laptop, but I dunno. mine's kinda slow
21:03-!-yohnnyjoe [~yohnnyjoe@c-73-129-2-10.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #debian
21:03-!-yohnnyjoe is "yohnnyjoe" on #debian
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21:03-!-faw is "Felipe Augusto van de Wiel" on #debian-br #debian-devel-br #debian-l10n-br #debian #debian-next #debian-policy #debian-tech #debian-vim
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21:04-!-tdy is "tdy" on #debian
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21:05<binaryhermit>wow, they sold alpha systems until 2007, but I suspect it was like itanium is now
21:05<binaryhermit>a sinking ship
21:05<mnuhmnuh>triolus: so? just run slow stuff on it. keep stellarium on your whiz-bang box.
21:06-!-faw [~faw@faw.user.oftc.net] has joined #debian
21:06-!-faw is "Felipe Augusto van de Wiel" on #debian-br #debian-devel-br #debian-l10n-br #debian #debian-next #debian-policy #debian-tech #debian-vim
21:06<triolus>honestly, firefox is what kills the poor thing. everything else I do can be done in a terminal
21:07<annadane>browsers suck. also, it's worth going over openbsd's list of architectures some time, pretty impressive
21:07<mnuhmnuh>loved alphas w osf/1 on 'em. blistering fast for their time.
21:07-!-technoid_ [~technoid@50-26-187-10.abilcmtk01.res.dyn.suddenlink.net] has joined #debian
21:07-!-technoid_ is "Tech-noid" on +#Corsair #debian #linode
21:08-!-hele_ [~hele@88-115-23-30.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #debian
21:08-!-hele_ is "hele" on #debian-next #debian
21:08<mnuhmnuh>3m doesn't suck. :-)
21:08<mnuhmnuh>w3m doesn't suck. :-)
21:08<annadane>let me rephrase
21:08<annadane>the modern internet sucks
21:09<annadane>i guess you could just avoid the awful websites which are bloated
21:09<mnuhmnuh>the net's cool, the web's a sewer.
21:10<mnuhmnuh>go to a site you go to often, oh great, auto-loading video ads! fsck.
21:11<annadane>i'm a fan of tildes.net and ycombinator, no nonsense
21:11<at0m>noscript, and pihole on the router.
21:11-!-donofrio__ [~donofrio@host-232.subnet-17.med.umich.edu] has joined #debian
21:11-!-donofrio__ is "realname" on #debian #debianppc #debian-next
21:16<triolus>I could use links2 -g for most things.
21:16<annadane>we've moved to #debian-offtopic if anyone wants to join us there
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21:39-!-nyov is "nyov" on #debian-games #packaging #debian-python-changes #debian #oftc #luakit
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21:48-!-dvs is "realname" on #debian
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21:51-!-jitterstick is "John Doe" on #debian
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22:20-!-banc is "master" on #security #debian #bitlbee
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23:38-!-Redentor is "Armando" on #debian-es #debian-mx #debian-next #linode
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---Logclosed Thu Oct 25 00:00:40 2018