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#linode IRC Logs for 2005-01-21

---Logopened Fri Jan 21 00:00:01 2005
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03:00nyx a hoy hoy all
03:00SupaDongzu oh boy
03:04nyx yes? ;)
03:04SupaDongzu hi asl
03:04nyx dont think so sonny ;)
03:04mikegrb lolz
03:04SupaDongzu lolz
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03:46adamg_work morning all
04:02nyx hiya! hows it going?
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08:53TehDan w
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10:09@linbot New news from forums: Linode rocks! in Customer Testimonials
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10:58@linbot New news from forums: host33 almost down in General Discussion
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11:43ksmith_ is caker around?
11:44ksmith_ alternatively, is anybody in here on host18?
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11:51rafx !seen caker
11:51@linbot rafx: caker was last seen here 15 hours, 43 minutes, and 18 seconds ago saying: <caker> tierra|w: something like that. I have an equally impressive collection of heatsinks
11:54ksmith_ thanks.
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12:16@linbot New news from wiki: Gentoo || Lish Documentation || LPM || Linode Platform Manager || Main Page || Main Page || Main Page || LinodeWiki:About || LinodeWiki:About || Multiple IPs || Multiple IPs || Multiple IPs || Talk:Multiple IPs || Multiple IPs || Multiple IPs
12:16@linbot New news from forums: Patches included in the linode linux kernel in General Discussion
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12:53huntz hi
12:54TehDan evening...
12:57huntz how can I test network performances with linode form europe?
12:58TehDan are you in europe?
12:58huntz yes :-)
12:58TehDan done a traceroute?
12:59huntz the virtual machines are on the same network of
12:59huntz with the same network firewall/shaping rules?
12:59TehDan probably similar, but try to get to an actual host
13:00TehDan if you're thinking of signing up try or so, because I think that's in the data center where the newest machines are
13:01TehDan I'm in the UK and have no complaints.... I don't really hammer it or anything though.
13:01huntz 20 hops
13:02huntz I need only some web sites for now...
13:02huntz with <3gb/mo of traffic
13:03TehDan I'd say you wouldn't have any worries....
13:05huntz r'u using whitebox linux on the uml?
13:05TehDan nope, I use debian
13:05huntz sarge?
13:05TehDan yes. what is whitebox linux?
13:06SupaDongzu it's red hat without all the trademark
13:06huntz based on RHEL 3.x
13:06TehDan ah right.... I think linode still calls it redhat regardless....
13:06huntz linode uses CentOS 3.1
13:07huntz like taolinux (my server distrib. of choice)
13:07TehDan list of available distros is here:
13:08huntz sure, thanks
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13:37@linbot New news from forums: Sendmail on ports 25 and 587 in Email/SMTP Related Forum
13:46rafx centos is nice if you need rhel compatible server. they keep the yum repository pretty up-to-date. but after trying debian sarge, i'm hooked. reminds me of freebsd days but on a much more popular os.
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14:29huntz bye
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14:30fo0bar woo, 2.4.29 released
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15:36rafx_ yea, i've been using it in my linode and it is much more stable than 2.4.29-rc1
15:38rafx_ has anyone been using 2.6.10-linode11 in their linode? any known issues crop up yet?
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15:53@linbot New news from forums: How to use less memory by replacing getty with fgetty in Linux Tips, Tricks, Tutorials
15:54* adamg goes to read
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16:54Darkone la di da
17:19adamg hmm
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17:30@linbot New news from forums: trying to make PPP conn. from windows with MPPE encryption in Linux Networking
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18:19DeviousTrap !seen caker
18:19@linbot DeviousTrap: caker was last seen here 22 hours, 11 minutes, and 36 seconds ago saying: <caker> tierra|w: something like that. I have an equally impressive collection of heatsinks
18:24adamg DeviousTrap caker has been around since then, ask a question and he might reply
18:26DeviousTrap I forgot my question already, lol
18:26DeviousTrap Its okay, I'll talk to him if he shows up
18:27DeviousTrap have a few thigns I want to discuss, mainly ram pricing :(
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18:28tierra|w like how you can either upgrade ram for the same price as just upgrading to a higher linode with the ram + extras?
18:30DeviousTrap No like my opinion of the current pricing and whether I can expect any changes to it anytime soon.
18:31tierra|w so something more along the lines of this?
18:31DeviousTrap Yes, just read that
18:31DeviousTrap Basically in my opinion his ram pricing is rediculous
18:31DeviousTrap $20 for 64mb, when jvds and others charge around $6-8
18:31SupaDongzu "ridiculous
18:31SupaDongzu "
18:31DeviousTrap same thing :P
18:32SupaDongzu there is no such thing as "redicule"
18:32SupaDongzu it's "ridicule"
18:32DeviousTrap LMAO - fine, you win
18:32SupaDongzu :D
18:32DeviousTrap Is caker the only staff member of Linode?
18:32SupaDongzu yep
18:32SupaDongzu we're all just trolls
18:33DeviousTrap As in in total - just him, and no other staf (whether on irc or not)
18:33SupaDongzu I don't know
18:33DeviousTrap I like the linode product
18:34DeviousTrap just they need to make the pricing more reasonable
18:34SupaDongzu well
18:34SupaDongzu realize that if he adds 64MB to your instance
18:34SupaDongzu that's one more linode64 he can't make :)
18:34DeviousTrap the first linode 64 price is good in my opinion, comparde to everyone else, but upgrades need to be more affodable
18:35DeviousTrap Of course, but he started linodes in June 2003
18:35tierra|w he may not have the amount of ram each host needs to be able to offer everyone those ram upgrades at that price
18:35DeviousTrap same exact amount of ram
18:35DeviousTrap since then RAM pricing has changed, as have OS and software requirements
18:35DeviousTrap as software and os'es progress and demand more ram, he needs to keep up with that demand
18:35SupaDongzu it hasn't changed *that* much
18:36tierra|w I still would argue the service is 10 times better than anywhere else, putting the physical limitations aside
18:36tierra|w you don't just pay for the hardware
18:36DeviousTrap From what I read on the forums support is slow
18:36DeviousTrap but I could care less
18:37DeviousTrap I don't need support
18:37DeviousTrap I love the control panel, plain and simple - but its overpriced
18:37tierra|w people are impatient and don't realize they could actually call the phone number
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18:37DeviousTrap Thats true, but helpdesk support is cheaper than phone support - shouldn't they strive to make helpdesk faster as its cheaper for them?
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18:38DeviousTrap Compare the min requirements between office xp and 2003
18:38DeviousTrap versions released two years apart
18:38SupaDongzu um
18:38DeviousTrap 72mb for one, 128mb for the other
18:38SupaDongzu but that's bloatware
18:39DeviousTrap I know linux is different
18:39* Redgore is away -( Out )- at 02:45p -( P:On / L:On )-
18:39DeviousTrap but there is still a growth
18:39SupaDongzu not always
18:39SupaDongzu 2.6 has made great strides in the VM
18:39SupaDongzu making requirements actually *shrink* in some instances
18:39DeviousTrap Yes it has, but 64mb is still very reasonable
18:39DeviousTrap I mean very small, lol
18:39DeviousTrap oops
18:39DeviousTrap Yes, the kernel makes it shrink
18:40tierra|w small? I run mail, and LAMP running under 64... I consider that pretty damn good
18:40DeviousTrap but as that happens php 5 comes out as does apache 2. With new coding features, and more people making websites, sites are getting more advanced and using more resources.
18:40SupaDongzu DeviousTrap: but that's not always the case
18:40SupaDongzu RAM consumption has leveled out some since 2001 or so
18:40tierra|w I hate to tell you, but yes, my 64 is running PHP5 and Apache2
18:40DeviousTrap You can get LAMP to run, but its a squeeze
18:40SupaDongzu I was running 64MB in 1998
18:41DeviousTrap No, mine is too
18:41@linbot ... but mine is a 110bps kit modem, DeviousTrap ...
18:41DeviousTrap I know its possible
18:41DeviousTrap Its just not ideal in my opinion
18:41tierra|w well, if your looking at running some e-commerce site off of $20/mo, that's kind of a joke if you ask me...
18:42SupaDongzu heh
18:42DeviousTrap I'm not doing anything too advanced
18:42DeviousTrap I have 6 dual xeon servers, I have plenty of room
18:42DeviousTrap Its not that
18:42* Redgore is back -( Out )- gone 8 hr 57 min 18 s
18:42DeviousTrap I'm just saying
18:43DeviousTrap take a look at jvds
18:43DeviousTrap how can they charge $6.40 for 64mb of ram and caker can't?
18:43adamg and take a look why people are leaving places like jvds to go to linode
18:43DeviousTrap I udnerstand that his special control panel gives him a premium for price
18:43DeviousTrap they are leaving the control panel
18:43DeviousTrap support at jvds is stellar
18:44DeviousTrap for the*
18:44DeviousTrap He can charge a premium for that control panel
18:44DeviousTrap but not 300% or so over what jvds charges
18:44DeviousTrap The product is not that much better
18:45adamg he can charge what he likes, he is still getting customers who are willing to pay the price, tis the joys of a free market
18:45tierra|w I've heard all sorts of shit about jvds support to be honest... never heard one good thing
18:45DeviousTrap I've heard the exact opposite :-\
18:45DeviousTrap Of course he can charge whatever he wants
18:45DeviousTrap but he should also compete with others in my opinion
18:45DeviousTrap look at what servint gives for $50 a month
18:45tierra|w I've seen numerous people join this channel coming from jvds, pissed
18:46DeviousTrap with a control panel included'
18:46DeviousTrap Ok, powervps, servint, dinix
18:46DeviousTrap tons of others
18:46tierra|w I don't want a control panel
18:46DeviousTrap Niether do I - I'm just demonstrating that it costs money to give, yet they still can
18:47tierra|w I've also heard about a lot of compatibility problems with jvds...
18:49DeviousTrap Its UML - what kind of incompatibilty?
18:49tierra|w I will agree that the ram upgrade prices aren't the best here, but they are what they are, and I'll simply take advantage of upgrading my plan if I really need that much more
18:49DeviousTrap I wouldn't even say that, I'd dare to say the worst :(
18:50DeviousTrap All I have here is a test box
18:50DeviousTrap I just want the ablity to burst to more ram a couple times a month
18:50DeviousTrap and thats not worth $20
18:50tierra|w then go use someone else... obviously caker doesn't want to let people do that on his machines
18:50* SupaDongzu shrugs
18:51SupaDongzu I dunno tierra|w
18:51DeviousTrap Judging by his post in the thread you linked
18:51DeviousTrap he does want people to do that
18:51SupaDongzu yeah
18:51DeviousTrap otherwise he wouldn't have said that pricies will be changing
18:51SupaDongzu a RAM burst threshold
18:51DeviousTrap and new machines would not have more ram
18:51adamg would not have more ram, the new machines do have more ram in
18:52DeviousTrap Thats what I said
18:52DeviousTrap tierra|w said he doesn't want people geting more ram
18:52DeviousTrap so I said that if he didn't then he wouldnt have new machines with large amounts of ram
18:52tierra|w from inference that ram upgrades are not priced cheap
18:52tierra|w not from hearing that from caker himself
18:53SupaDongzu I really think that caker is wise to this whole thing
18:54tierra|w I haven't read anything from him personally about plans for Linode other than "New host machines (starting with host39) do have 6GB of memory because I do anticipate increasing the default RAM included with all accounts, however at this time I can't give you any more details as to how much of an increase or when that will occur."
18:54DeviousTrap Exactly
18:54DeviousTrap then obiously they'll be increasing?
18:55DeviousTrap Am I reading that incorrectly?
18:55tierra|w and from that, I gather that he's still working up a solution for upgrading all existing customers ram at the same time, which is going to be one hell of a job
18:56tierra|w either from upgrades to the existing hosts (requiring downtimes for all), or from moving customers to the new machines releasing more ram to the others staying
18:56tierra|w or from both...
18:57DeviousTrap Nothing wrong with a 60second downtime to add ram
18:57SupaDongzu except that some folks have year-long uptimes
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18:58SupaDongzu and insist on running gentoo, which has buggy init scripts
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18:58DeviousTrap Is there a bragging right with year long uptimes?
18:58tierra|w I run gentoo on everything, and have never had a problem with init scripts... that's weird to hear for the first time
18:58mikegrb lolz
18:58DeviousTrap lol, I don't see any special advantage
18:58DeviousTrap give the user a week notice
18:58DeviousTrap and they'll set up the server to restart what they had running on reboot
18:58DeviousTrap seems pretty simple to me
18:59SupaDongzu tierra|w: hangon
18:59tierra|w point is, you have to notify all 1000 customers of planned downtimes, but then you also have to organize with ThePlanet and Hurricane Electric exactly what hosts are going down at what time, etc, etc
18:59DeviousTrap Its not a hard task
18:59DeviousTrap you email clients server by server
19:00DeviousTrap and do each server one at a time
19:00DeviousTrap I deal with the planet on a daily bassis
19:00DeviousTrap they'll work with you
19:00tierra|w You should start your own VPS service =)
19:00SupaDongzu 17:32 <SupaDongzu> and your web server doesn't start after a reboot?
19:00SupaDongzu 17:32 <btice> and a nice message telling me that my connection was refused
19:00SupaDongzu 17:32 <btice> I use gentoo -- the init scripts hang sometimes
19:00SupaDongzu 17:32 <btice> :-/
19:00SupaDongzu 17:32 <SupaDongzu> !!!!
19:00SupaDongzu 17:32 <tsi> init scripts hang?! that's a showstopper, dude
19:00SupaDongzu 17:32 <SupaDongzu> yeah
19:00SupaDongzu 17:32 <btice> caker said something about it being a known problem with UML
19:00SupaDongzu 17:32 <npmr> that's like strike five against gentoo on linode
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19:00tierra|w I've never had an init script hang... I don't know what his problem is
19:01DeviousTrap I don't have time to start a VPS service
19:01DeviousTrap otherwise I would
19:01DeviousTrap Right now I'll stick with reseller and dedicated hosting
19:01tierra|w I've had services I've had to zap (usually due to misconfiguration in conf files), but nothing like that
19:01SupaDongzu caker would know the story
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19:01SupaDongzu but anyway
19:02SupaDongzu that guy couldn't handle a reboot because he ran gentoo
19:02SupaDongzu end of story
19:02TehDan any idiot can misconfigure their server so it won't boot...
19:02tierra|w exactly
19:02TehDan gentoo ricers are especially guilty of this
19:03SupaDongzu yes it's true
19:03SupaDongzu however, note the bit about caker acknowledging the problem as being an interaction between gentoo and UML
19:03TehDan so probably not linode specific then?
19:03SupaDongzu the idiot who misconfigured this poor sap's server was the maintainer of whatever ebuild it is that hung
19:04SupaDongzu but anyway
19:04SupaDongzu that guy couldn't handle a reboot because he ran gentoo
19:04SupaDongzu yes it's true
19:04TehDan a lot of vps providers don't support gentoo, because its a bit ricker to run
19:04SupaDongzu end of story
19:04TehDan (tricker...)
19:04SupaDongzu I say this while typing from a laptop running gentoo
19:05tierra|w I like Gentoo, I'm not particularly fond of the type of people it attracts that think they're all the big linux elitists that like to have "heavily modified kernel drivers" or something gay like that
19:05TehDan nothing wrong with gentoo, most users don't really understand what it really allows you to do though
19:05tierra|w hence the "gentoo ricer" term came to be
19:06TehDan indeed. I'm not convinced its worth the hassle of doing a stage 1 install on a vps....
19:06tierra|w it attracts a ton of linux newbies that like to speak for the gentoo community as well
19:06TehDan yes....
19:06SupaDongzu enough about gentoo ricers
19:06mikegrb SupaDongzu is a ubuntu ricer
19:07SupaDongzu my point was that linode can't afford to just reboot everybody
19:07tierra|w I don't come in here trying to convince all the debian gurus to switch to gentoo...
19:07TehDan phasing in more ram shouldn't be to difficult - my host has lots spare... you'd probably just need to move a few willing users, and let the others reboot to apply their upgrade when they're ready
19:08SupaDongzu tierra|w: I'm not even going to ask what your point is. Just move on buddy
19:08tierra|w sorry... I get off on a big rant when everyone thinks I'm another one of these gentoo ricer newbs...
19:09SupaDongzu ???
19:09SupaDongzu You brought it up, dude
19:09TehDan I didn't say you were....
19:09SupaDongzu defensive, much?
19:09tierra|w well, I get a lot of shit from other people
19:09SupaDongzu great
19:09SupaDongzu give shit back to OTHER PEOPLE
19:09SupaDongzu thanks
19:09TehDan try lfs instead :)
19:10* SupaDongzu rolls his eyes
19:11* TehDan grins
19:12TehDan anyway, I can hear teeth being brushed... which means its my bed time... night.
19:12tierra|w your never really gave me the greatest impression of yourself earlier today when you went off on someone because they misspelled one word
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19:13SupaDongzu yeah, well the guy came in and from word one was attacking caker
19:13SupaDongzu in his absence
19:13SupaDongzu I was hoping to derail that
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19:22Ciaran Hi there.
19:22Ciaran caker - are you around?
19:22SupaDongzu seen caker?
19:22SupaDongzu linbot: seen caker?
19:22@linbot SupaDongzu: I have not seen caker?.
19:22SupaDongzu linbot: seen caker
19:22@linbot SupaDongzu: caker was last seen here 23 hours, 14 minutes, and 42 seconds ago saying: <caker> tierra|w: something like that. I have an equally impressive collection of heatsinks
19:22Ciaran linbot
19:22Ciaran Too late.
19:23SupaDongzu haha
19:23Ciaran Okay.
19:24Ciaran Hehe. Just wanted to get hold of him because I was looking through my account history and I think he undercharged me for the latest one. Meaning I owe him moneys.
19:24Ciaran Anyway. I'll wait 'til he's around, heh.
19:24SupaDongzu he should be on sometime soon
19:24Ciaran *nods*
19:24Ciaran Given that he was last seen 23 hours ago...
19:26Ciaran Oh, btw, it's apparently safe to eat your iPod Shuffle now.
19:26caker Ciaran: hello
19:26Ciaran They removed the bit that said "Do not eat iPod Shuffle" from the page.
19:26Ciaran caker: Hiya. :)
19:34* caker reads scrollback
19:35caker hmm
19:36caker well, I don't lose any sleep over competitors (yet). If jvds wants to oversell, or shoot himself in the foot by selling RAM for cheap, that's fine with me.
19:36caker It'll get him in the end
19:37caker mmm host41 and host42 are online
19:45Ciaran I used to be with JVDS. I moved from them to Linode, actually. :D
19:45Ciaran What were people saying before I came in? I missed it.
19:48Ciaran Actually, I can read it online, can't I? Silly me.
19:50SupaDongzu hehe
19:50SupaDongzu it wasn't all that exciting
19:50Ciaran Well, I thought I could. The links from are all 404 though. :(
19:50SupaDongzu someone came in telling caker to change his prices
19:50Ciaran And of course the logs on are only daily.
19:50Ciaran Ah.
20:08--- <<-- ossido [] has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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20:09jasonf SupaDongzu: why must people demand things?
20:09jasonf it's capitolism -- you don't like the product/price/support, don't buy it
20:09jasonf don't bitch about it, just don't buy it
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20:17caker Ciaran: always has the current day's irc logs, before they're rotated out
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21:21--- <<-- tierra|w [] has quit (Quit: <eco|w> With great promotion causing pseudo-illnesses comes great responsibility.)
21:27--- <<-- nyx [] has quit (Quit: Lost terminal)
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22:22mikegrb Downloaded 12.7MB in 7s (1750kB/s).
22:22mikegrb == good for theplanet
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22:25nyx evening/morning all :)
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22:55--- Netsplit <-> quits: besonen, NeonNero, fo0bar, Shaun, ElectricElf, claviola, fo0barf, Jeremy, Newsome, R0mMeL, (+2 more, use /NETSPLIT to show all of them)
22:56--- Netsplit over, joins: claviola, NeonNero, ossido, Newsome, ElectricElf, besonen, Jeremy, caker, fo0bar, R0mMeL (+2 more)
22:56--- Channel: mode/#linode [+o caker] by ChanServ
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22:59--- Netsplit over, joins: Jeremy
23:07fo0bar and it's got a parallel port! cause, you know, the dealbreaker is availability of the parallel port
23:07fo0bar oops, w/c
23:08fo0bar caker?
23:08@caker caker: yes?
23:13fo0bar caker: never mind, caker helped me out in /msg
23:21fo0bar caker: also, you should tell caker to lower his prices and add more ram
23:28mikegrb fo0bar: <3
23:29fo0bar heh
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23:38fo0bar caker: though I just noticed that both linode's and theplanet's reverse entries tracerouting out of there are whacked
23:38fo0bar Host not found: 3(NXDOMAIN)
23:38fo0bar Host not found: 3(NXDOMAIN)
23:38fo0bar Host not found: 3(NXDOMAIN)
23:38fo0bar Host not found: 3(NXDOMAIN)
23:46--- Netsplit <-> quits: R0mMeL, ElectricElf, david, ossido, besonen, NeonNero, fo0bar, Shaun, fo0barf, @caker, (+1 more, use /NETSPLIT to show all of them)
23:46--- Netsplit over, joins: @caker, ElectricElf, david, NeonNero, ossido, Newsome, besonen, fo0bar, R0mMeL, fo0barf (+1 more)
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---Logclosed Sat Jan 22 00:00:25 2005