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#linode IRC Logs for 2009-11-09

---Logopened Mon Nov 09 00:00:32 2009
---Daychanged Mon Nov 09 2009
00:00<jess^>mmm caffiene
00:01<jess^>oooh, hey!
00:01<jess^>i forgot _all_about_ finnix!
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00:12<linbot>New news from forums: Aftermath? in Backup Service Beta <> || Postfix virtual alias issues in Email/SMTP Related Forum <>
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00:18<linbot>New news from forums: Mysqldump leads to non-responsive linode in Linux, Apache, Mysql and PHP (LAMP) Forum <>
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00:33<kake26>hi all
00:42<jess^>it works.
00:43<kake26>I wanna make a firefox extn
00:43<Trystan>sounds useful
00:43<Trystan>for what....
00:44<kake26>There was a really good one Google made
00:44<kake26>used to love it allot and use it way to much
00:44<kake26>google notebook I think it was
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00:49*jed votes up bd_'s comment
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00:54<Peng>Comment where?
00:54<Peng>jess^: That much SVU can't be good for one's mental health.
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00:58*bd_ browses jed's deleted answers
00:58<@jed>bd_: I'm honestly surprised to see this answer (and defense of it) out of pax
00:58<jess^>Peng: it's quite possible that's true, i've been having nightmares lately
00:58<@jed>he's usually pretty knowledgeable
00:58<jess^>also, fuck cerebral palsy
00:58<jess^>it shouldn't take me ten minutes to take out my earrings
00:59<jess^>gimp hands plus small things equals HUGE ANNOYANCE
01:00<Keith>Is this just impossible? Or what. I've been googeling around for how to create a bootable USB stick so I can boot a Linux Iso off of it once extracted . But the problem is that all I have is a windows workstation;booting into a Linux OS to do so is completely impossible.
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01:00<@jed>don't have a CD writer?
01:00<Keith>Plus the fact taht Unetbootin (while probably a visually lovely application) is completely totally not useable by a screen-reading program at all.
01:00<jess^>wow, i must have _really_ busted my linode
01:01<Keith>jed: I do, but no media. :D
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01:01<bd_>jed: well, everyone has their blind spots.
01:01<@jed>finally, he deleted his answer
01:01<Keith>jed: And the other computer I'm trying to get an OS on has no OS at all on the drive. PXE booting is failing over here, so..
01:01<@jed>too bad someone else didn't vote him down so he could have gotten a Peer Pressure out of it
01:01<@jed>or is that -5
01:02<@jed>ah, -3
01:03<Keith>Poor Linode.
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01:05<linbot>New news from forums: Cannot get yum to see any php packages in Linux, Apache, Mysql and PHP (LAMP) Forum <>
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01:09<Peng>Oh, a StackExchange site?
01:09<bd_>stackoverflow, even
01:13<bob2>joel owns
01:13<Peng>Why is that sad?
01:13<@jed>it's joel spolsky.
01:14<Peng>He's one of the people involved in Stack Overflow, no?
01:14<@jed>doesn't mean I have to like him
01:14<@jed>he had a good idea, jeff atwood made a ... decent product out of it, off it goes
01:14<@jed>they're involved with it less and less, I gather
01:15<bob2>jed: you're just jealous that they're getting rich and all you get are points
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01:15<@jed>when a programmer's salary is 10x his SO points, we'll see who's laughing
01:15<@jed>that should happen in IT
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01:16<@jed>so bd can make $110k and I can work on my $31k, and be motivated
01:17<Peng>And I get...$10? Well, that buys a comic book, I guess.
01:17<bd_>jed: planning on proposing this to caker? ;)
01:18<bd_>somehow I think this may upset the motivational structure of the salary, however
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01:27<linbot>New news from forums: Optimize a 540: Tuning PHP/cgi+Apache/worker+APC+fcgid+MySQL in Performance and Tuning <>
01:27<RiverRat>Does anyone know if iptables knows the difference between eth0 and eth0:1 or should I just check the destination address for the difference?
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01:35<bob2>RiverRat: it does
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01:39<amitz>how do you deal with telemarketers?
01:40<amitz>I mean, in US, there seems to be a noticeable delay between me answering the phone and they answering me thus I can immediately know it's a telemarketer and just hangup. Not to mention the DNC list.
01:41<jess^>>_< *
01:42<Trystan>amitz: most telemarketers here are local, eg. Telstra calling to 'check everything with your service is ok' while trying to then upsell you
01:42<Trystan>the ones that are outside have stupid systems, like... ringing to me, i pickup, then the phone rings to get me to one of their staff
01:43<amitz>Trystan: that is actually what I was about to ask. These upsellers do direct call. No automated system thus hard to notice.
01:44<Trystan>the way i deal with them
01:44<amitz>s/notice/identify for hanging up purposes/
01:44<Trystan>them 'hello is this Mr blah'
01:44<Trystan>me 'yea, speaking'
01:45<Trystan>them 'this is blah from telstra, before we continue i need to advised you that this call may be recorded for training and quality assurance purposes, for privacy reasons i will need you to confirm some information to ensure I am speaking to the account holder'
01:46<Trystan>me 'I know who I am... but I have no bloody clue who you are, if you think i am going to identify myself to someone calling ME then you are insane, thats the whole purpose of the privacy questions, to ensure that it is somewhat private information, if i gave it to anyone calling saying they were from telstra well...'
01:46<Trystan>phone call normally ends pretty quickly there after
01:46<Trystan>had one say 'i can provide you with information so you can ensure who we are'
01:47<Trystan>to which i queried WHAT information he could provide me about my account that wasnt public knowledge that was OUTSIDE of the privacy act'
01:47<amitz>hmmm I see :-). My approach so far is:
01:48<jess^>something good may come out of this
01:48<Trystan>out of what
01:48<jess^>one of my boxes going tits-up
01:48<Keith>A Linode?
01:48<Trystan>i read tits first, then after re reading that line, it was completly less interesting than originally thought
01:50<amitz>1. I answer with a somewhat committed "mmm". Then they will talk about what product they want to sell. Then I'll say, "sorry, I'm not him". To this day, they never say "I thought you claimed you're him". But the drawback of this approach is they will call later.
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01:52<amitz>2. I answer "yeah". Then they will tell about that product. Then I say "I'm not interested" or "I'm busy". well... this is the boring approach :-p
01:52<Trystan>i normally just say not interested thanks
01:52<Trystan>when an ISP calls
01:52<Trystan>it always amuses the shit out of me
01:52<Trystan>because I previously worked for one
01:52<Trystan>so whenever one called
01:52<Trystan>they would ask if i have internet
01:52<Trystan>etc. etc.
01:52<Trystan>'we can give you a better price'
01:53<Trystan>me 'are you sure'
01:53<linbot>New news from forums: SSH fingerprints on "Console" page in Feature Request/Bug Report <>
01:53<Trystan>them 'positive'
01:53<Trystan>me 'my net is free..'
01:53<Trystan>before that i had one call and slander the ISP I was with
01:53<amitz>and they just.. oh...thrown out of the script loop? :-p
01:54<Trystan>'from what I hear their service is pretty unreliable'
01:54<jess^>comes up under single user mode *dance dance dance*
01:54<Trystan>when it was one of the best ISPs i had been with (and the ISP calling had a reputation of being shit)
01:54<Trystan>asked to speak to manager
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01:54<Trystan>more so to suggest they dont use that method,
01:54<Trystan>but manager tried swearing at me
01:54<Trystan>called company directly
01:55<Trystan>(after telling me there was no one above him in the entire company, even though he was a outsourced call center worker)
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01:55<amitz>woah, you hate telemarketers more passionately than I do ;-)
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01:57<Trystan>amitz: i dont hate them
01:57<Trystan>i hate the assholes in them
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01:57<Trystan>i will NEVER abuse a telemarketer who is just being polite and doing their job
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01:58<Trystan>but i do have fun sometimes
01:58<@jed>whoo, SO is broken
01:58<jess^>lol. remember how i said i was lazy and hadn't created a key for lish?
01:58<jess^>guess what i'm doing? lol
01:58<Trystan>being lazy and not creating a key?
01:59<jess^>creating a key. ajax_console--;
01:59<@jed>you can set a password for LISH too
01:59*jed fishes
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02:01<amitz>Trystan: some telemarketers or their bosses loss perspective at what they do. I mean, a bank tried to upsell me their loan program while I have a saving account there. WTF, that's moronic.
02:02<kake26>If I where really lazy what distro should I use?
02:02<Trystan>lol yea
02:02<@array>kake26: debian :)
02:02<kake26>I use ubuntu currently
02:02<@jed>stick with ubuntu
02:02<@array>ubuntu is fine too
02:02<@jed>it's laziness-friendliest of them all
02:02<@jed>debian's just further behind.
02:03<pukeko>Citadel ... ive just found out about it today... how popular is it ... i'm wondering why i hadn't ever heard of it ?
02:03<kake26>love it
02:03<kake26>Used it a long time
02:04<pukeko>lots of users multiple sites ?
02:04<kake26>Its a groupware system
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02:05<kake26>Think basically open source exchange alternative
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02:06-!-ServerMode/#linode [+o pparadis] by
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02:06<kake26>lol netsplit
02:06<@pparadis>aww schnap
02:06<amitz>mmm schnap?
02:07<pukeko>can the webcit be "skinned" ?
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02:07<kake26>via CSS
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02:07<pukeko>any links to examples ... : )
02:08<kake26>yes they should have some one the main page for citadel
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02:08<kake26>I have not done it myself since I have had no need do it
02:09<pukeko>i don't understand why i hadn't heard of it before ... i no interweb spring chicken
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02:09<pukeko>especialy if it *just works*
02:09<kake26>Well it might be because these things you tend to not find unless you look
02:09<jess^>thank god for public ip's
02:09<jess^>at least _SOMETHING_ works
02:10<@pparadis>It Works If You Work It But You've Gotta Work It Every Day
02:10*pparadis waits for someone to say "I'll drink to that!"
02:11<kake26>If I can find a beer I'll drink to that!
02:11<pukeko>unlike building Cyrus and friends on early fedora boxes - with dependency hell
02:11<kake26>Citadel is brainless to setup
02:11<kake26>I mean I know postfix and stuff but I'm lazy
02:14<jess^>mmmmmmmmm yes
02:14<pukeko>can you point another webmail client at it like squirrelmail ?
02:14<kake26>I've done it
02:14<jess^>citadel is delicious
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02:15<pukeko>can you "point" it at beep to play tunes on events ?
02:17<pukeko>incomming mail beeping frenzy
02:19<linbot>New news from linodelibrary: Using Citadel Groupware on Ubuntu 9.04 (Jaunty) <> || Using Citadel Groupware on Debian 5.0 (Lenny) <>
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02:24<jamjam>hey, all. Quick question: are current fedora boxes also expected to be more trouble than, say, debian?
02:25<amitz>fedore is more bleeding age than debian, IIRC.
02:25<@pparadis>amitz: that is _quite_ correct.
02:26*pparadis does not recommend running production servers on fedora.
02:26<amitz>nor ubuntu.
02:26*amitz runs faaast
02:26<@pparadis>i use debian.
02:26*amitz hides.
02:27*jess^ doesn't reccomend any production servers which use redhat in any format.
02:27<amitz>jamjam: for what it's worth, I use debian too.
02:27<@pparadis>jess^: +1
02:27<jamjam>:-) thx. Looks like I may have some fiddling to do next weekend...
02:27<@pparadis>although centos is good for shops that already have RHEL deployed.
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02:28-!-mode/#linode [+v array] by ChanServ
02:28-!-mode/#linode [+v irgeek] by ChanServ
02:28-!-mode/#linode [+v jed] by ChanServ
02:28-!-mode/#linode [+v tasaro] by ChanServ
02:28-!-mode/#linode [+o restelow] by ChanServ
02:28*pukeko "retired" his last fedora a month ago
02:28<jess^>why is lish saying my box isn't runni---- ohhhhhh because it isn't
02:28*jess^ sheepishly presses 'boot'
02:29*amitz upgraded his last debian etch 1 month ago.
02:29<kake26>debian is too outdated
02:30<@pparadis>kake26: orly?
02:30<@pparadis>[citation needed for most server tasks]
02:30<kake26>one reasons i like ubuntu better
02:31<@pparadis>are you referring to specific packages?
02:31<amitz>kake26: debian is the only distro I had tried that always work flawlessly between updates (not version update).
02:31<jess^>pparadis: i'm sorry. my roomie is a perfectionist, and if it isn't bleeding-edge he thinks it's old.
02:31<@pparadis>meanwhile, my servers get mad uptime.
02:31<Trystan>how long?
02:31<@pparadis>i've had debian boxes go three years.
02:31<Trystan>let me guess
02:32<@pparadis>power outage and UPS dying finally did one of them in.
02:32<Trystan>you took it down to update to the next version? :D
02:32<@pparadis>that was another reason :)
02:32<Trystan>i actually like that about debian
02:32<Trystan>i find ubuntu push to much to get a release
02:32<Trystan>regardless of potential issues
02:32<amitz>jess^: your friend may likes ubuntu then :-)
02:33<@pparadis>here's the deal: unless people actually need a specific feature that they can't get in the debian repo version, there's no need to mess with it. also, security fixes are backported.
02:33*pparadis admits he does run ubuntu on a deskopt, though.
02:33<@pparadis>desktop, even
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02:36<amitz>kake26: but I must admit that ubuntu will set you up for many stuff with little effort.
02:36<rogi_>pparadis: What do you gain by going ubuntu on desktops instead os debian?
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02:37<rogi_>of, even
02:37<amitz>but debian will reap the benefit in the next cycle :-p.
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02:37<amitz>of release.
02:38<rogi_>I was thinking of trying debian on my desktops as well as my servers
02:38<@pparadis>rogi_: that's one area where i actually use newer package versions.
02:38<@pparadis>debian still makes a fine desktop.
02:38<amitz>rogi_: bleeding edge applications :-p. Prettier default desktop. :-)
02:38<@pparadis>oh, and restricted drivers.
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02:39<amitz>rogi_: and number one appeal for me is, no need to configure everything to get that bleeding edge apps.
02:39<rogi_>I'm on debian for servers and ubuntu for desktops, was wondering how much different debian was on desktops
02:39<amitz>+10 to pparadis. REstricted driver with no thinking, easy on the mind.
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02:39<@pparadis>friend of mine recently installed lenny on his laptop, and it actually supported all the hardware without screwing around with it. YMMV.
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02:40<amitz>and some hardware sold recently explicitly declare ubuntu as their reference of "working in linux".
02:40<@pparadis>ubuntu's got brand juice.
02:41<amitz>and plenty of tutorials.
02:41<rogi_>that's what I have been hearing recently (that debian pretty much 'just works') on desktops as from lenny
02:41<amitz>on more variety of hardwares.
02:42<@pparadis>rogi_: i certainly wouldn't discourage you from trying debian on a desktop first. i just happen to prefer ubuntu for my needs on the desktop, and i actually spend most of my time in MacOS X anyhow.
02:42<amitz>rogi_: I'd argue that the "just works" is the left over from the previously released ubuntu at any moment of time.
02:43<rogi_>Thinking about it, ubuntu is working so well on my laptops that a change to debian would prolly be pointless anyway...
02:44<rogi_>plus I don't fancy going through wireless driver hell with debian, ubuntu was bad enough :)
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02:44<amitz>rogi_: there is actually suse and mandrake. I can testify that Suse was good.
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02:45<amitz>but prone to dependency hell..
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02:48<rogi_>amitz: I've never used anything other than debian and ubuntu, other than (IIRC) mandrake about 5 years ago.
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02:50<rogi_>wasn't it mandrake that was supposed to become the 'it just works' distro 'for the people' that ubuntu is these days?
02:50<tkoskine>I found OpenSUSE 10.0 pretty buggy. After that I haven't touched it. (Used it as a desktop at work for a few months.)
02:54<amitz>tkoskine: OpenSUSE probably more bleeding edge too. A testing ground before it enters the "non-free-as-in-beer" edition of suse? I used the paying one (before they even have opensuse) and it works well.
02:54<amitz>Fedora seems to be testing ground of RedHat too.
02:56<amitz>rogi_: my friend used mandrake. He said it just works for him, even more than ubuntu :-)
02:56<linbot>New news from linodelibrary: Using Citadel Groupware on Ubuntu 9.10 (Karmic) <>
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03:02<rogi_>amitz: yea, i'm guessing tha mandrake just has a smaller public relations department. :)
03:03<rogi_>which is not to say that i don't think that ubuntu is good
03:03<pukeko>xchat... is there a way to "sort" output of /list ?
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03:04*rogi_ avoids trouble with anyone who is somewhat bizarrely, defensive about any particular distro
03:07<rogi_>Is it true that multiple linodes under the same account can share bandwidth (i.e with a 360 and a 540 you have 500 gigs to play with)?
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03:18<Peng>rogi_: s/can/do/, yes.
03:18*Peng goes back to being /away
03:19<rogi_>amitz: even if the 'nodes are in different dc's?
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03:28<pukeko>citadel.. daily backups .. can it be done with something as simple as rdiff-backup ?
03:32<pukeko>like say the boss wants an email they deleted last week ... do you create another citadel running on another port and use rdiff-backup to to restore last weeks ... ?
03:33<pukeko>or is there a "better" way ?
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03:38<Peng>rogi_: Um, I think so, but I'm not totally sure. Sorry.
03:41<rogi_>Peng: ok thanks. Sorry was typing too quick earlier and converted you to being Amitz. :)
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05:32<MarkQtty>Hi folks
05:34<MarkQtty>today we are experiencing ome strange problem on newark20
05:34<MarkQtty>the server load it's not stable...
05:34<tozz>why would the load be stable?
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05:45<MarkQtty>yes because we have two vps on the same host (newark20)
05:45<MarkQtty>and both have a big up and down on the server load...
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05:49<Trystan>MarkQtty: have you put a ticket in? Not sure who is around at this time, but thats probably the best method if you suspect something is up
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05:51<MarkQtty>no yet, because at this time the problem is not a real warning....for example now both systems works fine...
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05:52<MarkQtty>if I look that the problem persist...i will open a ticket..
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05:53<Keith>Is there any situations where running your own hardware would be better than any VPS system?
05:54<Trystan>Keith: yes
05:54<bob2>vps provider is another thing to trust
05:55<bob2>and it's most likely another level of inefficiency (e.g. virtio is slower than real io)
05:55<Keith>MarkQtty: Server machines aren't necessarily always in an idle state of operation. Remember, you're on a VPS, not raw physical hardware where you are the only one using it.
05:55<Trystan>yea, something with high io would be my first example
05:56<MarkQtty>ok Keith, if I look that the problem persist I will open a trouble ticket....thank's
05:57<Keith>VPS machines might be good in most cases. But what do you do when an ISP blocks port 25, preventing you from talking to other mail servers, for instance? Or, suppose you are unable to find an ISP who won't block ports (not common here anyways) that kind of thing, and your the type that likes to physically run servers physically?
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05:58<internat>you actually should put a ticket in and get them to move one of your nodes to another host.
05:58<Keith>Port stuff is the one thing Linode solvs. But when it comes to I/O in general, and such..
05:58<internat>if you have two on the same host, kinda kills all levels of redundancy etc
05:58<Keith>Ballencing out those two is interesting.
05:58<bob2>Keith: oh, were you comparing vps against "server at home"?
05:58<Keith>bob2: Yes, I was.
05:59<Trystan>i thought you were just comparing virtual to real
05:59<Trystan>my bad :)
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06:01<Keith>Only issue with an operated server in a home situation is well...Once, I was running a website on port 80. One day, no external connections were made possible, so I attempted running on port 8080, easily bypassing the block. Then, when I attempted to run an eamil system, discovered that outbound port 25 (the general mail talking port) wasn't accessible, so nothing else could communicate with the mail system.
06:02<Keith>And various things like taht. I called my ISP back then, asking if they could open port 25. The statement was a flat No, stating that port 25 was blocking zombie machines from spamming the ISP network.
06:03<Keith>I then wondered: "What now?" So on May 9th of this year, I signed up with a Linode. So far it's been great. But sometmies, I wish I had physical control of hardware that wasn't in use by a lot of nodes. Can't aford to pay for a high-end Linode, or else I'd upgrade.
06:03<Keith>So that's why I started comparing home servers to Linode VPS based servers.
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06:08<Talman|Ghosting>... Wait.
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06:08<Talman>You'd like physical control of what?
06:09<Keith>An actual box that runs everything. Or in the VPS case, just to have one box, with one Node, with one user (myself) running all services-but as I stated before..
06:14<Yaakov>Keith: What is the advantage of being the only user on the host?
06:19<tozz>you're the only user on the host
06:19<tozz>should be pretty clear :)
06:19<Talman>Yeah, I'm not really seeing the difference between my zen instance and a physical box.
06:20<Talman>Are you going to do something that eats up 100% of the host machine's CPU?
06:20<Yaakov>tozz: No, it isn't.
06:21<Yaakov>Since there is no capacity issue involved I cannot see any value to not sharing the host.
06:21<tozz>for you maybe
06:21<Yaakov>tozz: Keith has no issue with capacity, so for him too.
06:21<tozz>but not knowing when someone else is gonna run folding@home at your host you can't really plan for expansions
06:22<@mikegrb>mmm cake
06:22<Talman>tozz: If someone pegs the host processors, caker will detect it and take away their cake.
06:22<tozz>why? Xen should handle that
06:22<tozz>it's just that you will get less
06:22<tozz>hence, shared
06:22<Yaakov>tozz: That's not very convincing. You can migrate at any time if you need more capacity. In any case, why would someone hogging CPU cause you to change your future planning?
06:23<tozz>cause load is usually something you see increase over time
06:24<Yaakov>Well, I can't see any merit in your argument at all. You aren't really making a rationale, and you don't intend to do so. So, it's an impasse.
06:24<tozz>how many large scale sites do you run?
06:24<Yaakov>tozz: Keith doesn't run a "large scale site".
06:24<Yaakov>tozz: Note that I pointed out capacity is not an issue.
06:25<tozz>no, but he isn't saying I don't have any merit either
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06:25<Yaakov>tozz: I said your ARGUMENT has no merit. This was a discussion of Keith's case. And, appeal to authority is not an logical argument.
06:25<tozz>you asked what the benefit of being the only user on the host is
06:25<tozz>and I told you
06:26<Yaakov>tozz: I asked KEITH what the benefit is. There is no general case here. This is a specific case, and scaling is done for a reason.
06:26<Yaakov>There would be NO ADVANTAGE to Keith, even if he had unlimited funds, to be on a host by himself.
06:26<Yaakov>Literally none.
06:28<tozz>There's always an advantage with having your own hardware, just as there is an disadvantage
06:28<Talman>Ok, what is this advantage to having your own hardware?
06:28<Talman>Don't say, "There's an advantage," list the advantages.
06:28<Trystan>disk i/o
06:29<bob2>disk i/o
06:29<tozz>control at the hardware level, upgrade points for weak points instead of complete upgrades. Need Nehalem, go get it
06:29<bob2>not having to trust the vps provider
06:29<bob2>not having to share
06:29<megatron27>Talman: you can brag about it when you pick up women
06:29<Trystan>garanteed (non shared) cpu
06:29<bob2>for most people it does not matter
06:29<bob2>for some it does
06:29<Talman>Trusting the vps provider, though... You eventually have to trust someone.
06:29<Yaakov>Keith said, "or a single VPS running on a host". He simply wants to be the ony user for no good reason. It is an emotional thing, nothing rational about it.
06:30<megatron27>dedicated hardware even if you have absolutely no plans on using the excess capacity :-?
06:30<Talman>Unless you're prepared to have a OC line run into your secure storage facility.
06:30<bob2>as above
06:30<bob2>I'm mostly interested in shooting down your silly generalisation :)(
06:31<Yaakov>Things are "advantages" if and only if the cost is justified by the benefit. There is no unipolar reality here. There are benefits and their concomitant costs.
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06:31<Peng>Having a host to yourself *is* better. Whether it's necessary, a noticeable benefit for your load, and worth the cost are different issues.
06:32<Yaakov>Peng: You neglect to define "better".
06:32<Peng>Yaakov: :D
06:32<Yaakov>Peng: You cannot have a host to yourself without PAYING for it. If you don't need it, it is CLEARLY not "better" in any *useful* way.
06:33<Trystan>Yaakov: if you dont need it, its not
06:33<Trystan>thats not what is being said
06:33<Yaakov>Peng: And, if somehow you could get it anyway, and you CANNOT DETECT the difference, how is it *better*?
06:33<megatron27>unless you need to be in complete control of everything which I don't know whether Keith wanted or not
06:33<Trystan>we are saying there ARE situations that need it and can clearly justify the cost
06:33<Yaakov>Trystan: Scroll back, that is precisely what is being said.
06:34<Yaakov>Trystan: If you NEED it and can justify the cost, then you aren't part of this discussion. This is about "always better".
06:34<Yaakov>And, it is not. Full stop.
06:34<Trystan>oh, then I agree
06:34<Talman>That's my question. Why is it 'always better.'
06:34<Yaakov>That's the kind of analysis that would get you off *my* project.
06:34<tozz>of course it is, but you're mixing in all kinds of different scenarios
06:34<Talman>I'm not running classified materials on my linode.
06:34<Peng>Yaakov: I agree. Um. I just think that, like, driving to the grocery store 0.1 seconds faster _is_ better. It's not useful, or detectable, so functionally it's the same, but it's still better, even if there's no value to its betterness.
06:34<Talman>If I were, I think caker would poop himself.
06:34<megatron27>damn, you have to choose your words wisely when talking to Yaakov
06:34<tozz>Peng: tell that to Amazon
06:35<Talman>megatron27, even I picked up on 'always better'
06:35<tozz>they lost 1% of their sales due to 0.1seconds delay
06:35<megatron27>just saying
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06:35<Yaakov>Peng: No, "better" means you can benefit. .1 seconds faster provides no such benefit.
06:35<Trystan>tozz: its fair to say they have a justifable reason
06:35<Trystan>Yaakov: i disagree
06:35<tozz>0.1 seconds is a very long time for an online store actually
06:35<Trystan>.1 second faster in numerous continous tasks would over time give a noticable benifit
06:36<Trystan>.1 in tasks run infrequently would be irrelevent
06:36<Yaakov>OK, silly time is here. Time to resign from this.
06:36<Peng>Yaakov: I never said my point of view wasn't silly. ;-P
06:36<Peng>I just think it's a distinction worth making.
06:36<Talman>I think the benefit depends on resolution.
06:37<tozz>Trystan: actually, anyone who makes a web page has a reason to care about 0.1seconds/view
06:37<Trystan>i think the benifit depends on each individual situation
06:37<Talman>I mean, if you're dealing with transactions that are measured in nanoseconds, then yeah, .1 is a big deal.
06:37<Trystan>tozz: if its my personal blog i couldnt give a shit
06:37<megatron27>Somebody is wrong on the Internet!
06:37<Peng>megatron27: Let's kill 'em!
06:37<Trystan>if its a corperate website then it would be something i consider
06:37<Trystan>its a situational thing
06:37<Talman>If its getting to the store, then no, I don't think I care.
06:37<tozz>Trystan: ok, if we're talking om about commericaly related web sites then
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06:37<Peng>Anyway, I was watching TV. See ya. :D
06:37<Trystan>then yea, I would tend to agree
06:37<Talman>But that .1 delay could make some bluehair click the button twice.
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06:38<Talman>Which means an exception, and more work for me.
06:38<Yaakov>Peng: If you cannot derive an advantage from something there is no sense in calling it "better".
06:38<Yaakov>Peng: You need to really consider what "better" means. It is actually an entirely pragmatic word.
06:38<Trystan>yaakov, I have a car that can do 110km/hour, that is the speed limit
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06:39<Trystan>there are cars on the market that can do 120km/hour
06:39<Trystan>they cannot do it legally/in most situations, therefore they are not better?
06:39<Trystan>personally I would say it is better but not required
06:40<Yaakov>Trystan: If the top speed is the only difference then they are not "better" for use by you. If they can, for example accelerate faster and the top speed is higher on account of the engine's greater power, then they might be better for you.
06:41<Yaakov>Things are better for PARTICULAR USES, not in the abstract. It is pragmatic.
06:41<BarkerJr>maybe they drive up mountains better
06:41<Yaakov>BarkerJr: Again, that is a PARTICULAR use.
06:41<Trystan>but it.. is better
06:41<Trystan>under particular situations
06:41<tozz>you could divide everything into particular uses then
06:41<Trystan>but not required
06:41<tozz>and nothing would be better than anything else
06:42<Yaakov>tozz: That's false.
06:42<Yaakov>better 1 |ˈbetər|
06:42<Yaakov>1 comparative of good and well .
06:42<Yaakov>• of a more excellent or effective type or quality
06:42<tozz>so if my hardware is better than linodes having my own box is better
06:43<tozz>since the quality is better
06:43<Yaakov>When we use the word "better" in relationship to physical devices, it clearly means "more effective". Effectiveness is a matter of the INTENDED EFFECT. Some other effect is irrelevant.
06:43<tozz>or "more excellent"
06:43<tozz>does it?
06:43<BarkerJr>I like partibular uses *just woke up*
06:44<Yaakov>tozz: No, you are wrong. The truth is you can't actually understand my argument and you are not arguing against it at all.
06:44<Yaakov>So, now I really will go do something *better*.
06:44<tozz>yeah, here we go with the "you're wrong"
06:44<Yaakov>You are. Flat out. Wrong.
06:44<tozz>I understand that you probably have no concept of hardware or managing servers :)
06:44<Trystan>in your opinion
06:44<Yaakov>Trystan: Of course.
06:44<tozz>hence you lack of understanding the better part of owning the hardware
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06:46<Yaakov>tozz: I will point out that you have not stated a single PRACTICAL advantage concerning the case at hand. You assert that it is "better" and don't show why, KEITH, would benefit. That's the conversation you jumped into.
06:46<Yaakov>In any case, I really do need to go do *better* things with my time. Namely, work.
06:47<tozz>ok, so running a commercial site is not a practical advantage
06:47<tozz>good to know
06:47<Peng>Yaakov: Hmm, that's a good point.
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06:47<Trystan>Peng: about better things to do?
06:47<Peng>Trystan: No way. What could be more important than Internet wrongness?
06:48<Trystan>internet rightness?
06:48<Peng>Yaakov: I like to think of myself as pragmatic (to an extent; I'm not Spock, and that wouldn't be fun anyway), so I think you're right about the definition of "better". However, I still like to keep differences in mind, even if they don't have any value.
06:49<Peng>(Not that Spock is very Spocky, but that's aside from the point.)
06:50<tozz>"Is there any situations where running your own hardware would be better than any VPS system?"
06:50<tozz>11:53 CET
06:50<tozz>the original question
06:50<tozz>I think we can sum it up with a "yes"
06:51<Trystan>thats the question i originally saw/was discussing
06:51<Trystan>for the most part
06:51<tozz>yeah but then Yaakov went all "IT'S ALL ABOUT KEITH"
06:51<tozz>so it might have gotten lost
06:52<tozz>time for lunch
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06:53<BarkerJr>embrace diversity!
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07:02<linbot>New news from forums: Contract term length? in Sales Questions and Answers <>
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07:18<linbot>New news from forums: Local Firewall Management in Sales Questions and Answers <>
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07:24<linbot>New news from forums: Take me to your PayPal - Better I pay you for a Debian 360 in Sales Questions and Answers <>
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07:52<rainman`>how is that forum post strange? :)
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07:54<BarkerJr>the subject is funny
07:55<rainman`>i wonder how much he'd be willing to pay
07:57<BarkerJr>oh, I didn't get the impression he was willing to pay
07:57<X-LP>neither did i
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07:59<internat>wati. if he's not going to pay, whats the point of paypal in it?
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08:02<HoopyCat>paypal is bidirectional
08:02<HoopyCat>i'll let you pay me for the opportunity to gain experience with systems administration on my systems
08:02*HoopyCat 's mother monitor makes a soft crackling sound, and the image of the attorney general appears
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08:03<HoopyCat>...... anyone got a stamp? i think i should just mail it in today.
08:04<internat>HoopyCat, you in au?
08:04<zed>i want to increace max. concurrent connections in MySQL database how to do this...?
08:04<HoopyCat>internat: no. if i were, i'd have missed the last pickup of the day and wouldn't be able to mail it in, right?
08:05<Trystan>technically, it just turned a new day
08:05<internat>i was going to ask if it was for the R18 thing..
08:05<Trystan>so you would have hours to get it posted
08:06<HoopyCat>zed: i believe it would be max_connections=integer in the [mysqld] section of /etc/mysql/my.cnf
08:07<Trystan>internat: whats this about the r18?
08:07<Trystan>is there a letter i should be submitting to someone?
08:07<zed>HoopyCat: let me chk it
08:09<internat>Trystan: yeah
08:09<internat>and HoopyCat: im still confused
08:09<Trystan>might as well do it
08:09<Trystan>its not just copy and paste! :(
08:09<internat>its change 4 fields :P
08:10<HoopyCat>internat: it is 8:09am here, i just sat down to be funny, and one of the first things i do is typo "mother" instead of "other"
08:10<chesty>red bull
08:10<internat>HoopyCat: that wasnt why i asked.. i asked cause you mentioned the attorney general.
08:10<internat>since the r18 thing is going to the AG.
08:11<HoopyCat>internat: oh! i mentioned the attorney general because i concocted a scheme whereby someone could pay me to do work for me, thus inverting the typical labor cash flow
08:11<internat>yeah i think we were confusing each other :)
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08:11<HoopyCat>internat: speak for yourself! i'm not confused. :-)
08:12<zed>@HoopyCat: it written #max_connections=100 shud i remove # ???
08:12<internat>s/confused/off in different tangents/g
08:12<HoopyCat>zed: probably
08:12<chesty>100 connections? ouch, that's a 28800 i hope
08:13<HoopyCat>zed: ... and of course adjust it to a suitable value in your situation
08:13<zed>am setting it to 500
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08:13<zed>actually i need more then 200 concurrent connections at a time
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08:14<elo>greetins fellow homsapiens
08:16<Peng>are homsapiens related to homsar?
08:16<HoopyCat>zed: i'm not sure how mysqld allocates memory per-connection, but keep an eye on it just to make sure you've got enough memory as you get near the limit
08:17<xrfang>what is the "linode manager"? I mean, is it a tool running outside of the linode vps, or it is a tool like cpanel? While I setup a vps, I would like it to be "clean" without any 3rd party stuff like cpanel etc, is that the case?
08:18<Peng>xrfang: It's on Your VPS is about as clean as can be.
08:18<HoopyCat>xrfang: the linode manager exists outside the VPS... it lets you control the "hardware", so to speak. the actual images will likely surprise you with their cleanliness. (they're stock minimal installs)
08:19<Peng>Actually, sometimes they remove stuff from the stock minimal installs.
08:19<xrfang>but I see in the forum which told a customer to use linode manager to "setup dns"... abit confused.
08:19<HoopyCat>Peng: dpkg-jenga :-)
08:21<Peng>xrfang: Linode runs a hosted DNS service.
08:21<HoopyCat>xrfang: if you need it, linode has a set of dns servers in diverse locales for authorative dns... this is configured through the dns manager. you don't HAVE to use it, but it's cheaper than getting a second linode for a secondary nameserver
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08:22<xrfang>I would like to have a 2nd dns, if that is convenient... anyway I have my primary dns running on my vps now -- considering a full switch over
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08:22<HoopyCat>xrfang: you can also set it to slave the zone from your nameserver and get the redundancy without all the hippie pointy-clicky feel-good web interface stuff. :-) (there's also an API.)
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08:23<xrfang>hoopycat: is the "dns service" free of charge, if I have a linode? and it runs by linode and has nothing to do with my vps, right?
08:23<Peng>xrfang: Yes.
08:24<xrfang>thanks! I will consider using it as 2nd
08:24<HoopyCat>xrfang: yes, and yes (although if you cancel your last remaining linode, it'll stop serving the domains)
08:24<xrfang>that's natural, if the node is canceled, what's the point of dns there? ;)
08:25<HoopyCat>so technically, it isn't free, but it's included at no charge with your linode service. :-)
08:25<Trystan>value added service :)
08:25<HoopyCat>No Public Restrooms -- Restrooms For Paying Customers Only !!
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08:26<Trystan>that ok
08:26<Trystan>i'll piss in the lobby
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08:32<HoopyCat>our credit union is in the next building over from the local pub, and its parking lot is clearly signed to indicate it is for customers only. obviously, they're closed during prime pubbing times. if we plan to use our debit card at the pub, which would create some income for the credit union, that technically makes us a customer, right?
08:34<HoopyCat>so we can park there and get suitably indignant (while already tired and emotional, so to speak) when the vigilante towing mercenaries abscond with our humble motorcar?
08:34<Trystan>define customer
08:34*HoopyCat has been banned from the philosophy department, why do you ask?
08:35<HoopyCat>Trystan: you know what? technically speaking, we're shareholders. we own the damned credit union, and by extension, the parking lot.
08:35<Trystan>because to me, Customers are customers at all times as long as there is continual business
08:35-!-Twayne [] has joined #linode
08:35<Trystan>which having an account would be
08:35-!-bbeausej [] has joined #linode
08:35<Trystan>im assuming the sign doesnt indicate you must be doing a transaction in the building at that time
08:35<Trystan>i would get up them about it
08:35<Trystan>'i'm a customer, i parked in there as the sign indicated it is for customers, and i got towed'
08:36<Trystan>since you said pub im gonna assume you're a pom
08:36<Peng>IMo you'd be violating the spirit of the sign, if not the letters.
08:36<HoopyCat>Trystan: the sign is somewhat faded and covered in stencil graffiti, so i am technically extrapolating from similar signs that are endemic to the region
08:37<Trystan>Peng: if the park is being used, and cleared before bank business hours then it is a bit over the top IMHO
08:37<Peng>Trystan: Ah, I forgot about that (sleepy).
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08:38<HoopyCat>Trystan: i am not a pom, although the owner of the pub is.
08:39<amitz>woah, interesting topic.
08:39-!-linville [] has joined #linode
08:39<Trystan>alcohol is always an intersting topic
08:39<amitz>so there is non-paying customer :-D
08:40<Trystan>rumour has it.
08:40<HoopyCat>and really, this is all an academic exercise; we generally go there when the parking lot behind the pub is sufficiently empty, and if it's late enough that it's prime pubbing time, we walk. (a tow-away costs as much as a DWI, but the DWI goes on your driving record, so that's the decider...)
08:41<Trystan>HoopyCat: the reason I asked was that, private parking lots/tow operators 'fines' were iirc found unenforcable in the UK
08:41<JshWright>DWI could also be a _lot_ more expensive
08:42<amitz>the lost opportunity cost of employment :-p
08:42<amitz>makes DWI more expensive.
08:42<JshWright>yep, hard to work when you're dead or disabled
08:42<HoopyCat>Trystan: ain't happened here yet, although we've had some individual cases where significant pressure was applied by the city to "resolve" a situation. (namely, posting a sign saying "FESTIVAL PARKING", not posting a price, then when the lot's full, tow everyone away)
08:45<amitz>JshWright: I'm referring to some jobs that may not be available to you due to DWI->felony->nofelonyonaparticularjob.
08:45<Trystan>or even jobs that require a license (if you lose it)
08:46<amitz>or x consecutive misdemeanor within y months (or something along that line).
08:46<HoopyCat>and for the record, a tow-away isn't actually that expensive, a DWI is much worse, and you're lucky if you just get a DWI. that's why we walk.
08:46<JshWright>Yeah... I'm still gonna weight "not killing someone" as more important than "getting a job"
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08:46<Nivex>As someone who was impacted by a drunk driver, I thank you.
08:47<Trystan>JshWright: yea but even the little things in between should be deterents as well
08:47<amitz>JshWright: oh, sorry, I forget we're speaking of different driving culture.
08:47<amitz>driving while intoxicated.
08:47<Trystan>driving while under the influence of alcohol
08:47<HoopyCat>you don't have to be drunk to kill someone, but it helps
08:47<Trystan>thats it, couldnt think of the word :)
08:47<Nivex>Please don't do this to anyone else:
08:47<Nivex>I was lucky, only got a few scratches.
08:47<amitz>I mean, the driving culture makes intoxication far less fatal here.
08:48<rogi_>ah, 'DD' here (drunk driving)
08:48<JshWright>Nivex: I'm a volunteer FF/EMT is a fairly affluent area, drunk driving is a major problem here, I've seen more people killed by drunk drivers than I care to recall
08:48<Trystan>Nivex: i thought initially that it wasnt as bad as it now looks
08:48<Trystan>but i was thinking it impacted passanger side
08:49<Trystan>but forgot about what side you guys drive on :)
08:49<JshWright>Nivex: drivers side the primary impact?
08:49<Nivex>yeah, a few milliseconds difference of impact and you might not have been hearing this story
08:49<HoopyCat>if driving seems so automatic and mindless that you think you can do it drunk, ur doin it wrong
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08:49<Trystan>Nivex: looks like it pushed your read passanger into something else?
08:49<Nivex>Trystan: phone pole
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08:49<Trystan>thought as much
08:50<Nivex>spun me around 180 to do that
08:50<Trystan>JshWright: had an interesting one just recently
08:50<Trystan>impact into a tree, caused passanger to hit the front dash with reading classes on, the ones with no frame
08:50<Nivex>rogi_: intersting, "DD" is "Designated Driver" here, which is a good thing
08:50<JshWright>that'll leave a mark...
08:51<Trystan>glass cut her nose/face to be 'falling down' off her face
08:51<Trystan>basically only attached by the skin just above the lip
08:51*Nivex ambles off to chat w/ coworkers
08:51<HoopyCat>the other guy in my major accident was completely sober, just... somewhat oblivious to the whole "red light" thing. those're the bizarre ones.
08:51<JshWright>Trystan: no air bags?
08:51<Trystan>drivers side
08:51<Trystan>no passanger
08:51<Trystan>driver was trapped under steering column
08:52<JshWright>Trystan: it's amazing what platics surgery can do nowadays
08:52<JshWright>good cut job?
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08:52<Trystan>fold the roof, and lift the dash/column to free
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08:53<xrfang>I am reading the doc about migrating, there is an option which I don't see in a normal linux installation and the help text did not help :) about root device, there is an option to make it readonly or readwrite
08:53<Trystan>rogi_: where are you curiously?
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08:53<xrfang>what's the difference and what to choose?
08:53<Trystan>DD is designatd driver here too
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08:54<mwalling>xrfang: readonly, unless you know why you'd want readwrite
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08:55<Trystan>Nivex: re: couple seconds
08:55<xrfang>ok, I don't know, I just want it to be normal :) I wonder why it is ro, -- it may be turned into rw after boot??
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08:55<Trystan>yea looks like it only JUST impacted on the read door
08:55<Trystan>any slower and that woulda been a big impact on you
08:59<mwalling>xrfang: correct. the init will remount it rw after it has checked the filesystem
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08:59<xrfang>ok, thanks :)
08:59<xrfang>now signing up linode :)
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09:05<xrfang>hello, how do I test speed of the 4 data centers? It just let me select without a testing interface :S
09:05<mwalling>thats how.
09:05<mwalling>and you dont need to say hello, you were already here.
09:06<straterra>Ohare is fucking large
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09:06<mwalling>straterra: yes
09:06<mwalling>pita isnt it
09:06<straterra>It's kinda nice
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09:08<linbot>New news from forums: SSH fingerprints on "Console" page in Feature Request/Bug Report <>
09:09<straterra>It's not too crazy here..the place is extremely large though
09:10<JshWright>Are you going through the trippy LSD tunnel?
09:11<straterra>I'm at the gate waiting for my flight..which should arrive in 3 hours :/
09:11<JshWright>Crazy neon lights all over the ceiling with bizzare abstract synth-harpsicord music playing
09:11<xrfang>it is recommended to set a backup node to test new kernels, but how is that done??
09:11<xrfang>oh sorry
09:11<straterra>xrfang: buy another node
09:11<xrfang>I got it,
09:11<xrfang>I mean one node 2 boot image, that seems not necessary, right?
09:12<Trystan>straterra: thats very early.
09:12<JshWright>I think it's between Terminals 1 and 2, but I haven't been there in a while...
09:12<straterra>I don't have a choice
09:12<mwalling>i did it once
09:12<mwalling>too many gawkers blocking the moving walk
09:12<Trystan>dont have a choice to get there early?
09:12<xrfang>also, it is not necessary to allocate an image for the finnix recovery profile, right?
09:12<mwalling>isnt it outside security?
09:12<Trystan>why so?
09:12<mwalling>xrfang: no
09:12<straterra>I took a flight from Indy to here
09:12<xrfang>ok, thanks
09:12<straterra>mwalling: I didn't have to go through security again
09:13<mwalling>straterra: the trippy tunnel
09:13<mwalling>xrfang: finnix just needs a config profile
09:13<straterra>It really exists?
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09:13<xrfang>ok, thanks
09:14<straterra>OpenVPN FTW btw
09:16<xrfang>I would like to use a service similar to Dropbox or UbuntuOne to backup my data, any suggestions?
09:17<JshWright>straterra: you didn't belive me? ;)
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09:17<straterra>About what?
09:17<jforman>xrfang: are those not sufficient?
09:18<straterra>7 and a half hours left on the laptop battery \O/
09:20<mwalling>again, too many morons blockign the god dman moving walk
09:20<mwalling>in other news, 60 minutes for a connection that requires going through there is a bad idea
09:20<mwalling>($CorporateTravelArrangers FTL.)
09:21<straterra>Yeah..40 minute flight here
09:21<straterra>then a zomglong one
09:21<straterra>I'd rather do that 40 minute flight than drive to Chicago though
09:23<HoopyCat>remember, on moving walks, stand on the left and run on the right
09:24<straterra>i walked in the middle in Indy
09:24<straterra>Work bought this wifi connection \O/
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09:26<straterra>I wonder if I can find a PS2 mod chip while I'm in China
09:26<xrfang>jforman: I don't know if they are available for a server installation
09:27<xrfang>I am consider using debian as its image is smaller than ubuntu 910
09:27<xrfang>my / partition is now set to 2GB, is that enough?
09:28<mwalling>you can always resize later
09:28<straterra>if you use ext2/3
09:29<mwalling>if you make your images with the dash board
09:31<xrfang>the dashboard is a little bit confusing, although it is the "awardwining" one :)
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09:32<xrfang>I created an image then "deploy a linux distro", but that try to create its own disk image
09:33<xrfang>ok, anyone please recommend a remote backup scheme? did you try either dropbox or ubuntu-one etc?
09:33<xrfang>it seems that ubuntu-one needs gnome
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09:36<HoopyCat>don't get me started on ubuntuone :-)
09:36<HoopyCat>xrfang: many folks use amazon's S3
09:36<xrfang>S3 is free?
09:36<HoopyCat>xrfang: it's not free, but it's of negligible cost for backups
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09:37<xrfang>I will check it out thanks
09:38<xrfang>that's quite good, I hope it is easy to setup in a server environment. :) I will ask later if I need help, thanks
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09:41<mwalling>its not somethying you set up. its a bit bucket. you need to find/write software to talk to it
09:45<xrfang>while I try to install bind on debian 5, it tells me that the package is build from "untrusted source" and is a security risk?
09:49<HoopyCat>what's the exact error? is it a GPG signature error?
09:50<xrfang>it is a warning in aptitude not gpg signature error I think
09:50<xrfang>WARNING: untrusted versions of the following packages will be installed!
09:50<xrfang>and a paragraph of text, no indication that gpg signature is wrong
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09:51<HoopyCat>hmm. that raises my eyebrow.
09:52<HoopyCat>i wanna say it's not a problem, but it might be worth checking in #debian just to make sure...
09:52<xrfang>installation failed... that's strange, I wonder what is the default repo setup of that image :S
09:54<xrfang>ok, thanks
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09:56*amitzz really should have bought a cellphone with camera..
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09:57<amitzz>so many pictures i have missed..
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10:18<amitz>xrfang: debian isntallation in linode? haven't touched your linode for years or never run update for years?
10:19<xrfang>amitz: I just signed up for linode
10:19<amitz>that happens in your new linode instance?
10:20<amitz>woah, a local version of "windows 7 can"..
10:20<Karrde>xrfang: pastebin the full error
10:20<Karrde>and/or Google the "NO_PUBKEY ABCDEFG12345" line
10:20<Karrde>100% this has been encountered before
10:21<xrfang>sorry I didn't bother, and switched to a Ubuntu 910 server :P thanks a lot
10:21<Karrde>o well fine then
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10:23<amitz>Karrde: fyi, there is a problem not well documented yet that leads to that error, which is bad ISP proxy.
10:24<amitz>specifically, proxy that doesn't respect a "refresh" order.
10:24<Karrde>fine.. 99%
10:25*amitz was hit by that problem for years.. until I finally figured it out by myself. Maybe I should blog about it..
10:25<Karrde>get it on the google
10:26<amitz>it will, but it usually takes about a month until google find me ;-)
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10:33<xrfang>help please, I found a strange issue. I setup in the profile that xvdb is "var" (a disk image I plan to use for /var) and xvdc is swap
10:33<xrfang>but after I boot into it, xvdb is swap and there is no xvdc
10:33<xrfang>(in fstab)
10:34<randallman>Ok Firefox's paradigm by which I have to INSTALL an invalid certificate to USE an invalid certificate is QUITE counter productive to the fact that I have over 250 ILOs I need to access, none of which have actual SSL certificates... Just the canned selfsigned.
10:34<mwalling>xrfang: the manager cant update fstab. you need to do it yourself
10:34<xrfang>then what's the point of setup devices in the manager?
10:35<mwalling>to assign your images to device nodes
10:35<mwalling>images are like hard drives
10:35<xrfang>I mean, in fstab, the swap is now in xvdb
10:35<xrfang>yes, so I can see the manager as hardware disk manager?
10:35<mwalling>the manager is like plugging the cables between the slots on the mobo and the hard drives
10:35<mwalling>yes, its a disk manager and grub/lilo
10:36<xrfang>if so, I don't understand how it works while in fstab the swap is set to /dev/xvdb, which is "var" (an ext3 image) in the manager
10:36<mwalling>fstab is a blank "template" file
10:36<mwalling>just edit it to match what you want
10:36<xrfang>how to check if the swap device is actually being used or not?
10:37<mwalling>it wont be until you put it in the fstab correctly
10:37<xrfang>ok, so I can trust the profile configuration, right?
10:37<xrfang>ok thanks
10:37<xrfang>will do some setup
10:37<mwalling>the fstab is the 90% case, the one that works when the distro wizard runs. you went above and beyond
10:38<TLKit>Chrome FTW.
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10:41<xrfang>I need to reboot to make fstab change take effect, or I can do it without reboot?
10:41<amitz>TLKit: chromed instead of pure stainless steel? meh.
10:41<xrfang>also, last question for the disk stup phase :) if I resize disk in the future, data on it is preserved, right?
10:41<amitz>oh wait..
10:42<amitz>xrfang: yes as long as you don't shrink it too small. But I'd strongly recommend backup and backup.
10:43<amitz>xrfang: mount -a may works.
10:43<xrfang>sure back ups, thanks.
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10:52<xrfang>I have successfully setup fstab. however, I have a question...
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10:52<xrfang>before I setup xvdb to /var there are already /var under the root
10:53<xrfang>after I setup /var, where does the files under the original /var gone?
10:53<xrfang>are they "hidden" somewhere, or the system will clean them up automatically?
10:53<rainman`>if you mount something on a directory that already has files, the files become sort of invisible
10:53<rainman`>if you unmount, they reappear
10:53<randallman>Ahh that's so fun :p
10:54<randallman>Always a hit with the SA's trying to find out what happenned and why DU and DF do not agree :)
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10:54<amitz>xrfang: You do some deeper stuff, based on what and why? Maybe it's not worth it yet to go along this path? I'm just saying..
10:54-!-elfgoh [] has joined #linode
10:55<amitz>I mean, we're not always ready to help you know ;-)
10:55<xrfang>amitz, they are not deeper :) I just try to setup the server as I usually use linux, however my experience is mostly with desktop linux
10:55<xrfang>just ask... and I appreciate your help
10:56<amitz>xrfang: nice that you already have the experience. I just fear that the customization makes asking for help more difficult in the future, if you're not backed with enough knowledge.
10:56<amitz>but I guess my fear is unfounded :-)
10:56-!-Guest1321 is now known as meff
10:56<xrfang>I have plenty of knowledge in most area of linux, but not as deep as kernel or the boot process etc :)
10:57-!-meff is now known as Guest1328
10:57<xrfang>I think I will use the recovery mode to remove the /var on the xvda... I wonder where ubuntu put its apt cache ... will check out
10:57<amitz>/var/cache/apt/ and /var/lib/apt(?)
10:58<xrfang>and yes, I think the new /dev/xvdb I mounted does not have these folders, I think they will be created on demand?
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11:00<amitz>not sure
11:00<amitz>just run apt-get update to test
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11:02<xrfang>hi amitz, just having a small trouble. I now boot into finnix recovery kernel, dashboard said it is running, but I cannot ssh to it, is there any extra steps?
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11:04<amitz>haven't personally tried it. see
11:04<Pryon>The information in the library implies you need to use LISH for finnix
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11:16<rogi_>Note to Linode HQ'ers - I just tried a restore from the beta backup worked perfectly! \o/
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11:19<xrfang>the cpu/network/io graph shown on the dashboard is only for my vps or for all vps on the physical machine?
11:20<rogi_>xrfang: just for yours
11:20<xrfang>ok thanks
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11:23<xrfang>the recover kernel does not work :( Kernel panic - not syncing: No init found. Try passing init= option to kernel.
11:24<Keith>xrb: You need to select the initrd for your recovery kernel as well...and also make sure the ISO is spessified.
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11:30<cho>If I want to switch from DHCP to static on my eth0, do I have to get new IPs so DHCP won't think it owns them anymore?
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11:30<Keith>cho: No.
11:30<randallman>DHCP doesnt really care if you ask for an IP or not
11:30<randallman>at least not at linode AFAIK.
11:30<randallman>you can either setup static or DHCP with the same IP address.
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11:38<xrfang>thanks, that worked!
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11:45<Bdragon>DHCP does not automatically imply address pools. ;)
11:50<randallman>I use static DHCP leasing @ home.
11:50<randallman>for my mythfrontends
11:50<randallman>makes them more 'appliance like' in so far as I can just isntall mythbuntu from scratch and have a working frontend with nearly no config
11:50*adj uses dhcp everywhere
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11:50<randallman>nevermind the fact taht I only have 2 frontends :)
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11:50<adj>makes ip management a million times simpler
11:50<randallman>adj, my router and my DHCP server have static IP's :P
11:51<randallman>Imagine that :)
11:51<randallman>I went static IP here on my workstation @ work
11:51<randallman>I just borrowed from the non-POOL space.
11:51<randallman>just because we have 'secure updates only' enabled on AD DNS
11:51<adj>just set fixed-address liek you were saying..
11:51<randallman>Well, our DHCP is ran by AD
11:52<mwalling>oh god, here comes the windows sucks rant
11:52<adj>not from me
11:52<randallman>It works fine...
11:52<randallman>I just dont have time to go in and add myself a static lease :P
11:52<tarpman>'secure updates only'?
11:52<randallman>in DNS
11:53*tarpman investigates.
11:53<randallman>Doesnt allow for the standard RFC based dynamic updates
11:54<randallman>uses NTLM/KRB I believe.
11:54<tarpman>gssapi according to this
11:54<randallman>Yea gssapi
11:54<pleia2>g 48
11:54<mwalling>pleia2: fail
11:54<pleia2>pesky / key
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11:55<pleia2>Yaakov! <3
11:55<randallman>tarpman, sure it *could* be made to work.
11:55<randallman>secure updates with gssapi auth
11:56<tarpman>randallman: it's one of those things that I'm sure sounds fantastic on paper :)
11:56<randallman>Well secure updates is enabled so some asshat cant poison our DC's DNS entrie s:)
11:56<randallman>just because he's on our network
11:56<randallman>It's been a bit of a hub-bub turning it on because some other devices arent registering now too.
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11:57<randallman>either way, it was easiest for me to just hardcode my IP addresses and give myself static DNS for my workstation here.
11:57-!-Guest1328 is now known as meff
11:57<randallman>its not only my workstation, but also where I ssh to when I come in ove teh VPN so that I can get shit done :)
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12:31<verb>anyone have any experiences with linux virtio? Just want to make sure it's not something I should avoid like the plague...
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12:35<linbot>New news from forums: Blocked at sorbs b/c of rejected mail in Email/SMTP Related Forum <>
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12:53<linbot>New news from forums: SSH X11 forwarding has delay in Linux Networking <>
12:54<foobars>are some OS more memory efficient than others? looking for one with apt-get, so likely ubuntu or debian
12:55<foobars>feeling paranoid about memory, before a possible move to a vps :)
12:55<SelfishMan>foobars: considering that all flavors of linux use the same kernel it doesn't matter
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12:55<SelfishMan>various apps may be more memory efficient but it is never an "OS" thing
12:55<foobars>cool, makes sense
12:56<foobars>am thinking nginx along with php-fpm
12:56<Guspaz|m>Note, however, that using a 64-bit distro will waste a ton of memory with little to no benefit.
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12:58<asdf13>foobars, try arch
12:58-!-Guest1335 is now known as meff
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12:59<foobars>likely my biggest bottleneck will be mysql, but figured why not tackle all fronts
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12:59<foobars>thanks, i'll research 32 vs 64 and ubuntu vs arch
13:00<foobars>i prefer having an apt-get available, as it's so simple
13:00<asdf13>arch is one of the fastest distros out there. all their packages are i688 instead of i386 like most
13:00<asdf13>i mean i686
13:01<asdf13>if you like apt-get try it's the closest thing to arch
13:01<JshWright>asdf13: if you need to squeeze that much performance out of your applications, you shouldn't be on a VPS
13:01<foobars>mostly concerned with memory usage
13:02<asdf13>ya but i'm just a big fan of arch too
13:02<Guspaz|m>There's not much to research for 32-bit versus 64-bit. Very few programs see any speed benefit to 64-bit (some math-heavy apps). But everything consumes more memory since pointers/variables/registers/etc are all twice as large. The only reason to go 64-bit is if you need more than 3GB of RAM for any given process, which is kind of unlikely on a VPS.
13:02<Guspaz|m>Where was that darned comparison article.
13:02<linbot> <-- push it. now.
13:02<Guspaz|m>Stupid linbot
13:02<asdf13>ya im' staying away form 64bit
13:03<Guspaz|m>There it is
13:03<asdf13>that article is the reason i'm on linode
13:03<Guspaz|m>Yeah, it has memory comparisons for 32 and 64 bit
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13:13<Moox854>I am trying to configure postfix on my slice
13:13<Moox854>and following the instructions here -
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13:13<Moox854>I am a bit stuck on the settings for
13:13<Moox854>mynetworks =,
13:14<Moox854>as per the doc, mynetworks is used to define 'a list of trusted IP addresses that may send or relay mail through the server'
13:15<Moox854>so should I be adding my linode ip address here?
13:15<adj>Moox854: probably not
13:15<laser`> is covered by the line
13:15<laser`>And that means mail sent over the loopback interface
13:16<laser`>Or to "localhost"
13:16<Moox854>so just local host - mynetworks = ?
13:16<laser`>Which most of your mail will be done as
13:16<adj>Moox854: unless that mta is going to relay mail for another server, you don't need any additional IPs in the mynetworks var
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13:17<Moox854>ok, then i guess I can use mynetworks = host
13:17<Moox854>which the config file comments says - 'Specify "mynetworks_style = host" when Postfix should "trust" only the local machine'
13:18<adj>Moox854: you can, sure.
13:18<Moox854>oh damn ... they are 2 different setting
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13:18<adj>Moox854: but just stick with the defaults and make clients auth before sending
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13:19<adj>you doing dovecot also?
13:19<Moox854>no ... just for outgoing mail - for output from cronjobs
13:19<adj>oh. then the stock config is probbly plenty
13:20<Moox854>but the default config has neither specified mynetworks nor mynetworks_style ?
13:21<Moox854>oh ok, the config says 'By default (mynetworks_style = subnet), Postfix "trusts" SMTP clients in the same IP subnetworks as the local machine.'
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13:23<Moox854>I'll change it to mynetworks_style = host
13:25<adj>anyone using puppet?
13:27<cho>@adj: I'm doing puppet. Pretty new to it though
13:27<adj>yeah. i keep debating whether to get down and learn it or not
13:27<adj>i only have ~100 servers and my own scripts manage them pretty well, but certain tasks are still tedious
13:28<cho>I like its capabilities a lot. I'm not crazy about its definition language. Shoulda used something more industry-stand like an XML variant
13:28<adj>yeah. i know ruby, so that helps =)
13:28<cho>yay ruby!
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13:28<adj>just not sure if i like trusting the config of all my machines to puppet
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13:29<jcn>i'm messing around with chef now.
13:29<jcn>which has been pretty nice, if a little confusing, documentation-wise.
13:29<cho>I guess it depends on whether you trust yourself to make and test the configuration. It won't run off and do anything you don't tell it to.
13:30<adj>cho: heh, i suppose so =) as long as its secure
13:30<cho>sure, it's all SSL. kind of runs its own CA
13:30-!-pkwong [] has joined #linode
13:30<adj>yeah, but transport is only a tiny part of security
13:31<pkwong>afternoon all.. quick question.. if I wanted to build a linode off a custom .iso I created (boot image for install media), is this allowed?
13:31*pkwong can't remember..
13:33<Moox854>i think I remember reading something about custom distros on linode
13:33<Moox854>check out the linode blog ...
13:33<pkwong>ahh.. yes.. good idea.. *lol* lemme go check.
13:33<Moox854>can't remember too ...
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13:35<adj>ok. i'm just going to dive into puppet. why not
13:35<adj>about to provision another 25 or some machines... might as well do it now
13:36<cho>you go, girlfriend!
13:36<cho>the only thing I'm uncomfortable with atm is exception handling.
13:38<foobars>sounds crazy, but backspace isn't working in ssh (on linode), what am i doing crazy?
13:38<adj>foobars: fir your client ;)
13:38<adj>stty -a
13:39<cho>not all backspaces are created equal
13:40<foobars>you mean add this to my local terminal startup?
13:40<adj>foobars: no. i mean look at wtf stty is telling you and fix your client accordingly
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13:41<linbot>New news from forums: Postfix virtual alias issues in Email/SMTP Related Forum <>
13:42<foobars>think i'll need google to improve my level of geekness for this
13:42<randallman>stty erase (hit backspace)
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13:45<mwalling>foobars: stop using lish :)
13:45<linbot>LISH allows you to perform certain actions without having to log into the LPM. Lish's primary function is to allow you access to your server's console, even if networking is disabled.
13:45<foobars>i just want normal ssh, just started
13:45<mwalling>then ssh to your linode, not to your host
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13:47<jess^>#%^@#%@ing linode
13:47<randallman>damn^H^H^H^Hawesome linode ?
13:47<randallman>(sorry, had to be on topic)
13:47<Nivex>jess^: got a little line noise at the beginning there. try it again
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13:48<Nivex>* randallman has quit (NO CARRIER)
13:48<randallman>Shit, where'd that carrier go anyway...
13:48<randallman>I seem to have misplaced it
13:48<randallman>Dude anyone watch numb3rs?
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13:48<randallman>Charlie Epps was going off on how the DNS system could be hijacked on Friday night's episode
13:49<randallman>and it was.... well... full of gross generalizations and over simplifications :)
13:49<randallman>But then again, it's TV.
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13:56<tierra>randallman: remember how far into the episode it was?
13:57*tierra tries to find it on hulu
13:57<randallman>About 1/3rd o the way?
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13:57<Moox854>can we specify an external email address with each user account instead of the default?
13:57<randallman>I mean don't get me wrong - I dig the whole Numb3rs thing...
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13:57<randallman>Im sure he makes sweeping overgeneraliztions on every episode :)
13:57<randallman>just this time I kew enough to say 'You're wrong' :P
13:57<tierra>no doubt, heh
13:58<randallman>err knew
13:58*randallman is listening to Mastodon - The Mortal Son
13:58<randallman>What a strange band.
13:59-!-Guest1341 is now known as meff
13:59<randallman>I wish MTR had more granularity
14:00<randallman>Im debugging an issue with Oracle RAC nodes losing heartbeats.... on GbE
14:00-!-meff is now known as Guest1347
14:00<randallman>so the ping/rtt time is not accurate enough
14:00<randallman>i.e. huge difference between 0.1 and 0.2 ms...
14:01<Keith>BBL all.
14:02-!-TheJoe|ZzZz is now known as TheJoe
14:03<Guspaz|m>Increase the ticks per second on your kernel?
14:03<randallman>It's the MTR display output
14:03<randallman>They've truncated the values
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14:03<randallman>ping, plain old ping, can report out to 0.001 ms
14:04<Pryon>Moox854: Assuming I understand your question, if you're delivering to user accounts on your linode, the easiest way to deliver elsewhere would be by using $HOME/.forward for each user. I haven't really given it any thought, though.
14:04<adj>or /etc/aliases
14:05<mwalling>but ~/.forward can be owned and writable by the destination user
14:05<mwalling>which is good
14:05<mwalling>because it means less phone calls
14:05<adj>usually good =) i don't want my users forwarding system stuff to gmail/aol accounts
14:05<Guspaz|m>Oh. Pings won't be any more accurate than the number of ticks per second anyhow, though.
14:05<Guspaz|m>I can use a stopwatch and give you a result to 0.001ms, but that doesn't mean that my measurement is that accurate.
14:05<adj>i'd rther ensure it goes to their work email
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14:06<Moox854>Pyron: Thanks. Yeah, I am trying to do something like that.
14:08-!-cmjb [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
14:08<Ksilebo>Helloooo is there any reason why I wouldn't be able to do an NFS mount between 2 linodes in the same DC over the private LAN?
14:10-!-RSully [] has joined #linode
14:11<Nivex>Ksilebo: there are tons of reasons
14:11<Nivex>the question is, which one is impacting you?
14:11<Nivex>please elucidate on your troubles, including log messages wherever possible
14:11<Ksilebo>I'm not sure. I guess the question I should ask is if there's any UDP filtering between linodes on that network
14:12<Ksilebo>They can ping each other just fine though
14:12<Nivex>there is no filtering that I am aware of in the private network
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14:15<foobars>my default ubuntu linode lacks mcrypt (and seemingly others) via apt-get/apt-cache, are certain package repositories disabled by default?
14:15<mwalling>did you update first?
14:15<Nivex>mcrypt is in universe, which may be disabled on initial install. Please check /etc/apt/sources.list
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14:18<foobars>thanks, it is disabled by default
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14:18<ubuntuisloved>Where is the NJ center located and what kind of security does it have for physical break in protection?
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14:19<Ksilebo>Ha! fixed. portmap was only listening on localhost.
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14:20<Moox854>what is the default TTL in linode DNS manager?
14:20<Nivex>damn, someone finally stumped me :)
14:20<Nivex>I was on a roll too :)
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14:22<RSully>hey ubuntuisloved you kinda fuckin let me hangin about 5 weeks ago over in #linux
14:23<bob2>RSully: er language
14:23<Nivex>I'm gonna guess 86400 since that's what's record is, but don't hold me to that
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14:23<Nivex>RSully: dude, that's so last year in internet time.
14:23<RSully>I know man thats what Im sayin
14:23<Nivex>so why bring it up now? in another channel?
14:23*RSully enters Rick Astley in Nivex's Spotlight. Weeee 245 Hits!
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14:24<Nivex>RSully has been blacklisted: No RickRolling!
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14:31<Moox854>if the TTL is 86400, does that mean any changes to the DNS will take a day to be reflected elsewhere?
14:31<laser`>Might do
14:32<laser`>It means if someone has it cached, then they might not check if there's been any updates
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14:32<JshWright>some nameservers will just ignore the cache value
14:32<JshWright>(either caching it longer than they should, or not at all)
14:33<Moox854>interesting - Google's DNS TTL is set to 239
14:33-!-Solver [] has joined #linode
14:33<JshWright>s/nameservers/DNS servers/
14:33<Pryon>aren't those synonymous? (not trying to pick a fight)
14:33<Moox854>yahoo is 20299
14:33-!-gmcharlt [] has joined #linode
14:33<JshWright>depends on how pedantic you want to be
14:34<bob2>no they're not
14:34<Pryon>'splain, please
14:34<Moox854>isn't there a standard?
14:34<bob2>google's NS records have a huge ttl
14:34<bob2>as do the A records under that
14:34<bob2>345600 seconds
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14:35<Moox854>hmm ..
14:35-!-bbeausej [] has joined #linode
14:35<bob2>(you need to do 'dig a', your 'dig a' demonstrates something else instead_
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14:36<Moox854>how do you think they decide on these values?
14:36<Moox854>yahoo ns has ttl 171729
14:36<bob2>a team of phds
14:36<bob2>rolling a d1000000
14:37<Moox854>ah good ol stats you mean
14:37<bob2>no, yahoo has 172800
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14:37<bob2> 21600 IN A
14:38<Moox854> 171729 IN NS
14:38<Moox854> 171729 IN NS
14:38<bob2>did you query a yahoo nameserver?
14:38<bob2>if not, you're lookign at your isp's cache
14:38<Moox854>oh ok ...
14:39<Moox854>since i am doing the dig from linode
14:39<Moox854>I guess tahts from linodes cache
14:39<Moox854> :
14:39<Moox854> 171452 IN NS
14:39<Moox854> 171452 IN NS
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14:40<ubuntuisloved>thank u
14:42<Moox854>I am trying to set an SPF record in the DNS
14:42-!-pkwong [] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.6b1/20091029171059]]
14:43<Moox854>so I guess it should be ok to set the TTL for for it to 3600 (i hour)
14:43<Moox854>i = 1
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14:48<jess^_>i work for a bunch of assholes
14:48<jess^_>i'm quite certain
14:48<jess^_>"please tell this customer this is fixed"
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14:48<jess^_>me: *test, finds it broken*
14:50<linbot>New news from forums: nginx reverse proxy on separate vps in General Discussion <>
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14:53<Moox854>but i am trying to write a shell script that checks if a file exists before parsing it using another python script
14:53<Moox854>i am trying to write a shell script that checks if a file exists before parsing it using another python script
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14:54<Moox854>and the variables i've used to define the file path
14:54<Moox854>somehow isn't being considered as a variable
14:54<Moox854>running the script says
14:54<Moox854>filepath: command not found
14:55<Moox854>(filepath is the variable) What am I doing wrng?
14:55<Peng>Why not have the Python script do it?
14:55<mwalling> <-- Maybe now WONT DIE EVERY FSCKING 5 MINTUES
14:55<Peng>There are race conditions this way.
14:55<mwalling>Moox854: pastebin.
14:56<Pryon>Moox854: are you putting a '$' in front of the variable name?
14:56<linbot>Paste your bulk content into the text box on; after submitting, copy and paste the URL to which you were redirected (e.g. into the channel. The password is right there in the popup login dialog.
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14:59<Pryon>But yeah, putting the python file() in a try/except block could simplify things quite a bit
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14:59<mwalling>Moox854: line 11.
14:59<mwalling>Moox854: you do it right on line 8
15:00<Moox854>Peng: just trying my hand at bash scripting
15:00<Pryon>is it just me or do sh derivatives not like spaces around the '=' in assignment statements?
15:00-!-Guest1347 is now known as meff
15:00<adj>Moox854: two things. always wrap bash vars in double quotes and line 11 needs a $
15:00<Moox854>mwalling: do you mean the ;
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15:01<adj>Pryon: they do not =) varname="hi" and varname2=$(echo "world") are preferred
15:02<Moox854>mwalling: that link didn't work
15:02<mwalling>works for me.
15:02<mwalling>infact, i cut and pasted it out of my address bar.
15:02<adj>and me
15:03<Moox854>doesn't work here in India
15:03<mwalling>"Doesn't work" is not a valid problem description.
15:04<Moox854>I meant it doesn't load in the browser
15:04<mwalling>you dont say a car "doesnt work". you say "when i turn the key, nothing happens" or "i can
15:04<Moox854>looking it up through google cache
15:04<mwalling>t pull the door handle because i cant find it"
15:04-!-boothy [~boothy@] has quit [Quit: Cheerio!]
15:05<Moox854>yes, I should have been more specific :)
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15:06<Pryon>If your car is cool enough to lack door handles it probably has fine manual :-)
15:06<mwalling>Pryon: *EXACTLY*
15:07<Nivex>of course most car manuals sit in the glovebox unread
15:07<TLKit>I need to find a Windows program to monitor bandwidth usage.
15:07<Pryon>I don't think mine explains how to open the doors, though
15:07<TLKit>Any ideas, guys?
15:07-!-DephNet[Paul] [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
15:07<mwalling>TLKit: define bandwidth
15:08-!-DephNet[Paul] [] has joined #linode
15:08<mwalling>TLKit: the width of your band, or the integral of that
15:08*Pryon has a vague memory of the security policy stuff being able to do that kind of monitoring
15:08<adj>TLKit: double click the network connections and it shows bytes sent/recieved
15:09<Moox854>hmm ... pryon was right, removing the spaces fixed the error
15:09<Pryon>I'm like a broken clock
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15:10<Moox854>I like broken clocks here who keep repeating thing they know works
15:10<mwalling>line 11 is still going to result in unexpected behavior
15:10<Moox854>otherwise in any linux forum
15:11<Moox854>the process is: ask a question argue argue argue answer ask a question argue argue argue questioner leaves
15:12<Moox854>yeah, thanks for pointing that out mwalling ... that one should have been quite obvious
15:12-!-WoodWork [] has joined #linode
15:12<Moox854>to me
15:12<mwalling>shit happens
15:12<Moox854>not if you are constipated .. :)
15:12<Moox854>ah lame joke ... ignore
15:13-!-jess^_ is now known as jess^
15:13<jess^>constipated people don't give a shit.
15:14<Moox854>I think they want to though :)
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15:22<Ksilebo>I wonder if kyhwana is the same kyhwana I know...
15:22-!-kyhwana [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
15:22-!-kyhwana [] has joined #linode
15:24<Ksilebo>If he stops flapping, I may one day know
15:25-!-daMaestro [] has joined #linode
15:28<mwalling>i blame sixxs
15:28<linbot>New news from forums: Local Firewall Management in Sales Questions and Answers <>
15:29<Ksilebo>kyhwana: ?
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15:40<linbot>New news from forums: Ubuntu 9.10 caused ntp to hang on lish in General Discussion <>
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15:48<Moox854>bash scripting - is this correct - echo `tar -xvzf $var` ?
15:49<tarpman>depends what you're trying to accomplish
15:50<tarpman>echo `command` is kind of redundant
15:50<Moox854>just wanted to know if we can use a variable in a shell command
15:50<tarpman>FILE="/dev/null"; tar xf $FILE
15:51<Moox854>tarpman: so there isn't a need to use echo while executing shell commands?
15:52<tarpman>Moox854: what are you wanting to echo?
15:53<Moox854>the script will be run using cron - and the output mailed, so - the output ...
15:53<mwalling>backticks are deprecated, $() is the recommended syntax
15:53<randallman>That depends if you are trying to write a BOURNE shell script
15:53<tarpman>echo `command` (or echo $(command)) will have exactly the same output as running the command on its own
15:53<randallman>that just *happens* to work in bourneagain
15:54<tarpman>unless the command's output includes shell syntax, in which case it could have surprising output.
15:54<randallman>Yes, /bin/sh on Solaris 10 is still plain old borune shell :)
15:54<Moox854>ah damn - I am using this guide -
15:54-!-atourino [~antonio@] has joined #linode
15:55<tarpman>I don't see any echo in their tar example
15:55<Moox854>see the ' Executing shell commands with bash'
15:56-!-coredump [] has joined #linode
15:56<tarpman>look at the output though
15:56<tarpman>uname -o and echo `uname -o` have exactly the same output
15:56<tarpman>they're just demonstrating what the backticks do
15:56<coredump>hi, i was wondering if i can ask a few sales questions in here
15:56<linbot>Don't ask to ask; just ASK
15:56-!-coredump is now known as Guest1390
15:56<linbot>The staff may or may not be around but if you tell us your problem then someone in here may be able to help
15:56<linbot>Users with ops are employees of Linode, and know what they're talking about. The rest of us are the ever-so-helpful(?) community.
15:56<tarpman>mwalling: fast fingers
15:57<linbot>chesty: This "yo momma" intentionally left blank. (820:2/4) [mruom]
15:57<linbot>SpaceHobo: Η μητέρα σου τόσο ηλίθιος, αυτή δεν μπορεί να σημάνει α. (730:7 / 5) [umomr]
15:57<mwalling>!urmom in german
15:57<randallman>Stop breaking my tty :0
15:57<linbot>mwalling: Deine Mutter ist so Adjektiv verbed sie ein Adjektiv, Substantiv! (787:0 / 2) [oummr]
15:57<randallman>!urmom in chinese
15:57<linbot>randallman: Yo momma's so unpleasant she makes mwalling look like Miss Congeniality. (822:15/0) [mmruo]
15:57<randallman>!urmom in cyrillic
15:57<linbot>randallman: Yo momma's so slow, she makes RedHat Network Updates look fast (804:9/3) [mrmuo]
15:57<mwalling>fuck you
15:58<atourino>mwalling != Sandra Bullock
15:58<Guest1390>haha... k... i was looking at the faq page and at the part where it says "Can I upgrade my Linode?" it says that "Extras are added instantly (some require reboots)."
15:58<Guest1390>may i ask what extras would cause a reboot?
15:58<@jed>Guest1390: RAM and IP addresses require a reboot
15:58<Moox854>tarpman: no they don't - according to their output echo with backtick executes the command where as without the backtick it just prints the command
15:59<Guest1390>ah, that makes sense
15:59<@jed>Guest1390: RAM requires a reboot for your xen domain to take advantage of it, and IP addresses require a reboot for our backend systems to route them to you
15:59<mwalling>and disk space
15:59<@jed>disk space does not require a reboot, but one will be inferred since you'll probably want to put it in use
15:59-!-dhoss [] has quit [Quit: leaving]
15:59<mwalling>jed: hence the 'kinda', ass
15:59*jed hugs mwalling
15:59<Moox854>tarpman: sorry didn't read what you said properly
16:00<Guest1390>in general, how much downtime would a reboot cause?
16:00<mwalling>Guest1390: minutes
16:00<mwalling>Guest1390: if that
16:00<@jed>Guest1390: I can reboot in about 12 seconds
16:00<jforman>pix or it didnt happen
16:00<Guest1390>ah, that's not bad
16:00<atourino>rebooting !urmom takes longer... need to work it
16:01<litwol|mac>seems like a urmom joke in making ;)
16:01<litwol|mac>urmom is so slow, it takes longer to reboot her ?
16:01<Guest1390>by the way, i was also wondering.... are there eventually plans to add servers with SSD drives sometime in the near future
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16:01<Guest1390>i realize they're not really enterprise/SAS ready yet... but it'd be good to know
16:01-!-kaitocracy [] has joined #linode
16:02-!-meff is now known as Guest1391
16:02<@jed>Guest1390: to what advantage?
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16:03<Guspaz|m>If you need SSDs, you shouldn't be using a VPS
16:03<Guest1390>for nodes meant soley for db or mail servers, for instance, that need lots of IO
16:03<Guest1390>basically, any apps that are IO limited
16:03<@jed>the community has discussed this here:
16:03<Guest1390>and require little space
16:03<wa>hey i have a question... is it possible to remove this "Linux hostname #1 SMP Mon Oct 26 18:17:01 UTC 2009 i686" from uname -a and change that text to something else?
16:03-!-blognewb [~blognewb@] has joined #linode
16:03<Guest1390>ah, thanks for the link
16:03<Guest1390>will go read it now
16:04<jforman>wa: why on earth would you want to do that?
16:04<mwalling>wa: uh....
16:04-!-blognewb [~blognewb@] has quit []
16:04<@jed>we read the thread, but we're not going to respond to anything at this time
16:04<@jed>SSDs, in my personal opinion, would raise everyone's cost substantially for a gain that is not justifiable
16:04<Bdragon>Would be easiest to wrap uname :P
16:04<wa>jforman: it shows up at the top of my motd..... if i run an ircd, when i type /version it shows that there...
16:04<@jed>wa: so?
16:04<wa>and if i run a counter-strike 1.6 game server, it shows the location as US - Linode
16:05-!-kaitocracy [] has joined #linode
16:05<jforman>if you are that paranoid that someone will know your kernel version, dont run an ircd
16:05<wa>so? i don't want my clients and competitors to see where my service is hosted
16:05-!-kaitocracy [] has quit []
16:05<wa>jforman, it's with anything i run they can see
16:05<jforman>uhh a traceroute could tell them that
16:05<bd__>wa: If you really want to change the uname output, you can rebuild the kernel, changing the version-string logic to whatever you like, and use pv-grub to boot it.
16:05-!-bd__ is now known as bd_
16:05<Guest1390>true... but for apps that don't require a lot of space, but just needs low-latency... i think it's a good tradeoff
16:05<Guest1390>hence, why i specifically use db and mail servers as examples
16:05<wa>bd how can i do that?
16:06<Guspaz|m>Anybody can always find out *where* you're hosted, you can't prevent that. Nobody can.
16:06<mwalling>wa: you realize that anyone who knows the hostname of your server knows your ip address... and from that they can whois it and find out who your isp is?
16:06<@jed>wa: your IP will always report "US - Linode" because we own the IP
16:06<Guspaz|m>They just need to WHOIS your IP and boom, "Linode"
16:06<JshWright>Guest1390: that's what RAM is for
16:06<@jed>and I'm curious what gain you have from hiding your host from your clients and competitors
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16:07<linbot>New news from forums: Strange SSH tunneled Socks problem in Linux Networking <>
16:07<tarpman>you should be happy to show your competitors that you're on linode
16:07<Guspaz|m>jed: Clearly being a Linode customer is a competitive advantage due to increased levels of awesome?
16:07<@jed>Guest1390: we can't specialize to certain applications or domains, we must remain effective across the board, for every load
16:07<tarpman>they'll go "oh shit, we can't compete with that"
16:07<tarpman>and give up
16:07<JshWright>jed: c'mon... it's not like he wants to brag about the fact that he's slummin' in a VPS, right?
16:07-!-kaitocracy [] has quit []
16:07<bd_>wa: <-- download source code here, go poking around to find the bit that builds the version string, then build&install as per any of the many build-a-kernel tutorials out there. Use your existing /proc/config.gz as a base. Also there's some pv-grub instructions on and/or I believe
16:07<mwalling>jed: because then tehy will... what Guspaz|m said, he beat me to the punchline
16:07<Guest1390>just to give you an example... we can probably get a dedicated server with SSD drives now, for as low as $300... but then, if i only need about 1GB of database space... i'm probably willing to pay $100 for a vps that has 1GB SSD
16:08<wa>listen, it's really not anyone's business for my reasons of wanting to do something... i come to ask how to do it... not whether it's a good or bad idea to do it or whether it wouldn't really help...
16:08<@jed>wa: it wouldn't help.
16:08<wa>apparently you don't read
16:08<Bdragon>The vm itself will impose an overhead too, don't forget that...
16:08<Guspaz|m>wa: It's impossible to hide your host from the world, so, that's your answer. You can change your MoTD, but that won't fully anonymize it.
16:08<adj>wa: you were given options...
16:08<Guest1390>JshWright: true, but if the server goes down.. what happens to that data in the RAM :P
16:09<@jed>wa: I'm trying to understand you -- please forgive me if I have not
16:09<Guspaz|m>Guest1390: Feel free to colocate an SSD-based file server in the same datacenter? Although then you'd be paying transit.
16:09<bd_>wa: I'll advise you that if you intend to do this, you need to know that a) your host will still be findable from your IP b) you'll need to know C and maybe shell/makefile in order to edit the versionstring logic and c) you'll be mostly on your own when building your own kernel. You're just given the tools, and it's up to you to use them...
16:09<jforman>wa: you realize that the web IRC client you're using, displays your IP address in hex. right? with just that information, i have the same details you're trying to hide
16:09<wa>i'm not trying to hide the hostname
16:09-!-kaitocracy [] has joined #linode
16:09<adj>wa: rebuild your kernel. hack up your ircd. tunnel your crap though ta ipv6 tunnel... do whatever makes you happy
16:09<JshWright>Guest1390: if you are running an IO sensitive app, a VPS probably isn't the place to do it
16:09<Guest1390>lol... i'm too poor to do that..
16:09-!-kaitocracy [] has quit []
16:09<Ksilebo>Wow i really don't want to be in the industry wa is in.
16:09<mwalling>16:05 < wa> so? i don't want my clients and competitors to see where my service is hosted
16:09<Pryon>wa: have you set up /etc/hostname and rDNS?
16:10<Pryon>/etc/hosts too, I suppose
16:10<Guest1390>JshWright: you're right... but if you don't have enough money/resources to be running multiple dedicated servers... well... you get the idea
16:10<mwalling>from your hostname, you get the ip. from the ip, you get what netblock it is in. from the netblock, you get the isp. from the isp, you see linode.
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16:10<Guspaz|m>If you're willing to spend the extra money to get SSDs, then you could just scale horizontally and get a few 360s to act as a database cluster, multiplying your IO.
16:10<JshWright>Guest1390: you'd be much better off investing your money in a VPS with lots of RAM
16:10<bd_>wa: anyway, the thing you need to keep in mind is all you can do is make a little bit less obvious - but it is ALWAYS possible (easy, even) to trace where a server is hosted.
16:10<mwalling>if youre not trying to hide the hostname, you're not trying to hid where you are hosted.
16:10-!-dajhorn [] has joined #linode
16:10<bd_>wa: but if you just want to replace uname, the kernel-rebuild route is for you
16:11<adj>Guest1390: run your service. optimize as best as possible at the app layer. measure and trend out iops/csw's etc and plan accordingly
16:11<Ksilebo>wa: If someone really wants to, they can find out any information they want about you, one way or another.
16:11<wa>no shit
16:11<Guest1390>JshWright: has there been any successful instances of people getting that done on linode
16:11<Ksilebo>Short of registering your own AN with ARIN, you're going to need to host somewhere.
16:11<Guspaz|m>Guest1390: Linode offers nodes with up to what, 28 gigs of RAM?
16:11<JshWright>Guest1390: successful instances of people getting lots of RAM?
16:11<JshWright>uh... yeah... ?
16:11<Guest1390>i mean, there's going to be some issues with having too many master/slave servers in a cluster
16:11<@jed>Guspaz|m: 14
16:11<Pryon>wa: what ircd are you running? hybrid shows the hostname you set, not the linode hostname
16:12<Ksilebo>And coming into an IRC room asking for help and getting very pissy with us isn't going to get you anywhere either.
16:12<JshWright>jed: I thought 14 GB was the max you set up automagically... if someone asked nicely, you could accomodate larger, right?
16:12<Guest1390>JshWright: successful instances of people setting up scalable database clusters using linode 360s without hitting any issues
16:12<@jed>JshWright: depends, king size linodes were intended to remove special treatment
16:12<Guspaz|m>Guest1390: Not really, it's not an insurmountable problem...
16:12<mwalling>JshWright: i think thats how big the boxes are
16:12<Guspaz|m>jed: Is there still not the case when somebody wants an entire host to themselves?
16:13<jforman>jed: special treatment? you mean like french benefits....
16:13<@jed>Guspaz|m: not sure
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16:13<mwalling>itym mikegrb benefits
16:13<Ksilebo>Moving on...
16:13<atourino>ooh la la
16:13<jforman>french benefits >>
16:13<X-LP>jed may i query you
16:14<X-LP>when you have time
16:14<Guest1390>JshWright: setting up 2 redundant mysql instances is hard enough
16:14<Guspaz|m>Je pense qu'il y a pas beaucoup des personnes ici qui parle français...
16:14-!-kyhwana [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
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16:14<tarpman>Guspaz|m: :)
16:14<mwalling>v pna fcrnx serapu gbb
16:14<adj>Guest1390: hehe =) its not bad with 5.1
16:14<tarpman>Guspaz|m: furthermore, 'parlent' ? ;)
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16:14<Guest1390>adj: 5 frontend (example web)... and 1 backend db?
16:15<bbeausej>voyons gus, tu serais surpris!
16:15<Guest1390>oh wait... mysql 5.1 hahaha
16:15<adj>yeah =)
16:16<Yaakov>Wr ar cneyr cnf.
16:16<mwalling>Yaakov: ass :P
16:16<Guspaz|m>tarpman: J'ai jamais dit que ma français était bon, juste que je peux communiqer assez bien d'être compris ;)
16:16<Guest1390>adj: yeah, but can you imagine setting up 100 linode 360s in a db cluster
16:16<adj>just set up circular replication between n masters and have each inserting id's that don't collide then drop lvs in front of them
16:17<tarpman>oh bother.
16:17<mwalling>Guest1390: thats why there are deployment tools
16:17<jforman>tarpman: editor fail, C-s C-x
16:17<Guest1390>when you can potentially use a single 360 with SSD drives to get the same performance
16:17<Guspaz|m>It comes from growing up in a French-speaking province; you need to be able to function in French well enough.
16:18-!-kaitocracy [] has quit []
16:18<adj>Guest1390: you are still sharing the storage...
16:18<Pryon>mwalling: he's using the correct editor, but that was the command to save, not exit
16:18<adj>Guest1390: ssd isn't a huge improvement either
16:18<Pryon>actually, it was backwqrd
16:18<Guest1390>yeah, but if the latency if virtually 0 on seeks... that doesn't really matter much
16:18<adj>Guest1390: you want sas or scsi for enterprise storage
16:18<Guspaz|m>If your database is IO-bound, then you don't have enough RAM.
16:18<Ksilebo>Fibre Channel from a SAN.
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16:18<Ksilebo>Its the only way to be sure.
16:18<Guest1390>*latency is
16:18<Pryon>M-x whatever
16:19<Guest1390>adj: that was my original question... if linode will be planning to offer them when sas ssd drives come out next year or so
16:19<Guspaz|m>adj: A single Intel x25-e produces about 18x the IOPS as a Cheetah 15K RPM SAS drive.
16:19<adj>Guest1390: i run some massive DB's and i have no need for SSD. if you really need ssd i would be shocked
16:19<adj>because you wouldn't be looking at a VPS if you did ;)
16:20<Guest1390>that's the difference between us, i guess... i don't have massive DBs... i just want one fast DB :D
16:20<Guest1390>a small one at that
16:20<Guspaz|m>Guest1390: If your DB is small, you don't need an SSD, you need more RAM...
16:20<adj>then put it in ram =)
16:20<Guspaz|m>If your DB is cached in RAM, then the speed of the underlying disk is irrelevant!
16:20<Guest1390>yeah, again that's... ok until the server goes down
16:21<Guspaz|m>Not unless you're crazy write-heavy.
16:21<Guest1390>having more RAM will help speed up the reads, but it'll still be slow during writes
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16:21<Guest1390>oh well... not really an issue right now.. it was a question for future linode offerings
16:21<Guspaz|m>Write buffering will help with that load, and if you're using atomic transactions, you don't much care about a few seconds of latency to hit the disk.
16:22<Guest1390>have to plan ahead
16:22<adj>Guspaz|m: re the increased iops... sure they do =) thats why a lot of newer (nicer?) sans have ssds in front of the spindles to cache things
16:22<Guspaz|m>IMO write buffering is more about consolidating writes than actually buffering.
16:22<Guest1390>don't forget the fusion-io drives
16:23<Guest1390>i believe myspace uses them now
16:23<Guspaz|m>Their entry-level drive is a $900 MLC.
16:23<adj>i havent crunched the numbers, but i would guess that sas is still cheaper per io than ssd
16:23<adj>obviously demands dictate budget, so ymmv
16:23<Guspaz|m>adj: Not really, the x25-e does not cost 18x more than a Cheetah.
16:23<Guest1390>probably the same if you count the power savings
16:23<Yaakov>My new servers have four SAS drives each.
16:23<Guspaz|m>SSDs are cheaper per IO than spindle-based.
16:23<Yaakov>72GB drives.
16:23<Guspaz|m>But SSDs cost *way* more per gig.
16:23<randallman>I've not gone into SSDs yet
16:24<adj>Guspaz|m: but you have to factor in the size at some point
16:24<adj>yeah. you said it first =)
16:24<Yaakov>I use SSD but I prefer mine to be made from discrete transistors.
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16:24<Guspaz|m>adj: It depends on what you need, though. If you've got a 50GB data set to store, you probably don't really care about the capacity so long as it's "enough".
16:25<randallman>We're considering using SSDs in the SAN
16:25<adj>Guspaz|m: sure. and i do think that eventually ssd's will replace spindles, but its not there yet, imo
16:25<randallman>But I dont see using it for server roots for now....
16:25<randallman>The cost is still higher...
16:25<Pryon>Yaakov: I always wondered why you needed such a large underground lair
16:25<Guspaz|m>adj: For consumers, sure, but I do hear that SSDs are making quite a splash in the very-high-end enterprise.
16:25<Yaakov>Pryon: The earth's core is molten for a reason.
16:26<adj>on the bright side... the more we talk about SSD's, then more people will buy them, and that will drive manufactoring costs down even further for us!
16:26<randallman>Guspaz, like I said - my enterprise isnt really looking at them seriously right now.
16:26<randallman>Cost is too high IMHO.
16:26<Yaakov>I am getting a MacBook Air with an SSD.
16:26<randallman>That's an interesting application - the netbook and laptops
16:27<Guspaz|m>Well, as I said, they're cheaper per IO, so it dends on your use case. They *can* be cheaper. If you're replacing an array of 15K drives with a RAID, you're getting the same performance for less money.
16:27<Guspaz|m>Netbooks and laptops aren't that interesting yet because a decent SSD will cost as much as the netbook itself.
16:27<randallman>sure, but one drive for one drive
16:27<randallman>or perhaps in RAID1 server root applications...
16:27<Ksilebo>Now I'm looking up prices for a 74GB SSD...
16:27<Guspaz|m>The closest we've come is the new Kingston 40GB drives. It's half an x25-m, and can be had for under $100 USD with rebate.
16:28<Guspaz|m>That's about as close to netbook-pricing as they get, and it's still like a third the price of the netbook.
16:28<Guspaz|m>Ksilebo: They don't come in 74GB.
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16:28<Guspaz|m>They come in 64GB, 80GB, but not 74.
16:28<Yaakov>Thats the advantage of the Air, it's so expensive the SSD is worth it.
16:29<Ksilebo>Guspaz|m: Ballpark figure to replace my array of raptors I have at home.
16:29<Guspaz|m>The SSD in the Air is pretty crappy.
16:29<Yaakov>It's going to be about 1800 bucks with a 128GB drive.
16:29<JshWright>SSDs in laptops aren't all about the speed
16:29<Guspaz|m>Ksilebo: $259 USD for an Intel x25-m 80GB
16:29<JshWright>improved battery life is also a plus
16:30<Ksilebo>Guspaz|m: Yeah that's what I'm seeing. Not quite worth it when I can get a Velociraptor for less.
16:30<Bdragon>Don't forget physical shock resistance
16:30<bbeausej>i have the 128gb x25-m in my macbook pro and it's really nice. quick and stable up to now
16:30<JshWright>Bdragon: indeed
16:30<randallman>but in server root disk needs, you still want the RAID1 to prevent failure....
16:30<Guspaz|m>Ksilebo: And I can get a box of floppy disks for less than that, but it's not going to be as fast.
16:30<Ksilebo>$160 for that, but the 300 GB one is $230
16:30<bbeausej>130MB/s read is hands down: ftw
16:30<randallman>Hell, we're getting systems with 146GB root disks and we only need 32GB
16:31<randallman>130MB/sec? That's not THAT much
16:31<Guspaz|m>bbeausej: There is no 128GB x25-m. You may mean the x25-e (enterprise drives)
16:31<randallman>I get 400MByte/sec from a 6x300 SAS array
16:31<randallman>10k drives
16:31<Ksilebo>Guspaz|m: I'm just talking for my desktop at home. Not very economical for me to do that.
16:31<Guspaz|m>I get 250MB/s from my 1xIntel disk.
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16:31<Guspaz|m>But it's the random IO where it shines.
16:31<randallman>I get 250MByte/sec over a 4gbit FC link...
16:32<bbeausej>random uncache read
16:32<bbeausej>but im using a crappy bench tbh
16:32<Guspaz|m>Compared to a standard 7200RPM drive, I get like 20MB/s, while a 7200RPM drive gets 0.2MB/s or so
16:32<linbot>New news from forums: Support response times? in Sales Questions and Answers <>
16:32<Moox854>*/5 * * * * | mail -s "Result"
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16:32<Guest1390>i was just reading the posts to that topic in the forum that jed linked to, and it seems the problem is that the staff are afraid there may not be enough customers willing to pay for a machine with very little hd space right now
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16:33<Moox854>is the above cronjob correct - run every 5 minutes and email the result to
16:33<bbeausej>I should try another bench tool for this drive
16:33<Guest1390>would it be feasible on linode's architecture to maybe set up a san with SSDs for customers who do need the IO, and are willing to pay for it
16:33<chesty>Moox854: depends on where you stick it
16:33<mwalling>Moox854: emailing is implicit in most cron implimentations
16:33<Nivex>or you set the MAILTO variable in crontab and let it handle the mailing for you
16:34<Ksilebo>I would love to get an array of 4 SSDs in RAID 10 for my desktop.
16:34<Guspaz|m>Well, if they went from 4 disk RAID-10 to 2-disk RAID-1, assume the 128GB x25-e, then you're talking about what, ~16% the storage space? My Linode 540 would suddenly have 4GB of space? I can't function with only 4GB disk...
16:34<mwalling>Moox854: most crons will magicly mail standard out to the user who is calling cron
16:34<Guest1390>actually, can we mount network drives on linode... or how does the file system generally work around here?
16:34<Moox854>yes, but I want to specify an external email
16:34<Guspaz|m>You can mount a network drive, why wouldn't you be able to?
16:34<Guspaz|m>You could use S3, that should support decent IOPS, no?
16:35<tarpman>Moox854: then you should set up your system so that mail to root goes to that external address
16:35<Ksilebo>S3 is pretty slow.
16:35<Guest1390>well then... it IS possible for linode to set up a separate server with SSD drives if there are enough customers willing to pay for it :D
16:35<Guspaz|m>Fine, then colocate a file server in the same DC and mount it.
16:35<Guest1390>we can all share it
16:35<Moox854>is there some security implications in using mail in a cron job?
16:35<Guest1390>haha... perhaps if linode hires me
16:36<tarpman>do your cron jobs output sensitive information? mine usually don't.
16:36<Moox854>oh, I won't be running th cron as as root
16:36<Pryon>Moox854: consider redirecting stderr to stdout
16:36<adj>seperate server + seperate network
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16:36<Ksilebo>ooh, 10k SAS drives are less expensive now...
16:37<adj>those 10k sas drives are a great deal
16:37<Ksilebo>Even the 15k ones are cheap
16:37<adj>drop 6-8 in an enclosure and raid them for your needs and you have good storage at a bargain
16:37<Guspaz|m>adj: That sounds more expensive than an SSD...
16:38<adj>considering both performance and capacity, it isnt
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16:38<Guest1390>Guspaz|m: wouldn't the network latency between linode's network and S3 negate the benefits of using the amazon cloud as a db
16:38<adj>its all about tradeoffs
16:38<Guspaz|m>If I wanted capacity, I'd RAID together a bunch of 1TB disks, those are $80 CAD a pop :P
16:38<Guest1390>even with thei high IOPS
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16:39<Guspaz|m>newegg was even selling 2TB disks for like $210 CAD, but they sold out too fast.
16:39<adj>Guspaz|m: but you need to support both the iops demanded by your services and the space they need to operate until you can upgrade
16:39<adj>Guspaz|m: imho, its all about picking the right tool
16:39<Guspaz|m>If you put enough 1TB drives together, the IOPS will follow ;)
16:39<Guspaz|m>I'd be more concerned about them dropping out of the array.
16:40<Ksilebo>I don't think consumer-level SSDs are quite ready for me to jump into yet.
16:40<Guspaz|m>The whositwhatsit setting there that consumer drives lack, the error timeout
16:40<adj>if you put that many 1tb satas in one place good luck rebuilding
16:40<Ksilebo>adj: Exactly.
16:40<Ksilebo>By the time you have a rebuild, another drive may die.
16:40<Guspaz|m>That's what RAID-6 is for.
16:40<Guest1390>adj: if you have enough money/resources having to servers... one for high capacity and another one for high IOPS... would be better
16:40<adj>or it will never rebuild
16:40<Ksilebo>Actually even with RAID6 another drive might die in that time.
16:40<adj>Guest1390: that is what i have =) just with scsi's, not ssds
16:41<Ksilebo>Rebuilding 1-2 TB worth takes forever.
16:41<Guest1390>ah... let's hope you can upgrade to SSD soon :)
16:41<Guspaz|m>Personally, my data at home is very vulnerable. 2.66 TB of storage, and none of that is redundant :(
16:41<adj>and a root LUN on 14 500g satas
16:41<Guspaz|m>It's just replacing the 2.5TB of bulk storage with a RAID array would cost a pretty penny.
16:41<Guspaz|m>I'd need to spend $320 just to get the same capacity as I have now.
16:41<Ksilebo>ZFS is still pretty beta.
16:41<Guest1390>that would be cheaper
16:42<adj>Guest1390: i have absolutely zero need to upgrade =) not within 2-3 years assuming my trends continue as expected
16:42<Guspaz|m>zfs doesn't magically add redundancy.
16:42<Ksilebo>cheap, reliable, fast, choose 2.
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16:42<Guspaz|m>Ksilebo: I don't need fast for bulk storage, doesn't change anything :P
16:42<Ksilebo>raidz still has some big bugs
16:42<Guspaz|m>Guest1390: raidz doesn't magically make it not cost $320.
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16:42<Ksilebo>Ok I'm not trying to counter your every argument Guspaz|m, I'm just throwing info out there. You don't need to counter every single thing I say.
16:43<Guest1390>lol... just watch out for a sale on frys
16:43<Guspaz|m>frys is us-only.
16:43<Guspaz|m>Also, the $320 price *is* on sale ;)(
16:43<Guest1390>i live in asia, and i still buy from frys every now and then
16:43<emag>and mostly west-of-the-mississippi
16:43<Ksilebo>Fry's is only as west as Arizona.
16:43<Ksilebo>Er, Nevada, hm
16:44<Guspaz|m>Ksilebo: I'm not trying to counter what you're saying... How am I doing that? It will cost me at least $320 to buy new disks to make a RAID array to get the same capacity as I have now.
16:44<Battousai>doesn't get much wester than arizona
16:44<Ksilebo>Arizona is more east, rather
16:44<Guest1390>frys ships virtually anywhere in the US... actually, it's better if you buy in a state where they're not physically located cause you don't have to pay taxes
16:44<Ksilebo>I know directions today.
16:44<Guspaz|m>Guest1390: Shipping anywhere in the US doesn't help me when I'm not in the US.
16:44<Ksilebo>I miss being able to drive down the road and buy some random enterprise-class part.
16:45<Guest1390>that's why we have american friends
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16:45<Guspaz|m>I visit my American friends once per year, but that'd have to be a mighty big sale to undercut newegg or the local store (who usually significantly undercuts newegg)
16:46-!-Turl [] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
16:46<Guspaz|m>Doesn't sell electronics here.
16:46<Guest1390>oh are you in canada?
16:46<Guspaz|m>... Yes. Hence my repeated claims that I live in a French province and don't live in the US? :P
16:47<Guspaz|m>One day I might like to go redundant, but there's a big up-front cost to doing that. Ironically, spending $700 on that SSD is more than the up-front costs...
16:47<Guest1390>anyway, it was nice chatting with you guys
16:48<Guspaz|m>But the $700 was part of my graduation present to myself ;)
16:48<Moox854>Pryon: is this better - */5 * * * * 2>&1 | mail -s "Result"
16:48<Guest1390>see, ssd is worth it!!!
16:48<Guspaz|m>Well, it was, I love it.
16:48<Guspaz|m>But my bulk storage is still on spindles.
16:48<Guest1390>hope linode sees the light
16:49<Guspaz|m>I've got a 1TB and a 1.5TB, so I'd need to get like 4x1TB or bigger/more.
16:49<adj>Guest1390: just watch your iops =)
16:49<Guspaz|m>Plus an enclosure, I suppose.
16:49<Guest1390>adj: lol... will do
16:49<adj>press the issue when your db is doing over 1000 ;)
16:49<Pryon>Moox854: that would be my preference over your last version
16:49<Guest1390>gotta go
16:49<Guspaz|m>A 4-disk enclosure with an eSATA port would do it, those are cheap. Put 4x2TB in there, decent upgrade. Would only cost me $900-1000. Which is still expensive.
16:49<Moox854>thanks - for the help and guiding me
16:49<Guest1390>hopefully i'll be rich enough by then ;)
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16:50<randallman>I ned to jack up my mythtv storage :)
16:50<randallman>wife bought me a 1TB SAS drive last X-mas
16:50<randallman>and I nevr put it in the case :P
16:51<randallman>err s/SAS/SATA/g
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16:51<Ksilebo>I just feel totally vulnerable if I have data on only one drive
16:51<Guspaz|m>I seem to consume storage at 1 to 1.5 TB per year.
16:51<adj>because you are?
16:51<Ksilebo>adj: Exactly.
16:51<randallman>Yes, all of my systems are RAID 1 at home
16:51<randallman>except for the mythfrontends
16:52<randallman>and the data for a mythbackend is volatile
16:52<Guspaz|m>Yeah, we are, but short of spending a ton of cash, I have no way around being vulnerable.
16:52<randallman>I do not need RAID1 for my MPEG's of 'friends' :P
16:52<randallman>and 'seinfeld'
16:52<adj>heh. what in the world are you storing at home that uses over a tb/yr?
16:52<Guspaz|m>I'd love to throw up a RAID-5 array at least, but that'd require new drives.
16:52<Guspaz|m>adj: Umm, "Linux ISOs."
16:53<adj>quit letting the magpie part of your brain win ;)
16:53<Guspaz|m>Surprisingly, very little of these Linux ISOs are adult-oriented.
16:53<Guspaz|m>I think 500GB alone is anime.
16:53<Yaakov>We are going from ~650 kB/s DSL to 12 MB/s cable.
16:54<Ksilebo>I've actually began purging stuff I don't watch anymore because I simply never watch it.
16:54<Yaakov>I am looking forward to it.
16:55<Guspaz|m>I do tend to randomly rewatch older stuff.
16:55<Ksilebo>Yaakov: Its nice. I upgraded my cable from 8 to 16 Mbit and its really nice.
16:55<Guspaz|m>I bonded two 5mbit/s DSL lines to go from 5/0.8 to 10/1.6
16:55<Guspaz|m>But I want more :(
16:56<Guspaz|m>I could bond up to seven DSL lines considering my ISP's hardware, but more than two lines gets too expensive.
16:56<adj>Guspaz|m: wow, thats pretty cool that the isp will bond on their end
16:56<Yaakov>We can get 16 but it is 10 bucks more a month, so I am going to hold off and see if we need it.
16:56<Ksilebo>I just want fiber run to my house.
16:56<Guspaz|m>adj: Yeah, they're an indie ISP, so when they realized that their hardware supported MLPPP, they decided to turn it into a selling point.
16:56<adj>thats pretty nifty
16:57<Ksilebo>I'd really like to get in on that.
16:57<Guspaz|m>A friend and I maintain a fork of the Tomato router firmware that adds MLPPP support (to make it braindead easy):
16:57<adj>Ksilebo: i'm holding my breath for fiber too. its coming down the road quickly
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16:57<Guspaz|m>The ISP is now selling routers pre-loaded with our firmware :_
16:58<Ksilebo>adj: ISP here in Colorado (Qwest) is supposed to have 20 Mbit DSL shortly.
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16:58<adj>i'm only ~1 mile from my office, i should just provide my own bandwidth over wireless
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16:59<adj>i mean... its not like 20 people come close to saturating 1000mbit fiber
16:59<Ksilebo>I used to live a couple miles from my work's datacenter downtown. Had LoS from my balcony to the building.
16:59<adj>err. 100mbit =) they fixed that
17:00<Guspaz|m>I could saturate 100mbit :(
17:00<adj>Guspaz|m: i do regularly
17:00<Guspaz|m>Well, I could saturate a GigE link, so I guess that's a given.
17:00<adj>but for how long ;)
17:00<Guspaz|m>24/7 in at least one direction.
17:01<Guspaz|m>The other, not so much.
17:01<Ksilebo>I could run some backups...
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17:14<Moox854>bye all ... and thanks for all the help
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17:14<Ksilebo>I would like a virtual token ring adapter installed on my linode someone please make that happen.
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17:20<@irgeek>Ksilebo: Add a cron job that randomly stops and starts networking. That should be a close approximation of token ring.
17:21<mwalling>no... you need to put a foot switch under your desk. when you push it, it uses an arduino with an ethernet shield to call up your linode, and disable networking.
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17:26<BarkerJr>chrome grows fast
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17:29<Ksilebo>Oh my god I haven't seen Peace and Protection mentioned for a looong time
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17:34<Guspaz|m>BarkerJr: Not really, those numbers are meaningless.
17:34<Guspaz|m>I mean, they show Firefox as having a larger marketshare than IE.
17:35<BarkerJr>you don't think more visitors of w3schools use firefox than ie?
17:36-!-Twayne [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:37<Guspaz|m>No, I mean, the visitor profile of w3schools is useless information ;)
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17:37<BarkerJr>that's the problem with all browser counts
17:42<Guspaz|m>There are counts that aggregate sufficiently large sample sets to have at least some semblence of accuracy.
17:42<Guspaz|m>One website isn't it.
17:43<Peng>Of course, what's relevant for making decisions for your website is its own browser statistics.
17:47-!-spkitty [] has joined #linode
17:47<BarkerJr>but who counts?
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17:48<Yaakov>The top browser on my site is Arachnid and the second is Lynx for Win32.
17:49<adj>Yaakov: like you, i have a lot of elinks users but most telnet in directly
17:49-!-Harry_Mudd [] has joined #linode
17:49<HoopyCat>top browser here is Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.01; Windows XP), followed closely by curl/7.19.6 (i386-pc-win32) libcurl/7.19.6 OpenSSL/0.9.8k zlib/1.2.3
17:49<Guspaz|m>Funny, I'd have thought that most of Yaakov's users would be browsing with a variety of NCSA software.
17:50<BarkerJr>lol stan
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17:50<Yaakov>Mosaic was down to 3.
17:50<Guspaz|m>That low? o_O
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17:52<BarkerJr>534 hits: 27.9% Firefox; 26.2% MSIE; 3.4% Chrome;
17:52<Guspaz|m>Located at the bottom of a phishing mail I just received:
17:52<Guspaz|m>Royal Bank of Canada is located at 2211 N. First St., San Jose, CA 95131.
17:52<mwalling>anyone know of a rss parser for java thats any good? i found a jakarta project, but it seems to be dead
17:53<BarkerJr>I'd probably just use jdom + jaxen and xpath the data
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17:55<BarkerJr>maybe I should write an RSS parser for java... that'd be fun
17:56<BarkerJr>I got my case of tissues from amazon today :)
17:56<HoopyCat>Guspaz|m: they may very well be somewhere around there. after all:
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17:58<HoopyCat>Guspaz|m: ah! and there's an RBC branch there, too:
17:58<Guspaz|m>The Bank of Nova Scotia can be found all over the place ;)
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17:59<Guspaz|m>What's funny is in the opening shot of both Police Academy and Police Academy 2, they start with a shot of a BMO (Bank of Montreal) skyscraper!
17:59<Guspaz|m>I believe the films were shot in Toronto, though, which is where that comes from.
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18:01<HoopyCat>Guspaz|m: but
18:01<BarkerJr>montreal is like hours away :P
18:01<HoopyCat>jesus saves his money in the bank of montreal
18:01<Guspaz|m>It looks like 1-4 were shot at least partially in Toronto.
18:01<Guspaz|m>BarkerJr: BMO is one of Canada's big five national banks.
18:02<BarkerJr>ooh, I thought you said Police Squad
18:02<Guspaz|m>No, Police Academy
18:02<BarkerJr>which is better?
18:02<Guspaz|m>I wouldn't know, I've only seen Police Academy.
18:03<BarkerJr>I haven't seen either :)
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18:16<Pryon>I'd say Police Squad >> Police Academy
18:16<Pryon>Unfortunately, there's much less of the former
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18:18<spkitty>oh god university challenge tonight nobody knew what the 'A' in LAMP stood for :v
18:20<stan_theman>bd_: thats the 'L'! :)
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18:21<BarkerJr>Linux And Microsoft Pages
18:22<spkitty>they said 'arial'
18:22<spkitty>and 'access'
18:22<spkitty>to be fair these are mostly history and lit students
18:23*BarkerJr hums a sesame street song... which of this things is not like the others?
18:23<stan_theman>better than aristotle and ayn rand?
18:25<Yaakov>Hello, spitkitty.
18:27-!-TheJoe is now known as TheJoe|ZzZz
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18:48<linbot>New news from forums: Proactive Notifications? in Sales Questions and Answers <>
18:49<HoopyCat>Llamas Are Massively Pimp
18:50<mwalling>thats what she said
18:58-!-Turl [] has joined #linode
18:59<Talman>In soviet russia, the llama enters you?
18:59-!-MarkJ_ is now known as MarkJ
18:59<stan_theman>as opposed to me entering the llama?
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19:05<mwalling>mike row's done it
19:05-!-kyhwana [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
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19:17<Pryon>Sounds like a gread idea for a B movie. Incan martial arts expert : "Enter the Llama"
19:18-!-cmjb [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
19:18-!-cmjb [] has joined #linode
19:20<Talman>Mike Rowe has entered everything.
19:20<Talman>Bridges, trains, pits, cow rectums...
19:20<Yaakov>Crouching Pryon, Hidden Urmom
19:22<jess^>phil collins unix would have a sussudio command to do stuff as root.
19:23-!-Tallken [] has joined #linode
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19:24<Talman>Hmm, Leo Laporte is telling people that VPS is bad because you're sharing the box with others.
19:24<orudie>i'm resizing my linode
19:24<Pryon>Talman: and this is bad because...
19:25<palintheus>SHARING IS BAD
19:25<Talman>He said that you're suffering if everyone else is suffering.
19:25<Pryon>Is it just me or is that retarded?
19:25<HoopyCat>Talman: he needs to look under "X" for "Xen", not "Z" for "Zen"
19:25<Thorgrim1>He's a putz
19:25<Pryon>What about if nobody is suffering?
19:25<Talman>Who's SquareSpace, and what virtualization manager lets you cloud your VPS instances?
19:26<MarkJ>So I'm guessing he must absolutely hate shared hosting if he hates VPS for that..
19:26<Talman>Oh, he lumped them together.
19:26<Pryon>He needs a linode so he can shut up
19:26<jess^>ugh i HATE 'dedicated uber alles!' people
19:26<Talman>He buys dedicated boxes.
19:26<HoopyCat>maybe he's thinking of openvz, which is approximately shared hosting
19:26<Talman>Then again, lets face it. Would we want his box on a linode?
19:26<palintheus>he needs to go back to instructing call-ins on how to change their wallpaper
19:26<Pryon>Good. I'd hate to share a VPS with somebody whose stupid might leak on to mine
19:26<Talman>He gets huge amount of traffic.
19:27<HoopyCat>you know who else got huge amounts of traffic?
19:27<Pryon>Yeah, he was a real manwhore
19:27<Talman>Ugh, he mentioned dreamhost.
19:27<HoopyCat>who is this person, anyway, and why does he matter?
19:28<HoopyCat>(i'm actually curious; i was joking when i called paul vixie a noob last night)
19:28<Battousai>vixie got nuthin
19:28<Thorgrim1>He's a male version of Kim Komando... talking head
19:30<Pryon>For a second I thought you were talking about Leslie Lamport and I was sad
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19:31<HoopyCat>oh! i remember kim komando from when i got my RSS feeds in a rolled-up assortment of paper every morning
19:32<Pryon>Rupert Murdoch would like a word with you
19:34<HoopyCat>adblock never worked and i couldn't unsubscribe from Judge Parker
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19:35-!-mode/#linode [+o array] by ChanServ
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19:37<mwalling>Talman: dreamhost underwrote teh stack overflow podcast for a while... i didnt stop listening to them
19:37-!-r4d0n [~r4d0n@] has joined #linode
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19:38<Talman>Leo Laporte is the guy who wa the face of Tech TV. I like him.
19:38<r4d0n>Hey, RSully here?
19:38<HoopyCat>mwalling: didn't they accidentally overwrite it a few times too?
19:38<mwalling>HoopyCat: *snark*
19:38<HoopyCat>!seen rsully
19:38<linbot>HoopyCat: rsully was last seen in #linode 5 hours, 14 minutes, and 33 seconds ago: * RSully enters Rick Astley in Nivex's Spotlight. Weeee 245 Hits!
19:38<orudie>how long does adjusting disk size taking after upgrade of linode ?
19:38<r4d0n>Anyone have Mac OS X with XCode or a C++ compiler?
19:39<orudie>that didn't make any sense :)
19:39<HoopyCat>orudie: minutes few, post-migration; longer if fsck due
19:39<orudie>it went quickly to 50 percent then stuck
19:39<jess^>the politics of ooooh feelin' good
19:40<orudie>now its done
19:40<HoopyCat>orudie: nod, probably just did a courtesy fsck
19:40<jess^>is that anything like a sympathy fsck?
19:40<linbot>mwalling: Yo momma's so fat, she must have been compiled with --fatroll-loops! (746:4/0) [momru]
19:40<linbot>The rules: (#1) ignore aaronyy, (#2) ignore b4, (#3) SelfishMan is the resident arrogant prick, (#4) mwalling is the resident asshole
19:41<jess^>i don't have a rule yet
19:41<mwalling>jess^: you could replace aaronyy
19:41*HoopyCat considers a parallelized fsck
19:42<jess^>i shouldn't feel bad about that (rule #4
19:42<mwalling>jess^: no, s/aaronyy/jess^/
19:42<jess^>mwalling: you're an asshole!
19:42<mwalling>jess^: and?
19:43-!-daMaestro [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
19:43<jess^>it means i shouldn't feel bad about you saying people should ignore me
19:43*tarpman has never really been one for following rules anyway...
19:43<mwalling>jess^: i didnt actually say that
19:43<mwalling>i just suggested it
19:44*jess^ shrugs
19:44<Pryon>You're not very good at this asshole thing
19:44<jess^>it's only a matter of time before i overextend my welcome and get b& from here
19:44-!-JDLSpeedy [] has joined #linode
19:44<Pryon>jess^: unlikely unless you're genuinely stupid or beligerant
19:44-!-JDLSpeedy [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
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19:45<HoopyCat>Pryon: consisting largely of the third derivative of position
19:45<Pryon>wouldn't that be accelerant?
19:46<Pryon>that's the 2nd derivative
19:46<Pryon>I'm confused now
19:47<HoopyCat>Pryon: jerk
19:47<Pryon>yeah, just got it
19:47<@jed>an accelerant is gasoline
19:47<Yaakov>jed: I prefer acetone.
19:47<Pryon>we need a jerkmeter
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19:48<linbot>New news from forums: Postfix virtual alias issues in Email/SMTP Related Forum <>
19:48*Pryon wonders, idly, at the difference between impulse and jerk
19:49-!-techman224 [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
19:49<Pryon>I guess continuing to read the article would help
19:49-!-techman224 [] has joined #linode
19:49<Yaakov>An impulse can be the cause of a jerk.
19:50<tarpman>I thought the third derivative was usually called jitter?
19:50<tarpman>or is that something else
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20:17<amitz>heh, I thought you're talking about impuls(iv)e and jerk...
20:17-!-kyhwana_ [] has joined #linode
20:18-!-r4d0n [~r4d0n@] has quit [Quit: r4d0n]
20:18<amitz>oh, you did... in a way.
20:18-!-kyhwana [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20:36<Yaakov>Ook. Oook.
20:38-!-HedgeMage [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:39*amitz throws banana to Yaakov
20:41<Pryon>not a Pratchett fan
20:43<mwalling>P.P.P.S. URMOM
20:44<bd_>Pryon: How come you came to the conclusion that that's a pratchett reference when doing so (regardless of whether the conclusion is correct or not) requires knowledge of a relatively minor (but important) character in the discworld franchise, which, being not a fan, you're not likely to have read in detail?
20:45<Pryon>I meant to convey that Yaakov was not making a Pratchett reference. Your analysis is otherwise correct.
20:46-!-kaitocracy [] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.0]
20:46<bd_>Pryon: what makes you think amitz was responding with a pratchett reference?
20:46<Pryon>Also, I mentioned this once to Yaakov in private, so I knew it would irritate him which is one of the few joys I have left.
20:46<Pryon>bd_: calculated risk
20:46<bd_>Pryon: very well, carry on then
20:47<Pryon>Yaakov: is is always in response to one of your "ook"s? If not, what other utterances cause people to Pratchett at you?
20:48<Pryon>Anyway, shouldn't you be rubbing your volvo with a diaper or something?
20:50<mwalling>Pryon: Yaakov's volvo passed on
20:50<amitz>oh, is pratchett something to eat?
20:50<bd_>amitz: Ook.
20:51*amitz throws banana to bd_
20:52<Yaakov>Pryon: I have been told, ERRONEOUSLY that I look like Pratchett.
20:52<Pryon>SelfishMan: naughty boy
20:52<SelfishMan>Pryon: eh?
20:53<Pryon>18:50 < SelfishMan> <redacted>
20:53<SelfishMan>Pryon: Why are you redacting me?
20:53<bd_>SelfishMan: You're redacting yourself now?
20:53<Pryon>you autoredacted
20:53<SelfishMan>I did no such thing
20:54<linbot>SelfishMan: Lb zbzzn'f fb htyl Yvabqr jbhyqa'g tb arne ure (827:0/3) [zezbh]
20:54<SelfishMan>!hezbz ibgr qbja 827
20:54<linbot>SelfishMan: Ibgrq qbja 827 [ezhzb]
20:54<Pryon>That's perverse
20:55<SelfishMan>!hezbz va cvt yngva
20:55<linbot>SelfishMan: Blnl bzzn'fznl bfnl ngsnl, rajunl rfunl ragjnl bgnl rgunl rnpuonl, rgunl vqrgnl nzrpnl vajnl! (829:3/0) [zzbhe]
20:55<SelfishMan>oh wow, that was totally incomprehensible
20:55<SelfishMan>(the rot13 encoding of !urmom in pig latin)
20:55<Yaakov>I have succeeded.
20:56<linbot>Yaakov: floating point processor overflow (8:0/0) [scsueex]
20:57<Pryon>SelfishMan: you need to teach linbot to translate hebrew
21:00<SelfishMan>Pryon: supybot doesn't properly encode the text
21:05<mwalling>well, then, we just need our own, better, bot
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21:39<Pryon>Justine Bateman.
21:40<linbot>mwalling: Lb zbzzn'f fb qhzo, fur gevrq gb rkbepvmr gur qnrzbaf sebz ure Yvabqr! (751:4/1) [ezzhb]
21:50<amitz>summer glau
21:54-!-KHobbits [] has joined #linode
21:54<path>linbot: ..|.,
21:54<amitz>she no longer loves you
21:55<amitz>I mean, can you imagine asking a woman to give out a reference to a hot woman everytime you ask? Linbot has enought of that shit.
21:56-!-Twayne [] has joined #linode
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21:58<linbot> ...
21:59<path>need a supybot module that auth's against oftc's nickserv
21:59<Trystan>n.b. the stick is attached to her back, you perverts
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22:23<kake26>hi all
22:24<kake26>Whats up everyone?
22:25-!-leandro [] has quit [Quit: Saliendo]
22:25<kake26>good answers
22:25<HoopyCat>a dipole antenna, some plaster...
22:26<mwalling>asphault shingles
22:26-!-p_quarles [] has quit [Quit: and that's terrible]
22:26<kake26></smart ass>
22:26<kake26>I am amused though
22:26<linbot>The rules: (#1) ignore aaronyy, (#2) ignore b4, (#3) SelfishMan is the resident arrogant prick, (#4) mwalling is the resident asshole
22:27<HoopyCat>one of my colleagues used to go with "hard dicks and aeroplanes" as his answer
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22:30<xtaylor>anyone else having upstream issues?
22:31<HoopyCat>nope, fish ladders operating nominally
22:31-!-cmjb [] has joined #linode
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22:33<kake26>Ubuntu is cool
22:37-!-GullyFoyle [] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.0]
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22:38<Toba>anyone else having lag in newark?
22:38<@tasaro>the internet is broken
22:39<@jed>something's up, we're having a look
22:39<Toba>thanks jed.
22:39<Toba>good to know you guys are on it
22:39<@jed>Toba: I was in a vim session on a Linode in newark when it started, not sure what's causing it
22:39<jforman>it was vim. vim is the devil.
22:39<Toba>yeah i am in a vim session too
22:39<Toba>can't get anything done
22:40<Toba>it's getting more jitter but less lag now
22:40<Toba>or that's what it feels like
22:40<sullen>vim is satans incarnate!
22:42<HoopyCat>i have the most awesome mtr ever
22:43-!-kake26 [] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal]
22:43<JoeK>how can i find the last login of a user?>
22:44<HoopyCat>looks like there's some packet loss in frankfurt, as the traceroute from newark to here is clean through london. oh, internet, i love you.
22:45<bob2>JoeK: lastlog
22:45<JoeK>if i login it should tell me :p
22:45<JoeK>shoudla thought ofg that before
22:46<JoeK>Last login: Wed Sep 9 17:20:03 2009 from
22:46<HoopyCat>if it makes anyone feel better, my wife just mentioned that her myface social web thing ain't working either, so i suspect it's just the end of the world as we know it
22:47-!-J-Node [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
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22:50<bob2>lenny bruce is not afraid
22:51-!-cmjb [] has joined #linode
22:52<linbot>HoopyCat: IP:; rDNS:; ASN adv net:; ASN: AS8359; ASN owner: COMSTAR-Direct Moscow region network; ASN reg: 1997-10-23; City: Moscow; State: Moscow City; Country: RU; Latitude: 55.7522; Longitude: 37.6156; UTC offset: 3;
22:52<linbot>HoopyCat: IP:; rDNS: None; ASN adv net:; ASN: AS3356; ASN owner: Level 3 Communications, LLC; ASN reg: 2000-03-10; Country: DE; Latitude: 51; Longitude: 9; UTC offset: 1;
22:52<HoopyCat>so how is 8359 getting into this path...
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23:04<designs703>my server's having huge , inexplicable problems :(
23:04<designs703>ram or something is getting hit so hard I can barely SSH in, and I *know* my site's aren't receiving more demand than before
23:05-!-arthurb__ [~arthurb@] has joined #linode
23:05<designs703>io has gotten out of control. over 10000, I swear. and I still get my email quickly :)
23:05<designs703>I have 440M free ram right now
23:06<designs703>it's like something is hitting my server very hard at certain times but I cannot diagnose
23:06<warewolf>cat /proc/io_status # if it exists
23:06<warewolf>install munin
23:06<designs703>I don't have it. I've watched iotop with no real revelations
23:06<designs703>I'll see munin
23:06<designs703>I probably should run all my upgrades since I'm about to reboot this thing
23:06<warewolf>munin does awesome things like this:
23:07<designs703>warewolf: thanks, is it a web app then?
23:07<warewolf>not really
23:07-!-arthurb_ [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
23:07<warewolf>it's a cron job that connects to a munin-node process, and then dumps to disk html and graphs.
23:07<Keith>What's going on with people's Linodes these days? Mine is just fine.
23:08<warewolf>designs703: also, 703/571 represent! w00w00
23:08<designs703>:) my biz
23:08<designs703>about 4yrs old now
23:08<designs703>I always have to purge my portfolio because people can't stay in business for long :(
23:08-!-Guest1425 is now known as meff
23:08<designs703>yea, some of my much better designs
23:09<warewolf>in this economy you're lucky to be in business yourself
23:09-!-achin_ is now known as achin
23:09<designs703>and people redesign over time so you lose that too, since you can't work for every client forever
23:09-!-meff is now known as Guest1431
23:09<designs703>I have a day job developing software though
23:09<designs703>this is for pocket money and such
23:09<designs703>thought it's been growing
23:09<Trystan>designs703: i tend to find a 'template' of the site, or a image work better
23:09<Trystan>than direct linking to them
23:09<warewolf>yeah screenshots are best
23:09<designs703>Trystan: good advice, I should do that. all my work seems to be dev these days
23:10<designs703>I swear if I have to touch a drupal site again
23:10<Trystan>cos you can do work you are really proud of
23:10<Trystan>then a year later company goes bust or something
23:10<Trystan>but its still something you wanna display :)
23:10<designs703>yea, my old HD died a year ago and I lost most of my early career work
23:10<designs703>now I back up
23:11<Trystan>i do alot of work with backups
23:11<Trystan>so its something i have in place by default
23:14-!-arthurb__ [~arthurb@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
23:15<designs703>munin doesn't like me
23:16<designs703>let me pastebin my conf
23:20<designs703>and the node conf
23:20<designs703>I get a "connection reset" error at
23:20<JoeK>how does xen allotocate resouces with linode?
23:21<JoeK>like i can create a 5gb partition, what happens with the remaining?
23:21<JoeK>is it allotocated or is it "open" ?
23:23-!-blognewb [~blognewb@] has joined #linode
23:23<designs703>nobody in #munin (literally) :(
23:24<amitz>JoeK: allocated for you
23:26-!-arthurb__ [] has joined #linode
23:27<designs703>how can I become the munin user? su - munin does not work (I think that maybe by running munin-cron I can get this running sooner)
23:27<packeteer>designs703: ream the su man page
23:28<packeteer>and yes, "su - username" should work from the command line
23:28<designs703>packeteer: so what am I supposed to read?
23:29<packeteer>man su
23:29<designs703>I'm familiar with su and related tools...
23:29<packeteer>ok then, i guess you don't need the docs :)
23:29-!-kyhwana_ [] has joined #linode
23:29<designs703>I just read it. the only option other than -/-l/--login is --shell. I'm comfortable with bash
23:30<designs703>maybe you and I have different man pages
23:30<packeteer>i think the syntax froma script is: su -c username
23:30-!-kyhwana [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
23:31<designs703>nothing appeared to happen
23:31<designs703>ran it, still doesn't load at that URL
23:32<designs703>FWIW I have no experience running a thing remotely related to Perl
23:32<designs703>Python, Ruby, PHP, etc. but never Perl or Java really
23:32<designs703>at least for server apps
23:33<designs703>links actually manages to grab part of the text before the connection is cut off
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---Logclosed Tue Nov 10 00:00:53 2009