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#linode IRC Logs for 2010-10-22

---Logopened Fri Oct 22 00:00:12 2010
00:00<DavidWhite>no, I'm not. I use yum.
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00:05<linbot>New news from forums: [SOLVED] Google Apps cannot verify. What am I doing wrong? in Email/SMTP Related Forum <>
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00:08<DavidWhite>I think the settings for virtual_domains is correct, I've decided. The issue is somewhere in the authentication layer
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00:26<linbot>atourino: Point (0.9246843272, 0.5459521634) is not within the circle. Running total: 3474/4392 (pi is about 3.1639344262)
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00:32<Boohemian>DavidWhite: linux works well like taht :)
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00:35<linbot>pwnguin: Point (0.6217736404, 0.8483885371) is not within the circle. Running total: 3481/4402 (pi is about 3.1631076783)
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00:51<DavidWhite>Boohemian: lol
00:51<DavidWhite>mikegrb: be quiet. :D
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01:03<DavidWhite>alright, Iv'e made good progress, but I'm going to have to finish it up next week.... time to go to bed and then go to NYC tomorrow evening after work to spend some time with a good friend of mine.... Thanks for the help, guys. I'm getting there! In a month, let's hope that I'm not bald. ;)
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01:29<amitz>DavidWhite: you will, eventually :-p
01:29<icez>I don't think he heard you :P
01:30<amitz>icez: I know, that's why I said it :-D
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01:41*snubby offers some anti perspirant stuff to them just raising hand
01:42<Ovron>How rude.
01:46<marius>look at #3
01:46<marius>summers face is like "Oh summer...just smile and it'll be over soon"
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02:02<Talman>Now that I've actually seen Firefly...
02:03<Talman>All this Summer and no Jewel. :(
02:03*Solver still hasn't seen firefy
02:03<Solver>one day :
02:03<marius>And so little Kaylee =(
02:04<marius>oh right, that is Jewel :P
02:04<marius>I knew that
02:04<marius>I liked her better with dark hair tbh
02:04<marius>Stargate: Extinction :o
02:05<Talman>I liked Kaylee.
02:06<Solver>marius: :)
02:07<marius>Me too
02:07<starcoder>shortage of 512's in London eh? :p
02:07<marius>that on eepisode I was like "wtf, don't do that to poor Kaylee!"
02:07<marius>starcoder: isn't my fault! xD
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02:08<Talman>Right, I'ma gonna go make a food item.
02:08<linbot>Talman: Linode512 - 322, Linode768 - 344, Linode1024 - 95, Linode1536 - 50, Linode2048 - 38, Linode4096 - 16
02:08<linbot>Talman: London512 - 2, London768 - 9, London1024 - 0, London1536 - 2, London2048 - 1, London4096 - 3, London8192 - 2, London12288 - 2, London16384 - 2, London20480 - 1
02:08<Talman>Seems to be a shortage of everything but 768s.
02:08<linbot>starcoder: (help [<plugin>] [<command>]) -- This command gives a useful description of what <command> does. <plugin> is only necessary if the command is in more than one plugin.
02:09<Ovron>!help help
02:09<linbot>Ovron: (help [<plugin>] [<command>]) -- This command gives a useful description of what <command> does. <plugin> is only necessary if the command is in more than one plugin.
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02:23<linbot>hzin: Fremont512 - 93, Fremont768 - 56, Fremont1024 - 0, Fremont1536 - 16, Fremont2048 - 11, Fremont4096 - 1, Fremont8192 - 1, Fremont12288 - 1, Fremont16384 - 1, Fremont20480 - 0
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02:46<Talman>Hey, what's the pipe sequence for unzipping a wget?
02:46<Talman>wget fil | unzip ?
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02:47<Kane`>Talman, there's an option for wget to output to stdout rather than a file
02:47<Kane`>you'll need that
02:47<StevenK>wget -O - <URL>
02:48<Talman>oh. nice.
02:48<StevenK>I don't think unzip will happily read from stdin, though
02:49<amitz>marius: heh, pic 29 :-p
02:50<bd_>ZIP files require seeking to decompress
02:50<bd_>you'll need to save it to a file before unzipping
02:50<Talman>I don't think it does.
02:50<Ovron>It does.
02:50<StevenK>wget -O - <URL> > && unzip
02:50<StevenK>There, one line, but no pipes. :-)
02:50<Talman>Not quite in the mood to write it, but yeah, when I write the one command deploy for joomla again, I'll have to use StevenK's again.
02:51<literal>StevenK: or just... wget -O URL && unzip
02:51<bd_>StevenK: ... -O perhaps? That way wget can resume failed downloads
02:51<linbot>New news from forums: Norwegian VAT Rules in Sales Questions and Answers <>
02:51<StevenK>Er, yeah :-)
02:51<bd_>anyway, ZIP files have their directory at the very end, which makes it impossible to decompress them until you have the whole thing. Hence seeking is necessary.
02:51<marius>amitz: hehe
02:52<Talman>Norway is imposing a 25% tax on internets.
02:52<Ovron>Who cares about norway anyway.
02:52*Ovron throws a tomato across the border
02:53<Ovron>Can I have it back? :(
02:53<Talman>Norway will have the most impressive firewall system ever to enforce this. :)
02:54<Talman>Otherwise, how are they going to know you have a flickr, a linode, or Minecraft?
02:54<Ovron>I doubt they will be able to enforce this in practice to be honest
02:54<Talman>They COULD! If they monitored all traffic leaving the country.
02:55<Ovron>Although, is Marius' interpretation of the law correct? Perhaps he just got it wrong :p
02:55<Ovron>It sounds a bit silly
02:55<Talman>"Law Enforcement," "Anti-Terrorism," and "Other stuff" pales to the power of tax collection. I fear the tax men.
02:56<Talman>I live in a country where you can go to jail for failing to disclose that you robbed people, because you have to be taxed on the robbery.
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02:56<Ovron>The Great Firewall of -C-h-i-n-a- Norway.
02:56<Talman>You swindle your company out of a million? Fail to disclose it, you'll have accountants with guns after you.
02:56<Ovron>Flee to sweden while there is time!
02:58<Ovron>It is already snowing in stockholm. This time of the year.
02:58*Ovron prepares for an iceage
02:59<Talman>That's just me.
02:59<Talman>If it shows up.
03:00<Talman>I like America. :(
03:02<linbot>New news from forums: Check/Money Order billing..... in Sales Questions and Answers <>
03:04<Talman>Why does everyone filter their IP but put their full email and hostname when quoting a vconf?
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03:08<linbot>New news from forums: Ubuntu 10.10 in General Discussion <>
03:09<Talman>ALso, oblig: I'm from america and what is a Sweden?
03:09<StevenK>Talman: 9.10 isn't an LTS
03:09<Ovron>I heard it is some weird ass city in alaska
03:09<marius>Ovron: snow is awesome.
03:09<Ovron>they apparently have polar bears walking their street
03:10<Ovron>(notice street, and not streets.)
03:10<Talman>I don't know what your talking about, StevenK. (Ninja Edit)
03:10<Talman>I've been to Alaska.
03:10<Talman>I met a bear.
03:10<StevenK>Talman: Your forum post in 'Ubuntu 10.10 in General Discussion'
03:10<Ovron>marius: I don't know, I am in malmö; almost as far south as you can get in sweden - and it is currently freezing winds and blowing like mad... and it isn't even november yet.
03:11<Talman>StevenK: Look again. Its late, you may of misread it.
03:11<Talman>Or, I edited it.
03:11<StevenK>Heh heh
03:12<marius>I'm further south then malmö! and it's snowing etc here too
03:12<marius>I love it!
03:12<StevenK>Talman: And it's only 6:12pm :-)
03:12<Ovron>What is worse, is if heavy snow falls. The people here drive like mad 120km/h on the freeway BECAUSE THE SIGN SAYS SO, and there's plenty of accidents whenever that happens.
03:14<Talman>The sign says to drive 120km/h during heavy snow?
03:14<@ericoc>3:14 am!
03:14<StevenK>You can't claim that, the US has 5 timezones
03:15<Ovron>UTC is the only real time
03:16<marius>CET 4 LYFE!
03:17<Ovron>CET is bad as long as CEST exists and regions use it. I hate daylight saving time.
03:18<Ovron>holy batman
03:18<marius>I know the register isn't th best news source in the world...but yeha
03:18<Ovron>I guess they REALLY love their objective-c
03:18<Talman>Is this some jab at Oracle?
03:19<Talman>Someone tell me why anyone would pay 10k for a mac server loaded with a bunch of stuff like apache?
03:19<Talman>Are you paying for "Its a Mac," or an enterprise SLA, or what.
03:19<marius>Its a Mac
03:19<Ovron>SLA? Sure. Brand? Hell yeah.
03:20<marius>I'd never touch one of'em
03:20<Ovron>I just love how they make them out that they are so very special. They aren't bad, not at all. I like my mac pro at the office, but they are hardly special.
03:21<bob2>it's a pretty usable unix
03:21<Talman>My penis is special, but people aren't paying 10 grand a ride.
03:21<marius>Talman: as with a mac, I wouldn't touch it with a 10 foot pole ;P
03:22<Ovron>MacOSX is a very complete OS. So you do pay a premium for it, even if they don't really say so.
03:22<marius>very complete?
03:22<marius>I think it a nightmare
03:22<Ovron>By that, I mean it is complete for most normal users, with software that they will need.
03:22<marius>I don't see how it's user friendly at all
03:23<Talman>You're not the intended client for my penis. :(
03:23<Talman>Like a mac, with proper marketing, I can get 10k a pop for my penis.
03:24<Ovron>Is your penis your prime feature? You make it sound like it is.
03:24<Talman>Oddly enough, no. But through proper marketing, people who are interested in penises won't care.
03:25<Talman>Not really sure that OSX Server is Apple's core discipline, but they do sell.
03:25<Ovron>It is not like HP or DELL is much cheaper when it comes to their server business.
03:27<Talman>I take it that having an HP server is not hip and will not get you a black turtleneck.
03:27<Ovron>You need a black belt in mac to wear turtlenecks.
03:27<Talman>Granted, you can't really drag an OSX 3U server down to the local starbucks. WHY IS IT ALWAYS STARBUCKS.
03:28<Ovron>Someone should just do that
03:28<Talman>My local starbucks is small.
03:28<Ovron>stack a few on a lorry, and go have a frappuccino
03:28<Talman>The one in Downtown Minneapolis is huge, badly lit, and cavernous.
03:28<Ovron>Sweden is like the single country in the world that does not have starbucks.
03:29<Talman>I also was ... because the baristas were "very attentive" and would try to push drinks on you while you're trying to do business on the phone and iwth your laptop.
03:29<Talman>I'm busy, bitch trying to sell weebsights. I'll order your expensive intrepretation on hot chocolate in 15 minutes when I'm done with this one.
03:30<Ovron>I worked as a barista during undergrad at uni. I love coffee! I wouldn't call the people at starbucks baristas, that would be an insult to proper ones :p
03:31<Talman>!library svn
03:31<linbot>Talman: 1. Manage Source Code Versions with Subversion ( - 2. Version Control Systems ( - 3. Manage Projects with Redmine on Ubuntu 9.10 (Karmic) (
03:31<Ovron>!library mercurial
03:31<linbot>Ovron: 1. Manage Distributed Version Control with Mercurial ( - 2. Git Source Control Management (
03:31<Ovron>^ <3
03:31<Talman>Meh, I guess I could just use Dreamweaver.
03:32<Talman>I'm not after VCS, I'm after syncing /srv/www/internal/domain/public_html/
03:32<Talman>So I can directly work with MyITCRM source.
03:34<Ovron>I just push my mercurial repos to live, while shutting down the site untill it is down.
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03:47<amitz>Ovron: how are they different than you?
03:48<Ovron>amitz: sorry?
03:50<amitz>Ovron: oh, about Starbuck's barristas
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03:52<Ovron>amitz: oh. I may be generalizing a bit, but they don't seem to really know what they are doing, other than being able to handle the machine they have there, and spew out coffee. There's much more to it, and I appreciate the knowledge behind it. A barista in italy for instance, is an honorable job.
03:52<Ovron>Starbucks is more like the mcdonalds of coffee shops ;)
03:54<Talman>Um, it is the McDonalds of coffee shops.
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03:54<marius>I was at some book shop
03:54<marius>with a built in coffee thingie
03:54<marius>it was awesome
03:54<Talman>The only people who are required to know anything are store managers, I think.
03:54<marius>I've never been big on coffee, but I enjoyed that
03:54<Talman>I like their non-coffee items, their free wifi, and the fact they don't use VLANs.
03:54<Talman>I'm that guy running ethereal.
03:55<Talman>Also, my company has a contract to FIX their wifi as a sub, so lol. I know their systems.
03:57<marius>where's my secret password?
03:57<marius>we all know there is one!
03:58<Ovron>is it bumblebee?
03:59<marius>We all know it ain't shibboleet!
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04:15<anon6995>Is there a way to test whether or not my subdomain is set up properly before it propagates?
04:16<marius>edit your hosts file
04:16<marius>*your local hosts file
04:16<anon6995>I'm not following
04:17<anon6995>set up my host file to point what to where?
04:17<marius>to point the subdomain to the IP you want
04:17<anon6995>that defeats the purpose
04:18<anon6995>I can access the subdomain via IP - I know it works.
04:18*Ovron facepalms
04:18<marius>then what is it you want t odo?
04:18<Kane`>anon6995, your hosts file is a local dns resolver
04:18*marius borrows Ovrons palm for his face
04:18<anon6995>see if my configuration is right for the subdomain
04:19<Ovron>What marius said, is what you probably want.
04:19<anon6995>As in, the configuration which points the subdomain to the file
04:19<Talman>We know.
04:20<Talman>By placing the subdomain in the hosts file, you'll resolve it without propagation and then see if your http server actually cares about the vhost.
04:20<anon6995>I don't know if my configuration is right, I don't know if the domain will ever propagate. That's what I want to test.
04:20<Ovron>You need to make your browser send the Host-header with the correct value, setting it in the local hosts file will allow it to do just that.
04:20<Talman>Why will the domain not propagate?
04:20<anon6995>Because I don't know if I've set it up right
04:21<anon6995>isn't changing the host file basically just a local-side redirect?
04:21*Ovron is confuzzled
04:21<marius>change it like we said
04:21<marius>you'll be fine
04:21<Ovron>Do you want to test your DNS records, or virtualhost setup in some webserver?
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04:26<Talman|Ayanami>Poor, Poor, netbook.
04:26<Talman|Ayanami>It was blue.
04:27-!-Talman|Ayanami is now known as Talman|Netbook[Ayanami]
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04:28<anon6995>What should my hostname be in my A Record when adding a subdomain?
04:29<Kane`>anon6995, i alt+tabbed out and cbf checking if anyones helped. but for dns debugging:
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04:31<anon6995>added this to my hosts
04:31<anon6995>my A/AAA record is as such;
04:31<anon6995>jobs Default
04:31<Talman|Netbook[Ayanami]>Who's DNS manager are you using?
04:31<Talman|Netbook[Ayanami]>Linode or someone else's?
04:31<anon6995>The Linode one
04:31<Talman|Netbook[Ayanami]>You know you have togive it 15 minutes, right?
04:32<anon6995>right, cool - thanks
04:32<Talman|Netbook[Ayanami]>It queus and updates on the 15s.
04:32<Talman|Netbook[Ayanami]>Have you tried going to the site before it resolved?
04:32<Ovron>Linode's DNS servers are responding for the domain, however the subdomain is still not being answered for. Probably the delay.
04:32<Talman|Netbook[Ayanami]>Try again at 46 after. BUT, problem. Your local DNS server has cached nxdomain.
04:33<Ovron>If you go and check in the DNS manager, it tells you when it was last updated. Is that time past your changes?
04:33<Talman|Netbook[Ayanami]>Try flushing DNS (Windows is ipconfig /flushdns)
04:33<Ovron>Talman|Netbook[Ayanami]: Easiest is to just ask the DNS servers ;)
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04:34<anon6995>last modified : 2010-10-22 09:29:22 AM last generated: 2010-10-22 09:30:18 AM
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04:34<Ovron>anon6995: do you have any other subdomains done since before?
04:34<Talman|Netbook[Ayanami]>RIght, putting this little one to sleep.
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04:35<Ovron>But yeah, www and just the domain is being answered for, so just give it a while.
04:35<Talman>Seriously, its a HP netbook, its tiny.
04:35<Ovron>And the DNS servers are answering for it now.
04:35<marius>netbooks name?
04:36<marius>I approve.
04:36<Talman>Netbook[Auska] and Netbook[Ayanami]
04:36<Ovron> 86400 IN A anon6995 if that is the IP you expect, you're set.
04:36<marius>you should meet the gang at home :P
04:36<Talman>One is red, the other is blue.
04:36<anon6995>cool thanks ovron
04:36<Talman>marius, what does Talman mean in whatever the hell language it is?
04:37<marius>I have Narusegawa, the desktop (Naru for short)
04:37<Talman>Swedish maybe? I forget.
04:37<marius>Talman: no idea?
04:37<marius>well, that ain't swedish o_O
04:37<Ovron>Swedish? umad?
04:37<Talman>The orator.
04:37<marius>Talsman ?
04:37<Talman>Its one of those bork languages. :(
04:38<Talman>Anyway... Its a giant play on words, my nick.
04:38<Talman>Talman = Speaker = Speaker for the Dead = Andrew Wiggin = Ender.
04:38<marius>Then Minami is my iPod
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04:38<Talman>My iPod is Yui.
04:38<Talman>And my desktop is Shinji.
04:38<marius>Tasha is the old laptop
04:38<marius>Yuni is the new laptop
04:38<Ovron>Japanese much?
04:38<Talman>The linode is Tamaki, and the onsite "server" is Manaka.
04:39<marius>phone is Chiriko
04:39<Ovron>Unless you actually are japanese, I will be forced to call you weeaboo from now on.
04:39<marius>Ovron: anime<3
04:39<Talman>I have a Japanese GF, does that count?
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04:39<marius>I'm stealing his japanese gf, does that count?
04:39<Ovron>Talman: fair enough, bordercase.
04:39<Talman>(This is technically a lie.)
04:39<Talman>She lives in Virginia.
04:39<Ovron>And she doesn't know about it yet, right?
04:40<Talman>She knows. She demanded I name the iphone Yui.
04:40<Talman>According to the sheet, it should be named Maya.
04:40<marius>following 1st character incremental?
04:40<Ovron>You actually name your devices
04:40<marius>I just pick what I think sounds adorable there and then
04:40<Talman>Asset list.
04:41<Talman>All servers are named after female leads from To Heart 2, all laptops/PCs after Evangelion characters (children), portable devices after adult female characters from Eva.
04:41<Talman>One of the many ways that I amuse myself at the expense of my customers.
04:42<marius>I'd get slapped by my boss if I did that xD
04:42<Talman>"which server are you on?" "I'm on... um... tamaki. Is that how you say it?"
04:42<Talman>I am the boss. :)
04:42<marius>it's fun at home
04:42<Talman>Old owner: We should name the server after my dog.
04:42<Ovron>I work at a chemistry dept, I give you one chance to guess what we call our devices.
04:42<marius>the router is Nadesico
04:42<Talman>Yeah... the router is dd-wrt.
04:43<amitz>marius: why not ygdrassil?
04:43<marius>listenign to someone else try to say the ycan't conenct to it is fun
04:43<marius>sinc eyou don't pronounce it like yo uspell it xD
04:43<marius>good boy
04:43<Talman>If your password is ruriruri, you're getting hacked. :|
04:43<marius>but I do have a machine named Hoshino
04:44<Ovron>Wow. I escape a game-related channel to avoid the overly weeaboo people, and I get thrown into this, here.
04:44*Ovron unplugs from the internet
04:44<marius>how I love nadesico :D
04:44<Talman>YOU FOOL.. Its always been like this. Where's amitz.
04:44<Ovron>nooooo, say it is not so
04:44<Talman>Check the logs.
04:44<Talman>I just haven't been around.
04:44<marius>it's true
04:44<marius>e and amitz randomly fall into it xD
04:45<Ovron>So Talman is the cause.
04:45<amitz>Ovron: I always believe that Talman and marius are the duo weirdos here. I pity them.
04:45<marius>I'd blame urmom
04:45*Ovron homes his murder nanobots at Talman
04:45<Talman>Only a contributing factor.
04:45<marius>I've been pondering something
04:45<marius>how come everyone in the world are morons, and I'm the only normal perosn..?
04:45<Talman>Your nanomachines cannot survive the purified air of my bunker.
04:46<Talman>Query: Why do I have to watch J-Dramas to appease my GF?
04:46<Ovron>I see that my social engineering is working out, you've already disclosed your location
04:46<marius>This discussio nis diverting me form my goal of the day
04:46<Talman>Your social engineering has failed you, this information is public! AND FALSE.
04:46<marius>to actually do work xD
04:46<Talman>I've been debating work.
04:46<amitz>marius: itym to do minecraft ;-)
04:46<Talman>But Minecraft is open.
04:46<Ovron>I am off work today, as I was yesterday. Om nom nom freetime.
04:46<Talman>GOD DAMN YOU ALL.
04:47<marius>amitz: nah, not atm
04:47<marius>I'm sruggeling with python again =(
04:47<marius>well, the PIL library actaully
04:47<Talman>Site B has a massive thingy of lava in it. I think I bored a hole straight to hell.
04:47<marius>Talman: that's because you havne't seen mine yet ;P
04:47<marius>the linode staffers were all over my map last night loving it
04:47<Ovron>I refuse to play the autism simulator. :<
04:48<marius>why won't you support your fellow countryman !?!
04:55<marius>Way to kill the conversation, ovron! >=(
04:55<Ovron>have you an problem's? (:
04:55<anon6995>working now! thx all :)
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04:59<Talman>Site B is basically 128 tnt's dropped on a hill from about 40 squares up.
05:00<marius>Talman: I shall send thee a PM ;P
05:00<Talman>I am currently running mine cat track around the edges of the hole.
05:00<marius>lunch time :D
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05:12<ctf>Anybody here?
05:13<Ovron>test failed, please follow instructions found under §43 section 5A.
05:13<ctf>Anyway... I'm having this issue with my domain names. I've added them in the DNS manager and setup the VirtualHosts but they all, for some reason, load the one, same website.
05:14<linbot> <-- paste here, not in the channel
05:14<Ovron>^ the relevant bits of the vhost configurations
05:14<ctf>Okay, two secs (thanks for helping)
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05:17<ctf>Ovron, I haven't used before, it's asking for a username and password.
05:17<Ovron>It does? I didn
05:17<Ovron>I didn't think it did *
05:18<Ovron> <-- instead, if you wish.
05:18<ctf>Alright, I use that instead.
05:18<ctf>I hope you don't mind me blurring a few details
05:19<Ovron>as long as they are irrelevant I couldn't care less ;)
05:19<ctf>Alright, hopefully this link works:
05:19-!-saikat [] has quit [Quit: saikat]
05:19<ctf>That's my httpd.conf file, as I tried the Linode guide and I could never get it to work.
05:20<ctf>Though, I think I just realised why the guide I followed didn't work - I forgot to add the DNS entries xD
05:20<ctf>So I could probably revert to the old way that I did it, or I could stick to what I've done in the httpd.conf file.
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05:20<Ovron>What you have should work.
05:21<Ovron>in the configuration file, that is.
05:21<ctf>Well, it does to an extent
05:21<ctf>Except, all the domains, for some reason, only load the AAA directory
05:22<ctf>I may have found the issue
05:22<ctf>let me try something, brb
05:22<Ovron>as root: apache2ctl -S
05:22<Ovron>Will show you how apache sees virtualhosts. Perhaps something will be odd there.
05:23<ctf>Alright, I'll do that in a moment, if what I just did doesn't fix it
05:23<Ovron>You should also move out each virtualhost to its own file. ;)
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05:24<ctf>Yeah, that's what I had originally but I couldn't get it to work (I now realise that's because I didn't add the DNS entries, xD). I may as well revert it to what I had before.
05:24<Talman>Holy shit, express minecart ride straight to hell.
05:24<ctf>Okay, what I just changed did not fix the issue, I'll revert to what I had before (separate files)
05:24<ctf>I'll run that command first, though
05:25<ctf>Okay, I'm going to pastebin what it says
05:26<ctf>Ooohhh, it seems to take the first VirtualHost over all the following ones
05:27<ctf>that explains why they're all showing the AAA website
05:27<ctf>It says it's because of a VirtualHost overlap on port 80
05:27<Ovron>I expected that, but wasn't sure if that was going to happen. I guess it wants them separated in files.
05:27<ctf>Yup, alright then. I'll go ahead and do that now. Thanks for helping :)
05:28<Ovron>NameVirtualHost should go into ports.conf, btw.
05:29<ctf>Ah k, the Apache document I read said to put it into the httpd.conf file. I've just opened my ports.conf file, and it has the NameVirtualHost hashed out
05:29<ctf>but, it has "Listen 80"
05:30<Ovron>It makes sense having them in ports.conf at least, perhaps it isn't the "recommended" location.
05:30<ctf>Ah k, fair enough.
05:30<ctf>I'll leave it for the moment, because it might work without me having to change anything
05:33<ctf>Okay, same error
05:34<ctf>[warn] _default_ VirtualHost overlap on port 80
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05:35<ctf>I'm guessing the ports file?
05:35<Ovron>Do you have a file called defaults or 000-defaults in sites-available?
05:36<Ovron>default, not defaults *
05:36<ctf>Nope, I've only got my websites and "default" and "default-ssl"
05:37<Ovron>does any of your sites' files get ordered before default in a ls?
05:37<ctf>yes, one
05:37<Ovron>a2dissite default && mv default 000-default && a2ensite 000-default
05:37<ctf>oh wait, in a ls
05:37<ctf>is that the same as dir?
05:37<Ovron>well, alphabetical order
05:37<ctf>ah k, yep, that one website does
05:38<ctf>and okay, I'll do that now
05:38<Ovron>disable default, rename default to 000-default, and enable that one
05:38<Ovron>Will make sure it is loaded first.
05:38<ctf>Default was already disabled (if that means anything to you), continuing to rename it and enable
05:39<Ovron>oh, if it was disabled... then it shouldn't matter.
05:39<Ovron>You sure it was disabled? Apache seems to have whined about it.
05:39<ctf>Well, that's what shell told me
05:40<ctf>I'm almost considering starting all over again, but I don't want to go through all the hassle of setting everything up from the very start xD
05:40<Ovron>If you don't have a default file for a NameVirtualHost, accessing it via IP will fall on deaf ears, so to say.
05:41<ctf>I'm not sure I follow? (I'm still learning about this all)
05:41<ctf>so, that deafult site that I disabled and shell told me was disabled, I need one of those?
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05:42<Ovron>Well "need" is a relative term, but without it, accessing the webserver via the IP address that it is listening on will not do anything, as it will expect a virtualhost, and it hasn't been told what to do otherwise.
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05:43<ctf>ah k, I think I get you
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05:43<Ovron>I remember the error you are getting though. Renaming default to 000-default solved it for me, as it required that file to be loaded first.
05:44<ctf>I'll rename it, enable it and test it
05:44<ctf>two secs
05:45<ctf>when I go to enable 000-default, it says that "Site default does not exist"
05:45<ctf>a2ensite 000-default
05:45<ctf>ERROR: Site default does not exist!
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05:45<Ovron>you changed it in sites-available right, not -enabled?
05:46<ctf>I would have thought it'd say "Error: Site 000-default does not exist!"
05:46<ctf>yup, available
05:46<Ovron>So a file called 000-default exists in sites-available
05:46<Ovron>and you are issuing: a2ensite 000-default?
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05:47<ctf>Maybe I should reboot the server
05:47<Ovron>Try restarting apache.
05:47<ctf>I did xD
05:47<Ovron>does default or 000-default exist in sites-enabled?
05:48<ctf>Neither exist in -enabled.
05:48<Ovron>are you sure you're writing a2ensite 000-default, and not a2dissite?
05:49<Ovron>I am not sure what is going on then. Try doing a manual symlink to sites-enabled and restart apache, I guess.
05:49<ctf>symlink? What's that?
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05:50<Ovron>Symbolic link. Which is what a2(en|dis)site do basically.
05:50<amitz>you make a shortcut inside sites-enabled that links to sites-available.
05:50<ctf>I see
05:50<amitz>or other places.
05:50<Ovron>ln -s /etc/apache2/sites-available/000-default /etc/apache2/sites-enabled/000-default
05:51<ctf>Alright, thanks :)
05:51<amitz>powerful stuff I unfortunately don't take advantage of in managing my folders.
05:51<Ovron>Not sure why a2ensite is telling you it doesn't exist though. Weird.
05:52<ctf>Okay, this is odd
05:52<marius>can you make a symlink that uses commands? :o
05:52<ctf>I just tried again, but with a typo
05:52<amitz>I believe because I was bitten once by symlink when doing rm -r...
05:52<ctf>Hang on, I'll paste what happens
05:52<Ovron>amitz: rm should need like 3 force switches
05:52<Ovron>rm --force --yesiamsure --yesiamreallysure
05:53<ctf>a2ensite 000-defaulr
05:53<ctf>ERROR: Site 000-defaulr does not exist!
05:53<ctf>a2ensite 000-default
05:53<ctf>ERROR: Site default does not exist!
05:53<amitz>Ovron: not the rm -rf
05:53<amitz>I meant, not the rm -rf /
05:53<ctf>Why did it says "Site *default* does not exist" and not "Site *000-default* does not exist"?
05:53<Talman>Every time I see this, it frightens me.
05:54<Ovron>ERROR: Site 000-thisonedoesnotexist does not exist!
05:54<Talman>They didn't actually include ssh or subversion, they just suggest you use other crap.
05:54<Ovron>When I try one that does not exist.
05:54<Ovron>So I am not sure what's up with your a2ensite
05:54<ctf>Apache *must* know that 000-default is the default file, right?
05:54<Ovron>No, it doesn't.
05:54<ctf>Otherwise it wouldn't say "default", it would say "000-default"?
05:54<Ovron>The reason you would append 000 is for it to make sure it appears first in a directory listing
05:54<ctf>Yeah, I know
05:54<Ovron>and as such, be the first file to be read in
05:55<ctf>but if I say 000-thaethaethah, it'll say "000-heathet", not removing the "000-" at the start
05:55<ctf>^ wasn't the best example xD
05:55<Ovron>rename 000-default to 000-herpderp
05:56<Ovron>and try a2ensite that one
05:56<ctf>LMAO! It worked.
05:56<Ovron>Perhaps it does take special care about 'default' - mine are called 000-default1, 000-default2 etc
05:56<Ovron>well, isn't that cute
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05:57<ctf>Well this is confusing, does it matter if it's herpderp or default?
05:57<ctf>as long as it loads first, it should be okay, right?
05:57<Ovron>It probably matters that it is 'default', and anything else does not.
05:57<Ovron>Yeah, actual filename is irrelevant for the greater cause ;)
05:57<ctf>Alright, cool, haha.
05:57<ctf>Let me try it out
05:58<ctf>none of my websites can be accessed now
05:58<ctf>I gotta go too >.<
05:58<ctf>Will you be here in 20 minutes?
05:58<Ovron>check /var/log/apache2/error.log
05:58<Ovron>Yeah, I guess I will.
05:58<ctf>Alright, I'll do that when I get back.
05:59<ctf>Okay, thanks a bunch for your help :)
05:59<ctf>see ya later
05:59<Ovron>You're welcome, o/
06:07<Talman>>.> "How do I post a video on 4chan? I want to share my friend's video and help her get more views."
06:07<Talman>Is this ilike the worst idea ever?
06:07<Ovron>herp derp, that's all.
06:12<ctf>Okay, I'm back
06:13<Friction[2]>4chan has a strict child porn only policy
06:13<spkitty>wrong chan
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06:15<ctf>Ovron, are you there?
06:15<Ovron>I am
06:15<ctf>I renamed the 000-herpderp back to default, because it's still not working
06:15<ctf>I'm not entirely sure what to do now. I'm going to disable all sites, renable and reboot
06:16<Ovron>I'd put it back as 000-something (other than default), restart apache, and check apache2ctl -S again
06:16<ctf>Okay, I'll do that then
06:16<Ovron>and check /var/log/apache2/error.log (unless you changed the location in apache2.conf)
06:16<ctf> Oh yeah
06:17<ctf>Okay, everything is disabled, I've yet to rename default to 000-something, but I've got this:
06:17<ctf>[warn] NameVirtualHost 74.XXX.XXX.XXX:80 has no VirtualHosts
06:17<ctf>Is that a normal warning when all websites are disabled?
06:18<amitz>a good troll is indiscernable from a good conversationalist. A good conservationalist emphasize on the mutual pleasures of everybody involved, not on his/her own pleasure.
06:18<Ovron>change <VirtualHost *:80> to <VirtualHost actualip:80>
06:18<ctf>In each website.tld ?
06:18<Ovron>If you have a NameVirtualHost actualip:port, you need to specify at least one <VirtualHost actualip:port> that matches.
06:19<Ovron>So yes, in all of them.
06:19<ctf>That amy very well be the problem
06:19<Ovron>It is the problem ;). Logs are useful, and apache isn't too cryptic.
06:19<ctf>may*, I don't know who Amy is.
06:20<ctf>What about the default and default-ssl files?
06:20<ctf>Do I need to change those (I don't remember touching them before, at all)
06:20<Ovron>I'd still put those as 000-something
06:20<Ovron>To make sure they are loaded first.
06:20<amitz>Amy is the brain of Sailor Moon team.
06:20<marius>we're back on anime :D
06:20-!-loxs [~loxs@] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
06:20<Ovron>I will pretend I didn't read that
06:21<marius>Sailor Venus ftw!
06:21<amitz>marius: indeed, I regret denying who I am. Will you forgive me?
06:21<ctf>lol @amitz
06:21<marius>amitz: but of course, now come join the gorup hug :3
06:21<Ovron>Who was the one producing cattleprods? I want to order a few.
06:21*amitz hugs everybody, and ctf, and Ovron.
06:22<Ovron>My rifle on my vanquisher in torchlight is enchanted to the teeth, dayum. Pewpew.
06:23<amitz>Ovron: btw, IIRC, Sailor Venus use lashes.
06:23<John>Can anyone comment on the reliability of Linodes London servers?
06:23<Ovron>amitz: thanks for the information, I am taking notes of this
06:23<Talman>1) Ami, not Amy. This is not DiC.
06:23<Talman>2) Quit thinking of Manako like that. -.-
06:24<Ovron>John: I am using a linode in london, nothing to complain. The datacenter is telecity, so doubt you'd find anything to complain about network-wise.
06:24<Talman>3) Keep your cattle prod, I got a taser.
06:24<marius>John: perfect to date.
06:24<ctf>Okay, ever since I changed my ports.conf file, I think it stopped working. Originally the ports.conf file had just "Listen 80", with the "NameVirtualHost IP:PORT" commented out. But since I've commented the "Listen 80" and un-commented the "NameVirtualHost", nothing seems to be working. Should I revert?
06:24<Talman>4) Isn't London required to allow the Queen to view all data at her pleasure?
06:24<Ovron>Way what
06:24<Ovron>You commented Listen 80?
06:24<marius>I IRC from there on the current connection and it's only died once, and that was because the server I was on got dos'ed, not my node failing :D
06:25<Talman>So, its not listening to any port.
06:25<Ovron>You want it like this:
06:25<John>Just at trial stage of deploying new subscription based website. just failed 2 days after subscribing with 16 hour downtime on London F, so next stop is Linode
06:25<ctf>Sorry, I'm a bit of a newbie xD
06:25<marius>John, you'll be pleased
06:25<Talman>John: Why London DC?
06:25<ctf>I thought you could either have "Listen 80" or "NameVirtualHost", but not both
06:25<Talman>UK users?
06:25<ctf>I see
06:25<John>at first yes, UK
06:25<marius>in my 2+ years here I've only experienced 15 minutes downtime that wasn't self caused and that was a faulty ram which was promptly replaced
06:25<ctf>I'll change that now, lol
06:25<Talman>NObody's thrown fits about London.
06:25<John>then will deploy US servers once our attention moves across the pond
06:26<Talman>I've had downtimes. That's why I moved from Dallas.
06:26<marius>oh right, there was that massive ddos a couple months back, but that didn't touch london :D
06:26<amitz>Talman: oh, purist (concerning name), I like that!
06:27<John>I'm moving from an extremly reliable dedicated servers, but there VPS options are rubbish
06:27<marius>I've had more reliability form my linodes then any of the dedis I've had through th eyears
06:28<Ovron>Linode has this special warm and fuzzy feeling as well.
06:28<marius>And it has us *makes sweeping hand motion over the channel*
06:28<Talman>DiC is evil.
06:28<John>thanks for your opinions, will fire up a base package and give it a spin
06:28<Talman>No, it has me.
06:29<Ovron>Ignore these people, they are lesser beings. Anime. Pfft.
06:29<Talman>I actually downgraded from 768 to 512 when the 360s became 512s.
06:29<chesty>amitz: you have a programming job now?
06:29<Talman>Ovron: I only know what anime is due to ex-GFs.
06:29<Talman>Don't make me burn you with fire.
06:29<ctf>Awww. They're all still showing the same AAA directory, rather than what they've been assigned to show. I have renamed default to 000-default.
06:29<Ovron>apache2ctl -S
06:29<ctf>I'll check the log
06:29<ctf>and that too
06:30<marius>ctf: do yo uhave multiple virtualhosts?
06:30<marius>(Sorry, I just decided to join this convo :P)
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06:30<marius>because I'd give removing the default altogether then reloading a spin :P
06:31<Ovron>It shouldn't matter if it is detected as default in apache2ctl -S
06:31<marius>(It's what I've had to do on every single apache setup, as the default seems to override most stuff for some odd reason)
06:31<Ovron>that is because shit hits the fan if it isn't loaded first
06:31<amitz>chesty: I decided to go entrepreneury. :-p
06:31<ctf>Sorry, I was AFK
06:31<marius>amitz: again?
06:31<chesty>amitz: so your boss is an idiot then?
06:32<Ovron>Do apache2ctl -S and pastebin output
06:32<chesty>amitz: and congrats
06:32<amitz>marius: oh, that was non-IT entrepreneury ;-)
06:32<ctf>Marius, I'll try that later if what I'm doing doesn't work :)
06:32<ctf>Ovron, I've got a very different output this time, I'm just having a read through it
06:32<amitz>chesty: for having an idiot boss or for taking this path? ;-)
06:32<chesty>amitz: both
06:33<marius>amitz: there's suc ha thing as an IT-entrepeneur?
06:33<marius>Sounds like a programmer to me!
06:33<Talman>Oh, this is going to be FUN.
06:33<amitz>marius: hush! ;-)
06:33<Ovron>You should get output along the lines of: IPHERE:PORTHERE is a NameVirtualHost \newline default server HOSTNAMEHERE (PATH/TO/CONFIG) \newline port 80 namevhost HOSTNAMEHERE (PATH/TO/CONFIG) and repeat for each virtual host.
06:34<ctf>I'll pastebin, two secs
06:35<Ovron>[error] VirtualHost 74.XXX.XXX.XXX:0 -- mixing * ports and non-* ports with a NameVirtualHost address is not supported, proceeding with undefined results
06:35<ctf>I read that, but I have no idea what it's talking about
06:35<ctf>All of my files specify :80
06:35<Ovron>did you put IP:PORT in all instances?
06:36<Ovron>and not *:PORT
06:36<Ovron>no, you couldn't have
06:36<ctf>Maybe one of the files didn't save. I'll check, disable and re-enable
06:36<Ovron>There is an error somewhere in your files.
06:37<Ovron>By the looks of that output, there's errors in multiple places
06:39<ctf>Okay, I've disabled and re-enabled, no errors this time :D
06:39<ctf>let's hope it works
06:39<ctf>Works :D
06:39<Ovron>disabling and enabling does nothing except symlinks files
06:40<Ovron>I take it you forgot to restart apache?
06:40<ctf>I re-uploaded, btw
06:40<ctf>the files
06:40<ctf>I'm editing my files through dreamweaver because I hate using vi
06:40<marius>So a nuclear sub hit ground outside scotland
06:40<Ovron>ctf: herp
06:40<ctf>and that is *with* 000-default
06:41<ctf>I wonder if it'd work without the 000-, but I'm not sure if I should bother
06:41<Ovron>does it have similar output to my psuedo line earlier?
06:41<Ovron>Guess you're set then ;)
06:41<marius>Ovron: your from malmö ?
06:41<ctf>Very happy :)
06:41<Ovron>keeping 000- is a good choice, to make sure it is loaded first.
06:41<ctf>Thanks a bunch for your help :)
06:41<Ovron>marius: yes
06:41<Ovron>ctf: you're welcome
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06:42<John>Well that was good, signed up for base linode product and none are available in UK :(
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06:42<linbot>Ovron: London512 - 0, London768 - 6, London1024 - 0, London1536 - 0, London2048 - 0, London4096 - 3, London8192 - 2, London12288 - 2, London16384 - 2, London20480 - 1
06:42<linbot>Talman: London512 - 0, London768 - 6, London1024 - 0, London1536 - 0, London2048 - 0, London4096 - 3, London8192 - 2, London12288 - 2, London16384 - 2, London20480 - 1
06:42<Talman>That was quick.
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06:42<Ovron>And only 6 768 left ;|
06:42<Talman>Suggestion: Buy one in Jersey, migrate when a London becomes available.
06:42<John>Is it easily done?
06:42<linbot>Talman: Newark512 - 69, Newark768 - 87, Newark1024 - 37, Newark1536 - 6, Newark2048 - 4, Newark4096 - 2, Newark8192 - 0
06:42<Ovron>Or, grab a 768 if that is possible for you.
06:42<marius>Ovron: I just read ze news abotu some gun desperado runnig naroudn there?
06:43<Talman>Its a ticket, and about ... 20 minutes to transfer. The most is the new IP.
06:43<Ovron>marius: yep... there have been shootings the last three days, and I think one was fatal :/
06:43<marius>yeah, a woman
06:43<Talman>!library host migration
06:43<marius>I'm seeing the map now, 15 shootings :o
06:43<linbot>Talman: 1. Install the lighttpd Web Server on Ubuntu 9.10 (Karmic) ( - 2. Make a Web Server with lighttpd on Debian 5 (Lenny) ( - 3. Linux System Administration Basics (
06:44<Ovron>marius: malmö has gone down the drain during the last year. Much more gang related shit going down, and now this psycho.
06:44<marius>It's racial-related?
06:44<marius>at least that's what the news are portraying it as
06:44<Ovron>The police thinks it is, yes
06:44<marius>except they shot at the police building on the 14th of march o_O
06:45-!-Cromulent [] has quit []
06:45<Ovron>and teenagers have been shooting at busses -- I was on my way to uni in my car few weeks ago, and a buss had pulled over as someone shot against the side of it
06:46<ctf>Wait, where's this?
06:46<Ovron>Malmö, Sweden.
06:46<ctf>That's horrible.
06:46<marius>Speaking of Gee
06:46<marius>soudns like Glee
06:46<ctf>Oh no
06:46<marius>sounds like the two hotties dressed lightly in a magazine and parents saying it borders on child porn
06:47<Ovron>'Community' is at least funny, Glee is... well, herp
06:47<Ovron>pr0n w00t
06:47<Ovron>It is them feminists.
06:47<marius>it's the two hottie girls adn that anoying guy
06:47<marius>could've done without the guy
06:49<Ovron>Telia offering 1000/100mbps connections now as well, 99euro to anyone that is connected to their fiber network
06:49<marius>we've got 500/500 as the max atm
06:49<ctf>I can't wait for the NBN in Australia. I'm only on 5.5/1
06:49<Ovron>marius: where are you located?
06:51<marius>Stavanger, Norway
06:53<ctf>I've gotta go for the moment. I might be back later though :)
06:53<ctf>Thanks again, Ovron
06:53<ctf>See ya later!
06:53<Ovron>Welcome! Bye bye
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07:13<John>Probably silly reason, built the LAMP stackscript on ubunto, set ssh password but cannot login via ssh. Is there default username still root, or is it differnt?
07:14-!-metaperl [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
07:14<marius>it's root
07:15<John>yer using that and the password is fine
07:15<marius>are you sure yo uare using the node password ?
07:15<marius>alternatively you could go use the reset root password option in the linode manager =)
07:16<John>yer, rebuilt the image just to make sure
07:17-!-metaperl [] has joined #linode
07:23<mwalling>John: which stackscript?
07:23*mwalling fels charitable and will read the source :)
07:23<Tiven>immm guys to who i talk about editing the openssh article ?
07:24<marius>Depends, editing what about it?
07:24<marius>Usualyl you just write a comment on the article
07:24<Ovron>There's also a dedicated email for the library, unless I dreamt it.
07:24<Tiven>its just that putty stable no longger supports the encryption of the key made by OpenSSH latest
07:25<Tiven>so only dev snapshot works
07:25<Ovron>Really? Sounds like this might force a new stable of putty, first time on 200 years. Don't fix what isn't broken, yes yes ;)
07:26<Ovron>in *
07:26<Tiven>yeah stable putty refused to import my key cause encryption wasnt supported
07:26<Ovron>I take it you mean puttygen?
07:26<Tiven>googled a bit and some were saying that openssh changed encryption on keys and that you need snapshot of putty
07:27<Tiven>yes puttygen
07:27<marius>mwalling: since you are so charitable, halp with my python :P
07:27<marius>stackoverflow isn't being much help today
07:28<Ovron>forums? helpful? ARE YOU INSANE?!
07:29<Ovron>Although... would they really just go about and change the key format, just like that?
07:30<Ovron>Any idea for a reasoning behind it?
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07:33<Tiven>i cannot login on the linode wiki :(
07:33<Tiven>although i made an account
07:33<Tiven>to change the article
07:33<mwalling>marius: ask a question
07:34<LK->Tiven: Can't you just click edit? :P
07:34<Tiven>will it work ?
07:34-!-bofrede [] has quit [Quit: bofrede]
07:34<mwalling>marius: too hard
07:34-!-axod [] has joined #linode
07:35<marius>mwalling: ye xD
07:35<axod>hi, how do I copy a disk image to another linode? I don't want to copy it so it's active, I just want to store it away for a rainy day
07:35<Ovron>Do you have ZIP support? :p
07:35<marius>I do
07:36<Ovron>Well, perhaps try tracking down where the check is done in the installer, and then where it is done at start-up
07:36<Ovron>See how it differs :p
07:37<Tiven>LK- no didnt work
07:37-!-mathew [] has joined #linode
07:37<Tiven>saving, asks for user again
07:37<axod>ah I found it...
07:37<LK->Tiven: Ah.
07:40<LK->Tiven: Works for me just use the username: user - password: wiki
07:40<mwalling>Tiven: did you read the damn prompt?
07:41<Tiven>lol no
07:41<Tiven>i just did ^_^
07:41<mwalling>no. no love.
07:41<Tiven>yes loev
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07:42<Tiven>edited! :D
07:42<Ovron>Have a cookie.
07:42<literal>marius: is that your question on stackoverflow?
07:42<marius>literal: yea =(
07:43<literal>marius: python 2.6 is in apt
07:43<marius>Not on stable
07:43<literal>yeah, but installing the 2.6 package from testing makes more sense than building it yourself :)
07:44<marius>but it's built fine
07:44-!-axod [] has quit [Quit: ajax IRC Client]
07:44<Ovron>or is it
07:44<marius>the problem is with PIL I -think-
07:44<Ovron>*queueu horror music*
07:44<marius>well, python it self works
07:44<linbot>New news from wiki: OpenSSH Tutorial <>
07:45<literal>obviously some packaging problem which Debian would take care of for you if you'd just install their python 2.6 package ;)
07:45-!-tiny [] has joined #linode
07:45<Ovron>apt would be like *kapaow* *HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAI* *poof* and it would work.
07:47-!-LK- [~lk@] has quit [Quit: LK-]
07:49<Ovron>Sorry, just teasing a bit.
07:49<Ovron>Did you know that pil is arrow in swedish? Oh yeah, you probably did.
07:49<linbot>New news from wiki: OpenSSH Tutorial <>
07:50<marius>In norwegian too ;)
07:50-!-maku`off is now known as maku
07:50<Ovron>I really like PILlows
07:51<marius>I'd like a PILl for my headache
07:51<marius>You know you should work out more when you get exhausted form stratching in the morning xD
07:52<Ovron>wo-rk o-ut, not sure what you mean.
07:52<marius>It's this mythical thing I read about o nwikipedia
07:53<Ovron>{{Citation needed}}
07:53<marius>aparently the humans of old did this 'work out' when they were bored and to impress the other gender. Often to no avail as they turned into what is commonly known as 'douchefags'
07:53<Friction[2]>omg a dragon's denn dragon tried buying a pakistani baby
07:53<Ovron>Really. What a riveting tale.
07:54<marius>Mine was better.
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08:18<Friction[2]>a dog who's head is a body with a dog's head?
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08:29<DavidWhite>Aside from restoring from snapshot (which I have, thankfully.... the latest one was taken yesterday afternoon), any suggestions on how to recover from (very stupidly) running "rm -rf /etc/" on a Linode running CentOS?
08:30<Ovron>Yeah. Start over.
08:30<DavidWhite>I guess not, as I've modified a lot of stuff in there
08:30<DavidWhite>alright, restoring now
08:31-!-Nova [~Nova@] has joined #linode
08:31<Nova>Anyone know the best linode DC for mixed West Coast USA and Europe traffic?
08:31<Ovron>that'd be the one located as far east as possible
08:32<DavidWhite>hmm..... "not enough free space".... does this mean I have to go in and first delete everything (i.e. the current "configuration profile")?
08:32<DavidWhite>... and disk images
08:32<Nova>Ovron: Well London is further east then New Jersey
08:33<Ovron>in north america then.
08:33<taka>When I run a script from the shell it returns the correct PID for a new background process using $!, however when the script is run by another process, $! returns the correct PID + 1 - Why + 1 Any ideas?
08:33<John>Trying to add new domain to my node, domain is pointing to correct ip, added the virtualhost file into "/etc/apache2/sites-available/", made relevant directories and a2ensite command and reloaded apache
08:33<John>the domain just times out though
08:33<John>any suggestions?
08:34<Ovron>taka, perhaps that is the PID of the sh instance returning? if you're invoking it in a difference instance, no idea otherwise.
08:36<DavidWhite>so.... 1) shut down linode 2) delete disk images 3) restore?
08:36<Ovron>John: have you given it time to propagate? Is it really resolving?
08:37<John>It is pointing to the correct IP, I can only assume it's finished
08:38<John> is the node
08:38-!-GLaDOSDan|Away is now known as GLaDOSDan
08:39<linbot> <-- paste here, not in the channel
08:39<Ovron>put your vhost config there
08:39<DephNet[Paul]>Nova, I would go with London first, and if your users in America find it slow, you can migrate to Newark at the click of a link
08:39*DavidWhite will take that as a yes
08:39<DephNet[Paul]>DavidWhite, what are you trying to do?
08:40<Ovron>DavidWhite: I don't know, which is why I don't answer :p
08:40<DavidWhite>I need to restore, as quickly as possible, from a snapshot I took yesterday
08:40<Ovron>Might want to have it confirmed first
08:40<DephNet[Paul]>if you want to get back to a default install, then yes, you need to shutdown, delete the disks then redeploy
08:40<DavidWhite>not redeploy.... restore from snapshot. But seems that's still the same method
08:41<DephNet[Paul]>DavidWhite, not sure, never had to restore from a snapshot
08:41<DavidWhite>then we'll find out!
08:41<DavidWhite>I've already tried deleting the disks, as I couldn't "restore from snapsho" b/c there was no free space
08:42<John>Ovron >
08:42<Ovron>now have a look at: apache2ctl -S
08:43<Ovron>and the main error log, which probably is /var/log/apache2/error.log
08:43*Ovron makes aliases for these messages
08:44<John>nothing obvious in the error log
08:44<DavidWhite>yup, that's the process
08:44<DavidWhite>and it's almost done!
08:45<DavidWhite>well.... maybe
08:45<Nova>DephNet: Doesn't the London DC have a weak sauce network compared to say Newark? When it comes to peering?
08:45<Ovron>John: how about apache2ctl -S? pastebin the output if you don't know what to make out of it.
08:45<@caker>Nova: no? They're all freaking awesome.
08:45<Ovron>europe - weak peering - does not compute.
08:47<Ovron>if I go to the domain, I get a "test" page
08:48<marius>europe - freakign awesome peering \o/
08:48<Ovron>is that what you expect?
08:48<Nova>caker: I just have heard Newark (NAC) is a better DC for mixed traffic versus London (Telecity)
08:48<John>test is what's on the server, but I can only get to that using the, not
08:48<@caker>define mixed traffic.
08:49<Ovron>John: I just got that, using the latter domain.
08:49<Ovron>Did you try clearing your browser's cache etc?
08:49<marius>I get the test page too
08:49<John>on leitch-designs?
08:49<John>in that case I'm sorry for wasting your time
08:50<John>I am VNCing to another 2 computers so was assuming something was wrong
08:50<Nova>caker: Majority US West Coast and some UK Traffic
08:50<Ovron>John: That is fine. That'll be 200USD, tyvm.
08:50<@caker>Nova: Newark would be the best choice - somewhere in between. But ONLY because of the location within the world, not because of the peering
08:50<John>Monopoly notes
08:50<Ovron>I take those too.
08:50<Ovron>Only real ones though.
08:51-!-Ubuntuisloved4 [] has joined #linode
08:51<John>No probs
08:51<@caker>Nova: honestly, even dallas would probably be OK. London->Dallas latency is still only about 110ms
08:51<tonyyarusso>caker: FYI, you should open a new datacentre in Thunder Bay, Ontario, Canada in summer or fall of 2011, and hire me to run it. :)
08:51<Ovron>caker: all these issues will be gone when you launch the moon location.
08:51<DavidWhite>ugh. the restore is taking quite a while (which, isn't surprising, as it's about 12 or 13GB of data
08:51<@caker>Ovron: SpaceNodes!
08:51<Ovron>caker: hell yeah!
08:52<@caker>gdi .. it's a registered domain
08:52<mwalling>SpaceTubes! connected to SpaceNodes!
08:53<tonyyarusso>Gives new meaning to playing moon-buggy on my Linode.
08:53<@caker>Nova: I think I'd go with Dallas for "Majority US West Coast and some UK Traffic"
08:53<Nova>The issue at hand is London takes about 13 seconds for my site to load and I have tested the same site on a US VPS and it drops to about 4 second load time
08:53<DavidWhite>Nova: Where are you located?
08:53<GLaDOSDan>4 seconds? :o
08:53<@caker>Nova: same Linode?
08:53<DavidWhite>Is it b/c of network latencies?
08:53<tonyyarusso>Nah, it's the line at Customs.
08:53<DavidWhite>and yes.... 4 seconds is still an interesting number
08:54<Nova>caker: Yeah... same linode size
08:54<@caker>it may be a shitty ISP in between, or he's got two Linodes and one is performing poorly
08:54<Ovron>federales keeping them gringos out
08:54<Ovron>mtr to both and see if you get any issue on the paths?
08:54<@caker>Nova: so test locally from each Linode itself - see what the page rendering/load times are with NO network involved.
08:54<DephNet[Paul]>caker, "shitty ISP" in the UK, got to be BT
08:54<Nova>well I also am consider using AWS for a CDN to to speed up load times globally....
08:55<Ovron>BT is not an ISP they are a Internet Not-Service Provider. BT apparently tries their hardest to not offer you internet access ;p
08:55<Nova>Since AWS is now offering Free Pricing :D
08:55<tonyyarusso>"Free Pricing"? wth is that?
08:55<Ovron>You pay. But free. But you pay. For free. With a fee.
08:56<DephNet[Paul]>Ovron, i can confirm they do try their hardest not to give you access, and they rape you with charges too
08:56<GLaDOSDan>I hate BT with a passion. My line died a few months back (around mid-July), phoned up the Indian callcenter, and he said the earliest he could send an engineer out was September...
08:57<Nova>Free --->
08:57<Ovron>Linode so should get some hosts up in telecity in stockholm/sweden - the VPS market here is pretty narrow, with only 1-2 companies being worthy choices. *hint hint*
08:57-!-maku is now known as maku`off
08:57<DavidWhite>as painful as that downtime was, I'll have to give Linode credit: Their snapshots and restore process is quick, simple, and it works.
08:57<DavidWhite>my sites are back up
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08:57<tonyyarusso>Nova: oh, it's only for a trial period :(
08:58<Nova>for a year
08:58<Ovron>Now, try not rm'ing your /etc again DavidWhite ;)
08:58<Nova>A year of free service is better then paying :D
08:58<DephNet[Paul]>GLaDOSDan, I signed up for a BT phone line in Mal last year, and the 12 month contract they do not inform you of until you have signed on the dotted line, I moved in September last year and they said fine, I asked if this would impact on my contract, they said no
08:58<DavidWhite>FTR, I was trying to remove etc/ and not /etc/.
08:59<GLaDOSDan>They also wanted £300 to replace the master socket in my house
08:59<Nova>I also am considering serving up another Linode and clustering and then adding AWS to compliment...... If I did that I thank my site would load something amazingly fast
09:00<DephNet[Paul]>GLaDOSDan, fast forward to June this year, I went to move my line from BT to a small outfit called Xilo, phoned BT and they said "you cant,t your contract finishes in September, so you have to keep us till then, or pay us a termination charge of 110% of your June, July, Aug and Sept bills"
09:00<GLaDOSDan>Ah I know Xilo
09:00<GLaDOSDan>I had web hosting there for a while
09:01<GLaDOSDan>IIRC You can get the termination charge for free if you complain to them that your connection is slower than what you pay for
09:01<DephNet[Paul]>good company, I have my internet through them, and a VPS from them too
09:01<GLaDOSDan>I moved away from their web hosting though, just got my domains there now
09:01<GLaDOSDan>Traitor :P
09:01<DephNet[Paul]>GLaDOSDan, that does not work, they offer "upto" 8Meg, and so you are getting what you pay for
09:02<GLaDOSDan>That's what I heard, anyway
09:02<DephNet[Paul]>GLaDOSDan, i still have VPSes from Linode, I prefer Linodes VPSes ;)
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09:03<DavidWhite>alright, time to go to work.... 30 minutes later than I had planned
09:03<DavidWhite>thanks for the help, guys. Glad I could be a test bed for the Linode snapshot & restore process. :)
09:04<tonyyarusso>I should try AWS just to see what it's like sometime.
09:04<DephNet[Paul]>GLaDOSDan, I told BT that as I did not sign a new contract in September, or atleast agree to an extension, my old contract is still in force, ergo I have no termination charge and if they believe I do then I will see them in court
09:05<Nova>Anyone know what Peak Internet use times are globally?
09:05<GLaDOSDan>like 5pm->11pm?
09:05<Nova>I am wondering what specific time of day has the most people online....
09:05<Yaakov>Nova: from 00:00 to 23:59 UTC
09:05-!-DavidWhite [] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
09:05<Ovron>23:59-00:00 UTC is party time
09:05<Nova>GLaD: I mean one specific time that is peak considering all countries
09:05<DephNet[Paul]>GLaDOSDan, since June, I have heard nothing from BT
09:06<Yaakov>Nova: Of course not.
09:06<Ovron>ask someone at the large global carriers, if they feel chatty ;p
09:06<tonyyarusso>Nova: I would guess roughly when Europe is in evening and the Americas are in the business day.
09:06<Yaakov>Nova: There will be a wavy line at an average. Each time zone is an hour off from the next over twelve hours
09:07<Yaakov>Don't forget that China is highly connected now, as well as India.
09:07<Ovron>I don't really think that is the case, I expect there to be groupings formed
09:08<tonyyarusso>Yaakov: yeah, but China doesn't have much traffic that hits stuff outside of China still, so to a non-China observer there's less influence on traffic than you'd think.
09:08<Ovron>Are we talking just user count, or data transfer? Some countries/regions are a bit heavier on the latter bit.
09:09<Nova>Ovron: User count
09:09<Yaakov>No, wrong link, sorry...
09:11<Yaakov>Here: This is from Cisco:
09:11<Yaakov>n an average day over the reported quarter, Internet "prime time" spans from approximately 9 p.m to 1 a.m. around the world. This contrasts with broadcast TV prime time, which is generally from 7 p.m. to 11 p.m. across most global markets.
09:11<Yaakov>There is an Internet "day and night".
09:12<Yaakov>So in each market, it is 9 to 1.
09:12<Yaakov>Follow that around the globe.
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09:24<amitz>hmm IIRC on the network data of my previous ISP, the prime time here is shifted a bit earlier.
09:25<amitz>but it is probably a good rule of thumb.
09:29<tonyyarusso>well, staff will be happy to know that AWS appears to be substantially more expensive than my Linode to do the same thing :)
09:30<tonyyarusso>cheaper for storage space though
09:32<swaj>for just a basic Linux VPS, AWS is very expensive.
09:32<tonyyarusso>$75/mo or so.
09:32-!-libertiy [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
09:32<tonyyarusso>either you have to pay for more computing power than you need, or you have to pay through the nose for IOPS.
09:32<JshWright>_slow_ IOPS
09:33<swaj>many Linode customers I've seen hanging out in this channel use Linode for the VPS itself, and then offload backups and bulk data to S3
09:33<JshWright>^^ that's what I do
09:33<tonyyarusso>For instance, running torrents for a month would run you $1300 for disk IO :\
09:33<tonyyarusso>swaj: Yeah, I might do something like that.
09:34<swaj>for now, I use the Linode backup service
09:34<tonyyarusso>The 'micro' computing node only runs $15/mo, but it doesn't include any local storage, so you have to attach an EBS disk to it, and those are the crazy expensive part.
09:34<swaj>but I've been thinking about moving it offsite
09:34<dcraig>hey isn't it weird that an online bookstore is all into cloud computing and storage and stuff?
09:35<tonyyarusso>even just the stuff I have running on my Linode right now would run $65/mo for IO alone.
09:35<Ovron>amazon is a bit more than an online bookstore...
09:35<dcraig>I know...
09:35<mwalling>dcraig: amazon was so much more then books before they started the AWS business
09:35<dcraig>it's just interesting how they've morphed over time
09:35-!-libertiy [] has joined #linode
09:35<tonyyarusso>S3 seems reasonably priced though.
09:35<Ovron>at least they dare getting into new market segments
09:36<mwalling>to me, AWS seems faceless.
09:36<mwalling>linodes awesome
09:36<tonyyarusso>I just wish the utilities for accessing S3 from Linux were more mature.
09:36<mwalling>tonyyarusso: you mean curl?
09:36<mwalling>or boto?
09:36<tonyyarusso>mwalling: I mean mounting it as a filesystem.
09:36<mwalling>s3 isnt meant to be a file system
09:36<Ovron>S3 has properties which make it bad for mounting
09:36<swaj>s3fs is pretty decent, from what I've heard
09:37<swaj>and there are tons of API's out there for interfacing with S3 anyway
09:37<swaj>I mean libraries, not API's
09:37<swaj>google storage is an option, too.
09:38-!-ktabic_ [] has joined #linode
09:38<swaj>I have an account right now... really been thinking about using it for home backups
09:38-!-Friction [~lol@] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
09:38<tonyyarusso>What I really want is just much cheaper storage addons from Linode :P
09:38<swaj>hehe, good luck :P
09:39<Ovron> -> next big thing? ;)
09:39-!-GLaDOSDan is now known as GLaDOSDan|Away
09:39<mwalling>^^ someone plays too much portal
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09:40<swaj> <-- nice python library for google storage :P
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09:40<metaperl>Hmm, I must not be human. I cant answer this CAPTCHA -
09:40<Ovron>Linode is really Aparture Laboratories? dayum
09:40<metaperl>I always knew I was a martian
09:40<tonyyarusso>Ovron: Yes, my Thunder Bay datacentre!
09:41<tonyyarusso>metaperl: lol
09:41<mwalling>metaperl: holy shit
09:41*dcraig slaps mikegrb around a bit with a large oil-covered cuskfish
09:41<tonyyarusso>I see a 9 at least.
09:41<Ovron>haha that captcha...
09:41<marius>you are welcome
09:41<swaj>on my screen it looks like 0WBKQ
09:41<swaj>9WBKQ I mean
09:42-!-gilaniali [] has joined #linode
09:42<tonyyarusso>I see 9WBKO
09:42<Ovron>is the last not a zero?
09:42<tonyyarusso>mabye 0?
09:42<swaj>it's a Q
09:42<marius>it has the dot thing in the right lower corner
09:42<marius>thus a Q
09:42<straterra>Ovron: This was a triumph...I'm making a note here. Huge success!
09:42<metaperl>hah! a bunch of non-humans... all of you :)
09:43-!-John [] has quit [Quit: John]
09:43<Ovron>straterra: have you an problem's? (:
09:43<straterra>A what?
09:43<dcraig>I click on the text box to enter the code, but nothing happens :(
09:43<Ovron>an problem's:
09:44<straterra>Is the captcha
09:44<dcraig>that's so not a Q
09:44<straterra>Yes it is
09:44-!-DesertPanther_ [~Khalid@] has joined #linode
09:44<dcraig>hi descender
09:44<Ovron>tonyyarusso: no, an problem's, please check attached link ;p
09:44<dcraig>and DesertPanther
09:44-!-GLaDOSDan|Away is now known as GLaDOSDan
09:44<dcraig>hi GLaDOSDan
09:45<tonyyarusso>Ovron: yeah, just did, discovered delete key doesn't retract posted lines.
09:45<straterra>That was a joke, haha...fat chance
09:45<mwalling>GLaDOSDan: you know you dont have to tell everyone you're away.... we can just use /whois to find out
09:45<tonyyarusso>Oooooh, I've used 197 GB of network transfer and it's only the 22nd. Do I find out what happens when you go over? :P
09:45<straterra>GLaDOSDan: Are you doing science and are still alive?
09:46<GLaDOSDan>mwalling: I have it like that on every other network :P, I'll disable it here though, don't see why I'd need it here.
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09:46<GLaDOSDan>straterra: Mhm
09:46<tonyyarusso>GLaDOSDan: every other network? Freenode dislikes that too.
09:46<@irgeek>tonyyarusso: You get billed for the overage.
09:46<GLaDOSDan>I'm not on freenode
09:47<straterra>tonyyarusso: literally out the ass
09:47<straterra>They send me to inforce it
09:47<Ovron>And you like taking it out the ass? Sounds a bit odd to me.
09:47<tonyyarusso>irgeek: ah, simple enough.
09:48<tonyyarusso>I can't figure it out, most of the time I hardly use my bandwidth, but every April and October it's through the roof ;)
09:49<straterra>We need a roll over plan!
09:49<straterra>Oktoberfest is in September :/
09:49<tonyyarusso>straterra: +1
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09:53<straterra>I just found a new ringtone
09:53<tonyyarusso>Avg. network traffic in kbps: June: 7/3, July: 9/2, August: 8/3, September: 14/9, October: 567/81 :P
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10:01<Nova>Most of my linodes never use 10% of their bandwidth quota
10:01<Nova>kinda sucks for me
10:01*caker removes 90% of Nova's quota
10:01*Nova slaps Caker
10:02<Nova>hey caker.... you should make a option where a person can lease an entire host box
10:02<marius>That's easy
10:02<@caker>there are no hosts.
10:02<marius>just get the biggest node.
10:02<@caker>C L O U D
10:02<Nova>marious.... that would not be very cost effective you would be paying atleast five times to cost of a dedicated with similiar specs and bandwidth
10:03<marius>Then you'd get a dedi ;P
10:04<Nova>Linode 20GB for that price I could get atleast two dedicated servers with same hardware specs and a unmetered line
10:05<@caker>same hardware specs doubt, but whatever
10:05<@irgeek>Nova: You'd also have to manage it and hardware failures would leave you dead in the water.
10:06<Ovron>You're probably looking at coloc instead, and that means... damnit. The above ^
10:06<JshWright>things like LISH are also not free in the dedi world
10:06<Nova>irgeek: If a harddrive failed on a linode box I would be dead in the water.....
10:06<Ovron>a serial console costs an arm, or a first born
10:06<@caker>Nova: no.
10:07<JshWright>Nova: you would?
10:07<Nova>caker: How would you recover my data?
10:07<@caker>Nova: no recovery required. RAID
10:07<marius>raid mirrors
10:07<JshWright>Nova: you'd need two drive failures to be dead in the water
10:07<marius>it's like magic :o
10:07<Nova>I thought you guys used SCSI
10:07<Ovron>You expected them to use normal consumer grade harddrives with no raid?
10:08<Nova>for the prices they offer? yeah kinda
10:08<JshWright>Nova: do you walk to school, or bring a bagged lunch?
10:09<Nova>I take the bang bus
10:10<JshWright>I'm still perplexed at how using SCSI disks would prevent them from using RAID arrays...
10:10<Ovron>JshWright: didn't get the memo? can only RAID over ATA-133.
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10:14<HoopyCat>redundant array of inexpensive DAT
10:15<Ovron>Are you ready with the mini tapes?!
10:16<Ovron>While on the subject of tapes... anyone used LTO5's LTFS yet?
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10:25<randallman>Do dat, Do dat, DO do dat dat dat c'mon
10:25<randallman>Ovron, LTO5?
10:25<randallman>We're still rockin' LTO3s :P
10:25<randallman>LTFS sounds interesting :0
10:25<Ovron>LTFS interests me, I wonder if it is any good.
10:25<randallman>like Tier 5 storage
10:25<randallman>Tier 1 vendors are already talking about 'data at rest'
10:26<randallman>as a 4th tier
10:26<randallman>like large multi-TB disks that will be powered off unless data is required
10:27<@irgeek>DLT 4 lyfe!
10:27<randallman>DDS3 4 life!
10:27<randallman>Nothing like fitting 16GB on a single tape...
10:27<randallman>no I mean 12 :)
10:27<@jed>you down with DLT, yeah you know me
10:28<randallman>Hmm DAT320
10:28<randallman>160GB DAT tape
10:29<randallman>AIT gone :)
10:29<randallman>ooh Travan
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10:57<bob_>Hi, your site doesnt say, but I read somewhere (old post) that you guys use RAID1, not 10.. is that still true? or are you runnign RAID10 in all your servers?
10:57-!-bob_ is now known as progrock
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10:59<swaj>yay, mono 2.8 installed. Time to tinker
10:59<linbot>New news from forums: MindTouch Deki on nginx ? in Web Servers and Web App Development <>
11:00<progrock>anyone know... it may be the deciding factor for me to go with linode or slicehost
11:02<randallman>Does it matter? The proof is in the pudding... Test disk IO on linode vs. slicehost
11:02<randallman>For example: Raid 1 across 15k disks is going to be faster in many cases than raid 1+0 across 10k disks
11:02<progrock>WEll I would nee dto sign up for both to test
11:03<@tasaro>luckily there is a 7 day, 100% money back guarantee at Linode
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11:03<randallman>932184064 bytes (932 MB) copied, 13.6564 s, 68.3 MB/s
11:03<randallman>That's on my linode
11:04<randallman>writing from /dev/zero onto a disk
11:04<progrock>thats nice to hear... but sadly this does lead me to believe its RAID1... again, your not wrong by saying performance is what matters.. but obviously the raid10 technoology has its benefites
11:04<randallman>progrock, I am not a linode employee and I do not know their architecture
11:04<randallman>I was merely stating a point
11:04<@caker>everything is raid-10 now.
11:04<randallman>Please do not assume that my response indicates a raid level
11:04<@caker>or better.
11:05<Ovron>raid-100! no wait
11:05<randallman>'But this one goes to 11'
11:05<progrock>caker: are you an employee as well?
11:05<linbot>Users with ops are employees of Linode, and know what they're talking about. The rest of us are the ever-so-helpful(?) community. Official Linode contact information:
11:05<@caker>progrock: I'm Linode's founder
11:05<randallman>caker is not only the president of the hair club for men, he's also a member
11:05<progrock>oh, alright then
11:06<progrock>The funn thing is, I was talking to a rackspace employee about slivehost vs linode... he was very kidn to you guys, and really didn;t have anything to say other than you guys have the better price point right now
11:06*Kos uses rackspace & linode at the moment
11:07*Ovron uses Linode & urmom
11:07<randallman>All of the B$ aside, getting 70MB/sec write speed on a virtual server aint shabby at all
11:07*karstensrage is going to try and be 100% linode by the end of this weekend
11:07*Kos was kicked out of urmom for abuse of service
11:07<progrock>well, think I might have to sign up for an account in the jersey data center
11:07<randallman>urmom got a DMCA takedown notice for you? :P
11:07<Ovron>randallman: 1&1 guarantee 1MBps. 1. One. So yeah.
11:08<dominikh>ddf -h
11:08<dominikh>typoed AND wrong window
11:08<progrock>oh quick, whast your cancelation poilicy?.. do I ened like a crazy 30 day heads up.. are there any late fees if I pay a few days later, etc?
11:08<pharaun>urmom would've been proud
11:08<randallman>Ovron, 1&1 guarantee 1 megabyte/sec?
11:08<Kos>Ovron: network speed or disk write speed
11:08<hawk>progrock: Personally, I think that makes a better imperssion of them than if they tried to spin things heavily somehow.
11:08<Ovron>Their storage is across network, and that's what they guarantee - transport of data at 1MBps.
11:08-!-Boohemian [~Boohemian@] has joined #linode
11:09<Ovron>You can buy higher speeds, think they have 3 and 10MBps guaranteed levels.
11:09-!-gilaniali [] has joined #linode
11:09<randallman>they who?
11:09-!-karstensrage [] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
11:09<randallman>that's the name of the company
11:09<Ovron>1and1, yes
11:09<randallman>70MBytes/sec is approaching the theoretical max of a NFS volume on gig E
11:09<randallman>or iSCSI
11:09<randallman>But I believe linode is local
11:09<Ovron>They are one of the largest hosts in europe.
11:09<pharaun>yeah i think so too
11:10<pharaun>i seem to recall hearing that
11:10<Ovron>Sorry, I just did a horrible thing, not 1and1 (those suck for their own reasons); I meant OVH.
11:10<progrock>So do you guys have a hassle free, late fee free, service? (ie. can cancel without an extended heads up, and worst case scenario my account is disable, as opposed to late fee)
11:10<randallman>I've been late and never had a late fee
11:11<randallman>I did get my account 'suspended' that month after 20 days late
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11:11<progrock>On of the reasons I'll never leave rapidxen is their policy of no extra fees (and their low end offering at ana amzing price)
11:11<randallman>Which was an appropriate response IMHO
11:11<progrock>haha, yeah, 7 day grace period is as much as I could expect
11:11<Ovron>The information is available on the website, black on white. :)
11:11<progrock>but I want a server closer to me than chicago, so looks like you guys will at least have my business for a month
11:12<progrock>Ovron: well I didnt feel liek digging when one of their employees could say "yes, no late fees / cancellation grace period required".... would make me feel better
11:12<Ovron> - 4th point, covers your question.
11:12<progrock>thank you sir
11:12<Ovron>Yeah, of course - just in case, it is there. :)
11:13<progrock>so.. thast bad news tho.. if I dont pay, instead of just cancelling.. I am subject to have credit services attack me
11:13<progrock>not good
11:18<randallman>wait what?
11:18<randallman>Just cancel :)
11:18<randallman>if you want to cancel
11:18<pharaun>that's how most service operates imho
11:18<pharaun>they go after you with credit attacks ;-p
11:19<chesty>they aren't going to bother for part of $20
11:19<progrock>well thats why I was comparing to rapidxen.. since I love the idea that I could jsut forget abotu their service, and never have to worry about any fees period.. only what I have already paid them
11:19<Ovron>Vladimir and Igor Collection Agency, at your service.
11:19<randallman>I would assume that if you let your card go invalid (e.g. expiration date, close the account, etc...), then you'd be liable for the 7 to 10 days between the date of billing fail and the date of service suspension... But is that really of any appreciable value to anyone?
11:19<randallman>perhaps if you had 20 linodes :)
11:20<randallman>but if you had 20, a pre-paid year by year makes more sense :)
11:20<@jed>we skip credit reports and go straight to louisville sluggers
11:20<randallman>and tsarao from here has worked with me and my company on Purchase Order based ordering for several linodes
11:20<progrock>well, I'm not saying the money is a big deal.. jsut say I got preoccupied (liek left the country for over a month) and didnt haev it as one of my primary concerns.. wouldnt want to have any problems because I owed some company a few dollars because I forgot to cancel
11:21<Kos>amazon is giving away free cloud time
11:21<Kos>how will linode respond?
11:21<Ovron>Paying your bills should be your primary concern.
11:21<Kos>free services too? ;)
11:21-!-DrJ [] has joined #linode
11:22<progrock>Ovron: is a convenience factor.. I love knowing that what I paid for is the msot I could ever be charged (ie. no bandwidth overages, etc)... both radpidxen (and i know not vps, but same concept, nearlyfreespeech) offer this.. and itsa nice feelingto nto have to worry
11:23<progrock>anyway, still thnk you guys convinced me for at leasta month. Just throwing it out there, I really love the policy of any hosting company that is a 'what ou have already paid us is all you are ever liable for"
11:24<dominikh>speaking of money, will Linode work with prepaid credit cards?
11:25<@jed>dominikh: major card logo on it?
11:25<@jed>have a bunch of numbers and an expiration date?
11:25<dominikh>jed: it's a MasterCard, buncha numbers, expiration date. it's just prepaid ;)
11:25<@jed>when you run those as credit it pretends to be a credit card
11:25<@jed>it'll work fine
11:26<pharaun>jed: accept american express? I was thinking of getting one
11:26<@jed>I believe so, let me check the FAQ
11:26<Ovron>Amex black?
11:26<DrJ>I'm thinking about linode ... one thing that concerns me is I don't see a tech support link on the website anywhere
11:26<@jed>We accept Visa, MasterCard, American Express, and Discover.
11:26<pharaun>jed: sweet :)
11:26<@jed>those logos on the card, it *should* work (there are edge cases)
11:26<DrJ>What forms of support does linode have
11:26<pharaun>jed: that works for me :)
11:27<@caker>DrJ: 24/7/365 via our support ticket system (primary), and phone (secondary)
11:27<@caker>DrJ: <-- see #6
11:27<pharaun>oh how recent is the stats on the /about page?
11:27<@caker>a few months or so
11:27<DrJ>how much is extra disk space
11:28<pharaun>ah nice, lol 3.1% gentoo installation?
11:28<linbot>Available Add-ons: Disk: $ 2 per 1GB/month. RAM: $ 5 per 90MB/month. Transfer: $ 10 per 100GB/month. IP: $ 1 per IP/month. To add extras:
11:28<@caker>DrJ: more cost effective to just upgrade the plan
11:29<DrJ>and how fast are the connection speeds ...
11:29<DrJ>I normally test by wgetting
11:30<DrJ>that doesn't tell me much caker
11:30<DrJ>since the downloading of files there max's out at my speed
11:30<@caker>what do you what to know?
11:31<Kos>pharaun: that's actually more than I thought there would be :p
11:31<@caker>from which facility?
11:31*Kos is proud to be part of that 3.1%
11:31<Xenc>< Ubuntu
11:32<pharaun>Kos: haha :-p I got Gentoo desktop & Server at home, but my linode is debian
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11:32<@caker>DrJ: 23.45M/s (that's megaBYTES/sec)
11:32<Kos>pharaun: good man
11:32<DrJ>btw, I see atlanta filters IRC ... I'm assuming that is only for servers ... BNC (psybnc/miau) would work fine?
11:32<Kos>I had to take gentoo off my laptop, though
11:32<Xenc>you can change the port number
11:32<pharaun>Kos: yeah i got fedora on it now cos its just too slow
11:32<DrJ>wow, nearly 200Mbps
11:32<Xenc>its not against the tos, just filtered
11:32<Kos>sad day when I overwrote it with ubuntu
11:33<DrJ>Xenc, yes, but would I need to change anything for a client on the server connecting to a server
11:33<DrJ>obviously I can't dictate the server ports
11:33<pharaun>Kos: worklaptop = ubuntu, personal laptop = fedora, server 1 = openbsd, router = openbsd, server2 = gentoo + openvz, desktop = gentoo, linode = debian
11:33<Xenc>i have.. no idea
11:34<pharaun>they wanted to make me use RHEL 5.4 as the desktop at work for my laptop, and I was like hahaha really? no
11:35<Kos>I have to use os x at work =[
11:36<pharaun>heh, i thought osx wasn't too bad... for most part
11:36<Kos>I actually get away with a full screend VM if I wanted to, though
11:36<Kos>going from 100% linux [gentoo] to OS X is... difficult
11:36<pharaun>Ah... true :)
11:36<pharaun>I'm just so used to going...
11:36<pharaun>apt-get or emerge -v blah
11:37<pharaun>that if its not in there, it does not exist ;)
11:37<Kos>direct from my linode gives me funny results
11:37<Kos>pharaun: if it doesn't exist, I build it from source ;p
11:38<pharaun>Kos: indeed, I was kidding about that :) its just so nice to have it already there in portage
11:38<Tiven>Kos that's not funny result
11:38<Tiven>it's real
11:38<Kos>I know
11:38<Kos>When I say funny
11:38<Kos>I mean, wtf500mbps
11:38<pharaun>and thankfully.... most C/etc projects aren't too bad, i can just create a new ebuild, setup a few thing, stuff it in and off you go
11:39<pharaun>Kos: ruby/python/perl/etc SUCK ASS
11:39-!-dajhorn [] has joined #linode
11:39<Kos>pharaun: I've fortunately never had any issues building them
11:39<pharaun>perl isn't too bad they made the g-cpan which automated the cpan->ebuild generation its nice
11:39<Kos>modules for perl though... *shiver*
11:39<pharaun>python/ruby, i do a ton of work with them
11:39<Kos>yeah portage packages cpan modules are ftw
11:39<Ovron>Yeah! OBJECTIVE-C RULES! No wait, that's wrong. Damn you and your turtlenecks, steve jobs, damn you!
11:39<pharaun>i mainly program in ruby, but there's a ton of app that uses python
11:39<Kos>rebuilding them because you forgot to add the threaded flag is annoying, though
11:40<MaZ->python owns you take that back!
11:40<pharaun>and i hate all of the goddamn alternative package manager
11:40<pharaun>that loves to fuck up your system
11:40<avenj>I only program in qbasic
11:40<pharaun>i mean what? you didn't give me the choice in where to install the damn files?
11:40<pharaun>fuck you
11:40<@pparadis>avenj: QB454lyfe
11:40<Kos>I made the wise decision to install aptitude/dpkg on my gentoo install (trying to force adobe air to work)
11:40<avenj>don't hold back now, tell us what you really think
11:40<Ovron>php-cli, represent!
11:40<Kos>and it really shouldn't be an issue... but yeah that's hardly the case
11:40<pharaun>MaZ-: heh i don't mind python, its the python package + ruby package that sucks ass
11:41<pharaun>because often they have their own custom build/wrapper/automagical download/installer/etc
11:41<Kos>Ovron: haha yeah, I used that for a while
11:41<pharaun>fuck off, just give me a list of package and i can pack it into ebuilds and let portage manage it but noo
11:41<MaZ->i dunno, i kinda like managing python packages separately
11:41<pharaun>too hard to do, it must automagically generate/fuck up my system, gee thanks
11:41<MaZ->especially with virtual envs
11:41<avenj>I heard somewhere that gentoo users are ricers.
11:41<@pparadis>oh snap
11:41<pharaun>i like to have portage manage everything for me
11:41<pharaun>just much easier
11:42<Kos>speaking of which
11:42<Ovron>Did someone say ricer?
11:42<pharaun>avenj: my cflag - -O2 -march=native -mmmx -msse -msse2 -msse3 -mssse3 -msse4 -msse4.1 -msse4.2 -maes -pipe
11:42<Kos>mmm deep update
11:42<pharaun>Ovron: haha nice
11:43-!-desc|office [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
11:43<avenj><Status> CFLAGS="-mtune=pentium4 -O2 -pipe -mmmx -msse3 -frename-registers -feliminate-unused-debug-types -floop-optimize -maccumulate-outgoing-args" <kojiro> -massimilate-extraneous-flags -flog-cpu -flip-random-bits
11:43<Kos> * Last emerge --sync was 53d 22h 32m 54s ago.
11:43<Kos>I'm a terrible gentoo user =(
11:43<avenj>(#gentoo qdb)
11:43<pharaun>I usually run -O2 -march=core2 but recently updated to a new xeon, but issue is
11:43<Ovron>avenj that is wrong
11:43<Ovron>you forgot --urmom in there
11:43<pharaun>gcc wasn't figuring out my processor right so i had to force all of the sse flags :(
11:43<amitz>gentoo users are tree killers!
11:43<pharaun>avenj: good god
11:43<Kos>amitz: lol
11:44<pharaun>i like -O2 -march=native -pipe
11:44<pharaun>nice simple cflag
11:44<Ovron>wasting all the electricity, compiling everything themselves... think about the nature, brahs
11:44<pharaun>When i was younger, i used to have the --holyshiti'mgoingsofast flag
11:44<pharaun>and the --breakeverything flag
11:45<pharaun>and to make it even better
11:45<pharaun>this was on a 366 mhz dell laptop with 256mb of ram!
11:45<pharaun>can you say hello to weeks of compiling
11:45*Kos once went 6 months with ARCH="~x86_64"
11:46<pharaun>i run stable, + few ~x86_64 package, but i only allow in it via keyworded version
11:46<pharaun>aka =blah
11:46<Kos>boy oh boy when I hit libpng1.4.... it hit the fan
11:46<pharaun>oh yeah dude that wasn't too bad
11:46<pharaun>try the libexpat
11:46<pharaun>*THAT* was fun
11:47<Kos>libpng1.4 on a full ~x86_64 system? that was hard
11:47<pharaun>ah i didn't have much issue on mine
11:47<Ovron>apt-get install gentoo
11:47<Ovron>does that dumb down systems?
11:47<avenj>I've been using gentoo since 2001ish... but I also love me some debian. :o
11:47<pharaun>then again it was mostly stable, it was libexpat
11:47<pharaun>that blew chunk
11:47<progrock>do you guys have a cap on your I/O rate?
11:47<pharaun>recently, aka 6 months ago, i was angry at gentoo again
11:47<mwalling>progrock: no
11:48<pharaun>they let through a broken lvm+mdadm+udev
11:48<DrJ>I signed up for linode 512 ... suppose to have 200GB/month transfer but network summary is saying onliny 64GB
11:48<Ovron>pharaun: when you get *angry* at your operating system, something is wrong :p
11:48<pharaun>destroyed my desktop and i had to restore the os from backup
11:48<mwalling>DrJ: thats because today is the 22nd
11:48<Kos>DrJ: prorated
11:48<DrJ>ah, so next month it will go up
11:48<mwalling>DrJ: 22/31*200
11:48<pharaun>Ovron: yeah, issue is i run mdraid/etc on my desktop
11:48<pharaun>and they let through a broken update on that
11:48<avenj>got a bug number?
11:49<pharaun>avenj: that was 6 months ago
11:49<pharaun>avenj: the whole genkernel+initramfs+lvm+mdadm fisaco
11:49<avenj>ah yes.. genkernel
11:49<Kos>never been on raid
11:49<pharaun>where you had to update the lvm+mdadm to use the new udev, but incidently the new lvm moved shit around
11:49<mwalling>Kos: oh, right
11:49<pharaun>and then the initramfs lost things
11:49<pharaun>and thing would not boot up/etc
11:49*Kos <3s genkernel
11:49<amitz>Kos: (31-22)/31*200GB
11:49<progrock>what about the emails you guys send along the liens of "You linode, xxx, has exceeded the notification threshold (1000) for disk io rate by averaging 3003.34 for 2hrs
11:49<pharaun>avenj: i only used genkernel to make my initramfs, otherwise i handroll my kernel
11:50<avenj>progrock: 'notification'
11:50<pharaun>haven't had issue with the kernel it was the initramfs that was fubar
11:50<Kos>except when gencerkernel is like, "you don't need lvm, any crypto, ext3 and ext4, trust me, I know what's best"
11:50<mwalling>progrock: did you read the *WHOLE THING*?
11:50<pharaun>Kos: indeed
11:50<progrock>avenj: supposively that was sent rigth before shtutiong down the vps
11:50<pharaun>problem is the genkernel + lvm mismatched things up
11:50<pharaun>lvm moved to lvm.static
11:50<mwalling>progrock: also, noone who has spoken in the past 5 minutes sends those emails. we're the community
11:50<pharaun>and shit got fucked up
11:50<Kos>seriously spent 2 hours trying to figure out why I set the options in .config, but they weren't being compiled in...
11:50<pharaun>so it end up being 3 problem, a new udev layout, mdadm change, and broken lvm setup
11:51<pharaun>arugh, had to restore from backup, i was pissed
11:51<avenj>genkernel is a Bad Idea
11:51<Kos>should have just built initramfs by hand like ka normal person
11:51<pharaun>Kos: that's the problem
11:51<pharaun>i don't know how to roll the initramfs
11:51<Ovron>pharaun: just use windows, you'd have less issues ;)
11:51<pharaun>i roll my own kernel and everything else
11:51<Kos>pharaun: yeah, that's why I did genkernel, I didn't want to learn ayhting :(
11:51<pharaun>all i need the initramfs for is for the root *on* lvm
11:51<pharaun>that's the only reason why i need it, otherwise i would have tossed it out
11:52<pharaun>Ovron: don't tempt me to stab you
11:52<Ovron>pharaun: tehee
11:52<pharaun>i HATE windows with a passion
11:52<pharaun>i can use it, and i have to use it from time to time but the system/gui/etc
11:52<pharaun>just makes no sense to me, so inefficent, etc...
11:53<avenj>it works for what it's designed for
11:53<pharaun>I mean comeon, i'm working on creating a make file to autogenerate my panorama pictures
11:53<avenj>solitaire runs 100%
11:53<pharaun>and etc
11:53<Kos>pharaun: yeah, it's a little hard to use FDE without initramfs =(
11:53<pharaun>Kos: yeah, that's the only reason why i have it. I just need to figure out how to build a new initramfs with the whole new lvm stuff so I can finally upgrade
11:53<pharaun>my lvm/mdadm version are soon going to expire out of portage and when stuff does, it becomes a PITA to upgrade
11:54<pharaun>i just wish that the gentoo people had *warned* about that
11:54<pharaun>or provided a non-broken upgrade path
11:54<pharaun>instead of going lol here's a new lvm version, have fun as it breaks and corrupt everything on your damn system
11:55<bd_>pharaun: LVM1?
11:55<pharaun>bd_: lvm2
11:55<bd_>huh, is there a LVM3 now?
11:55<pharaun>bd_: issue is 6 months ago they botched a upgrade with lvm/genkernel/etc
11:55<pharaun>bd_: nah, no
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11:56<pharaun>there was a new udev, and lvm changed its build process
11:56<pharaun>and couple other, so it was a combo of like 3 issues hitting you at the same itme
11:56<bd_>and nobody bothered to think about upgrade paths?
11:56<pharaun>and fucking things up
11:56<pharaun>apparently not
11:56<pharaun>had to restore from backups, was *not* happy about it
11:56<bd_>maybe you should use a distro that _does_ think about (and test!) upgrade paths? ;)
11:57<pharaun>nah really it was the first time i've ran into *that* one
11:57<pharaun>i mean the libexpat, libpng, libjpg was bad
11:57<pharaun>but it did not fuck around with my filesystem and i knew what needed to be done to fix/etc
11:58<bd_>call me old-fashioned, but I like distros that deal with things like that for me :)
11:58<pharaun>bd_: yeah, i have fedora on my laptop, ubuntu at work
11:58<pharaun>openbsd on everything else, debian on the linode
11:58<pharaun>i just have gentoo on my desktop
11:58<bd_>fair enough then
11:58<pharaun>its my primary use box and i like a highly customized setup
11:58<pharaun>the ebuild/portage/useflag/etc makes it really easy to do that
11:59<pharaun>with a binary distro, you are stuck with what useflag they pick for the package unless you want to roll your own
11:59<pharaun>for 2000 of em
12:00<bd_>well, it's fine to have a box to play around with, I'd just never use it on a production system *shrug*
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12:00<pharaun>indeed, i don't really have a production sytem other than my work laptop or linode :)
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12:01<pharaun>i just went for gentoo on my desktop cuz of the whole ability to tweak everything to what i wanted
12:01<mwalling>wow. ok
12:01<JshWright>pharaun: yeah... but most binary distros Just Work (tm)
12:01<pharaun>JshWright: yes hence i have debian on my linode, ubuntu/fedora on the laptop. etc
12:01<pharaun>i do not mind doing a bit of work/etc/fixes
12:01<JshWright>pharaun: but what do you get out of it?
12:01<pharaun>but the lvm/mdadm/udev fisaco pissed me off cos it corrupted my disk data
12:02<pharaun>JshWright: its a old old setup and it would be a pain to switch, plus i like to run a very minimal setup
12:02<pharaun>remove audio, etc (deaf don't need that shit)
12:02<JshWright>you spend hours and hours fixing your system, to save a few seconds on the other end
12:02<pharaun>nah its not the performance, i don't care
12:02<pharaun>i have -O2 -march=native -pipe
12:02<pharaun>for my cflag
12:02<pharaun>i *like* portage, it makes it easy to tweak what kind of dependency i want
12:03<pharaun>IE do i want to install this app with 200 dependencies or just 10 or etc..
12:03<pharaun>i mean a complete system rebuild only takes 3 hour anyway
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12:04<dominikh>you only care about dependencies so much because you have to compile them ;)
12:04-!-Dave is now known as Guest264
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12:04<pharaun>dominikh: nah
12:04<DrJ>where do you set DNS
12:04<pharaun>it only takes the machine 3 hour to build the entire system 4 times
12:05<DrJ>I see linode removed my settings from /etc/resolve
12:05<pharaun>so building dependencies is not a issue
12:05<pharaun>i just HATE oh, i want to install X app, someone decided what "useflag" i need to have
12:05<pharaun>and if i want to use ruby, on this app and the guy decided i didn't need ruby
12:05<@tasaro>DrJ: DHCP?
12:05<pharaun>i would have to re-compile/reinstall it ANYWAY
12:06<bd_>DrJ: if you're not using DHCP, /etc/resolv.conf is under your control
12:06<bd_>If you just now disabled DHCP, well, DHCP undid the changes it made, so you should probably put them back
12:06<DrJ>is it dhcp by default
12:06<mwalling>DrJ: it makes your node "turnkey"
12:06<pharaun>for me the main thing i like about portage is i can pick exactly what i want on the system, i'm a bit of a control freak on that
12:07<@tasaro>DrJ: if you need it ->
12:07<mwalling>!library static networking
12:07<linbot>mwalling: 1. Linux Static IP Configuration ( - 2. Linode Networking Guides ( - 3. Social Networking with Elgg on Debian 5 (Lenny) (
12:07<dominikh>pharaun: I used to be like that, too (used Gentoo, too), but upgrades were too annoying. I had too many blocks etc (people say because I used stuff from testing, but heck, some of their masking policies suck)
12:08<pharaun>dominikh: yeah i run stable + versioned keywording for certain unstable package so that when they become stable the keyword "expires"
12:09<dominikh>I just remember some irrational, reoccuring blocks in stuff that has nothing to do with each other. so nowadays I am an Arch guy
12:09<pharaun>dominikh: but yeah i'm just a bit control freakish to be honest about my desktop, and i just like how easy it is to completely customize the system, don't want XYZ running, i mean pluseaudio, WTF is that crap (deaf, don't care)
12:09<pharaun>dominikh: haha yes i've been eyeballing arch to be honest
12:09<pharaun>looks interesting, should load up arch onto a VM
12:09<dominikh>Arch is basically like Gentoo, without useflags ;)
12:09<pharaun>i like the useflag aspect
12:09<dominikh>no wonder, it's the only good thing about Gentoo :P
12:09<pharaun>that's the main thing with gentoo, its what makes me stick through all of the bullcrap
12:09<pharaun>the compile thing i don't mind
12:10<pharaun>because my system can do a complete world-rebuild in less than 3 hour
12:10<pharaun>so its a non-issue, i stick around cos of the useflag, loves it
12:11<pharaun>dominikh: my main problem with the other distro that don't have useflag is they *prepick* what is compiled in, if you don't like it,, you are shit out of luck and you need to rebuild it *anyway*
12:11<pharaun>and oh snap if 200 of the other packages already depend on this config
12:11<pharaun>you're fucked
12:12<swaj>pharaun: just stop being anal-rententive and install ubuntu :P
12:12<dominikh>pharaun: I remember installing the ghostscript package on a headless device. it wanted to pull in X and opengl, because of jpeg2k, which has a viewer app...
12:12<pharaun>swaj: i have ubuntu at work
12:12<swaj>sorry Ovron, but debian blows as a desktop imo
12:12<pharaun>i have ubuntu, debian, fedora, and openbsd
12:12<dominikh>Ubuntu blows more.
12:12<mwalling>Ovron: i agree with swaj
12:12<swaj>server, sure... desktop, no thanks
12:13<pharaun>on all of my other machines, its just gentoo on my desktop
12:13<Ovron>oh, we're talking desktops, windows then!
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12:13<Ovron>I agree, I'd hate to use debian as a desktop.
12:13<dominikh>Ubuntu *is* a Debian, on the desktop... shouldn't be too hard to install the apps you need yourself then
12:13<Ovron>^ heh funny
12:13<pharaun>my problem is ubuntu/etc
12:13<swaj>and yeah, I dual-boot Windows 7 and OSX (Hackintosh) at home :P
12:13<pharaun>dumps all of the garbage on you
12:13<pharaun>audio? wtf is that
12:13<pharaun>and bunch other stuff
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12:14<Kos>I'm cool with ubuntu on my laptop... then again I also hate myself a little everytime I boot it
12:14<pharaun>dbus/qbus/fbus/20otherfucking bus
12:14<pharaun>pick one and stfu
12:14<Ovron>short bus
12:14<pharaun>urmom bus
12:14<swaj>dominikh: exactly. Ubuntu = debian that actually works as a nice desktop without having to muck with 800 packages myself.
12:14<pharaun>i run ubuntu/fedora on my two laptop
12:14<pharaun>they work good
12:14<dominikh>swaj: yeah, problem is that 600 of those packages are useless shit
12:14<pharaun>i just want things to work on my laptop so i don't care about the useless shit
12:14<pharaun>but on my desktop, i *care*
12:14<swaj>dominikh: it's not hard to remove them if you don't want them.
12:14<pharaun>swaj: how?
12:15<dominikh>I'd spend more time removing packages from an Ubuntu install than installing packages on an Debian install
12:15<pharaun>if a binary depend on other binary stuff
12:15<pharaun>you're fucked
12:15<swaj>pharaun: it depends a lot
12:15<pharaun>swaj: i guess it depends on what the package is
12:15<pharaun>but my point is, for example on VIM
12:15<pharaun>i compiled it to have ruby support
12:16<pharaun>but if say debian didn't come with ruby support compiled in their deb
12:16<pharaun>i would have to build it *anyway* and deal with supporting it myself
12:16<pharaun>why not let portage take care of that shit
12:16<swaj>nah, usually with that type of stuff, there's another package
12:16<swaj>like vim-ruby
12:16<pharaun>swaj: but won't you end up with conflicts say
12:16<pharaun>you have vim-python, vim-ruby and you want both ?
12:16<swaj>why would you?
12:17<pharaun>why would i?
12:17<pharaun>i program mainly with ruby, but i do dabble with python
12:17<pharaun>hence i would want to support both
12:17<dominikh>vim-python and vim-ruby are both additions to vim
12:17<dominikh>they don't replace the base vim package
12:17<pharaun>uh, isn't ruby/python, like compiled into vim ?
12:18<swaj>you install vim, vim-ruby, and vim-python... now you have vim with ruby and python built in
12:18<pharaun>0_o then how do you uh build it into the VIM binary
12:18<swaj>you don't. You let the packages give you the binaries you need
12:19<pharaun>maybe it was a bad example, but my understanding was
12:19<Cromulent>well that clears that up
12:19<swaj>want vim-gtk? install that too
12:19<pharaun>that the ruby/python stuff was *compiled* into the VIM binary itself?
12:19<JshWright>vim uses plugins for most of that stuff
12:19<pharaun>JshWright: oh?
12:19<swaj>it's compiled separately and added as a plugin
12:19<pharaun>always was under the impression that it was compiled *into* vim
12:19<swaj>they do that a lot.. another example is PHP
12:20<swaj>the base PHP package has a lot of stuff built in, but you can add more modules easily
12:20<pharaun>swaj: yeah i saw
12:20<pharaun>debian got crapload of php-*
12:20<pharaun>well i do run debian on the linode :-p
12:20<swaj>but, even if you don't like what debian gives you
12:20<dominikh>I will gladly install Arch on my VPS :)
12:20<swaj>you can make your own *.deb with checkinstall
12:21<pharaun>swaj: so if i remove something out out of a deb for example
12:21<pharaun>wouldn't that end up breaking the system
12:21<swaj>debs have dependencies.... it'll tell you if the deb you want to remove is being depended on by other packages
12:21<Ovron>depends if something depends on it ( ;) )
12:22<swaj>if it is, you can either remove those packages too, or leave it
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12:22<pharaun>i'm still too much of a control freak on my desktop :-p but i do have fedora/debian on stuff
12:22<pharaun>they work great
12:22<swaj>but checkinstall makes it pretty easy to create you own debs... for example I don't like how far behind ubuntu is on some stuff (nginx, php, ruby, etc.) so I make my own debs
12:23<pharaun>swaj: yeah i noticed
12:23<pharaun>swaj: how would you make your own deb, you still need to set things up? or can you just go checkinstall i want X
12:23<pharaun>then you put in the files/etc
12:23<swaj>you do the standard ./configure && make
12:23<swaj>then sudo checkinstall instead of sudo make install
12:23<swaj>then it bundles up a nice deb for you
12:23<dominikh>and most of the time that works well
12:24<pharaun>swaj: oh really?
12:24<pharaun>that is *nice*
12:24<Ovron>it can get cranky
12:24<Cromulent>unless it fails in which case it is not nice
12:24<JshWright>swaj: you're generally better of using upstream PPAs for that sort of stuff
12:24<pharaun>how does debian deal with ruby?
12:24<pharaun>ruby/python both got a ton of automagic stuff with the gem/etc
12:24<dominikh>"how does debian deal with ruby" <-- they break and torture it and its users
12:25<swaj>they have two versions... the "ruby" package is 1.8.7, but there's a "ruby19" package for 1.9.x
12:25<dominikh>want a clean, working ruby install on Debian? avoid apt completly and use rvm (ruby version manager)
12:25<JshWright>swaj: especially with something like nginx, which seems to have a release every 3 days... tracking the upstream PPA means you don't miss a security update
12:25<swaj>JshWright: I need custom modules compiled into nginx (like phusion) so that doesn't work for me
12:26<pharaun>dominikh: my problem with RVM/etc
12:26<pharaun>is its outside the package manager
12:26<pharaun>to me, the whole point of the package manager is to manage stuff on the system
12:26<JshWright>swaj: sorry, I thought you said you built it from source becuase you didn't like how old the ubuntu version was
12:26<dominikh>pharaun: better than broken stuff. rubygems, e.g.... Debian disabled the built-in update mechanism (because it avoids the package manager), BUT at the same time only shipped a freaking old version of rubygems which didn't even work anymore with the gem repository
12:27<swaj>JshWright: well, I build PHP from source, because I use php-fpm, and ubuntu had no package for that. and I built nginx from source for Phusion Passenger.
12:27<pharaun>dominikh: yeah, gentoo has similiar problem too,
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12:27<dominikh>pharaun: or their 1.9.1 package... for a short period of time, the 1.9.1 package installed a broken 1.8.7
12:27<pharaun>dominikh: i guess i just kind of wish the ruby guy would get their head out of their ass and provide something like make install
12:27<pharaun>so that package can wrap it up into a *.deb
12:27<pharaun>without having to hack shit apart everysingle goddamn time
12:27<swaj>pharaun: the situation isn't much better with python, even though they depend on it so heavily.
12:28<pharaun>swaj: python too but we were talking about ruby :)
12:28<pharaun>python pisses me off too
12:28<swaj>pharaun: that shit's always out of date.. better off building your own
12:28<pharaun>perl isn't too bad, the gentoo-team gave a g-cpan app
12:28<pharaun>that lets you auto-pull cpan stuff into a ebuild
12:28<swaj>pharaun: mono's the same. I use mono, and they never keep up.
12:28<JshWright>yeah... I apt-get install python-setuptools, and after that, it's all easy_install for python stuff on debuntu
12:28<pharaun>that's what i would like for ruby/perl
12:28<Cromulent>JshWright: yep that is my method too
12:28<dominikh>pharaun: gems are simple tarballs, rubygems also allows installing them to a custom location (=sandbox) etc. Arch, e.g., can install gems via pacman, and they will work properly
12:28<pharaun>some sort of package-gem or etc that would convert it into a package, then you can get up to date package
12:28<HoopyCat>1) both debian and ubuntu freeze the versions on release and backport bug fixes, so it's not that the version in ubuntu is old, it's that you're running 8.04 LTS :-) 2) look at dh-make-*
12:29<Cromulent>makes it easy to keep ubuntu server and mac os x in sync
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12:29<HoopyCat>and for python stuff, look at virtualenv... it is very tasty
12:29<swaj>I'd use virtualenv/RVM for python/ruby
12:29<swaj>forget the distro packages
12:29<pharaun>swaj: yeh i know stuff is out of date, but 99% of the time i don't care if its old, if i really need *UP TO DATE* stuff i can take care of updating/proving my own ebuilds np
12:29<pharaun>swaj: but then how would that interact with the package installer
12:29<MaZ->virtualenv and pip
12:30<swaj>pharaun: it doesn't... RVM keeps everything isolated, for example.
12:30<pharaun>swaj: oh how/where ?
12:30<pharaun>i may need to look into this
12:30<swaj>pharaun: usually in your home directory.
12:30<pharaun>would make my life easier
12:30<dominikh>in your home directory
12:30<HoopyCat>if you're running a dozen django sites on one server, it is quite nice being able to move the decision of django version from a system-wide choice to a developer choice
12:30<pharaun>that's what i wanted
12:30<pharaun>that shit go into ~/whatever
12:30<dominikh>RVM supports installing mutiple rubies, and multiple gemsets per ruby
12:30<swaj>pharaun: look into RVM, it's really, really nice. You even get gemsets.
12:31<MaZ->pretty much everything i've written in the last year with substantial deps on external libraries has been dumped in a virtualenv
12:31<MaZ->its just a nice way of doing it
12:31<pharaun>swaj: indeed, i wanted something like that for ruby but tied into the package manager, but if that shit goes into a ~/.whatever
12:31<swaj>pharaun: then you can put .rvmrc files in your ruby projects that tell rvm which version of ruby you want and which gemset to load.
12:31<pharaun>then that works for me too, i had same issue with R wanting to dump shit into my /usr and i forced it to put it into ~/.R and that worked great
12:31<swaj>pharaun: and when you change into that directory, RVM loads everything for you automagically.
12:31<pharaun>gets best of both world
12:31<HoopyCat>there is nothing wrong with using apt as your system-wide package manager and virtualenv (or whatnot) as your project-specific package manager. that's what love is all about.
12:32<pharaun>up to date stuff + keep shit outside of the package manager's domain
12:32<@jed>virtualenv rocks
12:32<@jed>seriously, it rocks so much face I can't take it
12:32<swaj>jed: I feel the same about RVM :P
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12:32<pharaun>swaj: anyway sweet, that's nice, i'm going to have to check this out :-D
12:32<pharaun>swaj: sounds like it'll be the solution to all of my ruby bitchfest
12:32<HoopyCat>RVM is probably the same kinda thing, it's just that the closest i come to ruby is having a book about it on my bookshelf
12:32<swaj>pharaun: welcome to ruby development, the non-suck edition :P
12:33<swaj>pharaun: you can have a gemset for every project you run, and then RVM handles it all for you. You can even have a "global" gemset that all other gemsets share.
12:33<pharaun>swaj: INDEED, i've been stuck in the suck-edition because i did not want to permit ruby to mangle up my /usr/.... directory structure to its pleasure
12:33<pharaun>swaj: per project gemset i would like
12:34<swaj>pharaun: it goes further too.. per project rubies, also. One rails site on rails 3 with ruby 1.9.2 and custom gemset... another sinatra site on 1.8.7 with it's own gemset, too.
12:34<pharaun>swaj: that.... rocks
12:34<swaj>yeah, it rocks hard :P
12:34<pharaun>swaj: been refraining from using a bunch of stuff on some of my projects due to dependencies issue with ruby/package manager
12:35<pharaun>looks like i'll be able to finish some of this shit up nicely with RVM
12:35<swaj>pharaun: and the best part is... it all lives in ~/.rvm... your system doesn't need to know or give a shit about it
12:35<pharaun>that is what i like
12:35<pharaun>the most
12:35<pharaun>i guess i'm just picky but to me
12:35<HoopyCat>nor do you need root to fuddle around with it
12:35<pharaun>its a sin to fuck with the system installation without going through the package manager
12:35<pharaun>if you want something custon, that shit go into your ~/
12:36<swaj>yeah, no more "sudo gem install"... since it's in your homedir, just "gem install" works fine
12:36<pharaun>swaj: indeed, i refused to do gem install cos it would fuck with the system, so i end up having to do several painful ebuild hackfeast to get it to go
12:36<HoopyCat>sudoing should be safe, legal, and rare
12:36<mwalling>ooohhh rvm
12:36<pharaun>HoopyCat: rare is the keyword
12:36<mwalling>i might start playing with that one
12:37<pharaun>anyway thanks for bringing RVM to my attention
12:37<swaj>pharaun: the next cool thing is that Phusion Passenger 3.0.0 is compatible with multiple rubies.... I *think* it can even do the RVM gemsets
12:37<pharaun>looks like it might be the solution :-D
12:37<pharaun>swaj: ah nice, i've been eyeballing phusion
12:37<swaj>I've yet to tinker with 3.0.0, so I can't be sure
12:37<swaj>but I know it supports multiple rubies for sure
12:37<pharaun>because i've been wanting to do some web-dev with ruby but the whole thing seemed like a clusterfuck, didn't want to install rails, just wanted a minimal cgi/etc env
12:38<pharaun>rails is too automagical for me, i'm not doing massive devs/etc just wanted some basic cgi/etc stuff on the webpage
12:38<swaj>pharaun: check out rack if you want minimal... or sinatra. They're really sweet and get you close to the metal.
12:38<mwalling>pharaun: frameworks are all the shit now
12:38<pharaun>mwalling: i know, i just want to learn the whole thing from the ground up, i've never done much of webdev
12:38<swaj>pharaun: sinatra is just a small layer on top of rack to help with routing and such. So you'd probably really like it. It's very thin, very nice.
12:39<pharaun>so i've been learning everything from ground up so i can better understand everything
12:39<pharaun>swaj: sounds like it to me
12:39<pharaun>to me, its silly to use framework if you don't understand how it work, but that's just IMHO to be honest
12:39<swaj>check it out
12:39<pharaun>makes it easier to be able to fix things when the "magic" breaks
12:39<mwalling>i disagree a bit
12:40<pharaun>mwalling: how so?
12:40<mwalling>i shouldnt have to know the internals of the django orm, it "just works"
12:40<pharaun>i mean sure i will never understand the complete J2EE framework
12:40<swaj>and Phusion Passenger can host any rack app... Sinatra is built on top of Rack, so you can put 2 and 2 together :P
12:40<pharaun>but this is my own homepage/webpage, so i want to understand how everything comes together and works together
12:40<Cromulent>thats one reason to choose pylons :)
12:40<pharaun>really, i am more of a backend dev, i like working on framework, i like working on the background, etc,
12:41<pharaun>so the more i understand about that domain the better imho
12:41<pharaun>swaj: indeed, and haha 'put this in your pipe and smoke it"
12:41<swaj>pharaun: if you wanna mess around with python web dev in a "close-to-the-metal" experience like that.. you can check out bottle, or weurkzerg (dunno if I spelled that right)
12:41<swaj>bottle is a lot like sinatra, imo
12:42<pharaun>swaj: haven't gotten that much into python yet, should try it out more in depth someday so i'll take you up on that but for now
12:42<pharaun>i'm going to stick with ruby for my homepage
12:42<pharaun>i mean i've never done webdev/etc so my homepage has been a really learning experience
12:42<swaj>yeah... I'm a .NET developer in my day job, but I *love* ruby :P
12:42<pharaun>swaj: :< i'm a javadev :<
12:42*mwalling too
12:42<mwalling>javase though
12:43<swaj>I'm doing ASP.NET MVC and Silverlight these days.
12:43<pharaun>j2ee, good god its a mess
12:43<mwalling>(which i suspect SCOracle is going to murder)
12:43<swaj>all C#
12:43<pharaun>mwalling: won't; be surprised
12:43<mwalling>javase doesnt help oracle sell databases
12:43<pharaun>swaj: so on the RVM, all i would need to do is install RVM then i can tell it to get like sinatra/etc and off i go ?
12:44<swaj>pharaun: exactly... basically you install rvm... then you tell rvm to install ruby for you. then you can use "gem" and "ruby" just like normal
12:44<pharaun>alright, on rvm would it be better to install it systemwide or just like into my ~/
12:45<swaj>pharaun: so "mkdir mysinatraapp" then "rvm gemset create mysinatraapp"
12:45<swaj>the mkdir isn't necessary :P
12:45<@pparadis>i just read that as "itsatrap"
12:45<swaj>RVM isn't system-wide, there is not system-wide RVM.... it all lives in ~/
12:46<pharaun>swaj: heh alright, looks like i'll need to do a bit of cleaning up on my homedir and expand it a bit then but this should work
12:46<pharaun>swaj: it does use the system installed ruby
12:46<pharaun>swaj: or do it get its own ruby/etc
12:46<swaj>it installs its own and compiles from source
12:47<mwalling>oh wow
12:47<pharaun>swaj: ah so if i already have some ruby stuff on the system i would need to re-fetch it via rvm for...
12:47<mwalling>isnt that a bit... expensive?
12:47<pharaun>mwalling: expensive ?
12:47<pharaun>Robdgreat: yes i'm reading this
12:47<mwalling>idk, installing a whole new ruby each time you create a virtual env?
12:47<swaj>pharaun: it's not going to care what ruby you have installed or what gems you have installed. it manages all of it for you.
12:47<swaj>mwalling: no.
12:48<mwalling>no its not, or no thats not what it does
12:48<swaj>mwalling: you install one ruby, under RVM... (or multiple if you want)
12:48<swaj>mwalling: and then you can have custom gemsets
12:48<Robdgreat>mwalling: you install each desired version once, then switch between them at will
12:48<pharaun>been really wanting to test ruby 1.9
12:48<mwalling>oh, so gemsets are analogous to virtualenvs?
12:48<pharaun>but has been staying far away cos gentoo said it would break shit
12:48<mwalling>and rvm ruby isntalls...a re differetn?
12:49<pharaun>so sweet, rvm... :-D
12:49<swaj>pharaun: so then it's "rvm install 1.9.2"
12:49<swaj>and then "rvm use 1.9.2"
12:49<swaj>then "ruby -v" will show you 1.9.2 :P
12:49<pharaun>been wanting to try some stuff
12:49<Robdgreat>mwalling: you can maintain separate gemsets as well as separate ruby versions
12:49<pharaun>swaj: so how would RVM interacts with some of the pre-installed ruby apps? would it override/screw up them? cos i know i already have a few app installed that runs on ruby
12:49<swaj>pharaun: and if for some reason you ever want to use your system ruby, you can just "rvm system" and now your distro-supplied ruby works.
12:50<pharaun>swaj: ah
12:50<dominikh>pharaun: oh btw, the guys responsible for ruby in gentoo really really hate RVM ;)
12:50<pharaun>dominikh: oh really?
12:50<pharaun>dominikh: how come?
12:50<dominikh>pharaun: yeah, because it doesn't use portage/their fancy ruby ebuilds
12:50<swaj>it has its own build scripts for each version of ruby
12:50<pharaun>dominikh: ah, figures, well its a *bitch* to get stuff installed in gentoo w/ ruby
12:51<pharaun>so i'm not going to bother till they provide something like rvm/easy for setting up stuff
12:51<pharaun>beside its in my ~/ so what's the problem?
12:51<swaj>check that out for max awesome
12:51<dominikh>pharaun: I guess it's about their honour ;) ofc they think that their ebuilds are the one solution to the problem
12:51<pharaun>all i *care* is keeping *custom shit out* of /usr /lib /etc ... let the package manager take care of that, it is good at *that* stuff
12:52<pharaun>dominikh: pfft
12:52<pharaun>i don't give a damn
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12:52<dominikh>:) good boy *patpat*
12:52<pharaun>ruby on gentoo is broken clusterfuck
12:52<pharaun>i like portage it does excellent job on system lib/etc...
12:52<pharaun>but ruby/portage, fuck no
12:52<dominikh>swaj: heh, I didn't even know about per project .rvmrc
12:53<swaj>dominikh: yeah, pretty sexy :P
12:53<pharaun>i mean when the gentoo guy provides something like
12:53<pharaun>g-cpan for ruby/python
12:53<pharaun>sure i'll use that instead but meh
12:53<pharaun>not going to happen anytime soon, i want something easy to install not spending oh 20 hours trying to get it wedged
12:53<swaj>pharaun: it still won't solve the problem if needing project-specific rubies and gems
12:54<pharaun>swaj: yeah i know,
12:54<pharaun>well i haven't done rvm yet but looks like its my solution
12:54<pharaun>so looks like i can clean out some of my custom ebuild mess out and get a nice rvm install going
12:54<swaj>yeah... go through the docs, it's well worth the read.
12:54<swaj>specifically gemsets and rvmrc
12:54<swaj>I would focus on
12:55<swaj>pharaun: there's even a vim plugin for RVM to tell you your gemset/ruby versions in the status line :)
12:55<pharaun>sweet i need that
12:58<dominikh>and rvm provides a shell script to include in your prompt, too!
12:58<pharaun>nah, i like a light "prompt"
12:58<tjfontaine>what is this PS1 of what you speak
12:58<dominikh>pharaun: dunno, it helps me to know which ruby I got loaded :p
12:58<pharaun>is my prompt, nice and simple
12:59<swaj><3 zsh
12:59<dominikh>my prompt is 2 lines long, has a RPROMPT and can contain battery information, ruby version, exit code, background jobs, and on my desktop also the charge of my UPS
12:59<pharaun>that's what conky on my 2nd monitor is for
13:00<pharaun>i have a 21" monitor as my aux monitor, i stuff it full of conky monitors
13:00<dominikh>a) notebook here, most of the time b) conky, haha. I don't see my desktop for longer than 5 seconds, and that's right after booting ;)
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13:00<pharaun>dominikh: aha, haha, desktop :-p 2x6core xeons
13:00<dominikh>no wonder you can stand Gentoo...
13:00<dominikh>my desktop is an old P4 with 3.2GHz :p
13:00<pharaun>beside i have 2 screen a 30" for dev/etc + 21" for status/everything/else
13:01<pharaun>dominikh: like i said, a complete world rebuild = 3 hour
13:01<dominikh>I use tiling WMs only, so no desktop for me
13:01<pharaun>dominikh: haha nice
13:01<pharaun>i currently use openbox
13:01<pharaun>been eyeballing xmonad but never got around to it tbh
13:01<pharaun>but even if i did i probably would still reserve my 21" as the "status/chat/whatever" screen
13:01<pharaun>it works good, i throw all of the chat/bullshit/alert/etc
13:02<pharaun>all onto the 21 so there's no distraction, no nothing on the 30"
13:02<pharaun>but really want to try out xmonad out tbh
13:02<pharaun>dominikh: what tile wm you use?
13:02<dominikh>it's quite funny. I have 2x19" sitting on my desk, but ever since I got my notebook I am working on 15.4" only
13:02<straterra>mwalling: I trolled a friend of yours :P
13:02<dominikh>pharaun: the WM is called subtle
13:02<pharaun>dominikh: interesting, never heard of it
13:02<pharaun>recent one ?
13:03<dominikh>pharaun: yeah, it's not really well known. I think it's some years in dev already, but only a bunch of people use it. written in C, config is in ruby, "sublets" (items for the panel) are written in ruby, there's an ruby extension to control the WM, etc
13:03<tjfontaine>straterra: itym you were yourself to someone
13:03<pharaun>dominikh: heh some day is like that, i do have a pentium-mobile laptop, but its really old/slow so i use it as a X11 term to my desktop :)
13:03<pharaun>dominikh: inteeeeeeeresting
13:04<dominikh>pharaun: ;)
13:04<pharaun>haha i was searching for it
13:04<straterra>tjfontaine: say wha
13:05<pharaun>dominikh: how long did it take you to adjust to a tiling wm, been wanting to use one for a while, never got around to it
13:05<dominikh>pharaun: hm, I don't know... before I used floating WMs that could arrange windows in a tiled layout ;)
13:05<pharaun>dominikh: i wonder how it would interact with gimp/blender/etc
13:06<dominikh>pharaun: plus, all tiling WMs allow you to have floating windows, so it's not a real problem
13:06<pharaun>yeah, i tend to tile thing on my 30"
13:06<pharaun>but my 21" tend to have things stacked up partly so i can see the chat/irc/etc binking if someone messaged me but otherwise its hidden by the status/browser
13:06<pharaun>so if i can retain an float/stacked setup on the 21" and a tiled on 30" that would be ideal
13:07<dominikh>my browser is on a different desktop than IRC/IM, and I check IRC/IM every so many minutes when I am working
13:07<pharaun>dominikh: ah i tend to have browser on the 21 so that i can use it to refer to doc/api/etc/whatever
13:07<pharaun>and if its just browsering/screwing around it goes onto the 30 but otherwise that shit go to the 21
13:08<dominikh>oh, and: if you're really going to try subtle: build directly from hg. the cutting edge version usually is the better one in this case. e.g. it just recently got better multihead support
13:08<pharaun>ah? nice
13:08<pharaun>yeah multihead support is important ;-p
13:08<dominikh>now each screen can have its own set of views (view == desktop) and they can be changed independently
13:09<pharaun>thats sweet, i have 8 desktop :-p
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13:09<pharaun>changing independently = big win
13:09<dominikh>and it works like that: clients have tags, and views display tags
13:09<pharaun>openbox does not have that sadly
13:09<dominikh>so a client can be on more than one view (even with different sizes and positions)
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13:09<pharaun>dominikh: i wonder about GIMP
13:10<pharaun>my setup is the picture/etc fullscreen on the 30" and all of the tool/everything else go onto the 21
13:10<dominikh>you could write a config that does just that
13:10<pharaun>that works then
13:10<dominikh>(if gimp uses proper WM_CLASSes ...)
13:10<pharaun>who knows if it does
13:10<dominikh>you, soon :P
13:10<pharaun>its usually an example of an app that interacts badly with tiling wm
13:10<dominikh>I am still waiting for the new single-window GIMP interface..
13:11<pharaun>nah i don't want that
13:11<pharaun>i like full screen image only on 30"
13:11<dominikh>yeah, with 2 screens that sucks
13:11<pharaun>everything else, go else where
13:11<dominikh>but yeah, I think it should be possible to configure subtle like that
13:11<pharaun>its nice cos i can restrict my wacom to be only on the 30"
13:11<pharaun>so i can use the whole pad to the whole 30"
13:12<pharaun>works *great* for editing/working on panoramas
13:12<pharaun>dominikh: anyway thanks, got another tiling wm to check out :-D
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13:13<pharaun>looks like i'll need to make time to spin up a vm, get this shit installed and get going
13:13<pharaun>on testing stuff out,
13:14<mwalling>straterra: mughi?
13:14<pharaun>thanks, going to have to go, my pictures are done being framed woohoo! finally goddamn it
13:14<mwalling>straterra: he fell off his sandcastle before the proxy died here
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13:24<linbot>New news from forums: How to get startet?? in Sales Questions and Answers <>
13:25-!-Tony [] has joined #linode
13:26<amitz>I wonder if USB-SSD is worth it, given the bottleneck at USB?
13:30-!-Tony [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
13:30<Ovron>without having tested one... I dare saying: no.
13:30-!-Dreamer3 [] has joined #linode
13:31<Boohemian>hey, if anybody wants to work for facebook, i got a semi-private job posting yesterday that i was told to pass on to anybody who may be interested/qualified. here you go, if you want to check it out and maybe apply:
13:31-!-cats [] has joined #linode
13:31<DephNet[Paul]>does anyone that uses Ubuntu as a desktop know if I can have one workspace per monitor, rather than stretch the workspace across all monitors?
13:32<tjfontaine>I don't think with metacity/compiz you can do that, you could do two xservs though
13:34<DephNet[Paul]>tjfontaine, thanks, I guess I will keep googling
13:35<tjfontaine>DephNet[Paul]: it's really about how xorg represents the monitors
13:35<DephNet[Paul]>i know there is no difference from stretch workspaces and one workspace per monitor, but I just prefer 1 workspace per monitor
13:36<amitz>Ovron: hmm
13:37<amitz>Boohemian: I heard you're guaranteed an interview if you can solved one of the most difficult facebook puzzle.
13:37<Ovron>amitz: you still get the benefit of fast seek times... but everything is pretty much nerfed down - imo, it would be a waste of a SSD to have it hooked up to USb.
13:37<Ovron>USB *
13:38<amitz>Ovron: too bad I don't have esata on my notebook -_-
13:38<Ovron>amitz: any xpress card slot or whatever those are called these days?
13:38<mwalling>amitz: how to lie, cheat, and steal?
13:39<Ovron>Working at facebook; is being a good farmville player a requirement?
13:39<@jed>Putting issues of student abilities aside, the growing disconnect between labor market realities and the propaganda of higher-education apologists is causing more and more people to graduate and take menial jobs or no job at all. This is even true at the doctoral and professional level—there are 5,057 janitors in the U.S. with Ph.D.’s, other doctorates, or professional degrees.
13:39<@jed>^ heh
13:39<amitz>Ovron: unfortunately, no. -_-
13:40<Ovron>jed, I wonder how many of those 5,057 are immigrants
13:40<mwalling>h1b visa to clean floors?
13:41<amitz>I got an email saying that if I solve just one of the red one, they will interview me or something like that.
13:41<Talman>Cheap. Fucking. Bastards.
13:41<DephNet[Paul]>now, I just need to find a PCIe card I can plug 2 monitors into
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13:43<Ovron>DephNet[Paul]: You mean... a normal video card? :p
13:43<mwalling>Talman: wow
13:44<amitz>oh, no. They didn't promise that. Just checked the email.
13:44<Talman>A weekend on Gull Lake costs about 75 bucks.
13:44<DephNet[Paul]>Ovron, as long as it can take two monitors
13:44<Boohemian>amitz: i don't want to work for fb. i'm working on a new, exciting, open source project utilizing drupal for the betterment of the world (hey, maybe that should be my tagline! :))
13:44<DephNet[Paul]>and is not hugely expensive
13:45<Ovron>DephNet[Paul]: If you're looking at purchasing, any of the lowend nvidia and ati will both support two monitors.
13:45<DephNet[Paul]>Ovron, that looks good, bit on the high side for a price though, for me
13:46<Ovron>That card is not half bad, although I prefer nvidia myself. Depends really what you're expecting to be able to do with it.
13:46<DephNet[Paul]>im not a huge gamer, so I dont need a £600 card :P
13:46<Ovron>There are much cheaper ones, if gaming is not a requirement
13:47<Ovron>lets have a looksie
13:47<amitz>Boohemian: facebook pays quite well ;-)
13:48<Boohemian>amitz: if it goes public and you're an early worker, i bet
13:48<DephNet[Paul]>Ovron, what about the Geforce 9500GT? whats that like?
13:48<Ovron>DephNet[Paul]: it is a rather old card, but if you're not gaming, it would probably suit your purposes.
13:49<Ovron>DephNet[Paul]: how much is that one?
13:49<DephNet[Paul]>Ovron, £60 from Maplin
13:49<amitz>Boohemian: no...seriously. Facebook pays quite generously right now. They're like the evil version of google. -_-
13:50<Kos>so the google version of google
13:50<Ovron>A GT240 would probably be better. The 9xxx series is older, and probably the cards are more expensive due to not being produced anymore.
13:51<amitz>Kos: heh :-p
13:52<DephNet[Paul]>Ovron, £57, not bad, would that work in a UK machine? I know the voltages are different in the states, but will that matter?
13:52<JshWright>DephNet[Paul]: that's the power supply's concern
13:52<Ovron>DephNet[Paul]: it certainly would - not different on internal components.
13:52<Talman>Jesus christ. <- This guy will give you free rope shitting if you design him a website.
13:52<Ovron>DephNet[Paul]: I bet you can find it in an UK shop - I just used newegg to find a card that is suitable as they got loads of stuff.
13:53<DephNet[Paul]>Ovron, Newegg is probably cheaper, no VAT :P
13:53<Ovron>DephNet[Paul]: Yeah I don't know, I wouldn't order across the atlantic to be honest :p
13:53<DephNet[Paul]>although, I *might* have to pay import duty, but that is 5% I think
13:54<DephNet[Paul]>Ovron, yeah, it might get lost at sea :P
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13:54<Ovron>DephNet[Paul]: That card looks like an overall decent lowend card, which isn't that lowend at all considering the cost.
13:55<Ovron>It being nvidia, you'd get CUDA acceleration etc in applications that support it.
13:55<DephNet[Paul]>which one? the Newegg one or the TomsHardware one?
13:55<straterra>mwalling: no..a java lover :P
13:55<Ovron>DephNet[Paul]: the GT240.
13:56<Ovron>DephNet[Paul]: (which is the same model, just different manufacturer of the actual card. Both are GT240 chipsets)
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13:57<Ovron>67 GBP inc vat, and free delivery - guess it isn't too bad.
13:57<DephNet[Paul]>Ovron, call me stupid, but I cant run two monitors using the same connection type, like HDMI on that card
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13:59<Ovron>That card has three connectors; two can be used at the same time. If you you have DVI on your two monitors, you can just use a cheap hdmi->DVI converter for the secondary.
13:59<amitz>DephNet[Paul]: depends on the video card.
13:59<amitz>cheap ones share the output of 2 sockets.
13:59<Ovron>All nvidia do.
14:00<Ovron>If you mean, able to produce signal on two sockets.
14:00<amitz>Ovron: that's what I meant.
14:00<DephNet[Paul]>well, I currently have an 8 year old 21inch CRT, which is being replaced in a few weeks time, was going to get 2 of the same type of monitor, which would mean 2 of the same connectors
14:00<Ovron>Then yes, all nvidia cards only display on up to two monitors.
14:00<Ovron>DephNet[Paul]: HDMI is basically DVI + audio channel.
14:00<Ovron>So you can use a cheap converter to turn it into a DVI.
14:01<DephNet[Paul]>ahh, fair enough
14:01<DephNet[Paul]>just gotta save the £200 for the monitors, and the £60-£100 for the card
14:02<amitz>a bit of warning, turning DVI output to HDMI is a voodo art.
14:02<Ovron>amitz: it is not voodoo at all. Do explain.
14:02<amitz>but not HDMI output to DVI input, this one is almost guaranteed.
14:02<Ovron>oh, sorry - missread ;)
14:03<mwalling>straterra: huh?
14:03<amitz>oh :-p
14:03<DephNet[Paul]>amitz, so get monitors with HDMI connectors
14:03<Ovron>amitz: although, I am using DVi -> HDMI for my TV. Works pretty flawless - but I am sure some TVs/monitors might be upset.
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14:03<amitz>DephNet[Paul]: I have too many monitors now...
14:04<DephNet[Paul]>amitz, no, I was asking if i should get them, sorry
14:04<Ovron>DephNet[Paul]: He meant that DVI would be a safer bet - but you'd be at a hard task to purchase a monitor that does not have DVI - it might also have a HDMI if it is a bit more expensive.
14:04<JshWright>amitz: finally got around to finding another picture of my cat
14:04<JshWright>(242 sighting)
14:05<DephNet[Paul]>Ovron, DVI connectors are the one that look a bit like VGA ones?
14:05<amitz>Ovron: HDMI (computer) -> DVI (monitor), now that's difficult. I had bought 2 different connectors, all failed to work -_-
14:05<Ovron>DephNet[Paul]: a bit yes.
14:06<DephNet[Paul]>Ovron, and HDMI is a *bit* like USB or Firewire, if your drunk
14:06<Ovron>amitz: fair enough, I guess it is up to the downstream device to make sure it understands DVI on HDMI as well. Samsung monitors and TVs seem to do this.
14:06<Ovron>DephNet[Paul]: correct
14:06<amitz>JshWright: well, I still can't really measure it's body size, damn you! :-p
14:07<DephNet[Paul]>Ovron, got you, so I would need a HDMI->DVI connector?
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14:07<JshWright>amitz: heh, I'll see what I can up with
14:07<straterra>mwalling: don't you love Java?
14:07<Ovron>DephNet[Paul]: correct, or a cable that has HDMI on one end, and DVI on the other. I use a cable that has the two different contacts.
14:08<mwalling>straterra: sure i do
14:08<Ovron>It is a passive converter etc, HDMI<->DVI for video signal is 1:1 mappable
14:09<DephNet[Paul]>Ovron, got you, but I guess the best thing is to spend that extra bit of money and get a dual HDMI card
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14:09<Ovron>DephNet[Paul]: You probably won't find a dual HDMI card.
14:09<straterra>mwalling: so..I trolled a coworker about Java. He adores Java. I said having an intranet that requires 8GB of ram is nuts.
14:09<mwalling>straterra: *sigh*
14:10<straterra>He said that any website that isn't static HTML should need 2GB of memory minimum :P
14:10<JshWright>reverse troll
14:10<amitz>meta troll
14:10<straterra>Which then prompted me to pull out perl, php, c++, python..pretty much EVERY other language thats used with web devel that didn't need 2GB of ram to do it :)
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14:10<Ovron>DephNet[Paul]: indeed, all GT240 seems to be 1x HDMI, 1x VGA, 1x DVI.
14:10-!-MetaCosm_ [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
14:11<straterra>I even uesd my linode as an example. Half a gig of memory running mysql, apache and several non-static projects
14:11<Ovron>DephNet[Paul]: it really is nothing to worry about. HDMI -> DVI *will* work.
14:11<straterra>He got pissed and I was happy
14:12<DephNet[Paul]>Ovron, cool, just as long as I won't waste a day trying to get it to work
14:12<amitz>Ovron: I didn't really follow but are you sure you have the correct direction?
14:12<Ovron>DephNet[Paul]: I bet you can find cheaper cables than those on ebuyer.
14:13-!-tharkun [~0@] has joined #linode
14:13<amitz>Ovron: DVI on computer and HDMI on monitor is almost certainly work, but not certain about the other way around.
14:13<Ovron>Alternatively, you want a converter that is HDMI (F) and DVI-D (M);
14:14<DephNet[Paul]>amitz, the monitor will be HDMI, so I need one of
14:14<Ovron>amitz: well luckily enough, he would be using DVI<->DVI for one monitor, and HDMI(card)<->DVI(monitor); not much to worry about.
14:14<tharkun>Gentlemen good evening, how can i download a .deb package of the kernel my linode is running. I need to do some testings but i am not willing to do it in a production server ?
14:14<JshWright>tharkun: you can't
14:14<JshWright>you can download the source used and make your own deb package
14:15<amitz>Ovron: oh, that's problematic for my case: HDMI (card) <-> DVI (monittor)
14:15<Ovron>DephNet[Paul]: You can do this in a few different ways. If your monitor has HDMI-in, then you don't need any converter. You just connect one via HDMI cable, and the other via DVI cable.
14:15<tharkun>JshWright: Thx, i was about to do a full rant over that ;P
14:15<Boohemian>amitz: google is becoming pretty evil, unless they reversed their decision on ruining net neutrality
14:15<JshWright>over what?
14:15<amitz>DephNet[Paul]: but if your monitor is HDMI, you should be fine.
14:15<DephNet[Paul]>amitz, sorry, they will be DVI
14:16<DephNet[Paul]>im confused
14:16<Ovron>DephNet[Paul]: I am now as well
14:16<amitz>...well, ignore me for now. I didn't really follow the conversation so... Let Ovron untangles the confusion ;-)
14:16<Ovron>Monitor #1: DVI to DVI. You're set. Nothing to worry about.
14:16<DephNet[Paul]>Ovron, ill buy the monitors, then bug you about the connectors, if that is ok?
14:17<DephNet[Paul]>thats what I will do then, thanks for your help Ovron and yours too amitz
14:17-!-maku`off is now known as maku
14:17<amitz>Boohemian: the way I see it, google is the least evil, at least for large company ;-).
14:17<Ovron>Monitor #2: HDMI(card) to DVI(monitor). amitz says he has issues with this - I use this setup on my Samsung monitors, and a friend uses it on Benq and another cheap brand I can't remember the name of - and it works.
14:18<Ovron>If you buy decent monitors, you should be fine :D
14:18<DephNet[Paul]>but first, graphics card, you say the GT210?
14:19<Ovron>No, the GT240
14:19<DephNet[Paul]>yeah, sorry, I had a 210 open, i meant 240
14:20<Ovron>DephNet[Paul]: Well, it looks like an overall nice card, and a relatively low pricetag. It isn't completely gimped, and will offer some acceleration in games, and it also supports CUDA. If I wanted a lowend card for something, I'd probably get that one.
14:20<amitz>Boohemian: The motto of my company, if any, will be "Do least evil". Seriously :-p
14:20<DephNet[Paul]>and as much onboard ram as I can afford, so 1GB, or does the RAM not matter, as I will not be a gaming machine?
14:20<Ovron>Obviously, if you doubled the price - you'd have a card that is capable of decent gaming, but since that isn't a requirement - this should do fine.
14:21<Ovron>DephNet[Paul]: You mean the RAM on the video card, right?
14:21<amitz>Do no evil is simply impossible. Heck, even do least evil is already difficult since deciding on the leastness of evil is difficult.
14:21<Boohemian>amitz: are you familiar with their stance on net neutrality? maybe it isn't an issue overseas yet as they are testing it in the USA...
14:21<Ovron>DephNet[Paul]: it wouldn't matter for you, no. So 512MB or 1GB.
14:21<DephNet[Paul]>Ovron, great, thanks :)
14:22<amitz>Boohemian: I'm not familiar with it, let me uh.. google.
14:22<Ovron>DephNet[Paul]: sure thing
14:24<amitz>Boohemian: okay... that's potentially evil... surprising...
14:25<hobot>google just upped it's lobbying money too
14:25<Boohemian>yeah, 1.6 or 1.3mln, i forget
14:25<amitz>needs time to digest.
14:26<hobot>I want to say more than that
14:26<Boohemian>hobot: do you know how much went to their net neutrality hope; i thought most was for mobile stuff
14:26<hobot>no youre right
14:26<Boohemian>(that's for the latest quarter)
14:26<hobot>I did not see the breakout
14:26<hobot>on that, lemme look it up
14:29<hobot>doesnt look like I have any idea
14:29<linbot>New news from forums: poor performance on TCP/IP socket (Ubuntu Lucid) on Linode in Linux Networking <>
14:30-!-decklin [] has joined #linode
14:30-!-cats [] has joined #linode
14:34<GLaDOSDan>oh my god
14:34<Ovron>OH DAMN
14:34<GLaDOSDan>i almost forgot
14:34<GLaDOSDan>i mean
14:34*TheFirst beats jed profused about the head and neck with a large blunt object
14:34<linbot>New news from linodelibrary: Multiple Web Servers with ProxyPass on Ubuntu 10.10 (Maverick) <> || Use MySQL Relational Databases on Ubuntu 10.10 (Maverick) <> || Host Email with Postfix, Dovecot and MySQL on Ubuntu 10.10 (Maverick) <
14:34<Boohemian>pparadis: are you here?
14:35<Boohemian>is submitting guides to the linode library by non-linode employees new? i thought when i offered to make a tutorial for apache solr on debian lenny, i was told i could only make a wiki page for it, not have it in the linode library
14:35-!-triel [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
14:35<Boohemian>hey GLaDOSDan - are you able to help me with my cron issues now? i'm using debian lenny
14:35<GLaDOSDan>Boohemian: type
14:35<GLaDOSDan>sudo ps aux | grep cron
14:36-!-triel [] has joined #linode
14:36<@pparadis>Boohemian: it's relatively new, and we're happy to have user contributions
14:36<DephNet[Paul]>Ovron, one other question, does NVIDIA release drivers for Linux?
14:36<@pparadis>Boohemian: did you see this page yet?
14:37<Ovron>DephNet[Paul]: Yes they do
14:37<@pparadis> <-- ?
14:37<DephNet[Paul]>Ovron, good, although I guess you will say use the ones from Ubuntu :P
14:38<@pparadis>actually i believe ubuntu provides binary nvidia drivers if you enable that option
14:38<@pparadis>"restricted drivers"
14:38<Ovron>pparadis: they do, debian does as well
14:39<sirpengi>in archlinux it's already in the default repos
14:40<DephNet[Paul]>no problems, thatnks people
14:40<linbot>New news from forums: Restricting access to the "directory view" aka ind in Web Servers and Web App Development <>
14:40<ixokai>Okay... lish is, all by itself, more then enough reason to drop rackspace and move over.
14:41-!-a|newkirk[assoc] [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
14:42<DephNet[Paul]>Ovron, i guess if id does not work out I have a new graphs card, I can grab the source code
14:42<Boohemian>pparadis: yes, that is why i'm asking
14:43<Boohemian>pparadis: okay, thanks. quick question: if i write the tutorial, can it *only* be on in other words, can i not have the tutorial also available on my site?
14:43<Ovron>DephNet[Paul]: nvidia drivers were a headache during a period on linux, but it seems they are fairly stable and straight forward nowadays. Shouldn't be too much trouble.
14:44<tharkun>FTR if you install the nvidia drivers from their site, you usually have to reinstall them every time you update or upgrade your kernel
14:45<DephNet[Paul]>Ovron, for the time being I just want my current, onboard, graphics to give me a resolution higher than 1024*768, but I dont know who the graphics are by
14:45-!-a|newkirk[assoc] [] has joined #linode
14:45-!-Tony [] has joined #linode
14:46<DephNet[Paul]>oh well, never mind, only about 3 or 4 weeks before I get a new card
14:46<Boohemian>where are the optimizing guides for apache and mysql on i can't recall how to call upon the bot in here... is it ?optimize - i dunno. but someone once sent me to those links from #linode to optimize mysql and apache because i was having memory issues... i searched on for 'mysql optimization' to no avail...
14:46<@pparadis>Boohemian: the optimization stuff is under troubleshooting
14:46<Boohemian>jed: fwiw, janitors at universities make great money. here they start at $22/hr (food service cashiers start at $19/hr), get great benefits including health care, 401(k) matching, pension, etc
14:46<Boohemian>so not the worst gig in the world
14:46<Boohemian>pparadis: thx
14:48-!-Tony2 [~Tony@] has joined #linode
14:48<@pparadis>Boohemian: we do require that copyright for contributions be assigned to us, but contributors retain credit, and they're free to post unaltered versions of the guide elsewhere.
14:48<Ovron>Blizzcon just streamed some D3 - looks hawt!
14:48<Ovron>(Diablo 3, for the uninitiated)
14:49<swaj>can't watch it til I go home tonight :(
14:49<Boohemian>pparadis: okay. is a link required to be at whatever place i publish it elsewhere back to stating linode owns this guide?
14:49<swaj>I hope they'll let you watch previous content, and not just live stuff
14:49<marius>Interesting, I just found out that on 32bit systems, java cna't utilize more then 2gb ram...anyone know if there's any truth to this?
14:49<Tony2>Hi Guys, I need some help. I just added a new ip address and after I reboot and mysql cant start anymore. Anyone here can help?
14:49<Boohemian>urgh, what do you call it when your server keeps crashing because of memory issues? for the life of me, i can't recall
14:49<@pparadis>Boohemian: everything we publish in the library is licensed as
14:50<@pparadis>Boohemian: OOMing
14:50<sirpengi>Boohemian: it's called "running out of memory"
14:50-!-Cromulent [] has joined #linode
14:50<swaj>memory starvation?
14:50<@caker>it's called: chasing the dragon
14:51-!-Tony [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
14:51<@irgeek>Boohemian: I think that's the link you were looking for.
14:51<hobot>all I want to know is if d3 is pay to play
14:52<swaj>nah, I doubt it.
14:52<swaj>it's not an MMO
14:52-!-Tony2 [~Tony@] has quit []
14:52<hobot>I played the heck out of d2 and lod when I was a babe
14:53<marius>I'm getting D3 when it comes
14:53<swaj>is the blizzcon streaming capable of replaying stuff? Like can I watch stuff from earlier today?
14:53<marius>No doubt about it
14:53<sirpengi>oh, you guys are talking about diablo
14:53<marius>swaj: nope
14:53<swaj>man that's fail :(
14:53<Talman>You watch it.
14:53<Talman>Or you don't.
14:53<Talman>There is no replay!
14:53<marius>last year when they revealed cataclysm there was a bug in their stream so non-premiums could watch it
14:53<marius>then they fixed it, so nobody dared leave the page, haha
14:54<swaj>I purchased the virtual ticket
14:54<marius>I didn't
14:54<marius>it's not like the pc gaming sites arne't flowing with on the fly updates any way
14:54<hobot>I like tenacious d but virtual ticket r u srs lol, its an advertisement
14:54<hobot>they should pay m to watch it
14:55-!-message144 [] has joined #linode
14:55<marius>tenacious d?
14:56<@pparadis>MIND BULLETS
14:57<marius>I know who they are
14:57<marius>I just wondered what the relevance was
14:57<swaj>they're putting on a mini concert at blizzcon
14:57<hobot>they booked them basically
14:57<hobot>that is the relevance
14:57<hobot>if it was just pay to watch a live steam of tenacious d I would be more likely to pay for it
14:58<marius>not enough WOW factor this year
14:58<Ovron>So WoW is getting another hero class, DEMON HUNTER. Oh noes.
14:58<marius>last year I was so excited for D3 waiting on the new classes etc
14:58-!-cats [] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
14:59<swaj>not in cataclysm
15:00<hobot>also I would not watch a wow presentation for money
15:00<hobot>wow is garbage
15:00<@jed>wow is a financial achievement
15:01<@jed>and an oddly fun game, but one that I do not allow to siphon my time any longer
15:01<amitz>unlike minecraft, eh? ;-)
15:01<Ovron>It was fun, but enough is enough, for my part.
15:03<amitz>marius: if I get it correctly, no single process in 32 bit can have more than 2.x GB memory.
15:04<pwnguin>i tried minecraft ages ago, but didnt find it interesting
15:04<pwnguin>and from what i can tell, this is a good thing
15:04<mwalling>jed: because you're spending all your time playing minecraft, i know
15:05<pwnguin>caker: some of that is reserved to address devices and OS regions
15:06<pwnguin>ie, your video card is mapped to like FFFFFF00x-FFFFFFFFF or something like that
15:06<@caker>I was responding to max process address space under 32 bits
15:06<pwnguin>and im clarifying that you're wrong
15:06<@caker>what does a processes address space have to do with a video card?
15:07<pwnguin>im not quite sure, but windows only allows for 2 gb of address space, and linux defaults to 3
15:07<Ovron>since when?
15:08<Ovron>Hold on, I will just go tell my processes that use 16GB that they can't :(
15:08<@jed>Oct22 15:03:51 < amitz> marius: if I get it correctly, no single process in 32 bit
15:08<pwnguin>Ovron: pay attention
15:08<Ovron>pwnguin: I am sorry, I am too busy appreciating capslockday in another channel since people here don't :D
15:08<@jed>CAPS LOCK DAY!
15:10<@jed>glad ubuntu is in that url
15:10<@jed>because that makes a difference
15:10-!-shaiweinstein [] has joined #linode
15:10<pwnguin>if the answer was linux
15:10<swaj>crazy d3 trailer
15:10<shaiweinstein>is it possible to get promotion code?
15:10<pwnguin>you'd have to figure out which version of linux, and if you custom complied the kernel, and which kernel defines
15:11<@jed>that question's answers are full of durp
15:12<pwnguin>feel free to find a better citation
15:12<Karrde>ubuntu is a art
15:12<pwnguin>im not quite sure why the OS is mapped into process address space
15:12<@jed>the kernel, you mean?
15:13-!-shaiweinstein is now known as shai
15:14<pwnguin>i suppose for the most part the OS has to be in memory at all times anyways
15:14<pwnguin>you dont want to page out the pager!
15:14<Ovron>OOMer OOMing itself?
15:15<sirpengi>OS = kernel = guinea pigs, they're all the same
15:15-!-Cromulent [] has quit [Quit: Cromulent]
15:16<swaj>watching blizzcon live on my droid. Mobile flash is a little laggy, but the audio works well
15:17-!-dajhorn [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
15:17-!-initself [] has quit [Quit: leaving]
15:17-!-MetaCosm [] has joined #linode
15:18-!-initself [] has joined #linode
15:18<Ovron>your droid needs more jiggawatts
15:18-!-EAS [] has joined #linode
15:18-!-MetaCosm [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
15:21<Talman>The new Droid Incredible has 1.2 jiggawatts of pixel bending power.
15:21-!-ofus_ [] has joined #linode
15:22-!-MetaCosm [] has joined #linode
15:22<linbot>New news from forums: [SOLVED] Google Apps cannot verify. What am I doing wrong? in Email/SMTP Related Forum <>
15:22-!-ktabic [] has quit [Quit: I'm a professionally trainined computer scientist. That is to say, I am poorly educated]
15:24-!-mmginc [] has joined #linode
15:24<Ovron>The Demon Hunter for Diablo3 look sweet.
15:25-!-mmginc [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
15:25<Ovron>Crossbows and pistols dualwielder. Dual wielding crossbows, how badass isn't that?
15:26-!-ktabic [] has joined #linode
15:26<opello>pwnguin: btw,
15:26<mwalling>does that cost $75?
15:26*mwalling hides
15:27<pwnguin>opello: right, but what's the purpose of kernel mode virtual address space?
15:27<mwalling>pwnguin: old minecraft sucks compared to new minecraft
15:27<opello>/3G allows applications to use up to 3gb of virtual address space
15:28<opello>not "windows only allows 2gb"
15:28<pwnguin>i know that
15:28<opello>it's default state is as such, however
15:28-!-ofus [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
15:28-!-ziplock [] has joined #linode
15:28<DrJ>does linode do any special config/pricing beyond what's on their site?
15:28<opello>mwalling: always stirring ye olde pot :p
15:29<Talman>DrJ: Something like that.
15:29<mwalling>DrJ: there are plans up to 20gig on
15:29<mwalling>DrJ: beyond that i dont think they do anything
15:29<Talman>What kind of special pricing you talking about? Like "I need an inbetween" or "I need a rack with 1TB storage."
15:30<@tasaro>DrJ: there are larger plans on the signup page, and you can add individual resources to a current plan (but in most cases it is more economical to simply upgrade to the next plan level)
15:30*pwnguin gets a prepayment discount
15:30<Talman>tasaro, I need 1 ZB storage space. How much will that cost at linode?
15:32-!-ziplock_ [] has joined #linode
15:33<linbot>New news from forums: Inbox - mutt/mailx shows email, squirrelmail doesn't. Halp. in Email/SMTP Related Forum <>
15:34<ziplock_>Hi, I'm a long time linode user and recently purchased a new linode to accompany my original one. On the FAQ page it mentions a back-end network I can use since my linodes are at the same facility but I can't find any info on how to do this.
15:34-!-ziplock [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
15:35<mwalling>!library private ip
15:35<linbot>mwalling: 1. Use dig to Perform Manual DNS Queries ( - 2. Linux Static IP Configuration ( - 3. Control Network Traffic with iptables (
15:36<mwalling>ziplock_: basicly, turn on the private IP on both linodes, then reboot them both (important step and commonly missed)
15:36<sirpengi>you get the private IP from you panel
15:36-!-Talman|Netbook[Ayanami] [~Talman|] has joined #linode
15:36<mwalling>ziplock_: from there, you have access to the network in each datacenter and can talk between your two nodes
15:36<sirpengi>according to that page
15:37<ziplock_>ok I'll look for that. Also, I tried to join the forum but it's asking me to log in so I can register. I can't log in because I'm not registered.... heh
15:37<mwalling>ziplock_: read the prompt where its telling you to log in
15:37<Talman|Netbook[Ayanami]>Oh, you can register on the forums. Its seperate from a linode acount.
15:37<sirpengi>read it carefully
15:37<ziplock_>the text is cut off in mid sentence
15:37<mwalling>i think it is no/spam
15:37<ziplock_>right, I'm trying to register to the forums but the register link says I must log in to register
15:37<mwalling>for the user/pass
15:37<mwalling>like it says in the prompt
15:37<Talman|Netbook[Ayanami]>Yes, you have to defeat the turing test.
15:38<mwalling>ziplock_: anyone in that datacenter can talk to anyone else in the datacenter, so you might want to do some simple source/destination firewalling
15:38<ziplock_>ok, I'll try that thanaks. the prompt is cut off and doesn't say no/spam in my display
15:38<linbot>New news from forums: backup questions (db WAL, dump, tar, jets3t syncronize) in General Discussion <>
15:38<Talman|Netbook[Ayanami]>Prove your humanity, ziplock.
15:38<sirpengi>what browser are you using?
15:38<Tiven>chrome 4 life
15:38<Talman|Netbook[Ayanami]>what's your screen resolution?
15:38<Ovron>and DPI settings?
15:38<mwalling>ziplock_: i'm looking at it now in FF, i've got a 800x300 window that displays the whole realm name
15:38<Talman|Netbook[Ayanami]>(Obviously Ayanami is a netbook, 1024x600)
15:39<mwalling>Talman|Netbook[Ayanami]: shorter nick kthx?
15:39<Ovron>./nick Ovron|workstation|notnamedyet
15:39<Talman|Netbook[Ayanami]>But I like my nick. :(
15:39<Talman|Netbook[Ayanami]>Ovron just wants to cattle prod us all. :(
15:39-!-Tiven is now known as Tiven|workstation|Tifa
15:39-!-Tiven|workstation|Tifa is now known as Tiven|workstation[Tifa]
15:40<Talman|Netbook[Ayanami]>You forgot to capitalize the W.
15:40<Tiven|workstation[Tifa]>hello guys
15:40<Tiven|workstation[Tifa]>o snap
15:40<Talman|Netbook[Ayanami]>Hello Tiven|workstation[Tifa].
15:40-!-Tiven|workstation[Tifa] is now known as Tiven|Workstation[Tifa]
15:40<Talman|Netbook[Ayanami]>So, IRC in Empathy is weird.
15:41-!-Talman|Netbook[Ayanami] is now known as Talman[Ayanami]
15:41<Ovron>irssi, represent!
15:41<Talman[Ayanami]>Because mwalling has endured space tubes, I will shorten the nick.
15:41-!-eighty4 [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
15:41<Talman[Ayanami]>irssi requires effort.
15:41<mwalling>lies even
15:41<sirpengi>weechat > irssi
15:42-!-eighty4 [] has joined #linode
15:42<Tiven|Workstation[Tifa]>irssi is cool
15:42<Talman[Ayanami]>Its also not GUI. It doesn't blend with my GNOMEs or dock with my thingy.
15:42<Tiven|Workstation[Tifa]>i run irssi on my linode and just connect notebook and desktop and everything on irssi's proxy
15:42<Tiven|Workstation[Tifa]>and it's chill y0
15:42<Talman[Ayanami]>Its still not GUI.
15:42<mwalling>Talman[Ayanami]: but Terminal is a GUI
15:43<mwalling>and irssi runs in Terminal
15:43<Talman[Ayanami]>irssi won't hit up my notification applet. :(
15:43<Talman[Ayanami]>I want to have the pretty stuff.
15:43<Talman[Ayanami]>This is ubuntu. I want to have the pretty stuff.
15:44<Tiven|Workstation[Tifa]>set up irssi's proxy
15:44<Tiven|Workstation[Tifa]>and just use some linux irc client then
15:44<Ovron>can you guys de-gay your nicks? ;|
15:44<Talman[Ayanami]>There is nothing homosexual about my nick.
15:44<Ovron>colourful, cheerful
15:44<Talman[Ayanami]>Then no, I like having a cheerful nick.
15:44<Ovron>The homosexuals stole the word.
15:45<Talman[Ayanami]>Tiven|Workstation[Tifa]: I am only 12 years old, what is a irssi proxy?
15:45<ziplock_>Thanks, I see how now
15:45-!-cats [] has joined #linode
15:46<Talman[Ayanami]>Alternately, your beliefs intrigue me and I would like to know more. What buttons do I push for the internet to tell me how?
15:46<Ovron>screen+irssi om nom
15:46-!-ziplock_ [] has quit []
15:47<mwalling>!f f0rked screen irssi
15:47<linbot>mwalling: Screw you
15:47<Talman[Ayanami]>I don't think it likes you.
15:47<Tiven|Workstation[Tifa]>talman br0
15:47<Tiven|Workstation[Tifa]>irssi acts like a server
15:48<Tiven|Workstation[Tifa]>and you can connect on it using irc clients
15:48<Talman[Ayanami]>You aren't going to try to give me a Smirnoff Ice, are you?
15:48<Tiven|Workstation[Tifa]>what about Vodka
15:48<Tiven|Workstation[Tifa]>i take that back
15:48<Tiven|Workstation[Tifa]>or Whiskey?
15:48<Talman[Ayanami]>you called me bro. ;(
15:48<Talman[Ayanami]>Check his backpack for a Gamecube and black dildo.
15:49<Talman[Ayanami]>WHich is the one that would do .
15:49-!-zivester [] has joined #linode
15:50<Tiven|Workstation[Tifa]> proxy
15:50-!-Tiven|Workstation[Tifa] is now known as DanielJackson
15:52<Talman[Ayanami]>One day, maybe.
15:52-!-juque [] has joined #linode
15:52<juque>hi there
15:53<Talman[Ayanami]>It is not. Stop that, DanielJackson.
15:53<Talman[Ayanami]>Hello! Welcome to #Linode! People with a @ are employees of Linode. I am not, but will be happy to sell you things anyway.
15:53<DanielJackson>i can sell you stargates
15:53-!-DanielJackson is now known as Tiven
15:53<Tiven>talman, it is btw
15:54<Talman[Ayanami]>Oh, whoever created that die in a fire.
15:54<sirpengi>THE WIKI NEVER LIES:
15:55<Ovron>DEAL WITH IT
15:55<Talman[Ayanami]>I do not sell stargates or stargate accessories.
15:55<juque>how can i set up postfix (step by step pls)
15:55<Talman[Ayanami]>!library postfix
15:56<Talman[Ayanami]>Linbot, you rusty bucket of bolts, I said !library, not !Ayanami.
15:56<Talman[Ayanami]>Linbot, library postfix
15:56<Talman[Ayanami]>Ask the fucking bot, juque, has step by step on postfix and exim installs for all distros.
15:58<Ovron>Even slackware?
15:58<sirpengi>is the bot down?
15:58<linbot>sirpengi: Point (0.7136685791, 0.2800694733) is within the circle. Running total: 4019/5064 (pi is about 3.1745655608)
15:58<sirpengi>!library postfix
15:58<linbot>sirpengi: 1. Host Email with Postfix, Courier and MySQL on Ubuntu 9.10 (Karmic) ( - 2. Host Email with Postfix, Courier and MySQL on Debian 5 (Lenny) ( - 3. Host Email with Postfix, Courier and MySQL on Ubuntu 9.04 (Jaunty) (
15:58<Ovron>The bot just ignores him, sweet
15:58<Talman[Ayanami]>It hates the bracket around my name.
15:58-!-Talman[Ayanami] is now known as Talman|Ayanami
15:58<sirpengi>linbot needs a new lexer
15:59<Ovron>Linbot: what is the weather in malmö, sweden?
15:59<Ovron>it also need a new human input interpretation code
15:59<Talman|Ayanami>!weather 55125
15:59<Talman|Ayanami>IT doesn't do zip codes, I guess.
16:00<Ovron>!weather 55125
16:00<Ovron>aww, thought it was just ignoring you ;)
16:02<Yaakov>!weather 55125
16:02<linbot>Yaakov: Eh, kinda crummy... but better than 07122.
16:02<Yaakov>Seems to work for me.
16:02<Talman|Ayanami>!weather 55125
16:02<Ovron>Cute Yaakov, cute. ;)
16:02<Talman|Ayanami>Linbot reports it could not find weather information
16:02<sirpengi>I think it takes airport codes
16:03<sirpengi>!weather HNL
16:03<Talman|Ayanami>!weather ORD
16:03<mwalling>!weather 12334
16:03<Ovron>So Linbot, are you in fact just ignoring Talman?
16:03<Talman|Ayanami>500 error!
16:03<mwalling>!weather 12345
16:03<Yaakov>!wx kord
16:03<linbot>Yaakov: [metar] OBS at KORD: 62.6F/17C, visibility 10 miles, wind 8.06 mph (altimeter: 30.07) [KORD 221951Z 21007KT 10SM FEW250 17/M03 A3007 RMK AO2 SLP184 T01671028]
16:03<mwalling>!wx 12345
16:03<Talman|Ayanami>!wx 55125
16:03<linbot>mwalling: [metar] 12345: not found
16:03<linbot>Talman|Ayanami: [metar] 55125: not found
16:03<Talman|Ayanami>Need METAR code,
16:03<mwalling>oh, WX wants metar
16:04<Yaakov>!wx 12345
16:04<linbot>Yaakov: 6789... TEN, baby!
16:04<mwalling>hey, its a valid USPS zip code
16:04<Tiven>Railworks 2 on steam with all the DLCs : 662 euros
16:04<Ovron>!wx ESMS
16:04<linbot>Ovron: [metar] OBS at ESMS: 39.2F/04C, visibility 8000 miles, wind 2.30 mph (altimeter: 29.82528283) [ESMS 221950Z VRB02KT 8000 -RA FEW022 SCT032 04/04 Q1010]
16:04<mwalling>!wx KSCH
16:04<linbot>mwalling: [metar] OBS at KSCH: 46.4F/08C, visibility 15 miles, wind 13.81 mph (altimeter: 29.98) [KSCH 221952Z 27012G24KT 15SM BKN060 08/M07 A2998]
16:04<Ovron>4C, brrrrr cold
16:05<Tiven>!wx ATH
16:05<linbot>Tiven: [metar] ATH: not found
16:05<Tiven>!wx 13451
16:05<linbot>Tiven: [metar] 13451: not found
16:06*GLaDOSDan is listening to: "On Mercury" by "Red Hot Chili Peppers" from the album "By The Way" at 1083 kbps
16:06<GLaDOSDan>wrong channel
16:07<Yaakov>Hey, GLaDOSDan, we don't care how many kbps your are listening to!
16:07-!-jspiros [] has quit [Quit: leaving]
16:07<GLaDOSDan>e-peen in " = bitrate / 10
16:07-!-jspiros [jspiros@2001:470:1f07:f30::1] has joined #linode
16:09<Yaakov>Anything under 500 gigasamples per second is just noise.
16:12<Tiven>anything that is dynamic compressed is noise
16:12<Tiven>(pretty much most nowadays stuff?)
16:12-!-Damian [~Damian@] has joined #linode
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16:35<Talman|Ayanami>someone reminded me, just installed chromium on this ubuntu netbook.
16:36-!-a|newkirk[assoc] [] has quit [Quit: HydraIRC -> <- IRC with a difference]
16:41-!-VictorVincent [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
16:42-!-EAS [] has quit [Quit: EAS]
16:44-!-loxs [] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
16:56<Talman|Ayanami>GIVE MANMEAT HIS RUPEES.
16:59<Friction>i knew that facebook movie was gonna make me jealous
17:01<Tiven>what facebook movie?
17:01-!-orudie [] has quit [Quit: Нада пачилать]
17:01<Friction>the social network
17:01<linbot>New news from forums: backup questions (db WAL, dump, tar, jets3t synchronize) in General Discussion <>
17:02<Talman>"I would be willing to pay a one time fee like 10 dollars to setup my linode."
17:02<Friction>it's how some guy with half a brain and a guy with a bottomless bank account made facebook
17:02<Talman>I'm sure VPS.NET does a throuough job of tweaking your LAMP stack for 10 bucks.
17:02<Talman>i.e. 'We have stackscripts, but you can't see them, and for 10 dollars extra we run one on your box."
17:03<Friction>get the hell off my starship
17:03<Tiven>they charge for stackscripts?
17:03<Talman>They charge a setup fee.
17:03<Tiven>same like u siad
17:03<Tiven>for crying out loud :S
17:04<Talman>I figure that a person who knows what they're doing deploying a LAMP stack and tweaking it (maybe not even using the A in LAMP) is worth about 75-100 an hour.
17:04<Talman>That's sysadmin work.
17:04-!-test [] has joined #linode
17:06<HoopyCat>i just tweaked a LAMP problem
17:07<Talman|Ayanami>Are you worth 75 dollars an hour?
17:07<HoopyCat>i'm not sure, but i probably saved about that much
17:08-!-test [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:09<sirpengi>most lamp issues are because of bad bulbs
17:10<HoopyCat>yeah... i just borrowed a bulb from a particularly unusual and relatively minor warning lamp
17:10-!-Ubuntuisloved4 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:11<hobot>yep, lets switch over to cfl
17:11-!-arby [] has joined #linode
17:11<HoopyCat>i think they went to LEDs in 2004, actually
17:12-!-A-KO [] has joined #linode
17:12<Talman|Ayanami>I MISS HOMESTAR RUNNER.
17:12<arby>Looking for 'experience talking' ... do folks here use/trust "Backup Service"? I ask, as the one time I needed it, it failed, and, afaict, there's no logs that tell me "it's working". Problem's will get fixed -- eventually, but I'm interested in "Has it worked when you needed it?"
17:13<sirpengi>hows did it fail?
17:13<Talman|Ayanami>I do not use the Linode Backup System.
17:14<arby>sirpengi: I was completely unable to restore any volume/partition from any available backup ... fortunately, i *did* have offsite backup ...
17:14<@caker>arby: when was this?
17:14<@pparadis>i use it on my personal linodes. when did you experience this issue? when it was in beta?
17:14<sirpengi>arby: was there a reason given? how did it fail?
17:14<arby>caker tid=252344
17:15<@caker>ah, you were using an LVM formatted partition :/
17:16<sirpengi>it's pretty specific that those don't work with the backup
17:16<pharaun>oh? how come lvm does not work on the backup ?
17:16<sirpengi>I don't use the backup service and even I know that
17:16<pharaun>you guys do file based backup not image based ?
17:17<arby>caker: yes, on only ONE of the partitions. (1) yes, i now know that they're not backed up, (2) no notice was ever given that the volume was not being backed up, and (3) no notice was ever given that ththe REST of the non-LVM vols were ALSO horked
17:17<pharaun>sirpengi: uh?
17:17<jrguitar21>By typing /msg linbot commands… i see the first few and a message saying 11 more messages. how do i get linbot to tell me the rest of his commands?
17:17<HoopyCat>jrguitar21: more
17:17<Talman|Ayanami>I'm only 12 years old and what is LVM?
17:17<jrguitar21>HoopyCat: thx
17:18<pharaun>HoopyCat: aha gotcha, was wondering if it was file based, it sounded like it
17:18<Tiven>Talman why do you relate age with knowledge ?
17:18<HoopyCat>pharaun: nod... image-based would be awkward
17:19<pharaun>HoopyCat: heh depends, i do, do image based backups sometime but yeah file backups is usually better
17:19<Talman|Ayanami>Tiven: Its a meme.
17:19<Talman|Ayanami>I'm only 12 and what is a meme?
17:19<Tiven>I'm only 12 and what is what is a meme?
17:19<@caker>arby: sorry man - we'll make this right. I'll be following up with the backup lead on this... thanks for the heads up
17:20<Talman|Ayanami>caker: You can recover LVM backups?
17:20<Yaakov>caker: You lovely man, hello.
17:20<Tiven>I'm only 19 but what is LVM ?
17:20<@caker>hello, Yaakov
17:20<@caker>The goog, it knows
17:20<Talman|Ayanami>Actually, I guess my question is: Does the backup manager detect LVM setups and go "Um, very no."
17:20<HoopyCat>Talman|Ayanami: apparently not yet :-)
17:21<arby>caker: thx. like i said, i know it'll get fixed. thax for the diligence. i'm just trying to get a sense of what i can/should depende on -- basically, 'best linode practices'. i'd prefer that @LinodeBackup was part of that strategy, of course
17:21<@caker>it should.
17:21<Talman|Ayanami>He could of forced it. :)
17:22<Talman|Ayanami>I don't think I've even used LVM.
17:22-!-Damian [~Damian@] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep]
17:23<HoopyCat>arby: i usually maintain two backups, one on-site, another off-site (or two off-site if on-site isn't feasible)... i do trust the linode backup service as the on-site, but i've also run a couple restores
17:23<arby>caker as always, if any more info is needed from me, please request @ticket.
17:23<@caker>imo, the more prudent setup would be: Linode backups for fast restores and less admin time overhead, and another backup (off-site) for when bad things happen
17:24<@caker>arby: great - thanks
17:26<arby>HoopyCat: yeah, that's the sensible thing i figured. caker fwiw, i'd considered, at least initially, the multiple @Linode backups _as_ my "for when bad things happen" alternative -- i.e., the "at least I'll lose ONLY 2-weeks" thinking. It was a bit -- disconcerting -- to (almost) lose it all. Thank goodness for good Scotch!
17:27<HoopyCat>the linode backups are also handy for doing a clone onto a fresh filesystem without taking down the clonee... i've had reasonable luck with duplicating a hot image, but you end up with a dirty filesystem and duplicate uuids and...
17:28<arby>HoopyCat: "doing a clone onto a fresh filesystem" is how I discovered that the backups were hosed! ;-)
17:28<arby>I'd spun up a 2nd Linode. If I'd wiped my ONLY Linode on the presumption that I coulda restored, well ... different story
17:29<arby>hence asking the "big brains" in here what they do!
17:29<HoopyCat>arby: you have a rather pedestrian definition of "bad things" :-) gas pedal wedges under floor mat of a tanker full of jet fuel, slams into the datacenter --> bad things
17:30<HoopyCat>speaking of which, time to see if this lamp works
17:30<arby>HoopyCat: no, "Wife's pictures from nephew's graduation that had been transferred, temporarily, to that Linode -- suddenly gone" --> BAD THING!!
17:30*arby mutters .... "Tanker full of jet fule" by comparison ... pshaw!
17:32<Ovron>HoopyCat: I hope it is a low energy one, SAVE THE PLANET!
17:32-!-jack79 [] has quit [Quit: jack79]
17:37-!-Pyromancer [~pyromance@2001:470:899a:0:6ef0:49ff:fe59:2604] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:38<Talman|Ayanami>off-site, multiple redundant copies.
17:40<Talman|Ayanami>Oh. According to the ditz manager at my bank. You can print MICR numbers on inkjet.
17:40<Talman|Ayanami>Anyone think this is actually true?
17:42<sirpengi>don't you just need special ink?
17:42<arby>Talman|Ayanami: Sure. We use VersaInk-nano
17:43<Talman|Ayanami>no,no, without MICR cartridge.
17:43<Talman|Ayanami>She said a regular ink cartridge is fine, it just has to be black ink.
17:44<arby>um, no, it has to be MICR ANSI-Compliant ink
17:44<Talman|Ayanami>that's what I thought.
17:45-!-Pyromancer [] has joined #linode
17:45<arby>MICR, by definition, is magnetic ink. If her bank is using an optical scanning tech, that's a different story. But I do not know whether that's a Fed-approved tech'y.
17:46<Talman|Ayanami>I think she's an idiot.
17:47<arby>you might want to remove your money before pointing that out
17:51-!-gmcharlt [] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep]
17:53<linbot>New news from forums: Short session timeout on forums in Feature Request/Bug Report <>
17:53<sirpengi>I dunno, you can take a photo of your checks to deposit them nowadays
17:53<HoopyCat>nuts... "i'll switch the burned-out bulb with the one to the left of it" -> different when i'm looking at the back of it
17:54<arby>sirpengi: now that's a good point. still, MICR is MICR. if it's not magnetic ink compliant, then it's simply a different standard.
17:55<HoopyCat>and i've done standard black ink when printing checks before... not recently tho (why would i?!)
17:55-!-libertiy [] has quit [Quit: libertiy]
17:56-!-bigjocker [~ngranek@] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:56<arby>HoopyCat: sigh. yes, but they were not readable by a MICR reader, right? as for "why would I" ... still helps in 'other' parts of the world.
17:57<HoopyCat>arby: probably not, but that's not my problem ;-)
17:58-!-maku is now known as maku`off
17:59-!-tharkun [~0@] has left #linode []
18:00-!-atula [~atula@] has quit [Quit: Goodbye]
18:00<arby>HoopyCat: what? no call for animatronic-humidifier deployments from Nairobi of late?
18:01<arby>er, de-humidifier
18:02-!-ojacobson [~ojacobson@] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
18:04<HoopyCat>arby: as an end user of paper checks, is there any difference to me if it is MICR sans magnetic ink? (i'm not qualified in arguing either way, just plain ol' curious)
18:06-!-ktabic [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:06<arby>HoopyCat: MICR *is* magetic ink ( MICR readers are magentic ink readers. No magnetic ink, not MICR. iiuc, ymmv, etc.
18:07<arby>HoopyCat: as an end-user .... ah, sry. Likley not, unless your bank tries to read it in a MICR reader, and it spits it out as invalid/unreadable, and they knock you down and ties your hands with cable ties ....
18:08<arby>then no, it shouldn't. IMNAB.
18:08<arby>uh, IANAB
18:08<HoopyCat>arby: as an end user of paper checks, is there any difference to me if the MICR characters are replaced with optically-identical non-magnetic black ink in the E-13B font? (i'm not qualified in arguing either way, just plain ol' curious)
18:08*HoopyCat tries to word it more precisely
18:09-!-atula [~atula@] has joined #linode
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18:10<arby>HoopyCat: thx for writing it more slowly, too. i'm not a fast reader. again, same answer. it's only a problem if your bank says it's a problem. i've only ever had any issues with non-standard (read: "foreign issued") checks @ attempt to deposit to a Merchant bank account. If the sums are bigger-than-nickels, they tend to be a bit more finicky ...
18:11<arby>Of course, you can always go to Niagara-on-the-Lake and properly launder your money THERE!
18:12<HoopyCat>The futuristic-looking black characters, which I formerly scanned, magnetized me: that is, a body of such sensible qualities was, at that time, endued with such secret powers; but does it follow, that other futuristic-looking black characters must also magnetized me at another time, and that like sensible qualities must always be attended with like secret powers?
18:12<HoopyCat>(my advice: never accept a personal check from david hume)
18:12<arby>FFS, it's a Friday -- NO DEEP THOUGHT required!
18:13<A-KO>So it's interesting with the US govt and other govts looking at tightening grips on what companies can do with user data.
18:13<A-KO>I wonder how long that lasts
18:13<A-KO>probably not very long
18:13<HoopyCat>arby: nod, i figure "not being magnetic ink in the first place" is indistinguishable from "dammit this stupid machine is pissing me off" for the casual check processing
18:13-!-Cromulent [] has joined #linode
18:13*arby wonders what an Empricist knows about ink-jet technology, anyway
18:14<Friction>i'm never gonna make it big. i'm not mentally disabled enough :(
18:14<HoopyCat>arby: prick me, do i not... leak?
18:14<A-KO>Friction: oh tell me about that one
18:14<arby>HoopyCat: Data?
18:14<A-KO>Friction: We had a project manager just promoted to "senior project manager blah blah blah"
18:14<A-KO>the guy's a complete moron
18:14<A-KO>In fact
18:14<A-KO>he's the sr. project manager of the whole project
18:14-!-DephNet[Paul] [] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
18:14-!-ktabic [] has joined #linode
18:14<Friction>my dad always goes on about people like that
18:14<A-KO>They're fucking idiots
18:14<A-KO>I'm sorry
18:15<A-KO>Project Managers are not employees, they have no skills
18:15<Friction>they get all the people under them to do their work
18:15<A-KO>They're completely worthless and leeches to a business
18:15<A-KO>because they provide nothing
18:15<A-KO>Project Leads, Technical Leads, they bring something to the table.
18:15<arby>HoopyCat: re: " is indistinguishable from" .... ever been in a bank in Frankfurt, Germany near closing time?
18:15<A-KO>but a Project Manager who understands fuck all about what it is they're managing
18:15<@caker>There's a little black on the sun today
18:15<arby>Things there are NOT going to go your way, I'm afraid ...
18:16<HoopyCat>arby: androids are probably very likely to be empiricists
18:16<arby>HoopyCat: depends on the CPU manufacturer, i s'pose ...
18:16<HoopyCat>arby: nope... i usually stick with my friendly neighborhood credit union
18:16-!-materdaddy [] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat]
18:17<arby>caker: um, have you, perchance, been _staring_ at the sun?
18:17<arby>(hint: stare at the wall ... do you still see the spot?)
18:20<HoopyCat>afk, fooood
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18:25<linbot>New news from forums: poor performance on TCP/IP socket (Ubuntu Lucid) on Linode in Linux Networking <>
18:26<arby>so, with all this mainstream-press-winging about "the IPv4 sky is falling" ... semi-seriously (i know, a lot to ask in here ....), what are "we'uns" supposed to actually (be preparing to) do about it? other than HE tunnels, who's actually got a 6-bone?
18:28<Friction>yeh, lets stop talking about it and get on with it!
18:31-!-thelongmile [] has joined #linode
18:31<arby>Friction: it depends on what your definition of "it" is ....
18:31-!-juque [] has quit [Quit: juque]
18:31<thelongmile>Hey all, is anyone else getting really really really slow SSH connections?
18:32-!-DesertPanther_ [~Khalid@] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
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18:32<thelongmile>I've tried on multiple SSH connections with multiple machines, internet providers, but the SSH I'm getting is horrendously slow, and there appears to be no wierd usage on the network card of the linode, nothing that would indicate it running slowly
18:33<thelongmile>I'm wondering if this is something on the linode side?
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18:44<encode>thelongmile: run an mtr
18:44<linbot>mtr combines the functionality of traceroute and ping into one easy to use tool, and the output can be useful for determining where the source of a problem is. It can be downloaded from or for Windows. MTR summaries can be retrieved in-channel using the command !mtr-CITY where CITY is fremont, atlanta, newark, dallas or london.
18:44<encode>see if there is a large amount of packet loss somewhere
18:44<encode>that's the usual cause for ssh running slowly
18:45<encode>provided neither your internet connection nor your linode are using most of their bandwidth
18:45<thelongmile>just looking at it now
18:45<thelongmile>nah no usage at all
18:45<encode>for comparison, I'm using irc via my linode
18:45<encode>and have virtually no lag
18:46<encode>(well, around 200ms, but that's because i'm in australia and my linode is over the other side of the world)
18:46<thelongmile>well I'm running plain old MTR on the linode, ZERO packet loss, sent 109
18:47<encode>mtr to where? your home connection?
18:47<encode>try running it from your machine to the linode
18:48<thelongmile>ok, lemme download it
18:48<thelongmile>ah bugger, damn thing isn't working very well
18:48<thelongmile>as in the application, just searching for another
18:49<thelongmile>bah, try finding mtr for Mac without downloading mac the ripper :P
18:51-!-arooni-mobile_____ [~arooni-mo@] has joined #linode
18:52<@caker>unzip it, sudo ./mtr <target>
18:52<thelongmile>yup thats the one I was using, kept crashing
18:52*pparadis uses mtr from macports (along with a bunch of other stuff from macports, actually)
18:53<arby>thelongmile: ^^^ pparadis, or from fink proj as well
18:54<thelongmile>never seen that before, what a fantastic little tool
18:55<@pparadis>it's pretty handy for easily installing and maintaining all the bsd/linux stuff that doesn't come stock with mac os x
18:55<thelongmile>although i should probably install xcode next
18:56*arby (ex Mac fanatic) found that bsd/linux were best for "easily installing and maintaining all the bsd/linux stuff that doesn't come stock with mac os x". donated Macs to the local library. end of an era. sigh.
18:57<@pparadis>eh, i just prefer using the macbook for desktop work. everything else is linux these days.
18:58<arby>my (remaining) MacBook (it's a Ti-book! will be worth g'zillions someday ...) now runs Kubuntu.
18:59<arby>pparadis: throw OSX "in the drink"! after 3-4 months, the "pain of loss" will fade away, and you'll be able to do everything you need to on the Linux desktop! It *IS* after all "the year of Linux on the desktop", doncha kno!
19:00<@pparadis>i generally have a bunch of terminal windows open, so it's really not all *that* different. i actually migrated to mac after almost exclusively using linux on the desktop for several years.
19:00*arby understands. the "reality distortion field" has a very broad event horizon ....
19:01<@pparadis>it's quite true. that steve is just such a sexy man. those jeans totally do it for me, and i just can't help myself.
19:02<arby>I'm more fixated on the Black Turtleneck. Got my 1st exposure @ Oralce, back in the day. Once you've worn one, you never are quite the same ...
19:02-!-Talman|Ayanami [~Talman|] has quit [Read error: No route to host]
19:02<thelongmile>a black turtleneck? :P
19:02-!-Talman|Ayanami [~Talman|] has joined #linode
19:02<@pparadis>i mailed my special homemade music video for "touch myself" to 1 infinite loop, but all i got was a lousy restraining order.
19:03<@pparadis>steve did email me, though. unfortunately, he just told me how wrong i was.
19:03<@pparadis>off-key and all that.
19:03<arby>thelongmile: yes. be patient. someday, you will come to understand. look deeply into das blinken lichts ...
19:03<Talman|Ayanami>Hmm, what nick do I have.
19:03<arby>pparadis: Bill? BillGates? is that you?
19:04*pparadis runs
19:04<Talman|Ayanami>Thankfully, I have never emailed Steve Jobs.
19:04<thelongmile>I'm tempted to, just to see if he can understand Klingon
19:04<hobot>stevie is pretty clipped in his emails
19:04<Talman|Ayanami>He can. But he uses his strategic partnership with Google to do it.
19:05<Talman|Ayanami>I'm pretty clipped in my emails.
19:05<thelongmile>hobot: obviously trying to save the planet, why use twenty words when only one will do
19:05<hobot>yep, more like three
19:05<hobot>bt yeah
19:05<Talman|Ayanami>"I can't find a file I uploaded on my websight."
19:05<Talman|Ayanami>1. Please email
19:05<hobot>I like my response better
19:06<Talman|Ayanami>2. Pursuant to the Mainteance Agreement, requests cannot be handled if submitted to other email addresses.
19:06<Talman|Ayanami>3. Thank you.
19:06*arby was in the lobby ! "1" the other day .... so many damn monitors displaying real-time DL's of iPad/iPhone apps, you can get a suntan just standing there. Kinda got a Children-of-the-Corn/Lord-of-the-Flies vibe. Shudder.
19:06<thelongmile>"Steve, I thought you weren't going to do a netbook" "So?"
19:07<Talman|Ayanami>What do people use in Linux desktop for your email client?
19:07<thelongmile>I generally don't bother, webmail is doing reasonably well
19:08<sirpengi>it's either Evolution, Thunderbird, or Kmail
19:08<sirpengi>(in ascending order of goodness)
19:09<arby>sirpengi: +1 on the order
19:09<Talman|Ayanami>Evolution being the lowest?
19:09<Talman|Ayanami>But what if I don't like KDE. :(
19:09<sirpengi>then you must leave my presence
19:09<arby>Leave this #irc immediately?
19:09<arby>too slow ...
19:09<sirpengi>you don't need KDE for Kmail
19:09-!-ktabic [] has quit [Quit: I'm a professionally trainined computer scientist. That is to say, I am poorly educated]
19:10<sirpengi>you don't need guh-nome for Evolution
19:10<Talman|Ayanami>I like the little gnomes. :(
19:10*arby still is waiting for Vernors corp to sue their ass!
19:11<sirpengi>anyhow, it's all personal preference in the end. try it and see if you like it
19:11<sirpengi>(try them)
19:12<arby>sirpengi: tho, with next-gen Kontact/Kmail, _not_ having KDE with Akonadi integration will ... cost some capabilities
19:12-!-BarkerJr [BarkerJr@2002:1893:7426:1:d9c8:6eb:f3b2:cc42] has joined #linode
19:13<thelongmile>anyhooo, no lost packets
19:13<sirpengi>yeah, well, I mostly really liked how I was able to customize what my inbox looked like
19:14<sirpengi>lots of options for thread organization
19:14<sirpengi>like all KDE apps, you've got tons of customizations at your fingertips
19:16<arby>i'm running KDE 4.5.x, with latest PIM. as you say, customization is great. personal fav, atm, is the Akunambol integration -- connector to a local Funabmbol instance.
19:17<Talman|Ayanami>I'm kinda... afraid to put KDE on a netbook.
19:18<arby>Talman|Ayanami: wokrs brilliantly, actually.
19:18<sirpengi>Talman|Ayanami: what specs you have there?
19:18<Talman|Ayanami>No insane processor rape like Windows 7?
19:18<Talman|Ayanami>Its an Atom 270, 1.6 GHx, 1 GB RAM, Intel 945 GFX.
19:19<arby>Talman|Ayanami: sincgle core atom, N450, 2GB RAM
19:19<sirpengi>KDE is customizable, you can turn off a lot of things if you don't find them necessary
19:19<thelongmile>ok so finally got mtr working, no packet loss, so any other ideas?
19:19<Talman|Ayanami>Your numbers are higher.
19:19<arby>Talman|Ayanami: though, _am_ interested in trying out Smeegol -- bit lighter, i presume.
19:19<Talman|Ayanami>What do I apt in to get kde netbook?
19:20<arby>sry, /me <- opensuse
19:20-!-noir_lord [~noirlord@adsl-212-50-172-242.karoo.KCOM.COM] has joined #linode
19:20<sirpengi>Talman|Ayanami: do you actually want the kde-netbook stuff or just kde on your netbook?
19:21<arby>good point ...
19:21<sirpengi>kde-netbook is still in infancy stage
19:21<@pparadis>i actually wound up disliked the "uber-tunable" aspect of KDE and just wound up comfortable with gnome on the linux desktop, sometimes used blackbox as well, used to use enlightenment but stopped and don't really recall why.
19:21<Talman|Ayanami>My resolution is 1024x600.
19:21<Talman|Ayanami>Last time I tried a full install at that resolution, everything was cut off.
19:21<sirpengi>you'll be fine
19:22<Talman|Ayanami>Hell, to configure evolution, I had to go into Monitors and rotate my display, then hold my netbook sideways.
19:22<sirpengi>well, kde-netbook doesn't help you much there. it's just the desktop interface that's different
19:22<sirpengi>it doesn't do much about your running programs
19:23<sirpengi>(besides trying to show them fullscreen)
19:23<noir_lord>used KDE for years and loved it but then I switched Kubuntu and just hated it..moved to Ubuntu purely because at the time I just needed it to work and never went back, KDE is awesome, Kubuntu is terrible
19:23<arby>^^^ sirpengi "full" KDE on a 9-10" netbook is just fine.
19:23<@pparadis>i think lxde is nice, too -->
19:24<sirpengi>pparadis: I'd have to disagree. I can respect your viewpoint, but I can't ever imagine how "having less choice" is ever better
19:25<arby>sirpengi: A billion iphone users would disagree ...
19:25<@pparadis>it was really about the fact that i don't *want* to tune the heck out of every knob in my desktop environment.
19:25<sirpengi>pparadis: it's not like you *have* to. you can leave it to the defaults.
19:25<@pparadis>the defaults suck, imo
19:25<sirpengi>it's not like "you can't launch konqueror until you've decided on these 40 things"
19:26<@pparadis>so i tuned by using a different desktop environment
19:26<noir_lord> I don't need a great deal from a DE though
19:26<sirpengi>mostly you just pick a new plasma skin and that's good.
19:26<sirpengi>I do get nitpicky though, but luckily I can just copy over my .kde directory between installs and get everything back
19:26<@pparadis>don't get me wrong, i spent years using everything i could get my hands on. i just wound up seriously disliking KDE, liking other environments better, and didn't fool with it anymore.
19:27<noir_lord>as a programmer I admire the approach of the KDE team, a lot of their code is a thing of beauty and it is almost infinitely flexible but out the box Gnome is better (and ~95% "there" for me)
19:27<@pparadis>my choice in distros followed a similar path, i think. i just use debian on almost everything, with some ubuntu here and there.
19:27<noir_lord>my time is precious enough these days I just want to use the thing
19:28<@pparadis>exactly, even
19:28<Talman|Ayanami>Yeah... I actually use this netbook.
19:28<Talman|Ayanami>This isn't some experimental gimmick to "play" with KDE.
19:29<sirpengi>well, if you're using ubuntu I'd suggest against it
19:29<sirpengi>KDE on ubuntu isn't KDE at all
19:29-!-sshaw [~decriptor@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
19:29<HoopyCat>mail-wise, i used evolution for awhile, but just switched to mutt a couple months back
19:29<@pparadis>sirpengi: i've used KDE on about 5 different distros, still didn't work out.
19:30<@pparadis>this is just me, others' mileage may vary.
19:30<sirpengi>pparadis: that comment was more geared towards this specific instance
19:30-!-Cromulent [] has quit [Quit: Cromulent]
19:30<Talman|Ayanami>I'm seeing if Evolution is OK, otherwise, back to Thunderbird.
19:30<@pparadis>sirpengi: sure :)
19:30<noir_lord>I have a box running opensuse, KDE on that was excellent unfortunately I standardised all my machines on ubuntu
19:30<sirpengi>pparadis: you don't have to keep defending your position on KDE with me. I'm perfectly fine that you have your own preferences
19:31<arby>fwiw, I installed OpenSUSE+KDE on a netbook for my wife. Loves it to death. Well, mostly. Definitely NOT the "patent-geek-willing-to-tweak-n-twiddle" sort
19:31<noir_lord>OpenSUSE does KDE as well as Ubuntu does Gnome
19:31<Talman|Ayanami>Is that their official whatever?
19:31<@pparadis>sirpengi: i'm really not :). and actually, come to think of it, i liked it best on opensuse. unfortunately, opensuse itself didn't stick with me.
19:31<noir_lord>though I must admit the direction that Ubuntu is going with the UI is worrying (though I can always move to Linux Mint/Debian)
19:32<Talman|Ayanami>You mean Unity?
19:32<Talman|Ayanami>I went to Ubuntu 10.10 Remix.
19:32<Talman|Ayanami>90% of my programs do not open.
19:32<@pparadis>an old friend of mine still runs opensuse on his home desktops, loves it.
19:33<HoopyCat>i'm still on 10.04... won't have a chance to do the upgrade lottery until mid-november
19:33<HoopyCat>maybe i'll stay here ;-)
19:33<sirpengi>what turns me off of opensuse is YaST
19:33<sirpengi>althrough that appears to be what turns a lot of people ON to opensuse
19:33<@pparadis>yeah, same here
19:34<arby>imo, opensuse proj's *marketing* it abysmal (tho, they're working on it valiantly, atm). but, it _is_ my home, biz & client -- and, @Linode -- distro of choice. of course, we'll see what the acruisition will do for that ....
19:34<avenj>hmm, I should give suse another chance
19:34<noir_lord>I'm staying with 10.04 because my linode runs it makes testing alot easier
19:34<avenj>haven't used it since 2000 8)
19:34<@pparadis>apt is my buddy
19:34<sirpengi>yum is my buddy
19:34<arby>zypp it
19:34<sirpengi>yum nomnom
19:34<arby>( there's a urmom coming ... i can feel it)
19:34<@pparadis>looking forward to RHEL 6, playing with the betas
19:35<@pparadis>arby: urmom is almost coming
19:35<@pparadis>not quite there yet
19:35<@pparadis>brb 5
19:35<arby>pparadis: i have friend in OZ ... not savory friends, either!
19:35*pparadis likes it rough
19:35<noir_lord> (big screenshot) thats about all I ask from a DE, its comfortable (more comfortable than windows which is something that only happened in the last couple of years)
19:36*arby checks the locks on the doors ...
19:36*pparadis double-checks the locks for arby... yep, all secure.
19:36<arby>pparadis: so is you clear dripping disain for opensuse .... um ... related ... to the lack of 11.3 @Linode? ;-p
19:37<@pparadis>nah, although i can see where you might think that :)
19:37<@pparadis>we're honestly working on it
19:37<arby>pparadis: uh huh. check's in the mail, too, i bet. (though, not in CA, alas. Treasury's officially "out of money". sigh)
19:38<Talman|Ayanami>>>> I've lost my iphone.
19:38<Talman|Ayanami>Its somewhere within 5 feet of me, but I've lost it.
19:38<sirpengi>steve jobs found out you used linux
19:39<sirpengi>and activated the "recall from non-believers" program
19:39<Talman|Ayanami>On his iphone.
19:39<arby>Talman|Ayanami: that'll learn ya for not getting an iClapper!
19:39<@pparadis>arby: i forgot to grab a towel, can you snag one for me when you get a moment? water's gettin' cold. the check's on the kitchen counter, i didn't forget, silly.
19:40<arby>11.3. three freakin' releases! that's all i'm sayin' ...
19:40<noir_lord>"23:39:55 up 1 day, 16:07, 1 user, load average: 0.00, 0.00, 0.00" server is overloaded again
19:40<sirpengi>did anyone else get an email message from Netflix?
19:41<@pparadis>noir_lord: ?
19:41<sirpengi>@people-that-subscribe-to-netflix ^
19:41<Talman|Ayanami>I hef too many pillows and blankets.
19:41<arby>sirpengi: thought they were 'down' today ...
19:41<tjfontaine>sirpengi: regarding?
19:41<noir_lord>pparadis, I was been sarcastic, I've got one site running on their which uses about 1/100 of the capacity available on a 512
19:41<@pparadis>ah :)
19:41<sirpengi>tjfontaine: email about "sorry watch instant was borked, click here to apply %3 credit on next billing"
19:42<tjfontaine>ah not yet, but I hope so
19:42<sirpengi>email starts with "Dear XXFIRST_NAMEXX,"
19:42<sirpengi>someone's templater is borked
19:42-!-thelongmile [] has quit [Quit: thelongmile]
19:42<arby>sirpengi: perchance FROM netflix in Tadzikistan?
19:43<sirpengi>arby: I'm looking at the headers and it appears legitimate
19:43-!-arooni-mobile_____ [~arooni-mo@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
19:43<sirpengi>companies are having issues with email nowadays. the other week sent like 5 blank emails.
19:43<sirpengi>afterwards they sent an apology "Sorry, we're speechless!"
19:43<noir_lord>yup, more and more
19:43*arby (frequent Netflix renter) checks inbox ... nope, nada.
19:44<noir_lord>at least they have a sense of humour
19:44<noir_lord>nothing I like more than a bank with a sense of humour... ;)
19:45<sirpengi>hrm, netflix uses PowerMTA
19:46<dominikh>knock knock -- Who's there? -- It's your bank, we lost all your money.
19:48<noir_lord>used the phrase "so I use it anyway, slapping it on the walls with the abandon of a bank executive at a bailout." today, mocking bankers is good fun :)
19:48<arby>speaking of 'email issues' ... <can't-stand-M$-hat> for any/all that might ever be interested. if/when M$, or any of its properties, ignores ... cough ... your requests ... cough ... to shove the spam originating from their network(s) .... sideays, there's an "executive escalation" email which seems to get the attention of their internal 'dogs of war': "". All sorts of folks subsequently "hop to it". </can't-
19:48<arby>there i feel much better now
19:48<noir_lord>arby, they mark any emails I send to them (hotmail etc) as spam when none of the other major providers do...and all I'm trying to do is help people grow their penises and improve their sex life (I jest)
19:49<arby>noir_lord: abt to latter .... talk to pparadis. he seems to be on a tear ...
19:49<arby>er, abt THE latter
19:49-!-k- [~]r@2001:5c0:1000:b::79af] has joined #linode
19:50<Friction>what normally happens when an internet service requires the customer to pay after they've used the service?
19:50-!-Boohemian [~Boohemian@] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
19:50<Friction>do they ask for a deposit?
19:50<Friction>i just realised that 'cloud' customers can only pay after they've used the resources
19:51<arby>Friction: wasn't that the whole dot-com business model?
19:51<arby>"We'll get the money later" ...
19:51<avar>Friction: "They have your credit card number" ?
19:51<noir_lord>supplied a website on monday and billed for it, gf said "but they haven't paid you for it yet, what if they don't?" bless her... if they don't pay me it'll be redirecting to :)
19:51<dominikh>arby: wasn't that the whole bank model?
19:51<arby>avar: spoilsport ...
19:52<arby>dominikh: Yes, but now they've Patented the process ...
19:52<arby>right up there with OneClick purchasing
19:52<HoopyCat>i'll gladly pay you tuesday for a cloudburger today
19:53<HoopyCat>i dunno what AWS would do if i didn't pay, but i haven't had the opportunity to find out. i bet they've had such opportunities, tho
19:53<arby>Wow. Quotes from Hum, Wimpy & Data. A true Rennaisance man!
19:53<noir_lord>I mostly hate south park but this is the *clearest* explanation of the bank crash I've seen
19:53<@pparadis>howsabout some vpspinach instead
19:53<arby>ack, ack, ack
19:54<Friction>how does amazon charge for it's S3 servers? they bill monthly dont' they?
19:54<Friction>what's stopping someone using a TB bandwidth and then not paying?
19:54<@pparadis>guys with baseball bats
19:54<@pparadis>oh, and loss of account
19:55<dominikh>English grammar. Opt-out <a>here</a>
19:55<noir_lord>Amazon's elite former special forces team ;)
19:55<Friction>they'll just make a new one
19:55<arby>noir_lord: That'd be Lab126, no?
19:55-!-arooni-mobile_____ [~arooni-mo@] has joined #linode
19:55<Friction>maybe i should just charge per day
19:55<@pparadis>Friction: how many credit cards do you have? sooner or later they're gonna figure that out, even with prepaid cards.
19:55<noir_lord>fortunately they are former american special forces so they are only dangerous to British aid workers who owed them money (I jest)
19:55<avar>Friction: Dude, even if someone fucks them over most people don't
19:55<Talman|Ayanami>Oddly enough, it was in my backpack sitting in my chair, must of fell in when I got up.
19:56<avar>Friction: You know, the whole "social contract" thing and the reason we're not all beating people up in the street and eating them for their meat :)
19:56<arby>pparadis: which is EXACTLY why everyone should print their own!
19:56<HoopyCat>Friction: i dunno... post-pay is quite the west coast phenomenon, so if you stiffed them on a TB-month, i'd assume they'd just look sullen and ride their fixie to their ex-girlfriend's apartment and cut themselves on the stoop
19:56<arby>HoopyCat: /me is somewhat insulted ....
19:56<noir_lord>avar, the reason we are not doing that is because Soylent Green is so cheap now
19:56<avar>If you do any sort of business you have to deal with losing money for one reason or other like that, but on AWS most people just pay, so they don't have to be strict about people doing it.
19:56<noir_lord>sorry..I mean McDonalds
19:56<Talman|Ayanami>They'll keep billing, and lock your Amazon account.
19:57<dominikh>thinking about it... Linode should bill us each century, after we used its services...
19:57<dominikh>that'd be so much nicer of them
19:57<Friction>should i bill per week?
19:57<@pparadis>avar: true as that may be, i'm certain they get (and eliminate) their fair share of people thinking they can beat the system.
19:57<noir_lord>I don't think the linode team could be much nicer, it's about the nicest way to pay for a service I've ever seen
19:57<sirpengi>Friction: per 5 minute intervals
19:57<avar>pparadis: sure, but so does any business. You just adjust your prices accordingly :)
19:57<noir_lord>it amounts to "we are so sure our service is good we'll let you leave anytime"
19:58<noir_lord>shame the phone co's don't follow it..though perhaps not surprising
19:58<HoopyCat>Friction: pre-paid credits, with, say, some number of credits as a free trial? is a top-of-my-head example of that
19:58<arby>noir_lord: heh. phone_co = (linode)^-1
19:58*avar can think of nicer ways to pay for services than for a Linode >:)
19:59<@pparadis>avar: well, yeah, but my point is that i don't think they're losing more than a vanishingly small amount of money from that sort of thing; it's really pretty easy to catch folks playing games like that
19:59<Friction>HoopyCat, but the price is flexible
19:59*dominikh can think of nicer "services" to pay for than for a Linode
19:59*HoopyCat integrates both sides; ends up with half a square telco and a natural log
19:59<linbot>plus a constant
19:59<Friction>i'd have to refund a portion of the money
19:59<avar>pparadis: Exactly, so you don't have to worry about it.
19:59<avar>pparadis: I.e. Friction is a paranoid android.
19:59<arby>HoopyCat: silly . transform to Fourier space ....
19:59<@pparadis>truth, although i do wonder how many people think they can get away with it
19:59<noir_lord>not to mention you can probably write none-payment off as a tax loss
19:59<HoopyCat>Friction: drat... i suppose they'll just have to use your service some more if they want to use those credits
20:00<avar>pparadis: It stops at banks refusing to issue credit cards to people with bad credit, basically.
20:00<Friction>no the credits they don't use pass onto the next month
20:00<Friction>it's genius
20:00<noir_lord>its a simple business equation, sometimes it costs more to stop a loss than than the loss itself
20:00<arby>noir_lord: ditto
20:00<@pparadis>avar: prepaid cards, man...
20:00<@pparadis>they're everywhere nowadays
20:00*avar has never seen one
20:00<dominikh>I got one just for Linode
20:01<@pparadis>avar: i can buy one at CVS down the street, or at shoprite, any number of places within about 10 miles
20:01<avar>But that sounds nice
20:01<avar>Yeah, I'm in the EU :)
20:01<dominikh>same :p
20:01<@pparadis>not really common over there?
20:01<arby>avar: Your bank can also cut a "custom-valued" one ...
20:01<avar>pparadis: I don't think they even exist
20:01<dominikh>avar: they do! :P
20:02<avar>really? Never heard of 'em / seen 'em
20:02<noir_lord>has anyone ever seen a "virtual" credit card? I.e. you transfer money online and they give you a prepaid credit card number and security code (but no physical card)
20:02<noir_lord>seems like an obvious idea
20:02<dominikh>well, I live in Gerrrmany and I own a prepaid MasterCard (basically because the bank wouldn't give me a real CC)
20:02<@pparadis>noir_lord: paypal was doing that for awhile in a beta program
20:02<arby>avar where in EU?
20:02<avar>Amsterdam, but I've only been here for two weeks
20:03<arby>^^^ dominikh ->
20:03<avar>Oh b.t.w., I went to the GitHub meet here yesterday, that was rad
20:03<noir_lord>pparadis, seems obvious and would be accepted even more widely than paypal's normal service
20:03<dominikh>arby: can't visit websites right now. but my bank only issues MasterCard, not Visa
20:04<arby>pparadis: yes, but PayPal *is* after all, evIL!
20:04<noir_lord>yep, that'd be what I was thinking
20:04<@pparadis>arby: well, yeah :)
20:04<noir_lord>and there API sucks
20:04<@pparadis>i've never had a problem at all, but am aware of the horror stories
20:04<arby>yes, yes, picking nits ...
20:05<arby>two words. Meg. Whitman.
20:05<@pparadis>hah, the site is still up -->
20:05<Talman|Ayanami>You n eed to make serious money for paypal to fuck with you.
20:05<Talman|Ayanami>Also, do they still do the Virtual Visa program? It was the Paypal Plugin system.
20:06<@pparadis>Talman|Ayanami: true, although making serious money with paypal also gives them a reason not to screw with you, depending on how things work
20:06<arby>Talman|Ayanami: no, no. They are most certainly NON-discriminatin f-ers of all.
20:06<noir_lord>Talman, they screwed over the author of minecraft most recently, of *all* the people to screw over don't screw over the author of the most popular "geek" game of the year :|
20:06<Talman|Ayanami>What about Notch? He ever get his 600k back?
20:06<@pparadis>Talman|Ayanami: i believe they've discontinued the plugin
20:06<Talman|Ayanami>That's what I mean. He made millions in a day.
20:06<noir_lord>even Microsoft is sensible enough to look after developers
20:06<Talman|Ayanami>And they seized 600k as a "rolling reserve."
20:07<Talman|Ayanami>We had the rolling reserve when we got a paypal merchant account.
20:07<dominikh>wth is a rolling reserve?
20:07<Talman|Ayanami>Finally had to cancel the merchant API, then call them to get the reserve removed.
20:07<@pparadis>sucks, but of course the alternative is to get a real merchant account and go from there
20:07<HoopyCat>if you end up too cash-endowed to be under the radar, but aren't cash-endowed enough to experience the paypal champagne room...
20:07<Talman|Ayanami>We did.
20:07<Talman|Ayanami>30% of your earnings are held for a rolling 90 days.
20:07<@pparadis>yeah :(
20:07<arby>There is value in old-school merchant banking, with direct-via Visa/MasterCard payment APIs.
20:08<noir_lord>we need a "linode" of online payment systems, a system that is fair, equitable and doesn't screw you over, I thought that might have been google checkout but that does not seem to be gaining acceptance
20:08<Talman|Ayanami>So, in Jan you make 100 bucks, 30 gets held for 90 days, released in Mar.
20:08<@pparadis>noir_lord: funny that, i expected it to gain more traction, too
20:08<Talman|Ayanami>Next month, you get 30 dollars in April.
20:08<Talman|Ayanami>Nobody cares about google checkout. Sad, really.
20:08<noir_lord>pparadis, I figure it's because paypal is good enough and there is a switching cost
20:08<Talman|Ayanami>Real merchant accounts have some serious drawbacks, though.
20:09<Talman|Ayanami>Have you seen the request form?
20:09<Talman|Ayanami>It includes a full hard pull on your personal credit.
20:09<HoopyCat>of all the payment types i accept, the first-class mailed check is my favorite
20:09<@pparadis>Talman|Ayanami: oh i know, i used to have one.
20:10<noir_lord>the problem was solved but banks are not interested (probably because gouging on both ends would not be possible)
20:10<arby>Talman|Ayanami: better a " full hard pull on your personal credit", thank f-ing it over through moronic business practices -- and STILL no bloody customer service phone #
20:10<HoopyCat>ain't no processing fee, ain't no waitin' a couple days for the EFT from paypal to my bank... cold, hard check.
20:10<@pparadis>along with personally guaranteeing the account even though you own a legally separate business.
20:10<@pparadis>funny how that works
20:10<Talman|Ayanami>Yes, pparadis.
20:10<Talman|Ayanami>I will not personally guarantee anything.
20:10<@pparadis>i wound up caving
20:10<Talman|Ayanami>If I can't get it with the EIN, I don't want it.
20:10<arby>HoopyCat: personally, I *prefer* getting paid in coins of Roman salt ... QA was long enough
20:10<@pparadis>couldn't figure a way around it at the time
20:11<noir_lord>HoopyCat, I prefer a brown envelope stuffed with portraits of the queen ;)
20:11<avenj>I prefer uncut cocaine
20:11<HoopyCat>arby: i would lick those for *hours*
20:11<Talman|Ayanami>Paypal also has a fun little thing. I signed up, and now they're like "You have an account from 2001, we locked your business account till you login to that old account. We won't tell you what that account is."
20:11<HoopyCat>noir_lord: i would lick those for *hours*
20:11<@pparadis>avenj: "i can't feel my face"
20:11<HoopyCat>avenj: i would lick those for *hours*
20:11<noir_lord>avenj, uncut cocaine has a high holding cost however
20:11<@pparadis>must keep plenty in reserve?
20:11<arby>HoopyCat: I *strongly* suggest not saying such things while pparadis is still here. see above re: "... tear ..."
20:11<Talman|Ayanami>So, we accept check and money order. :)
20:12<@pparadis>arby: now now now, the only tearing gonna happen around here...
20:12<Talman|Ayanami>Everybody pays by check anyway.
20:12<@pparadis>OH GOD THE DECIMALS
20:13<arby>jed that's the current version of iTUnes' Ping, ain't it?
20:13<mdcollins>The decimals and the rain.. I want both to go away, atleast for another 1.5 hours.
20:14<@pparadis>jed: i have designed an advanced caps lock key, one that only works when depressed, but ceases to uppercase when released. i shall call it the "shift" key
20:14<noir_lord>ThAt SoUnDs LiKe A rEaL TiMeSaVeR
20:14<dominikh>I'm depressed, too :(
20:14<Talman|Ayanami>That is...
20:15<arby>Wasn't there someone in here asking how to run a business?
20:15<dominikh>no way
20:15<tjfontaine>it's a sprint not a marathon
20:16<arby>i know *i* was in here asking what to actually DO abt IPv4 evaporation. but, i feel much better now.
20:16<noir_lord>I'm in the process of starting a small business, I'm finding it quite interesting having never done it before
20:17<arby>noir_lord: Think Global. Act Local. works for everything.
20:17<Talman|Ayanami>What does "Think Global" mean.
20:18<HoopyCat>arby: play around with IPv6 with the eventual expectation that it will become economically inevitable, and sit back and watch the show as getting IPv4 allocations becomes more difficult
20:18-!-adfjk [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:19*HoopyCat wouldn't want to be one of those "5 FREE IP ADDRESSES WITH YOUR VPS!" shops
20:19<mdcollins>There's actually an asterisk there..
20:20<Talman|Ayanami>Wasn't there a guy in here going "those are perfectly reasonable, they gave me 5 IP addresses without a problem!"
20:20<mdcollins>The disclaimer text reads, "5 ip addresses in out special 10.0.*.* block"
20:20<HoopyCat>* 4 of them start with 192.168
20:20<arby>HoopyCat: I'm afrid you're probly right ...
20:20*caker is trippin' on sunshine
20:20<Talman|Ayanami>Cause I noted the site said they'd get 5 or 10 IPs free and wondered how that worked if ICANN was rationing them.
20:20<HoopyCat>arby: it's like global warming... too late to do shit now
20:21<HoopyCat>Talman|Ayanami: ICANN isn't rationing them
20:21<mdcollins>caker, little late for sunshine, eh?
20:21<HoopyCat>mdcollins: that's where the trippin' comes in
20:21<arby>mdcollins: depends ENTIRELEY on the _quality_ of the recreational drugs ...
20:21<Friction>the world isn't warming the universe is cooling
20:21<Talman|Ayanami>Who's requiring acceptable use?
20:21<noir_lord>I found a niche by accident, where I live is an IT backwater (despite been a reasonably large city (~500,000)) was talking to someone and they mentioned they where looking for a particular website but the only local software dev place had quote an insane amount
20:22<HoopyCat>Talman|Ayanami: in this neck of the woods, ARIN.
20:22<Talman|Ayanami>How much is insane.
20:22<Friction>what website?
20:22<sirpengi>facebook clone but with guinea pigs
20:22<noir_lord>figured I could do it for alot less and still make a nice profit so did, they loved it enough they have another system they want doing and have referred me two other companies in a similar line of business who basically want the same
20:22<arby>HoopyCat: /me is on a boat. Don't care one whit abt Global Warming. At least not until we dock ...
20:22<Friction>guinea pigs don't use the internet
20:22<HoopyCat>arby: less ice = more water
20:22<HoopyCat>arby: more water = more room for boats
20:22<noir_lord>now they've sacked their current web developer and want me to take over that as well, somehow I ended up with work well into next year with no effort
20:23<arby>HoopyCat: boats float :-)
20:23<Talman|Ayanami>Their owners do.
20:23<sirpengi>Friction: that's the genius part
20:23<noir_lord>mostly by charging a reasonable amount and delivery on time
20:23<Friction>oh ok
20:23<Talman|Ayanami>Soeriously, what kind of site was it?
20:23<Talman|Ayanami>And how much did the other people want?
20:23<Friction>facebook for guinea pigs
20:23<arby>HoopyCat: It *IS* all working out, isn't it! Look ... sunshine!!
20:23<@caker>long nick is looooooong
20:23<Friction>guinea pigs all look the same anyway
20:24<Friction>is that racist?
20:24<noir_lord>Talman, they are an electrical testing company, they wanted the ability to upload reports but restrict access based on whether its someone at head office or at a branch/site
20:24<Talman|Ayanami>They wanted a report management system.
20:24*caker is now know as caker|changinghisnickto:caker|changinghisnickto:caker|changinghisnick.. *explode*
20:24<Talman|Ayanami>OK. How much did the other company want to charge.
20:24*jed long nicks
20:24<noir_lord>5000 quid and 3 months
20:24<Talman|Ayanami>How much is that in Earth money?
20:24<noir_lord>Talman, about 8000 dollars
20:25<Talman|Ayanami>8 thousand dollars. For an RMS?
20:25<noir_lord>like I said insane
20:25<Talman|Ayanami>That's about what a law enforcement agency in America pays, actually.
20:25<Talman|Ayanami>I'd of done it in Joomla for 1,5k
20:25*HoopyCat hasn't found that particular tunnel yet
20:26-!-gmcharlt [] has joined #linode
20:26<noir_lord>they want a much more sophisticated (but still not complicated) system for internal use and they quoted then ~16,000 dollars for that :|
20:26<noir_lord>oh..did I mention it was gonna run on Access
20:26<Talman|Ayanami>No, but that makes perfect sense.
20:26-!-jake [] has quit []
20:27<Talman|Ayanami>There's an RMS for security companies and police departments that is "Enterprise" version for 5000 base, 1500 per seat.
20:27<Talman|Ayanami>Its written in VB and uses Access.
20:27<HoopyCat>ah-ha, that's on the resi side of campus
20:27-!-slackmagic [] has quit [Quit: leaving]
20:27<noir_lord>Talman, I went for a job once as a programmer for a networking company, they used an inhouse system running on Access in a network multiuser environment, the Access server ran on an emachines desktop
20:28<Talman|Ayanami>A lot of people love Access cause it came with Office.
20:28<Talman|Ayanami>They already had "clients" and the programming language.
20:28<noir_lord>but the guy who started the company (and created (spawned)) the database knew it wasnt scaling so bought a seriously nice linux rack..which he then used for replicating the data to a mysql instance..
20:28<noir_lord>but still used Access as the host :|
20:28<Talman|Ayanami>Sounds about right.
20:29<Talman|Ayanami>People like what they're comfortable with.
20:29<noir_lord>the guys in the warehouse had to log off so the people in the office could run reports...I decided what they where offering would not cover fixing that mess
20:29<Friction>access is for serious pros
20:29<noir_lord>I asked him how often they had database outages that affect business, his response "oh not that often, 3-4 days a month"
20:29<Talman|Ayanami>Its ok. One company I worked at, the way you did reports was to do them in MS Office Forms, print them, and hand them in at the end of the night.
20:30<noir_lord>this was a company that employed a dozen staff and had a pretty big warehouse, the bar for alot of enterprise software is horribly low
20:30<Talman|Ayanami>This was a company that employed 150 employees across three states. :)
20:30<Talman|Ayanami>I wanted to build a RMS for them, and the owner actually said that's bullshit, they should write their reports by hand like he did when he was in the marines and banned the use of laptops.
20:31<noir_lord>I can top that, I worked for a company that was run by quakers, they wouldnt allow the use of computers full stop, *everything* was on ledgers
20:31-!-adfjk [] has joined #linode
20:31<arby>Talman|Ayanami: at that point, the only POSSIBLE response is to ... salute.
20:31<noir_lord>to send a fax for supplies we had to nip to the company next door and borrow their fax machines
20:31<noir_lord>though strangely they did have electrical forklifts..
20:31<Talman|Ayanami>He wanted the company website to have a 200 tall American flag banner.
20:32<Talman|Ayanami>Actually... What he wanted was for me to cut and paste the Department of State website.
20:32<Talman|Ayanami>Quakers hate technology?
20:32<arby>Talman|Ayanami: i know, I'm surprised. They like Motor Oil ...
20:33<Talman|Ayanami>That would be the Quaker State, not the Quaker. :)
20:33<noir_lord>current client IT is a mess, they have 5 computers, all connected wireless each of those has an inkjet printer attached, they have one working email address for the company domain (their ex-"IT" guy was an idiot)
20:33<HoopyCat>wait what
20:34<noir_lord>when the boss wants to send an email he has to kick the 17yo intern off the only machine set up to use that email address (they lost the passwords)
20:34<Talman|Ayanami>Cain and Abel the target PC, recover the password.
20:34<linbot>HoopyCat: IP:; rDNS:; ASN adv net:; ASN: AS8001; ASN owner: Net Access Corporation; ASN reg: 1996-08-22; Abuse contact:; Net owner: Linode; City: Absecon; State: New Jersey; Postal code: 08201; Country: US; Domains: 27;
20:34-!-k- [~]r@2001:5c0:1000:b::79af] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20:34<noir_lord>so she gets to see *everything* that comes through the company email addresses, its insane
20:34<HoopyCat>just sayin' :-)
20:35-!-k- [~]r@2001:5c0:1000:b::7a63] has joined #linode
20:35<Talman|Ayanami>Several of our clients refused email.
20:35<Talman|Ayanami>They just want a website. So,!
20:36<Talman|Ayanami>Or worse, they use their official city/county email addresses, which are all a matter of public record.
20:36<A-KO>Talman: You can get on gmail
20:36<A-KO>for small businesses
20:36<A-KO>for free
20:36<Talman|Ayanami>I'm aware...
20:36<noir_lord>they want me to sort it out for them so I'm gonna network all the machines set up a simple server (cheapo HP ProLiant or similar) hooked to a network laser printer
20:36<Talman|Ayanami>They don't WANT it.
20:36<Talman|Ayanami>They want ot keep doing what they've been doing.
20:36<noir_lord>will use a linode as a mail server so their engineers have good access
20:37-!-MattWB [] has joined #linode
20:37<Talman|Ayanami>W#hy not just get them google apps, noir?
20:37<noir_lord>based on the figures they supplied they'll save what I charge in the first 6 months on ink *alone*
20:37<Talman|Ayanami>Do they need a pop3 server?
20:38<arby>noir_lord: unless they're using MIRC ink ....
20:38<noir_lord>there are privacy issues
20:38<Talman|Ayanami>Then again, one thing I noticed. With one client, we were just providing email hosting,. Everyone was all OMG HOW DO WE DO THIS EMAIL THING.
20:38*HoopyCat slaps arby around a bit with a large trout
20:39<Talman|Ayanami>They wanted their email to forward to their official city addresses and then be able to magically respond as reservations@domain
20:39<Talman|Ayanami>And they had no way of configuring anything, the city gave them Outlook and it was locked down.
20:39-!-chesty [] has quit [Quit: Coyote finally caught me]
20:40<arby>HoopyCat: They still have trout in the lakes? I thought between the leakage from Love Canal, and the Asian carp ...
20:40<noir_lord>classic case of a business that has expanded quickly when it was just the two of them (one person doing the paperwork, one engineer) it worked but now they have a bunch of engineers and some pretty big clients
20:40<noir_lord>they are struggling badly
20:40<arby>Ok, now THIS is important stuff:
20:40<arby>"Vote for Beer: East Coast vs. West Coast"
20:40-!-gasparro [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:41<arby>HoopyCat: you're gonna haveta narrow that argh down ... lot to choose from
20:42<noir_lord>sad part is they have no idea what anything should cost so they've been getting gouged price wise for a really substandard service
20:42<HoopyCat>arby: on medical leave from my barstool at the local pub
20:42*arby pauses for a moment of silence ...
20:42<Talman|Ayanami>What were they getting?
20:43<Talman|Ayanami>I mean, I would of deployed Thunderbird on every PC with IMAP.
20:43-!-gasparro [] has joined #linode
20:43<noir_lord>Talman, that is most likely what they are gonna get now
20:44<Talman|Ayanami>Or if I wanted to get fancy, the local server pull all email addresses via imap, then dump them in mailboxes.
20:44<arby>HoopyCat: then you definitely do not want to pay attention to how astonishlingly good i think "dogfish gonzo imperial porter" is ... simply ignore the barstool behind the curtain
20:44<noir_lord>well the quote I saw was a 4 grand Xeon based server
20:44<Talman|Ayanami>Then have the LAN clients IMAP pull those.
20:44<Talman|Ayanami>FOr what.
20:44<Talman|Ayanami>What could they possibly need a Xeon Based server for.
20:44<noir_lord>fileshare/printer server
20:44<noir_lord>yeah I'm not kidding :|
20:44<Talman|Ayanami>And how many people are sharing files? :)
20:45<noir_lord>6 (though only 4 are usually in the office at once)
20:45<HoopyCat>arby: o, i tried a beer... spent the next day with a headache the size of milwaukee
20:45<Talman|Ayanami>30? With Single SIgn On AD shares? :)
20:45<Internat>i bet they dont have single sign on ;)
20:45<Talman|Ayanami>I"ve never really had to implement Single Sign On.
20:45<Internat>and id be urprised if there was an AD server :P
20:45<Talman|Ayanami>Hell, I wouldn't know where to start, other than google.
20:45<arby>HoopyCat: yikes. i usually take some tequila to help with the beer hangovers ....
20:46<noir_lord>they don't have anything, its just a bunch of desktops and laptops bought from PC World connected via a POS wireless router
20:46<HoopyCat>arby: i wasn't going to make the problem worse :-)
20:46<Talman|Ayanami>Yeah... Run some cable to a linux server, set up some samba shares, watch them worship you.,
20:46<arby>HoopyCat: /me is mystefied by that logice, but will take your word for it ...
20:47<noir_lord>that's pretty much what I am going to do
20:47-!-Jin [] has joined #linode
20:47<Talman|Ayanami>Do they have wireless problems?
20:47-!-Friction[2] [~lol@] has joined #linode
20:47<noir_lord>I'm not a NE but there set up will be simpler than my home setup (before my gf made me cull my machines)
20:47<Talman|Ayanami>That's not even a job for an engineer.
20:47<Talman|Ayanami>A kid from geek squad could do it. :)
20:47-!-Jin is now known as Guest314
20:48<A-KO>your gf made you get rid of your machines?
20:48<A-KO>grow a pair
20:48<A-KO>seriously :P
20:48<Guest314>Ant one know why flagfox says is in Tennessee?
20:48*Internat sends chuck on the mission
20:48<Talman|Ayanami>flagfox is wrong?
20:48<noir_lord>A-KO, the 2nd time she tripped over the CAT-6 across the door outside the bathroom she got a bit annoyed
20:48-!-Jippi_mac [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:48<linbot>HoopyCat: IP:; rDNS: None; ASN adv net:; ASN: AS6939; ASN owner: Hurricane Electric, Inc.; ASN reg: 1996-06-28; Abuse contact:; Net owner: Linode LLC; City: Nashville; State: Tennessee; Postal code: 37211; Country: US; Domains: 1;
20:48<HoopyCat>SelfishMan: isn't in nashville
20:48<Talman|Ayanami>Um... caker in Tennessee now?
20:49<A-KO>noir_lord: that's your fault for not running it properly
20:49<noir_lord>I knew it was there!
20:49<Talman|Ayanami>And yes... I do not leave tripping cables.
20:49<arby>noir_lord: heck, with 6 people on the server, you could buy a Buffalo WZR-HP-G300NH, plug in a USB drive and take care of all their issues in one fell swoop ... They'd carve EasterIsland-sized momuments in your likeness.
20:49<Talman|Ayanami>That's dangerous.
20:49-!-SamWhited [] has joined #linode
20:49<Internat>as long as you put something in so that they can do backups :P
20:49<Talman|Ayanami>Those are things taht I don't know what they are.
20:50<HoopyCat>Guest314: it's within a continent or so, which is about what you get for IP-based geolocation :-)
20:50<Talman|Ayanami>I'm sure their wonderful. But what if I want to ssh in and use their idle cycles to play minecraft?
20:50<noir_lord>arby, I know, this town is a dead end for IT, there is pretty much nowhere for small businesses to go to
20:50-!-juque [] has joined #linode
20:52<HoopyCat>arby: i like beer, but i love life
20:52<HoopyCat>well, i love beer, but i love life more.
20:52<noir_lord>my rough sketch is a little proliant running linux for samba shares and print sharing with a small business router (something with VPN support) with a seperate wireless network
20:53<dominikh>HoopyCat: "which is about what you get for IP-based geolocation". nahnahnah. based on my IP, they are even able to tell me which city I live in :<
20:53<Internat>out of interest, is the business planning on growing?
20:53<arby>HoopyCat: hear ya. those darned nigglin' trade-off. getcha every time ...
20:53<Internat>because at some point your going to get to the stage where you need some sort of Active Directory/Directory Services etc setup
20:54-!-Friction [~lol@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:54<HoopyCat>dominikh: some situations work out better than others. it's overall a crapshoot, tho
20:54<noir_lord>Internat, they are over staffed in the office as it is because they really are not taking advantage of the technology
20:54<dominikh>HoopyCat: I think that for Germany the databases have a higher resolution. at least I was able to scare the shit out of some people ;)
20:54<arby>noir_lord: the Buffalo has samba, cups, VPN & dual-freq Wireless. just sayin ...
20:55<Internat>noir_lord: that doesnt answer the question.
20:55<linbot>HoopyCat: IP:; rDNS:; ASN adv net:; ASN: AS11351; ASN owner: Road Runner HoldCo LLC; ASN reg: 1998-07-14; Abuse contact:; Net owner: Road Runner HoldCo LLC; City: Rochester; State: New York; Postal code: 14609; Country: US; Domains: 2;
20:55<Internat>what im getting at is, dont put something in that if they start growing is going to require a lot of rework
20:55<HoopyCat>dominikh: not entirely unheard of here, either :-)
20:55<Internat>the company i work for, started off with 10-15 people.. way before i started.. were up to 500 now..
20:55<linbot>dominikh: IP:; rDNS:; ASN adv net:; ASN: AS20825; ASN owner: Unitymedia Group; ASN reg: 2002-09-11; City: Herne; State: Nordrhein-Westfalen; Country: DE;
20:55<Internat>and were STILL cleaning up messes that were created when there was only 10-15 people
20:56<dominikh>"Herne", pah. that's an older database
20:56<noir_lord>Internat, indeed however at the moment they have 4 office staff supporting 12 engineers which is an insane ratio
20:57<Internat>thats why i was asking if the company was planning on growing :)
20:57<HoopyCat>dominikh: i've had scary good success doing location from the client end, via nearby BSSIDs
20:57<noir_lord>they where printing off an posting multiple 150 page reports, the system I just did for them eliminates that by moving it online
20:57<noir_lord>I think they will realise shortly they are now over staffed
20:57<Internat>if its only going to stay with 4-5 people who cares.. if there going to slowly start growing then start laying the ground work now
20:57-!-chesty [] has joined #linode
20:57<HoopyCat>dominikh: there's places where it's got me down to which side of the room i'm on... well, for rather large values of room
20:58<arby>and, we're docking in 10 mins. tt4n boyz-n-girlz. hagw.
20:58<dominikh>HoopyCat: that's an interesting one here. first, google was able to locate me on the point (literally showing me my house). and now they cannot even get the city right. I wonder if some system update broke it (rights wise), because only one AP out of ~8 got replaced
20:58<HoopyCat>arby: don't drink the water, unless it has been tested by yeast and purified by alcohol
20:58<dominikh>HoopyCat: I am not exactly sad that they cannot find me anymore, though ;)
20:58<noir_lord>Internat, yeah its a fine line, for now I'll be happy if I can get them set up with a backed up fileserver (which is better than the current system of emailing documents to each other over the wireless) :|
20:59<arby>HoopyCat: heh. i don't drink water. fish fsck in it. ;-)
20:59<Tiven>guys, ill be flying to london in november and its my first time
20:59-!-arby [] has left #linode []
20:59<Talman|Ayanami>Don't die.
20:59<Tiven>how many hours should i be at the airport pre-departure :O ?
20:59<Talman|Ayanami>Don't bring a pocket knife.
20:59-!-SamWhited [] has left #linode [Leaving.]
20:59<Talman|Ayanami>Bring a book.
21:00<noir_lord>arby, I can never understand how people who believe in homeopathy can drink anything
21:00<HoopyCat>dominikh: i live on a side street of primarily single-family houses with comparitively large lots, pretty close to a slightly more significant street with some multi-family houses (the whole house->apartment conversion thing)
21:00<Tiven>6 hours no way bro!
21:00<noir_lord>also when asked the nature of your visit avoid the word "Jihad"
21:00<Talman|Ayanami>Check the airpot website, it will tell you.
21:00<HoopyCat>dominikh: i replaced my AP, and now at home, it has me about 75 feet closer to that street
21:00<Talman|Ayanami>Usually 3-4 hours.
21:00<noir_lord>and if visiting the underground in london try to avoid a) looking like a brazilian plumber b) running
21:01<Tiven>that reminds me: i should have a haircut
21:01<Talman|Ayanami>That's part of "don't die."
21:01<dominikh>HoopyCat: basic triangulation, yeah.
21:01-!-jake [] has joined #linode
21:02<HoopyCat>dominikh: indeed, it's not surprising at all... just amusing that it had that effect
21:02-!-hercynium [] has joined #linode
21:02<dominikh>HoopyCat: now convince everyone else to replace their APs, too.
21:02<HoopyCat>actually, just checked, and it still has me misplaced but the Circle of Doubt has expanded considerably
21:03<Talman|Ayanami>Why is it my iphone has WAAS but it can't tell me what lane of traffic I'm in.
21:04<Talman|Ayanami>I'm in CONUS, I expect that thing to resolve to 1 meter.
21:04<HoopyCat>Talman|Ayanami: because by the time it can calculate precisely where you are, you aren't there any more
21:04<Talman|Ayanami>Seriously, I'm travelling faster than it can apply correction via WAAS data?
21:04-!-Guest314 [] has quit [Quit: Guest314]
21:05<HoopyCat>Talman|Ayanami: so, it'd rather calculate where you are than exactly where you were. also, WAAS is from geostationary satellites and may not have sufficient reception in your pants.
21:05<noir_lord> awww Mini-Me server
21:05<HoopyCat>Talman|Ayanami: also, even if it knows where you are, it doesn't know where the lane is.
21:06<HoopyCat>(at least, not with that much certainty)
21:06<Talman|Ayanami>map overlay.
21:06<Talman|Ayanami>anyway, reboot tiem.
21:06<HoopyCat>Talman|Ayanami: the map isn't that good
21:06<Talman|Ayanami>GOOGLES HAVE FAILED ME.
21:07-!-jrguitar21 [~Adium@] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
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21:08-!-Talman|Ayanami [~Talman|] has quit [Read error: No route to host]
21:09<HoopyCat>google doesn't make the maps you buy. they make the maps you buy better.
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21:13<noir_lord>winces@price of windows small business server
21:13-!-Boohemian [] has joined #linode
21:13<HoopyCat>small business server is big business
21:14<Talman|Ayanami>Well, yes.
21:14<A-KO>it's pricey, but when you're a business
21:14<A-KO>the total price of sbs + server isn't much
21:14-!-chesty [] has quit [Quit: Coyote finally caught me]
21:15<Talman|Ayanami>Its a Complete Microsoft Small Business Solution.
21:15<A-KO>total of like $1400-$1500
21:15<A-KO>comes with windows, exchange, sharepoint, other stuff.
21:15<A-KO>depends on your needs, but that's not that much
21:15<Talman|Ayanami>ITs basically a kitchen sink.
21:15<noir_lord>A-KO, yeah I get that all that still makes me wince though
21:15<Talman|Ayanami>That way you'll not go to anyone else.
21:16<Talman|Ayanami>Need accounting software? Just install it on your SBS machine!
21:16<HoopyCat>ok, so this is apparently a #74 bulb
21:16<Talman|Ayanami>Tired of working? Flight Simulator 10!
21:16<Talman|Ayanami>MICROSOFT. Everything you will ever need is made by us.
21:17<noir_lord>has often found that installing windows onto a machine is an excellent way of avoiding getting any work done ;)
21:17-!-chesty [] has joined #linode
21:18<A-KO>it's hard to compete with when you've got small business customers that need it :P and need it fast.
21:18<noir_lord>oh it's an enticing package
21:18<Talman|Ayanami>You mean they need a box.
21:18<A-KO>last thing I need is constant phone calls on how to do AB or C :P you get that already...heh
21:18<Talman|Ayanami>A tpaster.
21:18<Talman|Ayanami>Toaster Server.
21:18<A-KO>Talman|Ayanami: Some places don't want to cloud everything.
21:18<noir_lord>VS2010 is irritatingly good as well
21:18<A-KO>which I respect
21:18<A-KO>cloud services are a sham
21:18-!-jrguitar21 [~Adium@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
21:18<noir_lord>A-KO, agreed
21:18<A-KO>just a way for them to easily mine more data about you
21:18<A-KO>that's all
21:18<HoopyCat>screw the cloud
21:19<Talman|Ayanami>Who said anything about cloud?
21:19<noir_lord>A-KO, I'm still waiting for the first massive data leak
21:19<A-KO>same noir_lord
21:19<A-KO>noir_lord: I'm not sold on it--I mean, I have gmail for some buddies that wanted domain email and all--but at the same time, I highly discourage cloud solutions for anything really.
21:20<noir_lord>A-KO, for a home user it's fine I would never suggest it for a business
21:20<A-KO>the sad thing is
21:20<noir_lord>it's short term thinking, company data is worth far more than the hardware it runs on costs :|
21:20<A-KO>friend of mine worked for a govt. contractor that put stuff in dropbox because they were too cheap to buy a server
21:21<A-KO>I sighed
21:21<A-KO>eh, they don't care. What they don't know won't hurt 'em (well, it will, but they don't think about that)
21:21<A-KO>like universities who put all of their email into gmail
21:21<A-KO>it's like, you've gotta be shitting me
21:21<A-KO>way to let all of your potential IP leak out to competitive companies
21:21<noir_lord>as for inhouse clouds...awesome you turned a bunch of systems networked together with all the attendant power inefficiency into a mainframe
21:23<Tiven>A-KO lots of universities use google apps for mail
21:23<Tiven>and i dont find anything wrong with that
21:23<Tiven>but yeah govt and dropbox.. :S
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21:25<HoopyCat>crocodiles on a commuter
21:26<Talman|Ayanami>Tiven: I think the takeaway here is that google apps and gmail should be banned worldwide and all companies, universities, etc should be required to buy server hardware and put that on the internet.
21:27<A-KO>Tiven: the reason why I disagree is that google indexes all of it--everything.
21:27<A-KO>That's how they make their money
21:27-!-k- [~]r@2001:5c0:1000:b::7a63] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
21:27<Tiven>its not like the others dont A-KO
21:27<A-KO>It's not unreasonable to assume either google as an entity or people within google wouldn't index potential projects for the sake of jacking the IP, things in early stages of development that aren't patented yet--that google grabs and runs with first.
21:28<Tiven>talman <3 google!
21:28<A-KO>Everything in-house should be where it stays.
21:28<marius>OK, I will now conclude that something is fucked up...I've now got python 2.6, PIL and numpy all intalled using my distros pacakge manager, and I am still receiving the "IOError: decoder zip not available" :s
21:28<Tiven>encrypt your important shit then
21:28<marius>stupid python =(
21:29<Tiven>if you're sending something important over email, encrypt the file
21:29<HoopyCat>my .edu mail is, almost without exception, announcements either already publically-visible or cc:'d widely enough so as to be essentially public
21:29<A-KO>HoopyCat: sure, but that doesn't go for people who do research :P
21:29<Tiven>A-KO encrypt
21:29<HoopyCat>i don't give a damn where it is, really, as long as i can IMAP it
21:29<A-KO>I dunno which world you live in, but in the world I live in, everyone under the sun conducts business via e-mail. Period.
21:29<A-KO>E-mail is *everything*
21:29<Tiven>umm not really
21:29<HoopyCat>A-KO: employee mail is on exchange
21:30<A-KO>Tiven: E-mail is *everything* in the business world.
21:30<A-KO>There's no disputing that
21:30-!-pea[2] [~lol@] has joined #linode
21:30<A-KO>I dont' care who you are :P
21:30<Talman|Ayanami>Um, actually, getting my clients and vendors to email me is like pulling teeth.
21:30<Talman|Ayanami>They call. THey always call.
21:30<A-KO>There have been many attempts to get people to use other systems than e-mail
21:30<A-KO>and they don't.
21:30<HoopyCat>o, basecamp.
21:31<Talman|Ayanami>Wasn't basecamp for hipsters?
21:31-!-Friction [~lol@] has joined #linode
21:32<sirpengi>basecamp is for RoR'ers
21:32<sirpengi>if they're hipsters then yeah
21:32-!-mdcollins [] has quit [Quit: /quit /quit /quit]
21:32<Talman|Ayanami>All I ever really saw of it was design blogs who worshiped Apple talking about how Rails is the second coming and you should be on fucking basecamp RIGHT NOW.
21:32<Talman|Ayanami>Make your clients use it!
21:33<sirpengi>basecamp actively refuses to implement gantt charts
21:33<HoopyCat>Talman|Ayanami: apparently... it's slow and it's hard to find stuff and extracting time tracking data so i can produce an invoice is a pain, BUT! it beats email in this case, at least
21:33<sirpengi>which is why I'm not using them...
21:33<chesty>does linode still use helper scripts on boot?
21:33<HoopyCat>for what it's worth, i use paper for my projects
21:33-!-blair [~blair@] has joined #linode
21:33<HoopyCat>chesty: i believe so
21:34<Tiven>sorry disconnected
21:34<Tiven>anyway A-KO
21:34<chesty>I'm trying to get my console to work through lish, I changed a few file from tty1 to hvc0 but they went back to ttys1
21:34<Tiven>keyword: encryption !
21:34<chesty>HoopyCat: you used to be able to turn the off, i can't see where anymore
21:35<HoopyCat>chesty: click on the config profile and it should be there (xen helpers, i think)
21:35<HoopyCat>haven't looked in awhile myself, tho
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21:36-!-arooni-mobile_____ [~arooni-mo@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
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21:37-!-Eman_ is now known as Eman
21:37<blair>'ello folks
21:37-!-Boohemian [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
21:38<chesty>HoopyCat: it's not there anymore
21:38-!-pea[2] [~lol@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
21:41<Tiven>hi blair
21:41<Tiven>goodnight blair
21:41<Tiven>gnite folks
21:41<HoopyCat>chesty: hrrm... mine still has it:
21:42-!-A-KO [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
21:42<HoopyCat>g'evening, blair :-)
21:43<blair>How are you on this fine autumn evening?
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21:45<HoopyCat>chesty: also visible on the new manager under dashboard -> advanced configuration -> (your configuration profile)
21:45<chesty>ah, domestic blindness. my screen reader is on a break
21:47<HoopyCat>chesty: ah, my screenshot was probably somewhat useless then :-)
21:47<chesty>no, it was useful, I couldn't find how to get that screen
21:47-!-message144 [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
21:48<chesty>I'm not medically blind, btw, just domestically blind.
21:48-!-progrock [] has left #linode []
21:48<marius>I'm selectively blind :3
21:49<HoopyCat>i sure play a 33% mean pinball
21:50<@jed>This is a CODE 10 EMERGENCY
21:51<noir_lord>I have selective male blindness, I'm unable to see pots in the sink, clothes on the floor and dust
21:51<noir_lord>I can however see an attractive woman from 3 miles on a foggy day
21:51<chesty>how do you get modern ubuntu to reread it's inittab stuff
21:52<noir_lord>used to be initctl reload
21:53<HoopyCat>telinit q for older-school, initctl reload-configuration for newer-school, i think
21:54<noir_lord>HoopyCat, yep initctl reload-configuration to make it clearer
21:54<noir_lord>though it also says it should not be nescessary to do that since inotify watches for configuration changes anyway
21:55<marius>tychoish: You about my good man?
21:55<HoopyCat>fsckin V-2 sockets, how do they work?
21:55<chesty>not working though, I've rgreped /etc for tty1, changed them all to hvc0 and killall getty, still says tty1 in ps aux
21:56<chesty>i've initctl reload-configuration
21:56<HoopyCat>chesty: which distro/version, and how'd you end up with this broken, anyway?
21:57<chesty>HoopyCat: lucid, I just changed kernels to 2.6.36-1-virtual
21:57<chesty>I don't know that it was working before the change, anyway
21:57<chesty>one thing I did notice about 2.6.36-1-virtual is it doesn't have /dev/xvda it has /dev/sda
21:57<HoopyCat>chesty: hmm
21:58<chesty>so I figure tty1 might have changed too
21:58<HoopyCat>if it weren't 90 seconds to bedtime...
21:59<chesty>it's OK, christmas is coming though, and you aren't yet on my good list
21:59-!-karstensrage [] has joined #linode
22:00<HoopyCat>chesty: check /proc/cmdline and/or dmesg and see what's in there... or, echo "hi this is tty1" > /dev/tty1, echo "hi this is hvc0" > /dev/hvc0, and see which one shows up on lish
22:01<linbot>hi this is hvc0
22:01-!-carlsver [] has joined #linode
22:01<chesty>it's hvc0
22:02<chesty>i have console=hvc0
22:02<chesty>and echo hi >> /dev/hvc0 worked
22:03<HoopyCat>it's a service. duh...
22:03<HoopyCat>chesty: start hvc0
22:03*HoopyCat is still not used to this damn thing
22:04<HoopyCat>chesty: (assuming /etc/init/hvc0.conf contains the stuff to start a getty on hvc0)
22:04<chesty>ah, thanks. working
22:04<chesty>you are now on my good list
22:04<chesty>i haven't read a thing about upstart
22:06-!-carlsver [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
22:06<HoopyCat>chesty: some people say it sucks. i'm not yet convinced it doesn't, but it seems to agree with me much of the time
22:07<chesty>what i hate is sometime you have to use /etc/init.d/x restart and sometime restart x
22:08-!-MattWB [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
22:08<HoopyCat>chesty: i believe the goal is to get 100% to the latter
22:09<dominikh>/etc/rc.d/ ftw :P
22:10-!-juque [] has quit [Quit: juque]
22:11-!-juque [] has joined #linode
22:11<sirpengi>or you use redhat/centos/fedora and go `service foo restart`
22:12<blair>hey guys, does anyone know what kind of trouble I'm dealing with in apache with the message "sudo: unable to resolce host elipsis"
22:12<HoopyCat>which also works
22:13-!-blognewb [~blognewb@] has joined #linode
22:14<noir_lord>blair, post the output of "cat /etc/hosts"
22:14<HoopyCat>blair: it can't figure out its name, either via DNS or via /etc/hosts... something like in /etc/hosts should make it happy
22:15<blair> localhost
22:15<blair># The following lines are desirable for IPv6 capable hosts
22:15<blair>::1 ip6-localhost ip6-loopback
22:15<blair>fe00::0 ip6-localnet
22:15<blair>ff00::0 ip6-mcastprefix
22:15<blair>ff02::1 ip6-allnodes
22:15<blair>ff02::2 ip6-allrouters
22:15<blair>ff02::3 ip6-allhosts
22:15<blair>Wow, sorry. I should have pastebin'd that
22:15<blair>Hmm... I believe I did that already HoopyCat. I'll check again.
22:17-!-b0tz` [] has joined #linode
22:17<HoopyCat>blair: a line like " elipsis" should make it happy
22:18-!-Friction[2] [~lol@] has joined #linode
22:18<blair>Hmm, alright, thanks, I'll try that! This doesn't have anything to do with actually accessing he site, right?
22:18<noir_lord>not directly
22:18<blair>Alright, so I don't need to worry about a line for every subdomain or anything?
22:18<noir_lord>crudely you are "telling" the system what it's called and where it lives
22:19<blair>Ahh, perfect. Thank you very much, both of you.
22:19<@pparadis>blair: no, /etc/hosts should contain the fully qualified domain name and the short hostname for that system
22:19<HoopyCat>blair: i believe most everything will work, but apache and sudo will complain a lot if it isn't set. and nope, you just need one.
22:19<@pparadis>other stuff may complain, too
22:19<noir_lord>Hoopy, its also important for email as well (as I found out via a typo..)
22:19<HoopyCat>yeah, mail will be very cranky
22:20<noir_lord>found mail to be very cranky full stop, I owe Brett Kaplan a seriously large jug of beer for the best guide I've ever read on setting it up
22:21<noir_lord> is exceptional :)
22:21<blair>HoopyCat, in your example line, should be if is the primary domain I want to use for my linode, right?
22:21<@pparadis>i shall convery your thanks to him :)
22:21<@pparadis>convey, even
22:21<@pparadis>blair: use the examples here -->
22:22<HoopyCat>blair: yup
22:22<noir_lord>pparadis, that would be cool, I was close to defenestrating my PC and beginning to doubt my sanity :)
22:22<@pparadis>srsly, i'll let him know, i also think he did great work on that guide
22:22<blair>Alright, thanks again everyone, I think I have it!
22:23<HoopyCat>blair: also, props on picking a name that isn't "www", "linode", "mail", or just plain "" :-)
22:23<MikeSeth>dovecot is cranky
22:24<blair>:D stole it from 007 Casino Royale ^^
22:24<noir_lord>pparadis, directly earnt you more business as well since if I get this next project I'll be needing another linode for mail I think
22:24<HoopyCat>it's a *computer!* it needs a *name!*
22:24<noir_lord>names his local machines after planets and remote machines after star trek captains (numbers are cold)
22:24<HoopyCat>"baby" isn't a good baby name :-)
22:24<blair>Any ideas for a good, masculine, mysterious name for my new Laptop? :O
22:25<noir_lord>daedalus :)
22:25<HoopyCat>blair: baby
22:25-!-Friction [~lol@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
22:25<noir_lord>icaraus father (and an engineer!)
22:25<sirpengi>Captain Hammer
22:25<blair>Hmm. I'll have to think :O blairMBP jsut isn't doing it for me anymore.
22:26<noir_lord>MBP == Mac Book Pro, call it soulsucker :)
22:26<noir_lord>or perhaps reality distortion device ;)
22:26<blair>Ahh, touche :P
22:26*encode names his machines after stardates
22:26<HoopyCat>!rfc 1178
22:26<@pparadis>name it Ares: "god of war, bloodlust, weapons of war, the defence and sacking of cities, rebellion and civil order, banditry, manliness and courage"
22:26-!-snubby [] has quit [Quit: autokilled: This host violated network policy.]
22:27<linbot>HoopyCat: timed out
22:27<blair>pparadis: DONE.
22:27<linbot>HoopyCat: Point (0.8174977182, 0.9015592372) is not within the circle. Running total: 4050/5110 (pi is about 3.1702544031)
22:27<@pparadis>blair: it just doesn't get any manlier than that :)
22:27<noir_lord>grew bored of the roman and greek gods for naming stuff and started getting obscure
22:27<linbot>encode: Point (0.6503922884, 0.5891737143) is within the circle. Running total: 4051/5111 (pi is about 3.1704167482)
22:27<HoopyCat>blair: is the official guide. ;-)
22:27<@pparadis>noir_lord: Ares will strike you down.
22:27<blair>I see this being a theme. GOnna name everything after mythical gods ^^
22:27<@pparadis>noir_lord: there will be no mercy.
22:28<noir_lord>Ninhursag will protect me!
22:28<HoopyCat>This essay first appeared in the Communications of the ACM, November, 1989, along with a Gary Larson cartoon reprinted with permission of United Press Syndicate. The text is not subject to copyright, since it is work of the National Institute of Standards and Technology.
22:28<blair>HoopyCat: Oh my, I never knew it was such a science.
22:28<noir_lord>had a machine called that but kept forgetting how to spell it!
22:28<HoopyCat>it originally shipped with a gary larson cartoon. woah
22:29<noir_lord>blair, only mythical gods, what about the real gods? (tongue firmly in cheek)
22:29<@pparadis>oh christ, what in god's name are you talking about
22:29<noir_lord>also had boxes called church, turing and babbage at one time
22:30<HoopyCat>pparadis: gary larson/randall munroe slashfic
22:30<blair>noir_lord: Musn't take it in vain, lest he send lighting bolt towards the datacenter.
22:30<@pparadis>HoopyCat: it was an utterly failed attempt at humor on my part
22:31<blair>This might be a, uhh... sensitive... subject, but should guides posted by Slicehost be fully cross-compatible with Linodes?
22:32<@pparadis>well, we don't write those guides, so i dunno :)
22:32<sub>linux is linux
22:32<blair>sub: that's kinda what I figured. Seems like they should work.
22:32<@pparadis>sub: true, but default installs may differ in some cases
22:32<blair>pparadis: Hmm, yeah. tough.
22:32<HoopyCat>blair: ubuntu 10.04 on slicehost and ubuntu 10.04 on linode are both ubuntu 10.04 :-)
22:33<@pparadis>there really shouldn't be many, if any, obstacles
22:33<sub>pparadis: that's true
22:33<sub>if there are any minor differences, i would imagine that they are easily fixed
22:33<@pparadis>blair: but that said, it's not a sensitive thing at all, if you think something should be covered in the library, please tell us!
22:33<amitz>what? rolling reserve is evil!
22:34<blair>pparadis: It's not that I feel anything needs to be covered, and I mean no offense, but I find SLicehost's guides easier to follow. imagine it's just how my brain works.
22:35<@pparadis>blair: hey, we appreciate all criticism. seriously, if you feel like taking a couple of mintues to drop us an email, we'll consider all input.
22:35<@pparadis>everyone's brain does work a little differently, but i want to get as much input as possible.
22:35<blair>pparadis: I will surely do just that!
22:37<blair>Mainly, I find Slicehost has a more comprehensive "beginner setup" article then Linode. Specifically:
22:37<blair>But I'll say more in said email ^^
22:37<@pparadis>roger that, all feedback appreciated
22:38<HoopyCat>i started getting dizzy at regedit
22:38<noir_lord>has found linode documentation to be excellent and crucially *accurate* (good enough that I've referred to it for none-linode usage)
22:38<noir_lord>nothing worse when doing something for the first time for the guide to be really good but have one crucial typo
22:38<@pparadis>we certainly try very hard to ensure accuracy; things get tested a lot before they go out
22:39<dominikh>I am actually concerned that the Linode guides are *too* good, making people get VPSs even though they lack the skills to administrate one :P
22:39-!-noir_lord [~noirlord@adsl-212-50-172-242.karoo.KCOM.COM] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
22:39<amitz>blair: I see. In sliceost guide, you don't even need to know what you don't know. I think I get what you mean.
22:39<blair>amitz: I think that really is it.
22:39<@pparadis>dominikh: blasphemy! they'll be okay, we have more guides for them to read, then more, then more ;)
22:40<blair>I also find they specify *why* you're doing things a bit more, which in my opinion is jsut as, if not more so, important as *how* to do them.
22:40<encode>I like that linode has a higher barrier to entry. Keeps the really noobish noobs away, that attract things like ddos attacks and compromised servers
22:40<dominikh>encode: it's lower than at any other hoster I know
22:40<@pparadis>blair: a lot of that stuff is actually covered elsewhere in the library, but i have no problem with adding links to and
22:40<encode>dominikh: what's lower where?
22:40<amitz>where as linode's guide is probably an excellent suplement for #linode, people ask question, we refer them to an article.
22:41<dominikh>encode: the barrier to entry
22:41<dominikh>I have to admit though, mainly german hosters that have a higher barrier
22:41<blair>pparadis: That would be great. I think it's like... Slicehost is, it's all in one article, where as Linode is.. You find it as you need it. Both ways certainly have their merits.
22:42<@pparadis>sure, i think blurbs in the two "foundation" guides with links to more comprehensive information would be a good idea for some material
22:42<blair>sounds like he perfect balance
22:43<@jed>itunes on windows is a dum
22:44<blair>jed: Agreed.
22:44<@jed>I can't sort my iPhone's music collection by anything by clicking columns
22:44<@jed>u a dum.
22:46-!-slackmagic [] has joined #linode
22:47<amitz>pparadis: in a related note, a pastebin app in linode would be nice. Something like dmesg | pastebin
22:48<dominikh>there are various pastebins that provide shell scripts (gist, e.g.)
22:48<@pparadis>amitz: that's a good idea
22:48<sub>that exists
22:48<@pparadis>true, but it's still a fun idea
22:48<@pparadis>(at least i think so)
22:48<dominikh>me don't want you to injekt such packages into my install :p
22:48<@pparadis>oh it wouldn't be there by default :)
22:48<dominikh>well then spend your time on whatever you want :p
22:48<amitz>sub: oh?
22:49<@jed>I'm bummed out that I never watched heroes, spock's character looks intense
22:49<@pparadis>maybe could add a "apt-get install blah" pointer to the trigger or something, i dunno
22:49<@pparadis>jed: heroes was good stuff, what i saw of it at least (only a handful of episodes)
22:50<amitz>pparadis: yeah, sometime it's painful to copy paste multi-screen output, not to mention having to paste, then generate the link, then copy-paste the link -_-
22:50<@pparadis>amitz: no doubt. i think i'm gonna whip up a utility over the weekend just for the heck of it.
22:50<blair>I like this idea.
22:50-!-cats [] has joined #linode
22:51<@pparadis>"something to do, choice in software is good, yadada"
22:51<dominikh>I bet you're procrastinating some more important work!
22:51<@pparadis>nah, not really. i'm gonna work over the weekend anyhow, it'll be a fun side thingy
22:52<amitz>jed: If you don't like a spoiled experience, I suggest watching the first season only, or probably up to the second season. But that's just me.
22:52<@jed>ssh linode "something" | pbcopy
22:53<@mikegrb>pparadis: but it's already implemented for too
22:53<blair>I'm gonna be studying all weekend :O Start my new job on Monday, Jr Programmer/Sys Admin :O
22:53<dominikh>whoa, not a bot?
22:53*tjfontaine pets mikegrb
22:53*mikegrb purrs
22:53*linbot dispenses paintball guns
23:00<HoopyCat>mikegrb isn't a bot... if he were, our love would be illegal in 23 states
23:03<blair>would anyone care to tell me if works for them?
23:04<@ericoc>no A record!
23:04<linbot>amitz: It's not just you!
23:04<HoopyCat>blair: when'd you add it to the DNS manager? :-)
23:04<dominikh>nslookup is spitting servfails :p
23:04<blair>Life five minutes ago :O But it's never not worked instantly for me :O And I've been having troubles for weeks
23:04<blair>getting it to work period, I mean.
23:05<@ericoc>dns manager publishes records every quarter-hour soo might need to wait until :15
23:05<@ericoc>assuming you just added it
23:05<mwalling>straterra: i made a mess in the minecart station. sorry. (got stuck)
23:05<blair>ericoc: Alright, perfect, thanks!
23:06<@ericoc>blair: no problem! :)
23:06<@pparadis>mikegrb: ah
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23:12<amitz>say I want to let someone use my linode as a proxy but she is not technologically inclined. How to somehow secure it? (perhaps basic username and password)? My current solution is socks. Any better solution?
23:18<amitz>never mind, it seems implied that Internet Explorer is actually capable of connecting to passworded proxy.
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23:36<Pryon>amitz: Probably the least (long-term) work for you would be to train her how to set up a SOCKS proxy with putty and use that.
23:38<@ericoc>windows makes pptp easy to connect to, you can have a pretty little desktop icon and everything, but it might be a pain to set up the pptpd server
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23:45<petercooper>How big is a "block" in terms of the Linode disk IO graphs? 4KB?
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23:49<encode>I think the blocks are about 3 inches square
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23:53<amitz>Pryon: Least long term work assuming I will use that setup for other things.
23:54<petercooper>encode: Nice, I've been using 83 square yards per second.
23:54<amitz>ericoc: sounds nice but I'll rely on basic squid3 instead. Not sure if IE can use NLTM... *sigh* probably later.
23:54<encode>petercooper: you've been using a rate to measure a size? that's going to cause problems when you try and quantify blocks/second
23:56<petercooper>The only thing causing problems with quantifying blocks/second is knowing quite what a block is considered to be in this case.
23:56<petercooper>Seconds, I've got those licked.
23:57<encode>petercooper: I don't know for sure, but I suspect it would be the default block size of 4096 bytes
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23:58<petercooper>That's what I was hoping and that's what my HDs block size is. I'll go with that for now ;-)
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23:58<encode>have you tried looking in the forums?
23:58<encode>you could ask there, or if you're really desperate, create a support ticket
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23:59<linbot>SelfishMan: Yo momma's so slow, she makes RedHat Network Updates look fast (804:10/4) [murmo]
23:59<petercooper>Last time I wondered about it I did, though I shall have another look now.
---Logclosed Sat Oct 23 00:00:16 2010