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#linode IRC Logs for 2015-08-14

---Logopened Fri Aug 14 00:00:03 2015
00:06*dcraig tickles ikaros around a bit with a large yellowmargin triggerfish
00:06-!-Guest1668 is now known as wheatie
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07:42<+linbot>New news from forum: General Discussion • UNIX Online Training in hyderabad,india,usa,uk <https://forum.linode.com/viewtopic.php?t=12149&p=68108#p68108>
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08:13<+linbot>New news from forum: Web Servers and Web App Development • Nginx How to add modules <https://forum.linode.com/viewtopic.php?t=12148&p=68109#p68109>
08:40-!-thmo [~oftc-webi@78.156.101.155] has joined #linode
08:43<thmo>If one wants to move to a different datacenter, how does one go about that task? (From London to Frankfurt)
08:44<Tea>Balls. My phone's decided to play up and not load my gauth thing.
08:44<Tea>And guess who neglected to write down a scratch code!
08:46<Tea>Oh phew - it got there eventually
09:13-!-descender [~heh@2404:e801:daba:283a:d484:7236:de39:207a] has joined #linode
09:14<trippeh>thmo: either yourself by spinning up a new node in new DC and moving services by hand, or a ticket to get a migration
09:17<thmo>trippeh: it currently hasn't anything running, so i'll open a ticket - Thx :)
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10:58<@Rainbow>date
10:58<@Rainbow>whoops >.
10:58<@Rainbow>* >.>
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11:02<Nivex>Today is Sweetmorn, the 7th day of Bureaucracy in the YOLD 3181
11:02<Nivex>oh, that's ddate.
11:16-!-Wade [Wade@redstone.iwader.co.uk] has joined #linode
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11:51<@jfred>ddate is the best kind of date, so that's okay :P
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12:02-!-mailings [~oftc-webi@host86-164-38-10.range86-164.btcentralplus.com] has joined #linode
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12:03<mailings>hi
12:03<mailings>how many IP's can a VPS hold on lined?
12:03<mailings>*linode
12:03<akerl>!ips
12:03<+linbot>Each Linode comes with 1 public IPv4 address and 1 public IPv6 address. Additional IPv4 addresses are $ 1 per month, and require technical justification. A /64 or /56 of IPv6 can be routed to your Linode at no charge.
12:04<mailings>thanks
12:04-!-Xuefer [~taCo@116.24.240.124] has joined #linode
12:04<mailings>what are the rules in terms of having a mailing system? e.g. like mailchimp
12:04<mailings>to send emails out for both subscribed and unsubscribed members
12:04<akerl>Ruls?
12:05<Xuefer>hi, is Frankfurt better than fremont for users from China
12:05<akerl>mailings: The rules are, roughly speaking, don't break US law and don't be an asshole
12:05<akerl>!speedtest Xuefer
12:05<+linbot>http://www.linode.com/speedtest
12:06<Xuefer>i'm not talking about speed, but the probability of being sniff'ed/limited by china country level firewall
12:06<mailings>well sending emails to non-subscribers is considered as spam, but if the emails going out have all covers (legally), e.g. management link/unsubscribe + address of company at the bottom and DKIM setup, etc... would that be OK?
12:06<akerl>Xuefer: The china-level-firewall part happens in china
12:06<akerl>it happens to all connections in/out of china
12:06<mailings>also management of IPs that get banned and checking of bounce email
12:07<Xuefer>tokyo is very much faster, but will soon will be blocked. fremont is better slower but better than tokyo
12:07<akerl>mailings: You're asking if emails sent to non-subscribers but with covers and unsubscribe links are ok?
12:07<mailings>yeah
12:07<akerl>No, it's not ok
12:08<akerl>It is, as you noted, spam.
12:08<mailings>ok no worries, had to ask ;)
12:08<mailings>thanks for your help ake1
12:08<mailings>*aker1
12:08<mailings>*akerl
12:08<mailings>damn can't spell today
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12:13<Xuefer>accessing linode from China recently: http://tinypic.com/r/20afl02/8
12:14<synapt>do I get some good german bratwurst w/ a frankfurt linode?
12:14<Xuefer>by reading the topic url on this irc i may have figured out the reason. frankfurt is all bar green because it is new, the gov hasn't notice it nor done any filter on it yet
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13:24<+linbot>New news from forum: Web Servers and Web App Development • your opinion <https://forum.linode.com/viewtopic.php?t=12150&p=68110#p68110>
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14:20<tonyyarusso>akerl: It actually is still legal to send unsoliciting e-mail if it meets various requirements like proper identification and having an unsubscribe option, but people don't need to know that ;)
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14:47<VsioZaebis>hi. where can I get cheap ssl cert for apache?
14:48<arlen>ssls.com
14:48<MajObviousman>damn, I thought mailings was mwalling
14:48*MajObviousman wonders what happened to that guy
14:50<wltjr>anyone know if linode has any plans to support jclouds?
14:51<MajObviousman>so, they sell servers
14:51<MajObviousman>servers can run the jcloud software
14:51<MajObviousman>therefore, if you want to install the jclou toolkit thing onto a server that they lease from you, then sure
14:52<arlen>whoa
14:52<MajObviousman>but they don't sell jcloud-specific servers
14:52<MajObviousman>I am not a horse, I do not "whoa"
14:52<arlen>woah?
14:52<kcaj>anyone know if linode has any plans to support apache?
14:52<MajObviousman>arlen: you're in the wrong channel. Try #keanuimpressions instead
14:53<arlen>its empty :(
14:53<MajObviousman>oh? That's a surprise
14:53<MajObviousman>maybe they moved to another network
14:54<+linbot>New news from forum: Email/SMTP Related Forum • Citadel Imap question <https://forum.linode.com/viewtopic.php?t=12151&p=68111#p68111>
14:54<arlen>i will set forth and find them
14:55<kcaj>So it's Friday and I've thought up a new drinking game
14:55<kcaj>We can get drunk and solve reCaptchas
14:56<wltjr>MajObviousman: your missing the point, you use jclouds api to create cloud independant applications, atm linode is not supported :( others are
14:56<wltjr>not something i am asking about running in a linode, I want to use jclouds to interact with linode API
14:57<wltjr>its a cloud independent API
14:57<wltjr>https://jclouds.apache.org/
14:57<wltjr>some people really miss the mark on things...
14:58<MajObviousman>here, I'll use smaller words
14:58<arlen>like asking jcloud if they'll support linode?
14:58<MajObviousman>"no"
14:58<wltjr>I think cloud providers contribute their own contributions to jclouds
14:58<wltjr>marketing...
14:58<MajObviousman>what you are asking about is silly. Linode leases linodes. They don't lease openshift instances or Heroku dynos or anything like that
14:59<MajObviousman>linodes are base servers onto which an enterprising person could then install something like an openshift clone or Flynn or Dokku or whatever
15:00<wltjr>clearly not... I can interact with many cloud providers via jclouds not linode, as linodes API is likely not supported by jclouds, I can check but I bet like jcloud supporting do came from them and others, maybe not
15:00<wltjr>it would be in linodes interest to be supported in jclouds, so anyone using jcloud could create and deploy linodes pragmatically as they do on other providers
15:01<MajObviousman>ok so, linode publishes an API. This is how you make Linode do what you want without clicking on the manager
15:01<wltjr>goes along the lines of being cloud independent
15:01<MajObviousman>you're asking if they support a completely SEPARATE API to do the exact same thing?
15:01<MajObviousman>because it's interoperable?
15:01<wltjr>MajObviousman: do you understand what jclouds is?
15:01<MajObviousman>it's the cloud equivalent of LSB
15:01<wltjr>NO
15:01<wltjr>its a abstract API that supports numerous clouds
15:02<wltjr>so you can move from one cloud to the next with the same API even if the cloud providers API is different
15:02<MajObviousman>you're coming at this from one side. I'm coming at it from the other side
15:03<wltjr>why would someone other than linode bother integrating Linodes API with JClouds? They could just go use one of the many cloud providers already supported, which is just about all the major ones except linode
15:04<arlen>because they prefer linode over the other providers
15:04<MajObviousman>and why would Linode bother integrating somebody else's API with their back end system?
15:04<wltjr>https://jclouds.apache.org/reference/providers/
15:05<MajObviousman>that URl doesn't answer my question
15:05<wltjr>arlen: hard to prefer something that falls behind the others and does no offer features your seeking
15:05<arlen>oh well
15:05<MajObviousman>we clearly have radically different selection criteria for what's important
15:05<wltjr>me being able to be cloud provide indepenent is important
15:06<wltjr>me writing code that works with any cloud provider vs just one is important
15:06<@Rainbow>sounds like they need to support the linode API, not the other way around
15:06<arlen>^
15:06<@Rainbow>Also, cloud independent? Write code that works on any POSIC-compliant system. problem solved.
15:07<@Rainbow>*POSIX
15:07<@Rainbow>Even Windows NT is POSIX compliant to an extent these days
15:07<wltjr>Rainbow: totally missing the point, say you need to deploy a bunch of new servers pragmatically, or if a provider is having an issue ability to move quickly to another
15:07<MajObviousman>wltjr: I'm trying really hard not to say that you're being stupid, but I"ve failed. You're being stupid.
15:07<wltjr>say I want to move from rackspace to linode... that api allows such...
15:07<@Rainbow>How?
15:07<MajObviousman>Note: I do not work for linode, I do not represent them in any fashion.
15:08<wltjr>so it will hinder others ability to use linode
15:08<@Rainbow>I mean you can just DD stuff over....rsync.......scp...sftp....
15:08<MajObviousman>copy your application over like a normal human being would
15:08<MajObviousman>stop being a "I want a single button push for really ahrd things" tard and learn how to do it
15:09<@Rainbow>No need to reinvent the wheel here. If you're talking about deployment, I dunno, I'd consider trying to write a patch to the API that allows it to interact with Linode's API
15:09<MajObviousman>no doubt somebody's already doing that
15:09<MajObviousman>Rainbow: resend? I am umode +G
15:10<wltjr>Rainbow: well I think my question was answered, linode has no plans to be supported in jclouds, unless the community does that
15:10<@Rainbow>sorry MajObviousman , that was an incorrect /msg tab!
15:10*Rainbow meant to say hi to a coworker >.>
15:10<MajObviousman>wltjr: I didn't say they don't have plans
15:11<wltjr>you think large companies like netflix and others do stuff with servers manually...
15:11<@Rainbow>not that I wouldnt say hi to you!
15:11*Rainbow waves hello to MajObviousman c:
15:11*MajObviousman waves shyly at R. Ainbow
15:11<binaryatrocity>we (the community) don't have any idea if Linode plans to commit to jcloud to make it work with their own API
15:11<binaryatrocity>I imagine they have better things to work on for existing customers
15:11<wltjr>company I was just at has more servers than ansible can support and a team of 20 is responsible for that, code automation is big
15:11<binaryatrocity>nothing stopping you or me or anyone else from adding Linode API support to JCloud
15:12<wltjr>jcloud allows code automation of deployments, migrations, etc
15:12<tonyyarusso>"More servers than ansible can support"? What the heck does that mean?
15:12<wltjr>thousands...
15:12<@Rainbow>MajObviousman, R. Ainbow? naw, just Rainbow k thnx :3
15:12<tonyyarusso>Lots of people use Ansible with thousands of servers though.
15:13<MajObviousman>jcloud will ahve the same drawbacks of all the other "One ring to rule them all" software designs: They discard all of the individualism of each service and distill down to a single common denominator that each service may or may not enjoy
15:13<wltjr>its a sony entertainment company... part of the PSN in a sense
15:13<wltjr>a small company
15:14<MajObviousman>that explains so much
15:14<wltjr>nda
15:14*MajObviousman sells his PS3 immediately
15:15<binaryatrocity>without breaking your NDA can you describe for us where your team is finding yourselves limited by Ansible?
15:15<MajObviousman>so, when I made the comment earlier that jcloud is like LSB, I was pretty correct
15:15<wltjr>binaryatrocity: not my team, they could not diclose to me even under the nda I signed
15:15<binaryatrocity>understandable
15:15<wltjr>MajObviousman: no lsb is not an api... its a required set of base applications
15:15<wltjr>completely different
15:15<MajObviousman>sigh
15:16<wltjr>MajObviousman: and JClouds has 2 things a generic abstract API, and then you can go fine graned into any cloud providers specific stuff
15:16<MajObviousman>the CONCEPTS you poor trapped-in-the-box cluebie
15:16<binaryatrocity>well to answer your question directly: we don't know, but if you'd like to use Linode with JCloud I'm sure others would appreciate your contributions to JClouds making it able to consume the Linode API
15:16<arlen>the same but completely different
15:16<MajObviousman>there are many different ways to do thing X, but we're going to suggest a standard of Y for doing X
15:16<MajObviousman>that's EXACTLY what LSB is
15:16<wltjr>binaryatrocity: sure but my time is limited, I am more looking for those who support jclouds, if linode does not and it doesn't happen in near future, that will effect things for me
15:17<arlen>bye
15:17<wltjr>given past experiences I will never be beholden to a single provider\
15:17<binaryatrocity>then maybe Linode is not the provider for you, if you're heart-set on using JClouds, but again, we are the community, opening a support ticket will get you a direct answer from staff
15:17<MajObviousman>you still aren't, jcloud-compliant or not
15:17<wltjr>lsb is not an api...
15:17<MajObviousman>/kick wltjr I'm done with this guy
15:18<binaryatrocity>yeah I don't understand how not having jclouds support makes you beholden to Linode
15:18<wltjr>binaryatrocity: maybe so, though do like linode and have most all my stuff there now
15:18<binaryatrocity>well, I do
15:18<tonyyarusso>wltjr: For very large environments with Ansible, many people either implement proxy/slave Ansible servers and/or use a pull method with configs from a VCS. Should scale basically infinitely if you do it right.
15:18<binaryatrocity>if all of your deployment stuff is written against jclouds
15:18<MajObviousman>then you made a mistake in writing all of your stuff against jclouds
15:18<wltjr>binaryatrocity: because I will be coding stuff against jclouds to be provider independent and can migrate rapidly pragmatically not via manual means
15:18<binaryatrocity>yeah i get it
15:19<wltjr>just sucks the one I am using is not supported, and just about any other I considered and plan to do stuff with is... thus asking if linode had any plans, and for larger companies it could make or break them doing stuff with linode no matter how great linode is
15:19*tonyyarusso still doesn't understand what "support jclouds" even means in this conversation
15:20<wltjr>tonyyarusso: jclouds api be coded around linodes api, so there is an interface to interact with linodes API via jclouds
15:20<binaryatrocity>yeah you have your terms mixed wltjr - jclouds doesnt support Linode, not the other way around
15:21<tonyyarusso>Exactly - you're asking for something on the jcloud side, not the Linode side.
15:21<@Rainbow>^
15:21<MajObviousman>^
15:21<@Rainbow>^
15:21<arlen>^
15:21<@Rainbow>^
15:21<@Rainbow>owo
15:21<@Rainbow>and now it's a bunny with only one ear \o/
15:21<MajObviousman>COMBOBREAKER
15:21<MajObviousman>damn this lag
15:23<MajObviousman>guys, we've been saying it wrong. It's "jclouds". The "s" is mandatory
15:24<MajObviousman>either that or the person who wrote this page has a tenuous understanding of English grammar: https://jclouds.apache.org/start/what-is-jclouds/
15:24<binaryatrocity>yeah i figured that out, browsing through their git repo now
15:24<wltjr>binaryatrocity: same here
15:25<MajObviousman>this feels like a solution in search of a problem
15:25<binaryatrocity>i mean it's an interesting project
15:25<MajObviousman>"Get started without dealing with REST-like APIs or WebServices. Instead of creating new object types, jclouds reuses concepts like maps so that the programming model is familiar."
15:25<binaryatrocity>if you think in terms of like autonomous-corporations where you'd want to code things to spin up servers wherever it's cheapest/available on the fly
15:25<binaryatrocity>with no human interaction
15:25<MajObviousman>I thought REST interfaces were the be-all, end-all of ease of use
15:26<wltjr>binaryatrocity: finally someone on the same page...
15:26<MajObviousman>fashion moves so quickly </lament>
15:30*Rainbow thought SSH was the be all end all
15:30<@Rainbow>;~:
15:30<MajObviousman>works great for ansible
15:31<staticsafe>ansible <3
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15:34<MajObviousman>some part of me is still interested in this statement: < wltjr> company I was just at has more servers than ansible can support
15:34<staticsafe>yeah same
15:35<MajObviousman>ansible doesn't have a cap on how many servers it can communicate with. It has an effective cap on how fast it can talk to servers because of the cost of continually constructing and tearing down SSH connections, plus any cost of maintaining the inventory
15:35<wltjr>I cannot provide any more than what I was told, any questions I asked pertaining to numbers, issues, details I got nda I hate nda's but they are part of the tech world
15:35<MajObviousman>I guess I could see if you have an extremely overgrown inventory source that was dynamic, then that would slow things down
15:36<MajObviousman>but that's not ansible's fault, that's the user's fault
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15:36<MajObviousman>plod: damn that peer fellow and his connection-resetting ways!
15:37<wltjr>I wish I could have gotten something to go on, I do not tend to take people at their word for such things but have to believe that the company ran into issues, but they still use anisble, just have allot of their own stuff doing things it could not as I understand it
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15:47<akerl>lol what have I walked into
15:49<MajObviousman>akerl: just don't. Save yourself
15:50<MajObviousman>but I know you won't. SCROLLBACK AHOY
15:50<akerl>I started scrolling back and now I'm reading about jcloud and now I need an adult
15:51<MajObviousman>" Pointers are like
15:51<MajObviousman>Krackens—real, living things that must be dealt with so that
15:51<MajObviousman>polite society can exist."
15:51<akerl>I hear that openstack will solve all our problems someday
15:51<MajObviousman>ok copy/paste buffer, screw you
15:51<MajObviousman>akerl: the OpenStack rapture will soon be upon us all, at which point every vendor will reveal they are all actually wholly owned subsidiaries of the same multi-national conglomerate
15:52<arlen>alphabet inc?
15:52<akerl>A is for Assimilation
15:53<praetorian>umbrella Inc
16:10<tonyyarusso>wltjr: Sounds like The company had more servers than their admins could support, not more than Ansible can support ;)
16:13<wltjr>tonyyarusso: not sure about that as they made their own tools to get the job done
16:13<tonyyarusso>Actually, this sounds like "Hey, I know how we can seem busier and get more budget!"
16:14<wltjr>but I do not know enough specifics on either side, and I doubt they reached out to ansible the company as they would likely have modified things to support them not sure
16:15<wltjr>tonyyarusso: I think they are budget funded but I don't see them being limited by that by any means and their parent company and other things know how busy they are via stats etc
16:17<wltjr>really not sure why like server count would be so secretive or where ansible did not work, and where they are still using it, but I guess that gives to much detail about their stuff
16:22<tmberg>Hm.. Is it relly impossible to keep your ip if you move to another datacenter? :(
16:22<arlen>yes
16:23<tmberg>Crap.
16:23<MajObviousman>this is why God invented DNS
16:25<tmberg>Does that include ipv6 also?
16:25<retro|blah>Yes.
16:25<tmberg>Meh. :[
16:27<tmberg>Thanks for the clarification.
16:27<MajObviousman>one wonders if people ever use nscd these days
16:28<MajObviousman>I suppose it's more likely to use a local caching BIND instance instead
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16:29<psandin>unbound is the way to go
16:30<tmberg>I wish i wasnt so lazy. :)
16:33<Nivex>I've got nscd and local BIND running. I can't remember why I did that.
16:34<tmberg>Because you dont trust linodes resolvers. ;)
16:34<Nivex>I probably won't put nscd back on when I rebuild
16:34<Nivex>yeah, the nscd may have been when I was still using linode resolver
16:34<tonyyarusso>There are some services that depend on nscd, although I don't really remember why.
16:35<Nivex>eventually I want to switch to powerdns
16:35<Peng>No love for DNSMasq?
16:35<psandin>if my toaster needed DNS
16:35<tonyyarusso>I think ldap stuff needs nscd for something.
16:35<Nivex>dnsmasq only caches from an upstream resolver. I want to fully recurse
16:36<Nivex>oh, yeah, if you're using ldap for nss then you definitely want nscd
16:37<tonyyarusso>Nivex: Can you explain *why* that is exactly though?
16:38<Nivex>because the latency of the LDAP lookups is fairly impressive, and there are a lot of things that do getpwnam() type things with impunity
16:38<Nivex>so the first call goes through ldap and the rest hits the cache
16:38<tonyyarusso>hmm
16:39<Nivex>I gather there are things like nslcd that combine both, but I haven't played with it
16:39<tonyyarusso>What's the difference between nscd's caching and sssd's caching?
16:39<Nivex>sssd might be ok too
16:39<Nivex>Last time I touched any of that stuff was 3-4 years ago on RHEL 5 with nss_ldap
16:55<praetorian> /z 12
16:59<tmberg> /x 13
17:08<tonyyarusso> /v 14
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18:12<praetorian>Doh.
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18:34<zorbs>Anyone have a tut on setting up a fresh Arch Linux linode?
18:35<akerl>Step 1) buy a Linode. Step 2) Pick the Arch Linux image from the dropdown
18:36<zorbs>akerl: I mean, connecting to it and setting it up.
18:36<akerl>https://www.linode.com/docs/getting-started + https://wiki.archlinux.org/
18:37<zorbs>thanks
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18:47<davidd>hello
18:47<davidd>quick question
18:47<davidd>is it possible to run a wow emu in a linode1 vps?
18:48<davidd>for tests only
18:50<psandin>It's a linux system, and Linode doesn't monitor your usage, so draw what conclusions you will
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19:10<Eugene>How would I determine if KVM is providing an ACPI SPCR table?
19:10<Eugene>(yes, I'm doing weird stuff again)
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19:26<VsioZaebis>hi. I got ssl cert and key with passphrase. Now, when I restart httpd it is asking me for the passphrase every time. Is it possible to make it remember the password, this way It does not ask me every time I restart httpd?
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19:26<Peng>VsioZaebis: You can store the unencrypted key on disk
19:26<Ikaros>Or you could remove the passphrase from the key
19:27<VsioZaebis>Ikaros: how can i remove passphrase from they key? does it mean I have to regenerate it?
19:27<Ikaros>Not at all.
19:27<Eugene>Hmmm. http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.comp.emulators.qemu/342980
19:27<akerl>Did you google that question?
19:28<akerl>VsioZaebis: I'll point out for the record that leaving unencrypted keys laying around that let somebody impersonate your web server seems dangerous, but if you google your question you'll get some pretty straightforward answers
19:29<Ikaros>You can remove it but make sure your private key is adequately protected from unauthorized access.
19:29<Peng>running Openssl -> not "adequately protected"
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19:30*Ikaros facepalms
19:31<VsioZaebis>will do thanks
19:31<Ikaros>Use the openssl command to remove it.
19:37<Ikaros>Just remember not to store it anywhere on your filesystem that's publically accessible to the internet (shouldn't be doing that anyway), and that your filesystem permissions are set up on it so that it's not accessible to 'everyone'.
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20:24<ldc>hello
20:24<ldc>is longview supported on opensuse?
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21:11<akerl>there's not an opensuse package, but you should be able to get the tarball running easily enough
21:13<Peng>and the install script has a generic cpan installer, I believe?
21:14<Peng>yeah
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22:02<VsioZaebis>s there a way to run some kind of benchmark tool for web server with mysql/apache/php ?
22:05<akerl>Sure
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23:36<Cromulent>cool apparently the new Intel Xeons E5-46** v3 CPUs support 4 way CPU configs rather than just the old 2 way CPU configs
23:37<Cromulent>used to have to get E7 Xeons for that
23:38<dcraig>go intel!
23:39<Cromulent>I wonder how many VPS providers will start having 4x 18 core 36 thread CPUs in their servers? :)
23:39<Cromulent>I bet that would cost a hefty amount
23:42<Peng>jesus one of those boxes must cost as much as a car and be as powerful as a rack of Linodes ten years ago
23:43<Cromulent>Peng: $7,000 per CPU :)
23:43<Peng>omg
23:43<Cromulent>http://ark.intel.com/products/85766/Intel-Xeon-Processor-E5-4669-v3-45M-Cache-2_10-GHz
23:43<Peng>you could offer VPSes with dedicated CPUs
23:43<Cromulent>yep
23:44<Cromulent>I actually got offered a VPS with dedicated CPU cores in the UK - cost as much as a dedi so I declined
23:48<Peng>takes a bit to pay off $42k in CPU
23:49<Cromulent>true
23:58<Peng>Okay, 72 cores, for $42k. Let's say $8k in other hardware, I dunno. Say you need $15-20k/year in revenue for 3 or 4 years. For 72 VPSes, that's $200-300/year per VPS, or $15-25/month.
23:58<Peng>So you could make give a Linode 1G 'half a core' and 2G and up full cores.
23:58<Peng>could maybe give*
23:59<Peng>I'm probably underestimating the costs, but it sounds like it could be actually practical in a couple years.
---Logclosed Sat Aug 15 00:00:04 2015