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#linode IRC Logs for 2018-05-16

---Logopened Wed May 16 00:00:14 2018
00:08-!-deathspawn [deathspawn@00018048.user.oftc.net] has joined #linode
00:08-!-deathspawn is "http://j.mp/rcdisco" on #linode #gcc #bitlbee
00:08<deathspawn>lol.. Migration to be determined. Check back on April 30
00:09<deathspawn>izzat an easter egg?
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00:13<Peng_>2019? :P
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00:51-!-The-spiki is "Nenad Spirkoski" on #linode #slackware
01:01<Peng_>Does Linode have the ability to make Amazon's NOC fix routing issues?
01:01<Peng_>like can you throw tomatoes. At Seattle.
01:01<Peng_>(Routing issues that affect Linode but are probably not Linode's fault.)
01:02<zifnab>Peng_: i could go shit on their doorstep, but i doubt that would get me much, as it seems to be the normal affair in seattle now
01:05<Peng_>to be less utterly vague, Amazon messed up their CDN/DNS IPv6 routing in Atlanta. https://forums.aws.amazon.com/thread.jspa?threadID=281862&tstart=0
01:05<Peng_>Linode's a victim of it but I haven't wanted to bug them
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01:26-!-NomadJim_ is "Nomad" on #debian #linode
01:29<zifnab>shes found a new toy. its an old linode bracelet thing. https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/TLkMTYDn/MVIMG_20180515_222823.jpg
01:31<zifnab>sadly i don't think noc@ gets you a human at amazon anymore :(
01:34<Peng_>I saw on nanog that peering@ is a bit bucket but an AWS support contract works. Didn't see anything about the regular NOC address though.
01:35<Peng_>I tried the NOC address yesterday
01:36<Peng_>I'm amused and annoyed. :P
01:45<zifnab>honestly i'm suprised the internet works at all
01:46<zifnab>series of generally misconfigured tubes all shooting packets around at light speed
01:46<zifnab>the whole 1.1.1.1 fiasco is amusing, running `mtr` on it from different home ISPs is amusing
01:46<Peng_>:D
01:46<Ikaros>zifnab: Political tussling
01:46<zifnab>comcast seems fine, centurylink it never leaves network, at&t never leaves network
01:47<zifnab>centurylink appears to have all of 1.1.0.0/16 routing to on network
01:47<zifnab>i can't wait until 25.0.0.0/8 is finally public, if that ever happens
01:47<Ikaros>Oh and
01:47<Ikaros>Add one more ISP to the list of "seems fine" - Frontier.
01:47<Ikaros>Completes route no problem
01:48<zifnab>i've seen 25/8 used in k8s clusters before for cluster-internal networking
01:48<Ikaros>lol @ the rDNS for it too
01:48<zifnab>1dot1dot1dot.cloudflare.com?
01:48<Ikaros>Yup
01:48<Ikaros>1dot1dot1dot1.cloudflare-dns.com
01:49<Ikaros>From here...6 hops, RTT 2ms
01:51<zifnab>i have 12ms
01:51<Zimsky>💯
01:52<zifnab>appears they're one of the lucky few with comcast peering in seattle
01:52<zifnab>most shit routes through california
01:52<Zimsky>is that why california is so shitty
01:52<Ikaros>Heh. ISP route is: ISP x4 routers (inc. gateway @ CO, not including local router) -> single Equinix router @ Dallas -> there.
01:52<zifnab>i see 8 comcast hops then them
01:52<Zimsky>zifnab: why is 1111 amusing
01:52<Zimsky>what's this fiasco
01:53<Ikaros>zifnab: Is this the same Equinix hop you see from your end?
01:53<zifnab>Zimsky: 1.0.0.0/8 was originally reserved because it recevies an insane amount of bad traffic
01:53<zifnab>https://labs.ripe.net/Members/gih/content-traffic-network-10008
01:53<Zimsky>oh that
01:53<Zimsky>what about it
01:53<zifnab>so, some ISPs needed arbitrary IP space for things
01:54<zifnab>erm, tethering on some mobile devices, http caching servers, etc
01:54<zifnab>so they picked that network range
01:54<zifnab>because it was unrouted
01:54<Peng_>1.0.0.1/1.1.1.1 work for me, happily. I would have been so upset with my ISP if they hadn't
01:54<Zimsky>shitty router software with hardcoded nonstandard usage of 1/8?
01:54<zifnab>tmo uses a bunch of invalid IPs for router things
01:54<zifnab>on mobile devices
01:54<zifnab>25/8 is one of those
01:54<zifnab>they needed space that wasn't going to overlap with individuals networks
01:55<Zimsky>inb4 stuff is routed to the MoD
01:55<zifnab>ie, cgnat
01:55<Ikaros>Yeah, my mobile network uses addresses in that and other spaces
01:55<zifnab>100.64.0.0/10 should have been used, for some reaosnt hey use 25/8 and 24/8
01:56<Zimsky>this seems like bad op policy
01:57<zifnab>at/t ran a wap cache server at 1.0.0.1 for a while
01:57<zifnab>ancient phones
01:59<Zimsky>I suppose if it works, it works, but the assignments should have been monitored
01:59<Zimsky>or maybe it should just be done properly
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02:01<Rabello>hi
02:01<Zimsky>zifnab: https://www.revolutionwifi.net/revolutionwifi/2011/03/explaining-dhcp-server-1111.html
02:01<Zimsky>lol
02:02<Rabello>am new to linode
02:02<Zimsky>same
02:02<Rabello>can u guide me how to secure the server?
02:02<Zimsky>don't connect it to the internet
02:02<Zimsky>most secure server
02:03<Rabello>great
02:03<Zimsky>but on the chance you do want to connect it to the internet, there's probably a guide on basic security stuff
02:03<Rabello>any tutorial link?
02:04<Zimsky>yes
02:04<Zimsky>https://www.linode.com/docs/
02:04<zifnab>Zimsky: i remember seeing this on wlcs
02:04<Rabello>ok
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02:05<zifnab>Zimsky: cisco also used to use 1/8 and 2/8 in ccna courses
02:05<Zimsky>yes
02:05<zifnab>wish i knew why
02:05<zifnab>should really be using TEST_NET_*
02:05<Zimsky>test net ranges are cool because everyone forgets they exist
02:05<zifnab>i've ran 192.0.2.0/24 at home before becuase reasons
02:05<zifnab>easier to vpn to things if there's no space conflict
02:46<linbot>New news from forum: General Discussion • tarot sin enganos sin mentiras <https://forum.linode.com/viewtopic.php?t=16144&p=76518#p76518>
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03:16<linbot>New news from forum: General Discussion • mandala astrologica tarot gratis <https://forum.linode.com/viewtopic.php?t=16145&p=76519#p76519>
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04:29-!-Kitana is "Yuliya" on #tycoon #swig #supybot #speakup #QuakeForge #powerdns #parisc #ovirt #osm-nl #osm-it #osm-es #osm-ca #OpenBSD #oolite #ntb #linode #kimchi #freebsd #doom64ex #debian-next #debian-boot #debian #ceph-devel #awesome
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05:29<moustafa>this is server for linuex only ? i need server to windows
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05:32<@bmartin>!winode
05:32<linbot>It is possible to run Windows on !kvm Linodes. Here's a set of unofficial instructions: https://github.com/linode/docs/pull/501
05:32<@bmartin>Though it isn't officially supported
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05:42<Zimsky>inb4 it breaks and support tickets are filed demanding why it's not working properly
05:46<@bmartin>:(
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05:54-!-joecool|mobile is "Joe" on #linode #ck
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06:21<dan>hello
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06:21<@bmartin>Hello
06:21<@bmartin>#TooSlow
06:22<Ikaros>To be fair he didn't stay but 20 seconds after saying 'hello'. That's kinda hard to get a response in before they're already typing /quit
06:26<Zimsky>who even types /quit
06:28-!-loadkick [~oftc-webi@115.160.251.154] has joined #linode
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06:28<loadkick>Hello Guys
06:28<@bmartin>Hello there loadkick
06:29<loadkick>my org wants bring down all the linodes and take complete back up!!!
06:29<Zimsky>pls don't bring down all the linodes
06:29<loadkick>how can i achiever that? should consider taking snapshots or how do i achieve that
06:30<@bmartin>https://www.linode.com/docs/security/backups/backing-up-your-data/
06:30<@bmartin>That guide should provide some guidance
06:32<loadkick>idea is to be able to bring back if they decides to bring the server, in turn the app running on it back online again.
06:32<@bmartin>https://www.linode.com/docs/platform/linode-images/#capturing-your-image
06:33<@bmartin>loadkick creating an image of that Linode may be the route you want to go
06:35<loadkick>yeah that sounds good! but how do i start? i don't see section from the url you suggested to create an image
06:37<@bmartin>You go to the Linode Dashboard and select the Linode you want an image for
06:37<@bmartin>then you click edit disk, then create image
06:42<loadkick>i just checked tried to find the create image option but i didn't find it...! can you help me plz
06:42<@bmartin>So when you've gone into the Linode manager, selected the Linode, and then clicked edit disk on the disk containing your info there is no create image button?
06:44<loadkick>yeah... i can see Label, Type, Current Size, New Size
06:44<loadkick>options
06:44<loadkick>but not create image option
06:44<@bmartin>if that is the case we would need you to open a ticket with the support team so we can take a look further though I've just followed the guide linked above regarding capturing an image and created an image on one of my Linodes
06:44<@bmartin>so below do you see save changes and duplicat disk
06:44<@bmartin>directly below new size
06:45<loadkick>Duplicate disk button is appearing but its disabled
06:45<@bmartin>is there a button next to that
06:45<loadkick>i mean its not clickable/grayed out
06:45<@bmartin>what is to the right of that button
06:46<loadkick>only 2 buttons Save Changes, Duplicate disk
06:46<loadkick>but duplicate disk is grayed out
06:47<loadkick>down below the page i see storage stats Info
06:47<@bmartin>Hmm usually there is a create image button next to the duplicate disk button
06:47<@bmartin>can you open a support ticket? This is beyond the help I can provide in our public IRC chat
06:48<loadkick>Thanks for listening to me and helping me out...yeah sure i will do that!
06:48<@jackley>loadkick: do you see this button? http://krl.io/68515
06:48<loadkick>Thank you very much martin
06:50<loadkick>No i don't see it @jackley I'm using chrome browser
06:51<@jackley>loadkick: alright. If you open a ticket, please attach to the ticket a screenshot of what you see on that page.
06:52<@bmartin>^^^ yes thank you. After you open the ticket you can give us the number and we will take a look
06:52<loadkick>https://drive.google.com/file/d/1lwf8DCeY-31ksnd7TRjwaE5W8psAyvqx/view?usp=sharing
06:53<@jackley>perhaps your user doesn't have permission to create images?
06:53<loadkick>I'm the admin
06:54<loadkick>i guess!!! no one else has access to this except me
06:56<@jackley>loadkick: OK, open that ticket, pass us the ticket number, and we'll take a look
06:58<loadkick>sure i will do that!
07:10<loadkick>am i gonna be charged if i open a ticket?
07:10<@bmartin>no
07:10<@bmartin>Our support is included :)
07:12<loadkick>okay Thanks
07:18<loadkick>10479556 ticket ID
07:18<loadkick>plz help!!
07:20<@bmartin>thank you
07:20<@bmartin>we will take a look
07:31<loadkick>i got email you have just sent Martin, i will check if i can get the admin creds for this account
07:31<@bmartin>thanks loadkick!
07:32<loadkick>Thanks anyways!
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07:37<ericoc>"am i gonna be charged if i open a ticket?" <~ feel like that's a new one, question i haven't seen before
07:38<Peng_>"We've updated our Privacy Policy" eh
07:39<Peng_>I can't imagine why
07:39<ericoc>so. many. emails.
07:40<Peng_>:D
07:41<Zimsky>what's a privacy policy
07:42<Peng_>https://www.linode.com/agreement is a novel :(
07:44<Zimsky>Peng_: you should give a crack at reading gdpr in full
07:47<ericoc>Peng_: also if you can read all of this https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/26 and give me like a five sentence summary, that'd be great
07:48<Peng_>ericoc: "Move to Canada"
07:48<Zimsky>what's an american law?
07:48<ericoc>Peng_: <33
07:50<Woet>Peng_: I'd like to talk to your DPO
07:53<Zimsky>https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/bdsg_1990/BDSG.pdf is also a good read
07:57<Peng_>what about https://www.cia.gov/news-information/featured-story-archive/2012-featured-story-archive/CleanedUOSSSimpleSabotage_sm.pdf
07:57<Zimsky>how long did you spend looking for that
07:59<Peng_>74 years
08:00<Zimsky>I raise you https://www.researchgate.net/publication/322530755_Analysis_and_Qualitative_Effects_of_Large_Breasts_on_Aerodynamic_Performance_and_Wake_of_a_Miss_Kobayashi's_Dragon_Maid_Character
08:01<Peng_>Maidragon is, in most but not all respects, an excellent show,
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08:25<TURBO>HLO DO U accept debit card
08:25<Peng_>!billing
08:25<linbot>https://www.linode.com/docs/platform/billing-and-payments
08:26<Peng_>You know, I'm not sure that page answers that.
08:26<Peng_>If you can use it on things that say "credit card"... probably?
08:26<TURBO>just say whether U accept debit card or not??
08:27<@bmartin>as long as it has a visa / mastercard logo yes
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08:39<Zimsky>jesus
08:40<Peng_>People never ask that!
08:40<Zimsky>HLO DO U HV HMMROID CREM PNEG
08:40<Peng_>They always ask about PayPal or Yu-Gi-Oh cards or something
08:40<@bmartin>We are working on the conversion rate of yu-gi-oh to magic the gathering as currency now
08:40<@bmartin>watch the blog for more details
08:41<Peng_>Partnership with MtGox? :D
08:44<Zimsky>bmartin: JST SAY WHETHER U ACCEPT YOO GIO OR NOT???
08:44<@bmartin>:(
08:44<Zimsky>┐( ಠ‿ ಠ;)┌
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09:35<ericoc>> Yu-Gi-Oh cards
09:36<ericoc>when will linode accept dogecoin
09:36<@bmartin>2083
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09:47<joseph>Hello everyone, does anyone here have experience booting from a block storage volume? Copying working bits from a Disk does not work, saying it can't find the MBR but fdisk shows the parition as bootable.
09:52<ericoc>did you copy with pv like https://www.linode.com/docs/platform/block-storage/boot-from-block-storage-volume/ >?
09:52<@sjacobs>joseph: how did you copy the bits?
09:52<@sjacobs>i've done it a few times with a simple dd and it worked just fine.
09:52<@sjacobs>that doc should be correct, as well.
09:52<joseph>Yes, I used pv just like the docs said. I also tested it with dd and the same issue. The funny thing is, if I copy the bits back from the volume to a new disk, that disk will boot just fine.
09:53<ericoc>( i've never done it so imma let sjacobs be the man )
09:53<joseph>The dashboard just gives me the error "Cannot Direct Disk boot a disk with no MBR" when I set the volume as the bootable disk.
09:53<@sjacobs>is the disk partitioned in any special way?
09:55<joseph>The only special thing about this is that it's Windows. But I don't think that's the issue as it works fine from a Disk.
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09:59<@sjacobs>hmm. i don't have any experience with windows volumes.
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10:02<joseph>No problem. Just wondering if anyone had any idea because it's very odd to me that it boots from the disk but not the volume.
10:03<inthenew>Hello. help me. How ping to IP 13.112.138.192 (amazon server) from VPS server https://www.linode.com. Buy or not...
10:04<@sjacobs>inthenew: i'm sorry, are you saying you cannot ping that IP from one of your Linodes?
10:07<inthenew>It's from VULTR provider "64 bytes from 13.112.138.192: icmp_seq=4 ttl=49 time=3.62 ms" It is necessary to measure. Is it less or more?
10:07<Peng_>Where is it located
10:08<Peng_>Amazon, Linode and Vultr have many different locations.
10:08<@sjacobs>https://www.linode.com/speedtest < our locations.
10:08<inthenew>IP 13.112.138.192 - Tokyo amazon
10:09<Peng_>Can you run "ping speedtest.tokyo2.linode.com" from Amazon?
10:09<inthenew>Without a leased server, I can not measure the speed, I'm from Russia, I decide to rent a server from you or not
10:11<Peng_>Latency between Amazon in Tokyo and Linode in Tokyo should be extremely low, but I haven't checked.
10:11<@sjacobs>i'll give it a check.
10:11<inthenew>It is necessary to learn a ping from tokyo2.linode.com to IP 13.112.138.192 - Tokyo amazon, help)
10:16<@sjacobs>inthenew: http://termbin.com/xvxi
10:16<Peng_>Nice :D
10:16<@sjacobs>you should still test it yourself, but those are the results i got.
10:17<inthenew>beautiful, thanks, with respect from Russia)
10:25<gparent>everyone knows Amazon just rebrands linodes
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10:37<linbot>New news from forum: Current Betas • Linode Block Storage (Fremont beta) <https://forum.linode.com/viewtopic.php?t=15333&p=76520#p76520>
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11:26<linbot>New news from blog: Linode’s New Bug Bounty Program – Now on HackerOne <https://blog.linode.com/2018/05/16/linodes-new-bug-bounty-program-now-on-hackerone/>
11:28<Cromulent>humble bundle has a DevOps book bundle at the moment if anyone is interested
11:28<Cromulent>and a Python bundle but that is less interesting to me
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11:48<linbot>New news from forum: Feature Request/Bug Report • Network usage graphic incorrect. <https://forum.linode.com/viewtopic.php?t=16146&p=76521#p76521>
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11:58<linbot>New news from forum: General Discussion • horoscopo de hoy y tarot gratis <https://forum.linode.com/viewtopic.php?t=16147&p=76522#p76522>
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12:04-!-ChanServ changed the topic of #linode to: Linode Community Discussion | https://www.linode.com/community | Linode’s New Bug Bounty Program – Now on HackerOne: https://blog.linode.com/2018/05/16/linodes-new-bug-bounty-program-now-on-hackerone/
12:08<linbot>New news from forum: General Discussion • tarot osho zen gratuit <https://forum.linode.com/viewtopic.php?t=16148&p=76523#p76523>
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13:08<linbot>New news from forum: General Discussion • Just want to say Hi. <https://forum.linode.com/viewtopic.php?t=16149&p=76524#p76524>
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13:23<Eugene>Every day I'm Linodin'
13:28<linbot>New news from forum: Feature Request/Bug Report • Network usage graphic incorrect. <https://forum.linode.com/viewtopic.php?t=16146&p=76525#p76525>
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13:58<linbot>New news from forum: Feature Request/Bug Report • Network usage graphic incorrect. <https://forum.linode.com/viewtopic.php?t=16146&p=76526#p76526>
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14:38<linbot>New news from forum: General Discussion • tarot embarazo 2017 <https://forum.linode.com/viewtopic.php?t=16151&p=76528#p76528>
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15:21<FluffyFoxeh>https://www.privateinternetaccess.com/blog/2018/05/today-the-senate-votes-to-save-net-neutrality/
15:25<ericoc>ironic that my office blocks PIAs website
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15:53<arby>e
15:54<arby>Out of curiosity ... are any US-based customers in here signing this new Linode 'Customer Agreement', which states: "As a result of certain regulations and laws imposed by the European Parliament and the Council of the European Union, all customers are required to execute the EU Model Contract" ?
15:55<arby>To my read that clause applies to all, not just EU-located end-users, despite being 'under' a "EU Considerations" subsection title.
15:58<Cromulent>arby: if you have EU customers it applies to you
16:00<arby>Cromulent: That's how it should work. That's not how the language reads.
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16:19<relidy>FWIW, broken header image in the docs: https://www.linode.com/docs/web-servers/apache-tips-and-tricks/configure-modsecurity-on-apache/
16:20<@scrane>Whoops! I'll reach out to the Docs team for that. Thanks for sharing, relidy!
16:21<relidy>Thanks for passing it along, scrane. It's certainly not a high priority thing, but I figured someone would be interested.
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16:24<@scrane>Totally get that.
16:37<@mcintosh>arby: I don't have any real knowledge as it relates to the policy changes but I've passed along your feedback
16:39<@gjjansen>hm
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17:01<@mcintosh>relidy: that's fix now - thanks again!
17:01<@mcintosh>fixed, even
17:01<relidy>!point mcintosh
17:01<linbot>relidy: Point given to mcintosh. (36)
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17:20<@mcintosh>arby: can you reach out to privacy@linode.com with your concerns? we'll be happy to make sure things are cleared up
17:24<Woet>arby: congratulations, you're the first person reading the terms of service
17:26*FluffyFoxeh read them
17:27<millisa>There might have been prizes.
17:27<millisa>https://techtalk.pcpitstop.com/2012/06/12/it-pays-to-read-license-agreements-7-years-later/
17:32<FluffyFoxeh>heh yeah I heard about that
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18:55<William>Hi. I just logged on to my Linode Manager, and was presented with a new TOS and privacy policy. Is there a diff available for it?
18:57<knitcap>How do you mean?
18:58<William>What has changed in the new policies?
18:58<@scrane>William We don't have a diff available for that.
18:58<dzho>knitcap: a diff is short for "difference" and is a command commonly used to show the differences between two versions of something.
18:58<@scrane>The policy is substantially different, and a diff would not provide much additional context.
18:59*dzho wonders if there's a version of it in incoming email somewhere
18:59<linbot>New news from forum: General Discussion • How Much Are Cna Classes <https://forum.linode.com/viewtopic.php?t=16152&p=76529#p76529>
18:59<William>Looks like a moderator needs to kill off a spammer.
19:00<dzho>maybe
19:02<William>By the way, where you disclose Google Analytics, Google recommends linking to https://www.google.com/policies/privacy/partners/ to comply with their TOS (section 7).
19:03<arby>mcintosh: Will do. Woet: I read them all. Never ceases to amaze me what folks blindly agree to ...
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19:24<Eugene>My worthless opinion: Services (like Linode) which update their ToS and do not provide an opt-out or way to change / remove services (eg, delete a Linode) without agreeing to the new Terms are in violation of the entirre point
19:24<Eugene>s/violation/missing/
19:25<Eugene>Wow, I can't english
19:25<Eugene>Try that again: If you require agreement to the new ToS without providing an opt-out path (or way to migrate data away without agreeing), then the agreemtn is invalid because you are effectively holding my data hostage
19:26<Eugene>I refuse to be bound by the GDPR or any of its provisions, as I am not an EU citizen, business, entity, etc, so all of this BS about "accepting the new GDPR terms" is pretty stupid
19:26<Eugene>But I Am Not A Lawyer, so whatever
19:27<frogzilla>But you previously accepted any changes in the ToS at anytime, so you were bound way before
19:28<frogzilla>and im sure you can always send an email to linode's support to get your data erased
19:28<smallclone>i mean, having it basically block you from getting into the manager, without warning, is pretty annoying
19:29<Eugene>That is specifically my complaint ^
19:30<frogzilla>i didnt like it either.. but im in the EU lol
19:30<Eugene>if you want to get into the Contract Law of it, the Customer Agreement (https://www.linode.com/agreement) mentions the EU Model Contract several times, but does not actually give the terms of this thing I have supposedly agreed to. It goes on to say (in Definitions 15.14) that the contact is "as provided by us to our Customers in the European Economic Area."
19:30<Eugene>How in the HELL does that make sense to bind your other customers by an agreement you received FROM a customer?!
19:31<smallclone>it says by them, to their customers
19:31<Eugene>"us" is defined as Linode, LLC.
19:32<arby>Eugene: the model contract -> https://manager.linode.com/account/eu_model
19:32<smallclone>i believe so, it usually is in legal documents like this though i haven't looked at the copy they emailed me
19:33<smallclone>i don't even know what i agreed to tbh, i don't have anything all that important on linode any more and i was more in a rush to get the the prompt out of the way
19:33<Eugene>arby - I believe that is inaccessible unless I have already agreed. Which I did do, but without understanding what I was being shown (which is a valid way to get it invalidated... I'm seriously considering doing so now)
19:33<arby>The most troublesome language: "Liability
19:33<arby> The parties agree that any data subject, who has suffered damage as a result of any breach of the obligations referred to in Clause 3 or in Clause 11 by any party or subprocessor is entitled to receive compensation from the data exporter for the damage suffered. "
19:33<arby>Eugene: I didn't agree -- and have access to it.
19:33<Eugene>And I am reluctant to open the Manager at all now that i realize this
19:34<arby>The GDPR regs apparently just kicked -- I'm getting dozens of these "Updated Terms of Service" notices from companies of all shapes & sizes.
19:34<arby>kicked *in*
19:34<Eugene>I know that the GDPR is practically meaningless to me, but it really annoys me how poorly companies can handle a contract change
19:35<arby>amen to that
19:35<Eugene>I received the email notification DAYS AFTER the manager made me click-through
19:36<smallclone>yeah if you're opening the linode manager there's at least a fair chance you may be dealing with something urgent, or at least time-sensitive
19:36<arby>Ironically, one of the intended outcomes of GDPR normalization is *simplicity* of contract languages, etc. Missed on THAT one ... tho, arguably, this spaghetti *is* cleaner than previous EULAs
19:37<Zimsky>Eugene: you make good points
19:37<Eugene>That was indeed the case when I opened Manager - I had a DNS zone that was broken
19:37<Zimsky>I don't say that lightly either
19:37<Eugene>Didn't even read, just clicked yes
19:37<Eugene>Only today when I get this email do I realize what that was
19:37<arby>The way this reads is that even if you are "only" a US linode customer -- that "sometime, somehow, someway" your data may touch the EU -- and therefore you're bound by this Contract -- and subject to these mystical potential liabilities from "over there".
19:38<arby>Bad enough if you're an individual -- for companies, umm ... no. Not without a lawyer taking a better look.
19:38<Eugene>Yup,and that's horrifying to me as a internat political activist
19:38<Eugene>EU can bite my shiny metal ass
19:38<frogzilla>lol
19:38<Zimsky>nah
19:39<Zimsky>the EU will burn you at the stake
19:39<Zimsky>never mind biting your arse
19:39<SleePy>Needs a diff
19:39<Zimsky>you need a diff
19:40<SleePy>I do need a diff. Tell me whats changed in the docs a lot easier :D
19:40<Zimsky>but mr eugenics, if you don't like the EU, don't have anything to do with them or their people?
19:40<Zimsky>seems pretty simple to me
19:41<Eugene>I try not to - but the domestication of EU law by US companies for domestic transactions is maddening
19:41<Zimsky>the same stuff can be said about americans and their laws, with 'DMCA this' and 'US federal code that'
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19:42<Eugene>True, except IANA and ICANN are American companies, and they provide the core internet services under a contract to the US Department of Commerce. The internet really is "owned" by the USA
19:42<Zimsky>and america waving it's big legal dick in everyone's faces
19:42<arby>Being jointly named as a signatory to a contract with Linode is a nice touch. Not.
19:43<Eugene>Oh no, that's a lie. That contract ended in 2016!
19:43<Zimsky>Eugene: not sure that's gonna hold water
19:43<Zimsky>I feel like it already demonstrably doesn't
19:43<arby>Nope. It's part of the EU Model Contract. The 'new' one.
19:44<Eugene>Zimsky - ICANN & IANA control names & numbers. They used to do this under Contract to the USA. They are additionally US Companies. Ergo, anything you do using a name or number assigned by those companies(anything on public zones) is within the jurisdiction, arguably, of the US.
19:44<Zimsky>what's so bad about GDPR anyway, it's actually pretty neat, and organisations can go fuck themselves
19:44<Eugene>Zimsky - this position is what my father's AlterNIC protest was centered on ;-)
19:45<Eugene>I have no problem with the wording of the GDPR itself - i think it is a good piece of common-sense regulation. I object to the blind acceptance of an EU regulation by US entities, and piss-poor contract drafting.
19:45<Eugene>"Go back and try again"
19:45<Zimsky>you only need to accept EU regs if you do business in the EU and want to retain your legal presence there
19:45<Zimsky>otherwise you can just not care
19:46<Eugene>That's not what the Linode Customer Agreement says
19:46<Zimsky>I'm talking about organisations
19:46<Zimsky>not individuals using services of organiastions
19:46<Zimsky>organisations*
19:46<nate>The problem with the GDPR is there's the version the EU says the world has to follow and then there's the interpretation that other nations are telling people they can follow
19:47<nate>main reason being EU's list of PII is different than other nations
19:47<Zimsky>nate: link/ref?
19:47<Eugene>Hang on, here's an even BETTER objection to the Linode Customer Agreement: The protections and obligations imposed on us by the Privacy Shield do not require you to review or execute any agreements other than this Agreement and the Privacy Policy.
19:47<Eugene>As a result of certain regulations and laws imposed by the European Parliament and the Council of the European Union, all customers are required to execute the EU Model Contract and/or other appropriate instruments that provide an adequate level of protection in compliance with the EU GDPR and/or the US Privacy Shield frameworks.
19:47<Eugene>Pick one, either I do not have to review or execute the EU Model Contract, or I do!
19:47<Eugene>You can't tell me to do both
19:47<Zimsky>they just did cob
19:48<nate>Zimsky: I'm talking from dealing with legal departments of US companies at the moment. EU basically says the world needs to follow it "on behalf of it's citizens", here in the US most legal dept's are facing it much like the cookie law (ie; chances of EU doing anything through trade laws would likely fall through)
19:48<nate>or just doing what facebook did and 'moving' their international privacy governing body to a US location
19:48<nate>If I were to follow EU's requirements, it would mean I literally need to be 'open to' modifying any of my access logs per request of an EU visitor because EU dictates IP addresses fall under PII
19:49<nate>In the US, IP addresses do not fall under PII
19:49<dzho>This Internet is Known To the State of California to Cause Cancer
19:49<Eugene>In the end, my opinion is worthless and I'm not going to actually move my business away from Linode over this. (though I am working on moving away from it for other reasons) If anybody ever does try to give me shit, I'll just tell them to sue me. So far, nobody has gotten one to stick, so.... urmom
19:49<Zimsky>nate: I feel the same way when someone tells me something is illegal under US law and that they're going to sue me
19:49<linbot>New news from forum: Sales Questions and Answers • VPS Enquiry <https://forum.linode.com/viewtopic.php?t=16138&p=76530#p76530>
19:50<Zimsky>nate: then I remember I'm not under US law and don't need to care
19:50<Eugene>You might actually care if they try to seize your domain as the result of a judgement
19:50<Eugene>See above re: IANA and ICANN being US corporations
19:50<Zimsky>what domain
19:50<nate>Zimsky: That doesn't necessarily mean they can't. Like I mentioned there are trade agreements that allow cross-nation legal cases to occur as long as they meet requirements
19:50<Eugene>Shrug, you tell me :-p
19:51<arby>Linode's language says that if you change domicile to EU, then you agree that they can "appoint our (unspecified) Affiliates and/or Subprocessors to assist in the provision of the Linode Services". I'd guess those are, then EU, entities (?). If so, why we're expected to agree to any EU contract/language etc prior to such a domicile changes, dunno.
19:51<nate>But in the case of the EU it would probably be hard for them to do so, and I think facebook realizes this as well since they did what they did
19:51<arby>Back to Eugene's "badly written contracts"
19:51<Zimsky>nate: and if someone wishes to try that and wade through the swamp of red tape, they're welcome to
19:51<nate>arby: See that's kinda where the clusterfuck really starts
19:51<Eugene>lol what
19:51<Eugene>!point Zimsky
19:51<linbot>Eugene: Point given to zimsky. (0) (Biggest fan: eugene, total: 11)
19:51<Eugene>Swamp tape is best tape
19:51<Zimsky>ayyy back to 0
19:52<nate>-I-, as an indivdual, to what I've been told, am supposed to get an EU located 'representative' (by EU's rules mind you) because I have clients in the EU I've done contracting work for
19:52<Zimsky>so why aren't you doing it?
19:52<Zimsky>you gotta comply with the law nate
19:52<nate>I'm not an EU citizen, and I've been told by US attorney's I do not. Now if the EU wants to give me the money it would cost for me to hire such a person, I'll humor them and do so
19:52<nate>otherwise fuck that
19:52<nate>lol
19:52<Eugene>My "position" on EU customers is that I only accept money in USD, and I do not ship or deal with the EU directly, so fuck right off
19:53<nate>Eugene: basically the same here
19:53<Eugene>If you happen to be a EU resident giving me money that is your problem
19:53<Zimsky>and there's my point about legal presencec
19:53<nate>Mind you I've always treated all my client information securely anyways, long before GDPR was ever even conceived
19:53<Zimsky>FUCKING WORDS
19:53<Eugene>Words indeed.
19:54<arby>And "we" are all writing in for the opt-OUT privacy exxeption, right? (really? opt-OUT? in 2018?)
19:54<Zimsky>you can ignore the regulation but you could then not technically do business in the EU
19:54<Zimsky>and if someone cared enough, would put measures in place to try and legally stop you from doing so
19:54<Zimsky>like what already happens with sanctioned companies
19:55<nate>see that's just it, by all intents I'm not doing business "in" the eu, I have no presence in the EU, I'm doing business -with- people -from- the EU
19:55<nate>:P
19:55<Zimsky>think more in terms of what actually happens
19:55<Zimsky>then you are free to ignore the regulation and do as you wish
19:55<nate>and that's where so many legal loopholes open up because of the phrasing and different interpretations in different nations
19:55<Zimsky>but don't forget nate, that hosting providers, payment processors, and other secondary services you use might actually care about this compliance
19:56<rsdehart>well, it all depends on what the definition of the word "is" is
19:56<Zimsky>rsdehart: it is enough.
19:56<Zimsky>more than enough
19:56<nate>Zimsky: If linode wants to do it that's their choice, I don't work for them or through them so
19:56<arby>... until you agree to be contractually bound at the hip with them.
19:57<Zimsky>what
19:57<Zimsky>nate: linode isn't the only "hosting provider"
19:57<Zimsky>in case it's not clear
19:57<nate>arby: in what way? Only contracts I do are work contracts and I doubt linode is gonna hire me for remote work :P
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19:58<arby>nate: simply that if you DO sign the new agreements, you're bound by the EU Model Contract, jointly as one of 2 parties (you & Linode), per contract. Regardless of your actual domicile, since: "Linode is an international organization headquartered in the United States of America (the "US"). By utilizing a Linode Resource, you expressly consent to Linode's access, maintenance, transmission and/or use of your Personal Data outside of your country of residence,
19:58<arby>regardless of location or jurisdiction. "
19:59<Zimsky>yer ma's bound by the EU model contract
19:59<linbot>New news from forum: Sales Questions and Answers • VPS Enquiry <https://forum.linode.com/viewtopic.php?t=16138&p=76531#p76531>
20:00<nate>arby: I've been offered no form of agreements with linode at all, past or present, nor ever explicitly "signed" anything other than a general ToS agreement (which would need to be more for any sort of GDPR lock in). The day linode tries to get me to literally sign anything just to have a VPS here is probably the day I move elsewhere lol
20:00<arby>nate: Have you logged into your linode portal of late?
20:01<nate>arby: About a week ago, the old portal anyways (not sure what the status of the 'new' manager is)
20:01<nate>also back in a few, need food, stomach grumbles have become too much
20:01<arby>nate: 'mine' is "Policy Changes
20:01<arby>We have recently changed some of our policies. Please read through the updated versions below and accept them. "
20:01<arby>mangia!
20:01<Zimsky>oh god nate what if the food is not made in the USA
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20:06<@mcintosh>i encourage anyone with concerns about the noted policy changes to email privacy@linode.com with your concerns
20:07<arby>mcintosh: I have. Waiting on a response. Will be ... interesting ... now that 'legal' has cursorily chimed in with a 1st "no way" ...
20:09<dzho>it's a good thing we had 2 years to get this sorted
20:09<Zimsky>^
20:10<arby>Define "sorted"
20:11<dzho>seriously?
20:11<Eugene>AWS has a very nicely sorted GDPR info center: https://aws.amazon.com/compliance/gdpr-center/
20:11<arby>:facepalm:
20:12<Eugene>And they didn't require me to agree to anything new on sign-in
20:14<dzho>because they probably had a "we can change these terms when we want and you'll like it" section
20:14<arby>so does Linode for that matter ....
20:14*dzho shrugs
20:14<dzho>arby: I guess the gig's up for you already then!
20:15<arby>? um, ok
20:15<dzho>"♬ I like big EULA's, I cannot lie ♫ "
20:16<Zimsky>it's quiet time now
20:16<Eugene>AWS' Service Terms were updated yesterday and make no direct references to the GDPR that i could find. https://aws.amazon.com/service-terms/
20:16*dzho is still pouting because all we got from Zimsky was a ^ and not even a point
20:17<Zimsky>!unpoint dzho
20:17<linbot>Zimsky: Point taken from dzho! (5)
20:17<Zimsky>don't expect points to matter
20:17<Eugene>"Europe" is only mentioned in the context of AWS Import/Export, which is a niche service involving physical media (so reasonable to have there)
20:17<dzho>so cruel, so wanton
20:18<Eugene>57.10 Acceptable Use; Safety-Critical Systems. Your use of the Lumberyard Materials must comply with the AWS Acceptable Use Policy. The Lumberyard Materials are not intended for use with life-critical or safety-critical systems, such as use in operation of medical equipment, automated transportation systems, autonomous vehicles, aircraft or air traffic control, nuclear facilities, manned spacecraft, or military use in connection with live combat. However,
20:18<Eugene>this restriction will not apply in the event of the occurrence (certified by the United States Centers for Disease Control or successor body) of a widespread viral infection transmitted via bites or contact with bodily fluids that causes human corpses to reanimate and seek to consume living human flesh, blood, brain or nerve tissue and is likely to result in the fall of organized civilization.
20:19<Zimsky>nuclear facilities and manned spacecraft
20:19<Zimsky>cool
20:19<Zimsky>what about non-viral infections
20:19<dzho>https://www.drawnandquarterly.com/terms-and-conditions
20:19<linbot>New news from forum: General Discussion • tirage du tarot en croix gratuit <https://forum.linode.com/viewtopic.php?t=16153&p=76532#p76532>
20:20<Zimsky>le en rue de croix la baguette oui
20:21<dwfreed>Eugene: guess the airborne zombie virus is right out
20:21<Zimsky>dwfreed: you really should see someone about that
20:21<Zimsky>it's treatable now.
20:22<Eugene>No no no, if the zombie apocalypse happens then you ARE allowed to use AWS Lumberyard for military purposes
20:23<Eugene>But not until
20:23<Zimsky>idk i think zombies are more softlayer kind of folk
20:23<Zimsky>or ovh
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20:28<Eugene>Oh phew. I did *not* agree to the new policy on my personal account
20:30<Zimsky>what would have happened if you did, Eugene?
20:30<Eugene>I would have agreed to it, so I can't bitch as righteously
20:30<dwfreed>Eugene: it says transmission by bite or bodily fluid only
20:30<Zimsky>my transmission is automatic though
20:30<Zimsky>so how does that factor in, dwfreed?
20:30<Eugene>dwfreed - that's a great point actually.
20:30<arooni>so it looks like i wont need one of my vps'sanymore; but i'm wondering if theres a way i could save it off and restore it at some point in the future.
20:31<Zimsky>dd them disks
20:31<Eugene>arooni - Images system, or dd the disk (from Rescue Mode) to somewhere safe
20:31<dwfreed>Images only works if the usage is 2 GB or less
20:31<arooni>are images included? or is it an extra
20:32<millisa>arooni: https://www.linode.com/docs/platform/disk-images/copying-a-disk-image-over-ssh/
20:32<dwfreed>arooni: Images is free
20:32<arooni>ooh interesting
20:32<millisa>(though you'd be doing it in reverse)
20:33<@gjjansen>Adds up.
20:39<linbot>New news from forum: Sales Questions and Answers • VPS Enquiry <https://forum.linode.com/viewtopic.php?t=16138&p=76533#p76533>
20:44<Eugene>I went ahead and opened a ticket over the incompatibilities between sections 4.1 and 4.2.1 of the Customer Agreement, and asking for clarification on whether I can continue to use Linode services without agreeing to the new policy
20:45<Eugene>Reading through section 4 again, I think it may be implied (but not stated) that if I am not in the EU then that "Consideration" does not apply to me.... which is why the /account/policy page has the "Are you in the European Union or European Economic Area?
20:45<Eugene>" question
20:46<Eugene>If you choose No there it doesn't show you the EU Model Contract, so you can't comply with section 4.2.1. But Section 4.1 says you don't have to do that anyway, so wtf guys
20:46<arooni>so to shut down the linode do you get a credit prorrated i can use for other linodes? and is it automatic or do you have to ask for it
20:47<Eugene>It also appears that I can just navigate to /linodes without agreeing to the policy change
20:47<millisa>arooni: are you on the old style billing?
20:47<Eugene>arooni - nope, you are charged for as long as the Linode "exists" because your RAM and Disk Space is still reserved for your usage
20:47<Zimsky>Eugene: are you handy with bird law?
20:47<arooni>millisa: i am in fact on old billing
20:47<Eugene>Zimsky - actual birds? I have a home flock, yes.
20:48<arooni>Eugene: well if i shut down the linode ; i no longer need that linode
20:48<Eugene>We sell chicken and duck eggs from our home, and have all the relevant permits from the state of Washington
20:48<arooni>does it depend on which billing system i'm on?
20:48<Eugene>arooni - I'm not your real mom; I'm just telling you how the billing works. If the thing exists you will be charged for it. If you delete it, you won't be.
20:48<millisa>It's been a while since I've seen it, but on the old style billing setup, I think it showed you the amount it was crediting back when you go to remove the linode from the account.
20:49<arooni>Eugene: maybe i'm being imprecise with my communication i meant by shutting down, deleting it. shutting down i understand is something else
20:49<Zimsky>Eugene: I like a good duck egg
20:49<arooni>is there any advantage to staying on the old billing
20:49<Eugene>Not really, no.
20:50<Zimsky>being able to confuse employees
20:50<millisa>old style billing reference: https://www.linode.com/docs/platform/prepaid-billing-and-payments-legacy/#removing-services
20:50<dzho>you get to brag about being a grandfather
20:50<Eugene>Shit, I'm not even a Dad
20:50<arooni>it does bring me happiness
20:50<dzho>oh, wait, that's being grandfathered
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20:50<arooni>thx millisa
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21:50<linbot>New news from forum: General Discussion • tarot magico del amor gratis <https://forum.linode.com/viewtopic.php?t=16154&p=76534#p76534>
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22:10<dionajipradipta>hello
22:10<dionajipradipta>is billing support here?
22:10<dionajipradipta>thanks
22:16<millisa>this is a community channel.
22:16<millisa>if it's not specific to your account, someone may be able to answer
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22:25<Sun>hello
22:25<millisa>greetings
22:26<Sun>staff on ?
22:26<millisa>!ops
22:26<linbot>Users with ops are employees of Linode, and know what they're talking about. The rest of us are the ever-so-helpful(?) community. Official Linode contact information: https://www.linode.com/contact
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22:26<millisa>!ask
22:26<linbot>If you have a question, feel free to just ask it -- someone's always willing to help. If you don't get a response right away, be patient! You may want to read http://alexfornuto.com/how-to-ask-for-help-on-irc/
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23:00<linbot>New news from forum: General Discussion • tarot visa barato 5 euros <https://forum.linode.com/viewtopic.php?t=16155&p=76535#p76535>
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23:20<linbot>New news from forum: General Discussion • sites pour plan cul <https://forum.linode.com/viewtopic.php?t=16156&p=76536#p76536>
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23:52<@gjjansen>Irony is that there is staff here all the time.
23:52<@gjjansen>I just hoped they would ask. lol
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---Logclosed Thu May 17 00:00:15 2018