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#mythtv IRC Logs for 2002-10-23

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10:28<tss>howdy
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12:52-!-Universe [~Yeah@pwc2-hs-nk.bbnplanet.com] has joined #mythtv
13:07<Universe>anyone using an ATI card in here?
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13:50<Universe>hey skitzo..
13:51<mdz_>Universe: I'm using an ATI card
14:03<Universe>AIW or just a ATI TV card?
14:40-!-OrangeSun [~orangey@London-HSE-ppp3539306.sympatico.ca] has joined #mythtv
14:40<OrangeSun>hmmm.
14:40<OrangeSun>for some reason, my mythtv won't go beyond channel 125..
14:40<OrangeSun>even though I'm using a satellite!
14:40<OrangeSun>any idea why?
14:41<Universe>TV turner limitation?
14:44<OrangeSun>well, yeah.. my tv tuner *is* limited to 125 channels!
14:44<OrangeSun>but this thing shouldn't be using my tuner at all!
14:45<Universe>what?
14:45<mdz_>Universe: AIW
14:46<Universe>mythtv uses your turn for channels
14:46<Universe>tuner
14:47<Universe>mdz_: Are you using the km driver?
14:47<OrangeSun>universe: well, how do people use satellite then?
14:47<OrangeSun>satellite STARTS at 100!
14:48<mdz_>Universe: yes, but not exclusively
14:48<mdz_>and not with mythtv yet
14:49<Universe>ahh.. ok
14:49<mdz_>OrangeSun: you use your satellite tuner
14:50<OrangeSun>mdz: this is how it goes: I want mythtv to run a program (change #) whenever I put in a channel number..
14:50<OrangeSun>and it *does*
14:50<OrangeSun>but ONLY all the way up to 125!
14:50<OrangeSun>so, the tuner is *restricting* my ability to change channels with my satellite tuner..
14:50<OrangeSun>therefore I can't use the ep guide.
14:50<OrangeSun>I can't record..
14:50<OrangeSun>it all stinks : )
14:52<mdz_>OrangeSun: aha
14:52<OrangeSun>mdz: but there must be *some* way to disable the tuner restriction.. I mean, people use this thing to watch satellite!
14:53<OrangeSun>and there isn't a tuner in the western hemisphere programmed to go to 999
14:53<mdz_>OrangeSun: how are you defining the channels in mythtv?
14:53<mdz_>OrangeSun: are you using xmltv?
14:53<OrangeSun>mdz: indeed.
14:54<OrangeSun>and xmltv goes all the way up into like 800..
14:54<mdz_>OrangeSun: so you have all of those channels in your channel table?
14:54<OrangeSun>mdz: where's my channel table? moment lemme go check with phpadmin
14:55<mdz_>OrangeSun: in the database
14:55<OrangeSun>yep. they are all ther.. and show up in mythepg
14:56<mdz_>are you using the cable input on your capture card, or S-video?
14:56<OrangeSun>the Composite..
14:56<mdz_>hmm
14:57<mdz_>I will be trying this with my AIW card pretty soon maybe
14:57<mdz_>that is, once I get hold of some kind of IR transmitter I can use to control my digital cable tuner
14:57<mdz_>what are you using?
14:58<OrangeSun>I'm using a heppauge.
14:58<OrangeSun>I am currently the IR transmitter : )
14:58<OrangeSun>but I want to build something..
14:59<mdz_>heh, so your external program says "hey you, change the channel!" or something?
15:00<OrangeSun>actually, it currently just echos : )
15:02<mdz_>are you using CVS mythtv?
15:02<OrangeSun>nope.
15:02<OrangeSun>should I be?
15:02<mdz_>dunno, it's just what I happen to be looking at
15:02<mdz_>I don't see any reason why it shouldn't work
15:03<OrangeSun>do I get the MC part of the cvs tree?
15:03<mdz_>what does it do when you try to change the channel past 125?
15:03<mdz_>does it call your program at all?
15:03<OrangeSun>nope. I don't believe so..
15:03<OrangeSun>but it definitely is calling my program before then..
15:04<OrangeSun>let's see if the CVS fixes it..
15:04<OrangeSun>ooooh. mythweb..
15:04<OrangeSun>looks interesting : )
15:20<mdz_>as far as I see, it just checks whether it has an entry in the channel table
15:37<OrangeSun>alright.. gonna run the cvs and see..
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16:25<blinx>hola
16:36<Universe>hey blinx
17:19<Universe>damn XMLTV and its perl modules it needs
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17:31<OrangeSun>hmmmmmm... Universe: i'm trying the CVS, but it still has the same problem!
17:32<Universe>you said you are manually changing the channel and you are using the s-video input?
17:35<OrangeSun>Universe: yeah.
17:35<OrangeSun>all I want is the info..
17:35<OrangeSun>so, say I type in 100, that works..
17:35<OrangeSun>but anythign above, it doesn't..
17:35<OrangeSun>here's something interesting..
17:36<OrangeSun>when I take out all the channels except for, say, channel 500, it says that there are NO channels, and that something must be missing in the database!
17:36<mdz_>is there anything different about the database records for the higher-numbered channels?
17:36<OrangeSun>not that I see..
17:36<Universe>that makes it should like mythtv only checks up to channel 125
17:37<OrangeSun>oh wait.. quick q..
17:37<Universe>err it sound like
17:37<OrangeSun>would you mind opening up yours and taking a look?
17:37<Universe>if I wasn't at work, I would OrangeSun..
17:37<OrangeSun>uni: no prob..
17:38<OrangeSun>I wonder if there is a limit to the "chanid" numbers..
17:39<OrangeSun>like if they can't be 4 integers or something..
17:39<OrangeSun>Anyway, we can speculate all we want.. but it'll take isaacs to sort this out probably : )
17:42<Universe>the source would sort it out also
18:30<OrangeSun>well, it seems that in other instances when people have had this problem it has been because the source was not setup correctly..
18:30<OrangeSun>anyway, I may remake the database and see
18:38<skitzo>OrangeSun: and luck yet?
18:44<OrangeSun>skitzo: not really, no.
18:45<skitzo>doh
18:48<skitzo>for the sake of humanity i wish he'd relo the site
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19:08<karjala>hi
19:09<skitzo>hi
19:10<karjala>hi skitz
19:10<karjala>how's it going?
19:10<karjala>is mythtv really working?
19:10<skitzo>ok, you?
19:10<skitzo>uh, i think so
19:10<karjala>:-) nice
19:10<skitzo>=)
19:12<karjala>:-)
19:12<karjala>...and can I use any old TV tuner card for it?
19:12<karjala>what is it compatible with?
19:12<skitzo>any with v4l support
19:13<karjala>v4l... = "video for linux"?
19:13<skitzo>yup
19:13<skitzo>sorry =)
19:15<karjala>ok
19:15<karjala>thanx
19:16<skitzo>np
19:31<karjala>bye now
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19:42<skitzo>http://gstreamer.net/apps/
19:44<skitzo>-/apps/
19:44<skitzo>looks interesting.
19:58<vektor>Anyone want to try out my deinterlacer app?
19:59<skitzo>i would, but.. =P
19:59<vektor>But?
19:59<skitzo>no cap
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20:17<OrangeSun>vektor!!!
20:17<OrangeSun>vektor: do you have your myth tv working with a receiver / composite?
20:18<vektor>I don't have myth tv working, sorry.
20:18<OrangeSun>how come so many people on #mythtv don't have it working?
20:18<vektor>I just use the source code in my app a bit. :)
20:18<vektor>Well, because we're sharing code.
20:18* vektorhas a valid excuse.
20:18<OrangeSun>hmm. I just don't understand why this thing won't work..
20:18<OrangeSun>vek: cool : )
20:18<OrangeSun>what's isaac's IRC nick?
20:18<vektor>OrangeSun: Try my deinterlacer.
20:18<vektor>Is isaac the main developer?
20:19<vektor>If so his nick is 'Chutt'.
20:19<OrangeSun>vektor: can this deinterlacer be used to replace the mythtv deinterlacer?
20:19<vektor>uh...
20:19<vektor>No, it's a separate app.
20:19<vektor>My app is basically a DScaler port.
20:19<vektor>Although not as featureful yet.
20:19<OrangeSun>vektor: Ok. I'll try it if you'd like.. but I have no real use for a deinterlacer..
20:19<vektor>Why don't you?
20:19<OrangeSun>unless it's like Mythtv.. something I didn't know I needed until I needed it..
20:20<OrangeSun>I do all my video capture in windows, in which case it deinterlaces there..
20:20<vektor>Well, erm, my app is a realtime deinterlacer.
20:20<OrangeSun>could I get info related to your deinterlacer, though? I like to stay abreast of these sorts of things.
20:20<vektor>So, it's for watching TV on a monitor.
20:20<OrangeSun>woah! that's very cool!!
20:20<OrangeSun>how does it work?
20:20<vektor>Well, do you know what interlacing is?
20:20<OrangeSun>yeah..
20:20<OrangeSun>and I know what deinterlacers do..
20:20<vektor>Ok, so you know that your TV displays at 59.94fps, right?
20:20<OrangeSun>what I'm wondering is how you would apply this program to a live stream.
20:21<vektor>Well, the point is, if you want to watch TV on a monitor and have it look as good as your TV, you need to either run your monitor at EXACTLY 59.94hz and have a 1-1 frame-to-frame mapping, using linear interpolation, or you have to do something smarter.
20:22<vektor>Otherwise everything looks like shit, or has poor motion.
20:22<vektor>I gave a talk about this at OLS, you should have gone dude. :)
20:22<OrangeSun>OLS?
20:23<vektor>Um, you are in London Ontario, right?
20:23<OrangeSun>yeah..
20:23<OrangeSun>but I'm new to london.
20:23<vektor>Where are you from?
20:23<OrangeSun>I'm a mongrel of the post-colonialist world.
20:23<vektor>OLS is the Ottawa Linux Symposium. It's a very hardcore Linux developers conference.
20:23<vektor>That's conveniently located in Ontario, or at least it was convenient for me when I lived there ;-)
20:24* vektorjust moved to Halifax.
20:24<OrangeSun>palestinian. born in kuwait. refugee of gulf war to Calgary, halifax, Bathurst, Halifax again, and now london.
20:24<OrangeSun>I just moved *from* halifax.
20:24<vektor>Cool.
20:24<OrangeSun>what are you doing in halifax?
20:24<vektor>I'm doing a masters at Dal.
20:24<OrangeSun>funky.. in what?
20:24<vektor>CS.
20:24<OrangeSun>cool. I did psych / chem there.
20:24<vektor>Well, but I'm taking more math than CS. :)
20:24<vektor>cool :)
20:25<OrangeSun>just graduated : )
20:25<vektor>What are you doing now?
20:25<OrangeSun>I'm bumming around. I was supposed to start UWO med in sept, but I've defered till 2003
20:25<vektor>oh ok.
20:25<vektor>anyway, back to deinterlacing.
20:26<OrangeSun>OK..
20:26<OrangeSun>my question isn't about the technicals of deinterlacing..
20:26<vektor>So, do you sort of see why it's a hard problem?
20:26<OrangeSun>it's about your program's application to a live stream.
20:26<vektor>Well, so say you want to watch TV on your PC.
20:26<vektor>What are you going to do?
20:26<OrangeSun>run kwintv
20:26<vektor>Yeah, and how does it work?
20:27<OrangeSun>takes all the frames from the tv card, and tries to display them.
20:27<OrangeSun>that's my guess..
20:27<vektor>heh.
20:27<vektor>Ok, well, TV apps for linux work in two ways: using the v4l X extension, or using xvideo themselves
20:27<vektor>oh, or they use the cards overlay
20:27<vektor>if you use the v4l X extension, you get half-resolution and half-framerate of the original stream
20:27<vektor>if you use xvideo yourself, they all do that too
20:28<vektor>if they use the cards overlay, you see two fields together as a frame and everything looks like shit
20:28<OrangeSun>OK, so yours gets in the middle of v4l and kwin, say?
20:28<OrangeSun>or does it replace?
20:28<vektor>no, i just did a whole kwintv replacement.
20:28<vektor>i draw to the screen at 60fps.
20:28<vektor>so you get the full motion of a TV
20:28<vektor>and i reconstruct every field to full frame height
20:28<vektor>so you get the full quality of the TV stream
20:29<vektor>i have to reconstruct intelligently though, in order to compensate for your monitor not being sync'ed to the input stream
20:29<OrangeSun>vektor: OK, a question related to that, then.. I thought the whole concept of interlaced video was that rows would show up.. so two frames to make one.. example, first pass has 1 3 5, and second pas has 2 4 6
20:30<vektor>um
20:30<vektor>no
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20:30<OrangeSun>vektor: I think what you have here is a classic marketing problem. You shouldn't ask people if they want to use your "kwintv" replacement.. not your "deinterlacer"
20:30<vektor>the first pass is a different frame from the second pass
20:30<vektor>well, i just want to make sure you know why you want to run my app
20:30<vektor>the basic answer is that it's insanely better quality
20:30<OrangeSun>vektor: OK.. I was mistaken.. that's how the TLC special "Understanding TV" had me believing it..
20:31<vektor>well you're right in a sense
20:31<vektor>first it sends the odd scanlines
20:31<vektor>then it sends the even scanlines
20:31<vektor>but the even scanlines are a different image from the odd ones
20:31<mdz>insanity
20:31<OrangeSun>vektor: you still have a marketing problem if you say "wanna run my deinterlacer?" And that's mainly because most people (including me as is clear) don't understand what a deinterlacer is.
20:31<mdz>I did not realize that
20:31<vektor>mdz: your eye does not notice it though
20:31<vektor>to your eye they all look like complete frames
20:31<vektor>since you're less sensitive to such small changes
20:32<vektor>OrangeSun: well i'm still doing the webpage for it :)
20:32<vektor>OrangeSun: The description on the sourceforge page is probably a bit better.
20:32<vektor>OrangeSun: http://www.sf.net/projects/tvtime/
20:32<vektor>the point of interlacing is that you can send a 60fps stream in the bandwidth of a 30fps stream and your eye doesn't notice the loss of quality on the frames individually
20:33<OrangeSun>vektor: Well, again I assure you that your product will be a niche product for those in the know unless you learn to market it better..
20:33<vektor>OrangeSun: Thanks, I'll try harder. :)
20:33<vektor>I think saying 'DScaler for Linux' will get most people.
20:33<vektor>DScaler is _the_ HTPC app.
20:33<OrangeSun>Again, that's a niche.. : )
20:33<OrangeSun>really??
20:33<vektor>Not really.
20:33<vektor>DScaler is madly popular, and it's GPL'ed.
20:34<vektor>tvtime ships with Linux ports of two of their algorithms.
20:34<vektor>We haven't announced it yet.
20:34<vektor>Since I'm still bugfixing a bit for a big release.
20:34<OrangeSun>OK, so here's my next question.. can I run this program in conjunction with my PVR (i.e., myth)?
20:34<vektor>Need some testers.
20:34<vektor>OrangeSun: Well, part of the idea is that I'm doing a deinterlacing lib so myth can use it.
20:34<vektor>But the reality is that you need alot of CPU power to deinterlace.
20:35<vektor>So, it's going to be tight to get awesome quality _and_ record at the same time.
20:35<vektor>DScaler is adding some PVR features so it is possible if you have the CPU to spare.
20:35<vektor>But my P3-733, admittedly a bit slow now, is all used up running one of the better algorithms.
20:36<OrangeSun>hehehe. I am running a P2-333 on my HTPC system : )
20:36<vektor>Yeah, that's no good.
20:36<OrangeSun>and myth actually works OK : )
20:36<mdz>OrangeSun: so you're only planning on doing playback, right?
20:36<vektor>What resolution do you record at?
20:36<vektor>And what framerate?
20:36<OrangeSun>mdz: no! I do the live thing.
20:36<mdz>OrangeSun: 320x240?
20:36<vektor>To me, TV is not TV unless it's 720x480.
20:36<OrangeSun>I record at 400x400.. and it's whatever the usual framerate is..
20:37<vektor>OrangeSun: I'd be interested in seeing how tvtime works for you.
20:37<vektor>OrangeSun: If you want to try it out, let me know.
20:37<OrangeSun>vektor: I'll try it out and let you know..
20:37* vektorneeds to get back to code though
20:37<vektor>coool
20:37<vektor>you can get it from cvs.
20:37<vektor>and type 'make'.
20:37<OrangeSun>vektor: Very cool..
20:37<vektor>and you have to run it as root to get any performance.
20:37<OrangeSun>question about cvs:
20:37<vektor>let me know how it goes.
20:37<OrangeSun>what's the whole cvs deal about? does my cvs tree update daily or something?
20:37<OrangeSun>so I always have the latest version?
20:37<vektor>no.
20:37<vektor>cvs is just a source control app.
20:37<OrangeSun>OK, that's what I thought..
20:38<vektor>so you update manually.
20:38<vektor>To get the latest version, do 'cvs update -dP'.
20:38<vektor>Well, do -dP if you're cool. :)
20:38<mdz>OrangeSun: try the FAQ-o-matic at cvshome.org
20:38<OrangeSun>is there a cvs directory?
20:38<vektor>Otherwise just 'cvs update'.
20:38<OrangeSun>what really excites me right is that I'm never going to miss another episode of cowboy bebop
20:38<vektor>cvs is a wee bit complicated. The sourceforge site has a brief doc on how to download tvtime using CVS though.
20:38<vektor>Good luck.
20:39<OrangeSun>funky.
20:39<OrangeSun>Alright guys.. I'm gonna jet. I'll see y'all soon.. take care!
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