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#mythtv IRC Logs for 2003-01-13

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00:04<Chutt>weird
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01:34<poptix>.
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06:42<poptix>hmm
06:42<poptix>mythtv does look a lot better on a TV
07:32<m0tion>poptix: yes
07:32<m0tion>the tv quality is MUCH better on a TV, because you aren't able to see all the imprefections like on a monitor
07:45<poptix>too bad mythtv goes against the whole idea of open source, and standardized formats/protocols =-p
07:46<nevertheless>poptix: talking about the net stuff or about the nuppelvid stuff, too?
07:46<poptix>both
07:46<poptix>i mean, fine, so he decided to hard code a certain codec and whatnot, instead of making it easy to use other codecs
07:47<poptix>but the recorded shows are a bastardized version of nuppelvideo
07:47<poptix>which locks you into using mythtv to watch them
07:47<nevertheless>for the vid stuff: its an optimized video codec, it doesn't make sense to use a standard version an only get up to recording sizes of 320x.. due to the noOptimization
07:47<nevertheless>no, mplayer can play them too
07:47<poptix>mplayer can play real nuppelvideo files, i'm not sure about the version that mythtv puts out
07:48<nevertheless>there is a patch avail.
07:49<poptix>i don't see the reason for using nuppelvideo/rtjpeg in particular, or for bastardizing the nuv format
07:49<poptix>i can easily capture 640x480 directly to divx, or various other formats in real time
07:50<poptix>Chutt has my applause for making a nice program, but he didn't put any thought into making it anywhere near easy for other people to modify it, or extend it.
07:51<nevertheless>(including commenting ;-)
07:51<poptix>there's a severe lack of documentation of the actual program =p
07:51<poptix>yeah.
07:51<poptix>hell
07:51<poptix>i can't even exit the damned thing without a kill -TERM
07:51<nevertheless>why?
07:51<poptix>because for some reason alt+f4 isn't working
07:51<nevertheless>just use esc with a modifier in cvs
07:52<nevertheless>thats why I implemented the stuff
07:52<poptix>i shouldn't have to use a modifier =p
07:52<nevertheless>but chutt said, he doesn't need to shutdown mythtv, since Its running all the time
07:52<nevertheless>then set, to shutdown without modifier
07:53<nevertheless>are you using cvs?
07:53<poptix>yes
07:53<nevertheless>ok, then go on
07:53<poptix>none of this is documented
07:53<nevertheless>of what?
07:53<poptix>where is the code that you implemented?
07:54<nevertheless>program/mythfrontend/main.cpp mainly
07:55<nevertheless>just go to setup->general->twice OK -> and then System Shutdown
07:57<poptix>that's not very descriptive
07:57<poptix>;alksjf
07:57<nevertheless>aehm?
07:57<poptix>alright, i set it to no modifier
07:58<poptix>that gives me nfi what key to hit, to exit
07:58<nevertheless>nfi?
07:58<poptix>'no fucking idea'
07:58<poptix>alright
07:58<nevertheless>ok :-)
07:59<poptix>i had to kill it, and restart it
07:59<poptix>now esc will bring up the exit screen
07:59<poptix>sigh.
07:59<nevertheless>:)
07:59<poptix>it's hard to see what item is selected in those setup screens
07:59<poptix>and pressing <- or -> to cycle through items is.. less than intuitive
08:00<nevertheless>right, but you should be able to use it with a remote
08:00<nevertheless>excluding some special things
08:01* poptixshrugs
08:01<poptix>depends on what kind of remote you're using
08:01<nevertheless>why?
08:01<poptix>my remote has a tab key
08:01<poptix>heh.
08:02<poptix>generally you would tab through options
08:02<nevertheless>my remote has up,down,right,left,esc and ok
08:02<poptix>press up/down for selections
08:02<poptix><enter> for checkboxes
08:02<poptix>anyway
08:02<poptix>it's not a big deal
08:03* poptixlooks at the 3 pieces of coax feeding into his PC
08:03<poptix>any idea why he chose to munge up the nuv format?
08:04<Universe>because it hasn't been updated in forever and needed some improvements
08:05<poptix>such as?
08:05<Universe>thats what has been said... I am sure you could do a compare on the code and see what was changed...
08:05<Universe>I have no clue
08:06* poptixkills lilo
08:06<poptix>[13/0706] -USERNOTICE(usernotice@usernotice.utility.freenode)- Reminder: you're connected to the Freenode network via IRC.OPENPROJECTS.NET. That domain
08:06<poptix> name's being PHASED OUT, since Open Projects changed its name to Freenode in August, 2002. If you connected directly, please reconfigure your
08:06<poptix> client to point to IRC.FREENODE.NET and reconnect. If you connected via another project's irc hostname, irc client default or web site, please
08:06<poptix> ask the project owners to change their pointer! Thanks.
08:07<poptix>it's sending that repeatedly
08:07<Universe>that isn't lilo
08:07<Universe>thats the irc server you can connected through
08:07<Universe>change the address from irc.openprokects.net to irc.freenode.net and that will quit
08:10<poptix>i'd arather not.
08:10<poptix>s/a//;
08:10<Universe>then one day.. you aren't going to be able to connect...
08:10<Universe>its being "PHASED OUT"
08:11<poptix>fortunately i have an /etc/hosts full of aliases for irc.openprojects.org
08:11<nevertheless>Universe: do you know why the change it?
08:11<poptix>i don't really care if it stops resolving for the rest of the world =)
08:11<Universe>nevertheless: no clue
08:11<poptix>nevertheless: because 'openprojects' was no longer indicative of anything on this network
08:11-!-poptix [] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
08:11<nevertheless>poptix: I just rowte rkulagow an email about the documentation of the quit things :-)
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08:13<poptix_>god damnit
08:13<nevertheless>poptix_: I just rowte rkulagow an email about the documentation of the quit things :-)
08:13<poptix_>quit message?
08:13<nevertheless>Remote closed the connection
08:14<poptix_>nevertheless: fyi, it's not taking effect until mythfrontend is restarted
08:16<nevertheless>your right, this is supposed to be a bug in the new settings stuff using sql
08:16<poptix_>perhaps you should call the function that loads the settings from the database
08:17<nevertheless>arg
08:17<nevertheless>thats done on init of the menu
08:17<poptix_>hmm
08:17<nevertheless>i need to fix that
08:21<poptix_>honestly, I don't see why he's doing the decoding on his own at all
08:21<poptix_>using something like mplayer would get you a lot more flexibility
08:21<poptix_>(even though i really don't like mplayer =)
08:23<nevertheless>how would you use mplayer for LiveTV ?
08:24<poptix_>with pause/fast forward/rewind?
08:25<poptix_>create a ring buffer, tell mplayer to read it
08:25<poptix_>then all you have to do is dump the video/audio into the buffer
08:26<poptix_>you pause mplayer, and it just stops reading
08:26<poptix_>unpause, you're at the same place
08:26<poptix_>(unless you've paused it for so long that you overran the ringbuffer and it came back around to your current position)
08:26<poptix_>in that circumstance, mythtv just forces an unpause
08:26<nevertheless>I doubt that would work smooth (ok, the client/server doesn't work smooth too)
08:26<poptix_>(which you could just as easily make mplayer do)
08:27<poptix_>with my WinTV PVR-250, i've got the program grabbing the mpeg2 data, and dumping it into a 1GB mpg
08:27<poptix_>when it hits the end of the 1GB, it starts over at the beginning
08:27<poptix_>i open that with xine, and it works fine.
08:28<poptix_>rewind, fast forward, pause etc
08:28<poptix_>depending on the bitrate, it gets me about half an hour worth of pause time
08:29<nevertheless>so, go on in implement stuff, using the mplayer patch for nuv it should be quite easy :-)
08:29<nevertheless>s/in/and/
08:29<poptix_>i'm not about to spend the time documenting the working of mythtv so that i can implement something that will be broken by the next cvs commit
08:30<poptix_>Chutt's comments lead me to believe that he would have no problem with breaking everything that he doesn't use and leaving it broken
08:32<nevertheless>hmmm, don't know, but what for do you really need mplayer playing the stuff?
08:33<nevertheless>you just don't do it for opensource's sake, are you?
08:33<poptix_>no
08:33<nevertheless>so, what would be the "pro" ?
08:33<poptix_>i'd like to be able to drop in various recordings in the media directory
08:33<poptix_>and play them with the same interface
08:34<poptix_>or put a DVD in the drive, and watch it, with the same interface
08:34<nevertheless>what about mythvideo? (i never used it)
08:34<poptix_>there's a million and one codecs out there, mplayer supports 999,999 of them
08:34<nevertheless>yeah, thats right
08:35<nomeata>mplayer is great, but I think it that gstreamer will outrun mplayer eventually (more flexible design)
08:35<poptix_>mplayer also supports v4l compatible devices
08:35<poptix_>which means you could watch TV without the PVR features easily
08:35<nevertheless>what?
08:36<poptix_>if you simply wanted to use PIP, or the EPG
08:36<poptix_>with the mythtv interface and whatnot
08:36<poptix_>but didn't care for the PVR features such as pause/rewind/ff etc in that particular instance
08:37<poptix_>mplayer can read directly from v4l interfaces, and display them (like xawtv)
08:37<nevertheless>hmmm, thats the main feature of mythtv, you can use the epg without mythtv, and can watch tv using xawtv, you can run it twice and have an even more flexible pip
08:38<poptix_>i can do that now without mythtv
08:38<poptix_>what i want is integration
08:38<poptix_>and flexibility
08:39<nevertheless>what do you need mythtv if you have already another way?
08:39<poptix_>i don't want to remember 6 different key settings for 6 different types of media when i'm trying to watch TV =p
08:39<poptix_>www.tvguide.com + xawtv works fine
08:39<nevertheless>hmmm, so why complaining here>?
08:39<poptix_>the improvement is putting it together in something like mythtv, and having it use a good interface
08:40<poptix_>along with the PVR features
08:50-!-bigguy [] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)]
08:58<poptix_>guh
08:58<poptix_>it's broken again =p
09:02* poptix_ponders replacing all the rtjpeg code with libmpeg2
09:08-!-nevertheless [] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
09:43<vektor>um...
09:43<vektor>libmpeg2 is just a decoder.
09:45<poptix_>i've already got a hardware encoder.
09:45<vektor>Ah, ok.
09:45<vektor>I'm curious, which one?
09:45<vektor>Ah, the WinTV-PVR 250 ?
09:46<vektor>Do you happen to know, can it record in interlaced MPEG2 mode?
09:47<vektor>Were you hacking with gb/pavlov and those types on their driver?
09:47<poptix_>no
09:47<poptix_>i've got the PVR-250
09:47<vektor>No to which question?
09:47<vektor>:)
09:47<poptix_>and i don't think it can record anything but interlaced video
09:47<vektor>I'm mostly curious about interlaced MPEG2 recording.
09:47<vektor>Ah, awesome.
09:48<vektor>So, you can get full 720x480 ?
09:48<poptix_>it's so easy to deinterace anyway
09:48<vektor>Or are you PAL so you get 720x576?
09:48<poptix_>yeah
09:48<vektor>Um...
09:48<vektor>Deinterlacing is not easy :)
09:48<poptix_>it'll do both
09:48* vektor== author of a realtime deinterlacer.
09:48<vektor>All of the linux media players don't deinterlace 'properly' for example.
09:48<poptix_>well, i should say there are plenty of filters out there anyway, that are easy to tie into your video display program =p
09:48<vektor>But anyway :)
09:48<vektor>uh...
09:48<vektor>No dude.
09:49<poptix_>no?
09:49<vektor>True deinterlacing means decoding at full rate of 59.94fps for NTSC.
09:49<vektor>Xine/mplayer/... they all can't do full 60fps output.
09:49<vektor>Arpi doesn't care about 60fps for example :) He claims he mostly watches 24fps progressive material so he doesn't care :)
09:49<poptix_>yes, but it looks fine to me, which is all i need at the moment
09:49<vektor>Oh.
09:49<vektor>So, which reversed drivers are you using?
09:49<poptix_>i'm using the reference drivers
09:50<vektor>The reference drivers?
09:50<poptix_>the only drivers i know of actually
09:50<vektor>I did not know that any drivers were available, but I know of two reverse engineering projects.
09:50<poptix_>some website that makes TV cards with the iTV chipset put the reference drivers up, even though they claim to be under an NDA
09:50<vektor>When did they come out?
09:50<vektor>Oh... Interesting.
09:50<poptix_>so nobody really wants to touch them
09:50<vektor>Yeah, I can imagine.
09:50<poptix_>but as i said, they're working fine for me
09:51<vektor>But I assume they don't provide a V4L interface :)
09:51<poptix_>driver loads, and you run this little app to pull the mpeg stream off the card
09:51<vektor>Oh, ok.
09:51<vektor>How do you control the tuner?
09:51<poptix_>the program loads a conf.ini that has all the mpeg stream settings (mpeg1 or mpeg2, bitrate, resolution, channel, etc)
09:51<vektor>Sure sure, but what about the tuner?
09:51<poptix_>the application pulling the stream off does it
09:51<vektor>Hmm.
09:52<poptix_>you can hit 'c' while it's running and change the channel
09:52<vektor>Have you looked at the code?
09:52<poptix_>yeah
09:52<poptix_>it's all i2c
09:52<vektor>Hmm.
09:52<vektor>How does the data get transfered?
09:52<poptix_>it wouldn't be terribly hard to make a v4l interface
09:52<vektor>Like, the MPEG2 data, where does it come from?
09:52<vektor>Well, I don't think you'd want to.
09:52<poptix_>hmm
09:52<poptix_>honestly, i don't know
09:52<vektor>Really I think that this sort of card is not served well by V4L at all.
09:52<poptix_>would you like the stripped down driver i have?
09:52<vektor>We need some other API.
09:53<vektor>Stripped down?
09:53<poptix_>i stripped out all the windows code, and the halfassed gui stuff they had in there
09:53<vektor>Oh no dude, keep in the Windows code.
09:53<poptix_>ie, it's nothing but the code that's actually used in linux
09:53<poptix_>(less confusing)
09:53<vektor>I'd appreciate it if you could send me the driver, just don't tell anyone you sent it to me.
09:53<poptix_>=p
09:53<vektor>I'm dead serious. ;)
09:53* Soopizzle...conspiracy...
09:53<poptix_>it can be downloaded from various websites
09:53<vektor>Soopizzle: Loser :)
09:53<poptix_>i just took out the unused crap
09:54<vektor>poptix_: Still, IRC is nice and anonymous.
09:54<poptix_>fyi, the windows code doesn't even work
09:54<vektor>If you happen to have the .zip you downloaded, I'd appreciate it.
09:54<poptix_>nor does the gui player code
09:54<vektor>Well, my auto-accept is on.
09:54<vektor>So, whatever you have.
09:55<vektor>Putting support for this into mythtv might be difficult. For now, you'd probably want to put the whole capture app right into mythtv.
09:55<vektor>I guess, eh?
09:55<poptix_>well
09:55<vektor>um
09:55<vektor>you're behing a NAT and it's fucking the dcc.
09:55<poptix_>probably
09:55<poptix_>hold.
09:56<vektor>No, not probably, it is :)
09:56<vektor>request from 192.168.0.2 ;-)
09:56<vektor>That's an RFC1918 addy.
09:57<vektor>Do you happen to know if those drivers work with the PVR-350 ?
09:57<poptix_>heh
09:57<poptix_>my home network is very complex..
09:57<poptix_>yes, they do
09:57<vektor>I might pick one up today then.
09:57<poptix_>nifty
09:57<poptix_>i assume you have C++ programming experience?
09:57<vektor>Um, yes.
09:58<vektor>I assume you do too.
09:58<poptix_>very little.
09:58<poptix_>i'm more of a C person =p
09:58<vektor>Ah ok.
09:58<vektor>Well all of my opensource projects are in C.
09:58<vektor>Erm, most anyway :)
09:58<vektor>Since all these free software types are so anti-C++.
09:59<vektor>But anyway.
10:00<vektor>It still sounds like it would be pretty difficult to integrate these drivers directly into mythtv.
10:03<vektor>Also, well, the quality loss is a bit annoying for my applications...
10:03<vektor>But still. :)
10:03<poptix_>okay, as i was saying
10:04<poptix_>the player application supports a few different things
10:04<poptix_>including a Diskless mode
10:04<poptix_>Diskless mode actually just creates a timeshift file
10:04<vektor>Argh, FutureShop doesn't seem to carry the WinTV-PVR.
10:04<vektor>Well whatever, if I buy it I'm writing my own player.
10:05<poptix_>a set size file that is written to until it hits the end, then it returns to the beginning of the file and continues to write
10:05<poptix_>nod
10:05* vektorwrote an MPEG2/DVD player app for linux.
10:05<vektor>Like I said, I can't stand watching 60fps content at 30fps.
10:05<poptix_>i've been opening that with xine, and it works fine for PVR functions =p
10:05<vektor>Hrm.
10:05<poptix_>vektor: works fine since i'm sending it out the S-Video output =p
10:05<vektor>uh.....
10:05<vektor>How are you doing that?
10:06<vektor>You're likely still only getting 30fps then.
10:06<poptix_>i've got a sigma hollywood+ em8300
10:06<vektor>Ooooooh!!
10:06<poptix_>mpeg2 decoder
10:06<vektor>Well yeah, that would work wonders.
10:06<vektor>Since that can drive the output.
10:06<poptix_>nod
10:06<vektor>So then, if you give that an interlaced MPEG2 file, I guess it does 'the right thing'?
10:06<poptix_>unfortunately mythtv doesn't support any of this =p
10:06<vektor>Well there's a big flaw there dude.
10:07<vektor>And it would be the same with my app.
10:07<poptix_>i assume it's just decoding it, not deinterlacing it
10:07<vektor>How do I composite an OSD onto that?!
10:07<vektor>Well, yes it has control over the TV encoder so it can send the fields correctly, that's the idea anyway.
10:07<poptix_>actually the win tv pvr supports an osd of some sort
10:07<vektor>So how does that work.
10:07<vektor>I send an ARGB image to the driver?
10:07<vektor>Seems a bit odd :)
10:08<poptix_>not sure =p
10:08<poptix_>it's all in this code
10:08<vektor>Hrm.
10:08<poptix_>ETA, 11 seconds
10:08<vektor>So, are you going to hack this into mythtv?
10:08<vektor>I'm curious.
10:08<poptix_>i'm not skilled enough to do so.
10:08<vektor>I don't know how you'll handle the ep guide and OSD with your hardware decoder...
10:09<vektor>Like, your model isn't well suited for how mythtv works, I don't think.
10:09<vektor>Not that I use mythtv. :)
10:09<poptix_>i'd be happy to see mythtv support this pvr-250 as an input device, recording to mpeg2 on disk
10:09<vektor>Well, that really doesn't follow the mythtv model.
10:09<poptix_>the em8300 as an output device is just sugar and frills
10:09<vektor>Since mythtv's input is based on V4L...
10:09<vektor>and mythtv does pixel operations on the images.
10:10<poptix_>mythtv supports the mjpeg cards as well
10:10<vektor>Yes but they also support the V4L API.
10:10<vektor>So the tuner API is the same, I believe.
10:10<poptix_>they support a hack of the v4l api
10:10<vektor>Sure, but bbb is pretty good about it.
10:10<poptix_>from what i've read of the v4l spec, it doesn't say anything about compressed streams
10:11<vektor>Sure, but the nice thing about mjpeg is that there is no inter-frame compression.
10:11<vektor>It's all intra-frame.
10:11<vektor>So you can treat it as a pixel encoding type.
10:11<vektor>Also, you can decode it in software trivially.
10:11<vektor>Anyway, I'm just saying it's not a trivial thing to support.
10:11<vektor>So I'd figure you'd do it.
10:11<vektor>:)
10:11<poptix_>=p
10:12<vektor>But if you're not going to that kinda sucks.
10:12<vektor>Cause I know that chutt doesn't have a PVR card.
10:12<vektor>Nobody does, really.
10:12<vektor>Since it's a pain.
10:12<poptix_>Chutt doesn't care
10:12<vektor>And why should he.
10:12<poptix_>i offered to send him one for dev purposes
10:12<vektor>Yeah but they're a pain. :)
10:12<poptix_>he said even if he had one, he wouldn't use it
10:12<vektor>Yeah, it's not really worth it.
10:12* poptix_thinks it is =p
10:12<vektor>So, then you get to support it :)
10:12<vektor>That's how opensource works :)
10:13<vektor>I mean, in my apps, my PAL support lacks alot.
10:13<vektor>Since, well, I'm in North America :)
10:13<poptix_>yeah
10:13<vektor>That's just how open source works :)
10:13<poptix_>are you on the mailing list?
10:13<vektor>No, I'm not. I just borrow source code from mythtv a bit.
10:13<vektor>So I hang out here because it's cool.
10:13<poptix_>they're talking about how they number channels in britain
10:13<poptix_>apparently it's different than here
10:13<vektor>Oh fuck, it's such a pain to deal with all of that.
10:13<poptix_>heh.
10:13<vektor>In tvtime we have no end of problems.
10:14<poptix_>ah, tvtime
10:14<vektor>I try to make it clean though, but man... :(
10:14<poptix_>good program =p
10:14<vektor>Thanks!
10:14<poptix_>i like the semi random quotes
10:14<vektor>60fps output all the way :)
10:14<poptix_>=p
10:14<vektor>Heh, thanks :)
10:14<poptix_>nice OSD too
10:14<vektor>If you have any ideas for more quotes, let me know :)
10:14<vektor>The OSD code originally came from mythtv's OSD code.
10:14<vektor>I have some things to port back now.
10:15<poptix_>pulling coherant strings from the VBI data would be interesting =)
10:15<vektor>What do you mean?
10:15<vektor>Oh fuck, did you try cvs tvtime?
10:15<poptix_>not lately
10:15<vektor>Ugh, why do people get it from CVS.
10:15<vektor>CVS is _broken_. We're _developing_ it.
10:16<vektor>So annoying. :)
10:16<poptix_>i meant pulling strings from the VBI for the titlebar
10:16<vektor>Heh, I see :)
10:16<poptix_>i imagine you could get some interesting quotes
10:16<vektor>Yeah, we could :)
10:16<vektor>That's a good idea :)
10:16<vektor>Thanks.
10:16<poptix_>at first i started to wonder if that's where they came from =p
10:16<vektor>We have a closed caption decoder now in CVS.
10:16<vektor>But closed captions are very difficult to do correctly.
10:17<vektor>When we release I think we will be the first proper closed caption renderer for Linux.
10:17<poptix_>in what way?
10:17<mdz_>not this discussion again
10:17<poptix_>mdz_: ?
10:17<vektor>Like, closed captions have information about position on the screen, time to roll up, etc.
10:17<vektor>They also have multiple streams.
10:17<poptix_>vektor: oh, yeah
10:17<mdz_>the PVR card crap
10:17<vektor>It's not just a stream of text.
10:17<poptix_>mdz_: chill, we're having a good discussion
10:17<vektor>So, rendering it is very difficult.
10:18<vektor>Also, it takes a specific font, and needs some weird characters.
10:18<mdz_>poptix_: about mythtv?
10:18<poptix_>vektor: the decoders i've seen just grab the text and display it, ignoring the other information
10:18<vektor>I'm very much not sure how to really do it right.
10:18<vektor>poptix_: Yes, very bad. Leads to all sorts of crap.
10:18<vektor>It makes it effectively unusable.
10:18<vektor>Since so many stations rely on the other information.
10:19<poptix_>have you found any good documentation on decoding that information?
10:19<vektor>Well, yeah. EIA-608A/B.
10:19<vektor>That's the line21 data services standard.
10:19<poptix_>for a while i was very interested in the Guide+ data
10:19<vektor>Where else would you look? ;-)
10:19<vektor>Ah, we support XDS information now.
10:19<vektor>Guide+ I'm a bit weirded out by.
10:19<poptix_>but i couldn't find anything that documented it
10:20<vektor>XDS supports stuff like the name of the channel, the show name, the show length, etc.
10:20<poptix_>yeah
10:20<vektor>But it's sooo poorly implemented by stations.
10:20<vektor>Some stations do, some stations don't, etc.
10:20<poptix_>actually AT&T does a fairly good job of it
10:20<poptix_>as a provider, not a station
10:20<vektor>Like, MuchMusic would have the show name 'LIVE WITH SHANIA T' while TBS says like 'The Rosanne Show'.
10:20<poptix_>we've even got the nifty icons
10:20<vektor>Heh.
10:20<poptix_>heh.
10:20<vektor>Like, I'm really unimpressed with XDS.
10:20<vektor>I
10:21<vektor>I've found that most Canadian TVs that support XDS just leave it shut off by default.
10:21<vektor>If anything, channels just send the V-Chip ratings.
10:21<poptix_>yeah
10:21<vektor>So, it's not the holy grail I thought it was.
10:21<poptix_>i think it was kwintv
10:21<poptix_>that i found
10:21<vektor>I think I'm going to just find the manual for a Sony TV and do exactly what they do.
10:21<vektor>Same UI and everything.
10:21<poptix_>the only program that decoded that information, along with the v-chip stuff
10:22<vektor>I mean, that's my real goal for tvtime. Do a TV replacement that feels like a TV replacement, then improve from there.
10:22<poptix_>nod
10:22<vektor>Anyway, if you clean up the PVR driver that would be good.
10:22<vektor>If you do a V4L style tuner API I think that would help out.
10:22<poptix_>just the tuner? =P
10:22<vektor>It's a start.
10:23<poptix_>hmm, i could do that..
10:23<vektor>I mean, V4L2 doesn't even address the needs of an abstract MPEG2 encoding API.
10:23<vektor>We need something else.
10:23<poptix_>have you looked at how the mjpeg cards are doing it?
10:23<vektor>Yes but again, mjpeg cards are only intra-frame compression.
10:23<vektor>So it's alot easier to deal with.
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10:24<vektor>Anyway, good luck. Any support you can design and put into mythtv I'm sure will be appreciated by someone.
10:24<vektor>Although most people probably don't see much point.
10:25<vektor>Since it's definitely alot of complexity for little gain.
10:25-!-nevertheless [~neverthel@p50859488.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #mythtv
10:25<vektor>(and, in the case of applications like tvtime, worse colour resolution too).
10:26<vektor>So, there are lots of reasons to just wait until a standard driver API, or at least a standard driver, come around. :)
10:26<vektor>I didn't know there was a working driver though. I think I'll own a card by the weekend. ;)
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10:28<poptix_>eh
10:28<poptix_>er
10:28<vektor>Makes sense?
10:28<poptix_>heh
10:28<poptix_>personally, the PVR card looks better to me
10:28<vektor>Why?
10:29<vektor>It's definitely better in a few cases.
10:29<vektor>1) You own a hardware MPEG2 decoder that can output field-correct interlaced data to a TV.
10:29<vektor>2) You want to store on SVCD or DVD or something.
10:29<vektor>But even 2) is iffy since you can get better quality using mpeg2enc modified properly I bet.
10:29<vektor>What other case is there?
10:29* poptix_points at the sony DRU-500a in his computer that burns all DVD formats
10:30<vektor>Yeah, but that's about it.
10:30<poptix_>well, everything but -RAM, but who really uses that
10:30<vektor>And most people for PVR applications don't care about storing to DVD or SVCD
10:30<poptix_>here's the thing
10:30<vektor>Since a PVR is not a high quality video recorder.
10:30<poptix_>mythtv chirps, burps, and screws up all around
10:30<vektor>Huh?
10:30<poptix_>in my Athlon XP 2100+
10:30<vektor>What do you mean by that? Now you're dissing the app? :)
10:30<poptix_>in/on
10:30<vektor>Then you're doing something wrong.
10:30<poptix_>the encoding
10:30<vektor>Or, you're misconfigued.
10:30<poptix_>there's not much for me to do wrong =p
10:31<vektor>Oh, I beg to differ :)
10:31<poptix_>i mean with MythTV
10:31<vektor>Dude, you won't believe the problems we have with tvtime performance.
10:31<vektor>And 90% of the time it's not tvtime's fault.
10:31<poptix_>you've barely got any settings to muck up
10:31<poptix_>tvtime has given me 0 problems
10:31<poptix_>worked 'out of the box'
10:31<vektor>True, but lots of other problems.
10:31<vektor>Heh.
10:31<vektor>Anyway, whatever.
10:31<vektor>Open soruce.
10:31<vektor>If you don't add in the feature, someone will.
10:31<vektor>So whatever.
10:32<poptix_>i don't trust Chutt not to break anything I add =p
10:32<vektor>Uh...
10:32<vektor>Then fork if necessary.
10:33<poptix_>i'd be interested in seeing anything you come up with in reference to the WinTV-PVR
10:33<vektor>Sure.
10:33<poptix_>fyi, you need to change a few things in it to make it work
10:33<vektor>But anyway, you really don't have any argument against Chutt. :)
10:33<poptix_>the tarball i sent
10:33<vektor>Ok, well, I'll figure it out whne I get the card.
10:33<vektor>I mostly wanted to see the driver just to understand what it's capable of.
10:34<poptix_>http://www.shspvr.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1378
10:34<poptix_>it loads some of the i2c stuff from .txt files
10:34<poptix_>you'll need the correct data to do anything =p
10:34<poptix_>(it does that because it supports multiple chips, only one of which will be on your board)
10:35<vektor>Sure.
10:35<vektor>Anyway, good luck with your mythtv hacking.
10:35<poptix_>=)
10:36<vektor>You should probably start with something easier though.
10:36<vektor>Like, do a proper front-end to xine or mplayer or something to talk to the card directly, without using this other app.
10:37<vektor>(creating abstract APIs to the kernel/i2c driver code when necessary).
10:37<vektor>Good luck.
10:37* vektorgone, class time
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10:45<PhazE3>My mythtv box has been up for 1 month today without crashing :) or powere failure :) great program
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11:25<Chutt>heh
11:26<Universe>whats up Chutt?
11:26<Chutt>nothing
11:26<Universe>oh.. ok
11:32<Chutt>anyone try that mythweb update posted a little earlier?
11:35<Chutt>heh
11:35<Chutt>only 4 big@boss.com emails waiting at the list moderation stuff today
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12:03<Chutt>anyone know who owns 'lists.mythtv@penguin.nu'?
12:11<Universe>lol... penguin.nu is a wedding site for someone..
12:16* poptix_sifts through v4l documentation
12:20<-- Universehas quit ()
12:20<Chutt>poptix, are you looking at v4l2 or 1?
12:21<poptix_>probably 2, since it's up-and-coming
12:21<poptix_>what does MythTV support?
12:21<Chutt>just 1 for now, but i've got most of the code for 2 written already
12:22<poptix_>my goal is to be able to control the resolution/tuner/etc with a v4l device
12:22<poptix_>then i'll figure out how to transport the actual video
12:23<Chutt>and then have something simple to grab the encoded stream?
12:23<Chutt>that'd work
12:24<poptix_>probably a device that you can open and read the mpeg stream directly out of
12:24<poptix_>to hell with API's, there aren't any for this, and i'm not going to muck up v4l more to do it.
12:25<poptix_>consider it half-assed v4l.
12:25* paperclipis away: altitude
12:25<Chutt>that's how the mjpeg stuff works, so...
12:32<poptix_>of course, there won't be any applications to support it
12:32<poptix_>i might be able to easily modify mplayer to do it..
12:32<poptix_>actually
12:32<poptix_>*lightbulb*
12:32<poptix_>that WinTV PVR-usb thing has basic support
12:32<poptix_>i wonder if it's mpeg
12:32<Chutt>it is
12:33<Chutt>the existing driver doesn't tune, iirc
12:35<poptix_>hrm
12:35<poptix_>it doesn't do much of anything =p
12:35<Chutt>right
12:35<poptix_>just dumps mpeg data to /dev/usb/lp0
12:36<Chutt>which is silly, to say the least =)
12:36<poptix_>and the pci version only works in standard non-mpeg mode
12:36<poptix_>hrm.
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12:38<poptix_>here we go
12:38<poptix_>a kfir based card driver that uses v4l
12:39<poptix_>wonderful.
12:39* poptix_runs to do some stuff
12:49<rkulagow>chutt, i've been looking at mythfrontend and the setup program, seeing if there's any help text that can be added to mythfrontend setup, like setting up the "ESC" key for exit, and what the various modifiers do.. as far as I can see, (and this is just a quick look), mythfrontend doesn't use the setHelpText method like setup. Am I reading the code correctly?
12:50<Chutt>none of that help text is written
12:50<Chutt>it can use the setHelpText() stuff the same way
12:50<Chutt>a couple of the settings do
12:51<Chutt>i think the deinterlace one does
12:52<Chutt>and the prompt on exit settings
12:52<rkulagow>ah, ok, i see it now. grepped for the wrong stuff.
12:55<rkulagow>ok, so if I add "setHelpText" in the public for AllowQuitShutdown with the appropriate help text in globalsettings.cpp it'll work automagically?
12:55<Chutt>yup
12:55<Chutt>err
12:55<Chutt>wait
12:55<rkulagow>sanding by...
12:55<mdz_>i added help text in a couple of the frontend dialogs
12:56<rkulagow>"sanding". too much home improvement lately...
12:56<Chutt>after all the 'addSelection()' calls
12:56<Chutt>you just add 'setHelpText("blah blah blah");'
12:56<Chutt>and it'll work
12:56<Chutt>to use allowquitshutdown as an example
12:56<rkulagow>right, that's what I thought. mind if i start working on that sort of stuff?
12:57<Chutt>not at all =)
12:57<Chutt>that all needs to get done before 0.8
12:57<rkulagow>ok, so in the allowquitshutdown, there's the setlabel, the 5 addselections, and then i can put in the setHelptext, correct?
12:57<Chutt>yup
12:57<Chutt>all the other settings are that way, too
12:58<rkulagow>ok. how many characters do i have for help text before something bad happens?
12:58<Chutt>i dunno =)
12:58<mdz_>more than I thought would fit
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12:59<Chutt>yeah
12:59<Chutt>check out the exit playback prompts
12:59<Chutt>those are fairly long, and there's a bit more room left
13:00<Chutt>as for the total length, just try stuff and see =)
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13:04<rkulagow>Chutt, do you mind ESC being the default, rather than a configurable option? Knowing how much users read docs, it might be easier to have a default that does something, rather than buried three pages deep in the mythfrontend setup...
13:04<rkulagow>(meaning to exit out of the program)
13:04-!-nevertheless is now known as ntl|afk
13:05<Chutt>i'd rather not have escape be the default
13:05<rkulagow>OK.
13:05<Chutt>you don't want to accidently exit out of everything on a dedicated box
13:11<rkulagow>hopefully this will paste in without crashing Trillian:
13:11<rkulagow>
13:11<rkulagow>class AllowQuitShutdown: public ComboBoxSetting, public GlobalSetting {
13:11<rkulagow>public:
13:11<rkulagow> AllowQuitShutdown():
13:11<rkulagow> GlobalSetting("AllowQuitShutdown") {
13:11<rkulagow> setLabel("System shutdown");
13:12<rkulagow> addSelection("No exit key", "0");
13:12<rkulagow> addSelection("ESC", "1");
13:12<rkulagow> addSelection("Control-ESC", "2");
13:12<rkulagow> addSelection("Meta-ESC", "3");
13:12<rkulagow> addSelection("Alt-ESC", "4");
13:12<rkulagow> setHelpText("Mythtv is designed to run continuously. If you wish, "
13:12<rkulagow> "you may use the ESC key or the ESC key + a modifier to exit "
13:12<rkulagow> "mythtv.");
13:12<rkulagow> };
13:12<rkulagow>};
13:12<rkulagow>how does that look?
13:12<Chutt>just fine
13:12<rkulagow>(i re-ordered the selections, and expanded the text a little)
13:13<Chutt>well
13:13<Chutt>if you reorder the selections, you'll have to modify the code elsewhere
13:13<rkulagow>i've got to check that the order doesn't impact other stuff.
13:13<rkulagow>(you type faster than i do)
13:13<Chutt>heh
13:13<Chutt>well
13:13<Chutt>actually
13:14<Chutt>just reorder it
13:14<Chutt>but keep the numbers after the text the same as before
13:14<Chutt>so "No exit key" would be "4" still
13:14<Chutt>that should work
13:16<rkulagow>ok, so now it looks like this:
13:16<rkulagow>
13:16<rkulagow>class AllowQuitShutdown: public ComboBoxSetting, public GlobalSetting {
13:16<rkulagow>public:
13:16<rkulagow> AllowQuitShutdown():
13:16<rkulagow> GlobalSetting("AllowQuitShutdown") {
13:16<rkulagow> setLabel("System shutdown");
13:16<rkulagow> addSelection("No exit key", "0");
13:16<rkulagow> addSelection("ESC", "4");
13:16<rkulagow> addSelection("Control-ESC", "1");
13:16<rkulagow> addSelection("Meta-ESC", "2");
13:16<rkulagow> addSelection("Alt-ESC", "3");
13:16<rkulagow> setHelpText("Mythtv is designed to run continuously. If you wish, "
13:16<rkulagow> "you may use the ESC key or the ESC key + a modifier to exit "
13:16<rkulagow> "mythtv.");
13:16<rkulagow> };
13:16<rkulagow>};
13:16<rkulagow>time to try it...
13:16<Chutt>ah, right, i was wrong with that "4" before
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13:25<rkulagow>chutt, just for consistency sake, how do you want mythtv referred to in the various docs. mixed case, Mythvideo, Mythtv, etc, all lowercase, etc?
13:25<Chutt>heh
13:25<Chutt>i dunno
13:25<Chutt>MythTV
13:25<Chutt>MythMusic
13:25<Chutt>i guess
13:28<rkulagow>ok, so capital M Myth, capital First letter for the second word, run-on. Sound right?
13:29<Chutt>yeah
13:29<Chutt>the actual binary names will always be all lowercase, though
13:31<ntl|afk>Chutt, I started working on that shutdown/wakeup stuff, ok, I started thinking about it, and I came to the point, that I'd like to have the mythserver knows on its own, what to do, so ...
13:32<ntl|afk>it shuts down, if, for example, no client is connected and no recording will start in the next 30 minutes or so.
13:32<Chutt>ok
13:32<ntl|afk>It should support stuff like wakeonlan, so it can be waken up by the client
13:32-!-ntl|afk is now known as nevertheless
13:35<hurdel>i'm trying to dl the non-us version of debian with jigdo, not having any luck, somebody care to enlighten me (i know it's OT, sorry)
13:45<hurdel>can't find a server that has the template file for non-US
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14:02<nevertheless>how is the status of PiP ?
14:32<Chutt>rkulagow, osddisplaytime is how long the program info is shown on channel change
14:33<rkulagow>ok, sorry. will fix...
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14:42<Chutt>thanks =)
14:43<vektor>Chutt!
14:44<Chutt>hey
14:44<Chutt>how's it going?
14:45<vektor>Not bad.
14:45<vektor>How about you?
14:45<vektor>Happy new year.
14:45<vektor>BTW, european frequency tables suck ass. :)
14:45<Chutt>and the silly way they setup their tvs, too
14:45<vektor>Do you know how they setup their TVs?
14:46<Chutt>well, i suppose if you only get 4 channels
14:46<vektor>I'm thinking the best way we can attack this is to download a PDF manual for a Sony TV from europe. :)
14:46<Chutt>heh
14:46<Chutt>apparently, the tv scans for channels, and the user maps the channels it finds to a single button on the remote
14:46<vektor>Yeah.
14:47<Chutt>at least in the uk
14:47<vektor>There's actually a reasonable description of a possible solution in the DX8 docs.
14:47<vektor>Like, Microsoft of course found the same problem etc.
14:47<vektor>Their solution is quite silly too.
14:47<Chutt>someone almost finished support for that back in august or something for mythtv
14:48<Chutt>what'd ms do?
14:48<vektor>Well, they have their tuner frequencies.
14:49<vektor>And then if none of them work, they have a master table of all known frequencies.
14:49<vektor>Even ones that they've seen in 'the wild' but aren't on any lists.
14:49<vektor>And they just use that and scan from that.
14:51<Chutt>some guy said something on my mailing list about how he can't understand how we can just refer to things by channel number
14:51<Chutt>since there's a limited number of channels, and how can we transmit different channels on the same numbers without interference
14:51<vektor>Ahahahaha.
14:52<vektor>Yeah, um, cable rocks that way.
14:52<nevertheless>I had those problems too (here in germany), my solution was to change the frequencies to my needs, but thats no way for the public :-)
14:52<vektor>Well, the other part of the MS solution is to give two names to any channel.
14:53<vektor>One is the frequency name, one is the channel assigned number/name.
14:53<Chutt>i've got it so that you can change how the up/down channel keys select the next channel
14:53<vektor>It's an annoying UI problem though to figure out what the user means.
14:53<Chutt>so you _can_ order things strangely there
14:53<vektor>This is why I'm going to try and emulate a european TV UI.
14:53<Chutt>vektor, but you better comment your code more, or else no one can work on it
14:54<vektor>What do you mean? :)
14:54<Chutt>just being sarcastic
14:54<vektor>I hope you don't mean my stupid frequencies.h
14:54<Chutt>=)
14:54<nevertheless>Chutt: you talk about commenting? ;-)
14:54<vektor>Oh ok. :)
14:54<Chutt>i've gotten a couple people bitching about the lack of commenting in my source lately
14:54<vektor>Ahahahahaha.
14:54<vektor>That's hilarious :)
14:55<vektor>Open source => users can comment my code. ;-)
14:55<nevertheless>oh :-)
14:55<vektor>Now I'm being sarcastic :)
14:56<Chutt>hh
14:56<Chutt>err, heh
14:56<Chutt>almost have pip working again
14:57<Chutt>=)
14:57<nevertheless>:)
14:57<Chutt>i need to hook up the 2nd tuner in this box, first
14:59<poptix_>Chutt: what are your thoughts on having a hotkey, or immediate channel change in the EPG?
14:59<Chutt>hit m
14:59<poptix_>so that the TV window in the corner updates
14:59<Chutt>oh, there?
14:59<Chutt>sure
14:59<poptix_>yeah
14:59<poptix_>hotkey, or auto?
14:59<poptix_>or option
14:59<poptix_>(for auto)
15:00<Chutt>i'd want it to be a hotkey, i think
15:00<Chutt>but either could work..
15:00<poptix_>there were 3 choices =p
15:00<Chutt>well, hotkey/auto
15:00<Chutt>with it selectable between the two
15:05<poptix_>alright.
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15:10<Chutt>want me to do that, or you planning on it?
15:17<poptix_>i planned on doing it
15:18<poptix_>shouldn't be much of a patch, heh.
15:18<Chutt>naw, should be really easy
15:18<mdz_>Chutt: hey I got this weird message when compiling mythtv
15:18<mdz_>Chutt: it says "warning: something something". is that a warning or an error+
15:18<mdz_>?
15:18<Chutt>i don't know
15:18<Chutt>it could be a warning
15:18<Chutt>but i may be reading the error messagr wrong
15:18<mdz_>ok thought so
15:19<Chutt>thanks, bye
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15:31<Chutt>mdz, i'm going to resync libavcodec
15:31<Chutt>maybe that'll fix the bad free()
15:35<mdz_>I searched a bit to see if anyone else had the problem
15:36<Chutt>i don't think i've seen it reported on their list at all
15:36<poptix_>Chutt: mythtv grabs the channel from the EPG via the exit code, correct?
15:36<mdz_>but I got distracted at some point and didn't make it as far as checking ffmpeg CVS
15:36<Chutt>poptix, not in cvs
15:36<poptix_>Chutt: no?
15:37<Chutt>it calls GuideGrid::getLastChannel() in cvs
15:37<poptix_>hmm
15:37<poptix_>and where is that filled at? the SQL db?
15:38<poptix_>nevermind, i'll track it down
15:38<Chutt>filled at?
15:38<poptix_>need to go shovel some snow
15:38<Chutt>it's in the class
15:39<Chutt>the guidegrid is part of the program, it's not run separately
15:39<Chutt>it _can_ be run separately, of course =)
15:50<PeteCool>does it matter which version of v4l I use?
15:50<rkulagow>chutt: is the following correct?
15:50<rkulagow> VertScanPercentage():
15:50<rkulagow> SpinBoxSetting(-100, 100, 1),
15:50<rkulagow> GlobalSetting("VertScanPercentage") {
15:50<rkulagow> setLabel("Vertical over/underscan percentage");
15:50<rkulagow> setValue(0);
15:50<rkulagow> setHelpText("This setting controls the over and underscan. "
15:50<rkulagow> "Use this to adjust the screen if the image does "
15:50<rkulagow> "not fill your screen vertically");
15:50<rkulagow>(the help text portion)
15:53<hurdel>what table stores the recorded shows in cvs?
15:54<hurdel>i have no recorded shows right now so i can't check
15:57<mdz_>rkulagow: the first sentence doesn't tell the user anything new
15:57<hurdel>i'm guessing the recorded table, but i now lots of the recording stuff got moved around recently
15:58<mdz_>hurdel: recorded
16:03<hurdel>thanks
16:21<rkulagow>mdz: yep, you're right - i'll get rid of it. is the second portion correct?
16:22<Chutt>yup
16:23<rkulagow>chutt: thanks. how can i encode parens and double-quotes?
16:23<rkulagow>(meaning, \ escapes, or something else)
16:23<Chutt>\"
16:23<Chutt>parens should work normally, without escaping
16:24<rkulagow>right; forgot that we're already using that in the "(in seconds)" portions of the help text.
16:30<mdz_>I would say "adjust this if the image does not fill your screen vertically"
16:32<rkulagow>mdz: sounds good to me.
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17:47<poptix_>Chutt: what processor and quality/resolution settings are you using?
17:53<mdz_>poptix_: all of the info about Chutt's setup is on the website
17:56<poptix_>mmkay.
18:05<rkulagow>mdz, chutt: is this correct for XMLTV time offset?
18:05<rkulagow>
18:05<rkulagow> setHelpText("If your local timezone does not match the timezone "
18:05<rkulagow> "returned by XMLTV, use this setting to automatically adjust the "
18:05<rkulagow> "program start and end times.");
18:05<nevertheless>yepp
18:05<mdz_>that sounds right
18:06<rkulagow>thanks.
18:07<nevertheless>rkulagow: btw, that is my stuff, too ;-)
18:10<rkulagow>nevertheless: i was just going through and starting to get help text in there. don't want to step on your toes if you want other text; not my code...
18:11<nevertheless>hehe, I just said that, because the two major setHelpText things you 'discussed' here, were my things, and maybe I should have done that :)
18:12<nevertheless>thats what vector previously said: its opensource <=> so other people can comment my code :-)
18:12<yebyen>mythweather? that's awesome
18:13<Chutt>poptix, xp 1800+, 640x480 @ 1.5GB/hour mpeg4, audio at 96kbps mp3.
18:16<Chutt>sometimes i bump it up to 2GB/hour if it's something i'll be keeping for more than a single viewing
18:17<mdz_>Chutt: with a profile or changing the default profile?
18:17<Chutt>changing the default for now
18:21<nevertheless>is the LiveTV video setup the default one for LifeTV (already) ? how about the other 'standard' ones?
18:24<mdz_>nevertheless: the "Live TV" profile is used for Live TV, Default is used for recordings
18:24<mdz_>currently
18:41<nevertheless>ok, thx
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18:43<poptix_>hey Chutt
18:44<poptix_>have you looked over the LinuxDVB stuff?
18:44<poptix_>they've got their own API, and i'm thinking those cards pump out mpeg data
18:44<poptix_>which would make it a good API to follow for these other PVR cards
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19:22<TheAsp>found a bug
19:24<TheAsp>having the extra record before/after setting > 0 it wont record the show before and after it
19:41<nevertheless>so, again, any gentoo'er around?
19:41<TheAsp>hah
19:42<TheAsp>i think most of us use debian
19:42<nevertheless>but i know, there are some gentoo'ers :-)
19:48<nevertheless>I just jumped back to vanilla 2.4.20 and Im not able to play PiP without problems, I get sound stops every about 4 seconds :-(
19:49<nevertheless>the cpu takes about 40% during that
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20:35* paperclipis back (gone 08:10:38)
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20:58<Soopizzle>vektor, how goes your tv time?
21:01<vektor>It goes well.
21:01<Soopizzle>what is the url again?
21:04<Soopizzle>n/m
21:16<TheAsp>hmmm
21:16<TheAsp>my listings end tomorow
21:19<TheAsp>zap2it gave us a page with no channels
21:19<TheAsp>dumping HTML page to ZapListings.dump.1
21:19<TheAsp>nifty
21:19<Chutt>what version of xmltv?
21:19<TheAsp>0.5.6 according to debian
21:20<Chutt>might want to reconfigure the grabber
21:20<TheAsp>did
21:20<TheAsp>no diff
21:20<Chutt>welp, then, i dunno
21:20<TheAsp>the dump looks like it's on the password screen
21:24<TheAsp>hmmm
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22:46<TheAsp>AHH!
22:46<TheAsp>had the remains of an old xmltv install
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