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#mythtv IRC Logs for 2003-03-20

00:05<thor_>myth has crossed a threshold of popularity, HTML mail on the user list !
00:13<Chutt>thor, i'm not sure if i like the multiple playlists being 'active' thing
00:13<Chutt>it seems kind of redundant to have that
00:13<thor_>say again
00:13<Chutt>you've got the playlist being listed twice in the tree
00:13<Chutt>once in the top tree, with the tracks and stuff
00:14<thor_>not necessarily
00:14<Chutt>and once down below in the 'select and edit playlists'
00:14<thor_>if you're playlists (below) have dependencies (other playlists), then they disappear from above
00:15<thor_>if there were only one below, how would you change "active"
00:15<Chutt>you don't change active
00:15<Chutt>active is always the same
00:15<Chutt>what you have as 'default'
00:16<Chutt>if you want to play a playlist, it gets added to that
00:16<thor_>ok, but you still need the list below, because the list above is dependent on lists within lists
00:17<Chutt>can't just grey out what you'd make disappear?
00:17<thor_>uhm ... sure ... why not
00:17<thor_>:-)
00:18<Chutt>i'm just not liking having the lists in two places =)
00:18<thor_>But then you only have check boxes, which means you need another key to do popups
00:18<Chutt>that's fine, i'd like to have another key to do popups
00:19<thor_>And I tried like hell to keep everyting to arrows, ESC and Space
00:19<Chutt>to delete a playlist, you have to make it active, then select it again to get the popup
00:19<Chutt>rather just have a dedicated info button
00:20<Chutt>that shows the popup
00:21<thor_>OK ... "i" key? Is that the binding for EPG?
00:21<Chutt>yup
00:21<Chutt>hmm
00:21<Chutt>if you can't select other playlists as 'active'
00:21<thor_>...
00:21<Chutt>is the inifinite recursive problem still there?
00:22<thor_>well, you want to be able to copy "default" to "new playlist"
00:23<thor_>you then make a new one that includes "new playlist"
00:23<thor_>then you can't go back into new playlist and refernce that "new one" (last one)
00:23<thor_>or .... infinite recursion
00:24* Ndiinwaits impatiently for the "Select Music" menu option to work..
00:25<thor_>It works, this is more of a debate about aesthetics and UI ;-)
00:25<Ndiin>Should it be taking long the first time, with your patch, thor?
00:25<Chutt>heh
00:25<Chutt>thor, this works rather well, though =)
00:25<thor_>Ndiin, hope note
00:26<thor_>hop not
00:26<thor_>hope not
00:26<Ndiin>hmm, then its locked
00:26<Chutt>you're not sorting the in-ram tracks, though, are you?
00:26<Ndiin>It is on about 13gb of mp3s..
00:26<Chutt>so it may have a bunch of work to do to turn it into a tree
00:27<thor_>Not yet, but there are all kinds of comments to myself in the code such as "SPEED THIS UP", should be presorted
00:27<Ndiin>if my cpu weren't already pegged, this would be pegging it..
00:27<thor_>Ndiin, did you run mythmusic, or ./mythmusic
00:27<Chutt>thor, basically, i think that if you moved the 'select and edit playlists' for the non-default playlist functionality up into the 'Playlists' bit
00:28<Ndiin>mythmusic
00:28<Chutt>then made 'Select and Edit Playlists' basically just be the 'Default' tree item
00:28<Chutt>that should work fairly well
00:28<thor_>As I claimed :-), it works, it's just a question of tweaking the tree
00:28<Chutt>yeah
00:29<Chutt>so things would only be listed once =)
00:29<thor_>Ndiin, after patch, then make install?
00:29<Chutt>maybe move the playlists bit outside of the 'All Music' tree
00:29<Chutt>to be a separate top level item
00:29<Ndiin>correct thor.
00:29<Ndiin>I like the startup progress dialog btw, nice touch ;)
00:30<thor_>Ndiin, after make install, did you re-edit /usr/local/share/myth/mythmusic-settings.txt?
00:30<Chutt>thor, i'll steal the playlists icon from freeamp and check that into cvs =)
00:30<Ndiin>I use a package system that didnt overwrite it, thor.
00:30<Ndiin>TreeLevels=directory, though.
00:31<thor_>Chutt, ... crap ... how do we change order
00:31<Chutt>same way you are now
00:31<thor_>Ndiin, hang on
00:31<Chutt>the playlists above can list things like the current stuff does in 'select and edit'
00:31<thor_>as well as subplaylists?
00:32<Chutt>well, i'd assume they'd just list: Playlist <blah> like now
00:32<thor_>OK, at playlist top level (above) you get tracks (you can move) or playlists (like now) you can move
00:34<Chutt>yup
00:34<thor_>Ndiin, TreeLevels stuff is probably wildly broken. Anything you can do to let me know where it's hanging would be good
00:34<Ndiin>Just about to take a peek.
00:36<thor_> Chutt, I think this will work ... but I had a pretty stiff gin and tonic after I posted the patch, so who knows?
00:36<Chutt>heh
00:37<thor_>My only point of reluctance is the extra key binding, but that's not really an issue
00:38<Ndiin>Just to make sure it was "directory" causing the problem, I swapped it.. works fine with "artist album track", etc.
00:38<thor_>Ndiin, code you want to look at is in databasebox.cpp, just above a call to recurseDivinely() in fillLists()
00:39<Ndiin>Cheers
00:41<thor_>Chutt, do you have a policy on Qt version (see dev)?
00:42<Chutt>i'd like things to work with 3.0
00:42<thor_>Yeah, plus it's in libmyth ... hang on, I'm checking old Qt docs
00:43<Chutt>even though 3.1 came out back in november
00:46<Chutt>there
00:46<Chutt>just checked in a decent enough playlist icon
00:46<Chutt>matches the rest of the tree icons
00:46<Chutt>at least
00:48<thor_>Chutt, Qt thing fixed
00:48<Chutt>thanks
00:49<thor_>Will use the new icon, now all I need is a decent UP/DOWN one
00:49<Chutt>heh
00:49<Chutt>sorry, don't have one for that =)
00:49<thor_>I'll find a kde arrow somewhere and twist it around
01:00<Ndiin>thor_: ok, its infinite looping through the subdirectory loops..
01:01<Ndiin>the actual for loop is repeating infinately
01:03<thor_>Ndiin, it's way past my bedtime ... can you send me an e-mail (mythtv@lamedomainname.com) or post to dev?
01:03<Ndiin>Scratch that. its the while loop that parents that, heh
01:03<Ndiin>yeah, ill do some more research
01:03<thor_>thanks
01:15<Ndiin>Its a one liner btw... you missed a search_pool.remove(iter); in pullMetadataFromPool()
01:16-!-nziarek [~nathanzia@rrcs-central-24-123-26-202.biz.rr.com] has joined #MythTV
01:40<moegreen>nziarek/Chutt: More pronounced shadowing for the bottom information text - yes/no? http://www.untzuntz.com/mythtv/testing/myth-playback-winfo.jpg
01:48<Ndiin>interesting layout
01:53<Viddy>hax even
01:54* Viddychuckles at the domain name
01:59<moegreen>Ndiin: there are some other screenshots in that dir that show it w/ the transparency stuff
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02:23<poptix>you know
02:23<poptix>i don't think any of the local crappy commercials are interlaced
02:23<poptix>the ones AT&T slaps on top of the actual network commercials
02:29<bigguy>wouldn't surprise me
02:32<poptix>well, i can easily detect the interlaced effects on a computer monitor
02:32<poptix>none of the AT&T-local commercials (which look like they were filmed with a 5 year old home camcorder) have it
02:33<poptix>usually commercials for car sales places, or some other local crappy business
03:05<bigguy>OA
03:05* bigguyis [away -={ S.L.E.E.P }=- ]
03:05<bigguy>later
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13:35<orangey>hey guys!
13:36<orangey>long time no see : )
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14:04<moegreen>hey
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14:37<merf>mythgame doesn't see any of my games :(
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15:21-!-zap30 [zap@81.5.172.69] has joined #mythtv
15:22<zap30>Hi all is there anybody here who might be able to help me setting up mythtv ?
15:22<Ndiin>the documentation is quite robust.
15:23<zap30>yeah I know, but I am new to linux and have been trying for 3 days on Mandrake 9.0 & RH 8.0
15:26<zap30>I am currently stuck on 4.1 in Mandrake I cannot create the correct path & don't know why ?
15:27<Soopaman>zap30, install debian
15:27<Soopaman>and grab the mythtv packages
15:27<bigguy>Soopaman: debian may not be that easy for him being a linux newbie
15:28<bigguy>mandrake should be about the easiest for newbies
15:28<bigguy>anyway bbl
15:28<Soopaman>hardware detection yes
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15:59<zap30>can anyone suggest anything for me ?
16:00<Chutt>sure, we magically know what your problem is.
16:03<Soopaman>heheh
16:04<Soopaman>zap30, i would seriously suggest going the debian route
16:04<Chutt>that's a silly suggestion
16:04<Chutt>it works perfectly well on other dists
16:07<Soopaman>heheh
16:07<Soopaman>are there pre-made packages
16:07<Soopaman>for those other dists?
16:07<Chutt>yup.
16:08<Soopaman>dummyfied packages?
16:08<Chutt>as far as i know
16:08<Soopaman>oh, then get off your ass and read the faq zap30
16:08<Soopaman>i thought only debian had the pre-built packages
16:49<mdz>there are 0.8 RPMs as of yesterday or so
16:49<mdz>I don't think they automatically set up the database or anything fancy like that (yet), but that stuff is well documented anyway
16:50<mdz>the Debian packages are mostly aimed at Debian users; I wouldn't suggest that a new Linux user switch to Debian just to use the packages
16:50<mdz>any benefit they would get from the packages would be offset by having to learn Debian
16:50<bigguy>I agree
16:52<zap30>I came here as a last resort as I just can't seem to work out where I am going wrong. I have spent the last few days trawling the net for info.
16:52<Chutt>you haven't said what's wrong
16:52<Chutt>if you want help, do so
16:52<Chutt>otherwise, you're just wasting people's time
16:54<zap30>as I said earlier I cannot set the correct path as the instructions say in chapter 4.1
16:54<Chutt>the instructions in part 4.1 tell you exactly what to type in.
16:54<Chutt>saying that you can't set it gives absolutely no indication of what you're doing wrong.
16:56<zap30>thats what I have done I type cd /etc/profile.d but it returns me to # prompt
16:56<Chutt>err, and what's wrong with that?
16:57<zap30>ok it looks like in the instruction you should not get a # prompt
16:57<Chutt>if you're really this new to linux
16:57<Chutt>you shouldn't be using this stuff at all.
16:58<merf>zap30: it's probably because you're logged in as root or something
16:58<merf>the prompt doesn't really matter
16:58<merf>(well, it does, but not right now)
16:59<zap30>however if I continue I and set the path as per the instructions and come out of shell when I go back in and type set the path shown is not correct
16:59<zap30>not logged in as root
17:02<zap30>I am also just trying to learn ! got to start somewhere
17:03<mdz>zap30: start with the basics. mythtv is a difficult application right now.
17:04<merf>zap30: once you make the mythtv.sh file, you need to logout and log back in
17:05<merf>after you chmod a+x it, too
17:08<zap30>merf this is exactly what I have done
17:09<Chutt>then figure out yourself why it's not working
17:09<Chutt>you need to learn how to use linux
17:09<merf>Chutt: and this is how he's gonna
17:09<Chutt>by asking questions in an irc channel?
17:09<merf>zap30: type the two 'export' lines in your shell
17:09<Chutt>hardly
17:10<merf>Chutt: how'd you learn?
17:10<Chutt>by figuring things out on my own?
17:10<merf>zap30: that'll set those variables, but they won't be set in any other shell
17:10<merf>you never asked any questions?
17:10<bigguy>Chutt: as did alot of people
17:10<Chutt>not really, no
17:10<bigguy>merf: I didn't
17:11<Chutt>there's plenty of resources out there
17:11<merf>i dunno
17:11<merf>Chutt: agreed
17:11<merf>there's definitely the answer to any question if you take time to look
17:11<merf>but i'm lazy as hell, and if i can get a quick answer off some irc nerd, then i will :D
17:11<Chutt>by doing that, you're saying that your time is more important than mine
17:12<Chutt>and that's not the case :p
17:12<merf>not really
17:12<merf>i'm saying 'you know, so tell me'
17:12<merf>and if you don't have time to or don't want to, then don't
17:12<merf>:D
17:12<merf>but don't hassle me if i ask a lame question
17:12<merf>everyone was a newb once
17:12<merf></lameness>
17:12<merf>anyways, i'm going now
17:13<zap30>thanks merf
17:14<merf>np
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17:21<setre>Is there anyway possible that I could write a driver for a tuner/bttv card to make the tuner switch fast enough to be able to watch/capture two channels at the same time?
17:22<Chutt>nope
17:22<bigguy>erm
17:22<setre>why not?
17:22<Chutt>switch channels in xawtv
17:22<Chutt>that's how fast you can switch channels in the driver
17:23<Chutt>the hardware is not capable of doing that fast enough.
17:23<setre>I wonder why the h/w is that slow
17:24<setre>does anyone now of cards with fast tuners?
17:24<Chutt>buy another card.
17:24<Ndiin>if nothing else, the audio would cut out.
17:24<setre>Chutt: It should be possible to do this with one fast card
17:24<Ndiin>the video isnt necessarily the problem
17:24<Chutt>no, it shouldn't
17:24<Chutt>why wouldn't you want two cards?
17:25<setre>Chutt: why not? (~25 fps)x2 just isn't that fast
17:25<Chutt>just being cheap?
17:26<Chutt>how fast can you change channels on a regular tv?
17:26<setre>Chutt: it's more that I find the idea interesting
17:27<setre>Chutt: regular tv's are oldschool
17:27<Chutt>yeah, whatever
17:28<Chutt>it takes a nonzero amount of time for the tuner to lock into the channel
17:28<setre>Chutt: perhaps I need to build a new tuner then
17:28<Chutt>unless you're willing to sacrifice frame rate
17:28<setre>I am not
17:29<Chutt>then how can you grab two frames from two different sources that are being transmitted at the exact same time with one tuner?
17:29<Ndiin>you can't, the best you could possibly achieve is halved framerate.
17:29<Chutt>exactly
17:29<Chutt>and you won't even get that
17:29<setre>ok, you guys are right.
17:30<setre>but I think, a bit between half and full framerate should be possible still
17:30<Chutt>half would be the maximium
17:30<Chutt>if you could switch in absolutely 0 time
17:30<Ndiin>theres no backbuffer for the frames..
17:30<Chutt>but that's not possible
17:30<Ndiin>once transmitted, you cant get the frame back
17:30<setre>they are on different channels, hence have different bandwidth, and different transfer time
17:36<setre>anyway, to whoever contributed to mythtv, I just want to say thanks, and great work! it is neat indeed!
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18:40<Chutt>why are people telling me how to release my software?
18:42<thor_>Chutt, it's a lot easier to have an opinion than it is to do something
18:43<Chutt>i don't remember seeing any major bugs that would necessitate a new release in the very short term
18:44<Chutt>so why is it even an issue?
18:47<thor_>Chutt, just to be sure ... you want only the (implicitly) active playlist active (ie. move things up/down) in the bottom tree, correct?
18:48<thor_>playlist active^H^H^H^H^H^H
18:48<Chutt>yeah
18:48<Chutt>i think that'll work better
18:49<moegreen>Chutt: did you see the screenshot w/ the shadowing on the words?
18:49<Chutt>nope
18:49<moegreen>myth-playback-winfo.jpg
18:50<thor_>It's **much** cleaner, but I worry slightly that some users will never realize they can save "Current" as something else (mystery key press). Code later tonight.
18:50<moegreen>I just wanted to see if you think I should make the shadowing more pronounced or less
18:50<Chutt>little drop shadow action?
18:50<moegreen>yeah
18:50<moegreen>that whole area is now done w/ drawText methods
18:50<Chutt>so the bottom's being drawn now, not using qlabels?
18:50<moegreen>right
18:50<Chutt>make it configurable how much, problem solved =)
18:50<Chutt>like the menu code does
18:51<moegreen>Chutt: could I just use the menu value? :)
18:53<Chutt>hmmm
18:53<Chutt>actually, yeah
18:53<Chutt>well, how will you get to it, though?
18:54<moegreen>I am having problems w/ getting the video to display. I'm not using the pixlabel anymore - I've got the threads starting and I think the data is being generated but I'm not sure how to display it
18:54<moegreen>Chutt: I didn't know if it was saved in the gcontext object
18:54<Chutt>it's not
18:54<Chutt>bbl, dinner
18:57<merf>Chutt: are you the infamous isaac?
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19:10<merf>unknown position <-- what the heck is that?
19:15<moegreen>merf: that's an rather vague question when asked out of context - where are you seeing that?
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20:10-!-mythtv is now known as rkulagow__
20:21<rkulagow__>woot! got that new dell server today, about 2 weeks ahead of schedule. it's most excellent. i was worried that it was going to be big and noisy, but it's no bigger than any of my mid tower boxes, and it's actually _quieter_ than my regular piii/733
20:22<moegreen>nice...is this a purchase for MythTV?
20:23<rkulagow__>pretty much. first box i've got with decent CPU; 2.4Ghz should be enough for at least two tuners.
20:24-!-Ndiin [ruler@ip68-104-131-43.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #mythtv
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21:00<JonnyRo>hello
21:13<moegreen>hello
21:14<JonnyRo>hows it going?
21:14<JonnyRo>I was curious if anyone has been able to get mythtv to compile on cygwin
21:15<JonnyRo>My wife wants to watch video from my linux mythbox on her windows pc
21:15<JonnyRo>she only cares about mythfrontend
21:16<JonnyRo>Someday soon I hope to get her to switch over to Linux
21:18<moegreen>I think some people have tried with no success...there are others that are interested in that functionality (the viewing via Windows)
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21:21<moegreen>ok...thanks for stopping by
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21:47<Ndiin>Not the awnser he wanted, I suppose.
21:49<moegreen>heh, true
21:50<Ndiin>Almost time to try this new nwn linux client..
21:51<Chutt>if that had come out last summer, i would be intersted in it
21:52<Chutt>nwn was fun for awhile, but...
21:52<Ndiin>yeah, my sentiments are similar.
21:52<Ndiin>But, I always play a game at least twice.
21:52<Chutt>i don't have time for that =)
21:52<Ndiin>I barely do anymore, heh
21:53<Chutt>just a few more days until the new zelda
21:53<Chutt>and i've still got another game to finish before then, if i can
21:53<Ndiin>hehe
21:55<moegreen>Chutt: I've got the playbackbox resizing to the gui, and I got the video working
21:55<moegreen>I think all I need to do is some coding to show the "amount of space available" bar
21:55<Chutt>cool
21:56<moegreen>do you want to take a quick look at the code and see if you see anything you'd like changed?
21:56<Chutt>sure
21:56<moegreen>alright, I'll package it up w/ the graphics and email it to you
21:56<Chutt>cool =)
21:56<Chutt>i'm thinking of working on the osd, next
21:57<Chutt>make it more flexible and stuff
21:58<Soopaman>how is slackware as a dist?
21:58<Ndiin>Slackware used to be a good do-it-yourselfer, a few steps up from LFS.. dunno how it is now though
22:00<Justin_>Soopaman: ever use debian?
22:01<moegreen>Chutt: it should default to the transparent pics, use PlayBoxTransparency = 0 to see the solids
22:01<Chutt>ok
22:01<Ndiin> I use gentoo myself.. I like the ease of patching packages, etc. *shrug*
22:05<Chutt>bit of program title leaking over =)
22:05<moegreen>which part?
22:06<Chutt>into the next box
22:06<moegreen>one of the smaller titles?
22:07<Chutt>one of the longer
22:07<Chutt>just like part of a character
22:07<moegreen>right longer, but the smaller font titles on the left hand side?
22:07<Chutt>yeah
22:08<Chutt>cool, the non transparent stuff is definately fast enough
22:08<moegreen>I might have mis-copied the value to the ints I just added
22:08<Soopaman>Justin_, yeah i learnt linux on debian, the only thing i am against are the old ass kernels they insist on using
22:08<Soopaman>that and i could never get my self compiled kernels to init on it
22:08<moegreen>yeah, that stuff is pretty quick - well really quick if you don't have the video on
22:08<Justin_>Soopaman: uh well then 3 things
22:08<Justin_>1, debian does not come with old kernels
22:08<Chutt>do static preview pixmaps work?
22:09<moegreen>yeah, they should
22:09<Justin_>2, if your kernels didn't work, you had no business compiling them
22:09<Chutt>not working here
22:09<Chutt>but, that could be something else
22:09<moegreen>unless I broke them :)
22:09<moegreen>let me check
22:09<Justin_>and 3, slackware is debian with all the good stuff removed, so it you didnt like debian, your not going to like slackware
22:09<Soopaman>heh ok
22:09<moegreen>and it would be that I broke them
22:11<moegreen>oh, hehe, tmp.drawPixmap((int)(600*wmult), (int)(400*hmult), temp); should be 40, not 400
22:11<Chutt>it doesn't deal well with programs without a subtitle
22:11<moegreen>I changed that because I thought it was a typ-o before :)
22:11<moegreen>I have it that way by design (you mean the info moving up)
22:11<moegreen>but it can change
22:11<Chutt>well, it's blank
22:11<Chutt>=)
22:12<Justin_>shouldnt the 600 be 60 then?
22:12<Chutt>nope
22:12<moegreen>Justin_: no the 600 refers to the length across the entire screen
22:12<Justin_>oh:)
22:12<moegreen>the 40 is the amount down from the top of that particular box
22:13<Justin_>ah:)
22:14<Chutt>wait
22:14<Chutt>hmm
22:14<Chutt>i restarted, and it wasn't blank anymore
22:14<Chutt>was filled with the title
22:14<Chutt>but before, it wasn't showing anything
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22:15<Chutt>weird
22:16<moegreen>hmmm...
22:16<Chutt>it shows the title until i select with it
22:16<Chutt>other thing is, preview pixmaps still aren't working =)
22:17<moegreen>yeah, i forgot I actually put the video in it's own Rect so it wouldn't keep updating the info
22:17<Chutt>all in all, though, very cool =)
22:19<moegreen>well ... it's close :)
22:19<Chutt>yup
22:19<Chutt>how are you going to handle the progress bar?
22:19<Chutt>draw your own, or embed a qt widget?
22:20<moegreen>I'm not sure ... I was thinking maybe another png that would just be cut off at the right length
22:20<moegreen>I think that would give the most flexibility
22:20<moegreen>then the other thing I need to do is let the Rect()'s sizes be define so the layout can change some
22:21<moegreen>if desired
22:21<moegreen>but deleting and playing works
22:21<Chutt>xml, probably
22:21<Chutt>would be easiest
22:21<moegreen>yeah, there are a lot of options
22:21<Chutt>fit in with the existing theme stuff
22:22<moegreen>I guess I can keep all these settings in here, then if the theme designer can change just one or two things if he/she wants to
22:26<moegreen>Chutt: what was the problem w/ programs with not subtitle? I have it so the Airdate:/Channel:/etc move up to fill in it's place - this lets the description be 3 lines
22:26<moegreen>err with no subtitle
22:31<Chutt>in the top listings
22:31<Chutt>if it's on the preview pixmap
22:31<Chutt>it'll show the title in place of the subtitle at first
22:31<Chutt>then clear it out when the item is selected
22:31<Chutt>and show an empty subtitle instead
22:35<moegreen>hmm...I'm still not following. I'll look into it
22:36<Chutt>well, the subtitle originally wasn't shown, the channel/airdate moved up
22:36<Chutt>but after it was selected in the program list
22:36<Chutt>there was a line with
22:36<Chutt>" "
22:36<Chutt>on it
22:37<moegreen>odd...I've got the preview pixmaps working again
22:44<Chutt>To test the performance of my computer, I ran some totally unrelated software!
22:51<Ndiin>Isn't that how most people do it, Chutt? ;)
23:13<poptix>Chutt: my bogomips are bigger than your bogomips.
23:15<bigguy>poptix: that's not what my calculations show
23:15<bigguy>;)
23:15<bigguy>and the satalite imagery backs me up
23:15<bigguy>;)
23:16<poptix>damn.
23:17<bigguy><hick>that'll learn you.</hick>
23:19<poptix>i found someone interested in adding mpeg[1/2] support to mythtv
23:19<poptix>for a case of beer
23:19<poptix>=p
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23:24<Chutt>poptix, he'd be willing to do it properly? =)
23:24<Chutt>unlike all those people on the list..
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23:34<bigguy>lots of people say they'll do stuff
23:34<bigguy>very few come through
23:34<Chutt>ayup
23:35<bigguy>don't you love how everyone tells you how you need to handle developemnt
23:36<Chutt>i'm just ignoring it
23:36<bigguy>eh
23:36<Chutt>other than making random comments in here
23:36<bigguy>heh even
23:36<bigguy>I log but it's still hard trying to go back and read stuff
23:38<bigguy>oh finally someone says something about the politeness of html email
23:45<poptix>Chutt: yes
23:45<poptix>Chutt: this guy writes kernel drivers for a living
23:46<poptix>thats another reason i'm not willing to even bother wrapping my brain around it, i _know_ i can't do it right =p