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#mythtv IRC Logs for 2003-09-03

---Logopened Wed Sep 03 00:03:16 2003
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00:29<hurdel>anybody here using gentoo?
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00:50<o_cee>hurdel: sure
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00:58<linagee>anyone know how to control transcode in mythtv? :) i have transcode installed already
00:58<o_cee>read the doc
00:59<linagee>which one? :)
00:59<o_cee>the only one.
01:13<linagee>do i have to have the recording running while transcoding? (with the manual 'X' key)
01:16<linagee>guess no
01:16<linagee>t
01:26<linagee>how do i cut out one part of a 3 hour show. that's the only part i care about. i want to delete the rest
01:29<o_cee>please, read the docs and keys.txt
01:29<o_cee>just press x to start the transcoding, then do whatever you want. the transcoding takes some time
01:29<o_cee>as the doc says.
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01:33<linagee>Space/Enter allows you to set or delete a cut point
01:33<linagee>space = set, enter = delete??
01:34<o_cee>heh.
01:34<o_cee>your computer won't blow up if you'd actually _try_ it.
01:35<linagee>i did try it. i can't figure it out
01:35<linagee>i can't set two points
01:35<linagee>it says "Position cleared"
01:36<linagee>am i using the wrong keys? :(
01:36<o_cee>probably. are you in edit mode at all?
01:36<linagee>ahh. edit mode. :)
01:36<dwmurphy2>there should be a help screen for this stuff :)
01:37<linagee>dwmurphy2: once you get it, you get it. :)
01:37<linagee>o_cee: ok, i did the editing. do i just leave edit mode or do i X from here or what?
01:37<linagee>:)
01:38<linagee>oic. x from here
01:38<linagee>or not
01:39<linagee>ah. good. i "get it" now. :)
01:40<o_cee>x to start, then exit out or whatever.
01:41<linagee>right. i get it now. :)
01:41<linagee>i was able just to clip out the good part. like 10 minutes of 3 hours of clip. :)
01:42<linagee>o_cee: is there i way i can see the queue list of transcoding stuff? or some kind of status? or is that not implemented yet...
01:45<o_cee>not that i know of
01:45<o_cee>look for mythtranscode with ps..
01:45<o_cee>and there's some output to the backend.
01:45<o_cee>that's all i know of, haven't used it much
01:45<linagee>i can see mythtranscode in my top-ing
01:46<o_cee>it will take some time
01:46<linagee>hehehe. can always see /proc/<mythtranscode_PID>/fd/* :)
01:46<linagee>see what file descriptors the transcoder is using. :)
01:47<linagee>o_cee: see. i'm not that much of a newbie. :) mythtv just takes a while to learn all the keys and stuff
01:48<o_cee>i know what you mean ;)
01:48<o_cee>at the moment a .old file will be created as well.. if the transcoded file is fucked
01:48<o_cee>if it's ok, remember to del the .old file :)
01:48<linagee>file descriptor 10 and 7 seem to be interested. (with mythtv's odd file naming)
01:48<o_cee>gotta run
01:48<linagee>s/ted/ing/
01:48<o_cee>later
01:48<linagee>later
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10:18<_rkulagow>sigh. "the docs aren't complete. not that i read them all, mind you".
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10:57<mdz_>_rkulagow: he's right, you know. they aren't complete.
10:57<mdz_>they don't tell you about how to turn on your computer
10:57<mdz_>or log in
10:57<mdz_>or ask intelligent questions
10:57<mdz_>or not be an ass
10:58<mdz_>there must be some good instructions somewhere about how to join an irc channel and bitch
10:58<mdz_>because there's no shortage of that
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11:02<Krondor>Could someone help me for a minute, I'm getting the dreaded "Backend stuffed up in RequestRingBufferBlock" error message!
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11:35<linagee_>what is the best way to keep mythbackend running?
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11:36<Krondor>linagee_: mythbackend -d
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12:08<sfr>anyone know what streaminput.cpp in mythmusic is used for? it's only doing s/t for protocol 'mqp' whatever that is.
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13:14<Chutt>sfr, hey, i can't remember, did you send the latest mythmusic patch?
13:14<sfr>Chutt, should be in your inbox.
13:15<Chutt>ok, i applied the most recent thing i had from you
13:15<Chutt>didn't commit it yet, because i wasn't sure
13:15<Chutt>the streaminput.cpp stuff is ancient code from mq3 (which is what i based mythmusic off of)
13:15<Chutt>it's not used at all
13:15<Chutt>but, http input should be pretty similar
13:16<sfr>ok. figured that. i might reuse it for the webradio stuff.
13:16<Chutt>cool.
13:16<sfr>Chutt so mq3 was a similar program like mythmusic?
13:16<Chutt>mq3 was a qt-based music player
13:17<Chutt>the audio decoding was based off of freeamp
13:17<Chutt>in mq3, that is
13:17<Chutt>i used the audio decoding framework for mythmusic
13:17<Chutt>added cd audio / flac and all the ripping stuff
13:18<sfr>Chutt: i see. what is that mqp protocol that's mentioned? google doesn't seem to know about it.
13:18<Chutt>i think it was something specific to mq3
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13:18<Chutt>i have no idea, really =)
13:18<sfr>np
13:19<Chutt>i'll get your naming patch committed soon, then
13:19<Chutt>and sorry i took so long on that
13:19<sfr>ok
13:19<sfr>as long as it makes it in the next release :)
13:29<Chutt>it's in CVS now
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13:57<bline>ever thought about a -dvb list?
13:57<Chutt>not really
13:57<Chutt>i just ignore all those, basically
13:58<bline>heh
14:01<Chutt>i need to figure out how dithering works
14:01<Chutt>4-bit color sucks.
14:01<vektor>http://scanline.ca/dithering/
14:02<Chutt>vektor, i have xvmc decoding working nicely, now
14:02<Chutt>only problem is that the subpictures are only ia44 :(
14:02<vektor>Can you draw on top of it?
14:02<vektor>yeah.
14:02<Chutt>yeah, if i want 16 colors
14:02<vektor>DVD subtitles are terrible, btw.
14:02<vektor>you only get four colours
14:03<vektor>and each of those has a static alpha value
14:03<vektor>so you can't antialias properly
14:03<vektor>I think that's what IA44 is, no?
14:03<vektor>You sure you get a full 16 colour palette over the whole image?
14:03<Chutt>ia44 is 4 bits of alpha, 4 bits of paletted yuv
14:03<Chutt>yeah
14:03<vektor>Yeah that's what I thought.
14:03<vektor>Hmm.
14:03<Chutt>i'm probably just going to use greyscale
14:03<vektor>Nah, that's not really what I thought.
14:04<vektor>Check out my dithering page :)
14:04<Chutt>problem is converting my yv12 image with alpha to ia44 and making it look nice.
14:05<Chutt>well, or to ai44, but that's the same thing, really
14:05<Chutt>very limited
14:05<Chutt>can't wait til i get to the pvr-350 stuff =)
14:06<vektor>:)
14:06<Chutt>full 32-bit rgba
14:06<vektor>Yeah, I wouldn't mind a PVR-350 if that'll all work.
14:06<vektor>I released tvtime with a menu system, btw.
14:06<vektor>You should try it out.
14:07<Chutt>sure
14:07<Chutt>i'd have to setup the analog card again
14:07<vektor>oh, sorry :(
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14:20<mdz_>another 2 months without a murmur about tvtime debs...is it time for me to package it from scratch and sidestep simon's itp?
14:21<Chutt>yes
14:21<vektor>mdz: Maybe.
14:21<vektor>I'd like you to start with the debian/ directory in tvtime CVS.
14:21<vektor>I have also made things much easier.
14:21<vektor>I have a command called 'tvtime-configure', so the debconf doesn't need to edit any files.
14:21<vektor>It just runs that command.
14:24<mdz_>vektor: christ, why isn't it done yet, then?
14:26<sfr>vektor: can tvtime spawn an external program? this way i could start mythepg easily.
14:27<vektor>mdz: because simon moved and had troubles in school
14:27<vektor>he just moved to montreal and is busy with work until the weekend he says
14:27<vektor>but it's been like this for months now
14:27<vektor>he keeps saying 'next weekend' and stuff.
14:27<vektor>so, sigh.
14:27<vektor>sfr: no, but i can put the feature in easily if you tell me how you want it to work.
14:28<mdz_>vektor: would he be mad if I just did it?
14:28<mdz_>he could of course replace my package with his if he ever gets around to it
14:29<vektor>mdz: well why not start with the debian directory in my CVS
14:29<vektor>that would be best
14:29<vektor>and do it, and i'll check it over, and if it looks good then just do it
14:29<vektor>i think that will be fine
14:29<Chutt>mdz doesn't do debian/ in CVS
14:29<mdz_>heh
14:31<sfr>vektor: that'd be great! in xawtv one can map a command to any key; like this: 'epg = A, mythepg'
14:34<vektor>sfr: And it runs it in the background ?
14:34<vektor>mdz: Why not? It's not in the dist.
14:34* vektor wants the packaging information in our CVS so I can update things if I need to, and the packager can get them and see them, and so others know how to best make packages if they want to, say, start with the debian packaging and make a xandros package or whatever.
14:35<sfr>vektor: background? what do you mean?
14:35<vektor>sfr: Well it's the same as running 'mythepg &' in an xterm, right?
14:36<vektor>Like, you don't want to shut down tvtime to run the epg, right?
14:36<sfr>vektor: aha! no i wouldn't want that. just start the ext. program and continue.
14:36<vektor>ok, easy.
14:37<sfr>vektor: no patch required? ;)
14:37<vektor>sfr: Huh? No, I'm coding it now, it will be in 0.9.9.1.
14:38<vektor>Will only take a minute to code that.
14:38<sfr>Chutt: you followed? it should be always like that :)
14:39<sfr>vektor: what about adding a kitchen sink, so i can watch tv while doing the dishes?
14:39<vektor>ahem.
14:40<Chutt>heh
14:40<sfr>vektor: thanks, btw
14:40<Chutt>i do really easy stuff for some people
14:41<bline>hey vektor
14:41<sfr>Chutt: sure, note the smiley
14:49<vektor>Chutt: You take a lot of abuse :)
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15:07<vektor>sfr: Done, I'm checking it in to CVS now.
15:07<vektor>It's cool, I have a key binding to bring up xterms now.
15:07<vektor>Kinda weird :)
15:08<sfr>vektor: merci, is it fixed to one key?
15:08<mdz_>vektor: the packaging stuff is easily accessible without it being in cvs; I don't think that's an issue
15:10<vektor>mdz: Why not put it in CVS though? What's your sourceforge userid, I'll add you now.
15:10<vektor>sfr: No, you configure the key bindings in a config file.
15:10<mdz_>vektor: I'll send you my stock list of reasons
15:11<sfr>vektor: ok.
15:11<mdz_>vektor: mostly that the packaging ends up being a branch, and must match a specific version of upstream
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15:11<mdz_>vektor: I think my sourceforge uid is mzimmerman
15:11<mdz_>let me verify
15:12<mdz_>vektor: yep
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15:13<vektor>mdz: Ok, you're active.
15:13<mdz_>because some deadbeat stole mdz before me and then never did anything
15:14<mdz_>not that I'm bitter
15:14<jkolb>You could have picked mdz_
15:14<mdz_>I could have gotten an AOL account instead
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15:25<Chutt>the aol account would probably have been more useful
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16:55<heavy>does myth use oss by default?
16:55<Chutt>yes
16:56<heavy>to use alsa do i just change the AudioOutputDevice setting in the db?
16:56<heavy>my alsa works great but i can't seem to get oss working
16:58<heavy>i'm so close to getting myth going... but just can't seem to get this sound
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17:03<Chutt>the alsa oss emulation generally works fine
17:03<Chutt>just use that
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17:05<o_cee>i've got an idea that i think even isaac would like ;)
17:07<o_cee>when entering, for example, channel "1", it doesn't wait until the delay, but checks if ther IS, for example, a channel 11. if there isn't, it switches asap. is that understandable?
17:08<o_cee>just an idea i got, had to get it out :P
17:10<Chutt>someone brought that up before
17:10<Chutt>the current behavior's what i'm used to
17:10<Chutt>but if someone wanted to make it configurable, that'd be cool.
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17:10<o_cee>okay.
17:11<o_cee>but what would you loose? the only thing would be that it switches channel faster, heh
17:11<o_cee>right?
17:11<Chutt>i often hit a bunch of 0's to clear out a channel change in progress
17:11<Chutt>before it starts changing
17:12<o_cee>hm, okay..
17:13<o_cee>wich also reminds me.. is there a reason that there's no "last chan" button?
17:13<mikegrb>there is :-)
17:13<sfr>:)
17:14<o_cee>hmm
17:14<o_cee>not mentioned in keys.txt?
17:16<Chutt>guess not
17:16<Chutt>H
17:16<o_cee>oh, cool :)
17:16<o_cee>thought it was strange
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17:21<sfr>one more idea: what about adding an option to schedule a show not for recording but to simply tune to it's channel when the show starts?
17:22<o_cee>i read that before as well
17:22<o_cee>like a reminder
17:22<sfr>must have missed this
17:22<o_cee>long time ago i think
17:23<sfr>and to complete the shutdown command: a sleep-timer, though i woudn't use it myself.
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17:28<o_cee>another thing that would be cool for programmable remotes is to be able to go directly to a specific module.. like a "MythMusic" button..
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17:29<heavy>i know this may not be the best place to ask, but i'm running out of ideas
17:29<heavy>trying to get oss emulation working
17:29<heavy>alsa works fine
17:29<heavy>oss modules won't load tho
17:29<o_cee>why
17:30<heavy>i wish i knew
17:30<o_cee>what's the error
17:30<heavy>here's the error when i run: insmod snd-pcm-oss
17:30<heavy>insmod snd-pcm-oss
17:30<heavy>Using /lib/modules/2.4.20-gentoo-r6/kernel/sound/acore/oss/snd-pcm-oss.o
17:30<heavy>/lib/modules/2.4.20-gentoo-r6/kernel/sound/acore/oss/snd-pcm-oss.o: unresolved symbol snd_mixer_oss_ioctl_card_Rc9641f58
17:30<sfr>o_cee isn't someone working to extend mythfrontend to be able to receive commands from 'outside' e.g. via a control socket?
17:30<o_cee>heavy: do insmod snd-mixer-oss first
17:30<mdz_>heavy: run modprobe, not insmod
17:30<o_cee>sfr: dunno
17:31<o_cee>can't recall reading about it
17:31<sfr>o_cee: forget the ?, i think i've read it on the -dev list some time ago.
17:31<heavy>i ran o_cee's suggestino before seeing mdz_'s
17:31<heavy>modules are in
17:32<heavy>hmm, xmms doesn't work with oss tho, not a good sign
17:32<o_cee>[23:29]<heavy> i know this may not be the best place to ask, but i'm running out of ideas <-- yeez, you really tried a long time didn't you :)
17:32<heavy>those steps aren't the most intuitive or well documented
17:32<o_cee>what would be the fun of it if everything was in the doc?
17:33<mdz_>heavy: modprobe has been the correct way to load modules for about 5 years
17:33<heavy>fun would be actually using mythtv, not spending time configuring your system for it
17:33<mdz_>and it has a nice man page
17:34<harrih>heavy, did you read the gentoo alsa guide ?
17:34<harrih>it's all there
17:34<mdz_>in fact, the insmod man page has a big note at the top saying "GO USE MODPROBE"
17:34<mdz_>so please don't complain about documentation when you obviously didn't even glance at it
17:35<heavy>i'm just saying i didn't even know i had to insert any modules
17:35<harrih>http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/alsa-guide.xml
17:35<sfr>heavy: how much fun can watching tv be? or do you think Chutt started this if he intended to watch tv. :) the fun is in the making.
17:35<o_cee>harrih: very good guide
17:35<heavy>not complaining i didn't know how to insert them
17:35<o_cee>sfr: haha
17:35<o_cee>:)
17:36<harrih>If anyone is using gdb, what version ?
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17:37<heavy>ok, so my modules are in, but still no sound through oss, this is where I'm stuck
17:37<sfr>heavy: also not with other programs?
17:38<harrih>Heavy, look at the guide, do everything by it, and if it doesn't work then start troubleshooting
17:38<heavy>sfr: correct, no programs
17:38<sfr>heavy: so it's not a myth problem, follow harrih's advice.
17:38<o_cee>heheh
17:38<o_cee>try alsamixer to start with
17:39<o_cee>and aplay
17:41<harrih>well, I dunno what to do with my problem... FF freezes the frontend on many files, it tries to rebuffer endlessly, I have and 2-3 other people have submitted backtraces, but they are useless for some reason.. I'm totally out of ideas :(
17:42<Chutt>because you need to debug _why_ it's trying to rebuffer
17:42<Chutt>a backtrace is totally useless for that type of error.
17:43<harrih>Unfortunately I don't have skills for that, but a friend of mine has the same problem, we'll try to do it together (he does some debugging in his work)
17:43<Chutt>mdz, thanks for that commit.
17:44<o_cee>i'm getting some audio buffering as well.. no clue why.
17:44<o_cee>and very random
17:44<o_cee>mdz: :)
17:44<harrih>I've been trying to figure out what files cause it, because some files work just ok, but some are really bad. Haven't found any (with my skills) any reasons that connect the files.
17:45<sfr>mdz: any other easter eggs?
17:46<o_cee>7 in mythmusic is cool
17:46<sfr>o_cee: don't tell me, don't tell me!! :)
17:46<o_cee>hehhehe
17:46<harrih>chutt, sorry to bug you, is there any (easy) way to remove a bookmark from a file, what table holds them in the database ?
17:47<harrih>and I mean any other than by using mythfrontend
17:47<Chutt>just hit space again during playback.
17:47<Chutt>you can remove it from the table (recordedmarkup), but why?
17:47<harrih>I have a file that enters the rebuffering loop when I start it (it is bookmarked)
17:47<Chutt>well, that's a good reason to keep the bookmark, then
17:47<harrih>so space will not clear the bookmark
17:48<Chutt>since it will help you debug the problem.
17:48<harrih>well true I guess :)
17:48<harrih>I submitted the backtrace on that file, but as you said there is no info about the actual problem
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17:48<o_cee>is it possible to automatically bookmark upon exiting the file? so that it just starts where you left? not sure i've seen that, but i might have missed it.. not at the tv now
17:49<Chutt>o_cee, that's an option
17:49<Chutt>it's off by default
17:49<o_cee>nice. will enable it tomorrow :)
17:50<harrih>just to make sure this has nothing to do with it, I have looked at the recordedmarkup table, and it has over 200000 records, this is normal right ? I assume all the commercial breaks and bookmarks etc are here ?
17:50<o_cee>btw, what's that "extra large audio buffer" or something like that? at the same place as the "experimental av sync".. what does that do?
17:50<Chutt>harrih, yup, that's normal
17:50<harrih>k thanks
17:50<Chutt>o_cee, stuff
17:50<o_cee>hehehe, ok.. will enable it and see if the occational audio rebuffering dissapears
17:51<o_cee>maybe running the back/frontend with nice -19 would help also? or maybe -10? dunno what would be appropriate
17:54<harrih>k thanks for your time chutt. time to take the dog to the park
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17:54<o_cee>mythtranscode seems to have problems with this file.. when recorded, the backend died, and then it continued recording when restarted..
17:54<o_cee>seems to be usin up all CPU
17:54<o_cee>2003-09-03 23:29:54 Fast-Forwarding from 0 to 5127
17:54<o_cee>25 minutes ago..
17:55<o_cee>ah i'll just throw that file to /dev/null instead
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17:59<o_cee>later.. going to bed now.. bye bye
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18:37<phar0e>hi
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19:23<tmk>greetings
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19:34<knight->hmmm, what do you think it would take to let multiple mythfrontend's to feed off the same livetv feed?
19:34<knight->or any live input for that matter
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19:57<tmk>sup chutt... have a chance to work on the OSD yet?
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20:30<knight->tmk, what of the OSD was he working on?
20:32<tmk>just checking status
20:38<Chutt>tmk, almost done
20:38<Chutt>just need to figure out how best to dither it down to 16 colors
20:38<tmk>cool
20:38<tmk>youdaman
20:38<tmk>you find your bug then? :)
20:39<Chutt>naw
20:39<Chutt>had some free time
20:39<tmk>:)
20:39<mikegrb>Chutt: any more thought on the xbox includes?
20:39<mikegrb>er thoughts
20:39<Chutt>i don't think those should be in the mythtv source
20:39<mikegrb>Okay
20:39<Chutt>it looked to me like it belonged in a kernel module
20:40<mikegrb>I'll talk to the xbox linux guys see if they can't replace it in the kernel source
20:40<mikegrb>the problem was they are modified from normal
20:40<mikegrb>and for size reasons by default there isn't a kernel source or kernel headers installation
20:40<Chutt>right
20:40<Chutt>just needs to have a compiled module, though
20:41<Chutt>the stuff in mythtv should just be an ioctl or two to talk to all that
20:41<mikegrb>okay so If I pull out the few bits I need fore sure and put them in my xbox.h
20:41<mikegrb>hmm
20:41<mikegrb>okay, I'll do some more experimenting
20:42<mikegrb>I also need to move were the settings are loaded so when they are changed in setup they take effect, rather then not until restart
20:42<mikegrb>s/were/where/
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20:42<phar0e>Hello , how can I tell what version of Freetype I have?
20:42<mikegrb>move them to the bits in libmyth rather then libmythtv with a function to reload the settings
20:43<knight->hmmm, what do you think it would take to let multiple mythfrontend's to feed off the same livetv feed, or any live input for that matter
20:43<mikegrb>freetype-config --version
20:44<phar0e>I tried that
20:44<phar0e>but it doesn't seem right.. saying I have 9.1.3
20:44<phar0e>isn't there only freetype 1 & 2?
20:45<mikegrb>that's what mine says... I also have a /usr/share/doc/freetype-2.1.2/ dir
20:45<mikegrb>you might see what you have that starts with freetype
20:46<mikegrb>or a locate freetype | less
20:46<phar0e>okay looks like everything is fine there, I think I am going to install that visor theme
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20:57<knight->so currently, mythfrontend has to sync with mythbackend for frame data right? do you think it would be hard to have another mythfrontend sync the same frame data?
20:59<knight->I was thinking about adding a broadcast feature to mythbackend to compensate for this.
21:00<knight->So one backend can broadcast to more than one frontend (think of a college kid broadcasting a movie to 15 dorm mates, or a movie played on 20 airplane seat screens, etc)
21:03<knight->The main purpose though, would be to allow many screens in a house to view the same live recording, and to minimize capture card use for the same sources. No need to duplicate a Live TV of channel 2, etc.
21:05<tmk>knight-: check out videolan if you want to do that
21:06<tmk>i may bbl
21:06<tmk>but for now
21:06<tmk>i'm outie
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21:07<knight->heh. I know of videolan.
21:07<knight->But I think mythtv should support that.
21:07<knight->I have 4 tvs in my house, and they're all very heavily used :)
21:08<knight->Would save me considerable capture card and cpu usage
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21:31<knight->this would also go well for making the Security Camera stuff
21:31<knight->so multiple frontends can see the cameras at once
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21:53<echo>where do you set the mythtv theme?
21:55<phar0e>under settings / appearance
21:55<kja>echo "mythfrontend/setup/apperance" > /dev/null
21:56<phar0e>anyone here use visor?
21:58<kja>tried it a while back..why?
21:58<phar0e>I can't figure out why I can't get the transparency the theme requires, and my fonts don't look as smooth as I've seen in screenshots
21:58<phar0e>those two problems I am having
22:00<echo>Ah
22:01<echo>I was just running myuthtv, not mythtvfrontend
22:01<echo>my bad.
22:03<kja>transparency don't work here either, fonts ok tho
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22:03<phar0e>http://www.coincapital.com/visor/visor3.png , would have been nice to get it looking like that
22:04<phar0e>but there wasn't a README or anything included with tips on how to get it working correctly.. oh well
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22:07<kja>strange...
22:08<kja>think i had it looking like that a while back
22:09<phar0e>maybe I need some sort of special setting in my XFree86 config.. not sure
22:15<mikegrb>yes
22:15<mikegrb>er
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22:22<phar0e>mikegrb, do you know which it is?
22:22<bobnvic>I recompiled with native lirc support, but I get mythtv: could not connect to socket and connection refused errors when starting mythfrontend. /dev/lircd has permissions srw-rw-rw- with owner root. irxevent has no trouble started as user (not root). I followed the instructions in the lirc.org faq to chmod 666 /dev/lircd, but it made no difference (I'm pretty sure it was already set to 666). Does anyone have any suggestions that I can try?
22:22<mikegrb>phar0e: no I'm sorry, that was meant for another window
22:23<phar0e>oh, you got my hopes up :)
22:23<phar0e>Hell, I'll make a post to the mailinglist, wish me luck
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22:28<mikegrb>good luck phar0e
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22:35<bobnvic>is anyone using native lirc support?
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23:17<vektor>Chutt: How big to xmltv files get?
---Logclosed Thu Sep 04 00:00:17 2003