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#mythtv IRC Logs for 2004-02-11

---Logopened Wed Feb 11 00:00:47 2004
00:04Captain_Murdo| anyone in here care to comment on the "Even If Empty" duplicate check method type?
00:04Captain_Murdo| debating whether to remove it.
00:06--- User: *** linagee_ is now known as linagee
00:07rkulagow_ c_m: here's what bruce wrote up for the user guide:
00:07rkulagow_ Even if Empty
00:07rkulagow_
00:07rkulagow_ The scheduler will consider two showings to be duplicates if both
00:07rkulagow_ subtitles match and both descriptions are blank or if both
00:07rkulagow_ descriptions match and both subtitles are blank. This may work for
00:07rkulagow_ some titles, however, it is subject to the same problems as both the
00:07rkulagow_ "Subtitle" and "Description" methods. In most cases it may be safer to
00:07rkulagow_ choose the "Subtitle" or "Description" methods to avoid missing
00:07rkulagow_ episodes that you would have wanted to record.
00:07rkulagow_ i'm just wondering when it might be useful (if ever)
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00:09Captain_Murdo| rkulagow_: I've seen cases where it's useful but they are rare. I don't want to introduce any confusion so I'm thinking it's better to remove the option.
00:10Captain_Murdo| it never was in a release version, only CVS.
00:10rkulagow_ but bruce wrote so pretty!
00:10Captain_Murdo| and for less than a week if I remove it. :) yeah, but he's not too keen on it and I can see his viewpoint. I can agree that I'd rather delete a duplicate than risk missing for instance a CSI. :)
00:11rkulagow_ huh. i had no idea that jarod had a paypal link and had bought a pvr-350 with the proceeds. maybe i'll subliminal a paypal link into the howto :)
00:12rkulagow_ good for him though; it's helped a lot of folks.
00:12Captain_Murdo| if you read the left-most character on each line it's http://www.paypal.com/pay_rkugalow.asp
00:12rkulagow_ :)
00:12Captain_Murdo| you have M179 cards?
00:13rkulagow_ 3 of them; loaning one to a buddy who's having me build him a myth box in exchange for a snow thrower. chicago, you know?
00:13Captain_Murdo| flown through there many times in the snow. :)
00:13rkulagow_ don't your arms ice up?
00:14Captain_Murdo| the guy I've been emailing at AVerMedia is trying to get me one of their new M150 and M172 cards.
00:14Captain_Murdo| long johns.
00:15rkulagow_ cool. i could see them eating the cost of a few cards and some docs to get people to buy them. after the whole ebay $49 card thing i'm sure they're aware of mythtv.
00:15Captain_Murdo| yeah, I even had one of their guys email me asking how to get the M179 working with ivtv.
00:16Captain_Murdo| was in the embedded Linux group or something.
00:17rkulagow_ right, i think i remember you mentioning that. also, get them to stop selling their "AverMedia 350" card. brilliant marketing strategy...
00:17Captain_Murdo| mythcommflag doing 230fps in blank frame detection mode with --hogcpu.
00:17Captain_Murdo| yeah, I saw those when I picked up my M179-s on newegg I think.
00:18rkulagow_ c_m: sweet. what proc? i get 85fps running blank+scene on a celeron 2.4 --hogcpu
00:19Captain_Murdo| Athlon 1.3Ghz. I added an fps display on it recently that computes/displays fps every 50 frames.
00:19Captain_Murdo| going to test to see how accurate that new scene change patch is but making sure it didn't break blank frame first.
00:20rkulagow_ c_m: i noticed that. is blank+scene that much slower? i'd figure that a Celeron 2.4Ghz is a bunch faster than a A 1.3Ghz.
00:21Captain_Murdo| I'll test blank-scene after this. want to compare the methods to see if his method is any better. if it is then I might chunk the old scene-change sometime.
00:23Captain_Murdo| scene by itself is only doing 171
00:25--- <<-- NiteOwl [~jsmith@146-115-228-126.c3-0.frm-ubr1.sbo-frm.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit ("Client Exiting")
00:31thor__ RE: [mythtv-users] Spilt Myth mailing list? --> And one mailing lists for posts for this thread.
00:31thor__ that's hilarious
00:33Captain_Murdo| didn't you hear, we're converting the #mythtv channel to a list as well.
00:33Captain_Murdo| sorry, forum.
00:33Captain_Murdo| not as funny if I mess it up.
00:34thor__ myth-dev, myth-user, myth-pointlessdebatesaboutotherlistsandforums
00:34rkulagow_ myth-offtopic, myth-ivtv, myth-xmltv, myth-hardware, myth-lirc
00:34rkulagow_ and my favorite, myth-brokendistribution
00:35thor__ myth-grits, myth-natalieportman, myth-goatse
00:35rkulagow_ with the last hosted at .cx
00:36rkulagow_ myth-bigmacindex, myth-ppp
00:37thor__ myth-economicstutorials ... now _there's_ an idea for a paypal link
00:39rkulagow_ ok, thor. break down the economics of mythtv, and how the penetration rate of DVRs is either 1) going to drive all the networks out of business or 2) cause the end of the world.
00:39rkulagow_ in 50 words (or less). begin.
00:39thor__ ads in shows
00:40thor__ - the end
00:40rkulagow_ what, no british-style telly tax?
00:40thor__ heh, that would go over well
00:41rkulagow_ yes, with detector vans driving up and down the streets, triangulating.
00:41* Captain_Murd tests and found blank-frame+scene detection on test show better than blank-frame alone.
00:42Chutt i think the best new list would be myth-findisaacajob
00:42rkulagow_ hey, i thought it was only going to take all of 12 minutes!
00:42thor__ and win a free copy of MythTV
00:42Captain_Murdo| first person to find Chutt a job can start their own forum.
00:42rkulagow_ ha
00:42rkulagow_ (hahahahah)
00:43rkulagow_ chutt: have you thought about consulting, or are you looking for full-time? i do consulting jobs every few months when we need some extra $.
00:43* Captain_Murd realizes that was just scene-change and not blank+scene.
00:44Chutt full-time
00:44Chutt would prefer, at least
00:45Chutt i haven't started looking at all yet, though
00:45hadees try india thats where they are all goning
00:45thor__ I just knew the 12 minutes clock hadn't started ticking
00:45thor__ minute
00:48thor__ I think I liked it better when everyone hated the Japanes
00:48thor__ e
00:48Chutt heh, you removed that extra .arg()
00:48Chutt i forgot about that
00:48Captain_Murdo| rkulagow_: appears I'm getting 171 still w/ blank+scene. this is on a 480x480 mpeg2 @ ~4000Kbit/sec.
00:49thor__ quite annoying
00:49thor__ what was that for ?
00:49rkulagow_ c_m: wonder why i'm only getting 85. weird.
00:50rkulagow_ is everything local, or are you using NFS or anything like that?
00:50Captain_Murdo| nfs mounted so not going through a backend. 100Mbit to the server.
00:52Captain_Murdo| 2.5Mbytes/sec according to size of file divided by # of seconds to process.
00:53Chutt thor, what's your thoughts on that 'mythmusic reload database tags' patch?
00:53thor__ checking ...
00:54Captain_Murdo| rkulagow_: this is with --hogcpu also so no nice and no sleeping.
00:55thor__ holy friggin options
00:55rkulagow_ c_m: thanks for the data point. i guess it's only slow if it's not fast enough, and right now it is. :)
00:55thor__ filesystem that does not support modification times. <-- do such things exist ?
00:55Chutt thor, i don't like how it's a combo box
00:56Chutt those 4 options just don't seem like they're related, to me
00:56thor__ well, not exclusive
00:56thor__ all kind of a moot point soon :-)
00:56Chutt heh
00:56Chutt aye
00:56thor__ rewriting the music sweeper as we speak
00:57thor__ to use mythdigests
00:57thor__ but I rely on modification times
00:57Chutt if mod time is newer than in db, calc md5, compare?
00:58thor__ more or less
00:58Chutt good enough for me
00:59thor__ are there really filesystems that don't give mod times (last access times I can understand, but no timestamps ?)
00:59Chutt probably, but why support em?
00:59Chutt just like i ignore people that complain when they insist on using a fat32 partition to try to record video files to
01:00thor__ heh, my mouse pointer doesn't work and music won't read my original demo files on my C-64 file system
01:01rkulagow_ poke 53280, 20
01:02rkulagow_ poke 53281, 50
01:02thor__ peek 53280
01:02thor__ wow, it's 20 !
01:04rkulagow_ sorry, forgot that 53280 and 81 only went to 15.
01:04rkulagow_ i think it would modulo if you went too high.
01:05rkulagow_ ach, it's liking having wordstar programmed into your fingers. some things are hard to get rid of.
01:05Chutt who wants to write a QTime replacement for the timer functions?
01:05Chutt =)
01:06rkulagow_ i think i need something better than this:
01:06rkulagow_ "A local frontend is one that runs on the same machine as a backend - a remote frontend is one that isn't."
01:06thor__ QTime start(), .... , elapsed() ?
01:06Chutt yeah
01:06Chutt apparently it has some issues
01:07thor__ really ?
01:07thor__ aside from daylight savings ?
01:07Chutt yeah
01:07Chutt someone posted some debugging on the -users list last week
01:07Chutt it sometimes thinks things are way off
01:07thor__ hmmm
01:08Chutt could be an old qt version, but i haven't seen any major changes from a quick perusal of 3.1, 3.2, and 3.3
01:21Captain_Murdo| could it be screwed up by ntp? result is undefined if system clock changes between start and elapsed.
01:21Chutt hmm
01:22Chutt quite possibly
01:22Chutt if it goes negative, that'd fuck things up
01:22thor__ if the guys got ntp running on wild settings especially
01:22thor__ -g or whatever that is
01:22Chutt ah well
01:22Chutt he did say he was going to replace it
01:22Chutt so i'll let him
01:23thor__ delegation
01:27Chutt just like i'm hoping to get andrew mahone to finish that mmx optimization i started =)
01:29rkulagow_ just like i got captain_murdoch to finish that commercial skipping i started :)
01:29thor__ just like ... hmmm ... wait a second
01:29thor__ oh crap, I'm a minion
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01:30Chutt hah
01:30Captain_Murdo| that alternate scene change patch isn't doing so hot right now. didn't find anything first time I ran it, inserting debug statements to see what's going on now.
01:31thor__ get kulagow to fix it
01:31rkulagow_ thor: thanks. :)
01:31vuud Can someone tell me how Mythtv determines duplicates? I noticed on some programs it will and on some it does not (same program descriptions also).
01:32rkulagow_ ok, uh, got to go.. uh, baby is awake. bbl.
01:32Captain_Murdo| thor, :)
01:32* thor__ is trying to wake up his daughter
01:32Captain_Murdo| vuud: default is same exact subtitle & description. if you think it's messing up, look at the DB entries for both programs in question.
01:33Captain_Murdo| you can change dup detection method though
01:33Captain_Murdo| read on the mailing lists for more info on the diferent methods.
01:33vuud Captain_Murdoch, okay - thanks
01:35rkulagow_ c_m: but isn't the new dup stuff only in CVS? vuud: what version of mythtv are you running?
01:36Chutt doesn't everyone run cvs? =)
01:39Chutt hrmph
01:39Chutt the msn web crawler has been pounding mythtv.org
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01:40thor__ that sweet little butterfly ?
01:40rkulagow_ mydoom.d ?
01:40Chutt no, their search engine crawler
01:40thor__ robots.txt --> go away msn
01:40Chutt 160MB in 27k hits to the site this month
01:41Chutt #1 ip visitor to the site
01:41rkulagow_ chutt: right, i know. just figured they're getting back at you since "ultimatetv" was the sux0r.
01:41Chutt heh
01:41thor__ it's their "we're better than google" algorithms gone haywire probably
01:41Captain_Murdo| rkulagow_: yeah, only in cvs.
01:41Chutt heh
01:42Captain_Murdo| it's an attempted DOS attack on competition to MCE.
01:42Chutt too bad that google's directed 34k referrals to the site, and msn's done 156
01:42rkulagow_ chutt: docs sync please.
01:42Chutt sure thing
01:42thor__ that's truly bizarre
01:43Chutt rkulagow, done
01:45* Captain_Murd wonders how long Ameritrade will keep his account with a negative balance before they liquidate his only stock.
01:45rkulagow_ chutt: thanks.
01:46thor__ heh, I have an eTrade account I opened just so I could buy some eToys when they were at 3 cents because I wanted copies of the certificates
01:46rkulagow_ did i miss an update to keys.txt on the "recording views" option? it's handy, but there doesn't seem to be a way to move a group (like 10 episodes of "The Nanny") out of default into a different one?
01:47Chutt yeah, captain_murdoch went all changing keybindings on me without discussing it first :p
01:47rkulagow_ naughty, naughty.
01:47thor__ see configurable key binding changes and mythmusic
01:47vuud rkulagow_, sorry was off rebooting my myth box... regarding the duplicate issue, I am running 0.14 of mythtv
01:47Chutt thor, bah, those made sense =)
01:48Chutt everything works perfectly on my grey hauppague remote
01:48thor__ heh
01:48vuud How far out does it mark duplicates (looking into the future)?
01:48Chutt vuud, as far as it has data
01:48rkulagow_ depends on how much guide data you have.
01:49vuud vuud, so tomorrows duplicates should be marked then... dang
01:49* Captain_Murd thought M and I did different things in different places so why not keep them separate in playbackbox. :)
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01:49vuud Chutt, I hate you... Actually I just hate my grey hauppauge remote
01:49Chutt really?
01:49Chutt mine works well enough
01:50thor__ mine works fine now .... but I spent a week with no left or right key
01:50vuud Chutt, yeah. I spent a day trying to get it working - can't get the remote to be reieved by the machine
01:50Captain_Murdo| actually I didn't remember M working on playbackbox until recently. I was thinking 'M-enu'.
01:50* Captain_Murd chastises himself.
01:51vuud Chutt, anyway - my OSD sucks so bad I have a monitor still attached to the box... so I have not felt the pain of it yet
01:51Chutt yeah, but the other thing was a menu too :p
01:51Chutt i haven't decided how best to make things work yet
01:51Captain_Murdo| really 2 different things. M is global menu type stuff, I is program specific.
01:51Chutt wrt the i/m stuff on that screen
01:51Chutt yeah, i dunno
01:51o_cee Chutt: sorry bout those mails, my smtp server clearly said they didn't get send :)
01:52Chutt that's allright
01:52Chutt i'll get em applied tomorrow
01:52o_cee great
01:54* Captain_Murd wonders how people think he's sending out the mydoom virus when he doesn't have a windows box in the house.
01:56o_cee Captain_Murdoch: change recording group popup looks odd here, first inch or so gets darkened, the rest not
01:56o_cee but i have to run off to class. ttyl
01:56Captain_Murdo| same here sometimes.
01:57Captain_Murdo| thought that was my crappy video card.
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02:03vuud Hey is there a way to record into myth from a different video source? Not tv... for example, the S-VHS input from my camcorder?
02:03vuud I can find it as an Input
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02:20dopez to melt isnt that bad
02:22dopez go be in drunk is better tho..
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02:37rkulagow_ c_m: still here?
02:38Captain_Murdo| yeah
02:38rkulagow_ another cutlist thing. ready?
02:38Captain_Murdo| sure
02:40Chutt can i call someone 'utterly moronic' on the -users list?
02:40Captain_Murdo| as long as you put it in quotes.
02:41Chutt quotes won't make sense
02:42Chutt the webmin response to mine
02:42Captain_Murdo| I'd do it, but then I've been told by quite a few people that I should keep my mouth shut sometimes, like the time I told my boss she must be smoking better dope than her boss if she thought we were going to finish a project on time.
02:43Captain_Murdo| don't have that yet here.
02:43Chutt i don't understand, really
02:43rkulagow_ ok, go to edit mode, pull in the skip list. go to 1 minute into the program, set a "delete before this frame" mark. tweak the rest of the cutlist, trimming as required. put the marker back to the very very beginning of the program. exit edit mode. program begins to play, doesn't skip forward automatically. hit "z". frontend skips forward 9 minutes to first commercial. hit q (twice). first jumps back the one or two seconds (expe
02:43Chutt X is a couple MB
02:43Chutt recorded tv shows are several GB
02:44Chutt how does it make sense to not install the xlibs and export the display to another machine?
02:44Captain_Murdo| kinda the same thing with the people complaining about archiving messages locally when they record video.
02:44rkulagow_ c_m: make sense?
02:44Captain_Murdo| thinking it through.
02:45Captain_Murdo| missed something at the end of that?
02:45rkulagow_ the second jumps back the end of the one minute marker that was set at the beginning.
02:46Captain_Murdo| so it's not skipping automatically if you're inside a cut section at the beginning of the video?
02:46rkulagow_ correct
02:47Captain_Murdo| may be a sideeffect of fixing the other problem.
02:47Chutt heh
02:48Captain_Murdo| I think I might know what that is.
02:49rkulagow_ chutt: instead of "utterly moronic", you could just say "hey, it's open source. do it if you want, but don't expect me to include it in the release.". ben bucksch had a text mode config program, don't know if he was keeping it up to date though.
02:49Chutt that's true
02:49Chutt i didn't say 'utterly moronic', though
02:50Chutt i asked him to explain how saving a few megs installing the x libs makes sense in light of the fact that he's recording hugeass videos
02:52rkulagow_ chutt: well, some people are just like that, i guess. i can see the utility though; especially if you're a web-centric type of person how it might be easier to do things with a browser. i know mythweb makes _some_ things easier. anyway, it's his itch, let him scratch it if he wants.
02:52Chutt i'm not going to stop him, i'm just saying it doesn't make any sense whatsoever
02:56Captain_Murdo| rkulagow_: can you goto this url and back out the 2nd change in setDeleteIter(). I wonder if the first change at the top is what fixed it and the 2nd change at the bottom actually broke this. cvs url is http://cvs.mythtv.org/cgi-bin/viewcvs.cgi/mythtv/libs/libmythtv/NuppelVideoPlayer.cpp?r1=1.324&r2=1.325&diff_format=l
02:56rkulagow_ c_m: ok, but i've got to hit the sack. i'll compile tonight and test in the morning.
02:57Captain_Murdo| ok. I might test it myself if I get a chance in a few.
02:58Chutt probably the else
02:58rkulagow_ c_m: based on what chutt just said, what now?
02:59Chutt 'course, i know nothing about that code
02:59Chutt so, you don't have to take _my_ word for it =)
02:59Chutt o/~ it's in a book, reading rainbo-o-o-o-w o/~
02:59rkulagow_ chutt, are you drunk _again_?
02:59rkulagow_ :)
02:59Chutt heh
03:00Chutt naw, bored
03:00Chutt waiting for a file to transfer from work's colo to the office cluster
03:00rkulagow_ go watch some TV then.
03:00Chutt tv?
03:00Chutt what's that?
03:00Chutt i'm reading a book, actually
03:00Captain_Murdo| well, it actually should be always backing up 1 deleteiter after the loop if it can. then if that's a 0 it should go forward. I think that code may have been correct to begin and the real problem was in StartPlaying()
03:00rkulagow_ you know, the thing connected to your home media convergence software.
03:00Chutt oh, i'm supposed to _use_ mythtv?
03:01Captain_Murdo| purpose of using it is to find more bugs and features to add.
03:01Chutt ah
03:01Captain_Murdo| add features, remove bugs that is.. :)
03:01Chutt i don't mind adding bugs
03:01Captain_Murdo| those are easy
03:01rkulagow_ c_m: sorry, have to go to bed. haven't made any changes yet. i'll catch up to you in the morning... thanks.
03:02Captain_Murdo| rkulagow_: I'll test in a minute or two. I think I'm about to yank this alternate scene stuff back out of my tree. it isn't working worth beans for me. too much to tune I think.
03:03rkulagow_ ick. i think i'm going to hate docbook. doesn't look like linuxdoc will do graphics, so i have to move to a bigger hammer for the user guide.
03:03Chutt rkulagow, lemme know if you need/want help with that
03:03rkulagow_ maybe i'll just use openoffice.
03:04rkulagow_ chutt: i had someone offer, so i said, "sure, get screenshots". haven't heard back...
03:04Captain_Murdo| when I put up links to docs on websites at work I put up an openoffice file (with the size listed) then an alternate link to a word doc (with the size). :)
03:04Chutt heh
03:04Captain_Murdo| 34k vs 8M
03:04Captain_Murdo| etc.
03:05Chutt heh
03:05Captain_Murdo| people used to complain about the slow 10Mbit network at the office and I'd tell them, "think about that 2Meg word file you keep saving. That takes 2 seconds at max theoretical speed to save.
03:06Chutt i shoulda just compressed this damn .wav file
03:07Captain_Murdo| I should setup some sample videos from here and tell Liam that when he can get his alternate scene change stuff working on those as well as his I'll commit it. :)
03:14Chutt 40 minutes left, then i can start analyzing stuff
03:14Chutt yay for working all night long
03:19pigeon hmm, in the profile group, how does the "software encoders" related to the "transcoders"?
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03:19pigeon i'm getting confused...
03:20Chutt means it's the profile that'd be used for any software encoded video
03:20pigeon hmm
03:20pigeon the "transcoders" profile is used for when you transcode with "x" or automatic transcode?
03:21Chutt err
03:21Chutt no
03:21Chutt i thought you were meaning something else
03:21Chutt the stuff in the transcoders profile group is what's used for transcoding, always.
03:22pigeon hmm
03:22pigeon the funny thing is in the profile setting there's the check box for "automaitcally transcode after recording"
03:25pigeon and then it has "RTjpeg/MPEG4" and "MPEG2"
03:26Chutt and?
03:26pigeon but then which one will be used? and when?
03:26Chutt err
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03:27Chutt the rtjpeg/mpeg4 profile will be used when you're transcoding from rtjpeg or mpeg4
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03:27Chutt and the mpeg2 profile will be used when you're transcoding from mpeg2
03:27pigeon cos in the software encoder profiles, you only get MPEG4 and RTjpeg
03:27pigeon hmm
03:27Chutt because those are the only things you can encode to in software?
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03:36pigeon hmm, so, in theory, my Transcoders->MPEG2 should never be used?
03:37pigeon as I'm not using a card that does hardware mpeg2 like those pvr
03:37Chutt right
03:38pigeon ok, i think i get a little bit more now :)
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03:40pigeon thanks Chutt
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06:37o_cee you guys still awake?
06:48dja some of us just got up :-)
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07:04o_cee heh :) 1am here now
07:04o_cee done reading scrollback now ;)
07:13dja ditto -- it only took ~25 minutes...(I'm a slow reader :-)
07:14o_cee :)
07:14o_cee i'll actually get my 350 going now and see how well it works.. haven't tried it in a while
07:14o_cee or what do you think?
07:14o_cee the alternative is to make coffee.. decisions decisions..
07:14dja personally I'd make coffee...:-)
07:15o_cee or maybe make a bootsplash with gant
07:15dja that'd be cool :-)
07:15o_cee i think i've got one half-made here somewhere
07:15dja I hope c_m didn't remove the duplicate check option he mentioned earlier this morning....I use it
07:16o_cee i think he will
07:16dja ack...I wonder why...it's quite usefull for me...
07:19dja I'm assuming bjm is c_m (just read bjm's comment to my question about the one of the delete buttons :-)
07:19dja oops, nm -- I see that he's not.
07:19o_cee bjm is not c_m, Captain_Murdoch is Chris Pinkham
07:20o_cee :)
07:20o_cee talking to himself in that case, hehhe
07:20dja gotcha...do you know what stupid thing I've done? Bruce used my posting as an example as to why the option should be removed..
07:20o_cee haha
07:20dja :)
07:22o_cee trekotor.se/mythtv/bootsplash.jpg does that look hideous? did that one now.. took like 2 minutes so :)
07:22dja it's much better than my current one (I'm using FC1 :)
07:23o_cee ah well, don't have time for it at the moment.. will finnish it up eventuelly
07:23o_cee just remembered i never see it
07:23o_cee :)
07:23dja :)
08:16o_cee took about 5 seconds before ivtv hung in the epg :) awh well
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08:19Slaytanic Some known issue?
08:21o_cee known issue.. dma/irq whatever
08:21o_cee no-one have been able to figure it out yet :/
08:21Slaytanic So IVTV hangs when the EPG is displayed?
08:22o_cee when using the 350 tvout, yeah
08:22o_cee (but it only seems to happen on faster machines)
08:22Slaytanic Weird...
08:22o_cee some race condition
08:23Slaytanic I'm getting a long VGA cable tomorrow (gonna hook it up to my projector), I was planning to use the PVR 350 output for my TV after I've set the proj up... Hope I won't experience that problem you just mentioned...
08:28o_cee what cpu have you got?
08:28mikegrb a metal one
08:28o_cee huh?
08:29o_cee :)
08:29mikegrb ;)
08:29o_cee thougt it was Slaytanic who wrote it, hehe
08:29mikegrb oh heh
08:34Slaytanic Celeron 2.0 Ghz
08:34o_cee then you'll probably be in trouble
08:34Slaytanic Damn
08:34Slaytanic So it's a problem with the ivtv module?
08:36o_cee yes
08:37Slaytanic Too bad...
08:37o_cee yepp
08:38o_cee follow ivtv-devel mailinglist for progress..
08:38Slaytanic Will do...
08:38josephk fast machines?...I thought it was on slow machines...lol
08:39o_cee josephk: nope, other way around.. epia users don't see the problem
08:39o_cee (like Chutt) :)
08:39josephk well I saw the problem on a bx2
08:39josephk 500/100
08:39o_cee :/
08:40josephk not on an apollo pro 133 800/133
08:40o_cee it's just a theory
08:40josephk yeah I know...I had the opposite
08:40josephk heheh
08:40o_cee Chutt: you sneeked in a commit without writing about it! i saw it! muhahahha :)
08:40o_cee thanks btw ;)
08:41josephk actually I thought tmk told me it was slower machines that don't have a problem, but it may be more related to the amount of dma traffic it can handle
08:41josephk don't = do
08:46o_cee stupid cvs, can't merge
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09:46o_cee Chutt: the changes to setup took care of the menu, but not the rest :/ still in english
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10:20dja o_cee: just replied to your -dev posting -- I think you need some type of visual indicator that there are more options available...
10:24pahli_bar i agree with that.
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10:24pahli_bar i'm not really sure why we really need wrapping in the menus. the number of menuitems is not very large
10:31o_cee it didn't feel right at all imo
10:32o_cee maybe it would work better if the curpos is always in the middle like he also suggested.. dunno
10:32o_cee problem is that the indication of more items needs to be both top and bottom now..
10:32o_cee laundry time
10:35dja I like the wrapping, but I'm not a good judge of good/bad UI's. :-)
10:36pahli_bar it's a mere matter of taste. but wrapping menus can be confusing, unless you have uniformity everywhere in myth with respect to that
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10:56racer pahli, how are things going with mythmusic?
10:58pahli_bar racer: busy with real life. no progress :(
11:00racer :) yeah real life goes on!
11:02Slaytanic pahli_bar: Is setting the default repeat mode in preferences a planned feature?
11:02racer But isn't it so when MFD comes into action that mythmusic will change anyway?
11:02thor__ yup
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11:03pahli_bar Slaytanic: i'm just working (hehe) on a the music selection screen.
11:03pahli_bar s/a//
11:04Slaytanic Cool! Has anyone suggested a choice or button on the selection menu to clear the selection? (If it doesn't exist already, I haven't seen it anyway.) It's kinda annoying to have to uncheck the last played album/song every time one wants to play some music...
11:05thor__ Hit enter/yes/pause on All Music twice
11:05thor__ enter/space/return
11:05Slaytanic Ah, of course. A work-around. :)
11:14--- User: *** solarce[h] is now known as KowsWithGuns
11:16* pahli_bar is very happy after increasing his font size to 16
11:16Slaytanic Ah, the simple things is life... :)
11:17pahli_bar much easier to code with console font BIG
11:18thor__ fixed width font is also highly reccomended :-)
11:18pahli_bar heh. perfect recipe for getting glasses soon
11:18pahli_bar i use bitstream mono in an xterm at size 16 and run emacs in it. looks beautiful
11:19thor__ ewww, emacs
11:19pahli_bar thor__: notepad? :)
11:19thor__ khexedit
11:19thor__ skip the source
11:19pahli_bar lol
11:19pahli_bar i don't i can survive without emacs
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11:20pahli_bar never found a better editor which does auto-indenting
11:20thor__ joe
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11:20thor__ :-)
11:21thor__ Ctrl-K is your friend
11:21kuhndog is anyone here an admin for mythtv.org?
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11:22kvandivo why do you ask?
11:22kuhndog i registered mythtv.info
11:23kuhndog i would like to borrow some content/images
11:23kuhndog i hope to make a nice site to pull together all the howtos and tweaks
11:24o_cee riiiight, wouldn't it be better to contribute to the documentation instead:) hehe
11:25kuhndog no one reads docs.. you know that
11:26kuhndog just trying to create a nice community site..
11:26o_cee uhm, right.
11:26pahli_bar kuhndog: wiki based?
11:26kuhndog lots of down and dirty howtos spread out all over the place
11:26o_cee kuhndog: you just said noone reads those? hmm
11:27kuhndog just kidding
11:27kuhndog no i help develop/admin the CMS e107.org
11:27kuhndog it will be run using it
11:30thor__ kuhndog, you probably want to talk to Chutt when he shows up
11:30kuhndog thx.. all i really want todo is borrow the logo
11:31pahli_bar right click. download?
11:31kuhndog not going to use it without permission
11:31thor__ don't think anyone is going to enfore copyright on the logo, but you might want to ask him what he thinks of a .info
11:31thor__ enforce
11:32pahli_bar heh. i don't think Chutt is going to chase you for using the logo
11:32kvandivo regardless, it is noble that kuhndog at least wants to ask..
11:32kuhndog i'll ask all the authors of anything i post for permission
11:32kuhndog i'm not that type of person
11:32thor__ heck, Michigan is practically Canada
11:32pahli_bar the logo can do with some improvements.
11:33kuhndog using his logo might make it seem offical.. and if they want no part in it.. then i surely wont use it
11:35pahli_bar there was some recent discussions in the user ML regarding a separate forum and stuff like that. you might want to check it out
11:35kuhndog thats what sparked the idea
11:35kuhndog that and all the really nice howtos posted on user webspace.. a central location would be nice
11:35thor__ just don't include the phrases "Chutt, what do you think" and "like a forum or wiki" in the same sentence
11:36pahli_bar forum is the taboo word i believe
11:36kuhndog not trying to make a buck.. just trying to make it easy
11:37thor__ no, I think "wiki" is the really radioactive one
11:37kuhndog and hope to learn some stuff myself..
11:37kuhndog like to setup a gallery eventually too
11:38kuhndog post your mythtv pics are popular on the ML
11:38kvandivo you can call it mythgallery
11:38* kvandivo snickers.
11:38kuhndog heh
11:38kuhndog anyways.. its a little ways off... i gotta setup the cms.. and ask for admins..
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12:43pahli_bar uh oh... i smell c++ style flamewar
12:44kvandivo :) that's why they call it ++c
12:45thor__ c;;
12:46thor__ c++ with no friggin semicolons
12:46pahli_bar you mean c++-=;
12:46kvandivo that wouldn't compile..
12:46kvandivo c;; would, however..
12:47thor__ except in some versions of g++
12:47kvandivo well, when you are using g++, all bets are off
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12:52mdz both of them would fail since c wasn't declared
12:52thor__ ah, it's always a global in c;;
12:53thor__ expands to: cout << "stop using friggin semicolons " << endl
12:55o_cee is it possible to add .htaccess stuff (creating password file) on a webserver without (?) ssh?
12:55thor__ yup
12:55o_cee how'd i do that
12:55o_cee create a password file here and upload it?
12:55thor__ or use command line there to create .htaccess
12:56thor__ but it's totally insecure
12:56thor__ since the "passwords" go back and forth in the clear
12:56o_cee right
12:56mdz thor__: what's wrong with semicolons?
12:56o_cee maybe i should do a php page instead
12:56thor__ they are evil
12:56o_cee thor__: you just forget them all the time :)
12:56thor__ that too
12:56pahli_bar actually i like semicolons. lets you break lines anywhere you want
12:56mdz the passwords don't have to be in the clear; you can use digest auth
12:56mdz but nobody does
12:57pahli_bar otherwise you will get frigging 200 column line codes
12:57thor__ but this is evil if(!true); { and it still executes }
12:58o_cee mdz: mmkay.. ah well, i actually emailed their support :)
12:58pahli_bar thor__: heh. agree. that kind of thing should not be allowed by c++
12:58thor__ o_cee, misread your question
12:58o_cee oh
12:58thor__ saw ssh, though ssl
12:59thor__ thought
12:59o_cee ah :)
12:59o_cee but i'm sure i logged into them when i got the account info before.. very odd
13:00mdz thor__: you would only write an if statement like that if you'd been writing too many shell scripts :-P
13:00thor__ or you're not very bright
13:04pahli_bar or you want your app to hang
13:04thor__ or you take perverse delight in obfuscating things
13:05thor__ hmmm ... firebird's gone wonky
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13:10o_cee firebird? it's firefox now baby :)
13:11o_cee Chutt: hi?
13:11thor_ yeah, should probably change that
13:11o_cee yeah :)
13:11o_cee .8 baby
13:11o_cee new download manager is nice
13:11o_cee looks spiffy
13:12o_cee thor_: feeling adventeourous (sp?) :)
13:12o_cee oh damn forget it :)
13:12o_cee those lang updates aren't in cvs yet..
13:22mdz o_cee: what lang updates?
13:22o_cee mdz: swedish
13:22mdz o_cee: did you send a patch?
13:22o_cee yeah
13:22o_cee but not for the .ts yet
13:22o_cee only the xml
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13:30o_cee STUPID ;'s
13:31o_cee php complaining about the wrong line.. bah
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14:15kvandivo we might need a -dev-offtopic list as well...
14:17thor_ I vote for myth-dev++, although some might argue for myth-++dev
14:17* kvandivo throws back his head and cackles with insane glee.
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14:49Octane anyone know off the top of their head whats this field: TitlePlayCommand
14:49Octane from settings table
14:49thor_ play a dvd title (track)
14:49thor_ as opposed to just playing "the whole" dvd
14:49Octane ahhh
14:49thor_ view button from rip dialog
14:49Octane what part of mythdvd accesses that?
14:50Octane ahh rip got it
14:50Octane thanks
14:50thor_ yup
14:50Octane did anyone here read my ode to mythtv? :)
14:50thor_ not quite iambic pentameter, but quite enjoyable
14:50Octane lol
14:50Octane not at all
14:51Octane i was drunk at 4am :D
14:53thor_ oh crap, QString ("%x").arg() only works up to 9
14:54Octane whats that mean
14:54Chutt break it up, or use QString::sprintf
14:54thor_ am going to do query.prepare(), .bind(), .exec()
14:54Chutt that's even better =)
14:54thor_ :-)
14:54Chutt just be sure to use the 3.1 compatible query constructor
14:55thor_ ah
14:55thor_ ok
14:55Octane or just have octane code that part for u
14:55o_cee Chutt: you read my msg about ./setup?
14:56o_cee i saw your hidden commit ;)
14:56Chutt o_cee, yeah, but i'm busy
14:56Chutt hidden?
14:56Chutt that was part of the japanese patch.
14:56o_cee ah :)
14:56o_cee okay.. at least the menus work now
14:56o_cee tried looking at mythfrontend to figure out what's missing but didn't find it
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15:23vuud Hey all... typically how stable is the myth CVS code? By stable I mean is the codebase broken often (bugs are inherent on the bleeding edge I know)
15:25Chutt it's generally pretty stable
15:25Chutt if it's not, it'll be mentioned on the commits list
15:26vuud Okay, has the better duplicate management code made it in does anyone know off hand?
15:27mdz vuud: the implication is that if you are running CVS, you must be subscribed to -commits
15:27kvandivo the commit list would be the perfect place to find that out
15:30vuud mdz, yeah I know I have seen the documentation on that part - I am not running the CVS part - just debating on moving to it... I guess I'll go off and find a commit-list archive somewhere then thanks for the help and all
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15:41vuud It would be a great help to me personally if someone could tell me off hand if they remember improved duplicate tracking entries being added... I don't mind getting a RTFM, but the archives are NOT searchable, and the subjects and threads are all "mythtv commits" leaves me less appealing options to RTFM. Also, STFW yielded little on the current state of affairs...
15:42kvandivo i've discovered that you can download the gz/text file of the entire month and search it rather effectively on the commits. that's usually what i do if i've missed something or have a question
15:42Snow-Man Aren't all the lists searchable at gossermerthreads or whatever it is?
15:42kvandivo don't think commits is
15:42Snow-Man You might be able to get them to add it.
15:43Chutt snow-man, should i make a third list?
15:43Snow-Man Third list? For what?
15:43Chutt mythtv-offtopic
15:43Chutt for non mythtv related things
15:43Chutt hardware, etc
15:43Snow-Man That'd be the fourth list...
15:44thor_ myth-(if(++dev); {dev++})
15:44Chutt oh yeah
15:44Snow-Man You certainly can if you want.
15:44Chutt i can't decide
15:44Snow-Man I don't know about calling it -offtopic tho.
15:44Snow-Man If it's actually hardware then maybe -hardware or something.
15:44Chutt well, i'll put in the description: 'for non-mythtv related discussion -- hardware, general linux stuff, pointless whining about there not being a web forum'
15:45Snow-Man heh.
15:45Snow-Man Such whining probably wouldn't actually move. :)
15:45Chutt no, but i'd hope so
15:45Snow-Man Gotta be something people would use and would reduce (ideally, I guess) the stuff on the other lists.
15:47Snow-Man I dunno, maybe mythtv-os or something for OS-level stuff, like the kernel, drivers, hardware, etc.
15:47thor_ mythtv-etcetera
15:47Snow-Man I don't particularly like -offtopic/#offtopic stuff. :)
15:47Chutt ah
15:47Chutt i dunno
15:47Chutt i don't really mind the volume on the -users list
15:47Chutt but that's because i'm not trying to use it much
15:47Snow-Man Are other people bitching about it?
15:48vuud holy cow - is all that about my question?
15:48Snow-Man Uh, no, not really.
15:49* vuud sighs relief for not ticking every off and heads off do download some archives
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15:50Chutt snow-man, yeah, people are whining about the list not being a forum
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15:50Snow-Man Chutt: Well, that's just stupid.
15:51Chutt sure, but there's no iq test required for subscription
15:51GreyFoxx heh
15:51Snow-Man I don't think creating a new list would help that though.
15:52GreyFoxx Users will just post to all of them anyway to be "sure" the "right" people see the post. Kind of how a lot of stuff gets on both -users and -dev now
15:52Snow-Man heh, there's that too.
15:52Chutt yeah, but then i can yell at them
15:52Chutt and be mean and stuff
15:52Snow-Man haha.
15:52GreyFoxx Hehe you can do it now anyway! "You're stupid! No soup for you!" :)
15:52Snow-Man I'd yell at them and be mean anyway. :)
15:54thor_ we should discuss this in the overflowing forum: http://www.mythtvforum.net/
15:54Chutt We have 8 registered users
15:55thor_ which nearly matches the number of posts
16:04AridWrk afternoon. I've got a pvr250 and am using the ivtv 0.19 drivers and I had been experiencing system lockups while recording and I could never discover an error but today I got lucky and it froze while I was in console. I was wondering if anyone had experienced this error: kernel bug @ sched.c:1265! invalid operand:0000 kernel panic: AIEE, KILLING INTERRUPT HANDLER! in interupt handler - not syncing
16:05AridWrk mythTV 0.13
16:05Chutt mythtv is at 0.14 now.
16:05Chutt and you're talking about an ivtv problem
16:05AridWrk I'm in ivtv-dev as well I was just wondering if anyone had seen this before
16:13pahli_bar AridWrk: why not post in #linux and #debian/#gentoo while you are at it
16:15AridWrk I am posting on the gentoo forums thanks
16:16* solarce shakes his head
16:16* pahli_bar sighs and gets back to work
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16:58* Niqo thinks sid is pretty good, even fast on my slow .8k celery laptop :)
17:00solarce wtf is a .8k celery?
17:00solarce do you mean like .8 kilos of celery?
17:01solarce do you have a new bioorganic laptop made from genetically engineered celery?
17:01Niqo that's it, sid is good on celery..
17:01solarce is sid some sort of spread?
17:01solarce like vegemite?
17:01Niqo bahg
17:03* solarce sighs
17:03Niqo so, why are ppl complaining about forums n stuff when they exist?
17:04Niqo solarce: try googling
17:07solarce googling for celery?
17:08solarce celery is a vegetable
17:08solarce you eat it, good with peanut butter
17:08kvandivo burns more calories than it provides
17:08solarce it does?
17:09kvandivo i read that once.. not if you put peanut butter on it, obviously...
17:09solarce yeah
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17:13Niqo Chutt: so, the patch I mailed you was wrong, it did way to much in the event queue, hardly had to do anything in there...
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17:20Niqo how come the mailing lists are so slow, like 20min rr...?
17:22--- User: *** KeyserLaptop is now known as KeyserSoze
17:24Niqo when i'm going to (try to) improve the error handling for remote encoder, there is obviosly a bounch of roads to travel, any pointers or hints as to what might be the best solution?
17:25* Niqo seems to ramble to himself a lot, but he does not mind much..or have much of a
17:26Niqo Chris P: i posted a patch for the recorded screen, any chance that gets in?
17:27Chutt well, i dunno
17:27Chutt what error handling?
17:27Chutt just in case of disconnects?
17:28Chutt or bad signal?
17:28Niqo yea, kind of general error reporting/polling
17:28Chutt well, bad signal's kinda different
17:29Niqo don't mind the recorders, only remoteencoder's interface..
17:29Chutt but disconnects would really just need some checks to break out of some of the wait loop
17:29Chutt wait loops
17:29Chutt rather
17:29Niqo yea, was thinking of a frontend get_state query
17:30Niqo but that might be overload
17:30Chutt think it might be enough just to allow the frontend to die more?
17:30Chutt well, not die, but pop up an error message and return to the menu
17:31Niqo yea, that's the intention, kinda genereal catch all - The backend told us to abort because of an error, please check the backend log for more detail
17:31Chutt that'd be enough for me
17:32Niqo that is what I got now, the question really is wheter the frontend should poll the backend for errors, or vice versa (ie backend sends errors to frontend)
17:33Chutt well, hmm
17:33Chutt i don't think it should poll
17:33Chutt but there needs to be something there in case the backend goes away, and can't send it an error
17:33Niqo yea, too much traffic
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17:34Niqo connection problems should be handled differently..
17:34Niqo ie not ignored as now..kinda got it sortof fixed, but there's so many lines of code without err checks
17:35Chutt yeah
17:36Niqo also the communication protocol is spread all over the place, ever thought about gathering it all in one place?
17:37Chutt it's mostly in remoteencoder and remoteutil
17:37Chutt afaik
17:37kvandivo spread out is good, though! it encourages code exploration.
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17:37Chutt and those are different tasks, so i thought they should be split up
17:38Niqo and, tiny bits: the quit_livetv call for example is only done once, but still it's just tossed in tv_rec.cpp
17:38Chutt that's not a call, though =)
17:38Chutt that's a response to a backend query
17:39Niqo that's what i'm talking about, and the various WriteStringLists
17:39Niqo hmmm
17:40Niqo quit_livetv goes to the frontend...
17:40Niqo it's dispatched by gContext->dispatch()
17:40Chutt right
17:40Chutt it's an info message
17:41Chutt sorry, i got it backwards before
17:41Niqo ok, but it's still part of the protocol, yea?
17:41o_cee Captain_Murdoch: idea for you.. a legend for the priority screen (W, O, A and so on) on the "1" key like the one Isaac made on playbackbox.
17:42Chutt right, but different
17:43Niqo yea, it's a oneway request, where as most of the others are twoway!
17:43Niqo but still =)
17:44Niqo Ah Well, I'll have another look tomorrow, I'm approaching 22 hours of uptime, so ..
17:44Chutt heh, ok
17:46Niqo Tanks btw!
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18:21pigeon anyone got a diskless box setup as a mythtv client?
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18:27lmatter pigeon, I do.
18:29pigeon lmatter: lan is going to be fast enough for viewing tv/recording and stuff right?
18:30pigeon got a guy here wanting to setup a diskless box for something like this, but he's not sure how much cpu/resources/etc will be needed.
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18:33lmatter pigeon, we should take this to #mythtv-users.
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19:32Omnic hrm...
19:33Omnic what is it, that causes the delay in a scheduled recording to disappear in mythweb, if you manually remove an entry from the record table?
19:33Omnic the green border goes, but the listing sticks around for a while.. (not sure how long)
19:39dja_ is anyone else having a problem when deleting a show (where the "Yes, but record..." button doesn't show up)?
19:39dja_ (this is with current cvs -- I didn't have the problem pre-February 5th CVS)
19:41Chutt dja, captain_murdoch did it
19:43dja_ broke it, or fixed it? :)
19:43Chutt changed how it works
19:43Chutt i'm not sure he did it right =)
19:43dja_ ahh...ok, I'll ping him next time he's around...:)
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19:51Omnic Chutt: you have any idea on the above? is that a mythweb thing, or is there something in the scheduler that gives a delay? (a thread that needs to wake up?)
19:51Omnic Or do you not know?
19:53Chutt the scheduler doesn't recalculate until it's told to
19:53Chutt if you're manually touching the db, you're not telling it to recalculate.
19:55Omnic ahhh... right, there's a flag that does that, right?
19:55Omnic where is that? in code, or a table in the db?
19:55Chutt table in the db
19:56Omnic hmmm... instead of reading code for an hour to try and find it, can you tell me which one? :P
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20:18o_cee Chutt: would you accept a script for the swedish listnings to go to the contrib dir or something? not me writing it so i don't know if he wants to release it.. but it'll hopefully find re-runs of the same episodes and give them meaningful description from the show it's a re-run of.. right now it just says "Re-run from x/y" wich makes the scheduler pissy
20:19o_cee there's no better listnings here at all :/
20:21o_cee another thing i noticed while playing around today.. watch recording and delete recording is the exact same thing now when there's the M and I menu (dunno how long it's been in delete, never use it).. feels like it could be removed imo.. damn i'm tired btw
20:21o_cee mumbling to myself
20:21o_cee Captain_Murdoch: the drawing darkness an inch at the top is the same at delete screen as well, and fully reproducable
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20:23return0 hello
20:24return0 anyone using a geforce2 for tv-out?
20:24o_cee please take a look at the topic.
20:25return0 mmmkay
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22:05Chiphead Im running kernel 2.6.0 and ivtv 0.1.18 and get i2c client addr:0x21 not found! any ideas?
22:07Chutt try 0.1.9?
22:07Chutt or the #ivtv-dev?
22:12Chiphead 0.1.18 is what I got. Ill try the other channel
22:12Chiphead 0.1.19
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22:39mdz Chutt: can you reproduce that CheckChannelPrefix crash? it doesn't happen here
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22:59Octane Chutt did u read my poem
22:59billytwowilly| heh, octane please don't make a mythpoem plugin;)
23:00Octane LOL
23:00billytwowilly| I don't think I could take it;)
23:00Octane that would be too funny
23:00Octane like an electronic voice reading robert frost
23:00billytwowilly| heh. dammit...
23:00billytwowilly| I think I've planted the seeds of my own demise;)
23:03billytwowilly| thor_: are you around?
23:04thor_ yup
23:05billytwowilly| I have a quick question.
23:05thor_ 42
23:05billytwowilly| possibly;)
23:05billytwowilly| If I'm trying to calculate effective interest rates and I'm given a bi-weekly interest rate plus a surcharge amount how do I figure out how the surcharge amount affects the interest rate without the borrowed amount?
23:06thor_ surcharge not a function of borrowed amount ?
23:06* billytwowill thinks his econ prof made the mistake of leaving out the borrowed amount on purpose just to give his students a nervous breakdown.
23:06billytwowilly| 50 dollar surcharge mentioned.
23:06billytwowilly| no borrowed amount mentioned.
23:07thor_ well, interest rates are a function of principal
23:08thor_ $50 on $50 makes for a pretty darn high interest rate, $50 on $50,000,000 is a rounding error
23:08thor_ you could express it a function of "x" though
23:08billytwowilly| I know how to calculate the effective interest rate on the percentage. It's just (1+X%)^time period -1
23:08billytwowilly| I just don't know what to do with the 50 dollar surcharge...
23:09thor_ you need a 50/X term in the expansion
23:09billytwowilly| ok. It sounds like the prof just made a mistake then...
23:10thor_ he may well want to see if you can carry through the math by expressing the effect as a function of X
23:10billytwowilly| thanks.
23:10thor_ yup
23:10billytwowilly| possibly. hmm.
23:11billytwowilly| so for a yearly rate then it would be effective calculated with the percentage I talked about earlier + (50/X)*100 ?
23:11thor_ I would have to find a pen
23:12thor_ to be sure
23:12billytwowilly| Don't worry about it.
23:12thor_ but you're not far off
23:12billytwowilly| I'll think on it a bit more.
23:12billytwowilly| thanks.
23:12thor_ yup
23:12billytwowilly| I still think/hope the prof made a mistake;)
23:12billytwowilly| if not, then my midterm tommorrow will be a pain in the arse;)
23:13billytwowilly| anyhoo, back to studying, and thanks again.
23:13thor_ yup
23:13billytwowilly| I swear I'll try and forget that I can usually talk to someone with an econ degree by going on #mythtv;)
23:14thor_ if interest is paid on the surcharge amount, then you have to compound that over time as well
23:21Chutt mdz, nope, i can't reproduce it
23:21mdz maybe his database is busted
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23:53Chutt shouldn't be touching that code at all
---Logclosed Thu Feb 12 00:00:30 2004