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#mythtv IRC Logs for 2004-12-06

---Logopened Mon Dec 06 00:00:22 2004
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00:04Chutt yeah
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00:14dopester any idea when 17 will be packaged up? im trying to decide how little i need to finish up to get it into the nxt version if there is time..
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00:17Chutt not for a while yet
00:18dopester while like 1-2 mos?
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00:34Chutt dopester, no idea
00:35dopester ok. i'll just keep truding along.. is it safe to assume no feedback means it works?
00:35Chutt yeah, good enough
00:35dopester had around 110 downloads of the patch and maybe 1-2 complaints about crap we already knew about
00:36dopester have you had a chance to glace it and see if there is anything you feel is done improperly that i need to fix?
00:36Chutt i haven't checked since i commented on stuff last time, really
00:37dopester ok thats fine.. i know youve been busy..
00:37dopester i told you i got a card here that im writing drivers for that can do digital cable for the us right?
00:40Chutt think so
00:40dopester yeah just waiting on an i2c logger to get it working right
00:40Chutt cool.
00:40Chutt bed time for me
00:40dopester i just dont think you will be able to get it after the broadcast flag drop dead dae though :(
00:40Chutt heh
00:40dopester yeah same here.. have to interview for my job tomoorrow morning
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01:01montumba hi all... im about to start using mythTV however I was making sure that what i expected to be able to do with it was reasonable...
01:01montumba figured this was the place to ask
01:01Beirdo nope
01:01* Beirdo points at the topic
01:02montumba ok... thanks sorry...
01:02* montumba always forgets to read the topic
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01:57Majestik Anyone know if/when the altivec stuff will get commited to cvs?
01:57Chutt weekend
01:57Majestik next weekend?
01:57Chutt probably
01:57Chutt i was too busy this one to commit anything
01:58Majestik how come so long?
01:58Majestik busy on weekdays.. k
01:58Majestik commits like those are yours alone?
01:59Chutt pretty much
01:59Chutt no one else does em
02:00Beirdo Probably good to have one ultimate authority on that stuff :)
02:00Majestik K
02:00Majestik Of course :)
02:00Chutt eh, i'd like it if more people applied patches
02:01* Majestik shouldn't apply patches, or he would offer help
02:01Beirdo Hmm. Yeah, it must be a pain *having* to do it.
02:01Chutt it's just reading them over
02:01Chutt testing
02:02Majestik You really need people who agree with the way of doing things though..
02:02Beirdo but the good thing is, if you're testing them, then you're less likely to put in code that breaks things unknowingly
02:02Majestik isn't testing what cvs is for?
02:03Chutt i like keeping cvs working
02:03Chutt since i, well, use it =)
02:03Beirdo gigem's recent checkins I don't think had *quite* enough testing done (my personal feeling)
02:03Majestik :)
02:03Chutt no one tested them, though
02:03Beirdo I second that motion as I'm using it too.
02:03Chutt and they were pretty invasive changes
02:04Beirdo yeah. Fixed the editor, broke other things. Sigh
02:04Majestik And those can never be really tested enough by one person..
02:04Beirdo I'm watching the thread in -dev mailing list with great interest
02:05Beirdo I'd be interested in helping out with patches, but I don't know my way around the code terribly well and would be afraid to mess things up
02:06Beirdo that and the "too many things on the go" thing. I'm sure I'm not alone on that
02:07Beirdo that's a pretty common thing amongst people that do open-source stuff, I think
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02:22Emma242 2004-12-06 08:25:25 ERROR opening file in ThreadedFileWriter. "/usr/cache//ringbuf1.nuv": file does not exist... how do I fix that, what does it mean?
02:22Emma242 oh
02:22Emma242 sorry
02:22Emma242 should've read topic
02:22Emma242 :-P
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11:16Torq Umm, anyone else getting mythtv-dev emails twice?
11:21Chutt nope
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11:25Torq wacky. i must be on the mailing list twice or something
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12:10TheWildgoose | Hi Chutt: I'm not getting much feedback on the patch to integrate mythmusic audio into libmyth... Can I fixup the patch, remove the debugging comments and ask to pop it into cvs to get some wider feedback?
12:11Chutt sure
12:11Chutt i haven't had any time whatsoever to test things recently
12:11TheWildgoose | I don't expect it to break anything, but I could have made some tiny gremlin in something like the MAD or avfdecoder since I haven't got anything handy to test those with
12:11TheWildgoose | Hope not though..
12:11Chutt wouldn't worry about it too much
12:11Chutt all i care about are oggs and flacs =)
12:12Chutt and if the visualizations are still in sync with the audio
12:12TheWildgoose | Yeah, me too! Although I'm totally flac
12:12TheWildgoose | Yeah, that's true too!
12:12TheWildgoose | I am going to change all the byte counters to work either on millisecs or frames
12:12TheWildgoose | I find it quite hard to work out what I am getting from all the different functions at the moment
12:13TheWildgoose | In the case of the visualisations you also need the visualiser needing to know bytes per sec and stuff like that (which it shouldn't really need to know)
12:13gr8nash i know that many devs like projection systems.. and this may be interesting to you..
12:13gr8nash http://www.gizmodo.com/archives/better-picture-of-sonys-black-backed-projection-screen-016964.php
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12:17TheWildgoose | Chutt: I posted a dumbass question about dpi and font sizing to the dev list. Do you have any educated guesses as to what I might be seeing?
12:17TheWildgoose | Main change that I can see is that I have a funny aspect ratio with non-square pixels
12:17Chutt myth assumes a 100x100 dpi setting for fonts
12:18Chutt it doesn't compensate for other stuff
12:18Chutt mythui does, however, so that'll be taken care of when i start rewriting the entire ui..
12:18o_cee TheWildgoose :)
12:19o_cee Chutt: saw you talked about applying patches. if you see something minor/easier (heh) just let me know and i'll try/commit it
12:20Chutt that's alright
12:20Chutt i'd really need someone who was more of a programmer :p
12:21o_cee heh, i'm working on it ;) reading a course in realtime programming atm heh
12:21TheWildgoose | Chutt: OK, thanks, guess it's not something fixing in the short term then (sorry for butting in o_cee)
12:22o_cee TheWildgoose: why can't you just do as i wrote in my reply?
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12:22TheWildgoose | Not sure what you meant ?
12:22o_cee feel free to butt in whenever you want ;)
12:22TheWildgoose | I have a non-square dpi?
12:22o_cee why can't you get 100dpi ?
12:22TheWildgoose | I can, but then the fonts are faaarr to large
12:22o_cee heh, k
12:22o_cee what kind of display device?
12:22TheWildgoose | TV
12:22o_cee Chutt: happy with the proj?
12:23o_cee TheWildgoose: yeah, i've also got a tv, haven't got any problems.
12:23TheWildgoose | I'm not sure exactly why, but I need to drop the dpi down to around the 70dpi range to get decent sized fonts
12:23TheWildgoose | what is your tv res though?
12:24o_cee PAL?
12:24TheWildgoose | yep
12:25TheWildgoose | my nvidia card only wants to work at 720x576, but the screen is 16:9 (ie non-square)
12:25o_cee yeah, of course
12:25TheWildgoose | This should be good for video though because there will be no resizing required... (hopefully)
12:25o_cee you just use a stretchmode, mine's called Live something
12:25TheWildgoose | ?
12:25o_cee on your tv, that stretches 4:3 into 16:9, not much to do about it any other way
12:26o_cee only other way would be to send an anamorphic picture and use a Wide mode
12:26o_cee haven't tried that
12:27TheWildgoose | I'm not sure what you mean? Lots of my tv video is widescreen, but some is 4:3. I need to leave the tv in 16:9 mode basically
12:28TheWildgoose | everything looks fine, it's just the fonts aren't quite in the right place and you need to make them quite small to prevent overlaps of the titles and the content text
12:28o_cee you can't send anything else than 4:3 to a normal tv.
12:28TheWildgoose | ok. I will play with it. Gotta go and work on my letters to sue a builder now. Sorry all
12:28TheWildgoose | thanks
12:30o_cee cya
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12:52Chutt kvandivo, around?
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13:06kvandivo yes
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13:17bbeattie Is anyone working on the bug that's putting mythweb threads into loops and taking 5seconds to infinity to render thumbnail images for each recording in the recordings menus?
13:20Beirdo I'm *hoping* that gigem is working on it with the rest of his speedup/cleanup stuff
13:21Chutt since it's his bug, he is :p
13:21Chutt kvandivo, made a frame for my screen yesterday =)
13:21Chutt well, 2 frames, actually
13:22Chutt one for the actual screen part, then another to sit on top and be covered with black fabric
13:25kvandivo the black one for the frame?
13:25kvandivo or to cover the whole thing?
13:26Chutt for a border
13:26kvandivo very good. we are still working on a good solution for that
13:26kvandivo trying to find reasonably priced black cloth that absorbs most of the light..
13:26Chutt the damn thing's a 1/4 inch off square, though, so i'm trying to decide if i want to trim some edges or just live with it
13:26Chutt we bought some black cotten velvet for $5 a yard
13:27Chutt cotton, too!
13:27kvandivo hmm.. that's not bad.. a chain store?
13:27Chutt local jo-anns
13:27kvandivo no kidding... hmm.. i don't remember seeing much below $10 there.. maybe another trip is called for
13:28kvandivo we use the proj for multiple purposes... for tv viewing we have it at 4x3 and zoomed in all the way.. for movies, we zoom it out and put it in 16x9 mode...
13:28kvandivo it really complicates adding the border
13:29Chutt ah
13:29Chutt i was thinking of adding some velcro strips to the top and bottom of the outer frame
13:29Chutt so i could make some black strips to mask off 4:3
13:30kvandivo since you've got a true 16x9 it just puts bars on both sides when you do 4x3, right?
13:30Chutt yup
13:31kvandivo are you using the zoom at all?
13:31Chutt manual zoom, i'm about in the middle for my 80" screen at 12 feet
13:31kvandivo on the benq we can zoom from a 'factor' of 1, to 1.2... not much, but it lets us get the 16x9 pic a little wider
13:32Chutt ah. i would like a electronic zoom, but, not this model :(
13:32Chutt i've given up on ceiling mounting the thing, though. just going to build a shelf for it
13:32kvandivo no kidding. that would rock.. i was thinking about that the other day... it would be nice to have the ability for custom settings... would include the zoom, the focus, and the 4x3/16x9 setting..
13:32Chutt yeah, hit a button, and it switches
13:33kvandivo precisely... on the shelf, how high are you making the shelf?
13:33Chutt since i'll probably want to make regular tv viewing smaller, so the crappiness of the signal isn't as visible
13:33kvandivo i assume you are going to have the projector 'right side up', so you will probably have to do a lot of keystone correction
13:33Chutt probably around 6.5 feet
13:33Chutt if i can get it flat, no correction =)
13:33Chutt as long as i stay near the center of the lense position adjustment
13:34Baylink kvandivo: some projectors, like some other widescreen tv's, have that silly "stretched" thing that widens out the last 5th or so of the pic at each end.
13:34Baylink Oddly: it's not all that annoying.
13:34kvandivo ahh.. the benq naturally projects 'up'
13:35kvandivo if you have the benq sitting on a table, the bottom of the projected image will be almost at the height of the projector
13:35Chutt one of the reasons for not ceiling mounting mine is the fan turns on louder when it's in upside-down mode
13:35kvandivo interesting..
13:35Chutt i can adjust the image from the bottom being right above the lens, to the top being right below the lense
13:35Chutt err, i really can't type today
13:36kvandivo Baylink: not familiar with that setting... and Chutt: that's a nice setting to have.. the benq definitely doesn't have that
13:36Chutt yeah, it's flexible =)
13:36Chutt but the image gets less rectangular the futher out it goes
13:36kvandivo does keystone correction fix that?
13:36kvandivo or is it not even trapezoidal..
13:37Chutt it does, but keystone loses resolution
13:37kvandivo nod
13:37Chutt so i'm trying not to have to do that
13:37kvandivo absolutely
13:37Chutt but, movies look simply amazing on this thing =)
13:37kvandivo ya.. once you've seen how well a projector works, you'll never forget it..
13:37Chutt i need to decide which side of the blackout fabric i want to use
13:38kvandivo i still remember the first night we had the thing.. i think she put one of the star wars ones in.. it came closer to giving that true theater feeling than i had ever seen
13:38kvandivo we tried both sides of the blackout cloth and couldn't tell much difference
13:38kvandivo at least the blackout cloth that joanns sells... some other versions might be more obvious
13:38Chutt i (hopefully) get my carpet installed on wednesday, so i'll get to start relocating my stereo and everything downstairs
13:39Chutt kvandivo, my wife thought the vinyl side was slightly brighter
13:39kvandivo there you go, then. :)
13:39Chutt but i wasn't so sure
13:39Chutt ah well
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13:39Chutt hopefully get that all cut and stretched on the frame tonight
13:40kvandivo didn't take us too long.. on our 50x94 screen it only took an hour or two..
13:40Chutt cool.
13:40kvandivo and i ended up taking a few staples out in the middle of that to readjust
13:40Chutt 40x70 or so, here =)
13:41kvandivo we are finding that a lot of dvds that say they are 16x9 are actually 2.35:1
13:41Chutt well, yeah
13:41Chutt they say they're 16x9 because they're anamorphic
13:42Chutt so there's a little more vertical resolution on them
13:42kvandivo ahh.. interesting.. hadn't looked into it..
13:42Chutt but the letterboxing certainly isn't as bad as it was with my old tv =)
13:42Chutt ie, over 2/3s of the image
13:42kvandivo you have a good dvd player? i've been considering one of those that outputs 720p or 1080i.. but i'm not convinced that it will help all that much
13:43Chutt i've got an old sony changer
13:43Chutt older, at least
13:43Chutt it's big and massive, but doesn't do progressive scan. it does have component outs, though
13:43Chutt i haven't seen any problems with the scaler on the projector, though
13:43kvandivo ya.. they don't have many of the ones that automatically upconvert yet... i guess that the source media is only 480p, though.. (isn't 480p 720x480 ?)
13:44Chutt souce media's 480i, actually
13:44Chutt same resolution, though
13:44kvandivo and the prog scan part does the doubling
13:44kvandivo my dvd player is similar to yours... old with comp outs but no prog scan..
13:45Torq Chutt: I am getting all mailing list emails twice for sure, i think there is a problem with the mailing list. have checked the web frontend to the list, all looks fine there. Could you bear to check the user db and see if I am there twice?
13:45Chutt sure
13:46Torq I changed my settings to digest, and am now getting all digest emails twice...
13:46Chutt address you're subscribed with?
13:48Chutt looks fine
13:48Chutt i'm not seeing dupes being sent in the mail logs, either.
13:48Torq totally wacky
13:48Torq i will check mailserver etc here
13:50Torq id=20041205042840.GB28917@opus
13:50Torq id=20041205042658.GA28917@opus
13:50Torq Chutt: your mailserver is sending twice
13:51Chutt heh
13:51Chutt snow-man, wake up.
13:54Snow-Man what?
13:54Chutt mailman acting wacky?
13:54Snow-Man More like mailing list software
13:54Torq the mailing list is sending one copy of the email to each of my MXs
13:55Torq so seeing as each MX gets an email, i get it twice
13:55Torq If you need msg ids lemmeknow
13:55Snow-Man heh, alright, wanna bet on if your main MX is acknowledging the mail? :)
13:55Snow-Man Yes, a message ID would be useful
13:55Torq 200412061808.iB6I83HS024226@www.mythtv.org
13:56Torq 200412061808.iB6I83HS024226@www.mythtv.org
13:56Torq i.e. they have the same msgid
13:56Snow-Man It's only in my log as having been delivered once.
13:57Torq what does your log say it was delivered to?
13:57Snow-Man Dec 6 18:08:04 www sm-mta-localhost[24226]: iB6I83HS024226: from=<mythtv-dev-bounces@mythtv.org>, size=76749, class=-30, nrcpts=8, msgid=<200412061808.iB6I83HS024226@www.m
13:57Snow-Man ythtv.org>, proto=ESMTP, daemon=MTA, relay=localhost [127.0.0.1]
13:57Snow-Man Dec 6 18:13:37 www sm-mta-mqueue[24334]: iB6I83HV024226: to=<jimbo-mythtv@edwardsclan.net>, delay=00:05:33, xdelay=00:00:09, mailer=esmtp, pri=460749, relay=server-1-keith
13:57Snow-Man .e-trans-c.com. [66.218.241.15], dsn=2.0.0, stat=Sent ( <200412061808.iB6I83HS024226@www.mythtv.org> Queued mail for delivery)
13:57Snow-Man server-1-keith.e-trans-c.com
13:57Torq thats nothing to do with me...
13:57Snow-Man well, that's what's in the log. :)
13:57Chutt that's not him
13:57Snow-Man wtf that message id anyway.
13:57Torq I think your mailing list setup is seriously broken
13:57Snow-Man err, wrt
13:58Snow-Man uh-huh
13:58Snow-Man That's nice.
13:58Torq sorry :)
13:58Snow-Man See, that just makes me very uninterested in helping you figure out your brokewn mail server problem >:)
13:58Torq clue - mythtv.org ([70.84.9.187]:49602 is on one message
14:00Snow-Man erm, that's actually useless.
14:00Torq yes it is actually
14:00Torq :)
14:01Torq I've had three emails today from www.mythtv.org with that message id
14:01Snow-Man What's your address?
14:04Torq deliveries of all three message-ids were successful
14:04Torq nothing in the way of rejects or dubious protocol exchanges in my rejectlog
14:04Snow-Man erm, of the same message-id, you mean?
14:04Torq yes, same message-id
14:05Snow-Man OK id=1CbNX7-0001II-IQ
14:05Snow-Man Do you have that for all three?
14:06Snow-Man Whatever it is
14:06kvandivo Torq: just add a procmail recipe that filters through formail and you won't have that problem anymore..
14:06Snow-Man (It's a response your mail server sends)
14:06Snow-Man kvandivo: That's not really the point.
14:06kvandivo :)
14:06Snow-Man I do see a bunch of mail delivered to that address, via a couple different MXs.
14:07Snow-Man There's an occational 'stat=Deferred'
14:07Snow-Man Dec 6 12:24:21 www sm-mta-mqueue[23505]: iB6CL2d9023374: timeout waiting for input from sun1.cup.cam.ac.uk. during client DATA status
14:07Snow-Man Dec 6 12:24:21 www sm-mta-mqueue[23505]: iB6CL2d9023374: to=<amell@cambridge.org>, delay=00:03:17, xdelay=00:00:16, mailer=esmtp, pri=10317457, relay=mx.cam.ac.uk., dsn=4.
14:07Snow-Man 0.0, stat=Deferred
14:08Snow-Man Dec 6 12:30:22 www sm-mta-mqueue[24074]: iB6CR2YP023914: timeout waiting for input from sun1.cup.cam.ac.uk. during client DATA status
14:10Snow-Man Dec 6 18:10:05 www sm-mta-mqueue[24355]: iB6I83HU024226: timeout waiting for input from sun1.cup.cam.ac.uk. during client DATA status
14:10Snow-Man So, I'll give you a guess as to why you're seeing multiple copies of the message... :)
14:15Snow-Man oh, and...
14:15Snow-Man 13:56 <Snow-Man> heh, alright, wanna bet on if your main MX is acknowledging the mail? :)
14:15Torq Hum. yes, it virus scans it.
14:15Snow-Man How 'bout you do that on your own time, hmm?
14:16Torq What MTA are you using? sendmail?
14:16Snow-Man And don't slow up mail delivery from me because of it.
14:16Snow-Man What difference does it make?
14:16Chutt people that slow down the list delivery suck and shouldn't be allowed to run mail servers.
14:16Snow-Man Chutt: :)
14:17Torq Cheers... :)
14:19Torq any idea what status response you are getting from my MXes?
14:20Snow-Man Uh, it's a *timeout*. :)
14:20Snow-Man "timeout waiting for input from sun1.cup.cam.ac.uk. during client DATA status"
14:21Chutt basically, your crappy virus scan is taking so long that it's giving up on delivering it.
14:21Torq thats when its waiting for a response after end of data. i.e. 550
14:21Chutt and you're slowing down mail delivery for _everyone_
14:21Snow-Man Don't hold up acknowledging the mail till after your virus scan
14:21Snow-Man accept the mail and *then* virus scan it
14:22Torq I am slowing it for everyone? doesnt it go and do others while its waiting?
14:22Chutt there's only so many processes trying to deliver at a time.
14:22Torq nobody else has a problem. and these machines accept 250K emails a day
14:22Snow-Man Eh, it runs in parallel, sure, but *some* people end up behind you. :)
14:22Chutt we send more email than that a day :p
14:23Snow-Man From one poor box. :)
14:23Beirdo I'm not surprised about that at all
14:23Torq really? how many subscribers on myth-dev?
14:23gr8nash Snow-Man about how many email your send a day?
14:23Chutt torq, couple thousand
14:23Chutt more on users, less on commits
14:24Snow-Man Been a while since I did a 'real' count.
14:24Torq I'll ask on the exim mailing list about this, its strange, whats your exact mail software version?
14:24Snow-Man Torq: It's not strange at all.
14:24Chutt www:/var/log# zgrep Sent mail.log.4.gz | wc -l
14:24Chutt 495851
14:24Torq scanning for spam and virus before sending a status code is commonplace.
14:24Snow-Man Torq: I've lowered the timeouts because there's no reason it *should* take that long to respond.
14:24cmorgan hah
14:25Snow-Man Torq: It's foolish.
14:25Torq Ah, you lowered the timeouts....
14:25cmorgan Snow-Man: just lower them to reasonable levels, its up to the receiver to fix their stuff then
14:25Torq Its the only way I get zero spam
14:25kvandivo huh?
14:25Snow-Man I don't really give a shit about your spam problems. :)
14:25Chutt torq, how would acking the mail before scanning change that?
14:25cmorgan how long is the timeout?
14:25cmorgan minutes? seconds?
14:25Torq gotta dash to the curry house, will look into this later
14:26Snow-Man Torq: If I didn't lower the timeouts it'd be taking much longer to deliver the mail because of a few idiots. :)
14:26Torq I appreciate your candour...
14:26Snow-Man cmorgan: There's 2 queues, one with tight timeouts and one with RFC required ones.
14:26cmorgan gotcha
14:26Chutt like all the people who advocate making mail 'computationally expensive to send' on slashdot
14:26Snow-Man After a while mail will bounce out of the fast queue and into the slower one.
14:27Snow-Man Chutt: Yeah, ain't it great?
14:27cmorgan thats a good design
14:27Snow-Man cmorgan: It's worked pretty well so far. :)
14:27Torq not in this case...
14:27Snow-Man I havn't had that many complaints about it really.
14:27Chutt gets mail to most people quickly
14:27Chutt those that can't run their mail servers properly can just unsubscribe if they don't like it =)
14:28Snow-Man Just a couple of people who either a) have virus/whatever scanners (Torq here), or b) put explicit pre-defined timeouts in place to "stop the spammers" but aren't actually *doing* anything with that time but taking up resources on my mail server.
14:28kvandivo it another case of theory not matching reality.. in theory it would be great to have all of this automated checking, etc. in reality, the negatives outweigh the positives..
14:29o_cee damn C is just so.. anal.. sometimes. argh
14:29Snow-Man I had one guy who had a *30 second* delay before responding to MAIL From: or something
14:29Snow-Man Do you know how long it'd take to deliver 250k mails if everybody had a 30 second delay?
14:29Beirdo that would be horrible
14:29Snow-Man Even running with a crapload of parallel processes it'd get ugly.
14:31kvandivo "I have a 3.0GHz HT P4 with 1 gig of RAM. To get three programs to make it
14:32kvandivo an hour without an overrun, I am currently using a ringbuffer size of 96 meg." :)
14:35Chutt stupid p4 server is taking forever to commit stuff
14:35Beirdo good thing it's not a P166MMX :)
14:35Snow-Man It doesn't seem to be all *that* busy, atm.
14:36Chutt work stuff, not ours
14:36Snow-Man oh. :)
14:36Snow-Man I wonder what bma's rsync is all about tho.
14:36Chutt unless you're running a perforce server on there..
14:37Snow-Man Not yet... :)
14:38o_cee hda to send my damn waterblock back today, it leaked... good i tested it before putting it in my comp. heh
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17:31bbeattie Who's over documentation? I just noticed that several hundred of lines pertaining to setting up myth for HDTV are gone from the docs...
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17:33kvandivo rkulagow
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19:48o_cee GeckoFiend: you around?
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20:24GeckoFiend kinda
20:39o_cee nevermind..
20:40Beirdo heh
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20:43o_cee realized i'll eventually have to do it myself
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21:36Beirdo Chutt: to let you know, gigem's checkin of about 2.5h ago seems to have fixed previews for me.
21:37Beirdo it was a missing intialization of framesPlayed (or was it framesRead?) to 0
21:37Beirdo of all the lousy things to cause a problem :)
21:38dopester ???? + 1 = who knows.. heh
21:39Beirdo yeah
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22:00Delemas Hmm time for another snapshot I guess...
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23:19dopester any idea how many cards the pchdtv guys have sold?
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---Logclosed Tue Dec 07 00:00:57 2004