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#openttd IRC Logs for 2007-04-11

---Logopened Wed Apr 11 00:00:19 2007
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02:51<Ailure>[00:54] <hillary___> Hello..foryou.. AN INVITATION TO THE TRUTH click please (choose language please)
02:51<Ailure>talks like a foreign student here
02:52<Ailure>oh god
02:52<Ailure>it's one of thoose propoganda sites against science
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04:02<Maedhros>Digi<tab>: ttrs3 seems to be using newindustries code for the banks, rather than sprite replacement
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04:10<Zuu>[noai] Hmm.. how would it if SQ could print out which companys instance of the script that crashed...
04:14<@peter1138>Maedhros: indeed
04:14<@peter1138>to the digi<tab> heh
04:34<Zuu>hmm.. nooo *not* a good idea to put status in company-name => the base-name seams to be free when a new AI is started... :( Perhaps a pharser can solve that though... :)
04:34<Zuu>Now I got 3 AIs with the same base-name... :/
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05:05<jansk>Are there any daily restarting multiplayer games? I would like to participate from as early on as possible.
05:05<@peter1138>my server tends to be singleplayer ;/
05:06<Zuu>Another nice thing that is more related to my code is when 7 AIs try to connect two cities at the same time they fool each other so that some road-stations end up at road-stumps that are not connected to the city-road-network. :)
05:07<Zuu>A such case can hapen if a city expands over the lower population-limit and all AIs have connected all possible towns above the limits.
05:07<jansk>I think it would be nice to play "competitive" for, say, 24 hours at a time.
05:08<Zuu>jansk: Not that I am aware of. There is #openttdcoop but that is probably not what you are looking for.
05:12<jansk>Well, no, it's not - but it sounds fairly interesting!
05:13<jansk>I'm just afraid I am too much a newbie to team up with anyone. :)
05:29<Zuu>If you know how to build stations and connect them to a side-line, you can join their sandbox and do such things.
05:29<Zuu>Just join their channel and tell them before you join.
05:31<Zuu>But you will need a quite fast computer on #openttdcoop since they often have much more trains than your avagere single-player-game.
05:31<Nigel>in the end it's always 500
05:32<Nigel>I did coop'ing for a week or two and kinda got fed up
05:32[~]Zuu got feed up after a few hours
05:33<Nigel>well yeah, thats true
05:34<Zuu>But it is often beutifull to watch the networks. :)
05:36<jansk>Yeah I am not so newbie, really, just haven't played online before.
05:36<jansk>Maybe I'll get enough courage some day.
05:44<Zuu>jansk: Try playing with your own company first on a server. (and remember to set password on your company)
05:45<Zuu>Try a server with harder settings if you want to avoid the worst players.
05:56<Zuu>[crazy stuff] Hmm.. there is no SetSignText(signID).. /me thinks communicating though road-bits bight be esier. 3H
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08:17<@peter1138>mr belugas
08:19<@Belugas>Mister Peter1138, i salute Thou
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09:18<CIA-2>OpenTTD: truelight * r9591 /branches/noai/ (4 files in 2 dirs):
09:18<CIA-2>OpenTTD: [NoAI] -Fix: SetCompanyName() in fact set the president name (Zuu)
09:18<CIA-2>OpenTTD: [NoAI] -Add: added SetPresidentName() and GetPresidentName()
09:18<CIA-2>OpenTTD: [NoAI] -Update: updated the regression
09:27<boekabart_>I see 'steep slopes' mentioned here and there... ( ).. but what are 'shallow' slopes then?
09:28<@peter1138>slopes that are not steep
09:28<TheMask96>lol :)
09:28<TrueBrain>british logic
09:28<TrueBrain>I never understood
09:29<@peter1138>steep slopes are tiles where one corner is 2 levels higher than its opposite corner
09:32<boekabart_>I also read somewhere (googled) that tunnel entrances can be built but need 2 shallow slopes. Is this a new thing?
09:33<Eddi|zuHause3>afaik, that was a planned feature, but never got implemented
09:39<@peter1138>tunnels need two 'shallow' slopes...
09:40<blathijs>steep slopes are not really steeper than normal slopes, realy
09:40[~]peter1138 nods
09:40<blathijs>but they are slopes throughout the whole tile
09:40<blathijs>instead of just half the tile
09:42<Eddi|zuHause3>well, tunnels need 2 slopes, but also have 2 entrances, so one slope per entrance :)
09:43<blathijs>hmm, indeed, my statement isn't really true
09:43<Osai>DaleStan: I am installing strace now
09:43<Eddi|zuHause3>but we need steeper slopes, because the current tunnel entrances are a graphical hack
09:44<Eddi|zuHause3>and more flexible handling of foundations
09:45<@peter1138>same with bridges
09:46<neli>tunnel entrances cannot be built diagonally anyway
09:47<Eddi|zuHause3>but they should be...
09:48<boekabart_>right. nothing new ;)
09:48<Eddi|zuHause3>i also think a change in the scale of tiles should be made, like making small houses 2x2 tiles... then the building of "double tracks" could be made more realistically
09:49<Eddi|zuHause3>could also make for different sized roads
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09:51<Eddi|zuHause3>but that is probably a task for the not so near future
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10:15<Zuu>[noai] if you have something (have not tested what) in you /bin/ai/ directory ./openttd --help segfaults. Might look into that later, just noticed that it don't by default but in my working-copy of noai-branch it --help segfaults.
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10:16<Zuu>(vim command to fix my last line)
10:17<TrueBrain>Zuu: I can't reproduce it
10:17<TrueBrain>Zuu: you had something else yesterday? (I only remember you were very unsure it was something :p)
10:17<TrueBrain>bbl, need to buy something for myself to eat in a moment :)
10:19<Ailure>[16:50] <maryy_> Hello..foryou.. AN INVITATION TO THE TRUTH click please (choose language please)
10:19<Ailure>Jesus again
10:19<@peter1138>stop spamming ailure ;p
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10:20<Ailure>It's probably a spambot, but I kinda imagine a religous nut going into various IRC channels and doing that
10:21<@peter1138>seriously, there is no point replicating it here
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10:51<Zuu>TrueBrain: I wrote: Is there a reson why IsValidTile no longer works if the argument is equal to null? It simplifies many if-statements if the IsValid..-functions accept null as argument 1. (They should ofcourse return false if null is sent as argument.)
10:52<Zuu>TrueBrain: But I now beleve that it is related to Squirrel and not something OpenTTD changed since last week or so.
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10:57<TrueBrain>it wants an integer yes, a NULL isn't an integer :)
11:04<Zuu>It worked before..
11:04<@peter1138>before the moon turned to cheese?
11:05<Zuu>It was a hell to find all places where a null where sent and an integer was excepted.
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11:05<Zuu>But most are probably found and I've posted Clueless on the forums now :)
11:06<Zuu>The 1350 lines of code :)
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11:07<TrueBrain>Zuu: we increased type-checking indeed :)
11:07<Zuu>peter1138: It worked in march. :)
11:08<Zuu>TrueBrain: You made me check all my tile-variables for null before sending them to an API-function :)
11:08<TrueBrain>and so it should :)
11:09<Zuu>You moved the ugly code from your board to my borad. :)
11:09<TrueBrain>in fact, it wasn't ugly code on our end. It was just sloppy, as you could even give a string
11:09<TrueBrain>that gave nice results :p
11:10<Zuu>But I think IsValidTile(null) should not crash the script, null is not a valid tile, therefor return false, not crash :p
11:11<TrueBrain>and what should IsValidTile("blabla") return?
11:11<TrueBrain>and IsValidTile(0x123)? (and I really mean a pointer here)
11:11<Zuu>if "blabla" is not a valid tile, which is obviously isn't => false.
11:12<TrueBrain>short to say: it has nothing to do with IsValidTile, but that the param is invalid: it expects an integer :)
11:12<Eddi|zuHause3>and is "3rd from the left and 5th from the top" a valid tile?
11:12<TrueBrain>use SQ typecasting ;)
11:12<Zuu>null.tointeger() :)
11:12<Eddi|zuHause3>but, the "dbg" message should probably return a line number
11:13<TrueBrain>that would be useful indeed
11:13<Zuu>Not just useful, much useful! :)
11:13<TrueBrain>even more: it should be done
11:13<TrueBrain>but SQ doesn't seem to allow it
11:13<Zuu>Compare 1 line with 1350 lines to look at ;)
11:14<Zuu>In debug-mode OTTD could remember which line SQ is on, and print this line-number when script crashes.
11:14<Eddi|zuHause3>i assume that's an issue with the interpreter, not with the language
11:14<TrueBrain>not possible: scripts are compiled
11:15<Zuu>There is a callback that is called on every line of code.
11:15<TrueBrain>after compiling, you have no idea where in the script you are (line-wise)
11:15<Eddi|zuHause3>the c compiler can handle that, also
11:15<TrueBrain>that is called symbols
11:15<TrueBrain>maybe SQ can handle it, but I didn't find it yet
11:16<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause3: but is the C compiler 5000 lines?
11:19<Zuu>(the debug callback of SQ)
11:19<Eddi|zuHause3>i don't believe keeping line number information adds a lot of lines, in a properly designed compiler
11:19<@Rubidium>no, but you are comparing notepad with gvim
11:19<Eddi|zuHause3>but i don't really know anything about SQ
11:19<TrueBrain>Zuu: you see how tricky it is to add that information :)
11:19<TrueBrain>but I will work on it :)
11:20<Eddi|zuHause3>Rubidium: yeah, i compare the 'search' function of notepad with the 'search' function of gvim
11:20<Eddi|zuHause3>it's a very basic feature...
11:20<Eddi|zuHause3>at least it should be
11:21<@Rubidium>well, vim has line numbers before the text, notepad hasn't
11:21<Eddi|zuHause3>hm, i have not used notepad that much :)
11:22<Eddi|zuHause3>let's not take that discussion any deeper :)
11:22<@Rubidium>TrueBrain: what about adding the line number information only on debug builds?
11:23<@Rubidium>as it looks like quite some waste of processor power
11:23<@Rubidium>when you use the debug interface ofcourse
11:26<TrueBrain>Rubidium: sounds like a plan
11:27<@Rubidium>or... allow the AI to turn it on
11:29<TrueBrain>or both :) Only in debug-builds and when AI turned on :p
11:29<TrueBrain>but first, let's try to get it to work at all :)
11:29<TrueBrain>as you could enable the debug-hook in SQ too
11:30<TrueBrain>(no real need for C code)
11:31<Zuu>Hm.. and for the viewing pleasure: lots of buses on a road:
11:32<TrueBrain>hehe :)
11:32<TrueBrain>I always liked that :)
11:32<TrueBrain>Zuu: so you found out to reuse existing road? :)
11:32<Zuu>Sortof, I made it scan deeper for an extension point of the city-network so it eventually might find the other city. :)
11:33<Zuu>The AreRoadTilesConnected-function helps alot. :)
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11:34<Zuu>Else it would not be secure to try to reuse road.
11:36<@peter1138>rainbow buses
11:36<Eddi|zuHause3>how far are we away from "generic road traffic"?
11:37<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause3: if you start writing it, we'll have started it
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11:38<@peter1138>Zuu: is your new main page test complete then?
11:39<Zuu>peter1138: It's not only mine, and I've not looked at it today.
11:39<TrueBrain>ah, found a nicer way to print SQ stuff :)
11:40<Zuu>I don't like some of the icons, but maybe you should copy over the current new Main Page, and let the copy continue to fix some better icons.
11:41<Zuu>aka copy over what have been done and let the New_Main_Page_test-page stay so that people can enchance the icons.
11:43<Zuu>Other than the icons I've made I don't know if permision is granted to use the other ones. The person who uploaded some of the other icons have not specified any license for those icons.
11:43<hylje>gone are the days you could assume stuff was public domain?
11:45<Eddi|zuHause3>copyright is always with the author, except explicitely stated otherwise
11:45<TrueBrain>dbg: [misc] Your script made an error: the index 'a' does not exist
11:45<TrueBrain>*FUNCTION [Start()] ai/regression/main.nut line [380]
11:45<TrueBrain>[this] INSTANCE
11:45<TrueBrain>Good enough Zuu? :)
11:46<Zuu>TrueBrain: Looks sweet
11:48<CIA-2>OpenTTD: truelight * r9592 /3rdparty/squirrel/include/squirrel.h: [Squirrel] -Add: added scvfprintf
11:48<CIA-2>OpenTTD: truelight * r9593 /branches/noai/src/ (squirrel.cpp squirrel.hpp): [NoAI] -Add: on runtime-error, print the complete stack, so the user can see where it went wrong
11:48<TrueBrain>tada! :)
11:49<TrueBrain>there was a function to print the stack :)
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11:49<TrueBrain>so it should now show you all the information you can ever want/need/feel like needing :)
11:49<Zuu>TrueBrain: Nice :)
11:49<TrueBrain>let me know if it is useful
11:49<TrueBrain>I personally don't like the layout, but that we might fix later on :)
11:49<TrueBrain>(CAPSLOCK SOUNDS SO UGLY :p)
11:50<Zuu>Yea, the layout is not so nice, but way better than no line-number I'd say.
11:50<TrueBrain>true true :)
11:50<Zuu>At some point it would be good to add the library function (or your own variant of it) to join in other .nut-files so not everything have to be in the same .nut-fil.
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11:53<Zuu>But it's not a big problem, just set some marks in Vim and you can jump around like a squirrel in you huge .nut-file :)
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12:03<TrueBrain>Zuu: wasn't it already possible to load an other .nut file? I know I looked into it
12:03<TrueBrain>just I can't remember the outcome :)
12:03<+glx>loadfile(path, [raiseerror]); should do it
12:04<TrueBrain>yeah, but there was a problem with that, SQ wise
12:04<Zuu>TrueBrain: I tried with a function I found in the docs (of squirrel) and it did not work, but that was when I started with SQ 2-3 weeks ago.
12:05<TrueBrain>I do remember it was kind of tricky
12:05<TrueBrain>both path-wise, as SQ-wise
12:06<TrueBrain>hmm, yes... most likely it will be that you have to define a class completely in one .nut
12:10<Zuu>Not a big problem, the reson for split things in seperate files would be to move away clases you don't want to look at such as my ScoreList-class which can be used as a sorted list.
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12:15<_Ben_>Hi, a quick question (aimed at forum moderators): Does the person who starts a topic have any right other than to request closure? I.e. can they ask people to post/not post in there, or post specific things in there?
12:16<Wolf01>on my forum the person who starts a topic can moderate it too, should be interesting also on other forums
12:17<Zuu>Wolf01: depends, I'm a member of a such comunity. There you often find threads where the thread starter have removed lots of posts.
12:18<Zuu>In some cases there is just a post left from the thread starter "Thanks for your help".
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12:19<@Rubidium>yup, it makes it really easy to post an idea and remove all the bad critique and then claim everybody likes it
12:19<_Ben_>hmm, never used a forum with such a thing, but then I don't use forums much
12:20<Wolf01>i don't remember if they can delete posts, i know they can close the thread and move it in another section
12:20<Wolf01>let me see
12:21<Eddi|zuHause3>i would not agree with such a policy
12:22<_Ben_>giving the topic starter the ability to lock it would seem ok, but the other things seem a bad idea, unless there is some record of what was removed, like a wiki
12:22<Eddi|zuHause3>a thread starter could ask a moderator to have a closer look at certain things, but not more
12:22<Wolf01>ok, is fully customizable, i have "close/remove/delete own topic", but i can enable "remove/edit posts on own topic"
12:24<Wolf01>i would like to have edit and delete poll on own topic options
12:25<Eddi|zuHause3>"edit poll" is like the worst invention ever :p
12:25<_Ben_>editing a poll can't be good
12:25<blathijs>"Edit election results"
12:26<Wolf01>not edit the poll results, but add or remove poll's entries
12:26<_Ben_>changing the question, and options, would in effect change the results
12:26<blathijs>Even when just adding an option
12:26<Wolf01>maybe the poll will be reset every time you change it
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12:27<blathijs>Wolf01: That's pretty annoying for the people answering the poll, too
12:27<Wolf01>or at least remove the poll so you have to rewrite it all
12:27<blathijs>Just no edit option is fine, it makes people think about what they post
12:27<blathijs>and punish them if they do not :-P
12:27<@peter1138>istr a ttd vs openttd poll
12:28<@peter1138>where ttdpatch players assume ttd == ttd + ttdpatch
12:28<@peter1138>never mind that it was a stupid poll in the first place
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13:03<bubersson>Hi, I think The new main page is not ready to be the real main page. Maybe the colours could be different than now. It was the first color a wrote in hex ;)
13:03<hylje>what are you talking boot
13:04<SpComb>/boot is best kept on the same partition as /
13:04<hylje>yeah, exactly
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13:05<bubersson>it was mainly aimed for zuu, he did some changes to the new main page test (And it looks almost great now)
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13:23<@peter1138>bubersson: well, hurry it up then ;p
13:26<bubersson>but... well... my mother is trying to kill me with her broken broom, which I've broke like ten minutes ago...
13:26<bubersson>so don't have much time...
13:30<bubersson>heh :D she's yelling at me to stop writing about her, but fortunately she's even worse in english than me... :)
13:30<bubersson>Have to gooo... bye
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13:33<blathijs>jordi: Ah, now I get my confusion about you uploading 0.5.1-rc2. You didn't, but aptitude show gave me my locally built and installed openttd version number :-)
13:35<blathijs>I wonder if openttd will correctly run on all debian archs
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13:36<blathijs>So far, it has been succesfully built on alpha amd64 hppa i386 ia64 mips mipsel powerpc s390 sparc
13:38<Noldo>blathijs: so it might get distributed with debian?
13:40<TrueBrain>mipsel? Lol :)
13:40<TrueBrain>Then I can finally run a server on my router! :)
13:40<TrueBrain>or was it mips?
13:40<TrueBrain>what is the difference anyway ?:p
13:40<TrueBrain>blathijs: it almost sounds like the CF with his silly targets :) Don't you just love it :)
13:43<blathijs>Noldo: It will
13:43<Noldo>blathijs: in contrib?
13:44<blathijs>oeh, nice
13:44<blathijs>Most archs got compiled yesterday
13:45<blathijs>So I just aptitude installed 0.5.0 :-D
13:45<blathijs>Get:1 sid/contrib openttd 0.5.0-2 [1931kB]
13:50<Zuu>Hmm.. bubersson was here.. (I'm working with my tax-papers, yay! :) )
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14:25<Eddi|zuHause3><SpComb> /boot is best kept on the same partition as / <- strange, i had the exact opposite impression... e.g. when the computer did not shut down correctly, grub, the kernel and initrd were extremely slow with loading before "fsck" was run on the root partition
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14:40<Wolf01>should be possible to use squirrel to code pathfinders?
14:46<Eddi|zuHause3>is it also possible to call YAPF from squirrel?
14:46<Eddi|zuHause3>possibly with finetuned penalties?
14:46<TrueBrain>currently that will be very useless
14:47<TrueBrain>the same as you can't call it from C++ just like that :)
14:47<TrueBrain>it isn't built to do pathfinding on this level
14:47<Eddi|zuHause3>no, of course not "just like that"
14:52<Wolf01>"matching file not found (compatible grf loaded)" i updated a grf to a new version, there are problems with this?
14:52<+glx>the md5 is different
14:52<Wolf01>that's right
14:53<@Rubidium>there might be problems when internal indices of the grf are changed
14:53<CIA-2>OpenTTD: truelight * r9594 /branches/noai/src/ (squirrel.cpp squirrel_std.cpp squirrel_std.hpp):
14:53<CIA-2>OpenTTD: [NoAI] -Add: added 'require()' for Squirrel, which allows you to include other files in your .nut
14:53<CIA-2>OpenTTD: -Note: it always includes the file on the ROOT-level, no matter where you include it
14:53<CIA-2>OpenTTD: -Note: the filename is relative from the script you call it from (absolute filenames simply aren't allowed / possible)
14:53<CIA-2>OpenTTD: -Note: avoid including too many files on 'root-level', rather do it in Start() or where you need it.
14:53<SpComb>ooh, nuts
14:54<Wolf01>the only way to fix it is to disable and anable it again?
14:54<TrueBrain>Zuu: there you go :)
14:55<@Rubidium>Wolf01: no, it usually is ok, but sometimes an author of a GRF can change indices of vehicles and such, so the game will have the wrong vehicles. Disabling and enabling it won't solve that problem. You can only start a new game in that case.
14:55<Wolf01>oh ok
14:55<@Rubidium>However, you should blame the GRF author and not us for that.
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14:56<@peter1138>solution is to keep multiple versions around
14:56<@peter1138>and select the newer version for new games...
14:56<Wolf01>eheh, its the fixed TTRSv3 which fixes the bridges on OTTD :P
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15:03<CIA-2>OpenTTD: peter1138 * r9595 /trunk/src/main_gui.cpp: -Fix (r9563): Transparency hotkeys didn't work
15:07<Zuu>TrueBrain: Nice, though "root-level" is code-wise, not file-wise?
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15:08<Wolf01>thank you peter1138 :)
15:08<Zuu>First you say things are always included in ROOT-level and then that one should avoid to include things at root-level... ??
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15:09<TrueBrain>Zuu: not in functions or classes
15:10<@Rubidium>it always includes stuff as if it were on the 'root'-level (i.e. global scope) and not in the scope of classes/functions. You shouldn't be using require() on root level because that slows down starting OpenTTD as it then needs to load all files that are require()d at root level.
15:11<Zuu>Rubidium: Ok
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15:13<CIA-2>OpenTTD: peter1138 * r9596 /trunk/src/viewport.cpp: -Fix (r9563): (non-)transparency of station signs was confused with building transparency...
15:14<CIA-2>OpenTTD: peter1138 * r9597 /trunk/src/main_gui.cpp: -Codechange: Exclude sign transparency when toggling all options on/off
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15:15<Wolf01>why not apply directly the patch i provided?
15:15<@peter1138>because i don't like it
15:15<@peter1138>it's too big
15:15<@peter1138>and does too much ;p
15:15<@peter1138>and changes some things for the worse, codestyle wise
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15:16<Wolf01>do you plan to: 1) fix the transparent options gui and/or 2) apply the invisible houses code?
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15:18<@peter1138>1) fix? 2) maybe
15:21<Wolf01>uhm, you removed transparency memorization?
15:31<Wolf01>ehm, you didn't fix the station sign transparency
15:33<Wolf01>if you copy as i wrote, you should be able to fix it, don't improvise, you might do more work than the required
15:33<@peter1138>i don't currently see a problem with signs
15:34<Wolf01>if you make the sign transparent it works
15:34<Wolf01>but the sign should become transparent (with transparent background) when you make stations transparent
15:34<Wolf01>as the original game
15:35<Eddi|zuHause3>that sounds stupid
15:37<Ailure>seems like nightly is somewhat stable again
15:40<Wolf01>@@ -2501,6 +2497,3 @@
15:40<Wolf01> /* Clean old GUI values */
15:40<Wolf01> _last_built_railtype = RAILTYPE_RAIL;
15:40<Wolf01> }
15:40<Wolf01>-_-''' again...
15:40<Wolf01>stupid newlines, i'll never fix them
15:42<CIA-2>OpenTTD: peter1138 * r9598 /trunk/src/elrail.cpp: -Fix (r9563): brainfart? in elrail transparency. who knows...
15:42<@peter1138>and no, i'm still not apply the big patch
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15:51<CIA-2>OpenTTD: glx * r9599 /3rdparty/squirrel/include/squirrel.h: [Squirrel] -Add: added scstrdup, scstrrchr and scstrcat
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15:54<CIA-2>OpenTTD: glx * r9600 /branches/noai/src/squirrel_std.cpp: [NoAI] -Fix r9594: restore compilation with _UNICODE
15:54<Eddi|zuHause3>that must be at least the 5th time i read that (or similar) commit message :p
15:55<+glx>Eddi|zuHause3: logical :)
15:55<+glx>but this one was planned
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16:04<CIA-2>OpenTTD: peter1138 * r9601 /trunk/src/ (5 files): -Codechange: Store grf file reference in station spec, not just GRF ID
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16:29<Ailure>ah damnit
16:30<Ailure>I wish you could make tunnels a part of a station D:
16:30<Ailure>right now
16:32<@peter1138>do it then
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16:47<Sacro>blathijs: <a> is not allowed, use [url] instead
16:48<blathijs>ah, thanks
16:48<Ailure>[23:31] <peter1138> do it then
16:48<Ailure>you got me
16:48<blathijs>Sacro: I copied the text directly from the news page :-)
16:49<Sacro>blathijs: nice trick, but html in a forum can be dangerous
16:50<blathijs>yeah, I know
16:51<Sacro>blathijs: nicely fixed :)
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---Logclosed Thu Apr 12 00:00:06 2007