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#openttd IRC Logs for 2007-04-22

---Logopened Sun Apr 22 00:00:38 2007
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03:42<Wolf01>hello
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03:53<Wolf01>C:/msys/mingw/include/stdlib.h:362: error: expected unqualified-id before "int"
03:53<Wolf01>C:/msys/mingw/include/stdlib.h:362: error: expected `)' before "int"
03:53<Wolf01>make: *** [ObjectCollector.o] Error 1
03:53<Wolf01>there's a way to resolve this? (is not OTTD, but another project, but i don't know who ask :P)
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04:12<Rubidium>Wolf01: apparantly something has already defined something that is defined in stdlib.h I guess or something that should be defined isn't
04:12<Rubidium>and why wouldn't you know who to ask? You must have downloaded it from somewhere
04:13<Wolf01>from a friend, but he had the same problem :P
04:14<Wolf01>however thanks, seem that i/he resolved moving the #include <stdlib.h> at the top
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04:33<boekabart>does anyone understand what Leviath.NL means in this reply: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=577816#577816
04:33<boekabart>actually one above that one
04:41<peter1138>boekabart, i did an update, http://fuzzle.org/o/deepwater.diff
04:41<peter1138>it fixes a problem with making flooded vehicles crash
04:41<peter1138>still has the problem of ships being drawn at 0
04:42<peter1138>oh
04:43<peter1138>i left the transparency stuff in :/
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05:09<boekabart>transparency stuff?
05:10|-|Nigel_ changed nick to Nigel
05:14<boekabart>peter1138: what transparency stuff?
05:14<boekabart>i see some more changes: sealevel as patch setting (OK!)
05:16<boekabart>huh? you left the tile-0 raising to change sea level in - but doesn't raise sea level anymore?
05:20<peter1138>well, maybe :P
05:21<peter1138>good point :p
05:21<peter1138>besides, i didn't say it was finished ;)
05:23[~]peter1138 reverts that bit
05:23<Thomas[NL]>will these town-classifications be used just for the "Peter1138/Towngrowth Challenge" or will they also go into trunk?
05:24<peter1138>Thomas[NL], i'd like to get the whole thing into trunk, optional of course
05:24<Thomas[NL]>great! looks very cool
05:24<peter1138>some bits clearly don't actually affect game play, and they can be done either way
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05:29<yeti_>hi guys :) what does "allow more realistically sized catchment areas" (in the "patches" menu) mean? larger or smaller catchment areas?
05:30<Eddi|zuHause>it reduces the catchment area of bus and lorry stations, and increases the catchment area of large airports
05:30<yeti_>ah, thanks :) also, is there a way to enable building while game is paused?
05:30<Eddi|zuHause>check the "show catchment area" button in the station building
05:30<Eddi|zuHause>yes, ctrl+alt(+win)+c
05:31<Wolf01>nobody installed successfully an svn server under windows xp?
05:32<Eddi|zuHause>tortoise should be able to do that...
05:32<Wolf01>i need to use it as a service and to access it remotely
05:34<peter1138>find a unix box :D
05:34<Wolf01>http://subversion.open.collab.net/articles/svnserve-service.htm i'm trying but i can't install succesfully the service
05:34<Wolf01>i can do this with cygwin
05:36<Eddi|zuHause>and tortoise cannot run as service?
05:39<Thomas[NL]>I found a little bug in the latest trunk, in the station windows, the little train road-vehicle, ship and aircraft icons are not visible
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05:40<Wolf01>maybe i can't start the service because THERE IS ALREADY TORTOISE!!!! if it's so, i need only to access the svn remotely, because i can access the repository locally, but not from another computer via lan and internet
05:40<Thomas[NL]>also arrow up is gone on the scroll bar
05:41<Thomas[NL]>this is for all windows
05:41<Wolf01>no, there isn't a tortoise svn service -_-'''
05:41<peter1138>works for me
05:45<Rubidium>Wolf01: just run apache with mod_svn
05:45<Thomas[NL]>peter1138, my problem or the svn server?
05:45<peter1138>your problem
05:45<hylje>:o
05:46<Thomas[NL]>strange :/
05:47<Wolf01>Rubidium, i have an old version of apache (1.something) and i want to avoid to break my website/forum to use svn, i need only to access via svn://
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05:47<Thomas[NL]>you are right, my fontrenew grf was the problem
05:54<Rubidium>Wolf01: then you have to run it at another port I guess
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06:01<Wolf01>Rubidium: starting the svnserve manually, when i chechout it says something like "persistent refuse from the destination computer"
06:01<Wolf01>*check
06:02<Rubidium>kill the firewall
06:02<Rubidium>or puncture a hole in it
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06:08<Wolf01>mmm is not the firewall
06:09<Rubidium>well, it gets the reject signal from something and it sounds like you've tried to translate some italian? error message back to english.
06:09<Wolf01>yeah
06:10<HMage>maybe Wolf01's computer is behind some kind of NAT
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06:11<Wolf01>i'm trying locally, so the NAT shouldn't be the problem
06:11<Wolf01>i hate when there isn't an automathic way to install something...
06:12<Wolf01>is a miracle that i installed succesfully a ssh server, but with the svn server is another thing
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06:14<Rubidium>Windows (non-server) isn't quite the OS to run those services on
06:17<Wolf01>i will switch to linux when i have enough time
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06:44<Wolf01>it works it works!
06:46<Sacro>zomg
06:47<Rubidium>see how fast you can install linux and make it working ;)
06:47<Wolf01>ok, now some autentication is required, i don't want that every guy in internet can commit on my server
06:48<Wolf01>that's not a problem, i have some virtual machines ready :P
06:48<Wolf01>but i succesfully installed the svn server
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07:01<Alltaken>hows it all going everyone
07:04<Morphy>hi Alltaken
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08:03<boekabart>Wolf01: I have SVNSERVE running as service on XP, just followed the instructions basically
08:03<boekabart>but i see not that you have it working
08:04<Wolf01>now i'm trying to set the authorizations, every time i try i get authorization failed on checkout, if i use no authorizations i can checkout but not commit
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08:11<Bulb>Hello Folks,
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08:11<Bulb>I have just downloaded most recent trunk from subversion and built it.
08:12<Bulb>And want to try out the new cargos/new industries feature.
08:12<peter1138>good luck
08:12<peter1138>what with there being no new industries feature
08:12<Bulb>However, the pb_ukrsi.grf (UK Renewal Industries) tells me I have to turn it on.
08:13<Bulb>Ah, I see. It's only the newcargos, but no new industries.
08:13<Bulb>Now how can I try out newcargos without newindustries? Do you know which newgrf set has it?
08:14<peter1138>well you can't
08:14<peter1138>becuase without the industry support nothing will produce the cargo
08:15<Bulb>Hm :-(
08:15<Bulb>A few more cargos would make it more fun.
08:16<Bulb>By the way, peter1138, can you make a small fix?
08:16<Bulb>When Celestar implemented the fast aircraft, he (or someone else) implemented reading the respective patch variable.
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08:17<Bulb>He however forgot to set the respective bit in patch features, so Aviator Aricraft set won't read that variable anyway.
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08:30<neli>how to make a station with >5 platforms more efficient ?
08:30<neli>I have 5 now, but trains are never waiting for a free platform, they're always busy with entering
08:31<Eddi|zuHause>that does not make any sense
08:31<Bulb>neli, do you use presignals?
08:31<neli>of course
08:32<neli>it takes time for a train to accelerate and enter a platform
08:32<Bulb>neli: And they are still waiting on a busy signal, rather than going to the free one?
08:32<neli>in this time, another train has left the station
08:32<hylje>neli: have several distinct entries
08:32<neli>so there is no use in adding another platform (have 5 now)
08:32<hylje>neli: so there >1 signal block allowing entry
08:32<hylje>+is
08:32<neli>I have 3 entries
08:33<neli>I think this is causing delay, because trains are waiting at each entry point, having to accelerate etc.
08:33<hylje>when you got enough platforms they dont have to wait
08:33<Wolf01>make a ring where trains can enter and continue to run, when a platform frees the train enter it without stopping
08:33<Bulb>neli: You might want to have prefered platforms for each entry.
08:34<neli>it would be more efficient if they could run into the station while coming
08:34<hylje>give us screenshots
08:34<neli>Wolf01: that's my point, there is always a platform free already
08:34<Wolf01>once i made a LHC-like station -> http://lhc-injection-test.web.cern.ch/lhc-injection-test/images/sps-lhc-outline-with-rad_gif_1.gif :P
08:35<neli>Large Hydron Collider ?
08:35<Eddi|zuHause>Hadron, not Hydron
08:35<Wolf01>yes
08:36<Wolf01>with maglevs :D
08:36<Bulb>neli: Split the station to blocks. Each entry goes to one block. Between the blocks, put combo (entry+exit) presignals.
08:36<neli>Bulb: the input is too random for that to work efficiently
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08:37<neli>(the arrival of trains at the entry points)
08:37<neli>((actually, the distribution of arrival))
08:37<neli>http://neli.hopto.org:3980/~micha/screenshots/openttd/neli-nanningville.png
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08:38<hylje>one block for entry and exit
08:38<hylje>thus one train can enter at a time
08:38<hylje>and exit
08:39<peter1138>pbs! :D
08:39<neli>peter1138: yes it's crying for it
08:39<Eddi|zuHause>i had a screenshot of a multi-block station entrance once, but i cannot find it
08:39<hylje>multiblocking that station would involve some town conditioning
08:40<Wolf01>http://wolf01.game-host.org/OTTD_related/Green.png
08:40<Bulb>Ad pbs: Is there pbs available in some branch?
08:40<Wolf01>Green & Co. and the company color is pink -_-'''
08:40<neli>hylje: the mountain in the top right is a bit problematic
08:41<hylje>yes
08:42<Cipri>Wolf01: What grf are those towns from?
08:42<Wolf01>TTRSv3 and stolentrees by sac (i have invisible trees but they are)
08:43<neli>ideally the entry of the station is at least 2 trains long
08:43<Wolf01>oh and newwater
08:43<neli>there is no way to fit that in here
08:44<neli>can someone redesign signals to be placed on tile edges instead of on the tiles itself ? :)
08:44<neli>that would make a lot of things sooo much easie
08:45<neli>+R
08:45<Wolf01>my should fit, if you reduce drastically the length of a train to, i say, loco+1 wagon and you disable "forbid 90° turns" to reduce the junction space
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08:53<Bulb>Folks, is there anyone willing - and being able - to apply a quick one-line bugfix in trunk?
08:53<Bulb>I'll create a bug report otherwise, but it's really sooo trivial.
08:53<Wolf01>yes there are a lot of people here
08:53<Bulb>Here it goes:
08:53<Bulb>diff --git a/src/newgrf.cpp b/src/newgrf.cpp
08:53<Bulb>index 4920ca3..f40325b 100644
08:53<Bulb>--- a/src/newgrf.cpp
08:53<Bulb>+++ b/src/newgrf.cpp
08:53<Bulb>@@ -4126,7 +4126,7 @@ static void InitializeGRFSpecial()
08:54<Bulb> | (0 << 0x0C) // newagerating
08:54<Bulb> | ((_patches.build_on_slopes ? 1 : 0) << 0x0D) // buildonslopes
08:54<Bulb> | ((_patches.full_load_any ? 1 : 0) << 0x0E) // fullloadany
08:54<Bulb>- | (0 << 0x0F) // planespeed
08:54<Bulb>+ | (1 << 0x0F) // planespeed
08:54<Bulb> | (0 << 0x10) // moreindustriesperclimate - obsolete
08:54<Bulb> | (0 << 0x11) // moretoylandfeatures
08:54<Bulb> | (1 << 0x12) // newstations
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08:55<Wolf01>maybe a paste in a pastebin is better
08:55<Bulb>Yes...
08:55<Wolf01>http://paste.openttd.org/
08:56<neli>Wolf01: hmm that doesn't really work either
08:56<Wolf01>why not?
08:56<neli>because if only one platform is free all entries will be green
08:57<neli>two trains can enter simultaneously
08:57<Wolf01>no
08:58<neli>"no" :)
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08:59<Bulb>Ok. Pasted the diff to http://paste.openttd.org/52
08:59<Bulb>(Note it is a diff -p1 patch -- I checked out with git-svn)
09:01<neli>Wolf01: look: http://neli.hopto.org:3980/~micha/screenshots/openttd/neli-nanningville-wolf-bug.png
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09:02<Bulb>Add the patch: The GetPatchVariable will correctly return 4 for the 0x10 variable (planespeed factor), but the newgrfs won't read that without the bit in patch features.
09:03<Wolf01>neli, let me try
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09:05<neli>http://neli.hopto.org:3980/~micha/screenshots/openttd/neli-nanningville-wolf-bug-hl.png
09:05<neli>see, the second platform becomes free
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09:05<neli>now there are two trains entering at once
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09:06<neli>the right train sees all signals red, and therefore chooses to go the light red line
09:06<neli>originally it wanted to go the peach line, I think
09:07<neli>or: (1) my signalling is wrong (2) it's a bug in openttd
09:08<Rubidium>well, it actually does exactly what it's supposed to do
09:08<neli>which is ? :)
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09:09<neli>seems to me the exclusivity principle is broken when using pre/exit signals
09:09<Rubidium>the red train enters the pre-signal block because the second (from top) platform is free and his first signal block is free, the grain train enters too because the second platform is free and his first signal block is free. Once the grain train enters, the red train cannot go to that platform anymore and it goes to the closest platform
09:10<Rubidium>neli: what you assume is PBS, which this isn't
09:11<neli>as soon as the grain train enters the signal block, the pre/exit signal goes to red also, so the red train should keep waiting
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09:11<neli>or the other way around
09:11<Rubidium>neli: the red train enters the signal block first
09:12<Rubidium>the entrance signal becomes green if at least one of the 'exit' (including combo) signals is green.
09:12<Wolf01>neli, try using 2 way signals in front of stations
09:12<Rubidium>Wolf01: that doesn't solve his problem
09:12<neli>Rubidium: ah, you're right
09:13<neli>the grain train can always enter
09:14<Rubidium>precisely
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09:27<neli>woohohoo major deadlock
09:27<Wolf01>ok, this layout works well with only 2 entrances
09:29<neli>the entrances have to be directly connected
09:29<neli>and then the parallellism is gone
09:30<Wolf01>2 parallel entrances with a combo presignal in the middle and all works for me, with 3 entrances i got 2 deadlocks and about 10 locks
09:31<neli>wow deadlock solved itself after all
09:31<Wolf01>when a train stopped in the middle
09:31<Eddi|zuHause>neli: just completely remove that 2 way track, let the trains from the left only enter the left three platforms, the trains from the right only the right two (mabe make three) platforms
09:31<Eddi|zuHause>and the trains from the middle may chose whichever is free
09:32<Eddi|zuHause>and possibly invest in another parallel exit track as well
09:32<neli>left three tracks is too little
09:33<Eddi|zuHause>then make a 4+2 station, or something
09:34<neli>if the middle can choose, then all are connected
09:35<Eddi|zuHause>no, you already have the middle choose between two one-way signals, just remove that additional track
09:35<Eddi|zuHause>the track where you painted the peach arrow
09:35<neli>then the problem I showed is still possible
09:36<neli>but, from the middle track
09:36<Eddi|zuHause>yes, in a limited way, but it will not block the other entrances
09:37<Eddi|zuHause>you could also add presignal priority magic so the middle train will not choose the left track if a train is waiting on the left entrance, but you definitely lack space for that
09:38<Eddi|zuHause>hm, i need to find that screenshot...
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09:56<Eddi|zuHause>not exactly the one i meant, but it might do the trick: www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Johannes%20Transport,%204.%20Jun%201965.png
09:57<Eddi|zuHause>(not 100% uploaded yet)
09:57<yeti_>what do you do against the literally hundreds of "production at xyz increased" messages each month?
09:57<Eddi|zuHause>turn them off
09:58<yeti_>where exactly? haven't found the option yet :(
10:01<Eddi|zuHause>the second icon from the right
10:01<Eddi|zuHause>is a newspaper icon
10:01<Eddi|zuHause>click and hold that
10:01<yeti_>ah! thanks :))
10:07<neli>Eddi|zuHause: what does it show ? :)
10:07<Eddi|zuHause>a station entrance
10:07<Eddi|zuHause>with several signal blocks
10:07<Eddi|zuHause>so arriving trains rarely block each other
10:08<neli>you don't need presignals ?
10:08<neli>:)
10:09<Eddi|zuHause>no, i don't :)
10:09<Eddi|zuHause>that's the cool thing, it works :)
10:09<rane_>one problem i always face when building a rail network is that it gets immensely crowded sooner or later. is there any easy way to counter that?
10:10<rane_>i usually build one track for each direction
10:10<neli>there are ways, but that's the challenge of the game :)
10:12<Eddi|zuHause>there are two approaches for that: a) don't rely on a "backbone" and route the trains over several different doubletrack lines, or b) make that "backbone" line more than double track
10:14<neli>it's rare for the backbone to be the bottleneck, for me
10:14<neli>except when climbing
10:16<neli>otoh, maybe my trains are too short or I have too few of them yet
10:17<yeti_>are there presignals in openttd? i've seen them with ttdpatch
10:17<peter1138>yes
10:18<Eddi|zuHause>yes, just ctrl+click
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10:20<neli>rane_: btw, crowded is not a problem, locked is a problem :)
10:21<rane_>sure it is..
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10:24<rane_>http://kahiseva.ath.cx/b/Sutfingway%20Transport,%203rd%20Jun%201992.jpg
10:25<rane_>because of the trains joining the "backbone" the queue just grows
10:25<rane_>and i lose profit :(
10:26<hylje>1. trains
10:26<hylje>2. ???
10:26<hylje>3. PROFIT!!
10:27<hylje>rane_: you can build more than two rails next to each other
10:27<hylje>rane_: like 3 or usually 4
10:28<hylje>just have the joins have a choice between the two rails
10:28<rane_>hylje: i know but at this point it's pretty err.. time consuming
10:28<hylje>just build it somewhere else
10:28<neli>rane_: you should climb, then have a long strip, then merge
10:28<hylje>capacity is something that you can't get magically more
10:28<neli>not merge direct after climb
10:28<hylje>and besides, you have 2*45 merges
10:28<hylje>which are kind of slow
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10:32<Eddi|zuHause>dbg: [misc] German Townnames are buggy (-2049118791) <- ???
10:32<Eddi|zuHause>(ancient TTD(P) savegame)
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10:38<peter1138>hmm?
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10:39<peter1138>i guess it just means you'll end up with different names
10:40<Eddi|zuHause>hm, i cannot load TTD savegames with -g
10:41<Eddi|zuHause>only from the load game window
10:42<Eddi|zuHause>it says:
10:42<Eddi|zuHause>dbg: [sl] Unknown savegame type, trying to load it as the buggy format
10:42<Eddi|zuHause>Load game failed: inconsistent size.
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11:00<Desolator>BUG: The finances screen is empty - AGAIN!
11:01<Desolator>only happens when playing a scenario
11:01<Desolator>http://bugs.openttd.org/task/740
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14:06<CIA-2>OpenTTD: rubidium * r9713 /branches/noai/ (166 files in 14 dirs): [NoAI] -Sync with trunk (r9631:9712).
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14:28<JameiLei>!password
14:28<JameiLei>password
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14:29<hylje>waat
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16:19<Wolf01>night
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16:21<KraL>1kere vercek þanslý insan aranýyor
16:22<AiRBuS-A380>aynen
16:22<AiRBuS-A380>2 tane olsun ama
16:22<AiRBuS-A380>peter1138
16:22<AiRBuS-A380>naber lan
16:22<AiRBuS-A380>it
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16:23<peter1138>heh
16:25<ln->quick death to those not speaking english
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16:28<yeti_>good evening ladies and gentlemen :)
16:28<yeti_>which pathfinder should i use?
16:28<yeti_>"new global pathfinding"? YAPF? both?
16:31<Thomas[NL]>YAPF, it uses less CPU
16:33<+glx>and disable yapf and npf for ships
16:33<yeti_>i'm asking because i'm using YAPF at the moment, and there's a train that often reports being lost - but in fact it's not really lost, as it travels on a straight but very long track with no junctions at all
16:35<yeti_>and there was another train that would constantly take the wrong junction and never reach its destination, but it wasn't a very complex rail system in my opinion - i had to use a waypoint to solve that
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16:45<Thomas[NL]>why disable yapf and npf for ships?
16:45<+glx>they cause slowdowns
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16:48<Digitalfox[Home]>And what about yapf for road vehicles, it's the only one i have activated, does it really makes roadvehicles have a better way of finding stations?
16:49<Digitalfox[Home]>Is the original algorithm for road vehicles bad?
16:50<Eddi|zuHause2>Thomas[NL]: water has too many possible paths so the pathfinder gets very cpu intensive, for little effect
16:51<Eddi|zuHause2>Digitalfox[Home]: the original pathfinder did only search for a few tiles, and might not find the correct path if it involves long detours
16:51<Thomas[NL]>ok, learn something new every day :)
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16:52<Thomas[NL]>I off bye
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16:52<Eddi|zuHause2>those two points are related btw. :)
16:52<Digitalfox[Home]>So from a city with 50000 to another with 50000 using roadvehicles, yapf helps?
16:53<Digitalfox[Home]>I say a city with 50000, because it gets huge, so lot's of road
16:54<Eddi|zuHause2>Digitalfox[Home]: more like if you have 4 cities in a C shape, the road vehicle might take a completely wrong route initially, resulting in a dead end
16:54<Eddi|zuHause2>D-C
16:54<Eddi|zuHause2>|
16:54<Eddi|zuHause2>A-B
16:54<Eddi|zuHause2>if you want to go from A to C
16:54<Digitalfox[Home]>So just by conecting 2 cities and the orders only being A-B and B-A theres no need for yapf?
16:54<Eddi|zuHause2>the vehicle has to chose wether to take the road to D or B
16:55<Eddi|zuHause2>if it does not look far enough, it might chose the road to B
16:55<Eddi|zuHause2>where it cannot go on to C
16:55<Eddi|zuHause2>no, if the roads are rather straight, and no dead ends, it is probably fine
16:56<Digitalfox[Home]>I have someday, to try with and without yapf...
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16:57<Digitalfox[Home]>And does yapf with 400 road vehicles, use a lot of cpu or almost like original?
16:58<Eddi|zuHause2>Yapf was desinged with performance in mind, it should not be much more ressource intensive than the original pathfinder
16:58<Digitalfox[Home]>ok
16:59<Digitalfox[Home]>thanks for the info :)
16:59<Eddi|zuHause2>yapf really only has a problem with ships...
16:59<+glx>like all complete pathfinders
17:00<Digitalfox[Home]>yeah, i don't have it activated for ships, i only use it with road vehicles :)
17:01<Eddi|zuHause2>well, the model is just not fitting for very closely connected networks... it's for networks with long straight segments (like most train networks)
17:03<Eddi|zuHause2>you either have to artificially reduce the number of possible paths, or use a completely different approach for pathfinding
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---Logclosed Sun Apr 22 17:04:30 2007
---Logopened Sun Apr 22 17:04:33 2007
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17:25<Ailure>bah
17:25<Ailure>there's only really one feature I miss from mini-in
17:25<Ailure>the ability to set the max amount of trains at stations
17:26<Ailure>since it helps alot at preventing deadlock situation and made life easier with passenger stations D:
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17:39<Ailure>hmm
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17:40<Ailure>lots of disconnects
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18:28<Ihmemies>where the heck i can get newstations
18:32<Belugas_Gone>have you tried searcing in the forums?
18:32<Belugas_Gone>or on grfwalker?
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18:40<Ihmemies>i found it from http://www.ewetel.net/~michael.blunck/ttd/download.html :-o
18:40<Ihmemies>just hard to believe that last upd ate was 2 years ago
18:42<Eddi|zuHause2>afaik he is working on new stuff
18:42<Eddi|zuHause2>and "it is done when it's done"
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---Logclosed Mon Apr 23 00:00:43 2007