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#openttd IRC Logs for 2007-04-28

---Logopened Sat Apr 28 00:00:46 2007
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02:56[~]Wolf01 popups
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03:36<dihedral>anybody up for some ottd chat?
03:38<dihedral>let industries have an increase in production, even if they reach 32/40
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03:46<elmex>hmm, where do i bring good to usually?
03:47<elmex>ah, nevermind
03:50<dihedral>to cities
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03:52<[1]Chris>good morning
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04:24<Wolf01>are the depots the problem?
04:24<TrueBrain>no, the login to that page is
04:25<Wolf01>... doh
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04:42<elmex>yay, debian 64 has openttd
04:42<elmex>how could i eve miss this game
05:01<dihedral>in smooth econ.
05:01<dihedral>is there a reason why 35/40 T productions dont increase anymore?
05:03<Eddi|zuHause2>if you transport more than 70%, the chances of increasing are 1/3 and decreasing is 2/3, i believe
05:04<dihedral>this is during the cause of the entire game
05:04<dihedral>there should then be a chance of them reaching 117T or so
05:04<Noldo>btw what is the point in thet 70% limit?
05:05<Eddi|zuHause2>i believe the reasoning was that you "deplete" the industry
05:06<dihedral>so if you transport 90% will the chances of an increase rise?
05:06<Noldo>that mechanic would be ok for something like fishing or huntin where you shouldn't overfish or overhunt
05:07<Noldo>but there is only so much ore in the area of a mine
05:07<Noldo>it doesn't mate and reproduce
05:08<dihedral>that is why you dont see 5 ore mines next to eachother
05:09<Eddi|zuHause2>don't shout at me... i did not design this
05:09<dihedral>and who was shouting?
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05:14<RobertGrammig>I deliver wood directly to a sawmill but the lorrys wont sell it... do I need something else for the sawmill to work?
05:15<Eddi|zuHause2>are you sure the station accepts goods?
05:15<Eddi|zuHause2>er, wood
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05:21<RobertGrammig>no ok your right it is overlapping with the coverage area of the lorry station, but it actually did not display to accept wood
05:21<RobertGrammig>now its working ;)
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05:41<CIA-2>OpenTTD: truelight * r9731 /trunk/src/news_gui.cpp: -Fix [FS#677]: in news history, newlines weren't replaced with spaces, making it look ugly from time to time
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05:48<elmex>i'm really bad at difficulty medium :-(
05:52<Eddi|zuHause2>start with easy then ;)
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05:53<elmex>but thats too easy
05:53<elmex>with easy i was able to repay my loan and gain money like hay
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06:01<Ammller>Hello, I need some help for compiling ottd
06:01<Ammller>I'm using more than one revision of ottdc and also some patched
06:02<Ammller>Is it possible to compile directly in a spcial folder?
06:05<Rubidium>isn't it much easier to have multiple checkouts if you want to compile more than one revision and patched versions?
06:05<Ammller>every checkout needs 80 MB
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06:06<Ammller>the bin alone about 30 MB
06:07<Maedhros>actually, my openttd dir seems to be 219mb somehow
06:07<Rubidium>Maedhros: lots of stale svn data
06:08<Rubidium>Ammller: what versions are you trying to compile?
06:08<Ammller>possible to give a attribute with configure that BIN_DIR will change
06:08<elmex>wow, ok, long distances really pay ogg
06:08<Ammller>Rubidium: mostly actual nightlies
06:08<Ammller>with patches
06:09<Rubidium>Ammller: just copy the whole binary directory after compilation, otherwise evt. grf updates won't propagate properly
06:10<Ammller>yeah, I did it o
06:10<Ammller>than its easyier to keep their own co's for every version
06:11<Ammller>because I like to keep openttd.cfg and the grfs
06:13<Ammller>but to be clear, if I would change BIN_DIR in the makefile manually, that could get problems?
06:13<Rubidium>yes, because then you won't have the latest OTTD grfs
06:16<Ammller>ah, didn't realize that, bin isn't empty on checkout
06:16<Ammller>thx Rubidium
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06:27<elmex>astonishing how ineffective railroads are for short distances
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07:50<ln->earthquake in britain
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07:58<Eddi|zuHause2>we once had an earthquake here
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07:59<Eddi|zuHause2>it was overnight, i did not notice it, but the people nearer to the center did
07:59<nairan>nothing at munich
07:59<Eddi|zuHause2>no, Halle (Saale)
08:00<Eddi|zuHause2>a salt mine collapsed, afaik
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08:11<elmex>these giant-screenshots rock
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08:13<Eddi|zuHause2>not if you try to make a giant screenshot of a 2048x2048 map :p
08:15<neli>hehe I did once
08:15<neli>took couple of minutes, was 500MB orso ?
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08:28<elmex>the computer enemies are no real enemy, are they?
08:31<yeti_>well, they are because they're building really stupid railways that are in your way all the time :)
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08:32<nairan>the devs are doing some basic stuff for ai so ppls can programm new ais
08:33<nairan>but all is at developement
08:33<nairan>they work at several differnet stuff
08:33<elmex>hm, yep
08:34<yeti_>is openttd written from scratch or did TTD's developer give out his sources because it was so old, and the openttd devs improved it?
08:35<elmex>rewriting it from scratch must have been an awful amount of work
08:37<Rubidium>it's written without TTD's original source code
08:37<elmex>thats awesome :)
08:39<Rubidium>and TTD's been written in assembly IIRC
08:39<CIA-2>OpenTTD: truelight * r9732 /branches/noai/src/squirrel_class.hpp: [NoAI] -Fix: GCC 2.95 doesn't like SQConvert::Bla inside a template. Use 'using namespace' to avoid. This re-enables MorphOS target for NoAI branch.
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08:39<TrueBrain>it indeed is
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09:02<yeti__>cargo delivery is paid by distance - does openttd use the point-to-point direct distance or the number of tiles the train went through to calculate that?
09:03<Rubidium>Manhattan point (of original station)-to-point (of final destination station)
09:05<Eddi|zuHause2>distance between the station signs, to be exact
09:10<Wolf01>if i want to create
09:10<Wolf01>repos/proj/trunk and repos/proj/branch, i have to create 2 repositories?
09:11<Wolf01>(i'm talking server sided)
09:12<Maedhros>no, just make repos/proj, and trunk and branch can be directories within the repository
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09:13<Wolf01>i did so, put the authorizations but when i checkout it says "svnserve.conf option expected"
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09:30<Szandor>A suggestion about the website: should have the changelog css set to open, and use JavaScript to close it on page load
09:30<Szandor>that way, people with JS turned off can still see the changelog
09:35<TrueBrain>and what if people have CSS disabled?
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09:36<Szandor>then it would behave the same way it does now, i.e. show all the time
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09:45<Szandor>Also, if the starting html read "The list of changes for today's nightly is the following:", i.e. without the [hide changelog] span, non-JS people would never know what they were missing.
09:46<Szandor>(although that's a presentation thing, so not as important as the currently missing functionality)
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10:06<CIA-2>OpenTTD: maedhros * r9734 /trunk/src/ (5 files in 2 dirs): -Feature: Add an option to automatically pause when starting a new game.
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10:48<HMage> -- "Flyspray was unable to connect to the database. Check your settings in flyspray.conf.php"
10:48<HMage>something happening to the hosting?
10:52<TrueBrain>there you go HMage
10:52<HMage>TrueBrain: thank you
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11:42<TrueBrain>how about a chan song?
11:43<TrueBrain>doh, out of diskspace....
11:43<TrueBrain>checkout of 20GiB....
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11:52<TrueBrain>asking for a kick, most likely :p
11:52<dihedral>is it coincidence that the intercontinental airfield is 9/11 tiles?
11:52<TrueBrain>there is always something to find
11:54<dihedral>hey TrueBrain, is there a reason that production industries done increase after reaching a low (32/40T)
11:57<dihedral>if you right click to scroll around the map
11:57<dihedral>and while doing so press alt-tab
11:57<dihedral>to switch to another app
11:57<dihedral>and hit alt-tab again to come back to the game
11:57<TrueBrain>industries only have an upper and lwoer limit, there is no reason for any industry to not increase after any value
11:57<dihedral>it seems like ottd remembered the right click
11:58<dihedral>and moving the mouse (with no buttons clicked) will scroll the map
11:58<Maedhros>it probably does
11:58<TrueBrain>althought some industries never increase
11:58<dihedral>TrueBrain: seems like e.g. a forrest down at 32 or 35T will not increase ever again
11:58<TrueBrain>all about chance
11:58<dihedral>i have seen that with all industries down at that level
11:59<dihedral>never seen them come out of that hole again
11:59<dihedral>not even when transporting all there is
11:59<TrueBrain>industries don't care if you transport or not
11:59<TrueBrain>(okay, they do, but not much :p)
12:00<TrueBrain>/* If you transport > 60%, 66% chance we increas
12:00<TrueBrain>e, else 33% chance we increase */
12:00<TrueBrain>of course if it is different if you allow small economy changes
12:01<dihedral>> (okay, they do, but not much :p) < lol
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12:02<dihedral>i have smooth eco enabled, yes
12:02<TrueBrain>then some other rules apply :p
12:03<TrueBrain> if (CHANCE16I(20, 1024, r))
12:03<TrueBrain> new_prod -= ((RandomRange(50) + 10) * old_prod) >> 8;
12:03<TrueBrain> if (CHANCE16I(20 + (i->pct_transported[j] * 20 >> 8), 1024, r >> 16))
12:03<TrueBrain> new_prod += ((RandomRange(50) + 10) * old_prod) >> 8;
12:03<TrueBrain>you do the math :p
12:04<TrueBrain>(as soon as you transport anything, changes of an industry getting better with smooth economy is bigger than decreasing)
12:04<dihedral>just seems to never happen with the extreem lows
12:05<TrueBrain>dihedral: you are right, it can happen in fact, with very low values
12:05<TrueBrain>@calc (50 + 10 * 1) >> 8
12:05<DorpsGek>TrueBrain: Error: Something in there wasn't a valid number.
12:05<dihedral>it can happen in fact...
12:05<TrueBrain>hehe, shifting doesn't work :p
12:05<TrueBrain>@calc (50 + 10 * 1) / 256
12:05<DorpsGek>TrueBrain: 0.234375
12:05<Ailure>I wish industries were a little bit more dynamic than that
12:05<TrueBrain>@calc (50 + 10 * 5) / 256
12:05<DorpsGek>TrueBrain: 0.390625
12:05<TrueBrain>@calc (50 + 10 * 10) / 256
12:05<DorpsGek>TrueBrain: 0.5859375
12:05<TrueBrain>@calc (50 + 10 * 20) / 256
12:05<Ailure>Also it always bothered me that like
12:05<DorpsGek>TrueBrain: 0.9765625
12:05<Ailure>What happens to the cargo that isn't transported? ;)
12:05<TrueBrain>production values of < 20 never recover :p Hehe :)
12:06<TrueBrain>Ailure: flushed away!
12:06<Ailure>Thoose poor passengers
12:06<Ailure>After all, they're cargo too ;)
12:06<dihedral>TrueBrain: seems like production values <40 never increase
12:06<Cipri>I always love having several thousand passengers waiting on a bouy ^.^
12:06<dihedral>that is what it looks like in the game
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12:07<Ailure>Bouys are pretty much a dead neutral station
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12:07<Ailure>still I never tried doing that
12:07<TrueBrain>dihedral: I have no idea what the factor between ingame value and incode values are, incode is it around 20
12:07<dihedral>thank you :-)
12:08[~]Cipri wonders about /increasing/ cargo output. Is it true there's a golden zone to keep your "Transported %" in to increase thecargo produced?
12:08<dihedral>btw. loading the configfile after a game and before the new game on a dedicated server would be great
12:08<dihedral>that way one could make amendments for the next game
12:09<dihedral>ie change from tropical map to arctic
12:09<Cipri>Y'always hear peple say "Keep it between 50 and 66", or "60-80". But I couldn't find anythig about that in the wiki.
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12:10<TrueBrain>Cipri: as such actions aren't documented
12:10<TrueBrain>they are just side-effects of the algorithms used, and can (and do) change over time
12:11<TrueBrain>Cipri: but currently: keep above 60% of smooth economy is OFF... and when it is on, the higher the better ;)
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12:14<Cipri>Didn't you just say the same thing twice? ;)
12:14<TrueBrain>Nah, just summurizing
12:15<Cipri>In that las sentence. >60% /without/ SmoothEco, as high as possible /with/ SmoothEco
12:15<TrueBrain>yes. When smooth is off, it doesn't matter if iti s 61 or 99
12:15<TrueBrain>when it is on, it does
12:15<Cipri>Ah, cool :)
12:15<Sacro>!seen Celestar
12:15<_42_>Sacro, Celestar is on #openttd.tgp right now.
12:17<TrueBrain>@seen Celestar
12:17<DorpsGek>TrueBrain: Celestar was last seen in #openttd 1 week, 3 days, 6 hours, 13 minutes, and 45 seconds ago: <Celestar> @openttd 738
12:17<TrueBrain>Stupid _42_
12:18<_Ben_>hmm, having some difficulty finding out what the 256 colours are that can be used on sprites. Is it the same set of colours that I would have remaining if I saved a file to 256 colour from mspaint?
12:18<_Ben_>If not, is there a image anywhere that I could use to colour sample, does anyone know?
12:20<Eddi|zuHause2>_Ben_: try docs/ottd-colour-palette.gif
12:24<_Ben_>Eddi|zuHayse2: Thanks, thats exactly what I was looking for
12:24<_Ben_>Eddi|zuHause2* even, oops.
12:25<Eddi|zuHause2>that's what they invented the <tab>-completition for :)
12:26<TrueBrain>tab-what? :)
12:27<Eddi|zuHause2>what's wrong with the word?
12:27<TrueBrain>haha, it was a joke :p
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12:29<_Ben_>hmm, The gif is animated. For makeing sprites for the original scenario, wich of the frames shoudl I go by?
12:30<Eddi|zuHause2>the animated sprites are for water and stuff
12:32<_Ben_>Ok, now I'm pretty confused. I knew the water tiles appeared differently but used the same sprites, but I thourght that each frame in the animation (1 of 4?) had a seperate sprite still
12:33<Eddi|zuHause2>no, it is palette animation
12:34<Eddi|zuHause2>the same pallete index gets different real colours
12:35<Eddi|zuHause2>so all pixels with that palette index change appearence
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12:38<_Ben_>hmm, I just checked newwaterw_412 and it appears to have 4 sprites for 1 water tile. Is that because the colours change relative to the pallet, and also moved around relative to the tiles?
12:38<Eddi|zuHause2>i do not know about newwater
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12:44<Maedhros>newwater uses action 7s to choose which sprites to show based on the climate
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12:47<_Ben_>hmm, this is beyond me I think. I was going to try and make some sloping river sprites, and I've made some, but I first need to check all the colours are ok, and 2nd (it now seems) I need to do a hell of a lot more to them also
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12:50<_Ben_>and it would seem, unless I'm not understanding it correctly, that it would be inposible to have the slopeing tiles apear different shades, as the land does, since the colours are defined by the scenario rather than the sprite.
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12:54<Maedhros>i wouldn't use newwater as an example, personally ;)
12:55<Maedhros>it's designed to do something different, and since this hasn't been finished yet it can be changed to allow anything that's needed
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13:01<_Ben_>I can't seem to find the original sprites used for water. Are there any other grf's that I could look at to try to understand what I would need to do?
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13:05<Maedhros>the water and coast sprites are sprites 4061--4069 in trg1r.grf
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13:05<_Ben_>Maedhros: Cheers
13:05<Peakki>hi! how do i kick someone from my server?
13:06<TrueBrain>try 'kick' in console
13:08<Cipri>Hmm. is there a reason the Martian lanscape isn't supported?
13:09<Maedhros>it (mostly) works, here
13:10<Maedhros>the fact that openttd doesn't yet support newindustries means you still get toyland industries unfortunately
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13:13<Digitalfox[Home]>Maedhros: The "Start a game in pause" is really a nice feature :) Thanks..
13:13<Digitalfox[Home]>I always pause a game when it starts :)
13:14<Maedhros>yeah, i found i was doing it a lot too :)
13:15<Digitalfox[Home]>Are you working on other new feature?
13:16<Maedhros>not really; i've got too much work to do at the moment
13:17<_Ben_>ok, I think I understand this water now after a lot of staring. It just leaves me wondering. Is the 1 sprite that is in trg1r just that colour because that is windows pallet? but then the game translates it differently?
13:21<Maedhros>yes. some of the blue colours are magic colours which get palette cycled to give you the animation
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13:25<_Ben_>those colours (217-226) don't appear in the pallet in as a fixed colour it would seem. so it would not be posible to make a water tile fitting, but unanimated. right?
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13:33<Eddi|zuHause2>shading colours are not a good idea before 32bpp
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14:24<UndernotBuilder>will be an account system really lame-proof?
14:28<UndernotBuilder>so when a lamer creates an account for... well, laming, when he starts to.... lame his account is banned and because the email is already in use by the banned account he needs to create other email, thing which be prevented if we ban the ip / MAC addresses (for dynamics ip's)
14:29<Cipri>Can't ban macs
14:30<UndernotBuilder>why? that is possible on other mp games
14:31<valhalla1w>it's forgeable
14:31<Maedhros>they're easy to spoof, so there's no point
14:31|-|valhalla1w changed nick to valhallasw
14:31<valhallasw>a mac ban is always client side
14:32<UndernotBuilder>then why in other multiplayer games is possible?
14:32<Cipri>Servers can't see the mac address, they only get the IP
14:32<Cipri>CLosed source games?
14:32<valhallasw>UndernotBuilder: it doesn't work :p
14:32<Cipri>Sure, you could make it so that openttd transmits its mac address.
14:32<valhallasw>just spoof the mac address transmission
14:32<Sacro>a) spoof mac address using ifconfig
14:32<Cipri>What's to prevent someone from creating a patch that sends a random mac
14:32<Sacro>b) edit source
14:33<valhallasw>c) spoof mac address by changing tcp packets
14:33<UndernotBuilder>I thought that the mac address is inchangeable
14:33<valhallasw>(eg. changing the 'mac address'-data sent by openttd by sniffing-and-changing)
14:33<valhallasw>it isn't, and it is not checkable by the server
14:33<Sacro>UndernotBuilder: its kinda pointless in an open source game
14:33<UndernotBuilder>and if one edits the source he will desync/versionmismatched
14:33<Sacro>so you ban my mac address - AA:BB:CC:DD:EE:FF
14:34<valhallasw>UndernotBuilder: erm, not.
14:34<valhallasw>21:33 < Sacro> UndernotBuilder: its kinda pointless <-- fix.
14:34<Sacro>so i tell openttd to say mine is FF:DD:EE:CC:BB:AA
14:34<Sacro>you have no way of checking
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14:35<valhallasw>and even *if* you get a version mismatch... change your MAC with ifconfig
14:35<valhallasw>or hack your packet filter
14:35<Maedhros>desyncs only happen if the game state doesn't match
14:35<Maedhros>the mac address has nothing to do with the game state
14:35<valhallasw>or (insert 23 other ways of fooling the server)
14:35<Eddi|zuHause2><UndernotBuilder> and if one edits the source he will desync/versionmismatched <- you can as well change the version string
14:36<Eddi|zuHause2>and desync only happens if you change game code
14:36<Eddi|zuHause2>not some hypothetical mac transmission
14:36<UndernotBuilder>well, hacking the game is changing code
14:36<valhallasw>changing code == changing the way the game *works*
14:36<valhallasw>eg. trains that have different physics
14:37<valhallasw>or mines that have different production settings
14:37<valhallasw>not a *string* that is sent *once* to the server, without any *game* state information
14:37<Sacro>doesnt matter
14:37<Sacro>MAC is just plain hex
14:38<Cipri>Maybe we could contact Valve, and have openttd run through Steam.
14:38<UndernotBuilder>wrong window
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14:38<valhallasw>Cipri: since when did steam run on osx?
14:38<Sacro>its hardly likely to desync if you change it
14:38<Eddi|zuHause2>exactly, you can easily just send a random number instead of a MAC
14:38<Sacro>or os/2 or beos or GP2X or ... etc
14:38<Eddi|zuHause2>the only place where you can check MACs directly is in a LAN
14:39<Eddi|zuHause2>because you need a direct connection
14:40<Eddi|zuHause2>everything that goes beyond direct cable connection needs a higher level protocol (IP)
14:40<Sacro>mmm, could try using private/public keys
14:40<valhallasw>Eddi|zuHause2: everything that passes a router
14:40<Eddi|zuHause2>that's what i said
14:41<valhallasw>a switch is hardly a direct cable connection
14:55<elmex>heh, i'm already at difficulty hard
14:58<UndernotBuilder>well so leave the lamers to lame everything?
14:59<UndernotBuilder>well I will not consider laming inside gaming
15:00<TrueBrain>we can make payed accounts :p
15:00<UndernotBuilder>laming is too stupid to be considered a type of gaming
15:00<Maedhros>i'm loving the concept of "lame" being a verb, personally ;)
15:02<UndernotBuilder>well but some good considerations to enhance a bit the security system in ottd:
15:02<UndernotBuilder>1. ask for a password when company is created
15:02<UndernotBuilder>2. ask before someone conects to your company
15:03<UndernotBuilder>3. voting
15:03<TrueBrain>sounds like you have work to do! :)
15:03<Maedhros>2. what happens if you're not actually playing at the moment?
15:03<Eddi|zuHause2>valhallasw: no, a switch simulates ethernet, so it is transparent for MACs
15:03<Maedhros>3. waay to open to abuse
15:03<valhallasw>Eddi|zuHause2: hmyes
15:03<valhallasw>still not true direct cable :p
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15:04<UndernotBuilder>2. if someone joins your company and you are busy, the other will need to wait for your answer
15:05<Eddi|zuHause2>that is totally stupid
15:05<Eddi|zuHause2>e.g. for coop servers
15:06<UndernotBuilder>3. if all the players in a game are lamer and vote to kick a person what is doing the genuine player there?
15:06<valhallasw>except a kick generally includes a ban
15:06<UndernotBuilder>2. in coop servers if someone wants to join there is always other that can accept/reject it
15:07<valhallasw>which means lamers can take over a server
15:07<valhallasw>22:06 < UndernotBuilder> 2. in coop servers if someone wants to join there is always other that can accept/reject it <-- bs. our server is *empty* most of the time
15:07<valhallasw>and people idle. a lot.
15:07<UndernotBuilder>but again, what's doing the genuine in the lamers server?
15:08<valhallasw>wrong question
15:08<valhallasw>the *server* is not *owned* by the lamers
15:08<UndernotBuilder>but the lamers can take over a server
15:08<Eddi|zuHause2>UndernotBuilder: scenario: 2 genuine players. 3 (clone) lamers, guess who outvotes?
15:09<Eddi|zuHause2>your "concept" definitely does not work out
15:09<UndernotBuilder>4. the starter of a company can kick the people that comes into his company
15:10<UndernotBuilder>*only* the starter
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15:10<valhallasw>who is the starter?
15:11<valhallasw>by which I mean: how do you check person A is the starter?
15:11<valhallasw>what if he parts and joins
15:12<UndernotBuilder>then include in a variable the player id of the creator
15:12<UndernotBuilder>that cannot be faked
15:12<valhallasw>player id changes after a part and rejoin
15:13<Maedhros>and then your back to ip addresses and passwords
15:14<Maedhros>my english isn't doing too well today...
15:14<valhallasw>so I get disconnected because my provider thinks this is a good moment to change my dynamic IP and I'm no longer the owner
15:14<UndernotBuilder>while the creator is inside the server his id can't change and it cannot be duplicated
15:15<UndernotBuilder>and the id and ip are two things separated
15:15<Cipri>hmm. Why am I charged $50 a month, without having built anything?
15:15<Maedhros>loan interest, probably
15:16<Cipri>No loan.
15:16<Cipri>No loan, no hq, nothing. Brand new game with the loan repayed on Jan 1st.
15:17<mikegrb>Cipri: fee for the air you breathe ;)
15:17<Maedhros>where is it in the expenses list?
15:17<UndernotBuilder>the id and ip are two things separated right?
15:17<valhallasw>yes UndernotBuilder
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15:18<valhallasw>I would expect something like $1200 actually
15:18<valhallasw>not $50
15:18<valhallasw>oh, wait, 1910
15:18<UndernotBuilder>then if your ip changes then how your id can change?
15:18<valhallasw>maybe $50 isn't that bad :p
15:18<valhallasw>UndernotBuilder: because you will get disconnected when your IP changes :P
15:18<Maedhros>if you disconnect from the game (voluntarily or otherwise)
15:18<valhallasw>Cipri: it is the money to pay for your food 8)
15:19<UndernotBuilder>then what should we do to prevent lamers?
15:19<+glx>password for game and companies
15:20<UndernotBuilder>and 4. can be fixed with account system
15:20<UndernotBuilder>even so the lamers can act
15:21<UndernotBuilder>a lame starts to create trains only to destroy other companys trains
15:21<UndernotBuilder>there he doesn't needs a password :)
15:22<valhallasw>buses, yes
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15:47<RobertGrammig>is it completely random how the production amounts of e.g. a sawmill fluctuate?
15:48<TrueBrain>not completely, but yes
15:48<TrueBrain>oh, sawmill
15:48<TrueBrain>no :p
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15:51<valhallasw>RobertGrammig: as random as the amount of wood you bring to it
15:51<valhallasw>id? I fail in englidh.
15:51<valhallasw>and typing
15:51<TrueBrain>I hope your study goes better :p
15:51<TrueBrain>good :)
15:51<valhallasw>and my confidence in informatica has dropped even more
15:52<valhallasw>I got an A- for a memory leaking piece of garbage
15:52<TrueBrain>they can't handle people who knows what they do :p
15:52<valhallasw>now the point is.. for my last assignment, I've created a C proof of concept
15:52<TrueBrain>although I was the only one in my year who got an A for PM :p
15:53<valhallasw>which uses 2n^2+4n+2 memory instead of 2n^2
15:53<RobertGrammig>ok sorry I meant forest of course
15:53<RobertGrammig>I got a nice coverage 70-80% but it keep dropping
15:53<valhallasw>now, theoretically I could reduce it to 2n^2, but that would cost processing powah
15:53<TrueBrain>RobertGrammig: smooth economy off: move 60% away. If on, move as many as you can. Helps increasing a lot.
15:53<TrueBrain>RobertGrammig: but there is always a chance of dropping, it stays a forest :)
15:54<TrueBrain>valhallasw: it is always a balance :)
15:54<TrueBrain>valhallasw: most part of our job here is balance memory against CPU :)
15:55<TrueBrain>what I hate most about informatica, is that they give you less points of you did not a very tiny part
15:55<TrueBrain>while you did add tons of other things
15:55<TrueBrain>bad balance in score ;)
15:55|-|Purno [] has quit [Quit: Life is a game of pick-up-sticks, played by fucking lunatics.]
15:56<RobertGrammig>and just as a general question if i have cities a,b,c on one line with similar distances, but a and c are really big cities and b ist small, is it more rewarding to have no stop at B?
15:56<TrueBrain>RobertGrammig: find out yourself! :)
15:57<valhallasw>TrueBrain: my memory leak meant you could only run the algorithm once
15:57<RobertGrammig>come on tell me ^^
15:57<TrueBrain>valhallasw: they only test what you give them :p
15:57<valhallasw>yeah ^_^
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15:58<RobertGrammig>or just in general, does passenger payoff depend on target city distance and size or is it fixed?
15:58<+glx>distance/time only
15:58<TrueBrain>RobertGrammig: it is in the wiki. Cargo depends on distance over time; see cargo payment graphic.
15:59<Rubidium>TrueBrain: informatica is about doing the stuff that is asked; lets rephrase your sentence: "you hate it when a (ottd-)patch is not accepted because it trashes Windows support, while it add a lot of other things"
15:59<TrueBrain>Rubidium: nah, they are much more childish
16:00<+glx>you need to do it how they think you'll do it
16:00<TrueBrain>Rubidium: I missed one tiny bit of thing, therefor not awarded some big bonus point, not even partly; the point was that they in no way stimulate to do anything extra besides the assignment
16:02<Rubidium>that's not my biggest problem; that's that everybody whom's application seems to work gets (during a 1 minute demonstration) 8 (out of 10) regardless of the quality of the code
16:03<TrueBrain>that is also a big stupidity yes
16:03<TrueBrain>make fake output, and you come a long way :p
16:03<TrueBrain>(if you can hide it clever code-wise, you will even get it done totally :p)
16:05<Rubidium>>>> Map readed, converting..
16:05<Rubidium>it's without the ed :)
16:05<TrueBrain>haha, you are so right :) But, wrong chan ;)
16:06<Rubidium>hmm, true
16:06<valhallasw>Rubidium: that was exactly my point
16:06<valhallasw>with a memory leak as big as mine, I was surprised I scored higher than a simple pass grade
16:07<valhallasw>TrueBrain: <-- maybe I should convert it so it truely is C :)
16:07<valhallasw>that's the entire algorithm, and, apart from reading the problem, it does everything asked
16:08<valhallasw>oh, wait, it's not OOP
16:08<valhallasw>but OOP is BS if you don't care about memory leaks
16:09<Rubidium>what should that piece of code do?
16:10<valhallasw> (note: dutch)
16:10<valhallasw>n persons, each with a study studies[i]
16:10<TrueBrain>connection to that website is cut somewhere along the line...
16:10<valhallasw>liacs or arctus?
16:11<valhallasw>then my lovely speedtouch home is b0rked again
16:11<valhallasw>try again?
16:11<valhallasw>strip the https
16:12<valhallasw>it runs on port 22 externally (yes, ssh runs on 443... proxy reasons)
16:12<valhallasw> <-- should work
16:12<TrueBrain>why does it leak?
16:13<valhallasw>it doesnt
16:13<valhallasw>my last assignment did
16:13<valhallasw>without the s
16:13<TrueBrain>ah, sorry, then I mistunderstood you :p
16:13<valhallasw>again >_<
16:14<valhallasw>now I wonder, is there an png/svg/etc viewer that can be piped to?
16:14<TrueBrain>piped to what / as what?
16:14<valhallasw>./a.out | circo -Tpng | imageviewer
16:15<TrueBrain>good question :)
16:19<Rubidium>I really wonder what is OO about the assignment
16:20<Rubidium>especially because the assignment states that one class is enough
16:20<TrueBrain>Rubidium: the quality of our informatica courses :)
16:21<Rubidium>yeah, there are some rumours some teacher isn't allow to give "programmeren 1 & 2" anymore because he gives too many people a fail-grade
16:22<Rubidium>the real problem is the fact that the grading, course and lectures haven't changed the last few years, only the students that somehow can't cope with the course
16:22<TrueBrain>lol :)
16:23<valhallasw>well, if I see the current informatica students in leiden...
16:23<valhallasw>they generally do worse than math or physics students
16:31<valhallasw>TrueBrain: ./a.out | circo -Tpng | xv -
16:31<TrueBrain>xv sucks
16:31<valhallasw>but the gimp doesnt understand -
16:31<TrueBrain>use /dev/stdin
16:31<TrueBrain>does the trcik most of the time
16:31<valhallasw>'not a regular file'
16:31<valhallasw>been there, done that
16:31<TrueBrain>stupid :p
16:31<TrueBrain>so dump it to a temp :p
16:32<valhallasw>temp files suck
16:32<valhallasw>pipes are a programmers wet dream
16:32<valhallasw>well, not really
16:32<TrueBrain>make a small script :p
16:32<Rubidium>valhallasw: 'fix' gimp
16:35<Rubidium>ugh... why do they try to translate (almost) every english computer term to Dutch, makes it really difficult to read
16:37<Wolf01>night boys
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16:40<valhallasw>Rubidium: because they suck
16:40<Rubidium>Knapzakprobleem <- tsss
16:40<TrueBrain>haha :)
16:41<valhallasw>I love greedyness
16:41<Rubidium>oh, Knapzakprobleem is from the HC4 sheets
16:41<valhallasw>but the worst is the term 'dynamisch programmeren'
16:42<valhallasw>call it caching, saving subresults, but not 'dynamic programming'
16:42<valhallasw>there is *absolutely* nothing dynamic about it
16:42<valhallasw>it would be dynamic *programming* when the algorithm edits itself to solve the problem faster
16:43<TrueBrain>no, that is genetic programming :p
16:43<Rubidium>TrueBrain: ofcourse not
16:43<TrueBrain>Rubidium: you do know what a ':p' means, right?
16:43<Rubidium>genetic programming is an application spawning lots of different applications that should do the same and taking the best of them
16:44<TrueBrain>Rubidium: bad description btw, or rather: poor ;)
16:44<TrueBrain>as you miss one very important key element: by genetic evolution
16:45<valhallasw>evolution \o/
16:45<TrueBrain>(as in the 3 key element: mutation, crossover and duplication)
16:45[~]Rubidium prepends the previous statement with while (true) ;)
16:47<valhallasw>TrueBrain: ./a.out | circo -Tpng | epiphany file:///dev/stdin seems to work *yay*
16:47[~]Rubidium thinks valhallasw' algo course misses one important part: NP vs NPC
16:47<TrueBrain>> [stats]: Germany, heightmap
16:47<TrueBrain>> [stats]: stats:
16:47<TrueBrain>> [stats]: highest value: 2610 meters
16:47<TrueBrain>> [stats]: lowest value : -169 meters
16:47<TrueBrain>> [stats]: avg height : 103 meters
16:47<TrueBrain>> [stats]: sea: : 58%
16:48<Rubidium>and P vs NP
16:48<TrueBrain>my sea calculation is ... wrong :p
16:49<valhallasw>Rubidium: the course lacks every part of algorithm complexity
16:50<valhallasw>there is some very basic order stuff in there
16:50<valhallasw>but nothing more than 'this algorithm is order N. period.'
16:50<Rubidium>there is some 'how to calculate the order' in the course
16:50<valhallasw>so I fail to see the WO in this course... it should be well-suited for HBO-informatica
16:51<TrueBrain>he, Rome isn't built in one day either
16:51<TrueBrain>you needed courses of a level < 500 (HBO level)
16:51<Rubidium>it misses the 'proof this function is O(n^2)' or 'proof this problem cannot be solved in O(n)'
16:51<TrueBrain>else you get crazy :p
16:51<valhallasw>that is the biggest BS I've ever heard
16:52<valhallasw>@ tb
16:52<TrueBrain>valhallasw: really, Rome isn't built in one day. Look it up!
16:52<valhallasw>WO level-100 courses should NOT be the same level as HBO level-100 courses
16:52<TrueBrain>valhallasw: no, and if you read what I write, I never said that
16:52<valhallasw>you are comparing HBO levels to WO levels
16:52<TrueBrain>all < 500 level courses can be done by a HBO student at some stage
16:53<TrueBrain>I do not compate HBO levels
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16:53<TrueBrain>I only talk about Leiden University course levels
16:53<valhallasw>you are grading an HBO student by WO levels
16:53<TrueBrain>You should look up how the levels of courses are created :)
16:54<valhallasw>well, that would probably explain why informatica in leiden sucks that much
16:54<Rubidium>where can I find that information?
16:54<TrueBrain>valhallasw: lol, now that is bullshit :)
16:54<valhallasw>as your '500 = HBO' is not true for either physics or math
16:54<TrueBrain>it is very much through for most courses we follow
16:55<TrueBrain>hmm, only the 500 is wrong
16:55<TrueBrain>oh well
16:56[~]Rubidium wonders why liacs uses C++ as 'standard' programming language
16:56<TrueBrain>Rubidium: we all do
16:56<valhallasw>Rubidium: good question, as there is no memory management in the programming courses
16:56<Rubidium>Java is imo a better choice
16:56<TrueBrain>even worse: they rarely use OO :p
16:56<valhallasw>TrueBrain: my bachelor research is level 400
16:56<TrueBrain>Rubidium: it most likely is yes
16:57<TrueBrain>valhallasw: as I said, the 500 is wrong :p
16:57<TrueBrain>but the levels aren't like I remember anyway... and may courses lack a level nowedays...
16:57[~]TrueBrain tries to find his agenda of some years ago :p
16:58<valhallasw>Rubidium: there is absolutely no reason *not* to use java
16:58<valhallasw>except Kosters cannot teach it, probably
16:58<TrueBrain>there is even no reason to not use Pascal :p
16:58<valhallasw>pascal might get limited later on with informatica
16:59<valhallasw>but for math and physics it would definitly be good enough
16:59<TrueBrain>astronomy uses IDL :p
16:59<Rubidium>nice for written exams
16:59<TrueBrain>IDL is funny :p
16:59<valhallasw>IDL is great
17:00<valhallasw>too great to be funny :P
17:00<TrueBrain>it is funny :)
17:00<TrueBrain>iraf on the other hand....
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17:01<valhallasw>heh, my dad learned to use FORTRAN ('66)
17:01<TrueBrain>Hmm, they removed all info about levels...
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17:02<TrueBrain>oh well
17:02<TrueBrain>and Kosters rules
17:02<valhallasw>Kosters fails in teaching
17:02<valhallasw>but other than that, he rules
17:03<TrueBrain>excuse me? I never seen a teacher getting 60 students who know nothing about programming, motivated to make a C++ program on a moderated level
17:03<TrueBrain>that female character on the other hand...
17:04<Rubidium>C++ is really not the language to start programming in; too much pitfals and lousy (in comparison to java) compiler errors
17:04<TrueBrain>Rubidium: Java has his downside too, but yeah, C++ isn't a nice start :p
17:04<valhallasw>TrueBrain: I hardly call that a moderate level
17:04<valhallasw>and I hardly call that motivated
17:04<TrueBrain>so we disagree :)
17:06<TrueBrain>but I was pretty impressed with my classmates
17:06<TrueBrain>never expected them to write vectorracing :)
17:06<TrueBrain>(hehe, long story :p)
17:08<Eddi|zuHause2>what kind of off-topic babble is that?
17:08<TrueBrain>a lot of off-topic
17:08<TrueBrain>you like it? :)
17:09<Eddi|zuHause2>no, absolutely not ;)
17:09<TrueBrain>your loss :p
17:10<Rubidium>ofcourse this is less off-topic than most of the off-topic stuff I've seen
17:10<TrueBrain>also very true
17:11<Eddi|zuHause2>i don't understand half of what you're talking about...
17:12<TrueBrain>we are talking about our uni :)
17:12<valhallasw>and about the lousyness of teaching first-years c++
17:12<Eddi|zuHause2>i figured that much, but everything beyond that needs too much inside knowledge
17:13<Eddi|zuHause2>i learned haskell and sather-k in my first year
17:13<Rubidium>basically it's about the lousiness of (some) Dutch universities in the field of grading and scientific level of the courses
17:15<TrueBrain>but okay, Eddi|zuHause2, you have a better topic of talk?
17:15<Eddi|zuHause2>i don't think so :)
17:16<TrueBrain>You have nothing interested to tell at all? :)
17:20<valhallasw>I hate 'plzz dont read this\n\n\n\n\nyour mother will die in 4 hours if you dont copy-paste this to 40 comments'-youtube-comments
17:21<Eddi|zuHause2>someone has seen to much "the ring" :)
17:23<TrueBrain>I really hate such comments too
17:23<TrueBrain>they just sound so nasty
17:23<CIA-2>OpenTTD: truelight * r9740 /trunk/src/roadveh_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#709]: removed wrong assert() that could be triggered by removing an order at the wrong moment
17:23<TrueBrain>I even hate more those people who copy paste it in a channel
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17:34<valhallasw>I transcribed it, does that count?
17:35|-|setrodox_ [] has joined #openttd
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17:41<valhallasw>then too bad
17:41<valhallasw>because your mother will die in 4 hours! muhahahahaha
17:41<TrueBrain>@kick valhallasw
17:41<DorpsGek>TrueBrain: Error: I need to be opped to kick someone.
17:41<TrueBrain>Rubidium: do you mind opping DorpsGek?
17:42<TrueBrain>(we should add him to chanserv)
17:42|-|setrodox__ [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:43<Rubidium>TrueBrain: can't you do that yourself?
17:43<TrueBrain>Rubidium: I removed myself from the access-list long ago
17:43<TrueBrain>and I forgot the password :p
17:44|-|mode/#openttd [+o TrueBrain] by ChanServ
17:44|-|mode/#openttd [+b valhallasw!*@*] by TrueBrain
17:44|-|mode/#openttd [+b byebye,!*@*] by TrueBrain
17:44|-|mode/#openttd [+b such!*@*] by TrueBrain
17:44|-|mode/#openttd [+b language!*@*] by TrueBrain
17:44|-|mode/#openttd [+b is!*@*] by TrueBrain
17:44|-|mode/#openttd [+b _not_!*@*] by TrueBrain
17:44|-|mode/#openttd [+b welcome!*@*] by TrueBrain
17:44<@TrueBrain>Stupid client I have....
17:44|-|valhallasw kicked [#openttd] TrueBrain [byebye, such language is _not_ welcome here]
17:44|-|mode/#openttd [+b here!*@*] by TrueBrain
17:44|-|mode/#openttd [-b welcome!*@*] by TrueBrain
17:44<+glx>clearly ;)
17:44|-|mode/#openttd [-b _not_!*@*] by TrueBrain
17:44|-|mode/#openttd [-b byebye,!*@*] by TrueBrain
17:45|-|mode/#openttd [-b here!*@*] by TrueBrain
17:45|-|mode/#openttd [-b is!*@*] by TrueBrain
17:45|-|mode/#openttd [-b language!*@*] by TrueBrain
17:45|-|mode/#openttd [-b such!*@*] by TrueBrain
17:45<@TrueBrain>it even bans very stupid
17:45<@TrueBrain>I truely don't get how someone can even joke about things like that
17:45|-|mode/#openttd [+o DorpsGek] by TrueBrain
17:46|-|mode/#openttd [-o TrueBrain] by TrueBrain
17:49|-|mode/#openttd [+o TrueBrain] by DorpsGek
17:49|-|mode/#openttd [-b valhallasw!*@*] by TrueBrain
17:49|-|mode/#openttd [-o TrueBrain] by TrueBrain
17:51<TrueBrain>I should enable the ban-module I guess :p
17:52<TrueBrain>argh, don't you guys too hate it when you miss parts of your log-files?
17:52<TrueBrain>after a reboot or something, that it gets chopped
17:53<TrueBrain>who remembers when we migrated to oftc?
17:53<Rubidium>my logs?
17:54<Eddi|zuHause2>my freenode logs stop 21. Dez
17:54<Rubidium>12th of August
17:54<TrueBrain>tnx Rubidium
17:54<Eddi|zuHause2>(last change)
17:55<Eddi|zuHause2>i have no idea why
17:56<TrueBrain>Rubidium: 2005?
17:56<TrueBrain>pfff, time goes fast
17:56<Rubidium>nah, must be 2006
17:56<Eddi|zuHause2>[Sa Aug 12 2006] [18:20:02] <TrueLight> Dear people, we have moved to We hope you all move with us. This channel is on mute, and because of that you are not able to talk. Of course, on you can talk freely to us. Sorry about the trouble, and thank you for your understanding.
17:56<TrueBrain>2006? Pfew :)
17:58<TrueBrain>k, tnx :)
18:00<Ailure>a channnel I know is considering moving
18:00<Ailure>from espernet
18:00<Ailure>non-existant service from IRCops is the main reason heh
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18:14<Eddi|zuHause2>!calc 4.24/0.3
18:14<_42_>Eddi|zuHause2: 14.1333333333;
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18:19<RobertGrammig>I just downloaded openttd this week and wonder what this newGRF stuff is? graphics?
18:19<Eddi|zuHause2>more than just graphics
18:19<Eddi|zuHause2>it can change complete vehiclesets, and modify lots of other game behaviour
18:20<Sacro>grfs are ace
18:21<Maedhros>night boys and girls
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18:22<RobertGrammig>well where can I download them ;)?
18:22<Eddi|zuHause2> would be a good start
18:23<Eddi|zuHause2>or on the ttdpatch site
18:24<Eddi|zuHause2>,%2014.%20Aug%201923.png <- only a few possibilities you can have with newgrf
18:24<Eddi|zuHause2>in this case, the DBSetXL as vehicleset, NewStations and IndustrialStations as stationset, and "stolentrees"
18:24<RobertGrammig>looks great
18:25<RobertGrammig>can grfs also fix the low difficulty level caused by the stupid AI?
18:25|-|ThePizzaKing [] has joined #openttd
18:25<Eddi|zuHause2>but there is a new AI system in development
18:26<Eddi|zuHause2>i have learned to just switch off the AI
18:26<Eddi|zuHause2>there is enough challenge in managing your own network
18:27<RobertGrammig>yeah prolly best thing to do...
18:28<Eddi|zuHause2>i have probably not played against AI in 10 years...
18:30<Eddi|zuHause2>,%2020.%20Okt%201925.png <- a little more busy situation :)
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18:30<RobertGrammig>well I would definitely prefer having a good AI... building your own network is nice but I want some kind of benchmark to which I can compare the cleverness of my network
18:31<Eddi|zuHause2>good "AI" = multiplayer :)
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18:34<RobertGrammig>yeah thats right ;=)
18:38<TrueBrain>I like the new AI framework that is being build :) I wonder how long it takes for someone to make an AI that beats you guys! :)
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19:35<ln->goooood evening, 'coon
19:37<@Belugas>hello joly fellow :)
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---Logclosed Sat Apr 28 22:48:44 2007
---Logopened Sat Apr 28 22:48:45 2007
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---Logclosed Sun Apr 29 00:00:18 2007