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#openttd IRC Logs for 2007-04-29

---Logopened Sun Apr 29 00:00:18 2007
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02:25<CIA-2>OpenTTD: rubidium * r9741 /trunk/src/settings_gui.cpp: -Fix [FS#672]: station signs were not resized when the language changed, causing overflows in the coloured sign background.
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03:43<CIA-2>OpenTTD: maedhros * r9742 /trunk/src/ (6 files): -Fix (r9689) [FS#739]: Fix cloning with refit costs again, hopefully for good this time.
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04:19<CIA-2>OpenTTD: maedhros * r9743 /trunk/src/town_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#598]: Stop flooded towns from building roads on water.
04:23<SpComb>hylje: I just commited something to the spbot svn repo!
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04:24[~]Touqen debates whether he's been a member of the community long enough to be shocked.
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04:55<CIA-2>OpenTTD: KUDr * r9745 /trunk/src/yapf/yapf_destrail.hpp: -Codechange [YAPF}: if destination is a waypoint then YAPF gets destination tile from that waypoint->xy instead of from v->dest_tile
05:04<SpComb>hylje: two more commits!
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05:13<valhallasw>and then we have reached r9747?
05:14<CIA-2>OpenTTD: KUDr * r9746 /trunk/src/yapf/yapf_destrail.hpp: -Codechange [YAPF]: added DEBUGs level 0 if the current train order is OT_GOTO_WAYPOINT and waypoint is invalid or v->dest_tile is wrong
05:15<Eddi|zuHause2>spbot != openttd
05:15<valhallasw>ah :P
05:17<TrueBrain>makes you wonder why they talk about it here :p :p
05:18<valhallasw>Well. My personal SVN rep has reached rev 64 \o/
05:18<Eddi|zuHause2>the same reason why they talk about university stuff ^^
05:18<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause2: okay, point for you :)
05:18<valhallasw>it mainly made me wonder why they talked about it just after an openttd commit :p
05:19<TrueBrain>I just really hope they didn't talk about the Trojan :)
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07:27<ln->any danish people raound?
07:27<ln->around even
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07:36<CIA-2>OpenTTD: truelight * r9747 /branches/noai/src/ai/ (4 files in 2 dirs): [NoAI] -Add: added AITileListRoadTile and AITileListNeighbourRoad as Valuators for AITileList
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07:47<SpComb>hylje: <-- the info in the status bar is in real-time! (other than the umodes)
07:47<CIA-2>OpenTTD: truelight * r9748 /branches/noai/src/ai/api/ai_tilelist_valuator.cpp: [NoAI] -Fix: use TileDiffXY instead of TileXY to move in the map (tnx glx)
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07:54<kbrooks>open ttd!
07:55<kbrooks>Wolf01, talking to me or?
07:55<Wolf01>to you
07:55<kbrooks>no, sorry, i meant "openttd" :-)
08:00<SpComb>I preferr openntpd
08:02<CIA-2>OpenTTD: truelight * r9749 /branches/noai/bin/ai/regression/ (regression.nut regression.txt): [NoAI] -Add: added regression-test for new AITileList valuators
08:02<CIA-2>OpenTTD: truelight * r9750 /branches/noai/src/ai/api/ai_abstractlist.cpp: [NoAI] -Fix: if AIAbstractList is empty, don't make the sorters segfault
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08:11<elmex>openttd: tile.h:36: TileHeight: Assertion `tile < MapSize()' failed.
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08:12<elmex>and no helpful backtrace ;-/
08:13<Wolf01>will the multi-level water be applied soon to trunk?
08:16<Zavior>Whats multilevel water? :o
08:17<elmex>heh, it just keeps crashing
08:18<elmex>i guess bugs/crashes should go to the sourceforge tracker?
08:18<Zavior>Nice :P
08:18<elmex> - ah ok
08:20<elmex>damn, another bugtracker to register :-(
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08:31<elmex>okay, svn seems not to crash
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08:43<yeti_>is anyone of you using nightly builds on linux? how do you install them? does anyone happen to have a script that copies the files from the nightlies to the right directories?
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08:44<Chrissicom>good morning
08:45<Chrissicom>is there a dev tutorial how ShowErrorMessage() works?
08:45<Chrissicom>I don't know which arguments are required in brackets
08:47<TrueBrain>search the code, look at other instances, look at gui.h
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08:48<yeti_>Chrissicom: the function is in misc_gui.c - it takes up to two error message identifiers (see other examples) and the x/y position where it should be displayed as far as i see
08:50<Chrissicom>ah thanks I forgot the x y pos :)
08:50<Chrissicom>compiles fine now
08:54<CIA-2>OpenTTD: truelight * r9751 /branches/noai/src/ai/api/ai_controller.hpp: [NoAI] -Fix: silly typo in doxygen header
08:55<Chrissicom>one more question, where can I find a good example how to disable a menu button in certain cases?
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08:58<yeti_>Chrissicom: look for the toggle build/remove tracks-button
08:59<yeti_>that one will be activated when building signals/tracks is active and disabled otherwise
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09:01<Maedhros>you probably want DisableWindowWidget, unless you're talking about drop-down menus
09:06<Chrissicom>Maedhros: This should do it, I want to disable the vehicle lists when there are no vehicles of that type :)
09:07<Eddi|zuHause2>bad idea
09:07<Eddi|zuHause2>because that list has the button for available vehicles
09:08<Eddi|zuHause2>which is the only place where you can check those without building a depot
09:08<Eddi|zuHause2>which is necessary for planning a route
09:08<Chrissicom>well I want to combine this with another patch
09:09<Chrissicom>when you set trains allowed to 0 for example you should not be able to build tracks
09:09<Chrissicom>and when no trains can be built you also don't need that button
09:09<Chrissicom>since there will always be 0 trains
09:09<Chrissicom>same for airports, docks etc.
09:09<Chrissicom>I have a few servers which don't allow planes and people don't read the server title obviously build airports and wonder why they can't build any planes
09:10<Eddi|zuHause2>ok, that sounds more sensible, but not just disable with 0 vehicles existing...
09:11<Chrissicom>kk :)
09:11<Eddi|zuHause2>but for example with 0 road vehicles allowed you should still be able to build road (e.g. to influence town growth)
09:14<Chrissicom>ahh you're right I haven't thought about that yet
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09:49<yeti_>does openttd benefit from CFLAGS="-march=pentium4" or should i just use the defaults?
09:50<Eddi|zuHause2>you can try...
09:50<peter1138>i don't know if anyone's bothered benchmarking it
09:50<Eddi|zuHause2>i assume it's minimal...
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09:50<TrueBrain>but it will always help, assuming you have a pentium4 (compatible) CPU :p
09:51<stillunknown>What will help?
09:51<ln->i doubt the benefit is detectable by human eye.
09:51<Eddi|zuHause2>some optimisations for pentium4 cpus might not be as optimal on "compatible" cpus
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09:52<Eddi|zuHause2>considering pipeline lengths and stuff
09:52<TrueBrain>but the same is that a i686 compiler makes 'faster' binaries then a i386 compiler, if you have a "compatible" cpu
09:52<ln->TrueBrain: then -> than
09:53<ln->as long as ottd is using sleep/delay/sched_yield/whatever, doesn't that neutralize all the potential optimizations?
09:53<TrueBrain>not really
09:53<Eddi|zuHause2>why would it?
09:53<ln->as long as we're talking about speed imporvements of few per cent, not something like O(e^n) -> O(n)
09:54<TrueBrain>but it is more that it will be use less CPU
09:54<Eddi|zuHause2>compiler optimisations pretty much NEVER cross complexity borders
09:54<TrueBrain>but I doubt anyone can get a profile that shows the difference clearly (say, an alpha of 0.05)
09:55<TrueBrain>(alpha as in significant level (H0 hypotize) (what are the english words :p))
09:55<Eddi|zuHause2>except if you have pretty stupid things in there, like array accesses in O(n)
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09:55<ln->but someone please go ahead and compile it optimized and report your experiences here.
09:55<TrueBrain>by default I compile everything for my CPU :p
09:56<TrueBrain>it doesn't hurt in any way :p
09:56<Maedhros>the difference between debug and release builds is pretty much the only difference i've ever noticed ;)
09:56<TrueBrain>haha, that kind of is a bug difference ;)
09:56<TrueBrain>bug = big :p
09:58<Eddi|zuHause2>noticeable jumps might be if you go from i386 to MMX, and make heavy use of 8-bit operations... then you can get something like a factor of 4
09:58<TrueBrain>using a cpu-set extension might also decrease the binary size
09:59<TrueBrain>but it is not really worth it :)
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10:14<elmex>hm, could someone answer me a question about signals? i've following setup: but the trains keep entering the first slot rather than the others. why doesn't it choose?
10:15<peter1138>because you're using maglev
10:15<peter1138>and you can't see when you're missing track pieces
10:15<elmex>track pieces
10:16<peter1138>specifically the corner that would let them get to the other tracks
10:16<elmex>that was it
10:17<elmex>thanks peter1138
10:17<Eddi|zuHause2>maglev tracks are so ugly...
10:17<elmex>but they are fast
10:18<elmex>pre-signals are really cool
10:18<yeti_>uh.. how does ottd handle time? game time seems to run a bit faster in my selfcompiled version
10:18<TrueBrain>against what?
10:18<yeti_>i'm not exactly sure about it, but it does feel so
10:18<yeti_>latest nightly (compiled it myself) against ottd0.5.1
10:19<TrueBrain>no difference in game speed if you don't fast forward
10:19<Eddi|zuHause2>run two games (without too heavy load) simultaneously
10:19<Eddi|zuHause2>and compare game time after a few minutes
10:19<elmex>maybe autosave does delay a bit?
10:20<yeti_>ah, that's a good idea. will try that
10:21<yeti_>is there an overview over what's new in the nightlies compared to 0.5.1? i tried to make a source diff, but that is so large that i can't extract any useful information :)
10:21<TrueBrain>too many things :p
10:22<Eddi|zuHause2>there's supposed to be a changelog :)
10:22<TrueBrain>we call it 'svn log' ;)
10:23<Eddi|zuHause2>the most important (visible) features should be bridges over everything and newhouses support
10:25<yeti_>i've already noticed bridges over everything - how do you make that fancy bridge over tunnel entrance thingie that saves place in certain junctions?
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10:26<Eddi|zuHause2>i don't think that is possible...
10:29<yeti_>uhhh... and the cargo payment rates for passengers seem to have been changed. they make double profit now (on a savegame i had from 0.5.1)
10:29<yeti_>they=my aircraft
10:30<TrueBrain>no, aircraft speed changed
10:30<yeti_>oh okay! the numerical value for "Max Speed" is still the same, but they do look very fast :)
10:31<TrueBrain>they now have the same speed of a train at a given speed (instead of twice as slow :p)
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10:31<Eddi|zuHause2>i thought the factor was x4
10:31<yeti_>that's interesting, because i thought that planes were very profitable even before this change
10:31<TrueBrain>yeah, lucky someone is working on a new economy model...
10:32<Eddi|zuHause2>you first have to reduce special cases, before you can work on proper global rebalancing
10:32<Eddi|zuHause2>and the plane speed was such a special case
10:34<elmex>the game wasn't as hard as i thought. i was able to win on difficulty 'hard'. but i guess thats also because the computer enemies are most of the time no enemy
10:34<Eddi|zuHause2>i think the intention was to make starting/landing more expensive (money and/or time) instead
10:34<Eddi|zuHause2>so planes are viable for long distances only
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10:45<kbrooks>do i search for those .zip files somewhere....
10:46<Rubidium>what zip files?
10:47<kbrooks>Rubidium, original game files zips
10:48<Rubidium>ah, don't know that
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10:50[~]peter1138 found them on his cd
10:50[~]Rubidium too
10:51[~]Eddi|zuHause2 too *pretends*
10:51<peter1138>damn, i need to kill my dad
10:51<peter1138>"how r u" :(
10:52<TrueBrain>peter1138: it might not be the smartest thing to tell us about it first :p
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10:53<TrueBrain>I wonder if lolman will ever get a stable connection....
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11:10<yeti_> <- why did this train get jammed? that's a presignal over there, so it's not a valid exit, plus it's the wrong direction!
11:10<yeti_>i know that the layout is very far from perfect, but i can't see how this could have happened
11:12<TrueBrain>which pf?
11:13<TrueBrain>did you check all tiles are there?
11:14<Maedhros>looks like you're missing a piece of track there
11:15<yeti_>it's yapf
11:15<yeti_>i'll check the tiles
11:15<TrueBrain>then it really is missing a piece of track on the tile :)
11:19<yeti_>nah, all the tiles are there... maybe it went in when the presignal was green, but then another train came from the top and entered the track that the jammed train wnated to enter?
11:20<valhallasw>could be
11:21<Eddi|zuHause2>you should probably avoid 2-way-stations
11:22<kbrooks>Eddi|zuHause2, what is a 2 way station
11:22<hylje>yapf discourages going through a station
11:22<Eddi|zuHause2>a station surrounded by 2-way-signals
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11:24<Eddi|zuHause2>,%2014.%20Aug%201923.png <- a not-100%-2-way-station
11:24<yeti_>Eddi|zuHause2: i know :) but they're easier to build in the beginning
11:24<Eddi|zuHause2>you can only enter each 2nd track
11:24<Eddi|zuHause2>but leave in both directions
11:25<Eddi|zuHause2>hylje: but only if there's a path around it
11:31<kbrooks>any good openttd server?:-)
11:32<TrueBrain>any server is good :)
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11:32<dihedral>concerning industry_cmd.cpp
11:32<dihedral>what do you guys think of new_prod += ((RandomRange(51) + 10) * old_prod) >> 8
11:32<dihedral>or new_prod += 1 + ((RandomRange(50) + 10) * old_prod) >> 8
11:32<TrueBrain>the first doesn't work
11:33<kbrooks>TrueBrain, are you on any?
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11:33<dihedral>TrueBrain: why not?
11:33<TrueBrain>dihedral: how do you think it can work? :)
11:33<dihedral>i have no idea - i am just throwing in some suggestion :-)
11:34<Eddi|zuHause2>what is that thing supposed to do?!?
11:34<dihedral>make sure production can increase if it hits a 1-4
11:36<dihedral>i.e. 32/36 or 32/40
11:38<dihedral>TrueBrain: what makes you think it cannot work?
11:39<TrueBrain>first I eat my icecream
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11:39<dihedral>well - enjoy that :-)
11:39<TrueBrain>am doing so
11:40<TrueBrain>ah! There :)
11:40<TrueBrain>okay, let's get back to what the problem was
11:40<hylje>enjoy your ice cream
11:40<TrueBrain>if old_prod is low enough, the increase is always 0
11:40<TrueBrain>because: (RandomRange(50) + 10) * old_prod / 256, is what the original code says, not?
11:41<dihedral>so give old_prod a 1
11:41<TrueBrain>so, (RandomRange(50) + 10) * old_prod needs to be > 256
11:41<TrueBrain>say, RandomRange returns 50, the highest value
11:41<TrueBrain>old_prod needs to be > 256 / 60 to do anything at all
11:41<TrueBrain>which is > 4
11:41<dihedral>60 * 1 /256
11:42<TrueBrain>so changing the 50 to 51, doesn't change anything at all
11:42<TrueBrain>yeah, it changes this:
11:42<TrueBrain>@calc 256 / 60
11:42<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: 4.26666666667
11:42<TrueBrain>@calc 256 / 61
11:42<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: 4.19672131148
11:43<TrueBrain> <- something like this is what I would suggest
11:43|-|Tron_ changed nick to Tron
11:43<TrueBrain>an other one would be:
11:43<dihedral>that looks good
11:43<TrueBrain>(RandomRange(50) + 10) * (old_prod + 4) >> 8
11:43<dihedral>big question
11:44<dihedral>do the mp clients recieve this data or do they have to calculate it themselves
11:44<dihedral>ie. is it enough to patch the server?
11:44<TrueBrain>nope, you need to patch both client and server
11:45<kbrooks>why might i have a hard time seeing text
11:45<kbrooks>in openttd
11:45<dihedral>you need glasses
11:45<TrueBrain>or switch on your computer screen
11:45<kbrooks>my computer screen is on
11:45<kbrooks>is it my monitor?
11:45<dihedral>connect the vga cable
11:46<TrueBrain>don't use 6000x4000 resolution on a 11" screen
11:46<dihedral>increase font size
11:46<dihedral>use a native res on TFT's
11:51<dihedral>TrueBrain: how much chance of that patch getting included some time soonish?
11:52<TrueBrain>dunno, as I am personally not all too happy with the solution
11:54<TrueBrain>ugly, more of a workaround then a real solution
11:54<dihedral>but a work around is better than nothing, esp if it is only included in 0.5 and you then have more time to find a real solution for trunk and 0.6
11:54<TrueBrain>we don't work like that :)
11:55<TrueBrain>but I will give it an other poke around
11:55<dihedral>i am just a very curious person :-P
11:57<TrueBrain>which can be a good thing ;)
11:57<dihedral>... can ...
11:57<TrueBrain>you should ask a woman if you can look at some places because you are curious
11:57<TrueBrain>I doubt she will like it :p
11:58<TrueBrain>they don't like you looking at their size of their t-shirt
12:03<TrueBrain>you guys have no humor at all :(
12:05<MUcht>I do have ;-)
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12:16<kbrooks>how do i get rid of all non-pinned windows
12:16<kbrooks>in openttd
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12:16<Rubidium>isn't it delete?
12:16<TrueBrain>I always press it without thinking :p
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12:20<hylje>its delete
12:21<Cipri>and Ctrl+Delete closes all pinned down windows aswell.
12:21<TrueBrain>then wtf does backspace do? :p
12:22<Cipri>Erase text after you've clicked on a sign?
12:22<TrueBrain>haha :) Delete erares text too, if you are in an edit box :)
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12:26<dihedral><TrueBrain> I doubt she will like it :p <-- just because it never worked for you does not mean it will be the same for me
12:28<dihedral>and extra rules option in the network settings of the cfg file would be cool
12:28<dihedral>wher one can specify a url where the rules are kept
12:28<dihedral>and can refer to that page too
12:30<Eddi|zuHause2>i do not think any woman will let you look in her purse...
12:31<TrueBrain>I know enoguh who in fact do... or worse: can you get that from my purse? :p
12:31<Eddi|zuHause2>err... :p
12:34<peter1138>mmm, rubadub
12:34<Rubidium>DaleStan: <- Vehicle trigger 2 (The consist has unloaded all cargo): does that mean it has unloaded everything and might already be loading stuff, or it unloaded everything it can unload at that station (and is already loading other stuff), or that the train is completely empty
12:40<kbrooks>how to buy land?
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12:54<DaleStan>Rubidium: I'm not sure. Ask patchman. I'm guessing it means what it says: "has unloaded all cargo", for which "is empty" is necessary but not sufficient. However, it says "consist", not "vehicle", so I'm not sure how that works with gradual loading, as some vehicles may start loading before others finish unloading.
12:55<Rubidium>how can I reach patchman?
12:57<peter1138>#tycoon quakenet
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13:21<CIA-2>OpenTTD: rubidium * r9752 /trunk/src/ (5 files): -Codechange: remove some duplication related to BeginLoading.
13:21<G-Man>hi all, I get this error when I try to compile openttd on my freebsd shell: ===> Linking openttd
13:21<G-Man>/usr/bin/ld: cannot find -lpthread
13:21<G-Man>gmake: *** [openttd] Error 1
13:22<G-Man>any input on how I can fix that?
13:22<Noldo>you are missing the thread library named pthread
13:23<G-Man>hmm, how do I obtain it?
13:24<Noldo>it's pretty standard stuff so my guess is that it's packaged in freebsd too
13:30<hylje>hmm how buffer is scrolled in screen
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13:57<hnsn>hello friends!
13:57|-|tokai [] has joined #openttd
13:57|-|mode/#openttd [+v tokai] by ChanServ
13:57<TrueBrain>hello hnsn
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14:03[~]hnsn loves
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14:04<hnsn>but its not ok to spread modifyed grf:s, right?
14:04|-|lolman [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
14:04<hnsn>modifyed orginal grfs
14:04<valhallasw>if you don't have permission of the original copyright owner, no
14:06<Eddi|zuHause2>you can change trees with newgrf
14:07<Eddi|zuHause2>you don't need to modify original grfs
14:07<TrueBrain>whoho, personal record: 109 Mbit/sec over the Internet
14:07<TrueBrain>that with 100 Mbit/sec switches and cables
14:07<Eddi|zuHause2>aside of that, the new transparency options allow invisible trees without transparent buildings
14:08<Eddi|zuHause2>i did not even reach 0,5Mbit yet
14:08<TrueBrain>Running stable for 3 minutes now...
14:09<TrueBrain>You got to love fast backbones :)
14:11<hnsn>Eddi|zuHause2: is that option available in a current release?
14:11<Eddi|zuHause2>no, but in trunk, i believe
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14:13<yeti_>TrueBrain: 109mbit? university connection?
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14:13<yeti_>hnsn: invisible trees without transparent buildings is available in the latest nightly build, i installed it today
14:13<TrueBrain>yeti_: yeah, just 2 switches of 100 Mbit here, then fiber optic :)
14:15<Eddi|zuHause2>i get pretty constant 45KB down and 8KB up
14:15<TrueBrain>stress-test of 10 minutes shows a nice stable link, and that over 300 km :)
14:15[~]TrueBrain is happy
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14:15<Eddi|zuHause2>holland isn't that big :p
14:16<TrueBrain>it is :)
14:16<Eddi|zuHause2>300km? from where to where?
14:17<Eddi|zuHause2>east germany was 500km from north to south, holland is definitely much smaller than that
14:18<TrueBrain>from DenHelder to Maastricht it already is 250km when you go in a very straight line
14:18<hnsn>yeti_: 9734?
14:18<TrueBrain>so don't worry, 300 km isn't that long
14:19<Eddi|zuHause2>300km is from here to berlin and back
14:20<Maedhros>london's more than 300km from here, and england isn't known for being that big :)
14:20<hnsn>aha 46
14:20<TrueBrain>look up a map of The Netherlands, and you will see that you can make easy routes of 300 km
14:21<TrueBrain>Maedhros: I think England is BIG!!! :p
14:21<Eddi|zuHause2>england is pretty spread out...
14:22<Eddi|zuHause2>especially if you mean britain instead ;)
14:22<valhallasw>wasn't there a server info box coming for the server list?
14:22<valhallasw>with URL etc?
14:23<Eddi|zuHause2>i do not remember anyone implementing this
14:23<TrueBrain>I do not even remember anyone trying to implement
14:24<valhallasw>I'm not too familiar with the code at this moment, but how (im)possible would it be?
14:24<Eddi|zuHause2>there has been discussion that it would be a nice feature
14:24<Eddi|zuHause2>it's mainly gui code, and that is always ugly :)
14:25<Rubidium>and (very) limited space in the server info packet
14:25<yeti_>hnsn: yeah, i'm running 9734
14:27<hnsn>yeti_: ok got it. but i cant find the setting, there are too many =D
14:28<Eddi|zuHause2>hnsn: there's a "transparency gui" somewhere
14:29<Eddi|zuHause2>i assume in the same dropdown that has the game settings and patch settings
14:29<Eddi|zuHause2>i have never seen it live...
14:29<hnsn>you are just kidding me, right? =D
14:30<hnsn>fool the swede!!!
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14:31<Eddi|zuHause2>yeah, i'm late and missed 1st april
14:32<+glx>it's in the "map" dropdown
14:32<Eddi|zuHause2>aha, good to know ;)
14:34<hnsn>but give me my 5 minutes it took to erase then from the grf back!!
14:34<hnsn>or not
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14:50<Wolf01>use CTRL+2 to make trees transparent
14:51<dihedral>funding a lumber mill in a tropical game is possible even if build_rawmaterial_ind is turned off
14:53<Wolf01>eh, lumber mills should be secondary industries, but the one in tropical is an exception
14:53<dihedral>that is pretty distrubing
14:54<peter1138>the tropic lumber mill is *only* fundable
14:54<peter1138>they don't appear by themselves
14:54<dihedral>would be nice if it were the other way round
14:54<dihedral>as they produce raw material
14:55<dihedral>makes me not want to host tropicals anymore
14:55<dihedral>but tropical is a great map
14:57<Wolf01>i've never seen, recently, an industry pop up by himself, i mean "new industry built near city", some time ago it was common to see an industry pop up like a mushroom in the middle of your straight rail project
14:57<Wolf01>dihedral, but you should know that if they cut all the trees they have the production reduced
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15:05<elmex>wtf. there is a whole science build up on railway layouts
15:05|-|Sacro [~ben@adsl-87-102-80-216.karoo.KCOM.COM] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
15:06<elmex>and i'm getting a headache by building things like this:
15:06<Wolf01> WTF this, not your railway!!! XD
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15:09<hnsn>i have no clue what you guys are talking about
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15:10<peter1138>yucky 90 degree bends ;(
15:10<elmex>hnsn: this:
15:11<elmex>peter1138: my problem was that i didn't have enough money in the beginning to expand the land
15:11<elmex>so i had to edal with the space i had
15:12<elmex>whats the problme with 90degree? that the trains slow down?
15:13<hnsn>im slow in my head
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15:17<CIA-2>OpenTTD: bjarni * r9753 /trunk/src/autoreplace_cmd.cpp:
15:17<CIA-2>OpenTTD: -Fix [FS#732]: trains are lost after autorenewal/autoreplace
15:17<CIA-2>OpenTTD: v->dest_tile is now copied when replacing the front engine
15:17<dihedral>for the ranking
15:17<dihedral>counting the station parts
15:18<dihedral>only count station parts that are being services by the appropriate vehicle type
15:19<dihedral>what say you?
15:20<@Bjarni>because if I say anything, then I would have to read back what you said in order to know what I reply to :p
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15:21<dihedral>na - i'll tell you
15:21<dihedral>it was only a 3 liner
15:21<dihedral>for the ranking system, when counting the station parts
15:21<dihedral>you could only count the station parts being serviced by the appropriate vehicle type
15:22<dihedral>a truck station connected to a trainstation though no truck ever goes there should not be counted
15:23<Eddi|zuHause2>what ranking system?
15:23<dihedral>what you call it then?
15:23<Eddi|zuHause2>i have no idea what you mean
15:24<dihedral>performance rating :-)
15:25<Eddi|zuHause2>you mean like "Passengers - Good (53%)"
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15:25<dihedral>i mean like in the performance history graph
15:25<dihedral>click on the details button
15:26<dihedral>2nd from the top
15:27<Eddi|zuHause2>elmex:,%204.%20Jun%201965.png - an old station of mine
15:28<Eddi|zuHause2>dihedral: and what exactly do you want to do with that now?
15:28<elmex>wow, lol
15:28<dihedral>i was only suggesting to only count stations that were being used
15:28<elmex>Eddi|zuHause2: that doesn't even use pre-signals
15:28<Ammler>Hello, im having problems with copy&paste (paste password) on my KDE, some others haven't, does someone of you know why?
15:29<Eddi|zuHause2>they were not really necessary...
15:29<dihedral>as some players build countless bus stops in the middle of nowhere to advance themselves in that rating
15:30<dihedral>so perhaps unused stations can bring a negative to the rating :-P
15:30<Eddi|zuHause2>elmex:,%2020.%20Okt%201925.png - a new station of mine
15:31<Eddi|zuHause2>(although that uses PBS)
15:31<elmex>Eddi|zuHause2: 1925? how to start so early?
15:32<Eddi|zuHause2>it's the DBSetXL, it has trains from 1920 (both steam and electric)
15:32<elmex>wow, thats indeed an awesome station
15:32<elmex>oh, k
15:32<dihedral>good night guys
15:32<dihedral>i shall hit the rack
15:33<elmex>how do you come up with those stations? do they just grow by nature and intuitively?
15:33<Eddi|zuHause2>usually i start with something simple and it grows when i notice bottlenecks
15:34<elmex>heh, k
15:34<elmex>do you destruct the cities a lot while building stations?
15:35<Eddi|zuHause2>after a while you get standard situations, where you just build the same structure over and over again, whith little modifications
15:35<Eddi|zuHause2>the initial station usually fits next to the city
15:35<Eddi|zuHause2>but if you expand later, you easily have to destroy a lot of buildings
15:36<elmex>for example Kreuzstadt Hbf, i usually don'tbuild such big stations in the beginning :)
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15:36<Eddi|zuHause2>well, it's not exactly the beginning, because i played 5 years with daylength x32
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15:37<elmex>daylength x32?
15:37<Eddi|zuHause2>it's a miniin patch
15:37<elmex>it slows down time?
15:38<elmex>doesnt the city disallow building if you destruct too many buildings?
15:38<elmex>i'm always having problems with that
15:38<Eddi|zuHause2>that's "fixed" in a few lines of code :)
15:38<elmex>you patched your ttd to have freehands in building stations? :-)
15:39<Eddi|zuHause2>yeah, basically :)
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15:39<Eddi|zuHause2>actually, i think miniin rating handling is buggy, all my ratings were appaling immediately, and did not grow back
15:40<elmex>i still like the challenge in the beginning to gain enough money
15:40<elmex>sometimes the computer even surprises me with profitable routes
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15:45<elmex>heh, it's really interesting to watch multiplayer games. awesome to see what people come up with
15:45|-|mikk36[EST] changed nick to mikk36
15:46<Eddi|zuHause2>you can download the archived games from #openttdcoop, they have insane networks :)
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15:56<rane>Eddi|zuHause2: hmm that's a nice idea
15:56<Eddi|zuHause2>which one?
15:57<rane>downloading archived games for new ideas
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16:03<yeti__>what can i do to make a city grow? deliver passengers, mail and goods to them - anything else?
16:04<Rubidium>depends on the climate
16:04<Cipri>What climate?
16:04<yeti__>the 'normal' one
16:04<Rubidium>then that should be everything needed to grow the city
16:05<Cipri>IIRC, having multiple stations in the core really helps. Like set up a local bus route.
16:05<Eddi|zuHause2>the nightly has a setting for city growth, make sure it is not set to 'none'
16:06<yeti__>ah, thank you
16:06<rane>any cool stuff in the nightlies by the way?
16:07<yeti__>"number of towns that will become cities" <- where exactly is the difference?
16:07<Eddi|zuHause2>lots of cool stuff :)
16:07<yeti__>rane: bridges over every kind of track combination, very useful :)
16:07<Eddi|zuHause2>yeti__: "cities" are bigger than "towns"
16:07<Eddi|zuHause2>and grow faster
16:07<Cipri>Selectable Transparancy
16:07<Cipri>ie: Oly transparant trees, or transparant stations.
16:07|-|yeti_ [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
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16:16<yeti__>by the way, what's a good C/C++ development environment for linux? i'd like to get into the ottd code a bit, but it's kinda hard like that: "vim yapf.h - ah, there it calls the function DoSomewhatWithTrain(); grep -r DoSomewhatWithTrain *; vim other_file.c" - what do you guys use?
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16:17<valhallasw>yeti__: I like eclipse
16:17<[Surge]>Can someone help me figure out how to get the "copy and paste " patch into 0.5.1?
16:17<Rubidium>kate + grep or vim + grep or joe + grep
16:18<[Surge]>I'm using Linux so this is from source code.
16:18<[Surge]>It seems that there are missing source files like command_queue which the patch requires. Any ideas?
16:19<yeti__>[Surge]: do you use the right -pX option with patch?
16:19<yeti__>[Surge]: can you point me to the forum thread about that patch?
16:19<[Surge]>I used -p1 as the web site says.
16:19<[Surge]>patch -p1 < patchfile
16:20<Rubidium>[Surge]: what website?
16:20<[Surge]>The wiki
16:20<Eddi|zuHause2>i'd assume -p1 is for the nightly patch, not the 0.5 patch
16:20<Eddi|zuHause2>try with -p0
16:21<[Surge]>Oh ok
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16:21<elmex>(etags + vim + grep is also helpful)
16:21<Frostregen>command_queue.c/h are included in the patchfile
16:24[~][Surge] goes to read man patch to see what the -p paramater does.
16:24<yeti__>Frostregen: is your distant_join_stations.patch already in trunk?
16:24<CIA-2>OpenTTD: rubidium * r9754 /trunk/src/ (12 files): -Codechange: make classes for all vehicle types, so we can make nicer/better maintainable code, i.e. virtual methods instead of switches.
16:24<Rubidium>it tells patch how much of the path in the patches must be scrubbed of.
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16:25<[Surge]>Rubidium: Oh so I obviously wasn't running it in the right dir then.
16:25<Frostregen>yeti__: no, i don't think so
16:25<Eddi|zuHause2>[Surge]: if the patch file has paths like src/xxx.cpp, and you are already in the src directory, you say -p1, so it removes the first directory from the path
16:26<[Surge]>Ah ok - got it. Thanks for the help. It's patched and compiling now. :)
16:26<yeti__>[Surge]: no, look at the .diff, it has no pathnames, so there's nothing to be stripped. that patch can only be run with -p0 :)
16:26<Eddi|zuHause2>if you are in the base directory, you say -p0, so it uses the complete path
16:27<Eddi|zuHause2>0.5 uses the old system, where the .c files are in the base directory, so 0.5 patches are usually -p0
16:27<Eddi|zuHause2>trunk has all source files moved to the src/ directory
16:27<Eddi|zuHause2>so you might want to use -p1 there
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16:29<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause2: not really, because when you add files, you need to be in trunk/ not trunk/src when applying the patch
16:30<Frostregen>thats why he wrote *might* ;)
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16:30<Eddi|zuHause2>exctly :)
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16:53<yeti__>phew... that pathfinder code is way too complicated for me :)
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17:01<yeti__>what is a "Trackdir" supposed to be? track direction? track directory?
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17:04<yeti__>am i right to assume that pathfind.cpp is the old pf, npf.cpp is the new global pathfinder, and yapf/ is (obviously) yapf?
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17:05<KUDr>pathfind.cpp contains also ntp
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17:16<Eddi|zuHause2>"Trackdir" is the 6 possible connections you can build on a tile, plus a direction (forward/backward)
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17:30<elmex>those people in these online games have trains which give 1,000,000 pound with one load
17:30<elmex>crazy, thats all the long distance?
17:32<+glx>long distance long coal trains
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17:32<elmex>or oil, yes
17:32<+glx>with full load
17:32<+glx>works well with goods too
17:33<elmex>why not with eh. grains ?
17:33<Eddi|zuHause2>grain looses value very fast...
17:34<CIA-2>OpenTTD: rubidium * r9755 /trunk/src/ (10 files): -Codechange: refactor some more of the begin loading stuff.
17:34<elmex>ah, i see the graph.
17:34<elmex>so mail, oil, iron ore, coal and steel are best for long-time runs
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17:36<elmex>would be cool to be able to measure how much the value of the cargo was affected by that for a specific track or train
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17:43<yeti__>yeah elmex. that one should not be too difficult to program though :)
17:43<elmex>i gues so
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17:50<Eddi|zuHause2>so, why aren't you at work already? :p
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17:51<CIA-2>OpenTTD: rubidium * r9756 /trunk/src/train_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#755]: LeaveStation wasn't always called when a station was left.
17:52<elmex>i'm sadly a completly timeless (meaning: without time) free software developer with wayyy too many projects and reallife activities :-/
17:52<elmex>and now that i've found ttd i've even less time
17:52<yeti__>Eddi|zuHause2: i am at work already, but sadly i'm not really a free software developer, i'm more the kind of "i have read a C tutorial once" guy ;)
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18:07<Ailure>oh god what server is that
18:07<Ailure>reminds me
18:07<elmex>how to find out?
18:09<Ailure>I had a pircture of a fortres I made in a game
18:09<Ailure>oh god what's up with that 32 bit thread
18:10<Ailure>that's gotta be the first time I laughed seeing a company HQ and a small airport
18:10<Ailure>if I saw that in a game, I would think there was some kind of glitch
18:12<elmex>is there a reason why people build this: ?
18:13<Ailure>maxing company score
18:14<elmex>ah, damn
18:15<elmex>thats an interesting hq:
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18:26<elmex>it's interesting, in the end in multiplayer games everything depends on your skill to lay more-effective routes than others and more effective railroad tracks
18:27<elmex>it's not about whether or whether not make profit - as i initialy thought
18:27<Ammler>Hey, is that legal?
18:28<elmex>depends on the license of the .exe
18:28<elmex>and whetehr the orig. datafiles are with it :)
18:28<valhallasw>it's the 0.5.0 installer by the looks of it
18:28<valhallasw>so yes, probably legal
18:30<+glx>he should at least have a link to the sources
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18:30<elmex>i guess this is one of those not-so-nice-play tactics:
18:32<elmex>i wonder why the servers are so silent all the time ;-/
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18:37<Ailure>depends on the server
18:38|-|Osai changed nick to Osai^zZz
18:38<Ailure>Nowadays I hardly play on servers with no newGRF's
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18:43<elmex>does one need those installed to play?
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18:44<Eddi|zuHause2>if the server has newgrf files, you need the exact same files in your data folder
18:44<elmex>is ther a way to find out which they use?
18:45<Eddi|zuHause2>theoretically, it should say that before you connect
18:45|-|tokai|noir [] has quit [Quit: It's like, wah.]
18:45<Eddi|zuHause2>practically, i never tried
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18:47<Eddi|zuHause2>there was talk about a green (=everything ok), yellow (=missing newgrf) and red (= wrong version) indicator next to the server name
18:47<Ailure>as it works now
18:48<Ailure>green = ok
18:48<Eddi|zuHause2>and there should also be a button that says "newgrf"
18:48<Ailure>yellow = wrong/missing newGRF's
18:48<Ailure>red = wrong version
18:48<elmex>yes, i often get red with the svn versionn
18:49<Eddi|zuHause2>yeah, the game versions must have an exact match, otherwise it is impossible to keep the game in sync
18:50<Ailure>theortically it should be possible if the code changes isn't related to the game-code :p
18:50<Ailure>but that's too risky to try
18:50<Frostregen>practically too
18:51<Ailure>I do reember it's possible to load GRF's statically
18:51<elmex>hm, one should never feel save:
18:51<Ailure>so you can load graphics only GRF's and still be able to play online no matter the newGRF settings
18:51<mikegrb_>is it possible to bribe town officials when they won't let you build a station?
18:52<elmex>mikegrb_: try planting trees
18:52<Ailure>another note on planting trees
18:52<Eddi|zuHause2>that station exit looks like a huge bottleneck... even without the trains it is easily visible
18:52<Ailure>I think it only improves rating if you plant trees in empty tiles
18:52<mikegrb_>thank you
18:52<Ailure>so making forests thicker dosen't help
18:53<Ailure>as far I can see
18:53<Eddi|zuHause2>there's a single signal block that has to be passed by every train
18:53<Eddi|zuHause2>that cannot work out
18:53<elmex>which do you mean?
18:53<Frostregen>the 2 leftmost are separate
18:54<Eddi|zuHause2>behind the power station
18:54<elmex>ah yes, the out-routes
18:54<Eddi|zuHause2>there is a direct connection between the routes
18:54<Frostregen>but the entrance has wrong signals
18:54<Frostregen>ah, behind the smoke...sorry
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18:55<elmex>ah yes
18:55<elmex>i wonder why the train doesnt use the green way
18:55<elmex>(it's not my station, but i'm curious)
18:55<elmex>with that station his 14,000,000 income went negative within one year.
18:56<Eddi|zuHause2>big lockups easily extend through the entire network
18:57<elmex>the only way to clear them is to stop all trains and pull them out manually with signal-ignores eh?
18:57<Frostregen>that should never be necessary
18:57<elmex>(so the connection between the out-routes is what makes the signals become red?)
18:58<elmex>Frostregen: is there an alternative?
18:58<Sionide>what server are you guys on?
18:58<Frostregen>avoid everything what allows loops
18:59<Sionide>what version is it running?
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19:00<Frostregen>if you have no loops, it may get slower, but never will clog completely
19:00<Kodak>hey guys.. i need help with openttd.. gameplay advice
19:00<elmex>that guy must have abandond the game, he's doing nothing and all his money goes to power the trains to be stuck
19:01<Ailure>reminds me what I did in a game
19:01<Eddi|zuHause2>people actually do sleep occasionally :p
19:01<Ailure>I bought exclusive rights in one town
19:01<Ailure>his whole network deadlocked
19:01<Ailure>that was so fun to see
19:01<Frostregen>yes, if you don't use overflow depots
19:01<Kodak>how do i go about removing roads around towns, when the roads have no dead end? they loop back into the town. the local authorities always denies that...
19:02<Sionide>bribe them
19:02<Kodak>but i have excellent ranking
19:02<Eddi|zuHause2>Kodak: go to the patches window, there's an option "allow removal of town road" or something
19:02<Kodak>ah damn, ok thanks
19:02<Kodak>will do
19:02<Sionide>build loads of trees around the town, dunno if that little hack still works or not, but it used to make the town council love you, hehe
19:02<Kodak>yeah, ive done that before :P
19:03<Frostregen>is currently beeing worked on cargo-reservation when loading cargo?
19:03<Kodak>thats not the problem though
19:03<Frostregen>(to allow more than one train loading at once, without disabling fifo)
19:03<Kodak>i can kill roads that have an dead end.. but not those who loop back and doesnt have an end
19:03<Sionide>holy crap
19:03<Eddi|zuHause2>i have seen no attempt to do so
19:04<Sionide>the last revision i have installed is in the r5,000s
19:04<Eddi|zuHause2>there was something about complete rewrite of the loading code :)
19:04<Frostregen>hm, maybe this is part of it
19:04<Frostregen>i hope
19:05<Eddi|zuHause2>which is usually combined with "not enough time"
19:05<Eddi|zuHause2>it's the natural order of things :)
19:05<Frostregen>the only solution i found for this is not really satisfying
19:06<Frostregen>building 2 or more separate stations, which are in vicinity of the factory in question
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19:16<eJoJ>Frostregen what happens if you turn off improved loading algorithm? then more trains load at the same time
19:16<Frostregen>yes, but fifo is off
19:17<Eddi|zuHause2>without improved loading, big stations tend to clog up with half full trains
19:17<Frostregen>you have to relate the number of platforms to the production level
19:18<Eddi|zuHause2>and this is ... suboptimal :)
19:19<eJoJ>anyway, of to play some more on my game
19:20<Eddi|zuHause2>it doesn't really affect me, i rarely have more than 2 platforms loading simultaneously
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19:22<Frostregen>this is true for all, but the 1 factory loading bay in your super network
19:22<Eddi|zuHause2>see, i don't have a "super network" :)
19:22<Eddi|zuHause2>i tend to do more realistic networks
19:23<Frostregen>i'm still getting fun out of optimizing entrances and exits
19:23<Frostregen>but realistic networks may be the next
19:24<Frostregen>with loading working corrently the exits will jam again
19:25<Frostregen>has anyone done some maths about maximum cargo throughput?
19:26<Eddi|zuHause2>maximum in which bounds?
19:27<Frostregen>parameters should be trainlength/cargo per train/trainspeed/no of parallel lines
19:28<Frostregen>or just for 1 line at first ;)
19:28<Eddi|zuHause2>it's difficult...
19:29<Frostregen>should not be
19:29<Eddi|zuHause2>especially when time for leaving/arriving gets longer than time for loading/unloading :)
19:30<Frostregen>assume the station is large enough
19:30<Frostregen>so 1 train is always loading
19:31<Eddi|zuHause2>with gradual loading, all wagons load simultaneously, so train length is irrelevant
19:31<Eddi|zuHause2>(assuming no overhang wagons)
19:31<Frostregen>no, because there are wagons with different length/cargo ratio
19:32<Frostregen>think of a single line, with no space, just trains
19:32<Eddi|zuHause2>but that has nothing to do with train length
19:32<Frostregen>the engine is the packet overhead
19:34<Frostregen>ok, you are right, the first argument had nothing to do with it
19:38<Frostregen>so it is ((cargo/length)*speed)*C
19:39<Frostregen>(cargo/length) = cargo-capacity per tile...
19:44<Eddi|zuHause2>hm, that doesn't look correct
19:45<Eddi|zuHause2>speed per tile is different if you have 2 wagons or 3 wagons on the tile
19:45<Eddi|zuHause2>so you should really count in train length in wagons
19:46<Frostregen>i meant that
19:46<Frostregen>(amount of cargo within one tile) * speed * C
19:47<Frostregen>or do you mean something else?
19:48<Frostregen>if you double the cargo per tile, the throughput doubles too
19:48<Frostregen>like it should be
19:48<Eddi|zuHause2>no, if you have 2 wagons per tile which unload with speed 5, you get a different speed than if you have 3 smaller wagons that have a speed of 4
19:49<Eddi|zuHause2>2*5 = 10 speed per tile
19:49<Eddi|zuHause2>3*4 = 12 speed per tile
19:49<Frostregen>lol, doh
19:49<Frostregen>i was talking about trainspeed
19:49<Frostregen>not loading/unloading speed
19:50<Eddi|zuHause2>what does the train speed do there?
19:50<Frostregen>the result should be the throughput of a single line of track
19:51<Frostregen>if a train is twice as fast, the throughput doubles too
19:51<Frostregen>(as long as loading/unloading times are irrelevant)
19:51<Frostregen>or long track
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19:53<valhallasw>-bash: ./a.out > /dev/null: No such file or directory
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---Logclosed Mon Apr 30 00:00:53 2007