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#openttd IRC Logs for 2007-05-01

---Logopened Tue May 01 00:00:26 2007
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01:43<CIA-2>OpenTTD: peter1138 * r9758 /trunk/src/station_cmd.cpp: -Fix (FS#756): Ignore bit 1 (axis) of station tile layouts
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05:16<TheJosh>good morning/arvo/evening all
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05:33<TheJosh>oh not grr at me.
05:33<TheJosh>hey i fixed a bunch of those issues with my patch. putting into flyspray
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05:39<peter1138>_price.build_town = _price.build_industry * 5;
05:39<peter1138>instead of adding a new price, can it just use build_industry * 5 instead?
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05:40<TheJosh>because the industry initial price is 1000000 and the town initial price is 5000000, so I figure if there is no price info in the savegame, i should try to guess a price
05:40<TheJosh>then people cant change the industry price without affecting the town price
05:40<peter1138>it should stay *5 relatively anyway
05:41<TheJosh>imagine if 1/2 the prices were based on another, and the mess that would cause.
05:41<TheJosh>imagine build a train station = cost of a rail * 1.342
05:42<peter1138>well, build_industry is also used for the existing town actions
05:42<TheJosh>is it?
05:42<peter1138>advertising, statues, road reconstruction, etc
05:43<TheJosh>well i have to savegame bump for the network to work anyway...although that would reduce the code needed for the patch
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05:47<Immow>I made a "giant screenshot" its still thinking lol :)
05:47<peter1138>it means it
05:47<Immow>I made a junction... very large one
05:48<Immow>merging 4 rows of track like a T section
05:48<TheJosh>dont you just love large screenshots?
05:48<Immow>this is taking to long.. I kiled ttd :)
05:49<TheJosh>i meant large mind wanders at this time of nite
05:50<Rubidium>Immow: you should have patience when making a screenshot of the whole map ;)
05:50<TheJosh>i just did a 2048x2048 and pressed CTRL+G
05:50<TheJosh>oh for a love of multitasking, letting it do that while I chat
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05:54<Immow>gimme a sec
05:54<Immow>so I can hear what you experts think about it
05:57<Immow>I am wondering if all those "intbetween" signals are needed
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05:58<Immow>i'm mark em
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06:03<TheJosh>that is an intersection and a half
06:04<TheJosh>my system is done with its screenshot.
06:04<TheJosh>its 802 MB (png)
06:04<Rubidium>good luck opening it ;)
06:05<TheJosh>that 4 4 4 is incredible
06:06<Immow>I got more :)
06:06<Immow>this I designed yesterday
06:06<Immow>took me 2 hours
06:06<TheJosh>im only using 230mb of 1gig of ram, should have space for it.
06:06<TheJosh>i love linux, you can do heaps of stuff and use hardly any ram.
06:07<Immow>shame my school makes it imposible to use linux
06:07<Immow>cos I need a few programs to work with
06:07<Immow>and wine or something does not support it
06:07<TheJosh>im loading it into the gimp right now (and timing the load time)
06:08<Immow>but my question about the signals
06:08<Immow>no one can help me?
06:08<TheJosh>whats the signal question?
06:08<Immow>[12:57] <Immow> I am wondering if all those "intbetween" signals are needed
06:08<Immow>[12:58] <Immow> i'm mark em
06:08<Immow>[12:59] <Immow>
06:09<TheJosh>in my opinion, you cant have too many signals.
06:09<Immow>I ment to say: i'l mark em
06:09<TheJosh>if there are a few more then needed, who cares?
06:09<Immow>I think now a train will wait halfway now there
06:09<Immow>blocking the rest
06:09<TheJosh>try both options.
06:10<TheJosh>see what its like with them, then if you get clogs, remove em
06:10<Immow>now gonna show you my version of 2 on 4
06:11<TheJosh>have fun'
06:12<Immow>my friend found this mod where you can save em as templates
06:13<Immow>this is why i'm going all crazy designing stuff :)
06:19<TheJosh>its almost loaded the image
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06:23<TheJosh>how are you
06:23<TheJosh>i think ttd is cool
06:24<TheJosh>what about you?
06:24<TheJosh>ignore that, that was my sister
06:24<TheJosh>image has loaded, only 18 mins
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07:55<elmex_>can i save online games?
07:55<@Belugas>try :)
07:55<@Belugas>you will see what happens ;)
07:56<elmex_>oh cool
07:57<elmex_>it works
07:59<elmex_>but i wonder how to select the company ;/
08:00<+glx>cheat menu or local server
08:00<elmex_>ah, k
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09:45<elmex_>why is air disallowed on many servers?
09:46<Rubidium>because it's very very easy to make lots and lots of money with them
09:46<Rubidium>it basically makes them a little harder
09:46<peter1138>also because the server owners are evil
09:48<elmex_>hm, so isn't air unbalanced then?
09:50<Rubidium>when you remove all negations from your question: is air balanced -> makes me answer that with no
09:51<Rubidium>double negations are so nice ;)
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10:25<CIA-2>OpenTTD: truelight * r9759 /trunk/src/thread.cpp: -Add: added threading code for MorphOS (tokai)
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10:25<hylje>zomg thread!!
10:25<hylje>for saving i take it?
10:26<TrueBrain>everywhere where threads are used
10:26<TrueBrain>(TGP landscape generation)
10:26<hylje>tgp is threaded?
10:27<Rubidium>TGP uses threads; I would not call it threaded
10:27<hylje>so no arbitrary amount of workers..
10:27<TrueBrain>in fact, the TGP isn't threaded, but the GUI is.. or kind of... uses threads indeed :p
10:27<Rubidium>basically the threads are used to switch between two application 'stacks'
10:28<TrueBrain>I like that description :)
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11:21<Sacro>hmm, what happened to openttd.64.png ?
11:22<Rubidium>nothing AFAIK
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11:25<Sacro>ah, tis in media
11:26<Sacro>i keep redoing the PKGBUILD for ArchLinux
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11:30<Rubidium>Sacro: it has been there for 2 years
11:30<Sacro>Rubidium: has it?
11:31<Sacro>*checkout*/games/openttd/PKGBUILD?rev=HEAD&cvsroot=AUR&only_with_tag=CURRENT&content-type=text/plain is how it is currently built
11:31<Sacro>i quite get amused by the 7 lines of sed...
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11:33<Rubidium>Sacro: it has been there since revision 1601
11:34<Sacro>Rubidium: ahh, well i have just fixed it again, now the icon works, and its called OpenTTD, also the manpage gets installed
11:35<Rubidium>Sacro: it needs to be redone for 0.6 anyway
11:35<CIA-2>OpenTTD: rubidium * r9760 /trunk/src/ (12 files): -Codechange: remove the need for saving some vehicle variables.
11:36<Sacro>Rubidium: what does?
11:36<Rubidium>that pkgbuild
11:37<Sacro>at the bottom is the new one i've just done
11:37<Rubidium>still needs to be redone
11:38<+glx>paths changed
11:38<+glx>(makefilerewrite merge)
11:38<Sacro>grr :(
11:39<Sacro>might write an openttd-svn pkgbuikld
11:40<Sacro>how do i check whats changed then?
11:42<Rubidium>svn diff svn:// svn:// ?
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11:44<Sacro>Rubidium: that will be a big diff
11:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: rubidium * r9761 /trunk/src/economy.cpp: -Codechange: refactor cargo payment out of LoadUnloadVehicle.
11:48<Wolf01>i want to see a big new feature :(
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11:59<peter1138>OpenTTD: Belugas * r9762 /trunk (11 files): -Feature: NewIndustries
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12:01<Digitalfox[Home]>peter1138: you're evil... :( My pents almost get wet..
12:03<@Belugas>... laughter changed to whisper...
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12:17<CIA-2>OpenTTD: belugas * r9762 /trunk/src/ (7 files in 2 dirs):
12:17<CIA-2>OpenTTD: -Feature: Two new difficulty settings : Very low number of towns and very low number of industries
12:17<CIA-2>OpenTTD: Based on FS#289, by pitt2
12:17<@Belugas>as requested
12:17<@Belugas>not a big one though...
12:17<Eddi|zuHause3>yay! :)
12:18<Eddi|zuHause3>many people requested this already :)
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12:25<@Belugas>they are now served :)
12:28<Wolf01>i want rename buoys!
12:31[~]Belugas has a problem with letter H, it seems
12:32<peter1138>you do?
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12:34<@Belugas>you point them ;)
12:37<peter1138>you confuzzle me
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13:01<Patrick>I just popped in to say whoever was inspired by my early crude attempt and merged "very low" industry/town density: nice work :)
13:01<Patrick>I wanted to see it happen but I couldn't pull it off, should make bigmaps more of a challenge without having to use the magic dozer to thin them down
13:02<Patrick>apparently Belugas is the one I owe a pint :)
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13:18<CIA-2>OpenTTD: rubidium * r9763 /trunk/src/ (oldloader.cpp vehicle.cpp): -Codechange/Fix (r9760): don't read the variables that are calculated automatically either.
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14:05<@Belugas>Patrick, it was an easy one :) You've done almost everything...
14:05<Patrick>it was a bit buggy i thought
14:05<Patrick>anyway ,brb
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14:44<Patrick>doing gsoc on something else this summer so I'll probably hhack ottd as well
14:44<Patrick>for a laugh
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14:56<ln->mikk36: situation hot?
14:57<mikk36>what, ln- ?
14:57<ln->the anger from russia
14:58<mikk36>not really i think
14:58<mikk36>there's not really a chance for a war
14:58<mikk36>that would be a dumb move from russians
14:59<mikk36>although, it would test NATO's reaction for the first time
14:59<ln->NATO wouldn't move a finger.
14:59<mikk36>then the whole alliance would be pointless
15:00<ln->not entirely, i suppose you are paying them a lot of money.
15:00<mikk36>well, we are full member
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15:01<mikk36>other than nato/war topic, we also have an... asshole mayor
15:02<mikk36>who is did nothing to prevent those riots in the city
15:02<mikk36>who did*
15:03<mikk36>but rather was supporting them
15:03<mikk36>and was only blaiming our prime minister
15:03<mikk36>in... everything...
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15:11<mikk36>last days it has been rather calm in the contrary :)
15:11<mikk36>and as the head of police stated, the crime has been lower than usually :P
15:12<Immow>I think I finished my 4 4 4 4 junction
15:12<Immow>58 by 58 tiles
15:13<mikk36>gj, take a beer to congratulate yourself :)
15:13<mikk36>i would take one for you too, but i can't
15:14<mikk36>state prohibited sales of alcoholic beverages until 3rd may
15:14<mikk36>because of russian riots
15:14<Immow>thats a shame
15:14<mikk36>personally i hate those russians, who hate the state and still live here
15:15<Immow>people that dont help building something are not realy nice yes
15:15<mikk36>those who learn estonian and respect the state... those i respect back
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15:15<Immow>that what makes a country is a group of people with same goal of helping one another out
15:15<hylje>Immow: i was expecting a 4x4 mainline junction
15:16<Immow>I found one on wiki page
15:16<Eddi|zuHause3>that junction has joins before splits...
15:16<Immow>but it has many corners and area's that are not good
15:16<mikk36>uhm, Immow
15:17<mikk36>ahh, nothing
15:17<Eddi|zuHause3>i once designed a (3+3)x(3+3) junction
15:18<Eddi|zuHause3>it was pretty spaghetti
15:18<Immow>got a picture of it?
15:18<Eddi|zuHause3>i don't know where...
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15:37<Eddi|zuHause3>it's probably not very good
15:38<Eddi|zuHause3>and it looks better zoomed in, but it doesn't fit into the screen...
15:39<yeti_>but it's definitely huge :D
15:39<myrka>could you take giant scrshot with more zoom
15:39<Eddi|zuHause3>no, the map is too large
15:39<myrka>but yes
15:39<myrka>its huge (:
15:39<yeti_>giant screenshot on 2048*2048 with full zoom will probably be over 250MB ;)
15:39<yeti_>and will take half an hour to take
15:40<Eddi|zuHause3>by my count, it is 64x66 tiles (from first split to last join)
15:40<Rubidium>yeti_: actually more like 800 MB
15:41<myrka>going to compile ottd again
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15:41[~]Rubidium doesn't want to know what happens in 32bpp OTTD with giant screenshot at 2048x2048 ;)
15:42<yeti_>by the way, when i activate fast forward, i randomly get 'lockups' of about 10 secs, the game will run, but freeze my PC, i can't make any input in those 10 sec. (regardless which mapsize, but larger maps will make it worse)
15:43<yeti_>i have a p4 2.4 ghz with 1G of ram, running kubuntu linux
15:43<Rubidium>randomly like monthly?
15:43<yeti_>no, it's not the autosave
15:43<Eddi|zuHause3>the better idea would be to make a virtual screen that is larger than the actual screen, and make a screenshot from there
15:43<Eddi|zuHause3>but i don't know how to do that...
15:44<yeti_>Rubidium: i'm not sure whether it's monthly, but it's definitely not autosave because it's not active
15:44<Rubidium>what version are you running?
15:45<yeti_>had that problem with 0.5.1 as well as with nightly 9734 as well as with latest trunk
15:45<yeti_>no AI in that game, in other games AI intelligence set to low
15:46<yeti_>new alpha AI not active
15:46<Rubidium>the 'problem' is that I do not have that problem
15:46<Rubidium>so I can only guess
15:47<yeti_>which linux distro/kernel are you running?
15:47<yeti_>(on what cpu?)
15:47<Rubidium>you're absolutely sure there is no rogue background process
15:48<Eddi|zuHause3>i never tried fast forward, but my (miniin) game with around 150 trains already hits 100% CPU on a similar powered pc
15:48<yeti_>pretty sure, yeah... i'm gonna try to reproduce it while looking at top
15:48<Rubidium>Debian lenny a.k.a. sid running 2.6.21 with a P-M 1.6 @ 600 MHz
15:51<Rubidium>and I'm running the worst possible binaries you can think of... the ones without any inlining/optimizations done
15:52<+glx>aka full debug build :)
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15:55<yeti_>t's not fair! now that i want to reproduce it, it runs smoothly..... well, as long as it continues to do so, i won't complain :)
15:56<yeti_>timidity takes really freaky amounts of cpu though given that it's only responsible for playing ttd music... 25% cpu!
15:56<Rubidium>timidity sucks
15:57<yeti_>is there anything else i can use instead?
15:59<myrka>yakuake has some problems with x
15:59<myrka>cant start ottd from there
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16:06<Immow>Eddi|zuHause3 it looks oke but some junctions are not build for speed
16:07<Immow>in your design :)
16:07<Eddi|zuHause3>how much speed?
16:07<ln->why hadn't i heard about the place called Llívia before?
16:08<Immow>its just trains slow down there
16:08<Eddi|zuHause3>i tried to avoid 2x45° turns
16:09<Eddi|zuHause3>and with wagonspeedlimit, the ultra-high-speed stuff is a non-issue
16:10<Immow>oh wait
16:10<Immow>its optical illusion
16:11<Immow>then all is oke :)
16:11<Immow>but I never had 2 3 lane tracks before
16:12<Immow>looks interesting
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16:27<Tefad>i pre-render the midi-music
16:27<Tefad>then just have a media player do it in the background.
16:27<Tefad>flac/vorbis uses much less CPU than midi rendering ; )
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16:36<Eddi|zuHause3>midi music already played on 386 pcs with less than 33MHz, there is absolutely no reason why it uses 25% of a 2.4GHz pc
16:37<ln->back in those days sound cards played midi with hardware.
16:43<Tefad>yeah, back in the day.. i had FM synth...
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16:44<Tefad>Eddi|zuHause3: sound cards rarely have drivers that support fully accelerated midi.
16:44<Tefad>(now anyway)
16:48<Eddi|zuHause3>Tefad: that is not the issue, even emulation should not take that much processing power
16:48<Immow>midi sux anyway's
16:49<Eddi|zuHause3>midi has to be used correctly, then it does not suck
16:49<Immow>but then soundcard is very exspensive no?
16:49<Eddi|zuHause3>no, the expensive thing is not the card, but the sample sounds
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16:54<Tefad>Eddi|zuHause3: so turn off all the timidity options.
16:56<ln->timidity is somehow strange...
16:56<ln->it doesn't do any buffering or something
16:58<ln->on my sempron 2500+, doing almost anything (such as switching to another window) causes timidity's sound to interrupt for a fraction of a second.
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17:20<TheJosh>Hello all
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17:35<TheJosh>peter1138: I made those changes you suggested to my patch (removed _prices.build_town)
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18:09<TheJosh>meh im off, its too boring here (everyone must be asleep)
18:09<Touqen>I'm awake
18:10<ln->who has been to barcelona?
18:10[~]Touqen has never left the united states :/
18:10[~]ln- plans to visit the united states before it closes it borders from all foreigners.
18:11<ln->it -> its
18:11<TheJosh>what time is it there Touqen?
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18:11<Touqen>It's 19:11 on the east coast.
18:12<TheJosh>7 at night?
18:12<TheJosh>its 8:45 here (central australian time)
18:12<Sacro|Laptop>its 00:13 here
18:13<ln->that 30 minute difference is so bizarre.
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18:14<TheJosh>I know, but meh
18:14<ln->i'm not blaming you for it.
18:14<TheJosh>South Australia must think there Microsoft, being different just because they can
18:15<Touqen>I'm sure that they have a legitimate reason for it.
18:15<Touqen>I think it's because they don't want to split up territorties in the middle with regular 1 hour timezones
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18:16<TheJosh>probably. our states are fairly tight-knit, there are pleanty of people who would live in one state but work in another
18:17<TheJosh>although there is a SA/VIC rivallry (although its only when it comes to Footy)
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18:19<TheJosh>we even have a town that is physically in VIC, but is so far from anything in VIC that they use SA time, SA road rules etc etc. (they are basically SA)
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18:29<Eddi|zuHause3>i think there is a village in austria, and it is in a valley, and the only road connection out of the village leads through the border to germany
18:30<TheJosh>Thats cool
18:31<ln->00:07 < ln-> why hadn't i heard about the place called Llívia before?
18:31<Eddi|zuHause3>wtf is this place?
18:31<ln->Llívia is a Spanish village/town which is surrounded by France.
18:31<Eddi|zuHause3>the double l thing sounds very celtic
18:31<ln->something like 2 km separates it from the rest of the Spain.
18:32<Eddi|zuHause3>yeah, i heard of this place, just did not know the name
18:33<Eddi|zuHause3>there was some bizarre story about it, but i forgot it
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18:34<ln->the picture doesn't say what the big gray thing is, but it's certainly not the whole spain, in case someone wondered.
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18:39<mikk36>ln-, u were commenting a bit about our "happenings" here in estonia :P
18:39<mikk36>nice text in there :P
18:40<mikk36>The UN responded by blowing soap bubbles, as always. "Loooook! Preeeettyyyy buuubbles! Looove, peeace and conciliaaation!"
18:40<ln->it is not completely from neutral point of view :)
18:42<mikk36>it's not
18:42<mikk36>but it's great text :)
18:42<mikk36>though, i like his pov
18:42<mikk36>and i have to agree with him
18:43<mikk36>this is what i as an estonian feel
18:45<TheJosh>ln-: Have you seen my latest patch?
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18:47<TheJosh>what about you mikk36
18:47<mikk36>that gardistan is some finnish artist
18:47<mikk36>what about me ?
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18:49<TheJosh>mikk36: have you seen my latest patch>
18:49<mikk36>oh, i've not been into ottd lately
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18:52<mikk36>nice idea :)
18:52<mikk36>where is the button for it ?
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18:52<mikk36>to create it
18:52|-|HMage [~HMage@] has quit [Read error: No route to host]
18:52<TheJosh>its in the menu for 'town directory'
18:52<mikk36>ok :)
18:53<TheJosh>i updated it this morning with more bugfixes
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18:56<TheJosh>mikk36: do you know how to svn, patch, compile, etc?
18:57<mikk36>i know the basics but i've not patched/compiled openttd myself successfully
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18:57<mikk36>though i have done some stuff with svn
18:57<mikk36>with another problem
18:57<mikk36>to fetch scripts
18:58<TheJosh>what OS are you running?
18:59<TheJosh>windows or *nix?
19:00<mikk36>no 3dsmax nor games for *nix :)
19:00<mikk36>otherwise i'd be in *nix...
19:00<TheJosh>sorry I cant help much then. I guess you would get the latest from svn, apply my patch (i dont know of a windows tool that can do this, but they probably exist) and then compile (visual c++ ??)
19:00<mikk36>propably using gentoo :P
19:01<mikk36>well, i aint going to try it out :)
19:01<TheJosh>im on debian 4.0 (sarge) at the moment, and i have a gentoo machine as well and a slackware server (and another slackware server at my church)
19:04<TheJosh>gotta love remote access. im working on the slackware server at my church right as we speak
19:04<mikk36>i have my xp, then server 2003 on a serverhost (server-housing)
19:04<TheJosh>and worrying because my gentoo box has just had a harddrive failure
19:04<mikk36>i had one failure too about a week ago :P
19:04<mikk36>or rather 1.5
19:04<Tefad>. . .
19:05<mikk36>mechanics gave up
19:05<mikk36>about a month and a half after buying it
19:05<Tefad>i'm remote accessing my server right now, to IRC from.
19:05<Tefad>it, however, is also under my desk
19:05<TheJosh>i think its hdd failure. disks are old (2x 4gig) and now it cant read the reiser partition
19:05<Tefad>but i can access it from anywhere, which is convenient
19:05<mikk36>lost almost 150 gigs of movies, series and cd/dvd images :P
19:06<TheJosh>i need some not 6 year old disks
19:06<Tefad>i refuse to use maxtor for a while
19:06<TheJosh>oh well, ill put them on the 'to shoot' pile
19:06<mikk36>lemme check it's manufacturing time
19:06<mikk36>5 Apr 95 :)
19:06<mikk36>still working nicely
19:07<Tefad>heh, i have some disks like that
19:07<mikk36>WD Caviar 1425
19:07<Tefad>i think most of my machine's root FS is one some tiny disk
19:07<mikk36>426.8MB xD
19:07<Tefad>machines' root FSs. meh
19:07<mikk36>the only reason i don't use it in my router is that it's loud as hell
19:07<Tefad>so spin it down after bootup?
19:07<TheJosh>disk didnt fail
19:08<mikk36>Tefad, no can do
19:08<TheJosh>power cord had come partially out, reiser is now self-repairing (i love reiser)
19:08<mikk36>pfsense writes data constantly to hdd
19:08<Tefad>what is your router doing?.. blah
19:08<Tefad>make it write to ramdisk and sync once per day or something
19:08<mikk36>m0n0wall can stop it, because it doesn't log etc...
19:09<Tefad>or hell, usb flash drives are cheap enough
19:09<mikk36>but then again, i like when stuff gets logged
19:09<mikk36>latency, speed etc data
19:09<mikk36>up to 1 year back or so
19:09<Digitalfox[Home]>mikk36: I know what is to lost a hdd that you use for data, like movies, music, games, tv-series, documents, etc.. I lost a 160x2 RAID-0 = 320GB of data 2 years ago... Or on other words i lost everything i was collecting for 6 years
19:09<mikk36>on graphics
19:09<Tefad>i think 1GB flashdisk is US$15 pretty much anywhere
19:09<mikk36>Digitalfox[Home], that drive was in raid0 :)
19:09<Tefad>Digitalfox[Home]: RAID-0 is a bad idea.
19:10<mikk36>but it unpacked and copied data fast as hell :P
19:10<Tefad>0+1 FTW.
19:10<mikk36>true :)
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19:10<mikk36>luckily i've restored most of the data i lost
19:11<Tefad>or 5
19:11<mikk36>from friends etc
19:11<Tefad>5 sucks for writing little pieces all over the place though (eg fast torrents)
19:11<Digitalfox[Home]>Raid = 0 is not a bad idea, the problem was a hardware failure of the 2 disks... I received 2 new discs for that problem from + seagate also send me another 2 other discs has compensation.. So i lost the data and receive 4 new disks
19:11<Tefad>RAID 0 goes down with a single failure.
19:12<Tefad>it doesn't matter if both failed or not..
19:12<TheJosh>the trick to raid 0 is good disks. disks are good for about 2 years
19:12<Digitalfox[Home]>Tefad: Yes, but it was in my case the 2 disks that failed..
19:12<Tefad>positive both failed and not just one?
19:12<Tefad>the FS gets corrupted if either die
19:12<mikk36>lucky one :P
19:12<TheJosh>you can do just about anthing with a disk in the first 2 years
19:12<Digitalfox[Home]>well i did win 4 new 200 GB disks from segate..
19:13<TheJosh>any serious web/serving company ditches there disks every 2 years
19:13<Tefad>if they're using craptastic IDE, then yes
19:13<mikk36>well, if a disk last, it will last long
19:13<Tefad>quite a few SCSI disks have a giant MTBF
19:13<mikk36>if a disk lasts*
19:13<TheJosh>good point
19:14<mikk36>if it's a bad one, it will fail quickly under big loads for long times
19:14<Tefad>also RAID 5 or 6 with reserve disks are extremely reliable
19:14<TheJosh>when i get a new server im going to get probably 4 sata 320gig disks
19:14<mikk36>still 320 ?
19:14<TheJosh>320 has about the best price per gig at the moment
19:15<Tefad>i remember when my 1.6GB was $200
19:15<TheJosh>the 500s are still too much per gig
19:15<mikk36>1245/320 =
19:15<mikk36>yup, ok
19:15<TheJosh>what is 1245?
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19:16<mikk36>strangely, 320 ones have dropped a lot
19:17<Digitalfox[Home]>My next upgrade, will be with 1 Terabyte disks on a raid 0 :)
19:17<Tefad>asking for failure again ; )
19:17<mikk36>1245 EEK is €79.6
19:17<Digitalfox[Home]>But I'll wait a bit longer, waiting for the technology to age
19:18<mikk36>one more thing
19:18<mikk36>TheJosh, where do u live ?
19:18<mikk36>EU or US ?
19:18<mikk36>there aren't those damn EU taxes :P
19:19<TheJosh>1 Australian dollar = 0.8282 U.S. dollars
19:19<TheJosh>wow our dollar has risen a few
19:19<mikk36>and how much is the cheapest 320GB Seagate 7200.10 offer ?
19:19<TheJosh>1 Estonian kroon = 0.087092841 U.S. dollars
19:19<mikk36>SATA ofc
19:19<Tefad>more like the US is dropping.
19:20<TheJosh>ill check
19:20<TheJosh>1 Euro = 1.3627 U.S. dollars
19:20<Sacro>whats it to £?
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19:21<mikk36>104USD is the cheapest here
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19:21<mikk36>Sacro, use google
19:21<mikk36>and it's calculator
19:21<Sacro>dropped to $1.9951
19:21<TheJosh>type 'pound' into google
19:21<Sacro>i just do "1 £ in $"
19:21<mikk36>1 usd in gbp
19:22<TheJosh>$155 for a segate 320gig 16meg cache sata-ii
19:22<TheJosh>although i will probably go WD
19:22<mikk36>AUD or USD ?
19:22<mikk36>so it's even more expensive there ? :D
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19:23<TheJosh>thats a good one though (sataII and 16meg cache)
19:23<Tefad>sataII isn't the correct term
19:24<TheJosh>but for only $165AUD i can get the top-of-the-line western digital 320gig one
19:24<mikk36>1201 EEK ~ 104USD
19:24<TheJosh>i know sataII is wrong but its easier to say
19:24<mikk36>and that's a WD one
19:24<mikk36>3USD difference :P
19:25<Tefad>sata 3Gbps eh?
19:25<Tefad> : D
19:25<Tefad>it's 3Gbps.
19:25<mikk36>it's 300MBps
19:25<Tefad>3Gbps of raw data rate.
19:25<mikk36>ahh damn
19:26<Tefad>actual file throughput is something like 250MB/s burst
19:26<Tefad>and disks don't even go that fast yet.. i think the fastest now is still less than 90MB/s sustained.
19:27<TheJosh>That disk has a 5 year warranty, thats the bit i like (for my server)
19:27<mikk36>Sata150 is 1.5Gbps but max transfer is 150MBps
19:27<Tefad>also failure again
19:27<Tefad>1.5Gbps or about 125MB/s
19:27<mikk36>Taking into account 8b10b coding overhead, the actual uncoded transfer-rate is 1.2 Gbit/s, or 150 megabytes per second (MB/s).
19:27<Tefad>and remember there's some loss when converting from bandwidth to transfer speed.
19:27<mikk36>see ? :D
19:28<Tefad>there's also protocol overhead
19:29<Tefad>in any event, it is a giant mess for terminology.
19:29<mikk36>but the actual max transfer speed (including overhead) is still 150/300MB/s
19:29<Tefad>using bytes is misleading
19:29<mikk36>it's what you get out of it
19:29<Tefad>bytes generally relate to file transfer rates
19:30<Tefad>i cannot count how many times people get it screwed up for network bandwidth measurements and file throughput....
19:30<mikk36>that is a different story
19:30<Tefad>not really
19:31<mikk36>here it's that 8b10b thingie
19:31<Tefad>gigabit ethernet uses the same 8b10b.
19:31<Digitalfox[Home]>So with RAID-0 and 2 Disks SATA 2, You almost get 200MB of speed/s
19:31<TheJosh>i dont care too much what the numbers are, as long as the throughput is high and the seek is low
19:31<mikk36>Digitalfox[Home], nope
19:31<mikk36>your first would have to get a disk that would do 100MB/s alone
19:31<Digitalfox[Home]>mikk36: No?
19:31<Tefad>164MB/s approx.
19:31<mikk36>which does not exist yet
19:31<Tefad>at peak.
19:32<Tefad>average will probably be something around 100MB/s
19:32<mikk36>with sata1 and usual disks i got 90MB/s
19:32<Tefad>still pretty fast.
19:32<Digitalfox[Home]>Hum... Ok..
19:32<Tefad>sata-300 doesn't offer much at the moment
19:32<Tefad>but with sataII enhancements, users can connect more than one drive to a channel
19:33<mikk36>enhancements ?
19:33<Tefad>eSATA will be useful too.
19:33<TheJosh>and there is also sata native queing
19:33<mikk36>aka NCQ
19:33<mikk36>native command queueing
19:33<Tefad>NCQ doesn't improve single file performance if disk is defragmented
19:33<Tefad>it can actually hinder performance slightly ; )
19:34<mikk36>defragmentation is never good
19:34<Tefad>but in general NCQ is advantageous
19:34<mikk36>and can never be fighted without defragmenting the drive
19:34<Tefad>defragmentation on near-full disks is unavoidable
19:34<TheJosh>dont you mean fragmentation
19:34<mikk36>well, then just don't fill it up that much
19:35<Tefad>also age of the filesystem affects fragmentation
19:35<Tefad>appending to files, etc.
19:35<TheJosh>although ext3 self-defragments (i dont know about reiser)
19:35<Tefad>i don't think any file system self-defragments
19:35<mikk36>isn't that in every partition in linux ?
19:35<TheJosh>juts by design (because of the file cache
19:35<mikk36>a feature of the kernel
19:35<Tefad>ext3 avoids fragmenting..
19:35<Tefad>ext3 is slow as hell though
19:35<Tefad>NTFS-3g even outperforms it.
19:36<Tefad>(that is, NTFS on linux)
19:36<Tefad>it is possible to use NTFS as your root and boot disk in linux now.
19:36<TheJosh>me, i like reiser. cant wait for reiser4
19:36<mikk36>for some reason
19:36<Tefad>isn't reiser in jail
19:36<mikk36>suse dropped using reiser
19:36<TheJosh>does grub support ntfs?
19:36<mikk36>and now defaults back to ext2
19:36<Tefad>doesn't need to
19:37<Sacro>no, it doesn't
19:37<TheJosh>how can you boot a ntfs partition then?
19:37<Tefad>ntfs supports the hooks that grub uses to find block offsets.
19:37<Sacro>you'd have to use an alternate bootloader
19:37<mikk36>chainload to windows' boot loader
19:37<Tefad>do what?
19:37<Sacro>you could have an ext3 /boot
19:37<mikk36>grub forwards booting to windows' boot loader
19:37<Sacro>but have / as ntfs
19:37<mikk36>to boot windows
19:37<TheJosh>i usually bave a small (< 30meg) boot partition thats ext2 so anything can read it
19:37<Tefad>i'm saying use NTFS as linux root file system
19:37<Tefad>TheJosh: me too
19:37<mikk36>u can't i guess
19:38<Tefad>oh, and boot file system
19:38<TheJosh>i try to keep my systems compadible so i can restore them easier
19:38<mikk36>though, using ext2 for windows is possible :P
19:38<mikk36>using hacks
19:38<TheJosh>you can boot any of my systems using a vanilla kernel
19:38<Tefad>booting from NTFS is pretty straightforward
19:39<Tefad>but using it for root requires initrd.
19:39<Tefad>since NTFS-3g is started in userspace.
19:39<mikk36>i'll return to 3d now
19:39<Tefad>however if you boot from evms, you're using an initrd anyway
19:40<TheJosh>i guess if you wanted to be really compadible you would use vfat for your /boot
19:40<TheJosh>then you could repair linux from a win98 boot disk
19:40<Tefad>heh, is that possible? : x
19:41<TheJosh>yeah, grub can read vfat i think
19:41<Tefad>i use an ultimate boot cd for generic repairs
19:41<Tefad>if i know i'm going to fix a linux box, i usually use some linux install/live cd
19:41<TheJosh>basically if your bootloader can read it, you can use it
19:41<Tefad>you mean the booloader writer
19:41<TheJosh>me too, i have a LFS cd that I use
19:42<TheJosh>depends where you put the bootloader. i usually install grub to the MBR
19:42<Tefad>usually bootloaders don't even bother with filesystems.. they just have a chunk of blocks in a predefined location of the disk and works from there.
19:43<TheJosh>but grub is a bit different, its like a mini os. my favourite feature of it is the command line (with tab completion!)
19:43<Tefad>the OS is what has filesystem drivers
19:43<Tefad>this is why i don't use grub ; )
19:43<TheJosh>grub also has a menu
19:43<Tefad>lilo can be configured in interesting ways too
19:44<TheJosh>but press 'c' and you have a command line that you can use to boot just about anything (if you know the commands)
19:45<TheJosh>i have winxp on a secondary hard disk, but windows can boot from secondary disks, but grub has a feature that virtually swaps the disks, so in my grub.conf i have, under the windowsxp menu item, swap (hd1) (hd0), before the lines that make windows boot
19:46<Tefad>(i don't use windows, so most of this doesn't mean anything to me)
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19:47<TheJosh>i usually dont, its there for movie maker
19:47<Tefad>NTFS-3G is in active development and is even regarded as Stable
19:47<Tefad>is that for transcoding?
19:47<TheJosh>no i make movies your our church youth group, promotional videos, etc
19:47<Tefad>ah. my friend was poking around with cinerella the other day
19:47<Tefad>it exploded promptly.
19:48<mikk36>cinerella ?
19:48<Tefad>non-linear video editing
19:48<Tefad>open source
19:49<mikk36>and what does that "non-linear" mean ?
19:49<mikk36>groovy ?
19:49<Tefad>it means you can overlap segments and the like
19:49<Tefad>do rotations/effects bla bla bla
19:50<TheJosh>im going to check it out now
19:50<mikk36>aint that usual stuff in most video editing tools ?
19:50<mikk36>usually called effects
19:50<Tefad>i think most video editing tools are non-linear
19:50<Tefad>the ones i use involve optimizing encoding
19:50<Tefad>and they're quite linear
19:50<Tefad>most of them are command line based.
19:51<mikk36>well, encoding can be done using basic tools
19:51<mikk36>for which i prefer virtualdub
19:51<Tefad>those are linear editors.
19:51<Tefad>now you understand
19:51<TheJosh>i like command line, except for a few things
19:51<Tefad>webbrowsing.. media editing...
19:51<mikk36>i'd prefer to call cinerella a video studio then :)
19:51<Tefad>most things that involve only text.. i use CLI for
19:52<TheJosh>i know people who hate vi, but i like vi
19:52<Tefad>i hate vi ; )
19:52<Tefad>i hate emacs
19:52<TheJosh>although if i have a gui i use it, im not crazy
19:52<mikk36>i don't hate vi
19:52<mikk36>i just don't use it if i can use smth else
19:52<TheJosh>actually vi drives my crazy, i like vim
19:52<Tefad>i've not met a text editor that i could say i like.
19:52<mikk36>i like nano :)
19:52<Tefad>in windows, i use crimson editor
19:53<TheJosh>just make one (yate: yet another text editor)
19:53<Tefad>i like its column mode.
19:53<Tefad>i don't dislike joe enough to make my own.
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19:54<TheJosh>vim all the way
19:54<Tefad>and the only reason i don't like joe much is because i've not bothered to learn how to configure it via file.
19:54<Tefad>i like joe.. i can use shift+arrows to make text selections.
19:54<Tefad>but it doesn't seem to work when i'm using a text-mode console.
19:55<TheJosh>i only know how to do about 5 things with vim (save, quit, and regex
19:55<Tefad>more than i
19:55<Tefad>!q or wq
19:56<TheJosh>:w for save :q for quit :q! for quit without save / for regex
19:56<TheJosh>n for next regex match
19:57<Tefad>sounds like less ; )
20:02<TheJosh>me h im off
20:02<TheJosh>cya round
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20:47<Digitalfox[Home]>Can anybody explain me, what does "Fund local road reconstruction" Does besides making my buses become crazy traped in roads with holes?? I mean what does it really for you?
20:50<HMage`>I suspect it is a way to disrupt bus service for competitor's town
21:02<Digitalfox[Home]>And that's the only real benefict? Nothing more, like town rating going up or anything?
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21:28<Phazorx>is there a way in openttd to take ascreenshot of whole map?
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23:12<mikk36>Phazorx, giant screenshot
23:15<Phazorx>that is not really a map
23:15<Phazorx>hard to deal with 65Kx32K screenshot anyway
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---Logclosed Wed May 02 00:00:06 2007