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#openttd IRC Logs for 2007-05-03

---Logopened Thu May 03 00:00:44 2007
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03:09<Wolf01> horrible vision...
03:12<Wolf01>those aquaducts...
03:12<peter1138>shame about the glitches
03:14<Wolf01>they have no deepth, used without criteria, glitches
03:14<peter1138>all bridges are a visual hack anyway
03:14<peter1138>and tunnel entrances
03:14<Wolf01>yeah, but they (aquaducts) are the most evident
03:15<peter1138>just imagine the aqueduct has a curved bottom
03:16<Wolf01>brr build over tunnel entrances without basetunnels
03:17<Wolf01>yes, but aquaducts, and all other bridges, should be built 2 levels over the terrain IF there is something under
03:18<peter1138>yes, and like all other bridges that restriction doesn't exist yet
03:19<Wolf01>i know that something was tried with the first version of the magic bridges patch, where you were able to build a bridge over a bridge but if under there was not a pillar or you had to find an higher point
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03:26<peter1138>first version?
03:28<Wolf01>i have it
03:28<peter1138>the first version is ancient and was abandonned
03:28<peter1138>the second version is what we've got
03:30<peter1138>- Fix: [YAPF] RVs can now find depot they are currently in (thanks Darkvater)
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03:30<Wolf01>its around it, it was removed soon
03:30<peter1138>it was merged once, reverted, and then merged again
03:30<peter1138>that's the second version
03:30<peter1138>all of it
03:32<Wolf01>i remember in that version you were able to build bridges over stations (single track only, but you were able to place stations under bridges) and over bridges
03:33<peter1138>yes, that stuff was fixed
03:34<EdwardTLS>hi you all
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05:45<rane>DaleStan: i figured "signal related" would be enough of a detail
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05:59<peter1138>usually signal bugs are just 'non-expected' behaviour
06:02<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r9772 /trunk/src/vehicle.cpp: -Fix [r9770,FS#761]: under some circumstances loading/unloading didn't work (correctly).
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06:13<peter1138>rane, so something more specific, perhaps...
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07:07<maddy>Brianetta: you're here?
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07:23<Brianetta>maddy: I am here
07:27<maddy>can you reset the game (once more) pls :D
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07:31<RobertGrammig>Ive got a town with 90% passenger and mail coverage and big good supply but it just wont grow... what possible reasons are there?
07:31<RobertGrammig>each time I make the commercial building funding town size rises for some time but then drops again
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07:36<maddy>Brianetta: still there?
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07:42<Patrick>have you got buses driving circles in the town?
07:43<Patrick>or is that the coverage thing
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07:50<Eddi|zuHause3>RobertGrammig: towns in snow need food, and towns in desert need food and water
07:51<Eddi|zuHause3>and if you play the nightly, check the patch setting for town growth, it might be set to "none"
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08:08<Brianetta>maddy: Still here.
08:09<maddy>Brianetta: can you reset the game please?
08:09<Brianetta>I need a little more info than that
08:11<maddy>Brianetta's standard
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08:36<maddy>Brianetta: the server is still starting up?
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10:55<elmex>is there any official openttd game server?
10:55<Rubidium>TrueBrain: the question is ambiguous
10:56<TrueBrain>that is just the listing of the servers :)
10:56<TrueBrain>Rubidium: it sure is, so I answer with the easiest reply ;)
10:56<Phazorx>DEBUG(net, 0, "Trying to execute a packet in the past!");
10:56<Rubidium> <- *_dedicated are 'official' openttd servers ;)
10:57<TrueBrain>Rubidium: even worse: any server online is most likely an 'official' openttd game server :p
10:57<Phazorx>network.cpp 1201 9769
10:57<TrueBrain>besides the one with a M of course :)
10:57<Phazorx>dont see anything in the logn for that being fixed
10:57<TrueBrain>it doesn't happen often that we fix things that are there to prevent errors
10:59<Rubidium>Phazorx: did a game of you trigger that debug message?
10:59<Phazorx>Rubidium: assert after that
10:59<Phazorx>we have major desync at coopers server
10:59<Phazorx>with 73 and 76
11:00<Phazorx>updating to 79 now
11:00<Phazorx>but i dont see anything in logs affecting entwork
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11:00<TrueBrain>when you see that debug line, something is pretty wrong
11:00<Rubidium>73, 76 and 79?
11:00<peter1138>old revisions :)
11:00<TrueBrain>no wonder it fails :p
11:01<Rubidium>but where do the 73, 76 and 79 come from?
11:02<Rubidium>as it cannot be 9773, 9776 etc.
11:04<elmex>hm, sometimes big parts of the langscape change height randomly, is that the AI that tries something?
11:04<TrueBrain>elmex: most likely
11:06<+glx>AI doesn't pay for landscaping
11:07[~]peter1138 idly wonders what revision AI landscaping got broken...
11:07<peter1138>or maybe i'm wrong in remembering it not doing that...
11:07[~]Rubidium guesses since TGP
11:08<TrueBrain>nah, it always was 'broken'
11:08<TrueBrain>randomly changing landscape massive
11:08<+glx>but TGP is worse for AI
11:08<TrueBrain>that is true
11:10<elmex>i;ve once killed the station of an AI that was in progress of building a track from it by buying up land that was freed from his track when backtracking
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11:15<Phazorx>Rubidium: it is 9773 9776 abd 9779
11:15<Phazorx>which are pretty recent
11:15<Phazorx>and i dont see entwork code changes inbetween
11:17<Phazorx>70still desyncs :/
11:19<Rubidium>how can 9779, 9776 or 9773 desync?
11:20<Phazorx>apparently very easy
11:20<Phazorx>server just been restarted with 79
11:20<Rubidium>we're only at 9772...
11:20<Phazorx>and we got players dropping already
11:20<Phazorx>make these 7s - 6s
11:21<Phazorx>66 63
11:21<Rubidium>when did the desyncs happen?
11:21<Rubidium>*start to happen
11:23<eJoJ>9734 was the first one I noticed it in
11:25<Phazorx>Rubidium: hard to say
11:25<eJoJ>Phazorx: did it not start in the chaos game?
11:26<Rubidium>is only a subset of users desyncing?
11:26<eJoJ>becouse i did not see anything of it in 9712 wich was the one we used before that
11:26<Eddi|zuHause3><Phazorx> and i dont see entwork code changes inbetween <- desyncs are extremely rarely caused by the network code, usually they are signs of inconsistencies in the game code
11:28<Rubidium>how easily is it reproducable?
11:28<TrueBrain>if we are talking about the error above, it most likely is one client who is fucking things up
11:28<Rubidium>or rather, can you make it reproducable?
11:30<Phazorx>well one of players still cant join
11:30<Phazorx>if i may ask - some of you try to get to coop sandbox?
11:30<Rubidium>he desyncs immediatelly?
11:30<Phazorx>it runs 69 now
11:30<Phazorx>well if it desyncs - play can not join for a while normally
11:30<Phazorx>i got dropped and then desynced 4 times after that
11:31<Phazorx>when we upgraded
11:31<Eddi|zuHause3>if you desync repeatedly right after load, it indicates, that someting is not saved correctly
11:31<Rubidium>what we need to make it anywhere debuggable is a server savegame that you load in the server which desyncs when the client joins (within a few game days/weeks)
11:32<Eddi|zuHause3>a workaround in that case would be, to save the server game, and restart the server
11:32<TrueBrain>let's start with the basics: are you running a clean checkout?
11:33<elmex>is there a way to see the value ofthe loaded cargo of something? eg. when i have a train with 10 coal trucks i would love an estimation of the income it will bring me
11:33<Phazorx>Eddi|zuHause3: define saved ?
11:33<Phazorx>Eddi|zuHause3: we did save upgrade and restart
11:33<Phazorx>at least of players got desynced at 1st join after that
11:33<Rubidium>elmex: that depends on the distances and the time taken to get the cargo there
11:34<Eddi|zuHause3>well, if that does not help, the problem is deeper than that...
11:34<elmex>Rubidium: hmm, thats right. but isn't the distance defined by the distance to the station to bring the cargo to? and the time could be 'now'
11:34<Phazorx>and same game goes on for a while
11:34<Phazorx>it was desyncing during previos one as well
11:34<Phazorx>a week ago
11:34<Phazorx>less aggressive than on 66 tho
11:34<TrueBrain>Phazorx: are you running a clean checkout? (e.g.: no patches)
11:35<Phazorx>2 players desync now all time
11:35<Phazorx>TrueBrain: AFAIK - yes
11:35<Eddi|zuHause3>the next step would be to go backwards in revisions, to check, which revision caused the desyncs
11:35<TrueBrain>Phazorx: make sure please
11:35<TrueBrain>(svn diff)
11:36<Phazorx>asking person who updated 1 sek
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11:36<Phazorx><MUcht> svn up -r
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11:37<TrueBrain>either 'svn diff' or 'svn status'
11:37<hylje>hylje@fishtank:~/Projects/ottd/coop$ svn diff
11:38<TrueBrain>does it happen with a new game?
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11:40<hylje>hard to test
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11:40<hylje>need to set up another server, etc
11:40<hylje>me, im behind nat
11:40<TrueBrain>just run: 'save'
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11:40<hylje>peoples playing thar
11:40<hylje>don't probably approve
11:41<TrueBrain>but it is desyncing ;)
11:41<TrueBrain>so not everyone desyncs?
11:41<TrueBrain>Which OSes do desync, which don't?
11:41<hylje>just me and some others
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11:41<hylje>i'm guessing linux desyncs
11:42<TrueBrain>please do not guess
11:42<hylje>at least i didnt give that as a fact
11:42<TrueBrain>I ment to say: please do ask to who ever desyncs which OS they are running
11:42<TrueBrain>(and more, if it is PPC or i?68 :))
11:43<Phazorx>win32 - desyncs
11:43<eJoJ>Windows desyncs as well
11:43<eJoJ>win32 as Phazorx say is the one i use
11:44<Phazorx>testing with osx now
11:44<TrueBrain>also with this version:
11:44<Phazorx>hylje: runs linux
11:44<Phazorx>the link you have - is what i wgeted
11:45<Phazorx><sandbox> hylje has joined the game
11:45<Phazorx><sandbox> hylje has left the game (desync error)
11:45<Phazorx>that's linux compile
11:45<TrueBrain>so, it is a real desync ;)
11:45<hylje>im setting up a precompiled atm
11:47<antichaos>hi, VC is complaining about having to force into to bool in 'bool ful_load = front_v->current_order.flags & OF_FULL_LOAD'
11:48<antichaos>would it be correct to use 'bool full_load = HASBIT(front_v->current_order.flags, OFB_FULL_LOAD);' instead?
11:48<+glx>antichaos: which rev?
11:48<antichaos>9772 - latest svn
11:48<antichaos>759 of vehicle.cpp
11:48<hylje>precompiled seems to work this far
11:48<+glx>ok trying to compile
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11:49<Phazorx>were you spectating ?
11:50<Phazorx>okay hylje was spectating and got droped as well using binary
11:52<elmex>Rubidium: wouldn't it be enough to display GetTransportedGoodsIncome with the cargo of the train and the station it brings the cargo to (of course only accepted cargo)?
11:53<TrueBrain>I hate newgrf, did I ever told you guys that?
11:53<hylje>i recall yes
11:56<Osai>TrueBrain: it might be an endian problem imho
11:56<Osai>because at the beginning I saved the game
11:56<TrueBrain>Osai: only if the server is ppc
11:57<Osai>then I downloaded it to my local machine which is ppc
11:57<TrueBrain>Osai: which I doubt :) The reason I asked for the OSes which desynced :)
11:58<antichaos>while the devs are changing the cargo delivery code, would there be any interest in a rewrite of DeliverGoodsToIndustry which does cargo distribution within station catchement area?
11:58<Osai>activated total town replacement in sp (on my mac 10.4.9+ppc G4) and uploaded it again
11:58<Osai>I think that could cause those problems
11:58<Osai>but I am not sure
11:58<Phazorx>Osai: still have orignal save ?
11:58<TrueBrain>Osai: it in fact shouldn't, but of course it is possible
11:58<Phazorx>can you diff em
11:59<Osai>diff with what?
11:59<Phazorx>before and after change
11:59<Phazorx>aside of tgf setting nothing else should be different
12:01<Eddi|zuHause3>diff savegames? sounds like an awful idea :p
12:01<Phazorx>Eddi|zuHause3: it's a save game with no game changes in it
12:01<Phazorx>only settings
12:01<Phazorx>which i hope will be confirmed
12:02<Eddi|zuHause3>yes, but savegames are compressed
12:02<TrueBrain>and binary
12:02<@Belugas>antichaos, do you have a patch for that rewrite of DeliverGoodsToIndustry? Or do you plan for that? Or do you just ask for that feature?
12:02<Phazorx>didnt know that
12:02<Phazorx>binary or not settings wont matter
12:02<Phazorx>but compressed is an issue
12:02<TrueBrain>you can uncompress :p But it is an impossible job
12:03<Phazorx>can and impossible in same sentence...
12:03<antichaos>I have a patch that I wrote for industry budgets. But I can do a standalone version
12:04<@Belugas>antichaos, please do. I would like to see that :)
12:04<antichaos>But I'm not sure I'm tracking the list of industries near each station in a sensible way
12:04<Osai>we could load the save before I did this change
12:05<TrueBrain>give it a spin
12:05<Osai>its an empty game
12:05<TrueBrain>and please do send me the savegame
12:05<Osai>dcc, mail?
12:05<TrueBrain>(both, if possible)
12:05<Eddi|zuHause3>catchment area is a rectangle, right? so you only have to go through the industry list, and calculate distance (maximum-norm)
12:05<Osai>those old ones?
12:06<TrueBrain>one you got before your changes, one after your changes, and try the one before your changes, and see what happens :)
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12:08<CIA-1>OpenTTD: glx * r9773 /trunk/src/vehicle.cpp: -Fix r9772: MSVC warning
12:08<Phazorx>Cipri: were you desyncing as well on SB?
12:10<Phazorx>.sav proully not in white list
12:11<Osai>stupid ftp :D
12:11<Osai>well I did the upload via sftp
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12:21<TrueBrain>Osai: did you load up the _before?
12:21<TrueBrain>did it help?
12:21<Phazorx>we loaded last game so far
12:21<Phazorx>10 days ago
12:21<Osai>everyone was able to join
12:21<Phazorx>which hylje wasnt able to join
12:21<Phazorx>now he's in w/o GRF change
12:22<TrueBrain>let me know when it desyncs again (if ever)
12:24<Osai>I feel like TTRS is doing the problems
12:24<Osai>actually hylje was able to join the after game (with TTRS)
12:25<Osai>I dunno whether growing cities with more TTRS buildings have an influence on that :(
12:27<hylje>lets just have a ttrs-less game next time
12:28<@Belugas>i doubt ttrs would cause it, since newhouses was introduced a "long" time ago
12:29<@Belugas>or is it the first time you've tried to play with it?
12:29<TrueBrain>Belugas: means it was just hiding all the time ;)
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12:29<Osai>no we played with it before
12:29<Osai>and it worked
12:29<TrueBrain>you guys really have too many grfs :p
12:29<@Belugas>so, it must be something else...
12:30<TrueBrain>Belugas: once there was a bug in newgrf handling that only surfaced with certain buildings and combinations of
12:30<@Belugas>TrueBrain, grfs are fun :)
12:30<TrueBrain>so it still isn't conclusive :)
12:30<@Belugas>could be
12:30<@Belugas>ok... "so, it may be something else" :P
12:31<TrueBrain>it can be almost anything :)
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12:31<@Belugas>anyway, resuming work@work
12:31<TrueBrain>good luck Belugas :)
12:32<Phazorx><sandbox> Phazorx has joined the game
12:32<Phazorx><sandbox> Phazorx has left the game (desync error)
12:32<Rubidium>most likely candidates are r9712 till r9734
12:32<Phazorx>that was instant on paused game
12:32<Cipri>Phazorx: Yeah, me too.
12:32<Phazorx>as soon as we loaded last save
12:32<TrueBrain>what did the server say?
12:32<Phazorx>that's what server said
12:32<TrueBrain>server console
12:33<Rubidium>it desyncs when the server is paused?
12:33<Phazorx>asking someone to look at it... hang on
12:33<Osai>console said nothing else
12:33<Phazorx>Rubidium: usualy it was desyncing when it wasnt
12:33<TrueBrain>desync check doesn't run when game is in pause :)
12:34<TrueBrain>Osai: which game was that? the _before one?
12:34<Phazorx>makes even less sense now
12:34<TrueBrain>Osai: then which?
12:34<Osai>TrueBrain: I loaded the actual game
12:34<TrueBrain>'actual game'?
12:34<Phazorx>last one we savede
12:34<Phazorx>rather than one osai experimented with
12:34<TrueBrain>wasn't the _before the one Osai didn't experiment with?
12:35<Rubidium>Osai: can you turn on autosave at 1 month for the server, then run the server till the first client desyncs and give us the last 3 savegames and the day the client joined?
12:35<Osai>would be possible
12:36<TrueBrain>how many clients were there? And were they there from the start, or did the desync client join later?
12:37<Rubidium>hmm, even better, give us the savegame of the last client that joined and didn't desync :)
12:37<TrueBrain>Rubidium: you do know what you ask them ;)
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12:37<Cipri>This still the lots-of-water game?
12:37<Rubidium>TrueBrain: yes, running Brianetta server thingy
12:37<Cipri>'cause there is one odd thing in that game. Those stepped-stations.
12:38<TrueBrain>but I wonder if the clients that desync are the ones that join, and if a client that doesn't desync leaves, he can rejoin or not?
12:38<Phazorx>so... whats the action plan - jon one player, unpause
12:38<Phazorx>turn on sautosaves
12:38<Phazorx>join one by one
12:39<Phazorx>and present saves when desyncs?
12:39<Cipri>I blame those stations...
12:39<TrueBrain>Phazorx: can any client _join_ without being desynced? (so not a client that is already in-game)
12:39<Phazorx>TrueBrain: some can some can not
12:39<Phazorx>osai has least problems
12:39<Phazorx>hylje: most
12:39<TrueBrain>but is there any client who doesn't hav eproblems when he rejoins?
12:39[~]Cipri can't join either.
12:39<Phazorx>rest (5-6 players) get dropped at random
12:40<Phazorx>TrueBrain: last time it worked - i rejoined 4 times
12:40<TrueBrain>and does a client get dropped which joined from the beginning?
12:40<Phazorx>after that it was okay for a while
12:40<Phazorx>then got desynced again
12:40<Cipri>Hey cool, I managed to join this time.
12:40<Phazorx>i tihnk there is less chances of that happeneing
12:41<TrueBrain>I am not asking about chances, and this is pretty important
12:41<TrueBrain>if a client joins right after the server started, does he ever desync?
12:41<Rubidium>Phazorx: basically as much savegames you can get your hand on made by the server, so we might reproduce it
12:42<TrueBrain>Osai: yes to what? :)
12:42<Rubidium>because reproducing it is the most important step; no way to reproduce means that we have to 'guess' which isn't really usefull in thousands (if not millions) lines of code
12:42<Phazorx>i asked him a Q in other channel :)
12:43<TrueBrain>What Rubidium says :)
12:43<TrueBrain>Phazorx: what I try to picture is the timeline of desyncs
12:43<Phazorx>Rubidium: i know that
12:43<TrueBrain>Phazorx: like there is a BIG difference between all clients desyncing at the same time
12:43<TrueBrain>or a new client joining desyncing
12:43<TrueBrain>or clients that are ingame for a long time, desyncing
12:43<Phazorx>all at same time - almost enver happened
12:43<Phazorx>i seen that once
12:43<Phazorx>on join - often
12:43<Phazorx>and only one who is joining
12:43<TrueBrain>I seen it thouasand of times but we are talking about THIS case
12:44<Cipri>People always get desynched right after they join.
12:44<Phazorx>after a while, no join no leaves same number of plasyers - sometimes
12:44<Cipri>But once you're in, you're fine.
12:44<Phazorx>Cipri: not correct
12:44<Phazorx>i got dropped after an hour last time
12:44<hylje>i get delayed desyncs :p
12:44<Phazorx>and no one joined at same time
12:44<Cipri>Oh. Sorry. I always got/saw instant-desynch's
12:44<Rubidium>hylje: what is delayed?
12:45<Rubidium>how much time?
12:45<hylje>it appears random
12:45<hylje>but some time after join when doing something it suddenly desyncs
12:45<TrueBrain>hylje: in game-days, between which range?
12:45<Rubidium>is it after 2 minutes or after 2 hours?
12:45<Rubidium>probably still the same cause (only better hidden)
12:45<Osai>sorry I can't join this game anymore, my laptop is not able to handle the 500 trains
12:46<TrueBrain>Rubidium: it smells like some data not saved and not used often
12:46<TrueBrain>or wrongly recalculated
12:46<Osai>I keep loosing the connection
12:46<Phazorx>i got client crash one time at desync
12:46<Phazorx>at line i posted when i came here
12:46<TrueBrain>Phazorx: most likely irrelevant
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12:47<Phazorx>TrueBrain: it says sometihng that made sense
12:47<Phazorx>but possible
12:47<Rubidium>peter1138: are there GRFs that have some internal state that they use for callbacks etc? (i.e. is it possible to have that?)
12:47<Zuu>Rubidium: Last time I counted I count to 50 000 lines of code, but that was probably without sub directories of ./src/ :)
12:47<TrueBrain>what is said was that you received a package to handle on a timestamp that was passed the current timestamp. Doesn't really make sense after a desync
12:47<Zuu>hmm, silly backlog :/
12:47<Phazorx>TrueBrain: it was pretty much during rather than after
12:48<TrueBrain>Total Physical Source Lines of Code (SLOC) = 121,923
12:48<Phazorx>but it's just a guess
12:48<TrueBrain>Development Effort Estimate, Person-Years (Person-Months) = 31.00 (372.05)
12:48<Phazorx>i hear you
12:48<TrueBrain> (Basic COCOMO model, Person-Months = 2.4 * (KSLOC**1.05))
12:48<TrueBrain>Schedule Estimate, Years (Months) = 1.98 (23.70)
12:48<TrueBrain> (Basic COCOMO model, Months = 2.5 * (person-months**0.38))
12:48<TrueBrain>Estimated Average Number of Developers (Effort/Schedule) = 15.70
12:48<Rubidium>and SLOC is WITHOUT documentation and/or whitelines!
12:48<TrueBrain>Total Estimated Cost to Develop = $ 4,188,240
12:48<TrueBrain> (average salary = $56,286/year, overhead = 2.40).
12:48<TrueBrain>cpp: 107173 (87.90%)
12:49<Noldo>TrueBrain: what's that?
12:49<TrueBrain>ansic: 14442 (11.85%)
12:49<TrueBrain>sh: 302 (0.25%)
12:49<TrueBrain>asm: 6 (0.00%)
12:49<Rubidium>Noldo: never heard of sloccount?
12:49<TrueBrain>Welcome to OpenTTD
12:50<TrueBrain>OpenTTD contains 107,173 CPP lines
12:50<TrueBrain>of which 14,438 is table-work
12:50<TrueBrain>all trains and their speed, and more of that shit
12:50<TrueBrain>sloc -> source line of code
12:50<TrueBrain>it counts how big a project is
12:50<TrueBrain>like this project is worth 4M $ ;)
12:50<TrueBrain>and should take 31 years to program for 1 person :)
12:50<+glx>we were rich if we were paid :)
12:50<ln->chris sawyer would be rich if he was paid.
12:51<TrueBrain>he got payed for TT
12:51<TrueBrain>and he is rich
12:51<TrueBrain>Osai: you have the url to the grf pack?
12:51<TrueBrain>(lazy :p)
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12:51<hylje>wait, what? we has assembly?
12:51<TrueBrain>6 lines, yes
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12:52<Osai>TrueBrain: this one will work:
12:52<Osai>all grfs you need are inside
12:55<Osai>how to change save interval via console?
12:56<TrueBrain>Osai: the '_before' you sent me, does it also cause those desyncs?
12:57<Osai>but the game is almost empty
12:57<Rubidium>TrueBrain: does r9707 like a suspect?
12:57<TrueBrain>Rubidium: I think that is a big fat: YES
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12:58<Phazorx>TrueBrain: osai is resseting server so it does saves
12:58<TrueBrain>Rubidium: depending on the newgrf, that is network unsafe
12:58<Phazorx>how many desyncs toy want in it?
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12:59<Phazorx>TrueBrain/Rubidium you guys shouild join #openttdcoop and watch the desyncs realtime
13:00<TrueBrain>Rubidium: those things aren't used upon load with those grfs
13:00<Rubidium>TrueBrain: maybe not, but when they store some internal state of the GRF...
13:01<TrueBrain>I totally agree with you
13:02<peter1138>Rubidium: ish
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13:05<peter1138>only grf i've seen using what 9707 adds is an unreleased NARS version
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13:05<TrueBrain>but the potential desync should be underlined :)
13:05<peter1138>and the data is not persistent
13:05<peter1138>(well it is, but only because i didn't bother clearing it, as it's hardly ever used)
13:06<TrueBrain>Phazorx: is it already desyncing?
13:06<peter1138>besides, there have been odd desyncs way before that :)_
13:06<Phazorx>we got 2 so far
13:06<TrueBrain>peter1138: and there will always be :p
13:06<TrueBrain>Phazorx: clients who joined from the start?
13:06<Phazorx>it could be visit -effect
13:06<Phazorx>2 clients who joined rigth after restert got dropped right away
13:06<Phazorx>then rejoined fine
13:06<peter1138>large terraforming does it sometimes
13:07<TrueBrain>now see, that is just odd :)
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13:07<Phazorx>TrueBrain: looks like visit effect in action we have less issues with Rubidium present in channel
13:08<Rubidium>you were just faking desync ;)
13:08<TrueBrain>I want pass :p
13:08<TrueBrain>(to join the game, that is)
13:08<TrueBrain>lol, gui glitches in network dialog :)
13:08<Rubidium>TrueBrain: join #openttdcoop, they're spamming the password in there ;)
13:08<TrueBrain>cpp_gui hopefully solves most of them :p
13:09<TrueBrain>Rubidium: yeah, but I am too lazy
13:09<TrueBrain>I hate invites
13:14<Cipri>Is it possible to make multilevel stations yet?
13:15<Zuu>Cipri: Yes, but not multiple levels on the same square.
13:16<Cipri>Single track trainstations spanning multiple levels?
13:16<hylje>we appear to have one
13:16<hylje>i dunno htf it was made
13:16<Cipri>yeah, exactly.
13:16<Cipri>I think someone has a hacked client that allows that.
13:16<Cipri>Which might explain the desync?
13:16<hylje>but the trains swap level just fine there
13:16<hylje>it works here now
13:17<Cipri>yeah, but /how/ was it made?
13:24<Sacro>so, what are you gonna do now breakpoints have been patented?
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13:34<Ammler>Osai: you linked directly to the zip :(
13:34<Osai>whats the problem with that?
13:34<Ammler>now my Statistics will go wrong
13:34<Osai>hmm oO
13:35<Ammler>most guys donwloaded 7z until now
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13:43<peter1138>i won't touch 7z, heh
13:43<TrueBrain>7z.... NO WAY
13:44<hylje>7z yes way!
13:44<hylje>but i prefer bzip
13:45<peter1138>hylje: in this case the zip is smaller
13:50<Ammler>peter1138: because I made the zip with 7z
13:50<Ammler>else it would have same sice
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14:33<dihedral>anybody here good with apache?
14:33<dihedral>i somehow cannot get apache to server *.patch files as plain text
14:33<Phazorx>mime types?
14:33<dihedral>but it will happily server *.sav files as plain text
14:33<dihedral>have already set those
14:34<dihedral>no change
14:34<dihedral>any other ideas?
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14:37<Phazorx>it must be mime/file type settings
14:37<Phazorx>there is nothing else that affects that
14:37<Phazorx>aisde of file perimissions
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14:40<dihedral>the files are only being served to download
14:40<TrueBrain>Coop guys: <- this is what you guys triggered me to write :p
14:40<dihedral>mime file types have already been set to text/plain
14:43<dihedral>TrueBrain: you got 2 the's there >> because of the the newgrf_engine isn’t called, and therefor the game goes wrong.
14:45<TrueBrain>dihedral: fixed; but I am sure there are many more english mistakes ;)
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14:46<dihedral>could that same thing have caused the desyncs on the 0.5.1 games?
14:46<dihedral>ir is that a nightly / trunk issue
14:47<TrueBrain>I think thisone is strictly nightly
14:47<TrueBrain>but we will know when we find the cause :)
14:47<dihedral>btw check out
14:48<TrueBrain>not my department :)
14:49<dihedral>shall do :-)
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14:58<Ammler>#openttdcoop goes most time with actual nightly and these desyncs aren't there so long, around 1 week.
14:59<Ammler>our admins, where updated the server because of that would know more
15:02<Phazorx>TrueBrain: i read ur article
15:03<Phazorx>i understand your complications and we are willing to help
15:03<Phazorx>however problem of this magnitude should be fixable
15:03<TrueBrain>Phazorx: mostly coop is willing to help :) Sadly enough, more is needed... as currently we are back to the fact that the newgrfs are fucking it up :p
15:04<Phazorx>sounds like more asserts are coming
15:04<Phazorx>which will lead to fixing newgrfs
15:04<Phazorx>however was the problem localized soemwhere
15:04<Phazorx>so we can disable damnt hing ?
15:04<+glx>asserts are only useful when you now what goes wrong
15:05<TrueBrain>Phazorx: remove aircrafts :p
15:05<Phazorx>glx: i tihnk asserts are to tell you what goes wrong
15:05<Phazorx>TrueBrain: sure
15:05<TrueBrain>currently we get different data on the client when we ask the max_speed of an aircraft to the newgrf
15:05<TrueBrain>looking into it
15:05<Ammler>TrueBrain: you mean newindustry?
15:05<TrueBrain>where in my story did I use industry?!?!
15:05<Phazorx>TrueBrain: is that new planes specifically or aircrafts in general ?
15:06<TrueBrain>Phazorx: dunno :p
15:06<TrueBrain>I only see that vehicle_id 5406 has a max_speed of 39 on the server and 15 on the client
15:06<TrueBrain>(which of course results into problems sooner or later)
15:06<TrueBrain>I can also tell you it has engine_type 252 :p
15:08<Eddi|zuHause3>Phazorx: asserts only tell you that something went wrong, it does not really tell you what
15:09<Ammler>TrueBrain: I thought, if there are new problems with newgrf, they have something to do with them
15:09<TrueBrain>Ammler: I just told you it has to do with aircrafts :)
15:09<TrueBrain>to me it looks like a bug in a newgrf, it replies different max_speed for different situations
15:09<TrueBrain>or maybe ttdpatch allows that... I don't know enough about newgrfs :p
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15:10<Eddi|zuHause3>wasn't there a commit about aircraft callbacks recently?
15:12<TrueBrain>to come back to something I said 2 hours ago: I hate newgrfs
15:14<Ammler>Does that include newhouses, -cargos and -industries?
15:14<TrueBrain>I hate newgrfs
15:15<@Belugas>must be a <Tr> thing... so does Tron ^_^
15:16<ln->what doesn't Tron hate? (an honest question)
15:17<Ammler>maybe Im wrong, but the main work from 0.5 to 0.6 is newgrf?
15:17<TrueBrain>you are wrong :)
15:17<Ammler>but not much :)
15:17<TrueBrain>true, but still :p
15:19<Eddi|zuHause3>!openttd commit 9671
15:20<_42_>Commit by peter1138 :: r9671 /trunk/src/ (9 files) (2007-04-18 18:37:40 UTC)
15:20<_42_>-Codechange: Implement NewGRF callback 36, which allows changing of various properties which were previously static. Vehicle max speed and train power/te/running costs are adjustable.
15:20<Eddi|zuHause3>that looking like a candidate?
15:20<Ammler>hmm, the date fits our desyncs
15:23<Eddi|zuHause3>then try before that revision :)
15:23<Rubidium>especially with aircraft
15:25<Eddi|zuHause3>narf... HD full...
15:25<+glx>burn :)
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15:27<Eddi|zuHause3>i'd rather have "full HD" :p
15:27<+glx>expensive hardware ;)
15:28<Eddi|zuHause3>there are only two channels that broadcast in HD anyway...
15:29<TrueBrain>and doesn't work under wine :(
15:31<CIA-1>OpenTTD: miham * r9774 /trunk/src/lang/ (15 files): (log message trimmed)
15:31<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update: WebTranslator2 update to 2007-05-03 22:30:56
15:31<CIA-1>OpenTTD: brazilian_portuguese - 1 fixed by tucalipe (1)
15:31<CIA-1>OpenTTD: bulgarian - 2 fixed by thetitan (2)
15:31<CIA-1>OpenTTD: catalan - 2 fixed by arnaullv (2)
15:31<CIA-1>OpenTTD: czech - 2 fixed by Hadez (2)
15:31<CIA-1>OpenTTD: dutch - 2 fixed by habell (2)
15:35<Rubidium>Sacro: you can already do that
15:36<Sacro>Rubidium: yay!
15:37<Rubidium>at least my laptop has a higher that HD resolution and I can play OTTD full screen
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15:42<@Belugas>end of a tremendous working day
15:42<@Belugas>bye guys
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16:33<RobertGrammig>who much of a quick clickfest are openttd multiplayer games?
16:36<lolman>RobertGrammig, think of a single player game...only the AI are human, and actually know how to lay networks :)
16:36<lolman>Oh and add a few desyncs too :D
16:37<Zuu>Depends on the map and the ruleset.
16:46<Rubidium>lolman: what desyncs?
16:46<lolman>Rubidium, I was joking with that :)
16:46<Rubidium>he doesn't look like somebody playing nightlies
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17:35<Immow>I got this copy past mod that works great
17:35<Immow>I am just wondering if it is possible to copy past something bigger then 63 by 63 tiles?
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17:37<Eddi|zuHause3>you should probably ask Frostregen
17:37<Eddi|zuHause3>elmex: let me guess, you own that pink network in the focus :)
17:38<elmex>not really
17:38<elmex>the red one
17:38<SpComb>yay, python thingies for master-server list fetching and game info fetching
17:39<Immow>thnx Eddi|zuHause3
17:39<SpComb>although without date handling
17:39<Eddi|zuHause3>looks nice, except for those half cloverleaf thingies
17:39<Eddi|zuHause3>they have joins before splits
17:40<elmex>joins before splits?
17:40<Eddi|zuHause3>trains join the main line before the mainline trains split to the side line
17:40<elmex>ah, yes
17:41<Eddi|zuHause3>rather "unfold" one of the "leaves"
17:41<Eddi|zuHause3>like it is done on autobahn triangles
17:42<Eddi|zuHause3>well, a leaf from the main line to the side line is a 270° curve to the right
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17:42<Eddi|zuHause3>if you move the split before the join, do a 90° curve right and a 180° curve left instead
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17:44<elmex>ah, you mean that the leafs, eg. in
17:45<elmex>should be "bigger"
17:45<SpComb>svn:// in case anyone cares
17:46<Eddi|zuHause3>i said nothing about bigger...
17:47<elmex> ?
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17:49<Eddi|zuHause3>yes, something like that, minus 90° turns :)
17:52<elmex>like this: ?
17:53<Eddi|zuHause3>yeah, that looks ok
17:54<Eddi|zuHause3>next step would be the 2x45° turns on the downhill sections
17:54<Eddi|zuHause3>which is easy with build on slopes
17:55<Eddi|zuHause3>just build the diagonal section one tile further, and go downhill parallel to the side line
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17:56<elmex>heh, this is on a server, i guessi cant enable build on slopes
17:56<Eddi|zuHause3>and driving on left scares me :)
17:57<Eddi|zuHause3>well, you can do it without, just go downhill a tile further away from the side line
17:59<elmex>i often mix up the sides where the trains drive :-)
18:00<Patrick>I can't stand to make junctions like that
18:00<Patrick>realistic acceleration makes tight corners untenable
18:01<Patrick>bridges on diagonal rails makes a T-junction really simple to do without any slowdown but the problem is that none of the lines can go without signal gaps - 5 or 6 tiles with no signals
18:01<Patrick>so your throughput is reduced anyway
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18:03<Patrick>I'd do you an SS but I don't have the game installed here
18:03<elmex>SS ?
18:04<elmex>bridges on diagonals would be cool :-)
18:04<Patrick>it's in mainline now
18:04<Patrick>I think
18:04<elmex>lets have a look
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18:06<elmex>unfortunately my bottleneck isn't a cloverleaf junction ;-/
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18:11<elmex>the worst bottleneck is
18:12<elmex>but i guess that easily fixable with a buffer before the station
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18:13<Eddi|zuHause3>the bridges are in trunk, but not in release
18:14<Eddi|zuHause3>you could do with another entrance track :)
18:14<Eddi|zuHause3>and exit
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18:15<Eddi|zuHause3>Patrick: you can sustain longer signal distance by splitting up the line into two, for the bridge part
18:17<RobertGrammig>very low town density on nightly hard is strange... a mistake?
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18:18<elmex>hm, something like this?
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18:19<Eddi|zuHause3>i don't think that's what he meant
18:19<Eddi|zuHause3>more something like having the mainline diagonal
18:20<Eddi|zuHause3>and the split lines as bridges
18:21<Eddi|zuHause3>why do you always have that weird inverted line around your screenshots?
18:21<elmex>i guess thats a bug with imagemagicks import command
18:24<Eddi|zuHause3>hm, my openttd just hang
18:24<Eddi|zuHause3>i was modifying newgrf settings from the main window...
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18:30<elmex> hmm
18:30<elmex>that would be an option
18:31<elmex>but bridges severly slow the train more down than a tunnel IMO
18:32<Eddi|zuHause3>i thought more like this:,%203.%20Feb%201920.png
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18:33<ln->good, still from .ee
18:33<elmex>that would slow down the mainline quite a lot
18:34<Eddi|zuHause3>the problem with tunnels is, they need more space
18:35<elmex>hm, yes
18:35<ln->isn't that title "Gleis- / Bahnhofsbau" a little misleading?
18:35<Eddi|zuHause3>why would it?
18:36<Immow>I looked at the wiki
18:36<Immow>those new textures
18:36<ln->there is no Bahnhof in the original, and only one button is related to Bahnhöfe (Bahnhofs?).
18:36<Immow>of buildings trains etcetra they look amazing
18:37<ln->it could equally well be "Gleis- und Tunnelbau".
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18:37<Immow>so when can this but put into action?
18:37<Eddi|zuHause3>Immow: probably still takes a while :=)
18:38<Eddi|zuHause3>ln-: if at all, it is a further specification, i don't see the misleading part
18:39<Immow>a while? :)
18:39<Immow>1 year or so?
18:39<Eddi|zuHause3>"it is done when it is done"
18:39<Immow>haha :)
18:39<Eddi|zuHause3>that enough for you?
18:39<Immow>yea :)
18:39<Immow>I can model stuff
18:39<ln->"Gleis- / Tunnel- / Brücke- / Bahnhofsbau"
18:39<Immow>I could model something?
18:40<Immow><-- industrial designer
18:40<Eddi|zuHause3>ln-: i am just lucky you are not a german translator :)
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18:44<Eddi|zuHause3>elmex: there is no slowdown if you have fast enough bridges :)
18:44<Eddi|zuHause3>i think there are 600km/h bridges in the newbridges set
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18:45<ln->so am i
18:48<elmex> ?
18:50<elmex>too late today
18:51<Patrick>elmex: yeah
18:51<Patrick>4 is right
18:51<elmex> this is right
18:51<Eddi|zuHause3>but that definitely suffers from long bridges ;)
18:51<Patrick>maybe move the diversion back another tile
18:52<Patrick>make all bridge spans as short as possible
18:52<Patrick>2 for takeoff and landing, 2 to span the diagonal is a signal every 6 tiles, which isn't too bad
18:52<Patrick>and take it from me
18:53<Patrick>7 angled track is the minimum length required to have an 8-car train turn without slowing
18:53<Patrick>and 9 angled track for 10-car
18:53<Eddi|zuHause3>that is basically a topological identical version as mine
18:53<Patrick>so scale up appropriately
18:53<Patrick>mine too
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19:03<Eddi|zuHause3>it's kind of an in-joke :)
19:08<Belugas_Gone>Eddi|zuHause3 is right ;)
19:08<Belugas_Gone>and Sacro is strange ^_^
19:08<Eddi|zuHause3>well, i am in :)
19:10<Belugas_Gone>btw, it's fun when the forums are quiet, i cna concentrate on stuff to do :D
19:15<elmex>i wonder whether this junction would be any good
19:16<Eddi|zuHause3>the inner circle could be a little larger
19:16<Eddi|zuHause3>and again joins before splits
19:16<elmex>and then trains that want to go straight wouldn't block them
19:17<elmex>ah, no
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19:18<Eddi|zuHause3>there are a few unnecessary connections
19:18<Eddi|zuHause3>you have two ways to turn right
19:18<elmex>thats right
19:18<Eddi|zuHause3>and some lines cannot turn left
19:21<Eddi|zuHause3>Patrick: btw. a bridge length of 4 tiles means a signal every 5 tiles, not 6
19:21<elmex>maybe this works
19:22<Eddi|zuHause3>this will be blocking horribly :p
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19:27<elmex>i don't understand the 'joins before splits' thing you mean
19:37<Eddi|zuHause3>it basically means you have two unrelated paths that cross each other
19:38<Eddi|zuHause3>which is an avoidable bottleneck
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19:52<elmex>ok, next try:
19:52<elmex>this one should be a bit better
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19:55<elmex>but thats already doable with tunnels
20:00<elmex>ah, no, not in that space
20:05<elmex>unfortunately it slows down the main lines for trains that go straight
20:05<elmex>the cloverleaf doesn't do that for at least one line when no train wants to change lines
20:05<elmex>but maybe my junction plays better when it gets crowded
20:22<elmex>well, gn8
20:24<elmex>well, with one could still priorize one line by not building those yellow bridges
20:25<elmex>and instead use the blue bridges for the direct path
20:26<elmex>whatevr, gn8
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---Logclosed Fri May 04 00:00:18 2007