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#openttd IRC Logs for 2007-05-05

---Logopened Sat May 05 00:00:50 2007
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02:00<Wolf01>hello
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02:59<peter1138>hi
03:00<Maedhros>hey
03:20<Maedhros>heh, if you stop trains in stations they now say "Stopping, 10 mph"
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04:06<RobertGrammig>considering how little creativity and effort they require, aircraft give way too much money
04:07<RobertGrammig>is there a patch that addresses this?
04:08<TrueBrain>yeah: max_aircraft=0
04:08<Zuu>RobertGrammig: Map size: 128x64
04:10<Zuu>Actually that is quite a fun map-size to play on the net. (with industry competition allowed)
04:11<Zuu>Cause you don't make too much money so exclusive rights are not a problem. And you have to play tactical as geting bad rating at one of three or four towns have a drastical impact.
04:13<RobertGrammig>how do i enable industry competition allowed? is it a grf?
04:14<XeryusTC>no
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04:14<XeryusTC>people just dont whine when you connect one of "their" industries to your network
04:15<Eddi|zuHause2>no, it is a "politeness" rule, that may or may not be in the server's multiplayer rules
04:17<Eddi|zuHause2>http://wiki.openttd.org/index.php/Multiplayer_Rules
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04:19<RobertGrammig>ok sounds fun... never played multiplayer how long does an average session take?
04:20<RobertGrammig>on such a small map with a moderate time span
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04:20<Eddi|zuHause2>until you get bored, or fall asleep :)
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04:29<setrodox>RobertGrammig, on my server usually a week ;
04:29<setrodox>;)
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04:51<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r9789 /trunk/src/vehicle.cpp: -Fix (r9770): vehicles didn't get unloaded when 'full load' was specified and the vehicle was already full when it entered.
04:53<lolman>:o an orudge
04:54<Patrick>come for revision 10,000 :)
04:57<Rubidium>we've already past that ;)
04:57<Rubidium>s/v/r/
04:57<lolman>Rubidium, think he means the 10,000th revision since the move to SVN :)
04:58<Rubidium>@openttd log 1
04:58<Rubidium>!openttd log 1
04:58<_42_>Rubidium: r1 log: Import of revision 975 of old (crashed) SVN
04:58<Rubidium>!calc 9789 + 975
04:58<_42_>Rubidium: 10764;
04:58<lolman>Okay...move to newer SVN :P
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04:59<Patrick>yeah, the real 10,000 passed a while ago
05:00<peter1138>heh
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05:47<CIA-1>OpenTTD: peter1138 * r9790 /trunk/src/newgrf.cpp:
05:47<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Codechange: [NewGRF] Skip action 1 sprites in all stages except activation.
05:47<CIA-1>OpenTTD: This also cleans up some special-case handling of the sprites. Actions 1 and 2
05:47<CIA-1>OpenTTD: are now not considered unsafe, as an Action 3 (which is unsafe) is required for
05:47<CIA-1>OpenTTD: them.
05:47<peter1138>them!
05:50<hylje>them.
05:51<Ammler>will this ever come to trunk? http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?t=19311 (45° rotated rectangle clearing / leveling)
05:52<Maedhros>not with that giant macro in it, no
05:53<Ammler>the idea isn't possible with this macro?
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05:54<Maedhros>no, the idea might come to trunk, but without a lot of cleaning up, that patch won't ;)
05:55<peter1138>that's the old patch
05:56<peter1138>oh, the new one's at the bottom
05:56<peter1138>hmm, still the macro :/
05:57<Ammler>seems the forum did lock the wrong thread...
05:58<peter1138>the guy requested it or something
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07:42<rane_>Sid Meier's Railroads! any good?
07:42<Wolf01>aaaaargh!
07:43<hylje>choo choo
07:43<Wolf01>i've just seen a video of a rail tamper machine at work, nice
07:50<elmex>rail tamper?
07:51<Wolf01>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37SiIuaXBVc
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08:59<RobertGrammig>i like programming and got an average background in other languages... how easy or difficult is it to get into writing own patches for openttd if I never did any c++ programming before?
09:00<peter1138>depends on the scope of the patch :p
09:00<rane_>openttd is c, right?
09:00<peter1138>no
09:01<rane_>oh, read that somewhere
09:01<elmex>it is mostly C code but i've also seen some parts using C++ features
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09:05<Patrick>openttd was entirely C until an indeterminate number of months ago
09:05<Patrick>some (most?) new development is done in C++
09:05<+glx>c++ is used where it's useful
09:06<+glx>but it's mainly C compiled as C++
09:13<eJoJ>pfft asm ftw :P
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09:14<peter1138>eJoJ: go ahead... ttdpatch source is fun :D
09:14<eJoJ>hehe i stick to 4kintro
09:15<eJoJ>1536 byte now uncompressed, first time using direct3d
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10:25<Patrick>yo, any french-speakers here?
10:25<Patrick>I'm just wondering about the relative merits of salut vs. bonjour
10:26<Patrick>they crudely mean the same thing but I'm wondering about nuances
10:26<+glx>salut is more familiar
10:28<Patrick>cool
10:29<Patrick>I'm writing a "hello, world" but it's such an overused phrase
10:29<Patrick>salut, monde
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10:37<Cipri>Patrick: Kinda like Hello vs Goodday.
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10:39<Maedhros>peter1138: are you sure action D special variable 0B is right? shouldn't it be _patches.starting_year not _cur_year?
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10:50<+glx>Maedhros: I think you're right
11:09<Wolf01>great, i've just seen that town road layouts patch was added to the trunk
11:13<Biff>town road layouts?
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11:21<peter1138>Maedhros_: hmm?
11:22<peter1138>oh, probably
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12:23<Phazorx>hmmm is it possible to enter server and company password from command line?
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12:34<Cipri>Phazorx: Nope :( I've requested this already too, but it was too insecure.
12:34<Phazorx>insecure?
12:35<Cipri>yeah, it'd be visible on ps, or in your shellhistory, etc...
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12:45<Phazorx>ps is a problem i guess
12:46<Phazorx>but if one you do not trust has access to your box - you have problems larger than your game password
12:46<Sacro>Phazorx: not so sure, quite a lot of people share servers
12:47<Phazorx>is there a pass param in config ?
12:47<+glx>server password is in cfg yes
12:48<Phazorx>i mean client settings
12:48<Phazorx>i want to have full auto script for SB
12:48<Phazorx>sed'ing config is not that hard if there is a place to put the pass there
12:48<+glx>company passwords are stored in ram onl
12:49<+glx>+y
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13:41<peter1138>bing bong
13:41<mggrant>ping pong
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14:02<Wolf01>lalalaaa
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14:25<ln->http://europa.eu/abc/european_countries/languages/polish/index_en.htm?_pl
14:26<peter1138>eek, forrin
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14:56<Ailure>oh god
14:56<Ailure>I have lots of folders starting with ottd on my deskop
14:56<peter1138>what?
14:56<peter1138>hehe
14:56<Ailure>I figure I need to clean up one of thoose days
14:56<Ailure>stupid nightlies ;P
14:56<peter1138>i appear to have 201 newgrfs...
14:57<peter1138>heh
14:57<peter1138>it's easier with svn
14:57<peter1138>just update to whatever, using one dir
14:58<Ailure>You still need to compile
14:58<peter1138>not hard
14:58<peter1138>just a make
14:59<Ailure>I have compilers and stuff
14:59<Ailure>I do it sometimes xD
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15:06|-|valhalla1w changed nick to valhallasw
15:07[~]HMage has just learned that he can't install MSVS6 after he had installed msvs2005, even after uninstall of latter
15:08|-|Peakki [antti@cs181000195.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: Lähdössä]
15:09<hylje>visual studio breaks your windows
15:09<SpComb>breaks? You mean enhances
15:09<SpComb>hylje: guess what... a guy from ohio has made three commits to the spbot svn repo today
15:10<HMage>msvs6 doesn't, but I've become sure 2002 and newer does.
15:10<hylje>SpComb: unpossible
15:10<SpComb>hylje: very possible. http://spbot2.marttila.de/timeline
15:10<hylje>SpComb: i have an undercover python project too
15:10<SpComb>undercover?
15:11<hylje>its not so public
15:11|-|lolman [~lolman@cpc3-leds2-0-0-cust55.leed.cable.ntl.com] has joined #openttd
15:11<SpComb>SpBotII is quite public
15:11<hylje>yes
15:11<hylje>and to get a svn tracker
15:11<hylje>i used ruby ^_^
15:11|-|SpBot [terom@zapotekII.paivola.fi] has joined #openttd
15:11<SpComb>...continue conversations as normal
15:13<SpComb>http://zapotekii.paivola.fi:8185/oftc-ottd <-- for whoever it was that commented how my logs site is uglier than that other one
15:13<SpComb>I'm working on a script to transferr my irssi logs into the db as well
15:13|-|UndernotBuilder [~chatzilla@168.226.104.78] has joined #openttd
15:14<UndernotBuilder>question: which feature is the most near to be completed?
15:14<SpComb>and ironing out the bugs... when it's, uh, bug-free, I'll deploy it :P
15:15<UndernotBuilder>I mean the branches/newindustries ones
15:15<hylje>heheh
15:15<UndernotBuilder>!openttd commit 10000
15:15<UndernotBuilder>not yet released :(
15:15<elmex>somehow the music doesnt work -/
15:15<elmex>;-/
15:16<UndernotBuilder>!openttd commit 9638
15:16<_42_>Commit by peter1138 :: r9638 /trunk/src/ (6 files) (2007-04-15 16:20:35 UTC)
15:16<_42_>-Feature: Increase cargo types from 12 to 32 and enable newcargo flag in NewGRF loader.
15:16<UndernotBuilder>I write it correctly :S
15:16<elmex>is this the right place to put the music: http://www.ta-sa.org/files/txt/8760c5177c3c55aa58a3055aeeab3d7a.txt ?
15:17<UndernotBuilder>!openttd commit 9900
15:17<Sacro>!openttd commit 1
15:17<_42_>Commit by truelight :: r1 /trunk/ (200 files in 10 dirs) (2004-08-09 17:04:08 UTC)
15:17<UndernotBuilder>neither that
15:17<_42_>Import of revision 975 of old (crashed) SVN
15:17<Maedhros>eep
15:17<UndernotBuilder>!openttd commit 9850
15:17<Maedhros>elmex: please tell me you're not running openttd as root ;)
15:18<elmex>lets not get into the dont-work-as-root discussion
15:18<UndernotBuilder>how I say to the bot for giving me the latest revision commited?
15:18<ln->let's yes
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15:19<ln->elmex: why are you being root?
15:20<elmex>because i'm the only user of my system and want access to everything without su and sudo, and i know what i am doing
15:21<Patrick>yeah, I was naieve enough to say that once
15:21<Patrick>then I had my first reinstall
15:21<SpComb>so instead you open up your entire kernel to any trivial buffer overflow that exists?
15:22<Patrick>SpComb: in all fairness, that's not his main concern
15:22<Rubidium>how usefull, people asking questions and leaving within a minute...
15:22<Patrick>clearly he doesn't care about security anyway
15:22<SpComb>accidental destruction?
15:22<elmex>what is the worst thing that could happen to me: data loss of my homedir. can that happen as any user? answer: "yes"
15:23<Patrick>it opens the door to a lot more frustrating annoyances
15:23<elmex>for accidental deletion i have regular backups
15:23<Patrick>like, oops i accidentally rm'd /usr
15:23<SpComb>backups on what machine?
15:23<Patrick>do you delete over your old backups? you could screw something up without realising it
15:23<elmex>i've never deleted my drive accidentally in the last 10 years
15:23<Patrick>you're stubborn.
15:23<Patrick>it's amusing
15:23<elmex>SpComb: a seperate machine
15:23<valhallasw>only on purpose elmex? ;)
15:23<Patrick>you know when you see people who absolutely swear blind that they're right and better
15:24<Patrick>and you know with complete certainty that they're just wrong
15:24<valhallasw>or only other peoples drives? *grin*
15:24<Patrick>nothing we say can change his mind, so let's just hope it all fucks up sooner rather than later
15:24<elmex>yes
15:24<SpComb>well, we could mention things like nopasswd sudo that would be an improvement
15:24<ln->23:22 < elmex> what is the worst thing that could happen to me: data loss of my homedir. <--- that's not the worst thing.
15:25<elmex>ln-: what is?
15:25<SpComb>is this machine connected to the internet?
15:25<elmex>trough a router, yes
15:25<SpComb>guessing it is as you have openttd on it
15:25<ln->elmex: you run a random program downloaded from the net, and it installs some kind of a hidden rootkit on your computer.
15:25<Rubidium>elmex: corrupting the data in your homedir slowly, so you won't notice it till it is to late (i.e. the backup is already made and the previous backup got lost)
15:25<SpComb>spam bot, amonst other things
15:26<elmex>Rubidium: that can happen as any user, can't it?
15:26<SpComb>rootkits? Not so much
15:26<ln->elmex: you don't know anything about it, but your computer can be used to relay spam, server porn or a intermediate point for attacks to other computers.
15:26<Rubidium>well, www-data, mailserver, sql server etc. do not have write access in my homedir
15:26<elmex>ln-: you dont have to be root to send spam
15:27<ln->elmex: i know. but hiding is a lot easier with root access.
15:27<SpComb>not being root makes it possible to remove any such programs
15:27<SpComb>if you run malicious code as root, you're screwed. Reformat
15:28<elmex>you are as screwed if you run it as user and it kills your precious data files
15:28<elmex>or sends .ssh to somewhere else
15:28<ln->that's what backups are for.
15:29<+glx>how another user can kill your data files?
15:30<elmex>SpComb: if your securiy was compromised you can't be sure that the intruder didn't get root access
15:31[~]SpComb doesn't want to continue this argument anymore
15:31<elmex>it's really interesting how other people think what i should dow ith my computer
15:32<ln->elmex: that's because we already get enough spam.
15:32<elmex>so, what about the music fiels. do they go directly into openttd-0.5.1/gm/ or openttd-0.5.1/data/gm/ ?
15:32<ln->we don't want more.
15:32<+glx>openttd-0.5.1/gm/
15:32<elmex>ln-: you can already send spam as other user. even as www-user
15:33<+glx>data is for grfs and intro
15:33<+glx>and sound
15:33<ln->/root/openttd-0.5.1/gm/, that is.
15:33<elmex>k
15:33<Rubidium>but as 'normal' user you cannot make the local server relay mail coming from the internet
15:34<elmex>?
15:34<Rubidium>non-root users cannot edit the configuration of your mailserver and restart the mailserver
15:35<elmex>i don't retrieve mail via smtp
15:35<elmex>i only send via smtp
15:35<ln->normal users cannot create a hundred additional user accounts on your computer.
15:35<Rubidium>but a root user can make you accept mail and relay
15:35<Patrick>for a start, talking about how you're safe running as root on a public IRC channel will only make it more likely that someone will root you for fun and profit
15:36<Patrick>if nothing because you sound like a smarmy git who deserves it
15:36<Patrick>no offense.
15:38<elmex>Rubidium: and so they can send mail from my mail-address, ok
15:38<elmex>Rubidium: they could also just communicate directly with the relay my lcoal relay is talking to via socket
15:38<elmex>would be easier than getting access to my local smtp server which only sends everything to a relay
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15:39<Rubidium>elmex: that relay server is hopefully password protected and such
15:40<Patrick>this is all buggering around with semantics and what-ifs. Point is, if you run many many programs as root, that's not a better thing than running a handful
15:40<Rubidium>furthermore when they turn off the logs on your computer, you can never prove that you didn't send it. The relay server you are using now has (most likely) logging turned on.
15:40<Patrick>more lines of code in which might exist an exploit
15:40<elmex>yes, i agree with that
15:41<Patrick>zero-day firefox bug. It could happen.
15:41<elmex>hm, the music won't play
15:41<Patrick>the hackers call for the minions to report in. 500,000 windows boxes, they get spam relay $whatever
15:41<Patrick>1,000 linux users, they get ignored
15:41<ln->devs, let me propose a patch: http://users.utu.fi/lanurm/ottd/national_security.diff
15:42<Patrick>20 linux roots, they get rootkitted
15:42<Patrick>hahah
15:42<Rubidium>elmex: do you have a midi player, like timidity installed?
15:42<elmex>hmm
15:42<elmex>i guess not
15:42<Patrick>yeah, I do the same thing in one of my programs, I have a config file which is actually just python that gets executed
15:42<eJoJ>Automatic pause on start also pauses scenario editor
15:43<Patrick>if the file is world writeable the program refuses to start
15:44<elmex>Rubidium: ah, ok, that was it
15:44<elmex>works now
15:44<elmex>thanks
15:45<Rubidium>don't cry when OpenTTD lags on your computer
15:45<elmex>Patrick: ok ok, by time i will reinstall my setup and run every program as seperat user. irc, firefox, and so on
15:45<Rubidium>because timidity uses way too much resources
15:45<elmex>12% CPU
15:45<elmex>it's ok
15:45<Patrick>or, you know, you could have a single non-root user you run your programs as.
15:45<elmex>ah ~20%
15:45<Patrick>call it, say, I dunno, "elmex"
15:46<elmex>;-)
15:46<Patrick>no need to fiddle around
15:46<Patrick>just adduser, copy /root to /home/elmex and recursively chown
15:46<Patrick>et voila
15:47<elmex>and nothing has changed :)
15:47<elmex>except that i have to typ su or sudo to access my system
15:47<ln->no you don't
15:47<+glx>you then need to find 2 passwords :)
15:47<elmex>if someone hacks me while i'm working as user 'elmex' i still can't be sure that there is no rootkit
15:48<hylje>well
15:48<elmex>and he can still install keyloggers
15:48<hylje>the infiltrator needs to trick you once more
15:48<hylje>or use an local exploit
15:48<elmex>right
15:48<Patrick>elmex: you have a windows mentality
15:48<Patrick>it's not "your" system
15:48<Patrick>only a few operations require root to happen
15:48<elmex>not? :)
15:48<Patrick>install or remove software
15:49<elmex>i've bought it, installed it and i'm the only one using it :)
15:49<Patrick>you have this idea stuck in your head that everything, like printing or scanning
15:49<Patrick>or whatever
15:49<Patrick>needs root
15:49<Patrick>and that's BS
15:49<+glx>you can install software as non-root, but they are in your home and only for you
15:49<elmex>Patrick: i don't have that
15:49<Patrick>name some things you need root to do every day and I'll tell you how you're wrong.
15:51<elmex>Patrick: i don't "need" root. but it eases some things. eg when developing programs i'm regularily installing it after each change. - it boils down to: i don't want to type sudo or su for anything i need some more access too.
15:52<ln->why would you need to install it after each change?
15:52<+glx>sudo make install is too much for you?
15:52<elmex>only because i don't 'need' to be root doesn't mean i don't have to
15:52<Rubidium>elmex: make it install in /usr/local
15:52<elmex>glx: yes
15:52<ln->devs, ping?
15:53<Maedhros>there are at least three of us here; you might as well just ask...
15:53<Zuu>Rubidium: Why not simply /home/elmex/usr/ where he have write access?
15:53<ln->comments about this: 23:41 < ln-> devs, let me propose a patch: http://users.utu.fi/lanurm/ottd/national_security.diff
15:54<elmex>why not simply /usr/ when i have root access?
15:55<Zuu>elmex: Why do you need to install in /usr/, can't you just install elsewhere where you have write access as local user?
15:55<+glx>can't your program run without installing elmex ?
15:55<elmex>it can
15:56<elmex>ok, i dont need to be root
15:56<elmex>so what?
15:56<Maedhros>ln-: it's not up to us to enforce non-root usage programmatically, imho
15:56<Rubidium>ln-: wouldn't solve the issue
15:56<elmex>enforcing non-root usage is the most broken 'feature' that is in programs
15:57<elmex>if someone wants to start something as root you can assume he knows what he is doing
15:57<Rubidium>you can't
15:57<+glx>many users don't know what they are doing
15:57<elmex>glx: thats why most linux distributions give you a user account per default
15:57<Rubidium>elmex: what you're saying is that when you login into your Windows system as Administrator you actually know what you're doing.
15:58<elmex>Rubidium: no
15:58<ln->Maedhros: well, users that really know what they are doing could comment out the line, but the ones who just don't know better, would be prevented from doing something stupid.
15:58<+glx>you can't do anything as user in windows ;)
15:58<elmex>Rubidium: i'm saying that when i'm logging into my linux box as root or do 'sudo' or 'su' - then i know waht i am doing
15:58<Rubidium>elmex: you didn't say that
15:58<elmex>Rubidium: i didn't mention windows
15:59<elmex>Rubidium: and we were talking about root and linux
15:59<Rubidium>so, what's conceptually different between linux & windows and root & administrator?
16:00<eJoJ>elmex : thought about open a terminal as root? that way you don't have to su/sudo everything do you?
16:01<elmex>i guess that windows is different from linux. but either way: logging in as admin/root IMO means that one knows what he is doing. at least programs should assume that, ortherwise the users that know what they are doing are obstructed and prevented from doing things
16:01<ln->elmex: i think you are a living and walking counter-example of your own claim.
16:01<elmex>eJoJ: oh, i'm opening my temrinals as root, yes
16:02<elmex>ln-: i don't think so
16:02<eJoJ>then what is the problem with running the rest as normal user?
16:02<elmex>none i guess
16:05<elmex>i'm have been taking the risks of working as root consciously - but thanks for advising me in fundamental security issues
16:11<eJoJ>What is the current max limit on resolution for ottd?
16:11<Rubidium>2048x1200 or something like that
16:12|-|thgergo [~th_gergo@dsl5402B3F7.pool.t-online.hu] has quit []
16:12<eJoJ>posible to change localy it localy without much problem and still play on servers with different setting?
16:15<Rubidium>iirc changing that could cause desyncs
16:17<eJoJ>Guess I have to try to find out
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16:46<peter1138>pompiedom
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16:48[~]Sacro shouts "LETS GO" and opens the hatch
16:50<Rubidium>Red Sox?
16:51<Sacro>PBIMOTTD?
16:51<Rubidium>TooLongAcronymException ;)
16:52<Sacro>OooohCamelCase
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17:14<TheJosh>Hey all
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18:05<Ailure>heh
18:05<Ailure>it would be nice if the scenario editor could be used over multiplayer
18:08<rane_>"code it ;)" would be the typical answer here
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18:16<@Belugas>[17:45] <peter1138> pompiedom <--- not you too :(
18:16<@Belugas>booh
18:16<@Belugas>[19:04] <Ailure> it would be nice if the scenario editor could be used over multiplayer
18:16<@Belugas>[
18:16<@Belugas>let's construct a scenario online ??
18:16<@Belugas>otherwise, i don't see benefit of it
18:19<Ailure>yeah
18:19<Ailure>Sometimes I wonder how nice it would be if like
18:19<Ailure>four people could work on a scenario at the same time :p
18:19<Ailure>Of course it kinda requires that they know each other quite well or xD
18:20<Ailure>Or at least have trust
18:22<CIA-1>OpenTTD: glx * r9791 /trunk/src/ (openttd.h variables.h): -Fix (r9779, FS#766): add TownLayoutByte to correctly save town layout value
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18:43<Wolf01>'night
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22:07<Aloysha>booyah
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22:21<[PING]Marsman21> not sure if anyone is on ... I run an OpenTTD server ... I am fiddling with on_server_connect.scr so I can display an MOTD
22:21<[PING]Marsman21>however, not having any luck getting the messages to show when people log into the server
22:22<[PING]Marsman21> suggestions??
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22:37<Frostregen>back when running a server i had a modified the source to do this
22:41<[PING]Marsman21>he he ... the beauty of open source :)
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23:58<Phazorx>not sure if it is a bug or feature - a sign and station name can not be the same :/
---Logclosed Sun May 06 00:00:25 2007