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#openttd IRC Logs for 2007-05-15

---Logopened Tue May 15 00:00:31 2007
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01:20<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r9840 /trunk/src/economy.cpp: -Fix (r9838): MSVC is complaining about signedness again (Belugas).
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03:42<dihedral>hi
03:43<@peter1138>hi
03:47<dihedral>sitting at school...
03:47<dihedral>such a bore
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04:03<TinoM>mission flicken erledigt, ab zum ifgi
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05:07<Brianetta>I've ditched irssi
05:08<Brianetta>xchat works exactly as I want, and I couldn't get irssi to emulate it. I think nine months is ample time to grow to hate something.
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05:09<peterbrett>xchat 4tw
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05:13<Brianetta>I wish I knew why my dedicated server keeps on exiting
05:13<@peter1138>not crashing?
05:14<Brianetta>nope
05:14<@peter1138>o_O
05:14<Brianetta>silently returning
05:14<Brianetta>I'm recompiling with debug
05:14<@peter1138>end of game?
05:14<@peter1138>*nod*
05:14<Brianetta>I specify -d on the command line, but still nothing
05:14<Brianetta>No end of game specified
05:14<Brianetta>It normally rolls on to 2398
05:14<Brianetta>if I forget about it
05:15<@peter1138>hmm
05:15<Brianetta>Hopefully I'll see an assert or something next time
05:15<Brianetta>or at least some output
05:16<Brianetta>How do you increase verbosity?
05:16<Brianetta>More -d?
05:16<@Rubidium>-d <num>
05:16<@Rubidium>or -d <specific_target>=<num>
05:16<@Rubidium>like -d net=9
05:16<@Rubidium>or -d grf=3,net=9
05:16<@Rubidium>or -d 3
05:17<Brianetta>I don't have any clue where to look, so I'll just bang them all up
05:17<@Rubidium>that would be -d 9 which isn't nice ;)
05:17<Brianetta>What's likely to be a useful level?
05:17<@Rubidium>quite 'floody' if I may say so
05:17<Brianetta>flooding matters not - I have IRC rcon
05:18<@Rubidium>I've got not a real idea
05:18<Brianetta>I'll set it to 6
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05:21<Brianetta>OK, that's running in screen, teeing to a log fil
05:22<Brianetta>/msg sarah_pilot playercount
05:22<Brianetta>that works
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06:28<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r9841 /trunk/src/ (7 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: add a little more type strictness to the vehicle types.
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07:23<@Belugas>hello
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07:38<@Bjarni>hi Belugas
07:38<@Belugas>hey Bjarni. SO, how did your svn fight ended yesterday?
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08:02<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r9842 /trunk/src/ (functions.h stdafx.h): -Codechange: now NOT_REACHED is also triggered when debugging is disabled.
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08:14<@Bjarni><Belugas> hey Bjarni. SO, how did your svn fight ended yesterday? <-- I won and we met the deadline.... the sideeffect is that I went to bed around 7:30.... I'm not feeling too well right now :(
08:15<+glx>go sleep then :)
08:15<@Bjarni>I can't :(
08:15<@Bjarni>I have to leave in a moment
08:15<@Bjarni>I have an appointment
08:18<@Belugas>you will enjoy your bed much more tonight :)
08:18<@Belugas>hold on, and grab some coffee (or whatever suits you) until then
08:19<@Belugas>yurk...
08:19<@Belugas>recompile
08:19<TrueBrain>Belugas did a 'svn update'
08:19<TrueBrain>;)
08:20<@Belugas>hehe
08:20<@Bjarni>bbl
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08:29<hylje>http://bash.org/?761884
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08:35<Eddi|zuHause3>www.gidf.de
08:35<Eddi|zuHause3>:)
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08:38<TrueBrain>kick
08:38<TrueBrain>:)
08:38<boekabart>ouch
08:38<TrueBrain>not you boekabart
08:38<TrueBrain>Welcome btw :)
08:38<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r9843 /trunk/src/newgrf.cpp: -Fix (r9838): tell the newgrfs that we now support proper FIFO loading.
08:39<boekabart>welcome back you mean... my internet has gone down 4 times already today
08:40<hylje>:<
08:40<boekabart>very :<
08:42<Eddi|zuHause3>hylje: i think the german version sounds a little more polite :)
08:42<hylje>the fact of it being german makes it about equal in politeness
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09:09<CIA-1>OpenTTD: truelight * r9844 /trunk/ (22 files in 3 dirs):
09:09<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Codechange: replace zoomlevel with an enum
09:09<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Codechange: use predefined enums for viewport zoomlevels
09:09<peterbrett>TrueBrain: is that your commit?
09:09<boekabart>TrueLight: One of the good things of the 32bbp patch :) ?>
09:10<TrueBrain>peterbrett: yes
09:10<TrueBrain>boekabart: just one of those things that should have been in the trunk long ago :p
09:10<boekabart>exactly
09:10<peterbrett>TrueBrain: I'm puzzled as to why you would want to use predefined enums for zoomlevels.
09:11<TrueBrain>peterbrett: as now it is a mess, with single numbers nobody knows the meaning of
09:11<TrueBrain>and if you start adding new zoom-levels
09:11<peterbrett>TrueBrain: Theoretically, zoom is a geometric value, i.e. real.
09:11<TrueBrain>it gets even more weird
09:11<TrueBrain>peterbrett: currently, yes. Soon: no
09:12<peterbrett>So it should theoretically be represented by a real number, not by a selection of predefined ones.
09:12<peterbrett>Or am I just going nuts? Or am I looking at it too much like an engineer and not enough like a hacker?
09:12<TrueBrain>this exactly cleans up the 'hackish' part
09:13<TrueBrain>and you assume every zoom level is 2 times the last one
09:13<boekabart>peterbrett: It will be in OpenTTD 3.0 '3D'
09:13<TrueBrain>(factor 2)
09:13<TrueBrain>where there is no real reason for doing so
09:13<TrueBrain>and as we don't use OpenGL
09:13<TrueBrain>don't expect zoom level of 1.2223232`
09:13<TrueBrain>;)
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09:15<peterbrett>So what's wrong with documenting that "the zoom level is an integer z. for a given z, a sprite will be scaled by 2^(-z)
09:15<boekabart>you assume a fixed base size
09:16<peterbrett>boekabart: No, I don't.
09:16<boekabart>yes you do
09:16<boekabart>'scaled by'
09:16<boekabart>which might be an untrue assertion in the future
09:16<TrueBrain>peterbrett: you will see in the near future that this is very useful :)
09:16<peterbrett>True. However, I assume that each sprite has a "natural size" associated with it.
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09:17<TrueBrain>but, to give a simple example: we now have zoom normal, 2x out, 4x out
09:17<TrueBrain>say someone makes 3x out
09:17<boekabart>"for any zoomlevel,all sprites should be scaled to a specified width/height" might be better in the future. allows any zoom factor, and any input size for sprites
09:17<TrueBrain>this means that you need to replace all '2' to '3' and add a '2'
09:17<peterbrett>Then the scaling is 2^(<sprite dependent factor> - z)
09:17<TrueBrain>or make '3' be in betwen of value '1' and '2'
09:17<TrueBrain>so you get very weird things ;)
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09:18<peterbrett>TrueBrain: Clearly the scale factor should be base e
09:18<peterbrett>But it will always be exponential.
09:18<TrueBrain>peterbrett: and that is not really needed :)
09:18<peterbrett>In order to percieve a continuous rate of zooming out (optical illusion)
09:18<peterbrett>This is why the default is 1, 2, 4, IIRC
09:18<TrueBrain>true
09:19<TrueBrain>but okay, this really is just code cleanup
09:19<peterbrett>So actually making it work "properly" is something planned?
09:19<TrueBrain>define: properly?
09:20<peterbrett>So I can go into the console and type "zoom <random real number>" and it will try to do it
09:20<TrueBrain>no, that won't be possible anytime soon; that is: for X zoom levels it will
09:20<TrueBrain>or rather: N zoom levels
09:20<TrueBrain>but not any
09:20<TrueBrain>as we have like 10 switches() for zoomlevel
09:21<peterbrett>TrueBrain: But I've just demonstrated a system by which you can do zooming consistently and accurately using a single integer value.
09:21<TrueBrain>good for you, but OpenTTD isn't ready for it :)
09:21<peterbrett>TrueBrain: And there's no reason you can't gate it in a certain range, 0-2 say
09:21<TrueBrain>there is more needed then just a theory or an idea :)
09:21<peterbrett>TrueBrain: Which will give you your zoom levels.
09:21<boekabart>TrueBrain: these switches are going to be replaced by lookup tables, i presume?
09:21<TrueBrain>if you clamp it between 0 and 2, you can make the console command right now ;)
09:21<peterbrett>TrueBrain: Quite.
09:21<TrueBrain>boekabart: not for now
09:22<peterbrett>TrueBrain: That sounds like a challenge ;)
09:23<boekabart>from what I remember, most of them can be. The ones deciding font size/ hiding things actually should be I think.
09:23<TrueBrain>peterbrett: I dunno if it is something we want... do you really want to zoom out 32 times? :)
09:23<boekabart>minimap!
09:24<peterbrett>TrueBrain: No, but surely it would be useful to be able to zoom out to view the whole map. Of course, the frame rate would be horrendously slow, but hey
09:24<boekabart>I actually think that one more level 'in' and one more 'out' are enough. But I'm not a 32bpp artist, of course
09:24<peterbrett>That's not a good reason not to do it ;)
09:24<TrueBrain>peterbrett: and that is a problem that will be hard to fix, so I don't think it is useful at this stage :)
09:24<TrueBrain>boekabart: I doubt very much if we need a zoom-in level
09:24<TrueBrain>but okay, code-wise it is now possible
09:25<boekabart>TrueBrain: On a 1280x1024 17" screen, sometimes details are getting small, I use CTRL-D once in a while now...
09:25<TrueBrain>boekabart: then it might be worth considering
09:25[~]boekabart needs new glasses, maybe.
09:28<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r9845 /trunk/src/zoom.hpp: -Fix (r9844): svn:eol-style/svn:keywords were missing...
09:29[~]TrueBrain hugs Rubidium
09:30<Brianetta>boekabart: You asked about my live webcam
09:30<Brianetta>boekabart: It's done with the screenshot command
09:31<Brianetta>and scrollto
09:31<peterbrett>Brianetta: Live webcam? Where? ;)
09:31<Brianetta>ppcis.org/standards
09:31<boekabart>peterbrett: doesn't show Brianetta, just the game ;)
09:31<Brianetta>ppcis.org/standard
09:31<boekabart>Brianetta: yes, someone told me... I didn't know server could make a screenshot
09:31<boekabart>I was suggesting to add < > ^ buttons around it
09:31<Brianetta>It's deprecated
09:32<boekabart>to control the scrollto
09:32<Brianetta>I would do the buttons, but the server load...
09:32<Brianetta>omg, the load
09:32<boekabart>it HURST!
09:32<Brianetta>people would click the buttons
09:32<boekabart>eh... hurts too
09:32<boekabart>maybe accept only from one person, until that person times out, then accept the next
09:32<boekabart>(by IP or so)
09:33<Brianetta>Once the devs find a way to make a dedicated server that doesn't render the game into an off-screen framebuffer, they'll lose the screenshot function.
09:33<boekabart>Devs: Why is de dedicated server rendering?
09:33<Brianetta>Not much point includin garrows if they only move about ten tiles
09:33<Brianetta>boekabart: dedicated server is a hacky kluge
09:33<boekabart>no, as long as 1 user keeps pressing, he doesn't time out.
09:34<Brianetta>Basically, it's a regular game but with the SDL bits chopped out
09:34<Brianetta>That one user
09:34<Brianetta>will press lots and lots
09:34<Brianetta>and kill the CPU
09:34<boekabart>how much does making a shot from the already-existing buffer cost!?
09:34<Brianetta>It's that, and also the mogrification that puts the caption on
09:34<Brianetta>and the script that copies it to the web page
09:34<boekabart>:)
09:34<boekabart>stop, stop.
09:35<@peter1138>mjpeg...
09:35<@peter1138>you know you want to...
09:35<Eddi|zuHause3>rofl :p
09:35<boekabart>yeah!! instead of sdl or gdi, use mjpeg!
09:35<boekabart>or mpeg::: the motion vectors are already known....
09:35<@peter1138>you reckon? ;p
09:36<Eddi|zuHause3>make giant screenshots in real time, and then cut out the view of each person :)
09:36<boekabart>anyway, so why is it actually rendering? an IF in DrawViewport isn't possible?
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09:37<Eddi|zuHause3>boekabart: it has to be drawing into a buffer, because the drawing functions are not clearly separated from the game logic
09:37<boekabart>hm... I didn't notice that so much actually. Did anyone ever spend serious time on that?
09:42<RamboRonny>hi nerds, a good friend of mine once said a nerd is a good thing
09:43<boekabart>define nerd
09:43<TrueBrain>RamboRonny: the fact that you need to add it directly after you saying so, indicates you know it can be read offensive
09:43<TrueBrain>so it is doubtful you agree with your good friend
09:43<TrueBrain>:)
09:43<boekabart>and a nerd isn't a thing, it's a person.
09:43<boekabart>usually.
09:45<@peter1138>it's an attribue ;p
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09:54<gregor>What chmod needs the sample.cat ?
09:54<Noldo>r
09:55<boekabart>r... like everything except openttd.cfg and save/
09:56<@blathijs>gregor: It needs to be readable by the user running openttd
09:57<@blathijs>so if you want to run openttd for one user, which also owns sample.cat, 400 or 600 is fine
09:57<@blathijs>if you want it to be run by all users, 644 is needed
09:57<Brianetta>nerd--
09:57<Brianetta>geek++
09:58<valhallasw>Brianetta!
09:58<Brianetta>er
09:58<Brianetta>valhallasw!
09:58<valhallasw>I changed the symlinks to a apache rewrite with [R=permanent]. that would be the best solution to keep, I suppose?
09:59<Brianetta>I have no idea
09:59<Brianetta>apache rewrite is a write-only language to me
09:59<Brianetta>If it works, go with it
09:59<valhallasw>k
09:59<peterbrett>Brianetta: perl is a write-only language to me ;)
09:59<valhallasw>interesting, 'write-only' languages :p
09:59<hylje>that's the common consensus anyway
10:00<Noldo>write-only?
10:00<Brianetta>well, by write only, I mean that the only way to modify it is to erase it, and try again
10:00<valhallasw>regexp's are write-only in general
10:00<peterbrett>valhallasw: indeed
10:00<Brianetta>no, they can be modified
10:00<valhallasw>apache rewrites just are regexps ;)
10:01<Brianetta>I'm sure they're related, but since I can't read it, I don't know
10:01<hylje>apache rewrites are regexps
10:01<Brianetta>I have written rewrite rules
10:01<Brianetta>but I don't understand how they work, and to be honest I'm not even sure of the syntax.
10:01<Brianetta>You said "[R=permanent]" and I just didn't know what that meant
10:01<Brianetta>or even where that would go
10:01<Brianetta>or even if that was what you meant by a rewrite rule
10:02<valhallasw>permanent redirect
10:02<Brianetta>It does in the line somewhere?
10:02<Brianetta>replaces it?
10:02<boekabart>err, offtopic?
10:03<Noldo>just a little bit
10:03<@peter1138>who cares?
10:03<gregor>yeah! It runs :)
10:03<boekabart>me, i want only ontopic chatter to keep me off my work
10:07<valhallasw>boekabart: /part O+ ;P
10:07<boekabart>valhallasw: ???
10:10<Brianetta>/join 0
10:11<boekabart>is that the same as /leave?
10:12<valhallasw>well
10:12<valhallasw>more like /leave *
10:12<valhallasw>part == leave
10:13<Brianetta>Originally, IRC only had numbered channels
10:13<Brianetta>/join 34
10:13<Brianetta>etc
10:14|-|GoneWacko [~gonewacko@i157063.upc-i.chello.nl] has joined #openttd
10:14<valhallasw>...
10:15<boekabart>sounds like IRC used to be only for nerds
10:15<boekabart>ROFL
10:15<hylje>it was
10:16<boekabart>WAS ?
10:16<hylje>there were no way to chat on the internet back then
10:16<hylje>more or less just one-to-one
10:16<@blathijs>boekabart: I still have a fairly strong channel-to-number connection in my head, for irssi shows activity by channel number :-)
10:16<hylje>yes
10:16<Noldo>blathijs: window number
10:17<boekabart>blathijs: see, still. just for nerds. and yes I know I'm here.
10:17<@blathijs>Noldo: yes that :-)
10:17<hylje>channel names take my precious screen estate
10:17<Brianetta>I just ditched irssi
10:17<boekabart>so that's why the # prefix...
10:18<Brianetta>boekabart: # for named network-wide channels
10:18<Brianetta>@ for local named channels
10:18<hylje>& actually
10:18<hylje>for local
10:18<Brianetta>&, yes
10:19<boekabart>local == the random server you log on to?
10:19<hylje>yes
10:19<Brianetta>Some servers don't allow local channels to be created, but that's just because they have miserable admins
10:19<boekabart>what are those useful for
10:19<Noldo>boekabart: not all people connect to random servers
10:19<Brianetta>boekabart: Before round-robin DNS, they were far from random
10:20<Brianetta>You connected to your local efnet server, which was in your company or university
10:20<Noldo>IRCnet has + and ! channels too
10:20<Brianetta>and channels there could be properly local
10:20<boekabart>is it very obvious that I never was in the University Unix club?
10:20<Brianetta>No
10:21<Brianetta>Just obvious that you weren't on the net way back then
10:21<boekabart>Brianetta: LOL
10:21<Brianetta>I remember when the first Windows users came onto IRC
10:21<boekabart>actually I was, both... I remember having a @stack.tue.nl email address....
10:21<Brianetta>Mardam-Bey was almost assassinated, I recall
10:21<Noldo>our computer club has a local channel on unis irc server
10:22<Brianetta>The first version of mirc was cool
10:22<Brianetta>All these whiney Windows users came online, yacking on about games and stuff, with no hacker values or appreciation of net culture
10:22<Brianetta>but that was OK
10:22<Brianetta>because if you just said a Ctrl-A into the channel, their clients crashed
10:22<boekabart>up to now, I haven't found a really decent IRC client for win
10:22<boekabart>using gaim/pidgin nowadays
10:23<Brianetta>There isn't a really decent *anything* for win
10:23<Brianetta>or lose, as I think of it
10:23<hylje>faildows
10:23<boekabart>how about openttd
10:23<Brianetta>Microsoft Losedows
10:23<hylje>:o
10:23<boekabart>no faildows sounds better
10:23<Brianetta>Win is to lose as succeed is to fail
10:24<boekabart>ya ya...
10:24<Brianetta>It isn't Succeeddows
10:24<boekabart>definately not
10:24<valhallasw>Brianetta: InDesign works
10:24<boekabart>wait. msvc is decent for win, actually
10:24<peterbrett>Windows Vista is a particularly good joke.
10:24<valhallasw>*insert random game* works
10:25<Brianetta>Yeah, sure. No recent game works on my XP box.
10:25<valhallasw>Interesting.
10:25<boekabart>I have a p4 3.2 with a geforce 6600... can't even fly flightsim 10 decently
10:25<valhallasw>Maybe you should install DirectX :p
10:25<boekabart>no, i'll just play around with ottd
10:26<Brianetta>valhallasw: Actually, I think it has more to do with my 1800 CPU
10:26<Brianetta>Whereas on my PSP, all PSP games work.
10:26<Brianetta>The PC isn't a gaming platform any longer.
10:26<peterbrett>Microsoft are getting really desperate, judging by their patent trolling against FLOSS
10:26<Brianetta>Fewer and fewer games are available.
10:27<Brianetta>Wander into Game, and you get two stacks. Latest releases, and budget.
10:27<Brianetta>The shop must have 100 stacks.
10:28<valhallasw>Brianetta: I agree with you console gaming is taking a leap
10:28[~]boekabart is dreaming about a xbox360 port of openttd.. which you play with keyboard and mouse
10:29<Brianetta>So when there are no more PC games
10:29<boekabart>... on a 40" LCD
10:29<Brianetta>there will be no more use for Windows
10:29<Brianetta>and it will die
10:29<Brianetta>and Mac will become the new evil
10:29<Brianetta>and Linux will fight Mac instead
10:29<boekabart>because without evil there can be no good?
10:29<hylje>microsoft is migitating that with xbox30 and easily portable games between the platforms
10:30<boekabart>migiwho?
10:30<Brianetta>Yeah.. and their QA doesn't compare with Nintendo's
10:30<peterbrett>hylje: Did you mean mitigating?
10:30<hylje>red ring of death
10:31<peterbrett>Nintendo is absolutely kicking ass in the consoles arena
10:31<hylje>peterbrett: wow, never seen that one
10:31<hylje>always read migitating
10:32<boekabart>brains are weird....
10:36<hylje>a
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11:09<TrueBrain>hmm
11:09<TrueBrain> -Codechange: introduced ZOOM_LVL_MIN and ZOOM_LVL_MAX for the obvious reason
11:09<TrueBrain>s
11:09<TrueBrain> -Codechange: introduced ZOOM_LVL_DETAIL to show/remove details
11:09<TrueBrain> -Codechange: changed << and >> operator with ZoomLevel to a simple wrapper (
11:09<TrueBrain>that in theory also allows zoom-in besides the current zoom-out)
11:09<TrueBrain> -Fix r9845: missed some int -> ZoomLevel
11:09<TrueBrain>That it should have been...
11:10<TrueBrain>@openttd commit
11:10<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: Commit by truelight :: r9846 /trunk/src (13 files) (2007-05-15 16:08:46 UTC)
11:10<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: -Codechange: introduced ZOOM_LVL_MIN and ZOOM_LVL_MAX for the obvious reasons
11:10<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: -Codechange: introduced ZOOM_LVL_DETAIL to show/remove details
11:10<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: -Codechange: changed << and >> operator with ZoomLevel to a simple wrapper (that in theory also allows zoom-in besides the current zoom-out)
11:10<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: -Fix r9845: missed some int -> ZoomLevel
11:14<TrueBrain>peterbrett: and now we can add new zoom levels in a very simple way
11:14<TrueBrain>as the compiler immediatly starts bithcing if you forget a case somewhere :p
11:15<TrueBrain>(or you assert directly :p)
11:16<CIA-1>OpenTTD: truelight * r9846 /trunk/src/ (13 files):
11:16<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Codechange: introduced ZOOM_LVL_MIN and ZOOM_LVL_MAX for the obvious reasons
11:16<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Fix r9845: missed some int -> ZoomLevel
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11:21<gregor>MD5 of TRGT.GRF is ****INCORRECT**** - File Corrupt.
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11:23<@Rubidium>gregor: and?
11:23|-|lolman [lolman@cpc3-leds2-0-0-cust55.leed.cable.ntl.com] has joined #openttd
11:25<+glx>it's your file
11:25<+glx>you may have applied a grd exe on it
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11:51<Zr40>hey TrueBrain
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12:11<MeusH>hello
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12:17<Wolf01>hello
12:17|-|gregor [~gregor@xdsl-87-78-35-237.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat]
12:19<MeusH>!seen sleepie
12:19<_42_>MeusH, Sleepie (~Sleepie@p54b37224.dip.t-dialin.net) was last seen quitting #openttd 17 hours 6 minutes ago (15.05. 00:12) stating "Quit: 3...2...1...quit" after spending 1 hour 54 minutes there.
12:19|-|maddy [Marc-Andre@AMontpellier-256-1-110-242.w90-28.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #openttd
12:19<TrueBrain>@seen sleepie
12:19<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: sleepie was last seen in #openttd 20 hours, 41 minutes, and 57 seconds ago: <Sleepie> hmm, I think it is a very special kind of transport so I'm not sure if their is really a need for it in OTTD
12:19<TrueBrain>Difference between being here, and really talking :p
12:20|-|CIA-1 [~CIA@208.69.182.149] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
12:20<TrueBrain>fast, commit many tihngs!
12:20<TrueBrain>they won't notice!
12:20<MeusH>thanks :)
12:20<MeusH>hehe :)
12:20<maddy>i think we found a bug
12:20<Wolf01>zen moment?
12:21<hylje>ze moment
12:21<TrueBrain>maddy: I think we found many bugs: http://bugs.openttd.org/
12:21<maddy>lol
12:22<@Belugas>stange... <I> think <WE> found a bug...
12:22<maddy>too bad that brianetta isn't here, he could look up in the logs what exactly happend
12:22<@peter1138>you shut down his server again?
12:22<@Belugas><I> think, but <WE> do not know that <I> think...
12:22<maddy>Belugas, i think that we (my associate and me) found it ;)
12:23<TrueBrain>Belugas: exactly :)
12:23<hylje>html?
12:23<@Belugas>so, we think we've found a bug!
12:23<@Belugas>muwhahaha!
12:23<maddy>peter1138, just because we tried to demolish a bridge
12:23<TrueBrain>Belugas: only he thinks it
12:23<TrueBrain>the other guy has no clue :p
12:23<maddy>lol
12:23<@Belugas>rofl
12:23|-|elmex [~elmex@e180064079.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #openttd
12:24<@Belugas>anyway, maddy, please explain what you've found
12:25[~]Belugas likes "you", as it could be singular or plural without distinction
12:25[~]peter1138 likes Belugas cos he's finished newindustries
12:25<Wolf01>what? when?
12:25<@Belugas>i have??
12:26|-|boekabart [~bdb@g54037.upc-g.chello.nl] has joined #openttd
12:26[~]Belugas should detect british humour by now :S
12:26<TrueBrain>yes, you should
12:26<hylje>british humour is most silly
12:27<@peter1138>that is the point of humour...
12:27<geoffk>hylje, wait til i start mies so bad
12:27<boekabart>Can't get my wife to not-loathe it.
12:27<geoffk>mines*
12:27<maddy>Belugas, last night it was a wooden bridge with a train on it and my asso tried to demolish it *crash*, and just 5 minutes ago was it a steel bridge with a train on it *craseaswell*
12:27<@Belugas>no, not silly. Just different
12:27<hylje>non-silly humour?
12:27<hylje>now that's silly!
12:27<@Belugas>maddy : which version of program?
12:28<maddy>0.5.1
12:28<boekabart>uh oh!
12:28<@Belugas>i think it has already been fixed in nightlies, iirc
12:28<maddy>i see
12:29<maddy>then we try to not demolish a bridge with a trzin on it XD
12:29<boekabart>maddy: that's silly anyway
12:29<@Belugas>yup, a trzin as well as a train ;)
12:29<maddy>boekabart, don't tell me...
12:30[~]boekabart just had to use that word one more time
12:30<hylje>zug zug
12:30[~]Belugas thinks he might as well shuts up, since his rate of type is quite high
12:31<@Belugas>furthermore, i have stuff to finish...
12:31<hylje>stuff..
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12:31<Wolf01>i think OFTC kick me when i say idiocies :\
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12:32<maddy>Belugas, NewIndustries is finished?
12:32<TrueBrain>see what you did peter1138
12:32<@Belugas>yes
12:32<@Belugas>it is finished
12:32<maddy>Belugas, in nightlies?
12:32<@Belugas>nightlies?
12:32<@Belugas>what's that?
12:33|-|yeti_ [~yeti@p5493D617.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd
12:33<yeti_>hi :)
12:33<Wolf01>Belugas, NewIndustries is finish..ehm can it allow industries on slopes?
12:33<@Belugas>hello yeti_
12:33<yeti_>who of you broke zooming in in latest trunk ;) ?
12:33|-|skidd13 [~skidd13@p548A5293.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd
12:33<+glx>yeti_: check the logs :)
12:33<maddy>nightly build
12:34<@Belugas>unfortunately, i cannot tell you, Wolf01, since it's not finished yet :D
12:34<Wolf01>lol XD
12:34<@Belugas>but surely it will, given the grf authors provided the callbacks for it
12:34<@Belugas>and now...
12:34<@Belugas>see you
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12:34<yeti_>according to the svn log, it was truelight ;)
12:34<Wolf01>why cia logs site is dead?
12:35<TrueBrain>yeti_: what is broken about it?
12:35<Wolf01>i hope is not another dns problem... i'll kill somebody tomorrow
12:36<yeti_>TrueBrain: on my linux build, when i zoom in, it doesn't zoom in, and when i try to scroll around the map when "zoomed in", the whole screen turns into a big mess
12:36<skidd13>I noticed that too.
12:36<yeti_>TrueBrain: also, in the city windows, the city does not appear any more
12:36<TrueBrain>yeti_: latest version?
12:37<yeti_>yes, 9846
12:37<hylje>r9829, linux, zooming works as intended
12:37<TrueBrain>hmm... git <-> svn sync failed badly :s
12:37<yeti_>of course it does in 9829, the zooming code changes were done in 984* :)
12:38<hylje>zomg git
12:38<yeti_>git?! why? ;)
12:39<peterbrett>TrueBrain: git?!?! Where!!
12:39<boekabart>Q: how do I set the server password to nothing? (dedicated server, console)
12:39<TrueBrain>I use git for OpenTTD developing
12:39<TrueBrain>just pushing things to SVN doesn't always go as planned
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12:40<hylje>:o
12:40<TrueBrain>the question now is, where did it go wrong...
12:40[~]glx tries to find the faulty rev
12:41<@Rubidium>git-bisect !
12:41<TrueBrain>Rubidium: hehe :)
12:41<TrueBrain>too bad recompiling each revision takes for ever :s
12:41<+glx>yes
12:41<peterbrett>TrueBrain: Can you put your git clone of the svn master on repo.or.cz so I can clone it?
12:42<TrueBrain>lol, why would I? :p Hehe :)
12:42<MeusH>@seen MiHaMiX
12:42<@DorpsGek>MeusH: MiHaMiX was last seen in #openttd 3 weeks, 0 days, 23 hours, 45 minutes, and 14 seconds ago: <MiHaMiX> Rubidium: err... i don't really know, i'll test it
12:42<TrueBrain>they have many many gits :s
12:42<peterbrett>TrueBrain: By attempt to use git-svnimport keeps stalling on r8253
12:42<peterbrett>I mean 8453
12:42<peterbrett>s/By/My/
12:42<TrueBrain>peterbrett: here it only failed in the branch -> branches renaming
12:42<peterbrett>Argh
12:43<TrueBrain>so I just trashed everything older :p
12:43<TrueBrain>(r5XXX)
12:43<+glx>9844 is ok
12:43<peterbrett>TrueBrain: I got over that quite easily using the -b switch
12:43<TrueBrain>peterbrett: which doesn't work as you hoped ;)
12:43<TrueBrain>but okay, I might make the git public in a while
12:43<TrueBrain>first let me find this bug
12:43<peterbrett>TrueBrain: Do you use -m?
12:43<@peter1138>heh
12:43<@peter1138>yeah, that's really funky
12:44<TrueBrain>glx: it is 9846 itself
12:45<TrueBrain>peterbrett: as git is so easy to clone, it is enough for me to publish a single git via the openttd.org domain
12:45<TrueBrain>the rest it up to who ever cares :p
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12:45<TrueBrain>I just need to make some scripts to it keeps in sync with svn
12:45<peterbrett>TrueBrain: Yes, but it'll destroy your bandwidth if you don't make a git daemon available
12:45<TrueBrain>which is all I need to launch ;)
12:45<TrueBrain>personally I use ssh, but... that isn't available for non-devs :p
12:45<peterbrett>Awesomeness
12:45<TrueBrain>but okay, git has some downsides with OpenTTD
12:45<TrueBrain>lack of revision
12:46<peterbrett>sorry?
12:46<TrueBrain>lack of patches which state SVN revision
12:46<TrueBrain>more of that
12:46<peterbrett>Indeed.
12:46<peterbrett>That is a problem
12:46<@peter1138>it's crap, basically
12:46<TrueBrain>peter1138: not if we would all switch to git :p
12:46<peterbrett>I use stg to manage patches for another project, and then push them into CVS
12:46<TrueBrain>cvs :s
12:47<peterbrett>TrueBrain: yes, I know. I'm trying to persuade them to switch to git or mercurial
12:47<peterbrett>Actually, Mercurial might be better for openttd.
12:47<TrueBrain>mercurial.. that is basicly git, not? :)
12:47<peterbrett>Similar ideas, different implementation
12:47<TrueBrain>the web.cgi looked VERY simular :p
12:47<peterbrett>I don't think it's as good, but I'm sure other people would beg to differ.
12:48<TrueBrain>anyway, ssst, I have 12 minutes to find this bug
12:49<boekabart>Q again: how do I set the server password to nothing in the dedicated server console?
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12:51<@peter1138>*
12:52<@peter1138>for some reason
12:52<TrueBrain>peter1138: because nobody had a better suggestion back then :)
12:52<@peter1138>:)
12:52<TrueBrain>("" wasn't supported yet)
12:53<TrueBrain>peterbrett: why do you tihnk mercurial might be better for openttd? (I haven't looked it up yet or anything)
12:54<peterbrett>Better Windows support
12:54<peterbrett>And you do have a lot of Windows users
12:54<peterbrett>Basically, git is very Unixy, and uses lots of pipes and forks
12:54<boekabart>peter1138: thanks
12:54<peterbrett>Whereas Mercurial is written in Python
12:54<peterbrett>It's a bit slower, and has fewer really powerful tools written for it
12:55<TrueBrain>yeti_: bug fixed, tnx for reporting :)
12:55<peterbrett>AFAIK there's no StGit equivalent, for instance.
12:55<boekabart>better windows support than TortoiseSVN??
12:55<TrueBrain>@openttd commit
12:55<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: Commit by truelight :: r9848 trunk/src/zoom.hpp (2007-05-15 17:54:46 UTC)
12:55<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: -Fix r9846: how every many times you check something, of course you always switch them at the last moment... UnScaleByZoom was ScaleByZoom and visa versa... (tnx to yeti_ for noticing)
12:55<TrueBrain>better windows support isn't that much harder ;)
12:55<TrueBrain>hehe
12:55<+glx>just in time for the nightly
12:56<yeti_>TrueBrain: thx for fixing, i'll try it :)
12:56<boekabart>hm, i'm pretty happy with tortoisesvn.. works like a charm
12:56<Sacro|Laptop>s/visa/vice/
12:56<TrueBrain>SVN is nice and stuff, but not for development on the skill I want to :)
12:56<Wolf01>TrueBrain, i hope now it will be easier to make new zoom levels
12:56<peterbrett>TrueBrain: I had a nice conversation with Linus about that. He said that it wasn't his fault Windows was broken.
12:56<TrueBrain>peterbrett: that is not the first time I hear that argument, and how much it might or might not be true, we have to deal with Windows
12:57<peterbrett>TrueBrain: Quite. Which is why I suggest OpenTTD might prefer hg over git
12:57<TrueBrain>hg?
12:57<peterbrett>Mercurial. Hg = standard symbol for Mercury
12:57<TrueBrain>haha
12:57<TrueBrain>bad joke
12:57<peterbrett>Also the name of the command
12:58<TrueBrain>hg does have revision numbering :p
12:59<TrueBrain>it looks really simular to git :s
13:00<boekabart>peter1138: I added that * info to http://wiki.openttd.org/index.php/Console#Variables
13:00<peterbrett>TrueBrain: "A revision number is a simple decimal number that corresponds with the ordering of commits in the local repository. It is important to understand that this ordering can change from machine to machine due to Mercurial's distributed, decentralized architecture."
13:00<boekabart>Is it like trac?
13:00<peterbrett>i.e. Mercurial revision numbers mean, well, just about nothing
13:00<TrueBrain>peterbrett: which is fine, as OpenTTD will have a single centralized system that serves all things
13:00<TrueBrain>so it means enough :)
13:00<boekabart>eh, Darcs
13:00<boekabart>Is it like Darcs?
13:01<peterbrett>TrueBrain: But each developer will have their own repo which may or may not have numbers matching hg.openttd.org
13:01<TrueBrain>peterbrett: but that is not important, as I assume that on every synchronize, the one from hg.openttd.org is used
13:01<TrueBrain>if that is not true, it is useless :p
13:01<@Rubidium>why is everybody so into other source code managament tools? Don't think SVN will handle a 10 000 commits?
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13:02<peterbrett>Rubidium: SVN isn't as nice as git for things like maintaining patchsets
13:02<TrueBrain>Rubidium: I personally think SVN sucks, I have like 100 checkouts, taking up a lot of space
13:02<TrueBrain>and for what :s
13:02[~]Bjarni flames TrueBrain
13:02<TrueBrain>the tons of patches get lost in .patch files, which are impossible to sync up in a simple way
13:02<TrueBrain>brrr
13:02<@Bjarni>don't switch stuff when it works :p
13:02<TrueBrain>@kick Bjarni
13:02|-|Bjarni kicked [#openttd] DorpsGek [TrueBrain]
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13:02<TrueBrain>Now that was easy
13:02<@Rubidium>TrueBrain: you need stsvn or something like that :)
13:02<boekabart>Well the biggest disadvantage of SVN is managing your own and other peoples patches. Like TrueBrain says, you need a checkout for every one of them... or it's impossible to do version control on your patches
13:02<@Bjarni>hey nice feature
13:03<TrueBrain>stsvn?
13:03<@Rubidium>like stgit
13:03<peterbrett>stgit makes it SO EASY to manage patches it's actually mind boggling
13:03<TrueBrain>anyway, I am using git now, what, 2 weeks, and I am really happy with it
13:03<@Rubidium>don't know whether it exists for svn
13:03<TrueBrain>my own personal branches
13:03<TrueBrain>many commits to make up 1 SVN commit
13:03<MeusH>@kick Bjarni
13:04<TrueBrain>no worries when I want to try something, I can always revert
13:04<TrueBrain>(trying things inside a patch)
13:04<@Bjarni>@kick MeusH
13:04<TrueBrain>one more time and you both go
13:04<@Bjarni>he asked for it :p
13:05<TrueBrain>Rubidium: I personally rather make a local branch then use stgit :)
13:06<peterbrett>TrueBrain: Yeah, that works too. But when you have a set of changes which depend on each other, and you want to commit them into the main VCS in a sane order, being able to go backwards & forwards through the patches changing them is pretty damn handy
13:06<TrueBrain>true true
13:06<TrueBrain>and what I like about git too, is that you can make a local branch, share it with someone else and work together on something
13:06<TrueBrain>without doing that directly in SVN
13:07<peterbrett>yep
13:07<TrueBrain>(as SVN is nice and stuff to do so in a branch, but somehow it does suck when you are just trying something)
13:07<peterbrett>Doesn't pasky work on OpenTTD? IIRC he maintains cogito.
13:07<TrueBrain>so I guess I miss most the localbranch in SVN :)
13:07<TrueBrain>he does something with git yes, we noticed last time :p
13:07<TrueBrain>and he did newgrf work I bleieve
13:09<TrueBrain>anyway, I have to look into how to get git done on OpenTTD in a nice way
13:09<TrueBrain>currently it kind of sucks, mostly because of the SVN link :)
13:10<TrueBrain>(when there is a SVN commit, I need to update the svn git, my local git on openttd.org, rebase my local branches on openttd.org, then sync it with my working station :p)
13:10<peterbrett>Why not use git as the backend, and put a svn frontend on it?
13:10<TrueBrain>how do you mean?
13:10<peterbrett>There's a (IIRC pretty good) git-backed SVN server available
13:10<peterbrett>man:git-svn
13:10<TrueBrain>I use git-svn
13:11<TrueBrain>which results in the above complications :)
13:11<peterbrett>Ah.
13:11<peterbrett>Bother.
13:12<TrueBrain>an other annoying thing: when I have a localbranch, and I commit that to master, to svn-git, to SVN, and update back again
13:12<TrueBrain>I have a conflict in the localbranch from which the change came
13:12<TrueBrain>as the commit has an other uid
13:12<TrueBrain>so I need to reset the branch the change came from :p
13:12<TrueBrain>(which I of course mostly forget to do)
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13:21<@peter1138>hmm
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13:31<skidd13>Can anyone of the dev's comment my order movement patch?
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13:41<TrueBrain>peterbrett: I am redoing all git dirs and stuff as we speak, it should be ready in some hours for public usage
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13:45<peterbrett>TrueBrain: That is full of win
13:46<TrueBrain>sadly enough the git-daemon doesn't allow pushing
13:46<peterbrett>TrueBrain: I don't think that's a big problem
13:46<peterbrett>I'm sure contributors can use the normal patch-submission process for small changes
13:46<TrueBrain>it would have been nice if we could open up a git where everyone could push their branch to
13:46<peterbrett>Indeed.
13:47<TrueBrain>as we had a talk about that some time ago
13:47<TrueBrain>but it really needs either http via webdav or ssh...
13:47<TrueBrain>oh well
13:47<peterbrett>If you push the openttd repo to repo.or.cz
13:47<peterbrett>Then it would save you bandwidth ;)
13:48<TrueBrain>bandwidth is not really an issue
13:49[~]Belugas is reading skidd13'slast opus
13:50<TrueBrain>I even doubt git usage will show in the graphics..
13:50<TrueBrain>(bandwidth graphics that is)
13:51<peterbrett>8-o
13:51<peterbrett>What sort of bandwidth do you guys get through? Who bankrolls you?
13:51<TrueBrain>Google Ads bankrolls it for 50% or something
13:51<TrueBrain>the rest is on every page :p
13:52<peterbrett>Donations, right?
13:52<TrueBrain>nope
13:52<TrueBrain>Donations do currently not go into hosting costs
13:53<peterbrett>orudge?
13:53<hylje>owen rudge
13:53<TrueBrain>he handles tt-forums, which is partly by donations and google ads I believe
13:54<TrueBrain>(but okay, tt-forums isn't directly openttd related :))
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13:55<TrueBrain>reminds me I should update the hosted by thingy..
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13:56<TrueBrain>pff, svn import to git takes for ever :p
13:56<@orudge>peter1138? hylje?
13:56<@orudge>ah
13:56<@orudge>I see
13:56<@orudge>and not peter1138
13:56<TrueBrain>orudge: nothing important :)
13:57<peterbrett>Sorry
13:57<hylje>i for one know how you liek highlights :p
13:57<@orudge>Heh, no worries
13:59<TrueBrain>lol, there are 200k visits on www.openttd.org a month :)
13:59<TrueBrain>I love stats :)
13:59<TrueBrain>4M hits a month
13:59<TrueBrain>not bad for a simple game :p
13:59<peterbrett>TrueBrain: I'm surprised you haven't received legal threats yet
14:00<@peter1138>who what?
14:00<TrueBrain>where?
14:00<TrueBrain>:p
14:00<peterbrett>From whichever shell company currently "owns" the TTD IP
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14:01<TrueBrain>TTD?
14:01<peterbrett>Transport Tycoom Deluxe "intellectual property"
14:01<TrueBrain>Ah, I was wondering what TTD and IP had in common ;)
14:01<TrueBrain>I believe Belugas knows more about that :p
14:02<+glx>Atari is the current owner
14:03<peterbrett>Do you ever worry that they'll turn around and C&D you one day?
14:05<@orudge>C&D?
14:06<Noldo>cease and the D word
14:07[~]Belugas is amazed by the quality of skidd13's work
14:07<@Belugas>and the quantity too...
14:07<Noldo>peterbrett: I supose devs don't worry about it as the code rewriten quite a bit and the graphics a users' problem
14:07<@Belugas>Belugas knows about what?
14:08<skidd13>What?
14:08<@peter1138>qualtiy not quantity? ;p
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14:08<hylje>Belugas: wat?
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14:08<@Belugas>both, actually, from my point of view
14:09<@Belugas>granted, some code style have to be done
14:09<skidd13>sure
14:09<@Belugas>like spaces, tabs etc...
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14:09<peterbrett>Belugas: I take it you guys don't use indent (1)
14:09<@Belugas>personnaly, apart from that, i don't see anything bad...
14:10<@Belugas>peterbrett, we do indent, but using tabs when required
14:10<@Belugas>and spaces when required
14:10<peterbrett>Belugas: No, indent(1), the command
14:10<@Belugas>?
14:10<peterbrett>`man indent` on most systems
14:10[~]Belugas does not know such command
14:11<hylje>no manual entry for indent
14:11<peterbrett>Hmm.
14:11<+glx>peterbrett: we do it by hand :)
14:11[~]Belugas is working on winXP, msvc. TAB is a key
14:11<peterbrett>http://www.gnu.org/software/indent/
14:11<@Belugas>nice enough and simple enough to use
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14:12<@Belugas>[15:02] <peterbrett> Do you ever worry that they'll turn around and C&D you one day? <--- there is already an official query been addressed to Atari
14:12<@Belugas>it's not like they are not aware
14:12<peterbrett>Belugas: Glad to hear it.
14:12<hylje>apt-get install indent
14:12<@Belugas>we are waiting for an answer
14:12<@peter1138>being ;p
14:12<peterbrett>For how long?
14:12<@Belugas>bing bang bong
14:13<@Belugas>as ling lang long as it will please them
14:13<hylje>looks like `indent` could help code submissions
14:13<TrueBrain>indent sucks
14:14<@peter1138>only if you find the magic incantation to make it like we want it
14:14<peterbrett>peter1138: Dammit, you beat me to it ;)
14:14<@Belugas>no better tool than your own will
14:14<TrueBrain>which you can't in indent :p
14:14<peterbrett>peter1138: I was just typing out the phrase "magic incantation"
14:14<TrueBrain>there is an other tool that does it better, but still not like we want it ;)
14:14<@peter1138>atastyle
14:14<@peter1138>err
14:14<@peter1138>astyle
14:14<peterbrett>TrueBrain: `indent` is true wizardry
14:15<TrueBrain>astyle yes :) I even wrote the authors if they could add a switch
14:15<TrueBrain>they refused
14:15<TrueBrain>bastards
14:15<@peter1138>and it doesn't do things like complain about 'if (p && *p) ...'
14:15<TrueBrain>so we have to make our own :)
14:15<@peter1138>i suppose that would be 'if(p&&*p)' if it was dalestan, heh
14:16<TrueBrain>and if(*p) if you like to write broken code
14:17<peterbrett>I tend to write out the tests explicitly
14:17<peterbrett>It's more verbose, but it's oh so much easier to read.
14:17<TrueBrain>you should
14:18<@peter1138>we like 'if (p != NULL && *p != '\0') ...'
14:18<@peter1138>errr
14:18<@peter1138>assuming p is a char *
14:18<TrueBrain>peter1138: if (char *p != NULL && *p != '\0')
14:18<TrueBrain>;)
14:19<@peter1138>i don't think that's valid :p
14:19<TrueBrain>haha
14:19<TrueBrain>I hope not :)
14:19<@Belugas>prissi did something that i liked very much, by the way... it was somehting like "if (char *p != NULL && p != '\0')"
14:19<@Belugas>two spaces separating conditions
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14:20<TrueBrain>mkdir: unrecognized option `--bare'
14:20<TrueBrain>LOL!
14:20<TrueBrain>but in git? :)
14:20<@peter1138>Belugas: i hate that ;p
14:21<@peter1138>less annoying than 'if ( ( p != NULL ) && ( p != '\0' ) )' though
14:21<@peter1138>hmm, my big toe still hurts :/
14:22<peterbrett>peter1138: So that's why you're so grouchy ;P
14:23<@Rubidium>because he had to work when he was sick?
14:23<peterbrett>Rubidium: Sounds like a good reason to me
14:25<@Belugas>peter1138, it is a matter of style. i agree it looks strnage, but it has an advantage over clarity
14:25<@Belugas>it's easier for the eye to catch it
14:26<@Belugas>although the brain can be as fast
14:26<@Belugas>poor skiddl13...
14:26<@Belugas>i think he hopes some more critics
14:26<@Belugas>hoped
14:26<@Belugas>whatever
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14:31<TrueBrain>Belugas: like tons of other patch-creators...
14:32<@Belugas>skiddl13 is good. he has some good ideas, knows a lot the code, and is very easy to work with. Like Wolf01
14:33<TrueBrain>doesn't take away my comment ;)
14:33<@peter1138>Wolf01's a bit pushy ;p
14:33<TrueBrain>and he stinks
14:33<TrueBrain>:p
14:33<@peter1138>(no offence Wolf01)
14:33<peterbrett>Are there any plans for multi-threaded OpenTTD?
14:33<@Bjarni>not really
14:33<TrueBrain>OpenTTD is multi threaded!
14:33<TrueBrain>the NoAI branch even more!
14:33<TrueBrain>:)
14:33<Wolf01>don't worry, i'm stupid too ;)
14:33<peterbrett>E.g. having one thread for pathfinding, one thread for AI ?
14:33<@Bjarni>:)
14:33<TrueBrain>each AI has his own thread in NoAI
14:33<@Bjarni>nice
14:34<TrueBrain>okay okay, it doesn't mean anything
14:34<TrueBrain>else only one thread is active at a given time
14:34<TrueBrain>:)
14:34<@Bjarni>but will that be desync free?
14:34<TrueBrain>else = as
14:34<TrueBrain>Bjarni: no, therefor we made it
14:34<@Bjarni>great
14:34<@Bjarni>:D
14:34<TrueBrain>peterbrett: the basics of OpenTTD doesn't allow two threads to be active at the same time with map read/write access
14:34<TrueBrain>there simply isn't any locking on that level
14:34<TrueBrain>nor is it designed with that in mind
14:34<peterbrett>futexes 4tw!
14:35<peterbrett>(if you can work out how and whether they work)
14:35<TrueBrain>futexes 4tw?!
14:35<@Bjarni>I asked in the wrong way...
14:35<@Bjarni>TrueBrain: how do you make sure that using multiple threads will not cause any desyncs?
14:36<TrueBrain>Bjarni: by doing it the right way
14:36<@Rubidium>Bjarni: by not running more than one at a time...
14:36<@peter1138>Caught signal 11. Server aborting
14:36<@peter1138>garurgargharhgarg
14:36<@Bjarni>and what is the right way (apart from doing it without desyncs)
14:36<TrueBrain>Rubidium: I already told him that, doesn't seem to mean anything to him :p
14:37<@Bjarni>what is the point in having multiple threads if only one of them will be active at any given time?
14:37<TrueBrain>who said there was need for any point?
14:37<@Bjarni>that will not really make good use of multi core systems
14:37<TrueBrain>absolutely no use at all
14:37<@Rubidium>Bjarni: go read like 2 months of IRC backlog
14:37<TrueBrain>I think I will blog it tomorrow or something :)
14:38<@Bjarni>damn. Have I been that busy with uni for the past two months?
14:38<TrueBrain>pe
14:38<TrueBrain>peterbrett: anyway, don't expect real threads in any near future :)
14:39<peterbrett>TrueBrain: Is it on the "not-near-future to-do list"?
14:39<@peter1138>nope
14:39<TrueBrain>it is in no todo list
14:39<TrueBrain>as I tried to tell you, the basics of OpenTTD simply do not allow it
14:39<TrueBrain>(which in map-access)
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14:42<Eddi|zuHause3><Bjarni> what is the point in having multiple threads if only one of them will be active at any given time? <- the point is easy switching of contexts
14:42<@Belugas>peterbrett, it will require a total rewrite
14:42<TrueBrain>I am so glad one OpenTTD users understands it :)
14:42[~]TrueBrain hugs Eddi|zuHause3
14:42<Eddi|zuHause3>:)
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14:44<TrueBrain>in fact, as we have most map-writes in a nice wrapper, we could add locking ;)
14:44<@peter1138>have fun keeping sync for network games
14:44<TrueBrain>we only would need to split up the map in multiple locks, so we can lock only a small part of the map :p
14:44<TrueBrain>no real need, as any client would do the same
14:44<Eddi|zuHause3>parallel threads will be a network nightmare :)
14:45<Eddi|zuHause3>with free interleaving of threads, how can you be sure that all clients do things in the same order?
14:45<TrueBrain>you just need good moments to make sure all threads catch up :)
14:46<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause3: we also are sure that clients execute commands in the same order :) All about administration :)
14:46<TrueBrain>but okay, I don't see how threads will be useful in OpenTTD in general
14:46<TrueBrain>saveload was useful
14:46<TrueBrain>TGP was useful
14:46<TrueBrain>and I am sure there are other useful parts
14:46<TrueBrain>but not that many
14:46<TrueBrain>(okay, TGP isn't a real thread)
14:46<Eddi|zuHause3>but that "administration" thing would create a pretty big overhead
14:47<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause3: depends how you do it, or more: what you expect the threads to do
14:47<@Bjarni>anyway I think the point of the original question was if there are plans to make threads to run in parallel and we agree that the answer to that is no, right? (apart from background saving)
14:47<Eddi|zuHause3>yes :)
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14:47<TrueBrain>take for example pathfinding
14:47<TrueBrain>how would the game benifit from that running in a (parallel) thread?
14:48<TrueBrain>(say, SP only for now)
14:48<Zr40>one possible option would be for the GUI to run in a separate thread
14:48<TrueBrain>the only thing that might worth giving time, is splitting screen-updates from gamelogic
14:48<@Rubidium>it wouldn't, because the vehicle still has to wait for the parallel thread
14:48<TrueBrain>hehe @ Zr40 :)
14:48<TrueBrain>Rubidium: exactly :)
14:48<@Rubidium>Zr40: GUI uses like 0.001% of the CPU
14:48<TrueBrain>Rubidium: more the other way around: if you have 1000 trains
14:48<@peter1138>not on my machine it doesn't
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14:48<TrueBrain>it locks normal window scrolling
14:48<Zr40>Rubidium: then why does scrolling when zoomed out spike the CPU usage to 40%?
14:49<TrueBrain>so if you split it in threads, you can keep the window scrolling realtime
14:49<TrueBrain>while the rest is slower
14:49<Zr40>TrueBrain: not on dual core machines
14:49<TrueBrain>Zr40: I mean: while the rest hogs the CPU
14:49<@peter1138>you still have to wait
14:50<TrueBrain>peter1138: not if you make locking around map-access :)
14:50<TrueBrain>hehe :)
14:50<@Bjarni>I wondered about that. Having a thread for each vehicle type and then run all of them in parallel would speed up the game, but I realised that it would only work if the CPU load is evenly spread over multiple vehicle types (sucks for trains only) and it would produce problems like a train and a bus loads at the same station, but not in the same order on all clients in MP, so I discarded that idea
14:50<@peter1138>because you can't draw when things are in a semi-set state
14:50<TrueBrain>peter1138: not if you make locking around map-access :)
14:50<@peter1138>that'll just be slow ;p
14:50<@Bjarni>solving issues like that would take forever and cause us to add a not so nice overhead
14:50<TrueBrain>peter1138: yes
14:50<hylje>gui can assume graphical stuff
14:50<TrueBrain>peter1138: map-double-buffer! :)
14:51<@peter1138>lol
14:51<TrueBrain>inf act does solve the problem
14:51<TrueBrain>only needs twice the memory ;)
14:51<hylje>:o
14:51<@Bjarni>hehe
14:51<@Bjarni>I wondered about something like that
14:51<@peter1138>you also need to buffer all the other data structures...
14:51<Noldo>some copy on write thing there?
14:51<@peter1138>well, those changable ones
14:51<TrueBrain>peter1138: okay okay, true :)
14:51<@Bjarni>but I didn't really figure out if it were worth the time coding it
14:51<TrueBrain>so we end up with a game twice the memory, just so you can scroll with 1000 trains :p
14:52<TrueBrain>You know what... let's forget it :)
14:52<Zr40>something completely different... any progress on FS#104? :)
14:52<@Bjarni>"..., so I discarded that idea" I already said that
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15:11<Zr40>or put differently, anything I can do to have it move forward? :)
15:13<@Belugas>some lost tabs again, Zr40
15:13<@Belugas>a lot
15:14<Zr40>where? I was sure I've removed them all
15:14<Zr40>...from the GUI stuff
15:15[~]Zr40 can't find any stray tabs
15:15<@Belugas>well.. i have this text editor called notepad2. it shows tabs as red long arrows...
15:15<@Belugas>i'l give you a screenshot. wait
15:16<Zr40>I have this text editor called vim. It doesn't locate any \t within the widget array
15:17<@Belugas>http://devs.openttd.org/~belugas/tabs.png
15:18<Zr40>if you take a look at the original file, you'll see tabs
15:18<@peter1138>they need to go ;)
15:18<@peter1138>the lines which are just tabs, of course
15:18<@Belugas>i never said anything about the widget array, didn't i?
15:18<Zr40>according to grep, tabs are _everywhere_
15:18<@Belugas>yeah! the had to go :D
15:19<@Belugas>don't trust tools, trust your eyes
15:19<Zr40>I don't see any tab-only lines in your screenshot
15:19<@peter1138>strange, 'my' vim automatically removes those lines
15:19<Zr40>oh, wait
15:19<@Belugas>red arrows
15:19<Zr40>the green highlighting threw me off guard
15:19<@Belugas>pointing to nothing
15:19<@Belugas>lotsa
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15:21<hylje>wb
15:21<+glx>tabs in empty lines (aka trailing whitespaces)
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15:22<Zr40>tabs removed :)
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15:24<kaan>goodevening all
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15:27[~]Belugas forgot he is running Delphi and not some interpreted languages... code does not magically recompile :S
15:27<@Belugas>hello again skidd13
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15:28<skidd13>hi
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17:29<Sleepie>skidd13: just a question have you made any progress on your HQ's?
---Logclosed Tue May 15 17:29:17 2007
---Logopened Tue May 15 17:29:22 2007
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17:29|-|Ekipa kanalu #openttd: Wszystkich: 68 |-| +op [7] |-| +voice [2] |-| normalnych [59]
17:29<Sacro|Laptop>Eddi|zuHause3: no he doesn't
17:29<@Bjarni>http://www.qdb.us/87350 <-- LOL
17:29<Sacro|Laptop>he only threw the one, hence "die" is correct
17:30<SpComb>Bjarni: Eurythmics
17:30|-|Kanal #openttd zsynchronizowany w 68 sekundy
17:31<@peter1138>Sacro|Laptop: dies -> dice
17:31<Sacro|Laptop>SpComb: ftw
17:31<Sacro|Laptop>peter1138: i know
17:31<@peter1138>hence "dies" is incorrect ;p
17:31<Sacro|Laptop>ahh
17:31<Sacro|Laptop>s/dies/dice/
17:31<Sacro|Laptop>he used both in the sentance
17:31<@peter1138>just to confuzzle
17:31<@peter1138>sleepy time
17:31<@Bjarni>then again Sacro|Laptop might be more used to dies than dice
17:32<@peter1138>enough reimplemnting pbs for yapf ;p
17:32<@Bjarni>he lives in Hull after all
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17:32<Sacro|Laptop>grr
17:32<Sacro|Laptop>network is killing my tv
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17:33<@Bjarni>then don't watch TV
17:34<Sacro|Laptop>but i wanna :(
17:35<@Bjarni>you have the porn channel?
17:35<Eddi|zuHause3>"the" porn channel?
17:35<@Bjarni>well, in Denmark we have one porn channel
17:35<+glx>only one?
17:36<@Bjarni>I think so
17:36<Eddi|zuHause3>in germany, distributing porn over TV is illegal
17:36<@Bjarni>I have 0
17:37<@Bjarni>TV is broadcasting. You have no control of who watches what you transmit, so it kind of make sense
17:37<@Bjarni>here a TV station had a technical issue, so the computer decided to show hardcore porn instead of the children show
17:37<Eddi|zuHause3>often you'll find them broadcasting softporn during the night
17:38<@Bjarni>a whole lot of people got mighty upset
17:38<@Bjarni>that is what you get for trusting a computer to broadcast TV and then go home
17:38<Eddi|zuHause3>you might classify those more as "gymnastic exercises" than "softporn" :p
17:38<@Bjarni>heh
17:39<@Bjarni>so kind of like naked pole jumping?
17:39<Eddi|zuHause3>yeah
17:39<Eddi|zuHause3>with synchronised "oh"s and "ah"s :p
17:39<@Bjarni>lol
17:40<Eddi|zuHause3>honestly :)
17:41<@Rubidium>they synchronize that too?
17:41<@Bjarni>so they are broadcasting adult comedy at night then
17:42<Eddi|zuHause3>they synchronise _everything_ :p
17:42<@Bjarni>even German movies?
17:42<Eddi|zuHause3>i'm actually surprised they did not synchronise on MTV :)
17:43<@Rubidium>Das A-Team...
17:43<Eddi|zuHause3>Bjarni: actually, there was a swiss-german movie, and they synchronised it in high-german :)
17:43<+glx>Agence tous risques :)
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17:44<@Bjarni>here the only synchronisation is done to movies where the target audience are too young to read the subtitles
17:44<@Rubidium>it's not a worse as synchronising someone speaking Dutch with English and then subtitling it in Dutch
17:44<@Bjarni>it makes the experience of watching TV a whole lot better
17:45<@Rubidium>and you actually learn better english ;)
17:45<@Rubidium>ofcourse Germans are (or at least were) known to make their own words instead of taking words from other languages
17:45<@Bjarni>so you are saying that the Germans learn Engrish from their synchronisations?
17:46<Eddi|zuHause3>i don't know how much german you understand: about synchronising "A-Team": http://www.serienjunkies.de/news/kolumne-ich-15462.html
17:46<@Rubidium>no, that unsynchronized is better for your English
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17:50<@Bjarni>goodnight
17:50[~]Rubidium understands pretty much of it ;)
17:50<@Bjarni>yeah
17:51<@Bjarni>it's German
17:51<@Bjarni>it's not like it's meant to be tricky
17:51<@Rubidium>really stupid that the replace all references to Vietnam with something else ;)
17:51<@Bjarni>you see, the Germans are meant to understand it :p
17:52<Eddi|zuHause3>yeah, that's explained (a little) later in the article
17:53<@Bjarni>I read that in the German sync of Monsters Inc, the Yeti talks with a Swiss dialect and instead of whatever he says in English, he states that he wanted to be in the Alps instead because he has relatives there :D
17:53<Eddi|zuHause3>i don't remember much about Monsters Inc
17:54<@Bjarni>I never saw the German version. I just read this on IMDB or somewhere like it
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17:58<@Bjarni>anyway I better get some sleep now
17:58<@Bjarni>I didn't really sleep last night
17:58<@Bjarni>in fact I went to bed after sunrise :(
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19:21<muszek>hi
19:21<muszek>is it possible to auto-upgrade many trains to a newer model?
19:23<Sacro|Laptop>yup
19:26<Sleepie>http://wiki.openttd.org/index.php/Autoreplace ;)
19:26<muszek>thanks guys
19:27<Sleepie>you're welcome
19:28<Sleepie>anyway time for sleep now by all
19:28<Sacro|Laptop>night Sleepie
19:29<Sleepie>g'night Sacro
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20:16<Ailure>http://wiki.openttd.org/index.php/Exor
20:16<Ailure>there's something cute with pages like that one
20:16<Ailure>!logs
20:16<SpComb>Logs: http://zapotek.paivola.fi/~terom/logs/openttd
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---Logclosed Wed May 16 00:00:26 2007