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#openttd IRC Logs for 2007-05-16

---Logopened Wed May 16 00:00:26 2007
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01:55<independence>is there some way I can get the sourcecode that's used to generate this:
01:57<@Rubidium>svn:// and svn://
01:57<independence>oh, thanks!
01:57<independence>can I browse the svn repository via http someplace?
01:58<@Rubidium>nope, we had trac but it used way too many resource for some (totally) unknown reason
02:05<boekabart>independence: if you're on Windows, you can use TortoiseSVN to browse the repository.
02:06<Phazorx>if (CHANCE16I(20 + (i->pct_transported[j] * 20 >> 8), 1024, r >> 16))
02:06<Phazorx> new_prod += ((RandomRange(50) + 10) * old_prod) >> 8;
02:06<Phazorx>does that mean with increase of pct_transported chance increases?
02:07<Phazorx>that *20 >> 8 is a bit confusing since i dont recall oreder it will be executed in cpp
02:08<@Rubidium>first mulitplication, then bitwise shifts
02:09<independence>Rubidium: masterserver_updater get's info from the masterserver and puts it into a mysql table for the php-script to read or how does it work?
02:09<independence>I want to make something that queries my server and checks how many players are online, and then puts that on my website
02:09<@peter1138>Phazorx: yes
02:10<Phazorx>peter1138: somehow i fail to see that working over long period of time :/
02:10<Phazorx>i mean ingame
02:11<@Rubidium>masterserver_update are two different things; one side is the masterserver that gets queries etc. from the game itself (server online, server offline, what servers are there). The updater checks (regularly) whether the servers are still online and updates the statistics of the servers (this data is shown on the website).
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02:12<@Rubidium>so what you probably want is a modified updater which does not remove the server from the database when it goes offline, because then it isn't added again because you should register to the 'real' masterserver otherwise noone can find you
02:15<@peter1138>Phazorx: basically it ranges from 1:50 to 1:25 chance. still low.
02:16<@peter1138>Phazorx: decrementing is fixed at 1:50
02:16<@peter1138>1:51.2 -> 1:26.2564 ... heh
02:16<Phazorx>peter if my math is not failimg me miserably it does not get even close to 1:25
02:16<independence>What I'd like is to write something in python to just query the server and get the number of clients that are online, preferrably without running any daemon or so :)
02:16<Phazorx>100*20/256 ~ 8
02:17<Phazorx>so with 0 it is 20 + 0, with 100 it is ~28
02:17<Phazorx>28/1024 isnt 1.25 :/
02:17<@peter1138>if (r <= (65536 * (20 + (255 * 20) / 256) / 1024))
02:18<Phazorx>hmm... i gusee i dont know how chance16i works in 1st place
02:18<@peter1138>#define CHANCE16I(a, b, v) ((uint16)(v) <= (uint16)((65536 * (a)) / (b)))
02:18<Phazorx>second param is not scale relative to 12st?
02:18<@Rubidium>independence: then take a look at trunk/src/network/core/udp.[ch]pp
02:19<Phazorx>and i gues it was wrong for me to assume that pct+* is actually percent
02:20<Phazorx>now i see 1:25, thanks
02:21<@peter1138>that's for smooth economy, of course
02:21<Phazorx>yeah, that's what i am questioning
02:21<Phazorx>coopers have some weird rule of keeping rating between 65 and 75 i was trying to come to bottom of that
02:22<Phazorx>i was usualy making sure it is as high as possible
02:22<@peter1138>the code doesn't agree with them, heh
02:22<Phazorx>but in reality neither of aproaches guarantiees anything even over very long time
02:22<Phazorx>peter1138: reality doesnt agree with code either btw :)
02:23<Phazorx>for any used industry there should be a steady increase over 200 years of gametime
02:24<Phazorx>actually i take that back
02:24<Phazorx>changes arent relative
02:24<@peter1138>the changes are random too, yes
02:24<@peter1138>so even if it goes up, it may only go up a tiny bit
02:24<Phazorx>random but i meant scale of changes isnot same even if chances are
02:25<Phazorx>as in if old is 100 and it decreases 10 % it is 90 now
02:25<Phazorx>and if next month it increases 10% it is 99
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02:26<Phazorx>a bit unfair :)
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02:41<boekabart>Actually I think if those increases are truly random by percentage, Pharzox' observation would lead to a decrease in production on average, over time.
02:48<independence>what are the dependencies for building openttd dedicated server on linux?
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02:51<independence>I need sdl for dedicated server also?
02:52<@blathijs>don't think so
02:52<@blathijs>The graphics files are needed, though
02:56<TrueBrain>morning all
02:56<boekabart>morning TrueBrain
02:59<@peter1138>i'm at work now :(
03:01<boekabart>sometimes we do things just because we need the money
03:01<TrueBrain>poor thing
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03:15<independence>===> Linking openttd
03:15<independence>fontcache.o: In function `LoadFreeTypeFont':
03:15<independence>fontcache.c:(.text+0x9a4): undefined reference to `FcFini'
03:15<independence>anyone knows what could be wrong?
03:15<@Rubidium>an (too) old version of libfontconfig
03:16<boekabart>a(n) (too) old.. actually ;)
03:16<@Rubidium>boekabart: a(n too) old...
03:17<boekabart>Rubidium: no, a[n | too] old...
03:17<independence>whoever wrote the .ebuild for gentoo forgot about fontconfig I suppose, it's not in the deps for the package :)
03:17<@Rubidium>doh ;)
03:18<TrueBrain>make a bug-report
03:18<TrueBrain>(in their bug-tracker)
03:20<TrueBrain>'git' can drive me crazy :(
03:20<TrueBrain>more: git-svn can drive me crazy :p
03:21<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r9855 /trunk/src/command.cpp: -Fix: [FS#779] do not perform any commands on MP_VOID tiles.
03:21<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r9856 /branches/0.5/command.c:
03:21<CIA-1>OpenTTD: [0.5] -Backport from trunk (r9855):
03:21<CIA-1>OpenTTD: - Fix: Do not perform any commands on MP_VOID tiles [FS#779] (r9855)
03:21<@Rubidium>oh oh... they've missed some commit mails
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03:30<TrueBrain>I believe I now have a nice git2svn portal
03:30<TrueBrain>and a working git in general
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03:41<peterbrett>TrueBrain: That is full of win.
03:42<peterbrett>May I destruction test it?
03:42<peterbrett>(later, because I have to go to lectures now...)
03:43<Phazorx>boekabart: actually if you just leave the game running forever - all come to minimal output
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03:44<Phazorx>and i think changes in production should be made a bit more rewarding to used industriy and perhaps less random
03:44<@peter1138>remember you are transporting cargo, not affecting supply & demand
03:45<Phazorx>i'm thinking more from gameplay point of view rather than reality
03:46<Phazorx>targete goods and flexible transport fees would make a whole different game
03:47<boekabart>peter1138: you ARE affecting it anyway: remember the closures due to supply problems?
03:47<@peter1138>true :p
03:47<boekabart>anyway, if you're not affecting it, average production should stay the same or grow over time, not get less
03:48<Phazorx>i was talking about 1st tier only
03:48<boekabart>actually it should grow a lot, 1:1 with country population size
03:49<Phazorx>however it would be nice if some things would evolve in similar fasion to oil well/rigs
03:49<boekabart>how do they?
03:49<Phazorx>one is available only till certain date and one only after
03:49<Phazorx>i'm thinking cola age should end soon and be replaed by uranium for example
03:50<Phazorx>so power plant would go nuclear
03:50<boekabart>cola age, cool
03:50<boekabart>and it would output nuclear waste that should be taken to sellafield ;)
03:50<Phazorx>yup 2 tiers
03:50<Phazorx>more tiers = more fun imo
03:51<@peter1138>basically, increasing production just because you're transporting everything makes it too easy ;p
03:51<@peter1138>up and up and away
03:51<Phazorx>and, this is something that is easy to do and i really like - a factory should have different ratio depending on how many different cargo types it takes
03:51<Ailure>there's one thing that I wondered about TTD
03:51<boekabart>Pharzorx: you do know that we still dig up coal nowadays, right? For both making power and melting metal.
03:51<Ailure>is paper really transported that way? D:
03:52<Phazorx>boekabart: i do know that, however it is not most common way to produce energy now
03:52<boekabart>peter1138: i'm just saying that on average, the random fluctuation should tend towards growing a certain %% per year, not go lower
03:52<boekabart>Pharzorx: Depends on the country. In the US and France, it isn't. In the Netherlands, it is.
03:53<boekabart>Pharzorx: your nick is too hard to type.
03:53<Phazorx>boekabart: well what i was implying - technology and resource consumption changes
03:53<Phazorx>boa Pha<tab>
03:53<boekabart>did not know that.
03:54<boekabart>every client does that?
03:54<@peter1138>err.... most
03:54<Phazorx>anyway - once network is setup there is not much to do aside of adding trains
03:54<Phazorx>boekabart: you gotta be kidding me...
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03:55<boekabart>really, didn't. Probably my last client (AdiIRC) didn't... now I'm using Pidgin
03:55<Phazorx>well there you are :)
03:55<@peter1138>wtf, gaim is now pidgin?
03:55<@peter1138>how lame
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03:56<Phazorx>and industries - it would give more variety to game if types of cargo change or at least price for cargo changes
03:56<@peter1138>Phazorx: probably possible with newindustries/newcargos
03:56<Phazorx>i can see how coal is lucrative in steam age... but then it is oil...
03:56<Phazorx>peter1138: would be nice
03:56<Ailure>in the world of TT
03:56<Ailure>demand is infinite
03:56<Ailure>supply is limited
03:56<@peter1138>i.e. make newgrfs instead of messing with the default game ;)
03:56<Phazorx>however that changes gameplay quite a bit some migth not like that
03:57<Ailure>Some infamous player transported all his trains to his company HQ
03:57<Ailure>that was in the corner of the map
03:57<Phazorx>peter1138: something that i want in default is growth of output of factory proportional not only to raw 1st tier but also types
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03:57<Phazorx>like 1:1 for each kidna if that is only one within last month
03:57<boekabart>Ailure: company headquarters accept what?
03:58<Phazorx>but if you deliver 2 kinda you get bonsu 10%, 3 kinda - 30
03:58<Ailure>it was a one-way ride too
03:58<Ailure>so he kept dumping passengers and mail at the HQ :P
03:58<boekabart>until it exploded?
03:59<Ailure>while the passenger/mail production is relativly non-existant
03:59<Phazorx>i knoew it generates but didnt know it accepts as well
03:59<boekabart>hm, passenger destinations will solve that I hope :)
03:59<Ailure>compared to the amount it accepts
04:00<Ailure>some kind of demand system might help too
04:00<boekabart>first we need custom bridgeheads and diagonal bridges :)
04:00<Ailure>mostly so players can't do insane dropoffs like that :p
04:00<Ailure>Some newIndustries does this already infact
04:01<Ailure>They stock cargo
04:01<Ailure>and if the stock get's full, the industry stops accepting the cargo
04:01<boekabart>would be goo, imagine you'll have your goods-from-factory trains running around a number of cities until empty (cities accept only limited amount per month)
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04:01<kaan>goodmorning :)
04:02<boekabart>basically the same could apply for goods-accepting building right, they stock a limited amount, and consume so-much per month/tileLoop
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04:02<boekabart>i'm pretty sure there's actually room for that in the current map array, right?
04:03<boekabart>that would make goods runs so much more realistic....
04:04<boekabart>and much more interesting
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04:04<TheJosh>Hey all
04:05<boekabart>we'd need another order type: go there if not empty (actually, that could be done by not going somewhere if UNLOAD is set and train==empty
04:05<TheJosh>what about 'go non-stop once full'
04:06<TheJosh>or go via once full
04:06<boekabart>once not empty
04:06<TheJosh>same thing
04:06<boekabart>i'm just saying... would be a good feature anyway, to not-go somewhere if it's just to unload and train is empty
04:07<TheJosh>for loops with a piece going off that goes to the unload point direct, and a waypoint so it goes to one if theres room or the other if its full
04:07<@peter1138>for buildings, no room in the map array
04:07<@peter1138>for industries and towns it could be done easily
04:07<boekabart>peter1138: How come there's no room in the map array for buildings, what do the need to much data for?
04:07<TheJosh>imagine a system where orders could be fully programmed with if statements and stuff
04:07[~]TheJosh thinks about making a patch
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04:08<boekabart>TheJosh: squirrel ;)
04:08<TheJosh>if (condition) then
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04:08[~]TheJosh thinks
04:08<@peter1138>boekabart: heh, newhouses
04:09<@peter1138>animation stages and the like
04:09<@peter1138>most aren't animated but that's besides the point
04:12<TheJosh>i also think we need a system where you can say (orders):
04:12<TheJosh>go to <station>
04:12<TheJosh>at station: load 50% coal
04:12<TheJosh>load 20% iron ore
04:12<TheJosh>load/unload passengers
04:13<TheJosh>i have some really complex ideas for stations. ill put togehter a example screenshot of my ideas...
04:14<Brianetta>Better than a screenshot would be a design doc
04:14<Brianetta>show how you expect everything to function
04:15<Brianetta>let the devs see how that could work with the existing code
04:16<boekabart>peter1138: map.m7 is also taken up by newhouses already?
04:16<@peter1138>of course, that's why it was added
04:16<TheJosh>yeah. i should of gotten pre-approval before i made my 'found a town' patch
04:16<boekabart>but... per town is weird, since acceptance of goods @ a station is building-based right?
04:16<TheJosh>now i think the devs dont want it because it will stuff up the game balance or soemthing
04:18<kaan>TheJosh: making a patch just because you feel like it is a perfectly valid reason.
04:19<boekabart>... but not every idea can make it into the game, it'd become a mess
04:19<TheJosh>kann: but if it gets into trunk its sooo much better.
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04:20<@peter1138>no approval is needed, heh
04:20<@peter1138>just don't make things too big
04:20<kaan>TheJosh: you meant to say that it is good for your ego, right? ;)
04:20<@peter1138>like my original diagonal tracks under bridges patch
04:20<@peter1138>and the subsidiaries patch
04:21<TheJosh>kann: no its not that
04:21<TheJosh>kann: but if 3 people play it, whats the point?
04:22<boekabart>TheJosh: YOU play it, YOU enjoy it, that's the main point. Every other person is a bonus right?
04:22<TheJosh>i never have enough money to found a town
04:22<kaan>TheJosh: if noone like a bizarre peice of art and its isnt shown in galleries, will it make the artist less of an artist?
04:23<boekabart>getting it in trunk is mainly ego, i think, plus you won't have to worry about maintaining your patch anymore... which actually might be the biggest plus.
04:24<TheJosh>i would just like to see others enjoy it. meh, i dont really mind, people already enjoy the 'soem towns are larger when the game starts' patch
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04:24<kaan>well i can understand that point of view
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04:27<kaan>when i was deciding on if i should go ahead and make bottd the major points were that it would be useful for the community as a whole and that people would use it ... that and i would like to be able to play specific builds online with my brother who dont know anything about compiling ;)
04:28<TheJosh>bottd being BuildOTTD?
04:29<kaan>yes :)
04:29<TheJosh>good tool
04:29<TheJosh>im on linux, so no use for me
04:29<kaan>well, its useful for its purpose
04:29<TheJosh>do you know c++ ??
04:29<kaan>i had a single semester course in it back in 2002 :P
04:30<TheJosh>enough to port the app to c++/gtk2 for cross-platform support (just an idea)
04:31<kaan>I thought a lot about that when i was designing it ... my reasoning is that it is just soooo much easyer to make a perl script on linux than to make this app for it
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04:31<kaan>it would be a rewrite anyway
04:32<TheJosh>of course
04:32<kaan>and on top of that i cant imagine how it would be for mac
04:32<TheJosh>although gtk is broader than linux
04:32<@Rubidium>kaan: assume that it's the same as for unix
04:32<TheJosh>gtk in windows/linux and osx
04:32<kaan>problem is that it isnt
04:32<TheJosh>you would also need some platform-specific code
04:33<TheJosh>too hard? good point
04:33<kaan>well if you look at the code base you will discover that most code in there is platform specific
04:33<@Rubidium>just use the generic unix approach: build a console version that does everything and then make a simple graphical shell around that
04:34<kaan>yes, and that console version would be a bash script going "./configure && make"
04:34<kaan>ok thats a it simplistic
04:34<@Rubidium>kaan: no, it would revert and patch too
04:35<kaan>but my point is that bottd is made for widows filesystem with mingw in it, not at all like linux where you can toss most of those limitations and just make a simple script
04:35<@Rubidium>kaan: don't forget to revert *and* remove files that aren't in svn when applying a new patch
04:36<@Rubidium>otherwise when you apply the same patch once again, the new files (that aren't in svn) will contain the code twice making compilation fail
04:38<kaan>Rubidium: im working on revert, its on my todo list :) those errors are too strange for the unsuspecting user and a design goal was to make it easy for the playtester without much knowledge
04:38<@peter1138>not for desolator to build binaries all the time?
04:39<kaan>well, maybe he could do it anyway ;)
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04:40<kaan>one of my design assumptions was that people on linux was probably way to skilled to need bottd has been punctured though, i have seen a few linux users who could have used a simple entrypoint
04:43<TheJosh>meh im off
04:43<TheJosh>cya all round
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04:43<kaan>ok, bye :)
04:44<Brianetta>Some Linux users don't even have a compiler installed
04:44<Brianetta>It's no longer standard on many distributions
04:44<Brianetta>Now Linux is starting to reach mainstream, there are more clueless users, too
04:45<kaan>well thats where i failed to know reality, back in 1999 when i first tried linux it was its prime feature for me :)
04:46<Ammller>ottd is still the only thing I have compiled on my linux box
04:47<kaan>Ammller: if you want to go have an initiation rite then i can reccomend kompiling a new kernel custom build for your hardware :)
04:48<@peter1138>kompiling :D
04:48<kaan>sorry :P
04:48<@Rubidium>ooh, kde ;)
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04:51<Ammller>kaan: I belong to the category Brianetta introduced...
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04:52<Brianetta>Don't blame me
04:52<Ammller>clueless users
04:52<kaan>hardly, you did after all compile ottd on your own :)
04:52<Brianetta>I didn't introduce it. I am just a witness.
04:52<Ammller>I use openoffice more than the compiler
04:52<Brianetta>Linux doesn't give me that smug, elitist feeling any more ):
04:52<kaan>so do i
04:52<Brianetta>Back in the early nineties it did
04:53<Ammller>and sadly sometimes, I need Virtualbox for MS Access
04:54<kaan>i like both linux and windows, makes me want to go get a mac mini for some reason
04:56<Brianetta>I dislike Windows
04:56<kaan>now i have to ask you why :P
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04:56<Brianetta>I upgraded from DOS to Linux a long time ago
04:56<Brianetta>Windows has never been as useable for me
04:56<Brianetta>You can't even have a decent sloppy focus
04:56<Brianetta>If you want to use a window, Windows forces it to the top
04:57<Brianetta>I remember trying the Windows 95 beta
04:57<Brianetta>but it wasn't as good as my X workstation with FVWM
04:57<@Rubidium>Windows is basically the equivalent to the unix kernel (conceptually). For windows you need to install like a thousand applications to become really useful
04:57<Brianetta>which multitasked better
04:57<Brianetta>Command line multitasking is something I miss on Windows
04:58<@Rubidium>and for Windows you do not have the choice to not have a GUI
04:58<Brianetta>being able to run a job, and kick it into the background if it's taking a while
04:58<Brianetta>in Windows I have to stat a new cmd.exe, and do without the command history
04:58<boekabart>Brianetta: That's what 4nt is for
04:58<kaan>command line multitasking in dos would have been useful, in windows not so much
04:58<Brianetta>boekabart: I used 4dos on DOS
04:58<Brianetta>but third party apps have one huge problem
04:58<Brianetta>They're not ubiquitous
04:59[~]boekabart is looking that word up in the dictionary
04:59<Brianetta>You go to sort out some machine, and it won't have all your favourite third party toys
04:59<kaan>Brianetta: thats true on every platform
05:00<kaan>although i do miss vi a lot on win
05:00<Brianetta>kaan: Yes - which is why a system which includes good design as standard is my favourite.
05:00<Brianetta>Every Unix shell supports Ctrl-Z and then bg to give you the prompt back
05:01<kaan>we can easily agree that unix/linux have the better systems design of the two
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05:02<kaan>but at least for now, windows more generally has the better user experience
05:02<kaan>both are important
05:03<Ammller>kaan: you mean, they have the better marketing?
05:04<kaan>Ammller: no i mean that they windows has the best overall userfriendlyness
05:04<@Rubidium>kaan: for me windows' user experience isn't really that great
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05:05<kaan>well, its not pretty if that is what you mean
05:05<Ammller>wll, that is very subjective
05:05<kaan>its not working perfectly eighter
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05:06<Ammller>I have bought a new Dell 6400, cleared everything, installed vista and suse
05:07<kaan>but when the scores is counted most people like windows better: and hold your horses here, im not talking sales or install base, im talking what i have seen around and what i personally think about both OS
05:07<@Rubidium>kaan: most of the install base is due to ignorance
05:07<Ammller>suse is running without any additional work, im afraid to every bring vista running with wlan etc.
05:07[~]peter1138 ponders if he could run his windows apps in a vm these days
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05:07<@peter1138>visual studio & outlook, mostly
05:08<kaan>Rubidium: i agree, but that doesnt alter my argument one bit
05:10<@Rubidium>kaan: If you would pay $huge amount so all major computer manufacturers only deliver their hardware with Debian, I guess Debian becomes the "best" OS
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05:11<kaan>Rubidium: in a real world scenario that might be true, but that doesnt alter my opninion that windows has the better user overall user experience
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05:12<@Rubidium>kaan: and that's because everybody thinks linux is not used widely enough to develop for
05:12<boekabart>kaan: Rubidium: please stop this discussion now
05:13<kaan>are you sure Rubidium? i would have said it was because the userinterface is well thought through
05:14<kaan>ok, ill stop, its not like im gaining anything by this futile attempt to explain my views ;)
05:15<@Rubidium> and (I kinda agree with him)
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05:42<geoffk>peter1138, its possible to run windows vm's on Xen and vmware if your cpu supports VT technology, i never tried it though
05:43<kaan>well i have read those links now, and i happen to agree on most points made. But that still doesnt change anything in respect to the overall user experience being better on windows :P
05:43<boekabart>oh stop it :)
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06:41<SpComb>silly bug things
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07:28<boekabart>does signal gui + autocomplete have any chance of getting included in trunk?
07:30<Eddi|zuHause2>probably not in combination...
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07:34<@peter1138>unstable shit :p
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09:21<SpComb>seems to be pretty popular, that !logs thing
09:22<@Belugas>yeah... more popular than the bookmark thing ;)
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09:23<peterbrett>That's pretty cool
09:23<peterbrett>I like
09:24<SpComb>what is pretty cool? The !logs thing? Is not, it's ugly
09:25<@peter1138>it's better than the new one ;p
09:25<SpComb>is not
09:25<@peter1138>less crap around it
09:25<SpComb>fixed at GMT+3! No automatic polling! Looks ugly!
09:25<SpComb>you mean the grey background?
09:25<@peter1138>no, i mean the junk that takes up room
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09:26<@peter1138>let's make it a tiny window with a scrollbar :/
09:27<SpComb>it's larger than the old one! Well, perhaps less wide, but as tall
09:27<peterbrett>SpComb: Broken in Konqueror
09:27<SpComb>and you can make it taller (currently only in one direction)
09:27<SpComb>peterbrett: broken in what way? I don't have konqueror available, I've only tested on Firefox 2.0
09:28<peterbrett>New text appears, but on the same line as the last thing said, so the frame gets wider and wider
09:28<SpComb>and, of course, the layout of the page is changeable
09:28<peterbrett>And Konqueror passes ACID2, so I suspect an ECMAScript problem.
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09:29<SpComb>well, sounds like more of a HTML issue
09:30<SpComb>I think sticking each line into their own element (possibly even a div, scrapping the pre) would probably help with that
09:31<peterbrett>you need something with display:block
09:31<peterbrett>So yeah, div would do it
09:31<SpComb>currently I'm just very careful with my newlines
09:32<SpComb>but aside from that, isn't it nice and spiffy? :P
09:32<SpComb>I quite like the layout myself, but I guess not everyone likes the same thing
09:32<Eddi|zuHause2>i agree with peter1138. leave out the stuff on the left, maybe make it at the top, or a separate menu page
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09:33<Eddi|zuHause2>it takes up precious room for no reason
09:34<SpComb>a seperate menu page for the channel selection? :o
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09:34<SpComb>and sticking a two-level tree horizontally...?
09:35<Eddi|zuHause2>why the need for a tree?
09:35<Eddi|zuHause2>why have the "tree" fully visible at all times?
09:36<SpComb>have it drop down from a button in the top nav menu? That might work
09:37<Eddi|zuHause2>well, it would also work if you just have a line for each tree level, and only have one branch of the tree open at the same time, like if you click on "oftc" on the first line, the channels on oftc show up in the second line
09:41<SpComb>then I'd need to somehow fit in three lines (or figure out some way to have them appear, ugh, javascript navigation)
09:42<@peter1138>can be css only
09:42<@peter1138>yay for css navigation
09:42<Eddi|zuHause2>and the "show more lines" thing looks pretty useless... you could make that exponentially or something, so you don't have to click 200 times to get the logs of the whole day
09:43<SpComb>Eddi|zuHause2: it's still an early model of that feature, I'm trying to work in full-featured scrolling
09:43<Eddi|zuHause2>and possibly enter date and time, and a search function
09:43<SpComb>it has search
09:43<SpComb>but yes, scroll to date/time/start of day
09:44<Eddi|zuHause2>that search thing is really invisible
09:44<SpComb>I'll have to do a fair bit of reworking to do the scrolling sensibly
09:44<SpComb>hey, I'm not a UI designer :P
09:45<Eddi|zuHause2>and about the konqueror problem: the first new line appears allright, but all consecutive new lines get added to the same line
09:45<SpComb>yeah, it's probably some issue with there being a newline somewhere, or it not regarding the <script> as a newline, or *something*
09:46<Eddi|zuHause2>and the last line has graphics glitches, when you scroll to the right, the black background sticks out to the left
09:46<SpComb>having a seperate block-level element for each line should clear that up (and will be part of the scrolling thing)
09:46<SpComb>hopefully using a div will let me have it wrap the text as well, which doesn't really work with the current pre setup
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09:58<SpComb>peter1138: also, would the three levels of navigation bars be visible all the time, or would they appear when hovered over?
09:59<@peter1138>er, up to you?
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10:38<boekabart>Using the waterfall graphics leppka made.
10:39<@Bjarni>how does the waterfall work with ships?
10:39<@Bjarni>one way access? :p
10:39<Eddi|zuHause2>boekabart: the sprite looks like an obiwan in the .grf
10:39<boekabart>Eddi|zuHause2: ????
10:39<@peter1138>doesn't tile well :)
10:39<@peter1138>boekabart, how does that play with the other water patch stuff?
10:40<boekabart>Bjarni: do they look like a ship could travel up there!?
10:40<@peter1138>water flow...
10:40<boekabart>peter1138: this is the patch you did some work on too
10:40<@Bjarni> <boekabart> Bjarni: do they look like a ship could travel up there!? <--- well. It depends on the ship. It's not like it's vertical waterfalls
10:40<@peter1138>but the more interesting rivers with flow...?
10:40<Eddi|zuHause2>boekabart: the sprite is one pixel off, it has white and black lines where they don't belong
10:41<boekabart>Bjarni: a hovercraft maybe. Those spots are rocks, not floating obiwans :)
10:41<Eddi|zuHause2>an "off by one" -> "obiwan"
10:41<boekabart>Eddi|zuHause2: I know, read the post ;) waiting for leppka to fix them
10:41<@Bjarni>oh they are rocks. I thought it was the water itself
10:41<@Bjarni>why are the waterfalls so rocky?
10:42<Eddi|zuHause2>i don't really like the rock things...
10:42<Eddi|zuHause2>it does not look right
10:43<@peter1138>Bjarni, so boats can't go up it ;p
10:43<@Bjarni> <-- I think it looks more like a waterfall like this
10:43<@Bjarni>the white stuff doesn't really look like rocks
10:44<@peter1138>it's bits of iceberg stuck, maybe
10:44<boekabart>Sorry, I'm not a pixel artist myself... I'm depending on other people to do that I'm afraid
10:44<@Bjarni><peter1138> Bjarni, so boats can't go up it ;p <-- I kind of figured that out when the rocks were mentioned
10:45<Eddi|zuHause2>how would rivers in the desert look like?
10:45<boekabart>Actually I didn't test that with this latest version... The waterfall tiles are type Clear Water now (as opposed to Shore) so they might actually.
10:45<boekabart>Eddi|zuHause2: Try it. Everything's right there
10:45<Eddi|zuHause2>i don't feel like compiling today
10:46<boekabart>i just added a win32 binary
10:46<@Bjarni>a computer set up to do some real work can't use a win32 binary :p
10:48<boekabart>Actually leppka posted better rocks already, but not as a grf.
10:48<boekabart>and I don't know how to grfify pngs (mostly because they are 24bpp)
10:51<@Bjarni>the easy way is to do nothing
10:51<@Bjarni>and then hope that the 32 bit branch will be finished before you are finished
10:51<@Bjarni>converting 24 bit to 32 is no problem
10:51<boekabart>well same problem: you lose the animation
10:51<boekabart>Bjarni: I was actually hoping to get involved in te 32bpp branch
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10:52<@Bjarni>if you can figure out how to code stuff like that, then I'm not the one to stop you from trying :)
10:52<Brianetta>w00t, my Filofax is in Glasgow
10:53<@Bjarni>wtf is a filofax?
10:53<Brianetta>Train nuts, is there a Royal Mail service from Glasgow through Newcastle tonight?
10:53<Brianetta>Bjarni: It's like a DayRunner, but British
10:53<@Bjarni>wtf is a DayRunner? :p
10:53<boekabart>Bjarni: stuff like 32bpp?
10:53<Brianetta>A six-ring loose-leaf paper based personal organiser
10:54<Touqen>What's that?>
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10:54<@Bjarni>that's the stuff you get from printers
10:55<@Bjarni>and if you need a blank one (I don't know why you would want that), you need to print a blank document :p
10:55<@Bjarni>that thing
10:55<bubersson>boekabart: Are you sure, that this win32 bin really includes your patch?
10:55<bubersson>Or how can I make the river?
10:55<bubersson>oh... see... thx
10:55<@Bjarni>maybe you should write that somewhere where people read it
10:56<boekabart>it's in the thread i'm sure
10:56<@Bjarni>like a comment in the code
10:56<boekabart>Hm I just remembered I have a 0.5.0 32bpp version with palette animation working
10:56<Brianetta>That's the one I've bought
10:56<Brianetta>in black
10:56<@Bjarni>nice one
10:57<boekabart>... it doesn't load tar files though, just data/32bpp/<spriteID>.png
10:57<@Bjarni>boekabart: cool. It's a start
10:57<boekabart>actually it's a dead end
10:57<boekabart>since it's on 0.5
10:57<boekabart>but I think the approach I took might please the devs
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10:57<@Bjarni>the 32 bit branch moved on and it isn't that bad anymore
10:58<boekabart>Bjarni: you missed the news i guess. It was stopped-ish
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11:02<hylje>32bpp also brings alpha channel!
11:02<boekabart>yep, 8 bits worth!
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11:04<@Bjarni>well yeah I missed that blog
11:04<boekabart>...although I'd suggest to use only 4 of them, and the other 4 for company colors.
11:04<@Bjarni>I was more concerned with meeting a deadline at uni
11:04<@Bjarni>man, I'm way too serious :p
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11:08<boekabart>Now I'm off to Prague; I'll talk to you guys and ladies again on sunday I think. Buh Bye!
11:08<@Bjarni>boekabart: do you feel like you are up to the task to look at the graphical stuff?
11:08<hylje>i rather have the rivers stuff first!
11:08<@Bjarni>they lack internet and IRC in Prague?
11:08<+glx>boekabart: you don't need to use the "w" in the grf name (all openttd grfs use windows palette)
11:09<boekabart>Bjarni: I intend to steer clear of them mostly yes
11:09<@Bjarni>hylje: I didn't say anything about the order of coding stuff
11:09<boekabart>glx: ok
11:09<boekabart>Bjarni: I want nothing more. But need the time. After I've finished moving to my new house I think I'll apply to join the dev team
11:10<boekabart>that'll be august/september ish. Until then I just try to make time as much as I can, but it isn't too much
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11:10<boekabart>bye now
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11:10<@Bjarni>have a nice journey
11:10<@Bjarni>too late
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13:38<skidd13>I worked a bit on my move orders patch. Can one of the dev's check it again? Thanks
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14:31<Wolf01>there's anybody who want to join a framework project? (something like GameMaker, but coded in c/c++ and fully compiled, not interpreted)
14:32<boekabart>Wolf01: What type of games?
14:32<Wolf01>3D opengl
14:33<Wolf01>maybe ogre or ode for phisics
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14:41<@Belugas>Dancing with wolves....
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15:09<@Belugas>skidd13, new patch looks clean, from code style point of view
15:13<skidd13>Any comments from the other dev's?
15:13<@Belugas>and a good job at rearranging the widgets arrays
15:13<Wolf01>the new orders window?
15:14<Wolf01>good patch ;)
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15:15<@Belugas>i wonder if "+ int sel = (y - 15) / 10;" could be un-magic-number'ed
15:15<skidd13>I'll think over a nice solution
15:16<@Belugas>and what's good : there is no patch...
15:16<skidd13>Another thing: there are three diffrent widgets. I thought over merging them.
15:16[~]Belugas goes back to work@work
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15:22<@Belugas>watch out, then... merging widget is sometimes good, but it had to be VERY carefully crafted
15:23<@Belugas>some bad experience...
15:23<+glx>skidd13: you didn't updated openttd.grf md5
15:24<Desolator>gfx, I can't seem to compile r9856, I'll try without skidd13's patch
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15:29<skidd13>glx: what switches do I've to use get this type of md5?
15:30<+glx>md5sum openttd.grf
15:30<Desolator>I can't seem to compile your patch
15:31<boekabart>(10:09:46 PM) Belugas: skidd13, new patch looks clean
15:31<Desolator>might be a bug in the nightly, if that fails too, I'll pont a build log
15:31<skidd13>It works at my pc.
15:31<+glx>Desolator: MSVC?
15:31<Desolator>Win XP Pro, latest Platorm SDK, Lastest DirectX SDK, MS VC++ 2005 Express
15:31<boekabart>9856 itself compiles fine with msvc, just did so
15:31<Desolator>misc.obj : error LNK2001: unresolved external symbol "unsigned char _saved_scrollpos_zoom" (?_saved_scrollpos_zoom@@3EA)
15:31<Desolator>..\objs\Win32\Release\\openttd.exe : fatal error LNK1120: 1 unresolved externals
15:32<Desolator>this screws the compilation, so no openttd.exe
15:32<boekabart>is there an added cpp file in the patch?
15:32<boekabart>if so, needs to be added to the openttd_vs80.vcproj
15:32<Desolator>this was the patch
15:32<Desolator>same with and without patch...
15:33<boekabart>smth you did wrong then, I compiled it a couple of hours ago with no probs
15:33<+glx>no problem for me with msvc
15:33<Desolator>though if i'm not mistaken, there was a new cpp adde in this revision
15:33<+glx>(for nightly)
15:33<Desolator>I'll revert and check
15:33<@Belugas>[16:29] <boekabart> (10:09:46 PM) Belugas: skidd13, new patch looks clean <--- not fair! I said it LOOKS clean. I'm at the office, i cannot compile it!
15:34<@Belugas>wel... i can...but... that's not the point
15:39<skidd13>about the magic numbers:
15:39<skidd13>int sel = (y - (w->widget[ORDER_WIDGET_ORDER_LIST].top + 1)) / 10;
15:39<skidd13>Thats not really nice
15:40<Desolator>is it just TortoiseSVN or there's no change between r9855 & r9856?
15:40<skidd13>I think a comment will do a better job.
15:41<+glx>r9856 is a backport
15:41<+glx>so no changes in trunk
15:41<boekabart>9855 is that change
15:41<@Belugas>could do, skidd13
15:41[~]Desolator opens MSVC++ Express and presses F7
15:42[~]Desolator waits
15:42<boekabart>Desolator: hope you chose debug mode
15:42<Desolator>btw why don't the versino numbers appear on custom builds?
15:42<boekabart>release takes a looong time code generating
15:43<@Belugas>that's because you're using MSVC, Desolator
15:43<@Belugas>as well as me, by the way ;)
15:43<Desolator>well, I never got problems with MSVC
15:44<Desolator>I guess M$ must brake something
15:44<+glx>use mingw + svn cli to get the rev string
15:44<hylje>they always do
15:44<Desolator>I can't get MinGW compile
15:45<Desolator>I get the "X has enconutered a problem and needs to close. We are sorry for this convenience" message
15:49<Desolator>O.o now it compiles with no error
15:50<+glx>ok stop now :)
15:50<Desolator>hmm, maybe MSVC doesn't like spaces in the paths anymore
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15:54<@Belugas>got to go
15:54<@Belugas>see you
15:54<@Belugas>and goon night'
15:55<skidd13>good night
15:56<skidd13>Fixed the md5 and updated the patch
15:57<Desolator>no...I now must cancel the compilation....
15:58<Desolator>of course, MSVC crashed....
15:58<skidd13>that's why I changed to linux
15:59<Desolator>sorry, I don't want to cancel my media player...
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16:02<Desolator>alright, I'll go to another server, I'll psot the binaries when they're done
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16:04<boekabart>skidd13: if you url the thread w/ patch, i can have a win32 bin up in a minute
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16:11<boekabart>it says, openttd file corrupt or missing
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16:11<skidd13>you'll need the attatched openttd.grf too
16:11<boekabart>i have it
16:11<boekabart>svn says: changed
16:11<skidd13>one moment
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16:13<skidd13>should work.
16:13<skidd13>md5sum at hand?
16:15<skidd13>md5sum of openttd.grf should be c9a8f601aaa95e097d35a9a53ec663a0
16:15<skidd13>md5sum openttd.grf
16:15<boekabart>it is
16:16<boekabart>says ottd
16:16<boekabart>but digest is different
16:17<boekabart>digest say d41d8c....
16:17<boekabart>sorry, but gotta go now
16:17<boekabart>i posted the zip
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16:28<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r9857 /trunk/src/oldloader.cpp: -Fix: loading of TTDP savegames with features that OTTD has.
16:33<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r9858 /branches/0.5/ (console_cmds.c oldloader.c):
16:33<CIA-1>OpenTTD: [0.5] -Backport from trunk (r9771, r9856):
16:33<CIA-1>OpenTTD: - Feature: Add password protected status to 'players' (network server) console command (r9771)
16:33<CIA-1>OpenTTD: - Fix: Loading some TTDP savegames caused an instant assertion on loading (r9857)
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16:34<Ammler>Does someone of you know BamBam? He made a Mini-MiniIN: (german)
16:35<Ammler>could it be, that his source can't be compiled in Linux?
16:35<Sacro|Laptop>not heard of him
16:36<Sacro|Laptop>Ammler: is source available?
16:36<Sleepie>well as I read the german forums from time to time I have seen it, but not tested
16:36<Ammler>If you change (and add) source with Visual C++, is it only for win then?
16:36<Sacro|Laptop>mmm, it looks alright
16:36<Sacro|Laptop>Ammler: nope
16:36<Sacro|Laptop>it should merge fine
16:37<Sleepie>if I remember it correctly he mentioned that he won't release the source, because it isn't compileable on linux yet :P
16:37<Sacro|Laptop>well tell him he has to
16:37<Sacro|Laptop>under the law
16:38<Sleepie>he will, but not yet
16:38<Sacro|Laptop>if he releases Windows binaries, he must also release the associated Windows source
16:38<Sacro|Laptop>regardless of linux
16:38<Sleepie>he'll do cleanup first
16:38<Sacro|Laptop>thats not the point, the source must still be available
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16:39<Sleepie>I totally agree with you at this point
16:39<Sacro|Laptop>linux compilation doesn't matter, cos he isn't releasing linux source
16:40<Sleepie>I'll just have a look at the thread at the german forums...
16:40<Sacro|Laptop>i'm looking at it
16:41<Sacro|Laptop>but my german is a tad rusty
16:41<Ammler>ask me, if you need translation for something....
16:41<Sleepie>me too ;)
16:41<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r9859 /branches/0.5/ (6 files in 4 dirs): [0.5] -Prepare 0.5 branch for release of 0.5.2-RC1.
16:42<skidd13>the guy is mad. thats no miniIN thats a MAXI-IN
16:42<@Rubidium>skidd13: it's still a mini-MiniIN
16:44<skidd13>I ment the huge ammount of patches
16:44<@Rubidium>the amount of patches in that build is small compared to MiniIN
16:45<skidd13>Then my memory play's tricks on me. :(
16:46<@Rubidium>there were about 50 patches in MiniIN
16:46<Sacro|Laptop>MiniIN had loads
16:47<@Rubidium>and the 10 or so BamBam has is nothing in comparison with that
16:49|-|peterbrett [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:49<Sleepie>he has also an tt-forums account 'BamBam' so just PM him for a request of the source
16:50<Wolf01>'night all
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16:50<skidd13>One question about the noai branch. Will the AI be able to coop in sigleplayer with a player?
16:51<@Rubidium>at this moment it can't
16:51<@Rubidium>however, it might be technically feasible
16:52<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r9860 /tags/0.5.2-RC1/ (6 files): -Release 0.5.2-RC1.
16:53<@Rubidium>michi_cc: release
16:54<skidd13>singleplayer cooped AI would bring auto updated bridges or auto train per station number in my mind
16:56<@Rubidium>auto train per station number?
16:56<skidd13>adapt the number of trains per shared order
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17:27<elmex>someone told me that double-45deg turns are good because it slows down trains so that more trains fit on a track
17:28<@Rubidium>that's technically correct
17:28<@Rubidium>in a traffic jam there are more cars per square meter than when everybody drive 100 km/h
17:29<Tefad>less potential though
17:29<Tefad>in jams
17:30<elmex>i would say more potential
17:30<Tefad>i'd rather have fewer faster trains
17:30<Tefad>more $ per load
17:30<elmex>two stations put trains on a mainline with double-45-turns
17:30<Tefad>with less infrastructure required
17:30<elmex>and at the next junction it jams up
17:31<elmex>(which has the same double-45-turns)
17:31<Tefad>there is a point at which faster trains cost more than they're worth
17:31<maddy>Brianetta, do you start your server again?
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17:35<@Rubidium>Brianetta: and when you (re)start your server, I think you should try 0.5.2-RC1 ;)
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17:38<elmex>i guess the advantage of slow networks is that it's easier to build
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17:39<Sleepie>Sacro: I have read through BamBam's 'miniIN' thread at the german forums
17:39<Sacro>Sleepie: oh?
17:39<Sleepie>there is no source downloadable yet
17:40<Brianetta>Rubidium: I'll update to 0.5.2 when it's out
17:40<Brianetta>I'm nasty like that
17:40<Sleepie>but he is looking for someone who will provide linux support
17:42<Brianetta>dbg: [YAPFt]! 50- 49 us - 4 rounds - 0 open - 3 closed - CHR 0.0% - c-1(sc-1, ts0, o0) --
17:42<Brianetta>dbg: [YAPFr]- 10- 41 us - 9 rounds - 8 open - 8 closed - CHR 0.0% - c771(sc0, ts0, o0) --
17:42<Brianetta>dbg: fixing lru 17265, inuse=1076460
17:42<Brianetta>Server has exited
17:42[~]Brianetta shrugs
17:42<+michi_cc>Rubidium: on the way
17:42<Sleepie>meaning someone who maintains the sources for linux compatibility
17:43<@Rubidium>Brianetta: 0.5.1 seems to crash when somebody destroys a bridge with a vehicle on the ramp
17:44<Brianetta>Well, next crash
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17:50<+michi_cc>Rubidium, here you go: b8953ae62383b1fe8dca392b921964fd
17:53<@Rubidium>Thanks michi_cc
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19:46|-|[] changed the topic of #openttd: 5.2-RC1 | Website: * (DevBlog: blog, Translator: translator2, Gameservers: servers, Nightly-builds: nightly, WIKI: wiki, SVN mailinglist: maillist, Dev-docs: docs, Bug-reports: bugs) | #openttd.notice for FS + SVN notices
19:46|-|[] changed the topic of #openttd: 0.5.2-RC1 | Website: * (DevBlog: blog, Translator: translator2, Gameservers: servers, Nightly-builds: nightly, WIKI: wiki, SVN mailinglist: maillist, Dev-docs: docs, Bug-reports: bugs) | #openttd.notice for FS + SVN notices
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19:53<mikegrb>the tunnels under water and waterfalls stuffs looks awesome
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20:07<Sacro>you lose a sense of depth
20:09[~]Belugas goes deep in whatever he was doing
20:10<Tefad>how is it prevented from some idiot planting a water tile at land on sealevel?
20:10<Tefad>ah in topic.
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---Logclosed Thu May 17 00:00:00 2007