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#openttd IRC Logs for 2007-05-31

---Logopened Thu May 31 00:00:21 2007
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02:21<CIA-1>OpenTTD: peter1138 * r9995 /trunk/src/genworld.cpp: -Fix (r9962): Don't scroll the map at the start of a new game
02:22<wboekabart>morning peter1138 ;)
02:22<wboekabart>good way to start the day
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02:34<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r9996 /trunk/src/ (road_cmd.cpp station_cmd.cpp): -Fix: be more strict when building/upgrading roads and/or road stops.
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02:36<boekabart>gettin' reaaaally close
02:36<@Rubidium>0.6 isn't really that close
02:37<valhallasw>I wonder what kind of function you could fit between revision and full version *grin*
02:38<Vikthor>Hi boekabart. I told Marek about your interest in aging tracks, did he contact you?
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02:42<boekabart>Vikthor: Yes he did!
02:42<boekabart>but also Ben_K is trying something out
02:43<boekabart>I hope to find some time today or tomorrow to try some coding
02:44<Vikthor>Wonderfull, I am looking forward to what will come out of this ;)
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04:54<Luukland>Frostregen__ you are welcome :)
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06:34<lolman>boekabart, old ;)
06:34<Sionide>sorry boekabart ;)
06:35<Sionide>i said day before yest, that i was gonna translate ottd into lolcode :p
06:35<boekabart>IZ TRAIN EMPTY NOWAI!
06:36<@Bjarni>maybe toyland could do with a lolcode addon
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07:16<kaan>:D just read wtf today and i stumbled over this
07:17<hylje>silly netherlanders
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07:36<eekee>script languages... What if ottd had embedded script interpreters, but a different language for each region?
07:36<eekee>lolcode for toyland
07:36<eekee>Java for tropical (more than one reason...)
07:37<Kjetil>brainfuck for toyland
07:37<eekee>I dunno whether Python should be for temperate because it was named after Mony Python - British; or Northern because it was (iirc) designed originally by a scandinavian
07:37<eekee>Kjetil: yeah :D
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07:39<Maedhros>ye gods
07:39<Maedhros>i'd forgotten how slow the very early dbsetxl engines are...
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07:42[~]eekee googles dbsetxl -- "ooh, propper hoppers"
07:42<Maedhros>yeah, it's nice :)
07:42<Maedhros>just very very slow to begin with ;)
07:43<@peter1138>my poor BR92s
07:44<@peter1138>although, the BR75s are out nwo
07:44<eekee>same speed as the... um... little 060 from the temperate region, right? I use them all through my game when I can, because they can turn a profit on lines so short that nothing else can, lol
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07:45<@peter1138>similar speed
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07:47<eekee>I usually play with "vehicles never expire" on, and just use whatever engine seems appropriate for each route, anyone else here play like that?
07:48[~]boekabart still didn't find out how to easily replace an old engine by a more modern replacement
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07:49<eekee>boekabart: scrap the engine (just the engine) & build the new one. It will come up with the same number & orders
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07:50<eekee>(Goes all the way back to TTD or TTO, that ^^)
07:50<boekabart>eekee: yeah that's not what I call easy... if you have 80 trains slowly expiring one by one
07:51<eekee>ohhhh ah
07:51<eekee>I think there's something in the global train list...
07:51<eekee>I also think I saw an upgrade button somewhere in the debot window, but not sure
07:51<boekabart>i hear there is something, never really searched.
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07:58<iPandaMojo>Yeah, there is a mass replace interface
07:59<iPandaMojo>It'll send them to depot automatically for you and everything
08:00<iPandaMojo>At the top UI bar, there's a train icon --- clicking it brings up a list of your traints
08:01<boekabart>iPandaMojo: and then?
08:01<iPandaMojo>Select "replace vehicles" from the dropdown next to the "Manage list" button to bring up the replace UI.
08:01<iPandaMojo>(e.g. the little down arrow)
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08:01<boekabart>thanks, I'll try that when next opportunity. I've been too lazy to look for it I guess.
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08:36<boekabart>Grass growing on unused tracks:
08:36<Kjetil>Cool :P
08:38<hylje>now if we could have graceful borderpieces
08:38<hylje>it would be most perfect
08:39<boekabart>I guess if the sprites were a bit bigger
08:39<boekabart>extending into the next/previous graciously... that would work, right?
08:40<hylje>it could and should start right away but a bushy border would be nice looking
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09:16<CIA-1>OpenTTD: miham * r9997 /trunk/src/lang/ (american.txt french.txt):
09:16<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update: WebTranslator2 update to 2007-05-31 16:16:13
09:16<CIA-1>OpenTTD: american - 30 fixed by WhiteRabbit (30)
09:16<CIA-1>OpenTTD: french - 1 changed by glx (1)
09:17<Kjetil>OoO r10000 soon
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09:29<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r9998 /trunk/src/fios.cpp: -Fix (r9990): possible null pointer dereferences on MorphOS.
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09:54<clb>could someone give me a hand? I built openttd on winxp/vs80 successfully but I suppose I'm missing something since when I try to run the game using my .exe, it complains about not being able to load any .grf -files. any ideas?
09:54<Touqen>Did you put the .grf files in the right location?
09:55<clb>I tried copying the .exe from the Release folder to the same directory where the openttd.exe resides in the latest release,
09:56<clb>so the .grf's were in .\data\ relative to the exe, and I also tried putting the .grf's in the same directory as the exe, but no luck
09:56<Touqen>And your configuration file is correct?
09:56<clb>it just starts with 'Your 'openttd.grf' file is corrupted or missing!'
09:57<Touqen>clb: How are you starting it?
09:57<clb>I have openttd.cfg file in the same directory as the exe, and if I run the original openttd.exe from the 0.5.2 release, it starts fine
09:57<clb>directly from explorer, i.e. not in VS80
09:58<Touqen>When you downloaded the sources from SVN, it should have included all that stuff in the directories that it gets built into and should be using that version of the files, not the ones from the lastest stable.
09:59<clb>ah ok, so it seeks differently relative to the .exe with the latest stable?
09:59<@peter1138>the grfs in trunk are different from those in 0.5.2
10:00<clb>ah ok, I'll try the svn data files out and see how it goes
10:00<Touqen>clb: That's why nightlies don't include "just" the binary, but they include other stuff too.
10:02<clb>thanks! now it runs fine
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10:11<clb>ok now, then doing the same feat in linux.. I first run ./configure which goes through fine, then make, which also succeeds, and finally when I run the binary, it just returns to prompt immediately without any warning whatsoever.
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10:13<Iron>why is that that i have a coal mine which i transport coal from but i can only achieve that 69% of coal is transported, while i run 3 trains on the line, 1 train always waiting at the station to load up (they're set up to full load)
10:14<Iron>and my rating on the station is high, 82%
10:14<Iron>oh damn, wait, nevermind
10:15[~]Iron slaps forehead
10:15<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r9999 /trunk/ (12 files in 5 dirs): -Feature: make it possible to disallow busses and lorries to go a specific way on straight pieces of road.
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10:17<izhirahider>Who's the milestoner? :)
10:18<hylje>rubi most likely
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10:22<clb>is there a way to build the binary in linux with some verbose/debug output so I could track why it would be failing?
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10:27<skidd13>Is there a way to convert a SpriteID to Sprite?
10:28<Rubidium>GetSprite(..) ?
10:28<Rubidium>SpriteID is something completely different than a Sprite
10:28<Wolf01>uhm, one way roads?
10:30<Wolf01>about r10k, I bet on Belugas for newindustries :D
10:30<skidd13>GetSprite is what I was looking for. Thanks.
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10:31<@peter1138>$ svn up
10:31<@peter1138>At revision 10000.
10:31<lolman>Just another rev then?
10:32<Touqen>9999 one way roads?
10:32<boekabart>well prep for it i think
10:32<Wolf01>you might be so evil to make a void revision for 10k
10:32<boekabart>Rubidium did :)
10:32<Rubidium>what? lies!
10:33<Rubidium>svn log -r HEAD:10000 svn://
10:33<boekabart>someone or something did
10:33<boekabart>yeah, empty
10:33<boekabart>not even a date
10:34<clb>well I got the dedicated server running, but other than that, it won't do anything in client mode at all.
10:35<@Belugas>maybe this will please you for the "loss" of 10k :
10:36<Wolf01>i'm so sad i might be going home when r10k happens :(
10:36<boekabart>Wolf01: IT HAS HAPPENED
10:36<boekabart>it's an empty void commit by no-one
10:36<boekabart>someone had that all planned
10:36<boekabart>or it's an SVN feature
10:36<lolman>I bet it was Rubidium
10:36<Wolf01>i don't see it in cia
10:37<boekabart>heh, the betting starts again
10:37<boekabart>Wolf01: (5:33:11 PM) Rubidium: svn log -r HEAD:10000 svn://
10:37<lolman>r10000 | (no author) | (no date) | 1 line
10:37<Wolf01>that's a fake ;)
10:38<@peter1138>Belugas: COMMIT!
10:38<@peter1138>wait, i'm not Born_Acorn...
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10:40<@Belugas>but close ;)
10:41<CIA-1>OpenTTD: belugas * r10001 /trunk/src/ (industry.h newgrf.cpp table/build_industry.h): -Codechange: Add support for removing dynamically allocated newgrf data
10:41<nairan>like someone worte they left it out
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10:41<Wolf01>how evil :D
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10:43<Wolf01>i must keep silence next time :P
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10:58<UndernotBuilder>!openttd commit 10000
10:58<_42_>Commit by rubidium :: r10000 (none) (2007-05-31 15:16:44 UTC)
10:58<UndernotBuilder>!openttd commit 10001
10:58<_42_>Commit by belugas :: r10001 /trunk/src/ (industry.h newgrf.cpp table/build_industry.h) (2007-05-31 15:40:36 UTC)
10:58<_42_>-Codechange: Add support for removing dynamically allocated newgrf data
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10:59<UndernotBuilder>Rubidium fooled all :D
10:59<UndernotBuilder>oh, and I didn't know that was possible to commit a empty revision
10:59<skidd13>check 9999 ;)
10:59<UndernotBuilder>I know
10:59<boekabart>Rubidium: so it WAS you after all
11:00[~]Wolf01 goes home
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11:00<UndernotBuilder>so... mr. X wins
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11:00<@Belugas>UndernotBuilder : it was not en ampty revision :) it has stuff, believe me.
11:01<Ailure>oh heh
11:01<Ailure>most of the revisions in a school project i'm in
11:01<Ailure>is like that
11:01<Ailure>since we're too lazy commenting what we did
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11:02<UndernotBuilder>so the nearest guess was the mr.x one:
11:02<UndernotBuilder>Or just skip 10k and go from r9999 just to r10001.
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11:15<ledow>Just popped in to say... Thanks Rubidium for the one-way roads. :-)
11:16<Maedhros>!openttd ports
11:16<Maedhros>!openttd port
11:16<_42_>Maedhros: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication and UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advsertise) communication (outbound)
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11:27<Sacro>why can't one way roads have junctions?
11:27<hylje>one-way roads?!
11:27<Sacro>and why can't you convert a 1 way to 2 way automatically?
11:28<Wolf01>because you must set the flag in the pieces after and before the junction
11:28<Wolf01>as in ttdpatch
11:28<Sacro>Wolf01: oh?
11:28<boekabart>like rails, you set the sign somewhere on the road
11:28<boekabart>around the crossings or in the middle
11:28<Rubidium>ttdpatch pretends to support it on junctions, but it doesn't work on junctions
11:29<Rubidium>*and* making it work properly on junctions would require 4 times as much bits
11:29<Wolf01>and i like it as it is
11:29<Sacro>though it'd be better if there was an "autoconvert to 2 way if needed" switch
11:30<hylje>its not like road junctions use a load of bits?
11:30<Wolf01>and now i must find a way to get the main title scroll bugfree
11:30<Rubidium>hylje: are you really sure about that?
11:31<Sacro>when you drag over a one way street with one way the other way, bad things happen
11:32<@peter1138>"Can't build road here..."
11:32<Sacro>holding ctrl shouldn't toggle the status
11:32<@peter1138>should be "Can't make road one-way here..." or something
11:32<Sacro>ctrl should be always one way
11:33<Rubidium>Sacro: and how to make a unaccessible road and/or remove onewayness?
11:33<Sacro>Rubidium: R
11:33<Sacro>shouldn't be allowed
11:33<Sacro>i keep overlaying roads and losing the one-way-ness
11:33<Sacro>its a pain
11:34<boekabart>it should works the same as railway signals imho, interface wise
11:35<Sacro>boekabart: yes
11:35<Sacro>err... maybe
11:36<Wolf01>found a bug
11:36<Sacro>and depots should convert the road peice in front
11:36<Sacro>and then join
11:36<Wolf01>and this time in trunk
11:37<Wolf01>to replicate it: build a road depot in the middle of nothing, purchase a vehicle, start the vehicle
11:37<Wolf01>asserts something on road type
11:39<Wolf01>GetRoadTileType(t) == ROAD_TILE_NORMAL
11:40<Wolf01>can i get a medal?
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11:42<Sacro>road_map.h:163: DisallowedRoadDirections GetDisallowedRoadDirections(TileIndex): Assertion `GetRoadTileType(t) == ROAD_TILE_NORMAL' failed.
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11:47<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r10002 /trunk/src/roadveh_cmd.cpp: -Fix (r9999): don't try to get the disallowed directions from a road depot...
11:47<boekabart>!commit 10002
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11:48<Rubidium>boekabart: just be patient
11:50<Wolf01>peter1138, somebody recalled to my mind that i have some improvements for the transparent options, do you want some of them in separate patches?
11:53[~]boekabart had too much coffee today
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11:56<Progman>placing a one-way road vertical to an existing road build a junction, this should be rejected imo
12:00<Progman>wait a moment, slicing the screenshots...
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12:03<Progman> <- before the first ctrl-click
12:04<Progman> <- after the first ctrl-click
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12:05<Progman> <- expected error message at second ctrl-click
12:05<Progman>so, imo it shouldn't build a junction if you try to build a one-way road vertical to an existing road
12:05<Noldo>oneway roads?
12:06<Progman>Noldo: green arrows on the 3. image
12:07<boekabart>Are fast vehicles supposed to overtake slow ones?
12:07<boekabart>ah they do :)
12:07<hylje>now we need crazy road pathfinder caching
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12:07<hylje>so we could have crazy amounts of rvs
12:07<boekabart>but slow down a lot while passing
12:09<Progman>ouu, overtake can be dangerous, if the miss a drive (if you have high-ways) ;)
12:09<boekabart>i just built a highway
12:10<boekabart>and the fast busses do overtake the 56 kmh lorries
12:10<boekabart>but slow down to 50 first
12:10<boekabart>like women passing on a highway
12:10<hylje>how do you pass someone at -6km/h speed difference
12:10<boekabart>FIRST slow down
12:10<boekabart>then accelerate and overtake
12:10<Noldo>boekabart: tell them they don't have to
12:10<boekabart>Noldo: easier sais than done :)
12:11<Progman>but it looks cool anyway
12:11<boekabart>i think RVs accelerate slower than trains in ottd :(
12:11<hylje>rvs have less HP
12:11<hylje>in general
12:12<boekabart>hylje: also less tonnes
12:12<boekabart>all RVs accelerate faster than trains
12:12<boekabart>in real life
12:12<hylje>irl trains are underpowered :-)
12:12<boekabart>no, rv's are overpowered
12:12<boekabart>who needs to hit 60mph in 5 secs?
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12:15<Wolf01>peter1138, are you there?
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12:17<Progman>Rubidium: you get what I mean?
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12:18<Rubidium>yes, now I do... but I wonder whether it is really wanted because adding this warning would mean you cannot make one big one way road through (other) crossing roads
12:21<Progman>ou, you can hold and drag
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12:22<hylje>when 1way roads are ready
12:22<hylje>someone patch town AI to upgrade "mainline" streets to 2 tile
12:22<boekabart>hold/drag: you can, but it cancels the first one if you do it like on rails
12:23<Rubidium>boekabart: you do not make any sense
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12:24<hylje>welcome to the club it seems
12:24<Progman>one-way doesn't work for trams, do it?
12:25<boekabart>Rubidium: Here goes. I build a 'one way' arrow, ok.
12:25<Sacro>yeah... just route them round in a circle
12:25<Sacro>they can't turn around on their own can they?
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12:25<boekabart>then with ctrl, I drag from there along the road
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12:26<boekabart>the whole drag'area becomes oneway, but the initial tile loses its arrow
12:26<Rubidium>oh... that
12:26<Rubidium>that's because these work a little different
12:27<boekabart>Rubidium: to be honest... I think I'd be easier for most users if the UI for oneway would work more like the signal ui
12:27<Rubidium>you 'toggle' the one way status
12:27<boekabart>the clicking on the right side of the road with the right direction just made the lack of autoroad worse imho
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12:27<boekabart>a rotate, left, right, block, free would be user-friendlier I think?
12:28<boekabart>with a separate button like the signal button
12:30<boekabart>i like the feature though, just built a cloverleaf for cars
12:30<boekabart>to bad cars don't seem to pass on bridges
12:32<boekabart>Rubidium: the worst is the 'blocked road' sign, since it IS linked to a direction but you cannot see it
12:32<Rubidium>boekabart: if you can get proper graphics for both autoroad and the signal stuff (maybe even some roadside stop boards?)
12:32<Progman> \o/
12:32<Rubidium>boekabart: why can't you see the blocked road sign?
12:32<Rubidium>aren't those arrows clear enough?
12:33<boekabart>i see it, but not the direction (NW or SE) it's linked to
12:33<boekabart>i click SE, then middle, i have a block
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12:33<boekabart>but cannot change it to NW from there, only back to SW
12:33<Rubidium>you can; just ctrl click on the sw part
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12:34<boekabart>no, it changes back to SW
12:34<Rubidium>then you (probably) fail in clicking properly, because it works for me
12:35<Progman>works for me too
12:36<Progman>but is a little bit confusing as you click on SW on a blocked tile and the NE arrow appears (as logical as you 'remove' the SW-one-way-info)
12:36<boekabart>NOW i get it
12:36<boekabart>click on the place where you DONT want it
12:36<Rubidium>boekabart: wrong
12:37<Rubidium>you click on the place where you want to toggle the oneway-status of
12:37<Sacro>its a toggle
12:37<Rubidium>and the red thing means that both are "on"
12:37<Sacro>which isn't very intuitive
12:37<boekabart>NOW i get it!!
12:37<Sacro>boekabart: yes... but it takes some headscratching
12:37<boekabart>sure does!
12:38<boekabart>basically you place a "don't enter here" sign
12:38<Sacro>"both-one-way road"
12:38<Sacro>err... thats 2 way then
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12:38<Sacro>should be a both-no-way
12:38<Sacro>or a dead end
12:38<boekabart>then the gfx should be smth red, not green :)
12:38<Progman>it is
12:38<boekabart>i mean the other one :)
12:39<boekabart>Rubidium: I guess there is no place for 1-way signs on bridge heads, is there?
12:40<Rubidium>technically there is place
12:41<Rubidium>but you say CTRL click cycling is "easier" to understand?
12:41<boekabart>actually, placing them like rail signals
12:41<Rubidium>when you do it like signals and you "place" these "one way signs" on the road, you won't see them as the normal signals are "allow both dirs"
12:41<boekabart>i see the button icon already: the one way sign :)
12:42<Rubidium>boekabart: that's not a button
12:42<boekabart>we'll make it
12:42<boekabart>(or have it made)
12:42<boekabart>i mean: as in 'the universal one-way sign', the red O with the white -
12:43<boekabart>Rubidium: yes, so the 4 'signal' states you cycle through are left, right, none, open
12:43<boekabart>open beiing without gfx
12:43<Rubidium>but what should the "default" (first) state be?
12:43<boekabart>if you want me to, i can have a go at it
12:43<boekabart>default = open
12:43<boekabart>like now
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12:43<boekabart>ah, the 'next'?
12:44<boekabart>same as with rails
12:44<boekabart>(open) -> north, south, closed -> open
12:44<boekabart>svn up
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12:44<Rubidium>boekabart: you can try to do it, but do it properly
12:45<Sacro>nooo, just disable the toggle mode
12:46<Sacro>i like up dragging and down dragging
12:46<Sacro>but make it OR 1 with ctrl
12:46<Sacro>and AND 0 without
12:46<Sacro>rather than XOR
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12:46<boekabart>Sacro: but why drag, you need the sign only once on the road
12:47<Sacro>boekabart: you have to drag for the road anyway
12:47<boekabart>Sacro: I don't see a good reason why to do it different than for rail
12:48<boekabart>just out of symmetry
12:48<Sacro>boekabart: alright...
12:49<Sacro>just get rid of the damn toggle
12:49<Sacro>its a pain
12:49<TrueBrain>:) Gna!
12:51<Progman>the toggle is fine
12:52<Progman>as you use half-tiles for road-builds
12:52<Progman>so these fits the road-build style
12:52<Progman> btw. ;)
12:53<Sacro>we can do pretty road junctions now
12:54<boekabart>sacro: well there is a small problem still:
12:55<TrueBrain>boekabart: how is that a problem?
12:55<boekabart>so you need to make em a bit bigger, at least 1 tile between the small and big loop with a sign, like Progman has.
12:55<Sacro>cos you can't have one way over a junction
12:55<boekabart>TrueBrain: Try doing that on a real freeway.
12:55<Sacro>or one way on bridges :o
12:55<TrueBrain>good you never saw me drive :)
12:56<Sacro>TrueBrain: at least you save petrol
12:56<TrueBrain>my point ;)
12:56<boekabart>a solution is to remove the inner loops, and make the outer ones 2 way
12:56<TrueBrain>so one-way doesn't work on bridges? :)
12:56<boekabart>you can't pass on those outer loops in real life anyway
12:56<boekabart>TrueBrain: you can't place the signs
12:56<Sacro>boekabart: you can :p
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12:56<boekabart>Sacro: YOU can :)
12:56<TrueBrain>"willen is kunnen"
12:57<Sacro>hylje: you alright there?
12:57<Sacro>methinks he may have figured out r9999
12:57<TrueBrain>I like how Rubidium describe things :)
12:57<boekabart>1 thing is sure: the one way roads is going to cause a whole lot of traffic on the forums I think
12:57<Sacro>TrueBrain: it made me think for a second
12:57<Sacro>boekabart: but at least the traffic is now controllable
12:58<Sacro>can you have 2 vehicles side by side in a stop yet?
12:58<boekabart>Sacro: I'm very much FOR one way roads, that's not the thing
12:58<Sionide>if you start putting one way rounds into towns, you can muck up the AI's buses
12:58<boekabart>Sionide: You need to own the roads
12:58[~]Sionide hasn't played with it yet
12:58[~]Sacro builds a level crossing and claims the road
12:58<Sacro>actually, that got fixed D:
12:58<Sacro>i liked that trick in tto
12:58<boekabart>Sacro: who didn't
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12:59<boekabart>there is the same thing with trams now :)
12:59<Progman>trams follow the same mechanic?
13:00<Progman>(don't have one atm.)
13:00<Rubidium>boekabart: what are you talking about?
13:01<scia>:O openttd: /home/scia/openttd/trunk/src/road_map.h:22: RoadTileType GetRoadTileType(TileIndex): Assertion `IsTileType(t, MP_STREET)' failed.
13:01<scia>Aborted (core dumped)
13:02<hylje>heh trams can collide with RVs without problems
13:03<boekabart>doh: on a one way signed road, cannot make a tram cross/juntion/curve
13:03<hylje>tramway is road
13:03<Rubidium>boekabart: that sounds like an issue
13:03<Rubidium>scia: and?
13:03<boekabart>Rubidium: sorry: tramways can cross, but not junction
13:03<scia>I build a bridge
13:04<boekabart>Rubidium: and can't turn
13:04<scia>and sent a vehicle over it
13:04<scia>the bridge is not connected to a road on the other side so it should reverse
13:04<scia>that is how it occurre
13:05<boekabart>Rubidium: but: if I have a tram turning into a straight road, and want to add a one way sign to it, i can
13:06<Rubidium>boekabart: as I said, that's a "problem"; tram tracks shouldn't care about onewayness
13:06<boekabart>same for a tram junction on straight road
13:06<boekabart>so, bug is in tramway building code, too many checks?
13:06<Rubidium>well, rather not enough checks ;)
13:08<boekabart>Anyway, trams on a one way street aren't a good idea since they will drive the wrong way :)
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13:12<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r10003 /trunk/src/roadveh_cmd.cpp: -Fix (r9999): crash when vehicle had to turn on a bridge.
13:12<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r10004 /trunk/src/road_cmd.cpp: -Fix: trams can always intersect/have junctions on one way roads (because they only work for busses and lorries).
13:13<boekabart>Rubidium: you fast one you
13:14<scia>thanks Rubidium :)
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13:24<Zr40>Rubidium: could you get FS#104 committed? :)
13:26<@peter1138>only if it's rewritten
13:26<Zr40>in what way?
13:28<Noldo>oh my, autosaving 2k*2k map takes some time
13:29<Thomas[NL]>I get the same error scia had :
13:29<Thomas[NL]>openttd: /home/thomas/openttd/src/road_map.h:22: RoadTileType GetRoadTileType(TileIndex): Assertion `IsTileType(t, MP_STREET)' failed.
13:29<Thomas[NL]>Aborted (core dumped)
13:31<Thomas[NL]>I made a nice high-road clover-leaf and sended some vehicles over it
13:32<Unaimed>Is there a simple way to display a window ingame? (from the code, something like alert("text");)
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13:34<Noldo>Unaimed: there must be
13:35<Unaimed>If that doesn't work, how do you print a line to the console?
13:37<Maedhros>Noldo: the fact that it's possible doesn't mean it must be easy ;)
13:41<Unaimed>IConsolePrint prints to the console
13:43<Noldo>I'm disapointed, None Industries doesn't stop them from being founded
13:43<Zr40>that only applies to map generation
13:43<Zr40>you could want an empty map, so that you can place industries yourself
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13:45<Noldo>but you could also want none
13:45<Zr40>then don't create them :)
13:46<Noldo>yes, but random founding of new ones wasn't wat I wanted
13:46<Noldo>grrr 'wat'
13:47<boekabart>Noldo: You want the 'founding industries during game-time' function to take the # of industries settings into account?
13:47<boekabart>.. sounds fair enough
13:47<@Belugas>Noldo, there is no patch settings to stop the industries to be funded while ingame
13:47<hylje>Noldo: wat
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13:48<@Belugas>the only way for yu to do it is wait until newindustries is done and create your own grf that disable them all
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13:50<Noldo>But there are many nice new features added since I played last time
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14:00<Noldo>What do the vehicle groups do?
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14:02<Wolf01>groups the vehicles for easy handle them
14:03<Noldo>what does that button near ceterline do?
14:03<Maedhros>right click on it
14:05<Zr40>peter1138: what needs to be rewritten?
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14:14<CIA-1>OpenTTD: belugas * r10005 /trunk/src/ (5 files): -Codechange: Merge two flags (2cc and newhouses) indicating some newgrf features have been loaded, and introduce the newindustry one.
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14:20<Wolf01>boekabart, i really like your patches :D
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14:49<UndernotBuilder>a question: the .net framework installer is requesting me microsoft installer 3.0 do anyone know what is the name of the installer of the last one so I search it?
14:49<Wolf01>windows update
14:50<UndernotBuilder>no, that downloads with it WGA and that will catch me
14:50<Wolf01>autopatcher xp
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14:50<Sionide>it's that rubbish program that lets you install from .msi files
14:50|-|Osai [] has joined #openttd
14:50<UndernotBuilder>but I can install .msi files :S
14:50<graeme>just go to microsoft website and search for installer, you can download it
14:51<Sionide>i don't know anything about windows
14:51<Wolf01>yes if you have the required framework version
14:52<UndernotBuilder>because I remember some time ago being able to install .net fw but now don't
14:52<UndernotBuilder>but in that moment I have upgraded to sp2
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14:53<Wolf01>then that installer required the framework 1.0, maybe now it requires the 2.0 and is available the 3.0 to install
14:54<Wolf01>just download autopatcher xp and you shouldn't have problems of wga
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14:55<graeme> thats what you want
14:56<+glx>needs wga ;)
14:56<graeme>i did it a few weeks ago
14:56<+glx>Validation Required
14:56<graeme>ahh, og yeah. where did i get it from then?
14:56<graeme>its available somewhere
14:57<Wolf01> <-
14:58<graeme>or a direct link to the file Knew it was about
14:59<graeme>google is your freind
14:59<kaan>you could use this too:
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15:09[~]dihedral appreciates the work all the devs do...
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15:19<UndernotBuilder>whats the status of high water?
15:21<kaan>i think the tide is about to turn :P
15:22<UndernotBuilder>OH NOES
15:22[~]Touqen throws kaan and his puns in the garbage.
15:22<kaan>ok, il ladmit that was bad
15:23<kaan>ok then, ill admit that it was really bad
15:23<UndernotBuilder>If jasperthecat1 looks into the revision 10000 topic and looks into the new feature, he will go berserker!
15:23<@Bjarni>could be worse
15:23<@Bjarni>however right now I can't think of anything worse though :p
15:23<kaan>you are right, i cant think of anything worse
15:25<kaan>so now we have established that i hold the record for the wors humor here :)
15:26<Sacro>UndernotBuilder: he's found IRC
15:26<UndernotBuilder>OH NOES
15:26<Sacro>yeah, he has been in #tycoon on quakenet
15:26<@peter1138>oh highways, lol
15:26<UndernotBuilder>one time I did a joke and named myself jasperthecat1
15:27<UndernotBuilder>but better not make it remember to Rubidium :)
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15:35<TrueBrain> <- who has the guts? :)
15:35<Sacro>TrueBrain: there's no way i can get a passport in 6 days :p
15:36<TrueBrain>:) Poor you ;)
15:36<Rubidium>Sacro: go to the airport and tell that you lost it and need it badly
15:36<Sacro>need what? to go to the netherlands?
15:36<Rubidium>that passport ofcourse
15:37<Sionide>go to the passport office, queue up and get one done on the day...
15:37<Sionide>course you can get one in 6 days... easy.
15:40<Frostregen__>hmm, would be 461km
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15:41<Frostregen>but...a reason to go to netherlands, besides dope ;)
15:42<@peter1138>why do you need a passport to travel within europe these days?
15:42<@peter1138>oh yes, terrorism...
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15:43<Zr40>peter1138: what would you need to travel in the USA?
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15:44<@peter1138>a gun
15:48<Sacro>some pasties
15:49<ln->flights about 700 euros on this short notice, ... i think that's a bit much.
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15:50<ln->or even below 400 on another company, but still a bit expensiveish.
15:51<Sacro>i think i can get the ferry from Hull to somewhere
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16:18<Sacro>hmm £108 for a same day passport
16:20<Touqen>Heh. Same day passports. It takes weeks to get a passport in the US.
16:20[~]orudge isn't sure he quite wants to go on a drive in foreignland just yet, though
16:21<CIA-1>OpenTTD: glx * r10006 /trunk/ (9 files in 4 dirs): -Fix (FS#362): allow different signal types on one tile
16:21<Sacro>orudge: you'd go via hull?
16:21<Sacro>glx: orly? what types?
16:22<@orudge>Sacro: Google would send me via Dover
16:22[~]Rubidium waits for glx' image
16:22<Sacro>orudge: strange. i'd go down to Hull, then over to Rotterdam
16:22<Sacro>or maybe via newcaslte
16:22<@orudge>Google evidently doesn't know the Hull route
16:22<@orudge>but, hm
16:23[~]orudge tries doing it manually
16:23<@orudge>it still sends me via England
16:24<Sacro>that seems a longer route
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16:25<@orudge>£271 return with a car
16:25<@orudge>with this one web site
16:25<@orudge>from Hull to Rotterdam
16:25<@orudge>£246 without a car
16:25[~]orudge thinks not, somehow
16:25<@orudge>driving would be hypothetically possible, but at such short notice, and without any experience driving on the right
16:25<@orudge>I think I might not
16:26<@orudge>The Dutchies should come to us ;0
16:26<@Bjarni> <orudge> ... without any experience driving on the right <-- that's actually a minor issue if you are mentally prepared for it
16:26<Sacro>orudge: £112 return
16:26<@orudge>I imagine it won't be too bad
16:26<@Bjarni>I mean I wouldn't mind driving in the left side
16:27<@orudge>I've been "driven" on the right, in the US and Canada
16:27<@orudge>and I'm sure it wouldn't be too bad
16:27<@orudge>just a bit unnerving at first I guess
16:27<@Bjarni>just remember that you have to go the other way around the roundabouts ;)
16:28<@Bjarni>that's actually an issue
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16:29<@Bjarni>people are prepared to drive in the other side (compared to what they are used to), but they aren't prepared to go the other way around roundabouts for some reason
16:29<Sacro>yes i know
16:29<@Bjarni>many accidents happens that way
16:29<@orudge>Mmh, yes, roundabouts and suchlike would be fun
16:29<Sacro>my dad got crashed into by a danish firetruck
16:29<@orudge>why would a Danish fire truck be here?
16:29<Sacro>on a roundabout
16:30<@Bjarni>wtf would a Danish firetruck do in Hull?
16:30<Sacro>orudge: there was a convention
16:30<Sacro>Bjarni even
16:30<@orudge>er, both of us
16:31<@Bjarni>firetrucks are used to other cars moving out of the way
16:31<Sacro>it didn't have its siren on
16:31<Sacro>it scuffed up on the roundabout and hit him
16:31<@Bjarni>I guess he just left the ferry
16:32<@Bjarni>could be his first British roundabout
16:32<Sacro>no, he was going back to the ferry
16:33[~]Bjarni remembers when he was driving a car with the wheel in the "wrong" side
16:33<@Bjarni>it took a bit to get used to switching gear with the other arm
16:33<Sacro>the wheel should be on the right
16:34<Sacro>and change gears with the left hand
16:34<@Bjarni>are you left handed?
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16:35<@Bjarni>actually driving in the right side makes more sense because then the hand brake and gear are controlled by the right arm
16:35<@orudge>but the right hand is dominant
16:36<@orudge>so that would be preferrable, would it not?
16:36<@Bjarni>yeah, that's my point
16:36<@orudge>[22:35:14] <Bjarni> actually driving in the right side makes more sense because then the hand brake and gear are controlled by the right arm
16:36<@orudge>when you're driving on the right side of the car, you control the gears, etc, with your left arm...
16:36<Sacro>orudge: you don't have to
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16:37<@orudge>Remind me not to be in the car if you're using your other arm :p
16:37<@Bjarni>I meant right side of the road
16:37<@Bjarni>so you are in the left side of the car
16:37<ln->the left hand is for holding the cell phone, the right one for tuning the radio. questions?
16:38<@Bjarni>Trains has the same issue, but it's more severe because when driving in the right, the driver is in the right (to see signals) and in order not to hit the fireman, the fireman would be on the left. Shoveling coal when standing in the left makes him hold the shovel right for righthanded people
16:38<@Bjarni>ln-: yeah... where is your 3rd arm to control the air condition?
16:39<+glx>the left hand to open the window :)
16:39<@Bjarni>when a train is driving in the left side, the driver is in the left, the fireman is in the right and has to hold the shovel like a left handed person
16:39<@Bjarni>so it really matters which side steam locomotives drive in
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16:40<+glx>locomotives drive on left side here
16:40[~]Bjarni tried left hand coal shoveling
16:40<@Bjarni>it's tricky :s
16:41<@Bjarni>yeah, I know several countries uses left side driving for their railroads... I don't know why though
16:41<@Bjarni>since the only reason to pick a side is the placement of the fireman and that would tell the railroads to use the right hand side
16:42<@Bjarni>so I guess it could be a random pick by engineers, who never planned on staying on a locomotive and didn't care for the engine crew
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16:43<@Bjarni>well, today it doesn't matter if a train drives on the left or right side as the )%(%#€%(€ railroads fired all the firemen
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16:45<+glx>firemen are not needed in electric loco
16:46<@Bjarni>they are on GG1
16:47<@Bjarni>heating steam boiler
16:47<@Bjarni>funny enough they are needed for electric engines, but not diesel o_O
16:48<@Bjarni>the heating steam boiler on diesel engines burns diesel fuel, but I don't know who adds water to it as needed
16:48<@Bjarni> <--- hahahaha
16:49<ln->london underground drives on the right, and i think normal trains too.
16:50<mikegrb>hmmm speaking of fire trucks we had an engine here that was on the way to a motor vehicle accident with extrication they rolled the truck
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16:50<mikegrb>they ended up having to be extricated!
16:50<mikegrb>their tools were on the drivers side which was in the air
16:51<mikegrb>so their own tools were used to cut them out!
16:51<@Bjarni>sounds nasty
16:54[~]stillunknown wonders why train collision checking is still done every tick
16:54<@Bjarni>reminds me of the story. Almost all the firemen were gathered to a party and one of the few, who wasn't there came running in and yelled "the fire station is on fire!!!". They laughed because they thought it was a joke, but it turned out that he was repairing a broken diesel pump and it leaked diesel on to the floor and his tools created a spark.... they had to send firetrucks from another town and when they arrived, it was too late
16:54<@Bjarni> to save anything
16:54<Rubidium>maybe because they could collide every tick?
16:55<stillunknown>At the expense of two bits per tile, it can be greatly reduced.
16:55<@Bjarni>imagine if it was a day event thing. Then theoretically two trains could pass each other if they are short and they were driving fast enough
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16:56<Jerub>stillunknown: 2 bits?
16:56<mikegrb>yeah, there was an artile in one of the firefighter magazines about a station somewhere in .us about 8 months back
16:56<@Bjarni>stillunknown: explain
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16:57<mikegrb>on the way back to their station they got dispatched to a smoke in the area call
16:57<@Bjarni>mikegrb: it was in Denmark and it was years ago
16:57<Jerub>stillunknown: two trains can travel through a tile and not hit each other..
16:57<stillunknown>Bjarni: On tileentry activate a bit, disable when leaving.
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16:57<mikegrb>as they got closer they reported that the smoke seemed to becoming from very near their station
16:58<mikegrb>then dispatch got the automatic fire alarm
16:58<stillunknown>Once a second train enters, activate the second bit, the check each tick for collisions.
16:58<mikegrb>Bjarni: different incident ;)
16:58<Rubidium>stillunknown: and when there are 3 trains on one tile?
16:58<Rubidium>or even four
16:58<Moriarty>The world generator seems very broken in nightly 10002
16:58<Jerub>stillunknown: that way you have to iterate over everh tile to find the tiles with two bits set.
16:59<Jerub>stillunknown: that's a much harder operation than iterating over each train you know..
16:59<@Bjarni>two on bits could indicate "more than one" and turning off the 2nd one would need to verify that the tile only contains one train
16:59<Moriarty>i.e. the OTTD hangs - Both terragenesis or Original break.
16:59<Jerub>(with 2 bits you can count to 3)
17:00<@Bjarni><Jerub> stillunknown: that way you have to iterate over everh tile to find the tiles with two bits set. <-- no. For the train, if v->tile(both set) {check for collision();}
17:00<Rubidium>Jerub: but there can be up to 4 trains on a single tile
17:01<stillunknown>I once did a less than perfect implementation, to see if it gave the desired performance improvement.
17:01<staniel|desktop>how can there be 4?
17:01<stillunknown>bridges maybe?
17:01<Jerub>Bjarni: okay... but you'd still have to iterate over all the other trains to see which one it could be.
17:01<stillunknown>ignore that
17:01<+glx>I can see 3 with bridges, but where is the fourth?
17:01<Jerub>Rubidium: come to think of it, if yoi were really clever, I reckon you could get 5 or 6 :)
17:02<staniel|desktop>ahh, maybe tunnels?
17:02<Rubidium>rail tiles with 2 pieces of track in the upper/lower or left/right
17:02<@Bjarni><Jerub> Bjarni: okay... but you'd still have to iterate over all the other trains to see which one it could be. <-- yeah, but it can skip all the trains that are on tiles with only one train (that's usually most of them)
17:02<Jerub>well, you can quite easily arrange a 4 way head on.
17:02<Rubidium>and two trains on each side
17:02<Jerub>X some track, send 4 trains in to meet in the middle.
17:03<stillunknown>But the penalty for 3 or more trains, will not occur often.
17:03<@Bjarni><stillunknown> I once did a less than perfect implementation, to see if it gave the desired performance improvement. <-- and what did the profiling tell you?
17:03<stillunknown>It went down the list a long way.
17:03<stillunknown>Forgot the exact numbers.
17:04<Jerub>5 is easy, you park a MJS250 in the middle...
17:04<Jerub>dunno how easy 6 would be...
17:04<@Bjarni>sure the collision detection is used more rarely, but did you include the checking and setting of the bits in your benchmark? We want this to be a overall speed improvement ;)
17:05<Rubidium>first park 4 trains on the left, right, top and bottom track pieces, then let a 4 way head on occur ;)
17:05<stillunknown>Bjarni: actually i had trouble finding it in the profiling
17:06<Jerub>Rubidium: you can make it a 5 way by planting a MJS250 in the dead center first :)
17:06<Rubidium>9 on a tile... hmmm
17:06<stillunknown>But in real life, how often would you have more than 2 trains on a tile?
17:06<Rubidium>only when you crash trains
17:06<Jerub>stillunknown: usually in collisions...
17:07<stillunknown>So the penalty for iterating over all trains is probably small, compared to checking collisions each tick.
17:08<@Bjarni>I like the idea of having a train counter. 2 bits would tell "0, 1, 2, more than 2". Special actions would take place in the last case
17:08<stillunknown>(in the case of 3 or more trains)
17:08<@Bjarni>3 trains or more is so rare that we don't have to optimise that case. 1 or 2 happens often enough to optimise those
17:09<@Bjarni>now the question is: can we find two bits that's always free on all rail tiles?
17:10<stillunknown>bit 2 and 3 for example
17:10<stillunknown> <-- This was the crude implementation i did a "long" time ago
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17:13<Moriarty>[23:01:01] Moriarty: The world generator seems very broken in nightly 10002
17:13<Moriarty> i.e. OTTD hangs - Both terragenesis and Original break.
17:14<+glx>works for me
17:14<Moriarty>Hmmm - Definately broken here - winxp
17:14<Moriarty>It shows funny things too - the mouse cursor looks like a grass tile
17:14[~]Bjarni compiles 10002
17:15<Moriarty>A snow tile even - it changed at least once when I just tested it.
17:15<@Bjarni>stillunknown: well, this idea looks really interesting. I didn't benchmark the collision detection. How severe is the CPU usage for it right now?
17:15<Moriarty>Hmm - turns out it was a grf (the snow in temporate grf)
17:16<Moriarty>Worked fine with the previous copy of OTTD I used (can't recall rev - deleted now)
17:17<stillunknown>Bjarni: I haven't run openttd in a while, but looking at the code (which seems the same), it's safe to say that for a train only network it's one of the top consumers.
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17:18<stillunknown>I just happened to get a flyspray mail about a patch i once submitted, and suddenly remembered this.
17:21<@Bjarni>are you up to do some performance tests so we can get some real numbers to decide if it's worth 2 bits?
17:21<stillunknown>I wrote this back then:
17:21<stillunknown>Under normal curcomstances the CheckTrainCollision() function is not called, testing suggest quite an improvement (60% vs 50% cpu usage on a map with 900-1000 trains).
17:23<stillunknown>But i have to go to bed now, i will set up up for some tests when i have the time.
17:23<+glx>we need a real performance comparison, using the same savegame for a long run
17:23<stillunknown>I used the same savegame.
17:23<@Bjarni>for the same period of time?
17:24<stillunknown>Yes, i watched the cpu beheaviour in top, because it would fluctuate initially iirc.
17:24<stillunknown>But i really must sleep now ;-)
17:25<+glx>cpu usage in top is not a real comparison I think
17:25<stillunknown>Profiling (and debugging) has one issue, it adds overhead, which has scale issues.
17:26<stillunknown>I wanted to know the actual effect on a game as well.
17:26<stillunknown>really gone now.
17:26<@Bjarni>bye stillunknown
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17:26<+glx>gn stillunknown
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17:55<kaan>goodnight all :)
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18:14<Sacro>thoguh Bjarni isn't actually dutch
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18:32<@Bjarni>Sacro: that depends... if you don't block the road for anybody, then yes
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18:33<@Bjarni>it's not particular safe traffic to do so xD
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18:33<Sionide>the next big thing in ottd is gonna be road traffic
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---Logclosed Fri Jun 01 00:00:56 2007