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#openttd IRC Logs for 2007-06-07

---Logopened Thu Jun 07 00:00:41 2007
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01:28<boekabart>goodmorning earthlings
01:28<hylje>evening boekabart
01:29<boekabart>strange.. how one wishes to others what actually is valid for oneself...
01:29<boekabart>so, good evening hylje :)
01:29<hylje>:o
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02:21<CIA-1>OpenTTD: peter1138 * r10052 /trunk/src/newgrf.cpp: -Codechange: Support reserve/activate stage bits of action 7/9 variable 84.
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03:20<Nickman>hi all
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03:58<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r10053 /trunk/src/road_cmd.cpp: -Fix: could not clear a level-crossing tile with tram tracks.
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04:18<TheJosh>where can i put some code to clean up some stuff when a game is abandoned?
04:18<TheJosh>aka dynamic array
04:19<@peter1138>we just rely on the OS ;p
04:19<@peter1138>i don't think ottd runs on any systems that don't free up used memory on exit
04:20<boekabart>it runs... once
04:20<Kjetil>Oh noes.. it won't run on DOS ! aaaaahhh
04:20<boekabart>maybe twice
04:20<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r10054 /trunk/src/ (4 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: make the industries cost modifier look more like the original one, so it's much easier to support industries that use this original format.
04:20<@peter1138>Kjetil: does DOS even have a concept of free memory? heh
04:20<@peter1138>i imagine any dos 'extender' would handle it anyway
04:20<@peter1138>just guessing though
04:20<boekabart>well there was always too little, so it must have
04:21<Rubidium>anything about 640kB is free, right?
04:21<Rubidium>*above
04:21<@peter1138>i think 'mem' knew of stuff in EMS/XMS, so...
04:22<@peter1138>hmm, mem is qemu says so, but that's freedos
04:22<boekabart>peter1138: pretty sure that the heap of the protected mode 'layer' would clean up better than openttd does :)
04:22<@peter1138>Extended (XMS) 130,048K 12,744K 117,304K
04:22<boekabart>you run DOS on the side? :)
04:22<@peter1138>yeha
04:22<TheJosh>so noone cleans up there heap objects anymore?
04:22<Kjetil>peter1138: haha.. I was using Dos the other day. I am amazed how poorly designed it is. Why did people buy that crap ?..
04:22<@peter1138>ottd only cleans up between games ;)
04:22<TheJosh>isnt a 'memory leak' a non-cleaned up heap object?
04:23<Rubidium>no
04:23<TheJosh>i have a unopened genuiene copy of MS-DOS 6.2
04:23<Nickman>Cool :D
04:23<Rubidium>a memory leak is a non-cleaned up heap object that doesn't have any reference to it anymore
04:23<Biff>memory leak is when you have allocated memory which has 0 references to it
04:23<@peter1138>"FreeDOS is resident in the high memory area."
04:23<@peter1138>woo, intelligent
04:23<TheJosh>but if the program closes, there will be no reference to my object
04:24<@peter1138>still only 619KB of 'conventional' memory free
04:24<@peter1138>heheh
04:24<Biff>if the program closes the memory is free
04:24<@peter1138>been AGES since i heard that conventional memory term
04:24<Kjetil>Biff: if you run a proper os :P
04:24<@peter1138>even windows frees it, heh
04:24<Biff>what os doesnt free memory?
04:24<Kjetil>dos :P
04:24<TheJosh>old windows
04:25<Biff>i think win9x had some bugs, but it did it
04:25<TheJosh>95 and 98
04:25<Biff>well, it did free memory, but there were some bugs that were never fixed, so it didnt always manage to free memory
04:25<boekabart>95/98 tried to, but didn't have the possibility to enforce it 100% i think
04:25<TheJosh>and XP until your program uses about 800mb of ram (i tested it once by mkaing lots of integers)
04:25<Biff>hehe
04:26<TheJosh>then at 90% full or so it just drops off
04:26<Biff>that seems like a hard way to do it .-)
04:26<TheJosh>i guess the GC went through
04:26<Biff>what GC?
04:26<boekabart>that's swapping. look at VM size rather than memory size
04:26<TheJosh>nonetheless, can i execute code to clean up this memory?
04:26<TheJosh>GC = garbage collector
04:26<@peter1138>what GC, not what is GC
04:26<Biff>yes, did you use a gc language?
04:27<TheJosh>no this experiment was in c++
04:27<Biff>if you used something like java, its the java vm that frees up the memory, by doing reference counting
04:27<boekabart>XeryusTC: we talked about GC yesterday too
04:27<Nickman>C and C++ doesn't do automatic GC ..
04:27<Nickman>as I recall...
04:27<XeryusTC>:o
04:27<boekabart>you can easily replace your malloc/free by a GC library.
04:27<TheJosh>the os must then if what you guys are taling about is true
04:27<Biff>ok, then there usually is no GC
04:28<Biff>TheJosh: the os knows when the process is closed, and it can mark its memory as free
04:28<Nickman>in C++ you have to do all garbage collection yourself. But this only goas for dangling pointers...
04:28<boekabart>if you close a program when debugging it in in msvc, i'll give you a list of all the memory blocks unfreed
04:28<Nickman>local varables and stuff are removed when they go out of scope
04:28<Nickman>and indeed, when the program terminates, the OS recieves all the memory again ;)
04:28<Biff>boekabart: ah, something like valgrind
04:28<boekabart>then you can set a breakpoint on their allocation (if repeatable)
04:29<@peter1138>valgrind is just designed to make it impossible to test by being really slow...
04:29<boekabart>so if you make sure the game does 100% the same thing on a run (until closing) you can figure out what blocks they are.
04:29[~]peter1138 remembers that days when newgrf leaked memory like a sieve
04:29<TheJosh>where can i put some code after the game has been closed?
04:30<@peter1138>UnInitializeGame() in openttd.cpp does some clean up
04:30<boekabart>class bla { public: ~bla() { /* the code */ } } onebla;
04:30<Nickman>when the game is closed you shouldn't do anything, it gets thrown away anyway... :D
04:30<@peter1138>not all pools are cleaned up though. hmm.
04:31<Nickman>yeah, use destructors...
04:31<@peter1138>boekabart: roflcopters
04:31<Biff>is there any free space in savegames?
04:31<boekabart>only in small ones :)
04:31<TheJosh>peter1138: thanks for an actual answer
04:31<Biff>or rather, if i wanted the savegame to remember last railtype used, would it break compatibility?
04:32<boekabart>Biff: you can add a variable to patches
04:32<boekabart>without UI
04:32<boekabart>you'll have to bump the savegame version though
04:32<Rubidium>Biff: not necessarily, but requires quite a lot of work to do it in a way that you can still load old savegames
04:33<Biff>i see
04:33<Rubidium>so, technically possible, practically unfeasible
04:34<Biff>i hate building the wrong type of rail
04:34<Biff>:p
04:34<TheJosh>does openttd mainly use malloc or new ??
04:34<TheJosh>to create an object on the heap
04:34<@peter1138>mainly malloc
04:34<TheJosh>malloc and free?
04:35<Rubidium>no, malloc and delete and new and free ofcourse ;)
04:35<TheJosh>ok thanks
04:35<Rubidium>*kuch*
04:35<boekabart>whoops :)
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04:38<Rubidium>TheJosh: do you have *any* real knowledge about programming in C(++)? As in not applying php skills or so on C(++)
04:39<Nickman>:D
04:40<Noldo>Rubidium!
04:40<TheJosh>Rubidium: i have some C++ but i am mainly using OpenTTD as a C++ learning platform. I do have about 12-14 years programmign experience in 19 languges at last count
04:40<boekabart>TheJosh: 19?!?
04:41<boekabart>TheJosh: is that including english? just kidding :)
04:41<TheJosh>some are dialects. 15 to be safe
04:41<TheJosh>also depends what you think of html and css
04:41[~]boekabart would like to see a list :)
04:41<Rubidium>does that include C?
04:41<@peter1138>html and css are not programming languages
04:41<TheJosh>probably shouldnt
04:42<TheJosh>i know, but they still require learning
04:42<@peter1138>(but javascript is, of course)
04:42<ln->TheJosh: html and css are of course not programming languages.
04:42<boekabart>TheJosh: xsl is, though.
04:42<TheJosh>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:TheJosh
04:42<Rubidium>xml and uml neither, unless you're talking about exectable uml
04:43<TheJosh>i know all that
04:43<TheJosh>of course there not programming langues. they are markup languages (except css, thats a style language0
04:43<boekabart>you haven't even left earth yet, ever?
04:43<boekabart>:)
04:44<TheJosh>its on the todo: list
04:44<boekabart>does jumping count?
04:44<TheJosh>in that case i have left earth
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04:45<TheJosh>"Segmentation Fault" whee
04:45<ln->i don't think regular expressions are a programming language either.
04:45<Noldo>gotta love them
04:46<Rubidium>does "This user can program in X" mean "This user did some stuff in language X, but doesn't have a deep understanding of the langauge"?
04:46<Noldo>ln-: it's a language defining language
04:46<Rubidium>in that case my list becomes pretty long too
04:46<TheJosh>yeah
04:46<TheJosh>but a stack on that list I do have a deep understanding of
04:46<blathijs>Saying "XML is a programming language" is like saying "Text is a programming language", really
04:47<TheJosh>proably c/c++, scheme and asm i dont know very well
04:47<TheJosh>im not saying xml is a programming language
04:47<TheJosh>ok 14 programming langues, 11 im good at
04:47<blathijs>The reverse also goes, btw :-)
04:47<blathijs>oh, we're counting programming languages :-)
04:48<TheJosh>i know i wont win, but i dont care. i just do my best
04:48<boekabart>blathijs & Rubidium : http://www.digitalmars.com/d/
04:48<Rubidium>yeah, I know that (a little)
04:49<ln->when I change text to bold and italics in openoffice, and even change font, am I programming in openofficeish?
04:49<blathijs>ln-: If you like to think so, then yes ;-p
04:49<Rubidium>hmm, does vhdl count?
04:49<boekabart>DUH!
04:49<boekabart>of course it does
04:50[~]boekabart wonders if he just said duh out load
04:50<Rubidium>well, it is a hardware description language
04:50<boekabart>well.. isn't C is a software description language :)
04:50<Rubidium>ofcourse it looks awfully lot like a programming language
04:51<boekabart>it's all if (input) then output();
04:52<Rubidium>in that case... I can (i.e. once programmed in) [..lot of languages..] ;)
04:53<skidd13>Remember all the shell/batch/makro languages... The list is huge.
04:53<boekabart>i'm quite a btm expert myself :)
04:53<TheJosh>i only wrote bash because i can do loops and ifs and stuff like that in bash
04:58<TheJosh>i think i am killing the code
04:58<TheJosh>dont worry i will get my patch working before i release it
04:58<skidd13>Did someone tried the new ms batch thing (don't remember the name)?
04:59<boekabart>i've played with it a while ago
04:59<boekabart>but man didn't work, so i gave up quickly
04:59<boekabart>can't imagine why they had to invent smth new
04:59<boekabart>any choice of langs (like python) would have worked fine imho
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05:00<skidd13>I've a bash runing at my NT 5.1 @work. So I don't mind what MS invents. :)
05:02<boekabart>nt5.1? that's code for?
05:02<boekabart>2003 sp 0?
05:02<Rubidium>XP iirc
05:02<@peter1138>TheJosh: besides, 'asm' for which processor?
05:02<skidd13>XP aka codename "whistler" ...
05:03<boekabart>Microsoft Windows XP [Version 5.1.2600]
05:03<skidd13>5.2 is 2003
05:03<boekabart>ok
05:03[~]peter1138 knows 'asm' for 6502, not that it's very useful
05:03<TheJosh>peter1138: x86
05:03<boekabart>peter1138: 99% same as 6800/68000?
05:03<@peter1138>not as far as i know
05:04<@peter1138>heh, i used to use debug at school to 'enable' the mouse pointer in DOS
05:05<boekabart>i've never used masm. just debug.exe and ah, edit.exe?
05:06<@peter1138>assembly the real man's way ;)
05:07<boekabart>well it's hard to make a lot that way
05:07<Nickman>I know some assemble ;). Had to make a quicksort in it :|
05:08<boekabart>a made a tsr once to hook int so-much calls that would enable me to use my C64 joysticks in dos games (via a parallel port interface)
05:08<Nickman>assembly*
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05:10<skidd13>Every programming-language has it's purpose ... even if it's nonsense or fun ... (except prolog IMO :lol:)
05:11<TheJosh>would I be able to pm someone so i can get some advice (without embarresment or ruining your assembly conversation)
05:14<skidd13>Rubidium: I splitted the rest of the order_gui patch. Where should I post it? Flyspray?
05:16<boekabart>XeryusTC: patch managment, we talked about that too :)
05:16<XeryusTC>:o
05:17<XeryusTC>that took you a long time to come up with :P
05:18<TheJosh>mewh im off
05:18<TheJosh>cya round everyone
05:19<TheJosh>sorry about all the c++ questions
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05:22<Nickman>skidd13: I learnd Prolog, Haskell and LISP this year, I hate em :p
05:23<skidd13>Prolog has abilitys, but I don't like it either.
05:24<Nickman>yeah, you can dome some cool stuff with it
05:30<Nickman>I'm gonna try to compile OTTD in Cygwin, any problems I should look out for?
05:32<hylje>its silly
05:33<Nickman>?
05:33<skidd13>Just another thing: what about NC-Programming (programming or description language)?
05:34<skidd13>NC -> CNC
05:34<Nickman>hmmmm
05:34<Nickman>that's a tuff one :)
05:34<Nickman>You describe all the movements so I would say description
05:35<skidd13>but in some dialect you can do if and sub programms etc.
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05:35<Nickman>yeah
05:35<Nickman>don't knwo about that...
05:41<Nickman>Cygwin keeps hanging here : "[SRC] DEP CHECK (all files)"
05:41<Nickman>ah, it's going further ;)
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05:43[~]peter1138 kicks CIA-1
05:43<CIA-1>ow
05:43<Nickman>lol
05:43<Nickman>peter1138: getting compile errors in cygwin, could you help maybe?
05:43<Nickman>or is it plain stupid to try and compile in cygwin
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05:44<@peter1138>should work no problem
05:44<Nickman>this is my log : http://pastebin.ca/547316
05:44<Nickman>am I missing some libraries?
05:45<@peter1138>tuff
05:45<@peter1138>err
05:45<@peter1138>you're missing zlib/libpng stuff
05:46<@peter1138>grrr, that's pissing me off
05:46<Nickman>hmmmm, I installed them... :s
05:46<Nickman>I'll recheck
05:46<@peter1138>and their devel counter parts?
05:46<Nickman>ah, maybe that's the thing...
05:46<Nickman>sec
05:46<Nickman>whats pissing you off?
05:47<@peter1138>some oddity on my system/ssh/screen/irssi/somewhere
05:47<@peter1138>i'll be typing something and it'll suddenly clear the line, or go back to a previous line i typed
05:47<@peter1138>as if the mouse wheel is moving on its own, perhaps
05:48<Nickman>I have from libpng:
05:48<Nickman>libpng 12: PNG library 1.2.x runtime (1.2.12-1)
05:48<Nickman>libpng 122-devel: PNG library - 1.2.x development libraries and headers (1.2.12-1)
05:48<Nickman>do I need the source to?
05:49<Nickman>zlib I have 1.2.3-2 (only one thing is in cygwin...)
05:53<Nickman>peter1138 ?
05:55<blathijs>Nickman: -devel should be enough
05:56<Nickman>I have em so... :s
05:57<Nickman>why am I getting this... svn: '\cygdrive\e\OpenTTD\src' does not exist
05:57<Nickman>it does exitst
06:18<stillunknown>Rubidium: ping
06:19<DJGummikuh>Pong
06:20<DJGummikuh>package re-rout
06:20<DJGummikuh>e
06:20<stillunknown>I'm not pinging you ;-)
06:20<boekabart>MIM attack!
06:20<Nickman>:D
06:20<DJGummikuh>yay
06:21<Nickman>I think I'm having problems with svn in cygwin ;)
06:21<blathijs>Nickman: What svn command triggers that error?
06:22<Nickman>I'm trying to get OTTD compiled :d
06:22<Nickman>don'tk now the command but I get this
06:22<Nickman>svn: '\cygdrive\e\OpenTTD\src' does not exist
06:22<Nickman>so.. I'm guessing something wrong with my subersion
06:22<Nickman>I'm adding some packages to cygwin
06:23<blathijs>Nickman: Can you try "make VERBOSE=1", that should display the executed commands IIRC
06:23<Nickman>aha
06:23<Nickman>I'll try when cygwin update is done ;)
06:24<stillunknown>Rubidium: revision 10049 broke multiplayer games
06:24<stillunknown>openttd: /ts/downloads/openttd2/src/saveload.cpp:297: int SlIterateArray(): Assertion `next_offs == 0 || SlGetOffs() == next_offs' failed.
06:24<stillunknown>When trying to join.
06:24<Eddi|zuHause2><skidd13> Every programming-language has it's purpose ... even if it's nonsense or fun ... (except prolog IMO :lol:) <- prolog is clearly one of the greatest languages invented :)
06:26<Nickman>and why is that? :p
06:27<Eddi|zuHause2>because!
06:28<Eddi|zuHause2>but really, prolog is so cool if you can handle it properly :)
06:29<blathijs>#troll prolog
06:29<Eddi|zuHause2>above that is only Haskell :)
06:30<Eddi|zuHause2>in what other language can you calculate all prime numbers in a short one-liner?
06:30<Nickman>hahaha :D
06:30<Nickman>that's true :d
06:30<DJGummikuh>Eddi|zuHause2: in what language would you possibly WANT that?
06:30<DJGummikuh>:D
06:30<Eddi|zuHause2>you need prime numbers for lots of reasons :)
06:30<DJGummikuh>hmm agreed
06:31<Eddi|zuHause2>but try to implement the sieve of erathostenes in C(++)
06:32<DJGummikuh>what I did not understand until today: is it random how industries change output or can I somehow manipulate that?
06:32<DJGummikuh>I mean the ressource gathering industries like mines and wells
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06:36<Nickman>blathijs: http://pastebin.ca/547410 new compile log...
06:37<Nickman>all goes well until heigtmap
06:37<blathijs>Nickman: So, the svn issue is resolved, that's good
06:38<blathijs>Nickman: It seems you don't have zlib-devel or something similar?
06:38<DJGummikuh>what I did not understand until today: is it random how industries change output or can I somehow manipulate that?
06:38<DJGummikuh>I mean the ressource gathering industries like mines and wells
06:38<blathijs>Nickman: Did you run ./configure? What output does it give?
06:38<Nickman>I have it installed, but it searches for the file in de libPNG folder?
06:38<Nickman>I did run it, but it scrolled out of range :d
06:38<Nickman>I'll run it again
06:39<blathijs>Ther should be an -I argument for zlib too, but I can't find it
06:39<Nickman>configure log : http://pastebin.ca/547417
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06:40<Nickman>yeah, that I is missing... :|
06:40[~]DJGummikuh feels ignored
06:41<Nickman>The zlib.h file is in the main include folder...
06:41<Nickman>DJGummikuh: I have no ID :)
06:41<DJGummikuh>Nickman: no ID? ^^
06:41<Nickman>no idea ;)
06:41<DJGummikuh>hmm...
06:41<DJGummikuh>who has, then?
06:43<DJGummikuh>oopsie
06:43<blathijs>Nickman: Where is zlib.h exactly?
06:44<Nickman>in /usr/include
06:44<blathijs>that should work...
06:46<blathijs>Nickman: I think you need -I /usr/include explicitely passed
06:46<Nickman>yeah, but how do I do that?
06:47<Nickman>I tried copying the zlib.h file into the llibpng folder now ;)
06:47<Nickman>:d
06:47<Nickman>:D
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06:47<blathijs>Nickman: That probably worked, right?
06:48<Nickman>dunno, it's busy :d
06:48<blathijs>Nickman: export CFLAGS="-I/usr/include" should help
06:48<blathijs>then reconfigure and recompile
06:48<Nickman>ah
06:48<Nickman>I'll try that in a minure
06:48<Nickman>minute
06:48<DJGummikuh>hmm can't the dedicated dump a screenshot of the map?
06:49<Nickman>?
06:49<blathijs>bbl
06:49<DJGummikuh>I'm in dedicated control and did screenshot big
06:49<DJGummikuh>I'm certain it cannot create a simple screenshot because it doesn't know where to look but screenshot big should work on dedicated server as well imho
06:50<Nickman>the DEP check takes ages...
06:50<Eddi|zuHause2>you can do a "goto <tile>"
06:50<Eddi|zuHause2>then take a normal screenshot
06:50<Eddi|zuHause2>like brianettas "webcam"
06:50<DJGummikuh>goto: command not found
06:50<DJGummikuh>Eddi|zuHause2: lol? link?
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06:51<Eddi|zuHause2>it's "scrollto", i believe
06:51<DJGummikuh>yeah
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06:51<Eddi|zuHause2>it's in the forum somewhere
06:51<DJGummikuh>but when I create a screenshot, I get libpng error: IDAT: CRC error
06:51<Eddi|zuHause2>or on ppcis.org
06:52<DJGummikuh>http://134.130.54.198:8001/ss3.png
06:52<DJGummikuh>that should be a screenshot of the entire map
06:52<Kjetil>you killed my firefox ! :P
06:53<DJGummikuh>ah lol sry
06:53<DJGummikuh>I wgetted it and tried with feh
06:53<Nickman>firefox sucks at big images :D
06:53<DJGummikuh>woah it kills my opera too :)
06:53<Nickman>it doesn't kill my opera...
06:54<boekabart>ie7 shows it
06:54<DJGummikuh>nah but my system :))
06:54<DJGummikuh>boekabart: reallyß
06:54<DJGummikuh>that is odd
06:54<Eddi|zuHause2>it opene directly in gwenview here...
06:54<DJGummikuh>I use the standard libpng library and it doesnt work here
06:54<DJGummikuh>even opera shows it only black
06:54<boekabart>that's the corner
06:54<boekabart>it IS black
06:54<boekabart>scroll to center
06:55<DJGummikuh>AH LOL
06:55<Eddi|zuHause2>the corner is always black :)
06:55[~]DJGummikuh = TEH N00B
06:55<boekabart>well you said it ;)
06:55<DJGummikuh>feh can't display it nonetheless
06:55<Nickman>euhm blathijs, placing the file in the libpng folder caused abunch of errors :D
06:55<DJGummikuh>and why are the trees transparent?
06:56<Eddi|zuHause2>because you set that?
06:56<boekabart>apparently that's your server default setting?
06:56<DJGummikuh>hm... what's the var to change that?
06:57<blathijs>Nickman: And with the CFLAGS thing?
06:57<Eddi|zuHause2>list_patches?
06:58<Eddi|zuHause2>i actually have no idea
06:58<Nickman>I'm trying blathijs but don't i have to do the "export CFLAGS="-I/usr/include"" after I configure?
06:58<DJGummikuh>cool
06:58<DJGummikuh>can I somehow get help to a specific patch setting?
06:59<Eddi|zuHause2>in the worst case, grep the source code :)
06:59<blathijs>Nickman: no, the configure should pick it up and save it
07:00<blathijs>Nickman: in any case, bash will keep the CFLAGS value around as well
07:00<Nickman>ah, it's there!
07:00<Nickman>I'll try to compile ;)
07:01<DJGummikuh>can I alter the config file while a game runs? so that when I restart the server afterwards, it uses the new config?
07:01<Eddi|zuHause2>on normal program termination, the config file is overwritten
07:02<Eddi|zuHause2>so you'd have to kill the server
07:02<DJGummikuh>meh
07:03<Nickman>blathijs: new log : http://pastebin.ca/547467
07:04<DJGummikuh>what are freight_trains in the config?
07:04<Nickman>I get another error now
07:06<Eddi|zuHause2>the freight train multiplier affects acceleration with full trains
07:06<blathijs>Nickman: uh... I don't really know what causes that :-S
07:06<Eddi|zuHause2>for all except passengers/mail, the weight of the wagon is multiplied
07:07<blathijs>Nickman: It seems that something is different for files in subdirectories (ie, "ai", but I can't tell what exactly)
07:07<Eddi|zuHause2>i.e. like 1 "symbolic" wagon represents 5 "real" wagons
07:07<Nickman>I'll try a full recomiple...
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07:22<Nickman>blathijs: new log : http://pastebin.ca/547525
07:22<Nickman>now it dies at the second file already :D
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07:24<blathijs>Nickman: It seems it doesn't like the -I/usr/include then?
07:24<Nickman>no :s
07:29<Eddi|zuHause2>didn't the wiki always say libpng does not work under cygwin?
07:30<Nickman>it's zlib that's causing problems :(
07:32<stillunknown>blathijs: the r10000 party, wasn't it a bit impractical, during the day (classes and such)?
07:36<Rubidium>who has classes anyway?
07:36<stillunknown>People who go to universities ;-)
07:37<boekabart>or high schools
07:37<stillunknown>Rubidium: did you get the message, i sent (about the bug you introduced)?
07:37<Nickman>blathijs: I think I'm getting further than before!! I forgot to copy a file to the libpng (zlib has 2 files) nog they are both in lobpng :p
07:37<boekabart>come in, CIA
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07:37<TheJosh>hey
07:37<boekabart>CIA?
07:37<CIA-1>OpenTTD: miham * r10055 /trunk/src/lang/ (6 files): (log message trimmed)
07:37<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update: WebTranslator2 update to 2007-06-07 14:37:06
07:37<CIA-1>OpenTTD: brazilian_portuguese - 3 fixed by tucalipe (3)
07:37<CIA-1>OpenTTD: catalan - 3 fixed by arnaullv (3)
07:37<CIA-1>OpenTTD: danish - 1 fixed by ThomasA (1)
07:37<CIA-1>OpenTTD: estonian - 99 fixed by kristjans (99)
07:37<CIA-1>OpenTTD: galician - 8 fixed by Condex (8)
07:38<boekabart>good boy
07:38<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r10056 /trunk/src/ (saveload.cpp saveload.h vehicle.cpp): -Revert (r10049): removing SLE_WRITEBYTE didn't work as expected :(. Somehow SlIterateArray and SlObject depend on eachother and adding a some arbitrary data before the SlObject makes it go crazy.
07:38<boekabart>CIA-1: you can stop now
07:38<Nickman>lol
07:38<Nickman>I think I'm actually compile OTTD!!!!
07:38<Nickman>:D
07:38<Rubidium>stillunknown: what message?
07:38<stillunknown>The thing you just fixed ;-)
07:38<TheJosh>excuse me could someone please point out what im doing wrong? im sure its something real simple but its driving me nutter
07:38<Rubidium>(hopefully fixed)
07:39<Nickman>show us :p
07:39<Rubidium>you're using malloc and delete together?
07:39<boekabart>or new and free?
07:39<TheJosh>i cant even get malloc to work
07:39<TheJosh>i keep segfaulting
07:40<TheJosh>i have this variable:
07:40<TheJosh>static TextEffect *_text_effect_list = NULL;
07:40<boekabart>TheJosh: use http://paste.openttd.org/ if you need to paste larger pieces of code
07:40<TheJosh>can i do one liners?
07:40<Nickman>I'm getting linking error now : http://pastebin.ca/547585
07:40<Nickman>can someone help? :(
07:40<TheJosh>ill use paste
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07:41<stillunknown>Rubidium: My problem is gone.
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07:43<TheJosh>http://paste.openttd.org/83
07:43<stillunknown>Can anyone explain why a dedicated server still does rendering?
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07:44<boekabart>stillunknown: the calls are all over the place
07:45<TheJosh>sorry im such a n00b
07:45<Eddi|zuHause2>stillunknown: because nobody took the time to unfiddle the spaghetti code
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07:45<@peter1138>no they're not
07:45<@peter1138>it's pretty simple to stop it
07:46<boekabart>peter1138: yes they are. there are about 16 calls accessing the video memory
07:46<boekabart>16 functions
07:46<TheJosh>http://paste.openttd.org/85 actually
07:47<boekabart>TheJosh: you could've updated the first one :)
07:47<Nickman>peter1138: you have any idea about this linking error? http://pastebin.ca/547585 is my libPNG corrupt or so?
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07:48<TheJosh>i tried to but it then only had my new stuff
07:48<Rubidium>TheJosh: why malloc something that has *always* the same static size?
07:48<TheJosh>i think i screwed it uyp. just look for 3 posts by me
07:48<boekabart>nevermind
07:48<TheJosh>Rubidium: because i wanted to get the array working to begin with, then add the dynamic stuff
07:48<boekabart>i see your problem
07:48<boekabart>line 42
07:49<boekabart>_text_effect_list[i] is a TextEffect, not a *. You put that into a *
07:49<stillunknown>Why not use some kind of data container for this?
07:49<boekabart>make line 43 _text_effect_list[i].string_id != /....
07:50<Rubidium>but the compiler should cry about that, unless he's using 0.5.x (but even then it should)
07:50<boekabart>Rubidium: it should
07:50<@peter1138>boekabart: accessing video memory? i think you're looking at the wrong level
07:50<boekabart>peter1138: _cur_dpi, i mean
07:51<@peter1138>then yes, you're at the wrong level
07:51<boekabart>Q is: if you move the 'if' up one level... won't you skip out on other code too?
07:52<TheJosh>"texteff.cpp:282: error: cannot convert ‘TextEffect’ to ‘TextEffect*’ in assignment" (aka line 42)
07:52<boekabart>TheJosh: that was what Rubidium and I were expecting
07:52<@peter1138>boekabart: not if you do it at the right place
07:53<boekabart>peter1138: like i did in the 'renderer' class patch, do you consider that the right place or not?
07:53<@peter1138>no, that's way too low
07:54<boekabart>rendere: http://paste.openttd.org/86
07:55<@peter1138>hehe, = 0
07:55<@peter1138>stupid C++ :p
07:55<boekabart>#define pure = 0 :)
07:55<TheJosh>boekabart: so how do I avoid casting hell? how can something seemingly so simple be so crap?
07:55<boekabart>without the :)
07:55<boekabart>TheJosh: 1 sec
07:55<TheJosh>ok thanks
07:55<boekabart>(by not taking this approach, by the way).
07:56<@peter1138>boekabart: with that you're still telling it what to draw, including loading and looking up sprites
07:56<boekabart>TheJosh: http://paste.openttd.org/87
07:57<boekabart>peter1138: looking up, yes, loading, no (that's done in DrawSprite or GfxMainBlitter i think)
07:57<Nickman>blathijs: http://pastebin.ca/547585 any idea?
07:59<boekabart>peter1138: obviously, the EmptyRenderer returns immediately on all calls. (or returning a dummy value)
08:00<@peter1138>you can save a lot of processing by returning early in ViewportDraw
08:00<TheJosh>boekabart: still segfaults. that function does other stuff with te after the loop
08:00<@peter1138>you can save even more by not calling doing anything with windows at all
08:01<TheJosh>things like "te->string_id = msg;"
08:01<TheJosh>am I asking at a bad time?
08:01<boekabart>TheJosh: are you sure the _list... is not NULL there?
08:02<TheJosh>how do you output an error?
08:02<TheJosh>printf?
08:04<valhallasw>depends what you want to happen
08:04<TheJosh>i just need to know when my funciton is called
08:08<TheJosh>the list is defidently there
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08:08<Eddi|zuHause2>TheJosh: use debug()
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08:10<XeryusTC>TheJosh: assert()
08:10<Eddi|zuHause2>that's probably not what he wants :)
08:10<TheJosh>thanks anyway
08:12<TheJosh>the problem is not in the loop. it is after the loop
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08:14<TheJosh>http://paste.openttd.org/88 << entire function
08:14<TheJosh>it segfaults after "doing stuff"
08:16<blathijs>Nickman: Ah, you;ve reached the linker :-)
08:16<boekabart>TheJosh: now te is never set
08:16<boekabart>the outside one
08:17<boekabart>right
08:17<blathijs>Nickman: I don't know what causes that, perhaps some library should be linked in that isn't...
08:17<boekabart>replace line 13 by
08:17<boekabart>te = &_text_effect_list[i];
08:17<blathijs>Nickman: (btw, do document your findings on the wiki if you get it to work..)
08:17<boekabart>and init te with NULL and test for it after the for
08:18<Eddi|zuHause2>that code does not make any sense to me
08:18<Nickman>blathijs: I got the compiling to work by placing the zlib files into the pnglib folder :p
08:19<Nickman>but now I think my libPNG isn't correct or something...
08:19<TheJosh>"texteff.cpp:284: error: request for member ‘string_id’ in ‘te’, which is of non-class type ‘TextEffect*’"
08:19<Eddi|zuHause2>e.g. why is it te.string_id once, and te->string_id the other time?
08:19<TheJosh>284 is line 14
08:20<Nickman>te is a pointer, replace te te. with te-> on line 14 and try again
08:20<TheJosh>changed te.string_id to te->string_id
08:20<Nickman>and?
08:20<TheJosh>it compiles, runs, doenst segfault
08:21<TheJosh>but also does nothing (the array is not updated)
08:21<Nickman>tada ;)
08:21<Nickman>hehe :D
08:21<TheJosh>the function does not work
08:21<Nickman>where does it have to add it?
08:21<TheJosh>to the array.
08:21<Nickman>what array needs to be updated?
08:22<Nickman>could you point me to the line where you update the array?
08:22<TheJosh>the loop is to find a free spot in the array. i did not code this, i am just tryng to get it working with a dynamic array so i can have 25 or 1000 elements
08:22<TheJosh>the original code did not have a update it used pointers i guess
08:23<Nickman>so, in the for loop, you are looking for an empty spot?
08:23<TheJosh>yes
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08:23<Eddi|zuHause2>i think you should look into container types...
08:23<TheJosh>thanks
08:23<Eddi|zuHause2>and not try to fiddle with this stuff
08:23<Nickman>what type does "_text_effect_list[i]" return ?
08:23<TheJosh>a struct
08:24<TheJosh>Eddi|zuHause2: i play with containers every day (aka high-level languages) how can i learn stuff if i take the easy road each time
08:24<TheJosh>sure im diving everyone nuts, and to that im sorry
08:25<Nickman>why don't you change this TextEffect *te; into TextEffect te;
08:25<Nickman>and don't work with silly pointer?
08:25<Nickman>since you have to get rid of the pointer here : TextEffect &te = _text_effect_list[i];
08:25<Nickman>?
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08:25<Eddi|zuHause2>yes, why don't you directly assign stuff to _text_effect_list[i]?
08:25<TheJosh>i dunno
08:26<TheJosh>its just the way the old code was
08:26<Eddi|zuHause2>e.g. in the if...break part
08:26<Eddi|zuHause2>where i is still valid
08:27<Eddi|zuHause2>btw. is that intentional that, if no free spot is found, the last spot is overwritten?
08:27<Nickman>try this? http://paste.openttd.org/89
08:27<TheJosh>originally it had a weird loop
08:28<TheJosh>look in texteff.cpp around line 270
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08:30<TheJosh>Nickman: sorry didnt work
08:30<TheJosh>dont worry about this i will get it eventually.
08:30<TheJosh>thanks everyone
08:30<TheJosh>im going to bed now
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08:31<Eddi|zuHause2>TheJosh: yes, this "weird" loop does nothing if the array is full
08:31<Eddi|zuHause2>because it returns
08:31<Eddi|zuHause2>your loop just exits and continues with the assignments
08:32<Eddi|zuHause2>i hope you notice the difference between a "break" and a "return"
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08:35<Nickman>hehe, he will get a corrupt array if he tries his code :)
08:40<CIA-1>OpenTTD: glx * r10057 /trunk/Makefile.src.in: -Fix (r10051): git version detection didn't work for mingw/msys
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08:47<TheJosh>got it
08:47<TheJosh>thanks everyone
08:47<TheJosh>im off now again
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09:07<Nickman>blathijs: new compile error (messing with some packages...) http://pastebin.ca/547734
09:07<Nickman>any idea?
09:07<+glx>freetype
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09:09<Nickman>yeah, but how can I solve it?
09:09<Nickman>just delete it or what? :p
09:11<boekabart>no, get it!
09:17<Nickman>I have it, that's the problem :D
09:18<Nickman>I just installed it in cygwin and now I get these errors ;)
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09:22<eekee>I'd sugest that it's either the wrong version of freetype, or more likely that it's installed somewhere that gcc isn't looking
09:24<Nickman>hmmmm
09:24<Nickman>this is the include path
09:24<Nickman>-DWITH_FREETYPE -I/usr/include/freetype2
09:24<Nickman>buth in that directory, there is only one map named freetype wich has all the files
09:24<eekee>on my system ft2build.h is at /usr/include/ft2build.h, but I reemember some systems as having all the freetype stuff under /usr/X11R6
09:24<Nickman>should I just get all those files out of there?
09:25<eekee>you could try it
09:26<Nickman>I think I found a misplaced file...
09:26<colle>you shouldn't move those
09:26<eekee>it's not in /usr/local/include/ is it? (Mind you, gcc should be looking there by default, iirc)
09:26<colle>create a symlink instead
09:26<Nickman>yep, now it contineus
09:26<Rubidium>Windows and symlink
09:26<colle>oh, windows
09:26<colle>nevermind
09:26<Rubidium>something they don't go together
09:26<Nickman>it was in /usr/include
09:26<eekee>o ok
09:26<Nickman>I copyd the file into the freetype2 map
09:26<Nickman>now it works
09:27<eekee>^^
09:29<Nickman>now I get linking errors again :(
09:30<boekabart>so, Nickman, you're on windows right
09:30<Nickman>yep
09:30<boekabart>why gcc?
09:31<Nickman>cause I felt like it? :D
09:31<Nickman>http://pastebin.ca/547790 linking errors...
09:31<Eddi|zuHause2>the question is not why gcc, but why cygwin and not mingw?
09:32<Nickman>MSYS wasn't working at all... :(
09:32<Nickman>stopid thing could even install wget :p
09:32<Eddi|zuHause2>i never had a problem with that...
09:32<Nickman>Vista...
09:33<eekee>you had a masochistical moment? Like I did when I decided to scrap suse & install from scratch, using an out of date linux from scratch mini-howto and the source packages on the suse dvd because I didn't have an internet connection?
09:33<Eddi|zuHause2>although i had wget long before i installed mingw...
09:33<Nickman>haha, cool eekee ;)
09:34<eekee>^^'
09:34<Nickman>yeah... Vista is a pain in the ass when it comes to compiling...
09:34<boekabart>Nickman: you DO realize ms has a free C++ IDE for windows?
09:34<eekee>It was fun, but dependancy tracking was hell & eventually nothing supported glibc-2.2 any more
09:35<Nickman>yep, visual studio...
09:35<boekabart>that one
09:35<boekabart>it's free as in free beer! which is the best beer.
09:35<+glx>it's just big to install
09:35<Nickman>I think I even have it installed somewhere :D
09:36<boekabart>double click projects/openttd_vs80.sln to test that theory
09:36<Nickman>yep
09:36<Nickman>I do ;)
09:36<boekabart>get the useful.zip from the site, and go
09:36<+glx>don't forget DXSDK and PlatformSDK :)
09:37<boekabart>well dxsdk
09:37<boekabart>some kind of psdk comes with it usually
09:37<Nickman>:p
09:37<Nickman>I'll try it ;)
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09:38<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r10058 /trunk/src/ (7 files in 3 dirs): -Codechange: give some industry variable sensible names (like not telling "last_mo_production" when it is the production of the current month).
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09:45<Nickman>installing even more microsoft shit...
09:46<eekee>Hey why are you running their OS in the first place?
09:47<Nickman>hehe :d
09:47<eekee>:)
09:47<Nickman>because it's easy...
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09:47<TrueBrain>Rubidium: I will give trac 0.10.4 a try when ever I have the time to review it :p
09:48<Rubidium>Nickman: yeah, we see how "easy" it is
09:48<Nickman>hahaha :D true...
09:48<Nickman>When I do another format, I'll be installing a new Ubuntu again ;)
09:49<geoffk>ew ubuntu slows everything down i find
09:49<geoffk>no idea how its so slow on the desktop it pretty much kills a pIII
09:51<geoffk>i had 2 almost same spec systems pIII's 32mb agp, one debian one ubuntu runnign pretty much same stuff, debian only had 128ram it coped pretty well ubuntu had 256mb ram and was much slower
09:51<@peter1138>it's called "gnome"
09:51<Touqen>gnome is not for the faint of ram
09:51<geoffk>yeah it could be gnome the problem, i use kde myself
09:51<@peter1138>once upon a time, linux desktops were called lightweight...
09:51<@peter1138>that was in the days of twm, rxvt and netscape 3
09:52<geoffk>i run my kde on slack11.0 now its runs far better than anything i seen s far
09:52<Touqen>peter1138: Weren't those all borrowed from unix?
09:52<@peter1138>strange that ;p
09:53<geoffk>worst thing i found o ubuntu was trying to use the wizards on OOo2 its was insanely slow
09:54<geoffk>using base
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09:56<geoffk>i also find ubuntu can be somewhat buggy and cause of some lenghtly problems to debug
09:56<Rubidium>that happens when you're basically playing with Debian Unstable
09:56<geoffk>Rubidium, indeed i much agree
09:57<@peter1138>hmm, 7.04 is pretty stable for me
09:57<geoffk>it has its uses sometimes ubuntu, i had used servers on it which have more uptodate packages but now etch is here i don't need it
09:57<Rubidium>Debian Unstable is pretty stable for me too ;)
09:59<geoffk>i came accross a really odd bug with ubuntu building a xhtml doc creator in php on apache, soemthing was gong strangly wrong when viewing the doctype declearation in page source on a browser, thus failing validation
09:59<geoffk>i tested everything on 2 other dostros, nothign wrong with what i was doing
09:59<Nickman>so, what distro do you guys suggest?
10:00<Rubidium>lfs
10:00<Nickman>lfs?
10:00<@peter1138>i'd stick to debian for servers
10:00<geoffk>debian for simple admin, slackware is my choice
10:00<Nickman>for home PC :p
10:00<@peter1138>ubuntu
10:00<Nickman>k ;)
10:00<@peter1138>cos it's easy peasy
10:00<Nickman>hehe :D
10:00<Nickman>I know
10:00<geoffk>servers i tend to use debian desktop i go with slackware
10:00<Nickman>Suse also...
10:00<Rubidium>linux from scratch is so much more rewarding
10:01<@peter1138>maybe others are these days
10:01<Nickman>All our PC at school have SUSE on it besides XP
10:01<Rubidium>suse <==> microsoft
10:01<@peter1138>Rubidium: tedious, i though
10:01<@peter1138>+t
10:01<@peter1138>sort of like gentoo...
10:02<geoffk>if you install debian etch for servers check out xen, i use it on all my server, i got various ubuntu, debian and slackware OS's running on top of it
10:02<Rubidium>gentoo does all the stuff that would be rewarding of lfs for you
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10:05<geoffk>i build virtual machines with xen on debian for each service im running, such as mail http dns and dhcp
10:05<geoffk>even got one just for openttd
10:05<geoffk>running slackware
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10:22<eekee>hehe
10:23<skidd13>ever tried "ALT linux"? I'd have stayed with it but due the language differences I moved to DEBIAN (sid)
10:23<eekee>Rubidium: Tried Gentoo.. ahh, it's got it's uses, but I much prefer Source Mage
10:25<eekee>I've used suse too, moderately liked it, much better than the red hat 7 I switched from. I'm inclined to think that the bitching against suse is a generic hate of corporations, which I don't agree with. I don't like MS because o the feeling of taking power away from the user, & there's plenty of linux distros that make me feel like that :s
10:26<geoffk>i've only ever really used slack, deb, ubuntu much, i ttried gentoo but its just too much a headache htat for me is unecessary, infact i messed up in the docs installign it somewherre took a wroge path instead of stage 3 install i ended up with a stage 2 this was on a slow system too took hours to install
10:26[~]HMage is a proud debian user
10:26<HMage>...sitting on Windows XP at home :)
10:27<eekee>awwwww
10:27<eekee>hehe
10:27<eekee>I've never tried Debian, I've always had the impression it's a big monster of a distro that will just confuse me
10:27<geoffk>debian is a excellent system, although someimes i find the way it does things a bit unconventional but plus side it has a huge variety of prebuilt packages which can be installed nice and easy
10:27<skidd13>my debian is about 30-40 % faster than the last xp I had on this machine
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10:28<eekee>cool
10:28<HMage>eekee: it's pretty straightforward, and it's scalable.
10:28<eekee>My SMGL's pretty quick, but then I run without a desktop env at all, lol
10:28<eekee>HMage: interesting, ty
10:28<hylje>heh smgl
10:28<eekee>:)
10:28<geoffk>i also find debian to be a well tested stable system possibly one of the best
10:29<eekee>ahh, that i'm not surprised about ^^
10:29<HMage>debian isn't good for desktop though
10:29<HMage>(IMHO)
10:29<hylje>ubunto
10:29<geoffk>i used debian on sarge for a couple of months on the desktop i had no problems with it
10:29<eekee>I am primarily looking for a desktop os, ya. One I can tinker with a bit though
10:29<Noldo>well, debian is not even trying to be goon for desktop
10:30<eekee>hehe
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10:30<valhallasw>woot, there actually is an openttd_family for pywikipedia :D
10:30<Noldo>oops
10:30<HMage>I wrote the message about desktop @ debian as a minor warning.
10:30<hylje>pywikipedia? wut
10:31<valhallasw>yes, the python mediawiki bot
10:31<eekee>'s funny, I say (and am) using an OS primarily for desktop, but the only big app I'll touch with a 10-foot pole is Firefox, & then only because without KDE I don't see much of an alternative
10:31<Nickman>I think visual studio is working :)
10:31<eekee>^^'
10:31<hylje>eekee: iceweasel?
10:32<eekee>hylje: /me casts...
10:32<geoffk>opera is better i fine chews less ram
10:32<skidd13>Icewm + Idesktop + rox is a nice alternative to kde
10:32<eekee>hylje: actually, is it gecko-based?
10:32<hylje>it's rebranded fox
10:32<Noldo>if you need anything non-free in debian you are heading for trouble and for desktop you usually want good drivers for graphics adapter and there's no free ones available
10:32<hylje>the same thing
10:32<HMage>Noldo: that was fixed
10:33<eekee>geoffk: I'm not surprised there, but opera... well it went from having everythign configurable to setting everything in exactly the way that was most awkward for me, lol. Not that FF is any better any more, but....
10:33<Noldo>skidd13: I used icewm on a really old laptop I had
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10:33<eekee>Never liked ice. Reminded me too much of win98, & had nothing that fvwm didn't have double of, lol
10:34<eekee>I use ion3 now. Bit wierd sometimes, but it Works For Me very well, lol
10:34<geoffk>eekee, i personaly dont use opera myself just i noticed it used less ram thasn firefox, i had issues wiht opera runing a flash chat client, the flash app would got blank on me
10:34<eekee>ah okie
10:35<Nickman>ok, it is compiling!
10:35<geoffk>shame really because until i found that problem i was enjoying opera
10:35<Nickman>is there a way to solve the norev000 thingie?
10:35<skidd13>I came from wmaker and moved to icewm, cause of better performance (and nice gui/using the aqua skin).
10:36<eekee>Nickman: Either use svn -r to grab the source, or edit Makefile.*
10:36<Rubidium>not using a non-release version in MSVC
10:36<eekee>I prefer wmaker, I like the docking
10:36<Noldo>HMage: it still takes a bit more than simple software installation and there is no quarantee that it will stay fixed
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10:36<Rubidium>eekee: he's using MSVC, so makefiles don't matter
10:36<eekee>Rubidium: then edit the makefiles I guess *shrug*
10:36<Nickman>yep
10:36<eekee>OH ://///
10:36<eekee>see, this is why I won't touch IDEs with a 10-ft pole :D
10:37<eekee>Don't mind me 6^;
10:37<eekee>^^;
10:37<Nickman>so Rubidium how do I get the release? I selected "release" in the menu bar...
10:37<Rubidium>download the 0.5.2 sources for example from the website
10:37<Rubidium>any trunk version will have norev000 with MSVC
10:37<Nickman>I have latest truck at the moment?
10:37<Nickman>ah
10:37<Nickman>k, np ;)
10:37<Nickman>I'll stick with it :p
10:39<skidd13>Rubidium: Had/Have you time to look over the splitted diffs ? -> http://tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?t=31074&start=41
10:39<Nickman>so, now I can compile some hsizzle ;)
10:39<Nickman>shizzle
10:39<Rubidium>skidd13: not really, can run the binary from here, so I can't test it
10:40<skidd13>ok
10:41<@peter1138>splitted, hehe
10:42<skidd13>he asked for a split so he got one. ;)
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10:43<@peter1138>splitted is not a word, though.
10:43<Zavior>splitteredted
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10:43<Nickman>:p
10:43<Nickman>stop making up words :D
10:44<skidd13>damned false friends
10:45<skidd13>I shoud have asked leo before. ;)
10:49<skidd13>I read STR_CREATE_LAKE due compilling. Anything to do with boekabart?
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11:31<Wolf01>hello
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12:02<Wolf01>5i-_-<esc>
12:03<Eddi|zuHause2>Gesundheit.
12:03<Wolf01>ops... not vim
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12:25<Wolf01>what is the git version detection?
12:27<Eddi|zuHause2>like the svn version detection to write rXXXX in the title?
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12:31<skidd13>svk revision detection would be cool, but atm I don't have a nice way to implement. :(
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12:42<Nickman>what is the easyest way to get a correct revision number in VisualStudio?
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12:43<boekabart>afaik, there is no easy way to do so
12:43<boekabart>a batch file using svnversion is what i use at work
12:43<Nickman>can I use it to?
12:44<Eddi|zuHause2>you could just edit rev.cpp
12:44<Nickman>ah :)
12:44<Eddi|zuHause2>but it is mostly cosmetic
12:45<Nickman>it's to be able to test a patch on a server so...
12:45<Eddi|zuHause2>just that you cannot determine network compatibility
12:45<Eddi|zuHause2>you can join any server with norev000
12:45<Nickman>ah
12:45<Nickman>cool
12:46<Eddi|zuHause2>just you will get desyncs if the version is not correct
12:46<boekabart>better, start you own server with openttd -D
12:52<hylje>http://img.4chan.org/b/src/1181235119035.gif
12:53<Nickman>whats that hylje?
12:53<hylje>it's a roundabout.. i think
12:53<skidd13>wtf! a two way roundabout
12:53<Eddi|zuHause2>it's a "magic roundabout"
12:53<Wolf01>mmm i'll try to do it with ottd
12:55<@peter1138>http://www.robertjohnkaper.com/img/photography/20050918124823.jpg
12:55<hylje>ouch.
12:56<hylje>all that needs is a center roundabout
12:56<@peter1138>http://www.swindonweb.com/life/lifemagi1.jpg
12:57<skidd13>I'd say build a 2 level roundabout with inversed directions is much more efficent.
12:58<@peter1138>way more expensive though
12:58<hylje>:D
12:58<skidd13>Not if you add the insurance costs. ;)
12:58<@peter1138>ctrl-alt-c doesn't work in real-life ;(
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12:59<@peter1138>skidd13: i don't think road designers care about that...
12:59<skidd13>They must be MS users. ;)
13:01<hylje>those magic roundabouts are rather epic
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13:01<hylje>i wish we had those here
13:01<skidd13>I think it's horror to drive through them
13:02<Wolf01>uhm, with 4 is easy...
13:04<Eddi|zuHause2>people already got horror with our normal roundabout here
13:04<hylje>hence they should TOTALLY build a magic roundabout
13:04<hylje>ON A FRIGGING HIGHWAY
13:05<Eddi|zuHause2>but it was totally easy to get through, just pick the right lane before entering, and you automatically get thrown out at the right exit
13:05<Eddi|zuHause2>the problems were only you had to pay attention to the trams that were crossing at 3 points
13:06<Eddi|zuHause2>but they totally rebuilt the place now
13:06<Eddi|zuHause2>the tram is 1 level below the roundabout now
13:06<Eddi|zuHause2>and they put up traffic lights at the entrances
13:06<hylje>:o
13:07<Eddi|zuHause2>you still have to pick the right lane before entering though :)
13:11<Eddi|zuHause2>but to support skidd13's point, they added the additional level because there were lots of accidents
13:12<Eddi|zuHause2>there were hardly any days that weren't like: "trams: 3, cars: 0"
13:12<hylje>http://img.4chan.org/b/src/1181237626186.jpg
13:13<Kjetil>omfg
13:13<@peter1138>that's the same one
13:13<CIA-1>OpenTTD: peter1138 * r10059 /trunk/src/newgrf.cpp: -Fix (r10045): Pretend GRF is still in initialisation state when leaving reservation stage. This fixes action 7/9 tests for grfs that will be active.
13:14<Wolf01>http://wolf01.game-host.org/OTTD_related/mighty_magic_8way_roundabout.png !
13:15<Noldo>Wolf01: what is that?
13:15<@peter1138>that's just silly
13:15<hylje>magic roundabout
13:16<Wolf01>i'm wondering how it might look with diagonal roads
13:16<hylje>a bit more like a ROUNDabout
13:17<Wolf01>in fact, i should named it SQUAREabout
13:17<Wolf01>*should have
13:18<@peter1138>yeah, shame roads are all 90 deg :(
13:18<@Belugas>for now...
13:19<@peter1138>ooh, plans ;)
13:19<@Belugas>me? no... why?
13:19<@Belugas>;)
13:19<Wolf01>yes, i'm looking at it too
13:19<@Belugas>:D
13:20<hylje>just that we could have magic roundabouts
13:21<Wolf01>i thought to kill this old road system and introduce something like rail system, but with more junctions, like: |- or |/ or |\
13:21<hylje>merges!
13:21<Wolf01>in substance a mix of roadpieces with railpieces
13:21<hylje>multilevel junctions!
13:22|-|Wolf01 changed nick to Wolf01|AWAY
13:33<Eddi|zuHause2>cut the tiles in 4, and then allow placing each lane individually :)
13:34|-|Wolf01|AWAY changed nick to Wolf01
13:34<@peter1138>no
13:34<Wolf01>i thought this too
13:35<Wolf01>so you could have 2 diagonal lanes in one tile
13:38<Eddi|zuHause2>hm, i rather meant cut them in 4 diagonally, that way you get rid of the "two trackbits on one tile" issues for rails, too
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13:38<portierbg1>good evening
13:38<Wolf01>hello
13:38<@peter1138>hmm, can i loop mount a harddisk image?
13:39<Wolf01>?
13:39<portierbg1>I was searching around the forum and have a question about the nightly edition of openttd
13:39<Eddi|zuHause2>mount -o loop /what /wher
13:39<Eddi|zuHause2>e
13:39<portierbg1>Can somebody help me with it?
13:39<Eddi|zuHause2>yes, that usually works
13:39<ln->Eddi|zuHause2: but that doesn't work for images of the whole hard disk, does it?
13:40<Eddi|zuHause2>no, you have to fiddle around with the position of the start sector
13:40<Eddi|zuHause2>of the partition
13:40<Eddi|zuHause2>i have seen a tutorial on this one, somewhere
13:40<portierbg1>When I start openttd it says your sample.cat file is missong or corrupt
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13:41<Wolf01>Barry, you need the original dat files
13:41<Wolf01>*data
13:41<Eddi|zuHause2>then take the sample.cat file from your genuine ttd disk :)
13:41<Barry>I have those installed on my usestick
13:41<Barry>usbstick
13:41<Wolf01>so unzip the nightly in that folder
13:41<Barry>I did
13:42<Wolf01>you must overwrite the old files
13:42<Eddi|zuHause2>Barry: which files are in the "data" directory?
13:43<Barry>Eddi : *.grf
13:43<Eddi|zuHause2>there must be files like "trg1r.grf"
13:43<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause2: but it's a harddisc image, with partitions
13:44<Barry>2ccmap.grf
13:45<Eddi|zuHause2>Barry: you need the files from original TTD cd
13:45<Eddi|zuHause2>trg?r.grf and sample.cat
13:45<Wolf01>Barry, if the installed version works with no errors, you must extract the nightly in order to overwrite the installed files to get it work
13:45<Eddi|zuHause2>peter1138: yes, i am searching for the howto i used a while ago
13:46<Eddi|zuHause2>it is definitely possible
13:46<@peter1138>losetup . hmm..
13:49<Eddi|zuHause2>yeah, i think that program was involved... but i don't find the howto anymore
13:50<Barry>Ok Wolf and Eddi I just download TTD again and installed again on my usbstick
13:50<Eddi|zuHause2>losetup -o32256 /dev/loop0 /path/to/c.img
13:51<Eddi|zuHause2>you just need the files from the data dir
13:51<Eddi|zuHause2>copy them into the ottd data dir
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13:52<Eddi|zuHause2>peter1138: where 32256 = 63*512 the probable location of the first partition
13:52<Barry>Strange when I unzip de files there is no data dir
13:52<Barry>but I see the *.grf files in the main dir
13:53<Eddi|zuHause2>whatever...
13:53<Eddi|zuHause2>might be DOS TTD?
13:53<Wolf01>then unzip keeping the folders
13:53<Eddi|zuHause2>or that...
13:53<Barry>no windows version
13:53<Wolf01>or open the zip file and drag&drop the files in their folders manually
13:53<Eddi|zuHause2>doesn't matter... just copy the grf and cat files to the ottd data dir
13:54<Eddi|zuHause2>and the gm files in the gm dir, if you want music
13:54<Eddi|zuHause2>and read the readme!
13:54<Eddi|zuHause2>it doesn't say that without reason :)
13:55<@peter1138>:o
13:55<@peter1138>63*512??
13:56<Barry>I did and it works :-)
13:56<Barry>Now i have to find out about the trams :-0
13:56<Wolf01>grfcrawler.tt-forums.net
13:58<Barry>Is this version of Nightly an unofficial improved version of RC 0.5.2?
13:58<Wolf01>is the official trunk version
13:58<Wolf01>from where 0.x.x releases come out
14:01<Barry>Ok thx Where do I need to install the tram files? In the Data dir?
14:02<Wolf01>i suggest you to make a "newgrf" folder in the data dir
14:02<Eddi|zuHause2>i have my newgrf files in subdirectories of data
14:03<Eddi|zuHause2>then load them from the starting screen, it has a button "newgrf settings"
14:04<Eddi|zuHause2>peter1138: replace 63 with whatever fdisk says the start sector of the partition is
14:04<@peter1138>yeah=
14:04<@peter1138>it said 1
14:04<@peter1138>i was using the wrong units, apparently
14:04<Eddi|zuHause2>gnah my grammar is very german today
14:05<Eddi|zuHause2>512 is the sector size
14:06<Eddi|zuHause2>http://www.osdev.org/wiki/Loopback_Device might help
14:06<ln->remember to reset your altimeters before performing aerobatics; http://youtube.com/watch?v=jaWNj-ZkADY
14:07<@peter1138>waaa
14:07<Eddi|zuHause2>just leave out the points that say "create xyz"
14:07<@peter1138>way faster than dosemu/dosbox (obviously, on the latter)
14:08<Eddi|zuHause2>the only place when loopback might get slow is if the file is fractioned, otherwise it should be the (almost) same speed as direct access
14:09<Barry>Ok thx guys I can now build trams are there any new tram grfs already? I only have the Serbian trams
14:10<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause2: heh, actually i'm playing with qemu
14:10<@peter1138>i had a qemu disk image, but no way of getting stuff on it
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14:10<Eddi|zuHause2>there used to be unfinished versions of the german and the czech tram set out there
14:11<Eddi|zuHause2>but i did not try any yet...
14:11<Eddi|zuHause2>trams are no fun without articulated road vehicles and finsihed sets :)
14:12<XeryusTC>Eddi|zuHause2: we've got git for the former
14:12<@peter1138>woo, fm synth emulation
14:12<@peter1138>hmm, slow :/
14:12<hylje>articulated would be rather silly
14:13<hylje>we'd not be far from trains on road
14:13<XeryusTC>hylje: it's not silly
14:13<@peter1138>uk tram set uses articulation
14:13<Sacro>:o
14:13<Sacro>i want the UKTS
14:13<Eddi|zuHause2>hylje: what exactly do you think trams are?=
14:13<hylje>trains.. ON ROAD!
14:14<Eddi|zuHause2>there are so called "truck trains" in australia
14:14<Barry>truck trains?
14:14<XeryusTC>road trains :P
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14:15<Barry>Never seen we only have real trams in Amsterdam
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14:16<Eddi|zuHause2>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Road_train
14:17<Barry>Better call it mammoettrucks
14:18<Eddi|zuHause2>but i would expect that most vehicle sets will limit it to only 2 articulated parts for a truck
14:19<Eddi|zuHause2>i.e. front part with engine and one trailer without engine
14:20<@Bjarni>they do have a problem with sharp turns... wouldn't go well with the OTTD world
14:21<Eddi|zuHause2>trams usually consist of 3 parts here, sometimes 4
14:22<Eddi|zuHause2>http://www.strassenbahn-halle.de/Fahrzeuge/Fahrzeuge.htm
14:23<Eddi|zuHause2>http://www.strassenbahn-halle.de/Fahrzeuge/MGT-K/Bilder/689.jpg <- one that consists of 4 articulated parts
14:25<@Bjarni>http://www.railway-enjoy.net/images/08.20.Hamaotsu.800.jpg <-- browsing the web, I found this. It's NOT a tram. It's the railline between Otsu and Kyoto and they couldn't fit the tracks the last way to the station, so they put them on the road in a tram like way. However it's so much a railroad that every time it crosses a road intersection, then it activates a railroad crossing system
14:26<Eddi|zuHause2>trams often get priority at signalled crossings here
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14:27<@Bjarni>but I guess it's not with bells and flashing red lights
14:27<Eddi|zuHause2>no
14:28<@Bjarni>giving priority to trams and busses aren't that uncommon
14:28<Eddi|zuHause2>but occasionally with andreas cross
14:28<@Bjarni>andreas cross?
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14:28<Eddi|zuHause2>the same ones that are placed at level crossings
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14:28<@Bjarni>ahh that one
14:30<Eddi|zuHause2>http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bild:Zeichen_201.svg
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14:31<Eddi|zuHause2>btw. even at rail crossings the red flashing lights occasionally get replaced by normal red lights
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14:35<@Bjarni>that sounds stupid
14:36<@Bjarni>however I noticed... I don't like the safety in that decision
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14:37<Eddi|zuHause2>i think a constant red light is better than a flashing red light... some people don't consider the flashing light a real "stop" light like a constant red traffic light
14:38<@Bjarni>are you sure?
14:39<@Bjarni>I have seen cars passing red lights, but never activated railroad crossings
14:39[~]TrueBrain gives Bjarni a cookie for worst argument ever
14:39<Wolf01>i always thought that blinking lights get people's attention
14:39<@Bjarni>me too
14:40<TrueBrain>I only react on the sound
14:40<hylje>trains are scarier than other cars
14:40<Eddi|zuHause2>exactly, people think it is "just" a warning light, not a stop light
14:40<Wolf01>i don't care, if i want to cross.. i cross ;)
14:41<@Bjarni>I will remember that statement if I ever hit anybody
14:41<Wolf01>XD
14:41<TrueBrain>I seen enough people passing closed rail crossings
14:41<TrueBrain>even by car
14:42<Wolf01>i see every day people overtaking me, which i'm stopped at the red traffic light
14:43<@Bjarni>this is one of the reasons why we consider Italy a dangerous country to drive in
14:44<@peter1138>http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?v=2&cp=smws76gxzd87&style=o&lvl=2&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&scene=11774433&encType=1
14:44<@peter1138>^ weird road layout
14:44<Wolf01>oh, another thing you must know, if you want to go in south italy you should keep in mind that: yellow is only a color, green mean "attention" red mean "attention"
14:46<@Bjarni>peter1138: we have a layout kind of like that here. It can't be made differently thought because it's inside a town. Also the cross is controlled with traffic lights connected to the rail crossing
14:48<@peter1138>http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?v=2&cp=sn207xgxyxb7&style=o&lvl=1&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&scene=11771080&encType=1
14:48<@peter1138>'my' local station, heh
14:48<Eddi|zuHause2>"Straßenbahnen auf besonderem Bahnkörper, der nicht innerhalb des Verkehrsraums einer öffentlichen Straße hegt, ist in der Regel durch Aufstellung von Andreaskreuzen der Vorrang zu geben. An solchen Bahnübergängen ist schon bei mäßigem Verkehr auf der querenden Straße oder wenn auf dieser Straße schneller als 50 km/h gefahren wird, die Anbringung einer straßenbahnabhängigen, in der Regel zweifarbigen Lichtzeichenanlage (vgl.
14:48<Eddi|zuHause2>§ 37 Abs. 2 Nr. 3) oder von Schranken zu erwägen.", from the VwV-StVO
14:48<@peter1138>and 'my' local trains...
14:50<Eddi|zuHause2>it says that tram lines that run on separate routes should have yellow/red traffic lights
14:50<Eddi|zuHause2>and these lights should be triggered by approaching trams
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14:52<Eddi|zuHause2>peter1138: site does not work...
14:52<Eddi|zuHause2>(in konqueror...)
14:53<@Bjarni>it works in firefox
14:53<skidd13>Nope
14:54<skidd13>seems not to work in germany
14:55<@Bjarni>it's likely blocked due to fear of political propaganda or something xD
14:55<@peter1138>ah well, it's not that interesting
14:56<Barry>Eddi and Wolf thx for your help. I will beback on this channel. Need to install al my new grfs and so on :-0
14:56<@Bjarni>it's a platform and a few DMU roofs
14:56<Wolf01>and this is our great station: http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=45.778082,13.001794&spn=0.002495,0.005665&t=k&z=18&om=1 :D
14:57<@Bjarni>somehow looking at DMU roofs aren't the most interesting thing to do ;)
14:57<@peter1138>you can see the side too :P
14:57<@Bjarni>with those DMUs, it makes little difference :P
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14:57<@Bjarni>EMUs on the other hand...
14:58<@peter1138>we dream of electricised rail, around here
14:58<@Bjarni>why?
14:58<@peter1138>cos it's all fecking DMUs ;(
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14:58<@peter1138>the line is electrified until half-way from london
14:59<@peter1138>and that is with 4th rail...
14:59<@peter1138>the track is shared with the london underground
14:59<@Bjarni>putting voltage on rails sucks
14:59<Sacro>heh, its all dmus around here too
14:59<Sacro>until you get to the ECML
14:59<@Bjarni>it's a far better solution to put high voltage in overhead catenary
14:59<hylje>fourth rail? :o
14:59<@peter1138>hylje, yes
15:00<@Bjarni>and really high voltage like 25 kV
15:00<Eddi|zuHause2>this is so weird... if i click on that google maps link, it tells me that my browser is not supported, but if i go directly on "maps.google.de", it works
15:00<@peter1138>Bjarni: not very practical in tunnels
15:00<@peter1138>london underground tunnels that is
15:00<hylje>hence underground systems tend to be 3rd rail
15:00<@peter1138>nah, 4th rail's where it's at ;)
15:00<@Bjarni>hylje: they use rails for 0V and then they have two rails for two different voltages (4 in total). Makes sense when you know how to make high power DC engines
15:01<@peter1138>i'm sure they'd use diesel on the underground if it wasn't for the fumes...
15:01<@Bjarni>heh, they used to use steam
15:01<@peter1138>yeah
15:01<Sacro>diesel on the underground?
15:01<@Bjarni>for more than 30 years
15:01<Sacro>hehe
15:01<hylje>steam!
15:01<Sacro>they do have battery trains though
15:02<@peter1138>mind you, the london underground used to come out to where i live now, and further
15:02<@peter1138>back in the '60s i think
15:02<hylje>:o
15:02<@peter1138>that's like 60 miles or so out of london
15:02<@Bjarni>batteries sucks though... It's far from an ideal solution since they take ages to charge and the efficiency could do with an improvement
15:02<hylje>degradation
15:03<@Bjarni><peter1138> Bjarni: not very practical in tunnels <-- this is the UK problem. They made their tunnels way too small. When we needed catenary, the tunnels were big enough to just add it inside
15:04<@peter1138>in an underground system?
15:04<@peter1138>i don't mean normal tunnels :)
15:04<@Bjarni>well, almost. The stuff to hold the wire isn't standard, but some smaller ones
15:04<@peter1138>i see
15:04<hylje>catenary tunnels are hueg
15:04<@Bjarni>I'm talking about the the tunnel below Copenhagen
15:05<@Bjarni>http://www.student.dtu.dk/~s991088/signal.JPEG <-- this tunnel
15:05<Eddi|zuHause2>one of the early lines in southern germany that got electrificated, the dug out 20cm from beneath the rail to be able to add catenary
15:05<@Bjarni>naturally when talking about the catenary, I bring up a picture of a steam train xD
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15:07<@Bjarni>I heard a story about an English line. They replaced the tracks (they were old) and they started the DMUs again. Everything was fine until like a month later or so when a steam train passed though a tunnel on the line. Since they used to fit perfectly, they were in high speed, but the engine was a bit higher than the DMUs and the new track was a bit higher than the old one, so the engine lost both funnel and roof :o
15:08<@Bjarni>talk about how close they used to drive to the ceiling in the tunnel o_O
15:08<@Bjarni>it's actually bad to make so small tunnels for steam. Where should the smoke go?
15:08<Eddi|zuHause2>i have been in london... the underground train was exactly in the shape of the tunnel...
15:09<Eddi|zuHause2>there was no space left
15:10<@peter1138>yeah
15:10<@peter1138>unless it's a cut&shut tunnel
15:10<@peter1138>like the circle line
15:11<@peter1138>then it feels like a regular station but at night
15:11<@Bjarni>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Metropoltian_Railway_steam_locomotive_number_23.jpg <-- steam engine from the London underground
15:11<Eddi|zuHause2>i think it was a train of the black line, whatever that is called
15:12<@peter1138>looks a bit big to fit :p
15:12<@Bjarni>yeah
15:12<@Bjarni>I'm not sure it can fit on all of them
15:12<@peter1138>might've been on the non-underground bit, i suppose
15:12<@Bjarni>I think I have seen a drawing of this type driving underground
15:13<@peter1138>altough it's not very sunken there
15:13<ln->has anyone been to elephant & castle?
15:13<@Bjarni>it has a condenser, indicating that it's build to drive in a location where it should try to generate as little smoke as possible
15:14<Sacro>Eddi|zuHause2: nothern
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15:14<Sacro>*northern
15:15<@peter1138>Bjarni: iirc the metropolitan is one of the cut & shut ones, where it's underground
15:15<@Bjarni>I always forget the colours of the lines in Copenhagen. I remember them by name
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15:15<@peter1138>i could always just look it up on that LUL website
15:16<Sacro>ln-: there's no elephant or castle
15:16<Sacro>i was much disappointed
15:16<@Bjarni>wikipedia claims that it's "Cut and cover"
15:16<@Bjarni>it would only make sense to do that on the one closest to the surface though
15:17<@peter1138>errrr
15:17<@peter1138>that's what i meant
15:17<@peter1138>and yes, it's basically under a road
15:17<Eddi|zuHause2>i have a big problem in remembering names
15:17<Eddi|zuHause2>i have no problem with colours or numbers
15:19<@Bjarni>funny enough the real names aren't used much in Copenhagen. They do use a line letter though (line A, line B, line C... you get the picture)
15:19<@Bjarni>hmm... thinking about it, I think I remember the colours after all
15:19<ln->Sacro: indeed not.
15:20<ln->and the place in general was very pathetic.
15:20<@Bjarni>I have no idea what that elephant castle place is
15:20<@Bjarni>but now I don't want to go there ;)
15:20<hylje>i no the colors of the local metro lines
15:21<ln->Bjarni: it's the terminal station of the brown underground line.
15:21<@Bjarni>ahh
15:22<ln->brown = bakerloo line
15:22<@Bjarni>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Why_London_Underground_is_nicknamed_The_Tube.jpg <--- I see what you mean by tunnel shaped trains
15:22<@Bjarni>you can also see the 4 rail system in this picture
15:23<Eddi|zuHause2>here, the tram lines are 1 to 12, bus lines are 21-44 (not all numbers taken), school bus lines are 50-59, and night lines are 91-99
15:24<Eddi|zuHause2>bus lines that leave the city are usually 300+
15:25<hylje>why does the tube have gaps? :s
15:25<Eddi|zuHause2>yeah, at the station i was the tunnel was even tighter around the train
15:25<ln->why not?
15:27<Sacro>you need to leave room at the side for signals
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15:28<@Bjarni>when the trains move though the tunnels, they push a whole lot of air in front of them. It would actually be easier for them to move if the tunnels were bigger so they could push the air into the sides of the train instead of pushing it in front of them. This makes the wind blow on the platforms when a train is approaching
15:31<ln->yes it does.
15:31<Sacro>no
15:31<ln->yes
15:31<hylje>maybe
15:31<Sacro>they have lots of tunnels to the ground
15:31<Sacro>to shove the air up
15:31<hylje>and down
15:31<hylje>the train creates a vacuum behind it, no? :p
15:32<ln->well clearly the trains do make the wind blow on platforms, regardless of sacro's opinion.
15:32<Sacro>it's not that bad
15:32<Sacro>at least i didn't think so
15:32<ln->Bjarni: have you been there?
15:32<@peter1138>Bjarni: see what i mean about no room for catenary? ;)
15:33<@peter1138>and yes, the trains do make the wind blow
15:33<@peter1138>you don't notice it much cos they normally stop...
15:34<@Belugas>#Hey, Pinky... Here comes the train...
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15:34<@Bjarni><ln-> Bjarni: have you been there? <-- no. I was going to London once, but uni came in the way :s
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15:35<hylje>given air is replaced with water, a train could not enter a tunnel as seen in the Tube
15:35<@peter1138>what?
15:35<@Bjarni><peter1138> Bjarni: see what i mean about no room for catenary? ;) <-- yeah. I know that issue, so the powered rails is an acceptable workaround. However it really sucks for outdoor driving, specially at longer distances. DC catenary sucks at long distance in general, but specially 3rd/4th rail systems because they use such a low voltage
15:36<@peter1138>yeah
15:36<@peter1138>4th rail is +420V and -210V
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15:36<Eddi|zuHause2>hylje: under water, a train can hardly move regardless of tunnel
15:37<hylje>Eddi|zuHause2: that's beside the point
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15:41<Sacro>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?t=32404
15:41<Sacro>now MB is doing it
15:42<Eddi|zuHause2>rofl :p
15:46<@Bjarni>I can't remember that any OTTD person posted anything like that in the patch forums
15:46<Eddi|zuHause2>you could report the post to a moderator for trolling (or similar)
15:47<SpComb>well, you could argue that he's just suggesting alternatives, but it's more likely that there's some kind of trollish intent behind it
15:48<@Bjarni>at one time I did post something in a "which is better?" topic. I just stated that OpenTTD is better because it supports PPC natively and because of that can run without a slow and expensive emulator. I also stated that this isn't a valid argument for windows though
15:48<@peter1138>Bjarni: plenty have
15:48<SpComb>although posting "just use TTD Patch" in the OpenTTD forums like that isn't exactly very sane
15:48<Wolf01>and so is me which complaint about ttdpatch eh?
15:52<@Belugas>answered...
15:52<@Belugas>bitch
15:53<Wolf01>whoa, great work Belugas :O
15:54<@peter1138>Belugas: shit, now your secret work is out in the open ;(
15:54<@Belugas>not really a secret ;)
15:54<@peter1138>btw, you're table breaking, hehe
15:54<Wolf01>how those oil wells work? are you able to build between them?
15:55<SpComb>just rewrite OpenTTD in python already
15:56<Eddi|zuHause2>Wolf01: sure, just like you can build on the cut out tiles of regular forests (they are not in rectangular form)
15:57<Eddi|zuHause2>most other industries aren't either
15:57<Wolf01>i got that kind of forest when i was playing with the station drag&drop removal code :P
15:58<Sacro>SpComb: there is no advantage to rewriting in python
15:58<Wolf01>i would like random shaped forests :P
15:58<XeryusTC>Wolf01: go code a newgrf, im sure that can do it :P
15:58<SpComb>Sacro: you'd get features faster
15:59<@Belugas>Wolf01, they do work, although they are not yet animated
15:59<@Belugas>peter1138, i made it fast and quick, so no fancy layout ;)
15:59<Wolf01>i tried to understand the grf actions, but is something beyond my knowledge
15:59<XeryusTC>they're quite easy
16:00<@Bjarni>only if you understand them
16:00<@Belugas>Eddi|zuHause2 : most of them are available, just didn't put everything there
16:00<@Belugas>Wolf01, you cannot have "random" layout, but yuo can build many different layouts, and they will be chosen randomly
16:00<Eddi|zuHause2>i meant normal industries, not new industries
16:00<@Belugas>so gogo grf
16:01<Sacro>gogo gadget grf?
16:01<@Belugas>ok Eddi|zuHause2
16:01<Eddi|zuHause2>as in "building between industry tiles" is not a new feature
16:02<XeryusTC>there is a industry in toyland that allows you to build under an arc IIRC
16:04<Eddi|zuHause2>you can't exactly blame anyone for not knowing toyland industries very well :p
16:05<@peter1138>heh
16:05<Wolf01>my next game will be in toyland
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16:06<De_Ghost>what's building between industires?
16:07<Wolf01>building between the pieces of the same industry
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16:08<De_Ghost>that makes no sense to me
16:08<De_Ghost>is that english?
16:08<@peter1138>Wolf01: ARGGGGH
16:09<@peter1138>Wolf01: i started up a toyland game. it makes no sense ;(
16:09<Eddi|zuHause2>De_Ghost: [industry tile] [empty tile] [industry tile]
16:10<@peter1138>XeryusTC: which industry? i can't see it :/
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16:10<Eddi|zuHause2>and you should excuse Wolf01's english... he's italian, or stupid (or both...)
16:10<XeryusTC>peter1138: dunno, was very long ago that i've seen it
16:11<@peter1138>the sugar mine is high up but you can't go through it
16:12<@peter1138>hehe, the bubble generator probably contains the most animation ever in ttd :p
16:12<Wolf01>XeryusTC, are you sure it didn't is a little village? all is so similar in toyland :P
16:13<@Belugas>actually, peter1138, i think it is the sugar mine. 96 different animation steps
16:13<@Belugas>but i could be wrong...
16:13<XeryusTC>Wolf01: it is possible
16:14<@Belugas>but agreed, toyland has the most animated industries of all climates
16:14<@peter1138>96! :o
16:14<Wolf01>or maybe 2 close plastic fountains
16:14<@peter1138>hmm, yeah, you might be right
16:17<XeryusTC>i think it was some toy thing :P
16:17<XeryusTC>it had a conveyor belt or sth
16:17<Wolf01>the toy factory
16:18<Wolf01>ok, this little search of industries on toyland made me blind...
16:19<Wolf01>'night
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16:22<@peter1138>you know
16:22<@peter1138>probably the AI will do really well in toyland :p
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16:23<@Bjarni>why would it do well in toyland when it sucks everywhere else?
16:23<@peter1138>exactly
16:23<@Bjarni>I don't like the AI anyway
16:24<@Bjarni>somebody could change it and I wouldn't notice
16:24<@Bjarni>it's always off
16:24<@peter1138>well
16:24<@peter1138>i think someone has :p
16:24<@peter1138>it's certainly crapper than it used to be
16:26<Eddi|zuHause2>apart from building totally crappy layouts, the AI almost never went bankrupt in my TTO games
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16:26<Eddi|zuHause2>but i haven't played against AI in at least 10 years now :p
16:30<@Bjarni>I think we kind of messed with it... I mean we modified commands and stuff and it could have made it even worse
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16:37<stillunknown>Bjarni: some testing was done, the cache patch doesn't seem to cause desyncs or asserts
16:39<Ailure>[23:21] <Bjarni> why would it do well in toyland when it sucks everywhere else?
16:39<Ailure>Chris Sawyer favorite climate was toyland and he tweaked the AI for it?
16:39<Ailure>;P
16:40<stillunknown>Bjarni: at this point it should get merged soon or it'll have to wait a few weeks at least
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16:59<@Bjarni> <stillunknown> Bjarni: at this point it should get merged soon or it'll have to wait a few weeks at least <-- why?
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17:53<kaan>goodevening
17:54<TrueBrain>hi kaan
17:56<kaan>hmmm, maybe i should make rc1 of BuildOTTD today
17:56<kaan>no bugs in a long time
17:56<TrueBrain>good to hear :)
17:57<kaan>Yup, i think ill do it :)
18:01<ln->how was the party?
18:03<TrueBrain>good :)
18:03<kaan>oh, now i know what is missing for 1.0, a proper readme file :P
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18:19<ln->any foreign guests?
18:19<TrueBrain>nopuh
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19:25<kaan>oh darn, sourceforge has some kind of problem refreshing the file releases from the incoming folder
19:25<kaan>Ill try again tomorrow
19:25<kaan>night all
19:25<+glx>kaan: they are automoved :)
19:25<kaan>automoved?
19:26<+glx>you put them in incomming and they are sent in your project
19:26<+glx>then you release them using the interface
19:26<kaan>not untill you go to the special releases page and include the file in a release
19:26<kaan>heh, problem is that the page wont show any file right now
19:27<+glx>that's sf :)
19:27<+glx>you follow the naming rule?
19:28<kaan>I didnt know there was a rule?
19:28<kaan>i called it BuildOTTD-1.0-RC1.exe :P
19:28<+glx>and how is called your project?
19:29<kaan>unix nick is bottd
19:29<kaan>but it shouldnt matter, normally i see all the files in the incoming folder when i do this
19:29<ln->has someone seen patrouille de france irl?
19:30<+glx>maybe when I was younger ln- (but I can't remember)
19:32<kaan>im going, se ya all :)
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---Logclosed Fri Jun 08 00:00:16 2007