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#openttd IRC Logs for 2007-06-09

---Logopened Sat Jun 09 00:00:51 2007
00:51<Phazorx>hmm... why would MU game with 24 wehicles lag?
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03:32<CIA-1>OpenTTD: miham * r10076 /trunk/src/lang/ (7 files): (log message trimmed)
03:32<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update: WebTranslator2 update to 2007-06-09 10:29:27
03:32<CIA-1>OpenTTD: danish - 1 fixed by ThomasA (1)
03:32<CIA-1>OpenTTD: estonian - 1 fixed, 96 changed by kristjans (97)
03:32<CIA-1>OpenTTD: german - 29 fixed by Neonox (29)
03:32<CIA-1>OpenTTD: hungarian - 1 fixed by miham (1)
03:32<CIA-1>OpenTTD: italian - 1 fixed by lorenzodv (1)
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04:13<TrueBrain>Digitalfox: is there to place that comment
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05:04<kaan>hi all
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05:49<stillunknown>Anyone know were the size of a tile is defined?
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05:51<Noldo>size as in the amount of memory it takes to store one?
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05:53<stillunknown>Noldo: actually im looking for the relation between dpi and tiles
05:53<Eddi|zuHause2>map.h:143: TILE_SIZE = 16, ///< Tiles are 16x16 "units" in size
05:53<Eddi|zuHause2>if that is what you search for
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05:54<stillunknown>Actually, i think TILE_PIXELS is what i search
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06:45<stillunknown>Can i assume that the compiler will optimize (x/32) << 8 to x << 3?
06:45<stillunknown>assuming that 32 and 8 are not variables
06:46<Eddi|zuHause>i would expect that, yes
06:47<Eddi|zuHause>use / for any arithmetic calculations, and << only if you do bitshifting
06:49<stillunknown>My problem is this: i was looking at that hash_map patch, some parts made no sense.
06:50<stillunknown>Until i found out that some of the bitshifting included values related to TILE_SIZE and TILE_PIXELS
06:50<skidd13>Is there a function to get the next tile by a DiagDirection param?
06:51<stillunknown>so (y/TILE_SIZE) << HASH_BITS is a lot more clear to me, then y << (HASH_BITS - 4)
06:52<stillunknown>As far as i know it should optimize this.
06:52<stillunknown>Since 16 and 32 are magnitudes of 2.
06:52<Eddi|zuHause>yes, prefer the version that is clear to the reader
06:54<Eddi|zuHause>especially if someone gets the weird idea of changing TILE_SIZE :)
06:54<stillunknown>I just want to get this patch into trunk, because i feel a language barrier is keeping the author from doing it.
06:54<stillunknown>But i do have to understand the patch ;-)
06:55<Eddi|zuHause>replace one language barrier by another :p
06:55<stillunknown>I can see by the code that the guy knows what he is doing, but his english seems poor.
06:55<stillunknown>Like filling interests: yes in his profile.
06:56<stillunknown>"interests: yes"
06:56<Eddi|zuHause>it might be like in austin powers: "sex: yes, please" :p
06:58<stillunknown>You know what i mean.
06:58<stillunknown>It's not just that.
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07:44<Dego>can some1 explain how to do that tihng with truck that they drive only 1 block and u get money?
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07:58<geoffk>is there a way to set autoclean_companies so it only deletes unprotected (without passord set) companies?
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07:59<+glx>autoclean_companies only delete unprotected ones
07:59<geoffk>seems not to be the case for me
08:00<+glx>there's another setting that unprotect protected companies after a certain time
08:00<geoffk>yeah i set in months how long before either get deleted, and then i can either turn on autoclean or turn it off
08:02<geoffk>i have always had a default setting syaing to delete protected i think after 36 months, but unless autoclean_companies is on the they dont get deleted so im confused
08:02<Sacro>i hate autoclean
08:02<geoffk>i tried setting to 0
08:02<geoffk>yeah i dont like it but
08:03<geoffk>people leave the game loads of casdh builds up then always get soem idito come on the company and mess up the map
08:04<geoffk>its happenign every day im finding, i check my servers and someone has tried to flatten all the land, so im planning to enforce a rule of setting passwords of expect to be deleted
08:06<geoffk>i dont see anyother option than to have these companies removed if players dont keep a pass if i can make that happen without loosing protected companies
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08:08<geoffk>if someone is going to destroy companies beyond point of repair and mess up the map they may as well be removed
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08:28<kaan>hello :
08:28<kaan>hello :)
08:29<kaan>dont mind me, im just not good friends with my keyboard today
08:33<Gekkko[PDA]>kaan: im on a pda
08:33<Gekkko[PDA]>much hardr
08:36<stillunknown>Then find yourself a keyboard, preferably one attached to a computer ;-)
08:37<Gekkko[PDA]>i play openttd on here too
08:37<Gekkko[PDA]>palmttd its called.
08:37<+glx>we don't support it :)
08:38<Gekkko[PDA]>i dont need support.
08:39<Eddi|zuHause>go away! :p
08:39<Gekkko[PDA]>i use it on the pc to a lesser extent
08:39<+glx>it's just don't ask us if you find a bug :)
08:40<Gekkko[PDA]>i found a bug, my pda crashes when vi try tyo insdtall the windows exe on my pda >.>
08:41<Gekkko[PDA]>make openttd into an OS haha
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08:59<stillunknown>kaan: ping
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09:36<kaan>stillunknown: pong
09:37<boekabar1>time: 2220000ms
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09:38<stillunknown>kaan: As my biggest supporter i'd like to focus your attention on the OTTD optimisation thread.
09:38<kaan>I saw it, i just didn't take the time to read the code :)
09:39<stillunknown>I've rewritten a small part of it, so i can understand what it does ;-)
09:39<boekabart>stillunknown: rewritten a small part of which one?
09:39<kaan>ill take another look then :P
09:39<stillunknown>the gui.patch
09:39<stillunknown>the first one
09:40<stillunknown>To remove some of the seemingly magic.
09:40<stillunknown>To me at least.
09:42<stillunknown>Mostly confined to the hash generation macros, the ViewportAddVehicles function and some small things in other places
09:45<boekabart>a lot of people are looking at that patch ;)
09:46<stillunknown>boekabart: what makes you think that?
09:46<boekabart>i know that
09:47<boekabart>i've heard a lot of people talking about it now and then
09:47<stillunknown>The point is, that they don't actually fix or accept it ;-)
09:48<stillunknown>And i was a bit confused about some of the things it did, so i "reverse engineered" it.
09:48<boekabart>well there always is the other way to do it, the map bits version
09:49<boekabart>stillunknown: it's pretty clear but the hash table/linkedlist management should be 'taken outside' imho
09:50<stillunknown>Be a little clearer than that, i'm not actually that familiar with hashmaps.
09:50<stillunknown>I just fixed what i couldn't understand.
09:51<@Bjarni>boekabart: how did you manage to print the screenshot on the cake?
09:51<boekabart>pixelling with candy pieces
09:51<boekabart>or, order it at
09:51<boekabart>they just offer picture-on-cake... takes 2 days
09:52<boekabart>they were looking at me in a very weird way when I picked it up from the store
09:52<boekabart>'have fun at whatever party YOU'RE going to'
09:53<boekabart>stillunknown: vehicle position (either in screen coords or game coords) is converted to a hash number (magic), then on that location in a table (much smaller than map of course), it puts a pointer to this vehicle. If there already is one there (possible collision partner), it becomes a linked list
09:53<stillunknown>Basicly only taking the first X bits of the location.
09:54<boekabart>the least significant ones, in his implementaion, yes
09:54<boekabart>but that can be any calculation, doesn't matter very much
09:55<stillunknown>So far i haven't heard a problem.
09:55<boekabart>you're waiting for one?
09:55<stillunknown>stillunknown: it's pretty clear but the hash table/linkedlist management should be 'taken outside' imho
09:55<stillunknown>That implied a problem.
09:55<stillunknown>Or a suggestion.
09:55<boekabart>well, code readability
09:55<boekabart>and less duplication
09:56<stillunknown>I have no idea what you're referring to.
09:56<boekabart>now the same thing is done for 2 hash tables. waste of code
09:56<stillunknown>Maybe a template would be suitable.
09:56<boekabart>it would
09:57<boekabart>without maybe :)
09:58<boekabart>plus i'd use an other hash function, but that's just my gut feeling that it could be faster that way
09:58<boekabart>neh, anyway, i don't currently have time to work on it yet, plus i'm not a dev so it might be a waste of time if other people are still working on it too.
09:59<stillunknown>Is it conceptually different or just different in terms of code?
10:00<boekabart>no, just the hash function
10:00<boekabart>the fn that converts x, y into a position in the table
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10:00<stillunknown>But you would discard different information?
10:01<boekabart>a hash is never about information or discarding it. it's just a matter of a different distribution of items over an array
10:01<boekabart>usually, you want as little collisions as possible. but in this case maybe it's different
10:02<stillunknown>Essentially you're making a linear combination of several smaller maps.
10:02<boekabart>stillunknown: doesn't need to be linear, that's actually what i wouldn't want it to be
10:03<stillunknown>Another solution is to simply take, supertiles and store them, so you always get nearby stuff.
10:04<boekabart>that's also just another hash, using the most significant bits
10:04<boekabart>but that will result in lots of 'collisions' in the table, not something you usually want but in this case it might actually be good
10:05<boekabart>since in 95% of cases, you won't have to scan 2 or 4 hash values but just 1
10:05<boekabart>then again, scanning hash values is not more expensive that going through a longer linked list.
10:06<stillunknown>If you ever think you can explain what you mind, in not so many words, then be my guest.
10:06<boekabart>and your suggestion would make all nearby trains candidates, more to check. bad thing..
10:06<stillunknown>Keeping in mind that i just do programming as a hobby and have no serious background for these kind of things.
10:10<boekabart>i also do it just as a hobby... but also for work :)
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10:12<stillunknown>boekabart: two years ago even a printf confused me, these days i'm a little better, but lacking the theoretical background
10:12<boekabart>printf still confuses me. forever will.
10:13<stillunknown>I meant, C confused me completely.
10:13<kaan>stillunknown: id say that this is the understatement of the year ;)
10:13<boekabart>who in the right state of mind....
10:14<kaan>a little better .... hmmm, id like to get a little better at programming too ;)
10:14<stillunknown>away for dinner
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10:14<kaan>right, good idea, ill go make me some dinner as well
10:15<boekabart>kaan: make me some too! ;0
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10:15<kaan>if you can be here in 40 minutes when im done then please do join me :)
10:16<boekabart>define here
10:16<kaan>nørup, denmark
10:16<boekabart>sorry, my teleporter is out of order
10:17<kaan>#define here
10:20<@Bjarni>Nørup... that's a far away place :p
10:21<boekabart>even for you??
10:21<boekabart>how big can denmark be
10:21<boekabart>(pretty big on a 2048x2048 map, in fact)
10:21<@Bjarni>how big is relative... it's too far to walk
10:22<boekabart>which is relative again
10:22<@Bjarni>it's too far on bike as well
10:22<@Bjarni>the town even lacks rail connection, so it's tricky to get there
10:23<boekabart>wouldn't be your kind of town then, would it?
10:23<@Bjarni>it has been a while since I was in a town without rail connection
10:23<boekabart>does it itch when you are?
10:24<@Bjarni>I see it as opportunity... an unopened market for the taking
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10:26<Sacro>Bjarni: you should take out £100,000 loan and set to work
10:28<@Bjarni>" 55°43'14.47"N, 9°18'12.21"E" <-- copy paste this into google earth and you can see the location in question
10:29<@Bjarni>hey I might even have been in this town
10:29<@Bjarni>passing though towards another town
10:31<@Bjarni>what what?
10:31<hylje>what what what
10:32<boekabart>now what
10:32<@Bjarni>. . .
10:32<@Bjarni>now see what you have done.... you made the channel go off topic >_<
10:32<@Bjarni>so instead of speaking or a village, it's confused
10:32<boekabart>Bjarni: there is an airfield nearby (little to the west) maybe a railservice to there?
10:33<boekabart>billund... isn't legoland there?
10:33<@Bjarni>it is
10:33<@Bjarni>next to the airport
10:33<boekabart>which one, there are 2 airpts
10:33<boekabart>top or bottom?
10:34<hylje>the left one
10:35<@Bjarni> 55°44'7.08"N, 9° 7'41.20"E
10:35<boekabart>the factory to the left of it, is that Lego?
10:36[~]boekabart doesn't remember much, it's been 23 years since he's been there
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10:45<@Bjarni>it has changed a lot in the last few years
10:56[~]Sacro wonders if the Lego factory is made out of Lego
10:58<@Bjarni>not really
10:58<@Bjarni>but they do have a whole lot of lego in there
10:59<kaan>hmmm, i really should go to legoland and ride the lego train soon
10:59<kaan>also id like to see the new shark aquarium
10:59<kaan>legotrain <---- seee, there is rail nearby!
11:00<Sacro>how fast does gravity travel...
11:02<kaan>gravity doesnt travel, it pulls stuff
11:02<strstrep>Gravity travels at the speed of light.
11:03<strstrep>They think.
11:03<strstrep>Either that or it travels instantaneously.
11:03<Sacro>yes, i am stuck as to which
11:04<strstrep>They think it travels at the speed of light because otherwise information could be conveyed faster than light, and that is theoretically impossible.
11:08<kaan>boekabart: dinner is served! did you fix that teleporter?
11:12<@Bjarni>well, it will be either cold or eaten before I can arrive
11:16<kaan>eaten most likely at this rate :)
11:19<kaan>But you are always welcome, we can have a BBQ is many people come
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12:10<Wolf01>a friend of mine is trying to compile ottd (trunk) with ubuntu 7.04, but the binary don't work, when he click on the binary don't happen anything
12:11<Sacro>Wolf01: run it from a console
12:11<Wolf01>seem that also when he overwrite the binary with the nightly one it doesn't work too
12:12<Wolf01>but if he use only the nightly it works
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12:14<Wolf01>Sacro, he say that it doesn't work from the console too
12:14<Sacro>Wolf01: it should at least give an error
12:14<Wolf01>i'm asking for the crash.log
12:16<Wolf01>he just deleted the ottd folder to retry
12:17<Wolf01>but he is sure that the crash.log never existed
12:19<Sacro>but if it didnt crash
12:30<Wolf01>in fact it doesn't start
12:31<+glx>Wolf01: crash.log is only for win32 releases
12:31<Sacro>what? nothing printed to stderr?
12:31<Sacro>openttd -d
12:31<kaan>maybe it needs chmod to executeable
12:31<Sacro>kaan: it would say something surely?
12:31<Wolf01>he tried with root
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12:39<kaan>Sacro: yuo are right
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12:52<@Bjarni><kaan> Sacro: yuo are right <-- don't spread such rumours.... we know it's impossible :P
12:52[~]Sacro slaps Bjarni
12:53[~]hylje redirects the slap to Bjarni
12:53<@Bjarni>he can't argue verbally, so he has to resort to physical violence
12:53<@Bjarni>like an animal
13:04<kaan>i had a wife like that :P
13:05<Touqen>my windows install died :/
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13:06<Touqen>Repair installs won't even finish
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13:31<CIA-1>OpenTTD: bjarni * r10077 /trunk/src/vehicle.cpp:
13:31<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Fix: FS#845 Cloning Trains Longer Than 8 Units Causes Crash
13:31<CIA-1>OpenTTD: The problem was that if adding units to the clone (wagon by wagon) failed, then cloning wouldn't notice it and it made two half trains
13:31<CIA-1>OpenTTD: Now it detects this case and it will make cloning fail. The string with the explanation for the failed move will be used in the error message so the user will know why it failed.
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14:41<Kejhic>hmm, sorry, bad channel...
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16:30<kaan>weee, i just won 2$ in poker
16:30<kaan>i better spend them fast :P
16:30<kaan>i know, ill spend them on poker!
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16:53<kaan>Its done, i have spend the 2 $ :D
16:54<ln->quiz: in what country was this photo taken:
16:55<boekabart>there's BENZIN in it
16:56<boekabart>it's definately a russion wagon
16:56<stillunknown>Am i the only one who thinks those cars have seen better days?
16:56<ln->finland is correct.
16:57<boekabart>the one to the left has NEFT' , nafta?
16:57<boekabart>ln-: the url gave it away
16:59<ln->TARA 27 T it also says
17:01<Phazorx>quiz wagons are russian
17:01<Phazorx>but country is harder
17:01<Phazorx>overhanging caternary is not standard russian
17:02<Phazorx>and gazprom feeds with oil/gaz mosty of europe
17:02<Phazorx>however over pipes, not trains
17:03<Phazorx>if resolution would be better - you could tell by rails
17:04<Phazorx>title on of wagons says that it is it to be returned ASAP into middle of siberia, so i say it is russian :)
17:06<Phazorx>lol i can tell what camera were used :)
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17:07<Phazorx>still not good enough
17:07<Phazorx>you can see secondary rails between wagons
17:08<Phazorx>on wooden base
17:08<Phazorx>russian never put mroe than 3 of nails there out of 4 possible
17:08<Phazorx>alternatively - see ing "ЖД" on rails somewhere would clear it too
17:12<ln->finland is the correct answer, but interesting detective work.
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18:28<Smoovious>hahahaha... :) cool cake. :D
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19:35<jordi>blathijs: hey
19:35<jordi>so, I was wonderign why Ubuntu wasn't picking our Debian package.
19:36<jordi>and a few questions later,
19:39<Sacro>an Ubuntu package
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19:42<jordi>it seems I had to push the right buttons, it's not entirely automatic for non-"main" packages
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19:44<Sacro>Arch has got it in the community repo
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20:24<Smoovious>any games need another player right now? (deciding which to join)
20:25<CIA-1>OpenTTD: belugas * r10078 /trunk/src/ (industry.h industry_cmd.cpp): -Codechange: Centralize all industry counts data and access
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21:39<Phazorx>how do i see full changelog
21:39<Phazorx>one of old bugs is back i wanna find out revision which it was fixed in
22:00<mggrant>could try "svn log <filename>"
22:05<Phazorx>heh dont have svn client here but i guess
22:06<Phazorx>however i want changelog like it apreas on site
22:06<Phazorx>CIA-1 woild give it to me but i need it from 89XX to now i ithnk
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---Logclosed Sun Jun 10 00:00:25 2007