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#openttd IRC Logs for 2007-06-10

---Logopened Sun Jun 10 00:00:25 2007
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01:32<CIA-1>OpenTTD: miham * r10079 /trunk/src/lang/ (bulgarian.txt catalan.txt estonian.txt):
01:32<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update: WebTranslator2 update to 2007-06-10 08:31:40
01:32<CIA-1>OpenTTD: bulgarian - 29 fixed by thetitan (29)
01:32<CIA-1>OpenTTD: catalan - 1 fixed by arnaullv (1)
01:32<CIA-1>OpenTTD: estonian - 159 changed by kristjans (159)
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02:42<stillunknown>KUDr_wrk: do you work on sundays as well?
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02:49<Phazorx>stillunknown: may be you know
02:49<Phazorx>how can i get cghangelog
02:49<Phazorx>full since 8900 ?
02:50<hylje>svn log
02:51<Phazorx>no sn here
02:51<Phazorx>svn
02:51<Phazorx>canyou cat it to me somehow plz hylje ?
02:52<hylje>maybe
02:53<Phazorx>it's for our bug which came back
02:53<Phazorx>i want to track the release where it got fixed
02:53<hylje>8900-HEAD?
02:54<Phazorx>more like tail
02:54<hylje>1-8900?
02:54<Phazorx>i assuem it grows incremeantaly
02:54<Phazorx>8900-now
02:54<hylje>HEAD is now
02:54<Phazorx>8900-tail
02:54<Phazorx>ahh
02:54<Phazorx>8900-head
02:54<Phazorx>sry
02:56<hylje>http://media.hylje.fi/8900-HEAD-changelog.txt
02:57<Noldo>does constructing waypoint cost money?
02:58<stillunknown>Noldo: I think so, why wouldn't it cost money?
02:58<Noldo>I just had an unsure feeling about it
02:59<Phazorx>hylje you remember PS37 bug, reversing trains longer than station?
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03:45<Noldo>I wonder why SubtractMoneyFromAnyPlayer(...) is static
03:49<@Bjarni>maybe because it's only called from one file? :)
03:49<@Bjarni>use static whenever possible. It helps the linker
03:51<Noldo>hmm
03:53<Noldo>it is called from that file yes, but there is a need in one place elsewhere
03:55<@Bjarni>are you sure?
03:55<Noldo>and the need is removed by some nice tricery of temporarily assinging the _current_player global to something else
03:55<@Bjarni>if you need it in another file (in your patch), then consider if you decided on the right design, if you really need it and if so, remove the static if you have to
03:56<Noldo>and then using SubtractMoneyFromPlayer function
03:57<Noldo>well it's just a little thing and has nothing to with the thing I'm really doing
03:57<ln->why wouldn't you too temporarily assign something to _current_player.
03:57<@Bjarni>if it's unrelated, you shouldn't touch it
03:57<@Bjarni>at least not in the same diff
03:59<@Bjarni>actually I think it's a good idea to keep SubtractMoneyFromAnyPlayer() within a well defined area of the code. We wouldn't want a bug in say roadveh_cmd.cpp to take money from the wrong player
03:59<Noldo>true
04:00<@Bjarni>right now roadveh_cmd.cpp works on current player being set when calling commands or by v->owner.... kind of tricky to mess that up
04:00<@Bjarni>I mean to mess it up unintentionally
04:08<@Bjarni>hmm
04:08<@Bjarni>maybe SubtractMoneyFromAnyPlayer() should be a private function in the player struct...
04:09<@Bjarni>but this was coded when it was C only and it works
04:10<@Bjarni>well, at least SubtractMoneyFromAnyPlayer() could do with an enum... it's full of magic numbers
04:10<stillunknown>Bjarni: why was m7 put in a seperate struct?
04:11<@Bjarni>err
04:11<@Bjarni>good question
04:11<@Bjarni>I guess it could be some memory management so it's made like that in order not to waste memory while keeping it at a high speed
04:11<@Bjarni>high speed access, that is
04:12<stillunknown>So, i did remember correctly, was unsure.
04:12<@Bjarni>if I recall correctly, the struct is optimised for 32 bit CPUs... adding m7 would waste a lot of memory because then the struct's total size wouldn't be a multiply of 32 bits
04:13<@Bjarni>you can check this very easily... is the struct a multiply of 4 bytes :)
04:13<stillunknown>it would have become 10 or 12 bytes iirc
04:13<stillunknown>
04:14<@Bjarni>besides it doesn't matter much as the code shouldn't access it directly anyway and it's not that tricky to ensure that the access functions can deal with this correctly
04:14<stillunknown>Bjarni: Do you know why most people here are very wary of community made patches?
04:15<@Bjarni>efficient memory is important if the game should keep working on old hardware or small devices like PSP
04:16<stillunknown>Is that the anser to my last question?
04:16<@Bjarni>no
04:17<@Bjarni>it's really time consuming to read somebody else's diff files and understand them. Usually it doesn't stop there because a fair amount of them are crap, some needs improvements and only a few can be committed unmodified
04:18<stillunknown>Bjarni: have you seen the hashmap improvement patch? (does it stand a chance?)
04:18<@Bjarni>if we just accepted them without the time consuming parts, then our code would become really unstable and much harder to read
04:19<@Bjarni>I didn't read it, but I think it has a good chance of getting added whenever it's completely done. Last time I checked, it still lacked a bit of work
04:19<@Bjarni>but that wasn't yesterday
04:20<stillunknown>I have improved the parts that were unclear to me, but what defines completely done in this case?
04:21<Noldo>It seems I didn't break anything
04:22<Noldo>AIs are crazy on a small map :D
04:23<Noldo>it terraforms so much it looks like the ground is alive
04:25<blathijs>Bjarni: Could you remove the old debian packages from SF?
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04:37<CIA-1>OpenTTD: bjarni * r10080 /trunk/src/players.cpp: -Cleanup: replaced magic numbers in SubtractMoneyFromAnyPlayer() with enum values
04:38<@Bjarni>silly... we used the enum elsewhere, but when reading the flag, it used magic numbers
04:38<@Bjarni>blathijs: sure
04:38<blathijs>Bjarni: Thanks :-)
04:39<@Bjarni>done
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04:56<@Bjarni><Noldo> It seems I didn't break anything <--- I find that hard to believe... everybody breaks something. It's just a matter of time before the obscene new bug is found
04:56<Noldo>that's why there is the 'seems' word
04:57<@Bjarni>like the first version of autoreplace. It crashed in MP if the lag was too big
04:57<@Bjarni>like if a train completely left a depot before the command was executed (it was issued when it entered)
04:58<@Bjarni>so short trains and/or really bad lag crashed the games
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04:58<kaan>morning all
04:58<@Bjarni>naturally I never found that bug when testing locally
04:58<@Bjarni>it's not morning at all
04:58<@Bjarni>:p
04:58[~]Bjarni wrote his first svn entry at 6:18 today
04:59<@Bjarni>not OTTD though :/
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05:03[~]kaan thinks Bjarni needs to get a sence of sleeping the real morning away on sundays
05:04<@Bjarni>me too
05:04<@Bjarni>but I woke up and couldn't sleep
05:04[~]boekabart did, but didn't want to
05:04<@Bjarni>too hot
05:04<boekabart>lost half a day :(
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05:05<kaan>hehe, when you live by the lake and forest its nice and warm, not hot and dreadfull :D
05:06<@Bjarni>the same should be true when living at the sea :s
05:06<@Bjarni>but not today
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05:06<@Bjarni>wb Noldo
05:06<kaan>Bjarni: where do you live?
05:06<Noldo>I decided to ^S my irssi
05:07<@Bjarni>@home
05:07<@Bjarni>:p
05:07<kaan>oh, that famous spot near the sea :P
05:07<@Bjarni>I'm not stupid enough to give away my address in here... people could show up in person to try to make me do stuff to the code
05:08<@Bjarni>I can imagine some people, who might do that :(
05:08<kaan>I was thinking more like what country or sea ;)
05:08<@Bjarni>Denmark
05:08<@Bjarni>you should use /whois and you would have known :p
05:09<kaan>I dont use /whois, its never reiable
05:09<kaan>*reliable
05:09<@Bjarni>btw how can you be in Denmark and NOT be somewhat close to sea... ;)
05:09<@Bjarni>but it's pretty close
05:09<kaan>easy, take a look at nørup ;)
05:09<kaan>islands or mainland? east or west coast?
05:10<@Bjarni>you replaced sea with sø.... error in translation xD
05:10<kaan>hehe
05:10<@Bjarni>well
05:11<@Bjarni>if I decided to cut some trees and stuff, then I would be able to see Sweden from here
05:11<kaan>ok, thats the problem then
05:11<kaan>east coast in calm winds
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05:11<kaan>too much heat builds up :)
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05:13<kaan>ok, all of you guys with a personal vendetta against bjarni, go to sweeden and look for places where you can see denmark ;)
05:13<@Bjarni>shit
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05:14<@Bjarni>that would be like 90% of everybody on the other side >_<
05:14<kaan>And now they know where to look ;)
05:14[~]Bjarni decides to hide in Sweden and watch the people looking for him in Denmark
05:14<kaan>nice plan
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05:16<mikk36>lol
05:16<mikk36>what do you have against Bjarni, kaan ?
05:16<kaan>nothing much, i treat everyone like that :P
05:17<mikk36>so you have a vendetta against me too ?
05:17<@Bjarni>sure
05:17<@Bjarni>we all do
05:17<mikk36>:)
05:17<mikk36>at least i'm not different from you then :P
05:17<@Bjarni>hmm
05:18<mikk36>in that matter :P
05:18<kaan>consider me the great equaliser ;)
05:18<Noldo>what was the svn command to use when conflict has been resolved
05:18<@Bjarni>svn up?
05:18<@Bjarni>svn commit?
05:18<@Bjarni>svn diff?
05:18<@Bjarni>what do you want to do? :)
05:18<ln->svn resolved
05:18<kaan>svn --help
05:19<mikk36>hehe
05:19<Noldo>missed the d
05:20<kaan>oh well
05:20<kaan>i have this idea that i cant seem to get mysefl to start implementing
05:21<kaan>if i bother you guys with it i might do it
05:21<kaan>the idea is to make two classes: DepotBackup and VehicleBackup
05:22<kaan>They would be used when cloning vehicles and upgrading them across tracktypes and so on
05:23<@Bjarni>cloning across tracktypes?
05:23<@Bjarni>wouldn't that be autoreplace across tracktypes?
05:23<@Bjarni>and I wondered about that as well
05:23<@Bjarni>well
05:23<@Bjarni>sort of the samem
05:23<@Bjarni>*same
05:24<kaan>the idea is that you can create a VehicleBackup with a Vehicle as parameter and then it saves all the data, this makes the backup able to return the cost for several operations on that vehicle, like cloning or upgrading replacing and so on
05:24<@Bjarni>it should be two depots next to each other and a train entering one depot would be replaced to the other type in the other depot
05:24<@Bjarni>I just can't get assed to code it :p
05:24<kaan>and if there is money enough it can also execute the wished operation
05:25<kaan>Bjarni: that where the DepotBackup class comes into play
05:26<@Bjarni>have you seen how autoreplace works?
05:26<@Bjarni>it's a vehicle by vehicle action
05:27<kaan>if you use the upgrade tool on a depot then it will make a DepotBackup that in turn will make VehicleBackup of all vehilcles in the depot and then if all things are alright you can destroy the original depot and place a new one and populate it with upgraded vehicles
05:28<kaan>no i havent, and its entirely on purpose
05:28<kaan>im writing a new solution to an old problem ;)
05:28<@Bjarni>so if the train enters a depot, then get the money from selling it (before selling it), then move though it vehicle by vehicle to generate the new train in the other depot and then it was done, move the cargo, sell the old train and repay the price of the old train (you started by borrowing it and now you get the money again by selling, so to avoid double payment)
05:29<@Bjarni>it something goes wrong, then it can just sell the new train and report an error and the old train is untouched
05:29<@Bjarni>if done correctly, then this can be done for free so the money is also untouched
05:30<kaan>the whole idea was to make a "backup" that you can test to see if all things go well before actually doing any changes in the game world
05:30<mikk36>Bjarni, what would u say for the minimum requirements of openttd ?
05:31<@Bjarni>mikk36: depends on the map size and such... I used to run it on a 266 MHz PPC.... worked ok for decent screen sizes and map sizes, but it was more or less maxed out so fast forward gained max 10% speed
05:31<mikk36>with gui
05:31<stillunknown>mikk36: Depends on many factors (i know i'm not Bjarni).
05:31<mikk36>i tried it on 1Ghz Athlon, G400, 1GB ram and it was pure laghell, already at the start screen
05:32<@Bjarni>maybe the game is a bit more demanding today... it has been a while since I used that computer
05:32<kaan>Bjarni: besides, i was thinking of using the same money buffer as the replace function has
05:32<@Bjarni>1 GHz should be enough
05:32<stillunknown>http://bugs.openttd.org/task/853 <-- bug on the hashmap patch
05:32<mikk36>well, i got only maybe max 15fps out of it on the start screen
05:32<stillunknown>mikk36: what OS do you run?
05:33<mikk36>~800x600 or whatever that default screensize
05:33<mikk36>xp pro
05:33<@Bjarni>stillunknown: it's a patch, not a bug... see task type
05:33<@Bjarni>default is 640x480
05:33<mikk36>well, that then
05:33<mikk36>i
05:33<@Bjarni>I used OSX 10.2.8
05:33<stillunknown>But it's still on a bugtracker ;-)
05:33<mikk36>m on 1600x1200 at my work
05:33<mikk36>i'm*
05:33<@Bjarni>stillunknown: it's on our task tracker ;)
05:34<mikk36>editing pdf's relatively easily
05:35<@Bjarni>kaan: how do you plan on making the cache.... I would like to see that
05:35<mikk36>has anyone else testid openttd on a matrox card ?
05:35<mikk36>tested*
05:35<kaan>cashe?
05:35<@Bjarni>I know, but how?
05:35<kaan>what cashe?
05:35<@Bjarni>the vehicle backup thing
05:36<kaan>oh
05:36<stillunknown>mikk36: You have official drivers installed for your card?
05:36<mikk36>ofc
05:36<kaan>linked lists mostly
05:37<@Bjarni>but the vehicles are in the pool system...
05:37<kaan>oh, but im not going anywhere near using the Vehicle class for anything but reading existing vehicles
05:38<@Bjarni>then how will you restore your backup?
05:38<kaan>VehicleBackup will be your basic wagon or whatever
05:39<@Bjarni>how about storing the vehicle struct and then use memcpy to get everything?
05:39<kaan>DepotBackup::CloneVehicle(Vehicle v)
05:39<@Bjarni>you would have to deal with vehicle pointers though if you do that
05:39<kaan>oh, right ;)
05:40[~]Bjarni wonders if this can be applied to autoreplace without making it too slow
05:40<kaan>Im thinking that it will not be any kind of optimised code, but rather made to be easy to understand as these operations dont occour often
05:41<@Bjarni>wrong
05:41<kaan>autoreplace is one usecase this should work on
05:41<@Bjarni>it will happen all the time when somebody switches from one railtype to another
05:41<stillunknown>Striving for optimized code is always, but do keep it understandable.
05:41<kaan>all the time, as in every 5 minutes?
05:42<stillunknown>kaan: Imagine if a lot of features were coded with the same idea.
05:42<@Bjarni>as in "happens in bursts, which can make slow clients in MP drop because they can't keep up"
05:42<kaan>good point
05:43<stillunknown>Also keep in mind it should run on slower platforms.
05:43<kaan>this approach is mostly a memory expensive one rather than cpu expensive
05:43<stillunknown>How memory expensive?
05:43<@Bjarni>if the server is too slow, then it will delay sending "move to next tick" commands
05:44<@Bjarni>if a client is too slow, but the server can keep up, then the client has no way to tell that it's behind the action and it drops
05:44<@Bjarni>because of that we should try to even the load
05:44<@Bjarni>over many ticks if possible
05:44<kaan>that would be possible with this approach
05:45<kaan>you can restrict the making of backups to X per tick
05:45<@Bjarni>this is why autoreplace is nice... it works on VehicleEnterDepot() and odds are that it's limited how many vehicles that enters a depot during the same tick
05:46<stillunknown>mikk36: I hope you find out what your problem is.
05:46<kaan>but that would destroy the transaction idea
05:46<mikk36>i most propably won't
05:46<@Bjarni>yeah
05:46<mikk36>because i'll upgrade my work computer in max 2 weeks
05:47<@Bjarni>this is why two depots next to each other and an action on VehicleEntersDepot() would help... only one train enters the same depot every tick
05:48<@Bjarni>and then you wouldn't need a backup because you just delay selling the old one until the new one is complete
05:48<kaan>one of the ideas in this was to unify the way these kinds of actions is handled
05:50<@Bjarni>using autoreplace for this as well would unify it, but it would need some work on the autoreplace code to make this work
05:50<kaan>maybe its time i look at the existing code
05:50<@Bjarni>autoreplace_cmd.cpp
05:51<kaan>ill have a look :)
05:51<@Bjarni>I moved it to a file of it's own not long ago
05:52<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r10081 /trunk/src/ (ai/default/default.cpp town_cmd.cpp): -Fix [FS851]: towns/AIs didn't build bridges anymore (boekabart).
05:53<@Bjarni>hmm
05:53<@Bjarni>I wonder how the backup idea would work on autoreplace in general
05:53<@Bjarni>I mean if it would be faster or slower
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05:54<kaan>that iompossible to say before i get around to implementing something that works ;)
05:54<@Bjarni>yeah
05:55<@Bjarni>but having a backup command would solve many of my newGRF compatibility issues as I can just presume it works and if it fails, then revert
05:55<kaan>thats one major selling point i guess :)
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05:59<@Bjarni>I wondered about how to make the backup, but just making a linked list (or actually an array of the correct length... we know the needed length when backing up) might do the trick if handled correctly
05:59<@Bjarni>but it would have to do way more than you just mentioned :/
05:59<@Bjarni>or else it will fuck up
06:00<kaan>Id prefer <List> as you can iterate over it
06:00<@Bjarni>since it's a fixed size, you should use vector. It's like an array, but you can iterate over it and extend it if needed
06:00<kaan>yes, there would have to be all kinds os securty checks and bell and whistles
06:01<kaan>ok then, i give in ;)
06:02<kaan>I was thinking that once you have a backup in hand, then you can ask it to simulate varius operations and return the cost, or even if its possible
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06:02<@Bjarni>it would be hard to simulate
06:02<@Bjarni>... or would it
06:03<hylje>transaction-based replacing!
06:03<kaan>not if its the same code that actually does the work when you turn simulate off ;)
06:03<hylje>now with military grade reliability!
06:03<kaan>hylje: yup ;)
06:03<@Bjarni>the problem with the simulation is the pool thing
06:04<kaan>i dont know one bit about the pool, please tell me what the problem is?
06:04<@Bjarni>whenever you buy something, it will end up in the pool
06:04<@Bjarni>when you sell something, it's presumed to be in the pool
06:05<@Bjarni>think of the pool as a giant <List>
06:05<@Bjarni>we just made custom code to handle it to make it faster
06:05<kaan>ok, then waht is the problem, every backup object isnt in the pool
06:05<blathijs>Bjarni: It's more like an array than a List, since every item has an index
06:05<@Bjarni>it contains all vehicles in the game (we use 16 bit VehicleIDs, so it's 64000 player vehicles+ some reserved stuff)
06:05<@Bjarni>blathijs: right.. good point
06:06<@Bjarni>all the functions to build and sell vehicles interacts with the pool and presumes that the vehicle is inside the pool
06:07<kaan>yes ...
06:07<@Bjarni>so mixing an external list with the pool would be bad
06:07<kaan>abstraction is key
06:07<@Bjarni>making a backup would most likely be just that
06:08<@Bjarni>the ability to store the info on the vehicles
06:08<kaan>the backup isnt real in any sence, but a real vehilche can be made with the data in the backup
06:08<Noldo>blueprint?
06:09<kaan>its just a matter of making the conversion at the right time :)
06:09<@Bjarni>the backup would contain the vehicle struct. Restoring the backup would be to request x free slots in the pool (it's returned as an array with a pointer to each free place), so it can be copied back into the pool
06:10<@Bjarni>so it would likely be like: backup, work on original. If it fails, then sell original and request X free places in the pool to restore the vehicle. Fix the pointers as it's likely not in the same location in the pool anymore
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06:11<@Bjarni>also cash flow should be 0, so you have to pay -income from selling the old train
06:11<@Bjarni>doing it any other way would likely cause more problems than it will solve
06:11<kaan>VehicleBackup::ProduceVehicle(VehicleType, TrackType, CargoRefit) soemthing like that, mind the pseudocode ;)
06:12<@Bjarni>if the vehicle struct is stored in the backup, then we store everything you just wrote as arguments
06:13<kaan>well in talking conversion they might differ in the new version
06:13<@Bjarni>so it's just store, and when reverting, it's moving the data back and setting up the next and first pointers
06:13<@Bjarni>and it will be 100% like the old one
06:13<kaan>well, thats drifting a bit far from my original thought now ;)
06:14<@Bjarni>err, every single vehicle pointer in the restored train should be checked
06:14<@Bjarni>dualheaded engines would need to set up a pointer to the other end as well
06:14<@Bjarni><kaan> well, thats drifting a bit far from my original thought now ;) <-- maybe, but it's drifting towards something that might actually work
06:15<kaan>thats one way to look at it :P
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06:15<kaan>anyway, im glad that i seem to have inspired you
06:16<Noldo>I managed to get rid of _yearly_expenses_type
06:16<blathijs>Bjarni: What exactly would a "vehicle backup" be?
06:16<blathijs>a vehicle that doesn't really exist but can be cloned?
06:16<@Bjarni>both yes and no
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06:17<kaan>as i read bjarni its a placeholder for vehicledata that you can use to restore a vehicle
06:18<@Bjarni>instead of doing a whole lot of magic checks to estimate if a replace can take place, then it can copy all the vehicle structs into a vector and then just try to replace. If it fails, then it should sell all the vehicles in question and restore the original based on the data in the vector
06:18<@Bjarni>then the magic would be to ensure that no vehicle pointers messes up and that the total costs ends up as 0
06:19<blathijs>ah, to prevent autoreplace from failing
06:19<@Bjarni>the alternative would be to work on autoreplace whenever a new newGRF feature breaks it
06:19<blathijs>how exactly does NewGRF break autoreplace? Introduce unanticipated costs?
06:20<@Bjarni>well, it will ensure that in the eyes of the user, nothing happened if the replaced failed
06:20<@Bjarni><blathijs> how exactly does NewGRF break autoreplace? Introduce unanticipated costs? <-- no. The last bug I fixed was due to the new engine that had the restriction that it couldn't be joined with the cars
06:21<@Bjarni>and because of that, the user noticed two half trains in the depot, both stopped
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06:21<@Bjarni>if the backup was in place, then it would notice the problem, sell everything, pay back the income from the selling and restore the original vehicle
06:21<@Bjarni>nomatter what went wrong
06:22<blathijs>Can't you simply create the new train first, then if that worked, sell the old train?
06:22<kaan>Its a good solution to that specific problem :)
06:22<Noldo>does vehicle purchase price change when bying and selling vehicles?
06:23<@Bjarni>blathijs: not if I only has to replace a few units of a long train, say like 2 engines in a 10 unit train... the rest should remain the same
06:23<@Bjarni>Noldo: not if the age is 0
06:23<@Bjarni>which it would be in this case
06:24<@Bjarni>blathijs: I tried making a brand new train and a few other ideas like it... they all failed
06:24<kaan>oh, i have to go or ill mis my workout
06:24<kaan>see ya later :)
06:24<@Bjarni>you don't need a workout in order to code
06:24<@Bjarni>:p
06:25<kaan>no, its entirely for the benefit of women
06:25<@Bjarni>ahh
06:25<@Bjarni>then it makes sense
06:25<@Bjarni>sort of
06:25<kaan>;)
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06:26<@Bjarni>Alltaken!
06:26<@Bjarni>long time no see
06:26<@Bjarni>nice to see you again :)
06:26<@Bjarni>hmm
06:26<Alltaken>hi Bjarni
06:27<@Bjarni>Alltaken is in the winter time... maybe it's a decent temperature at your place :)
06:27<blathijs>ey Alltaken
06:27<@Bjarni>unlike here :s
06:28<Noldo>Plaah, my computer can't take the heat :/
06:28<Alltaken>its 8 degrees max today
06:28<Alltaken>nice and cold
06:28<@Bjarni>then I guess you don't have hardware overheating issues right now
06:29<@Bjarni>Noldo: my computer can... except for the TV tuner >_<
06:30<Noldo>the other one that tries it's best to work like a server is not in any problems
06:34<Alltaken>Bjarni: well i have heaters turned on everywhere so yeah :D
06:34<Alltaken>i recently moved down south in my country, so i am prety close to antarctica now. nice and cold. perhaps i will get snow where i live for the first time in my life
06:34<@Bjarni>no snow????
06:35<@Bjarni>that's... inhuman conditions :o
06:36<stillunknown>Noldo: Is your computer undercooled or just poor hardware?
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06:36<Wolf01>hello
06:36<@Bjarni>last winter we had some snowplow trains that derailed due to a whole lot of compressed snow
06:36<@Bjarni>I think two of them derailed
06:37<@Bjarni>btw we lost our last commercially driven steam locomotive when it derailed with a snowplow
06:37<@Bjarni>... in 1979
06:38<@Bjarni>it's actually not that long ago we used steam
06:39<Noldo>stillunknown: undercooled
06:40<stillunknown>Noldo: then i suggest you fix it sometime soon ;-)
06:40<stillunknown>I have a low airflow system, but it's holding up quite well.
06:41<stillunknown>I must admit ambient temperatures have not exceeded 27-28 degrees C yet.
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07:20<@Bjarni>if it's a low noise system people want, then they should use temperature controlled fan speeds
07:20<@Bjarni>this way it will usually not make a lot of noise while they can still keep cool on a hot day
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07:23<geoffk>northbridge and use a system thats not overpowering its not needed for most things
07:23<geoffk>i can get by on PIII works to do anythign i need to
07:24<geoffk>i could use slower but restrictive of what desktop i can run
07:25<geoffk>having said that dont rush out to buy a pIII scram is like gold dust now
07:25<geoffk>sdram*
07:27<geoffk>i've even had problems buying fans to and heatsinks fit on some low end old systems
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07:59<stillunknown>Bjarni: a well designed system doesn't even need high speed fans at all
08:02<stillunknown>Unless ofcource it get's really hot (35 degrees C for example).
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08:08<@peter1138>get's?
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08:19<Noldo>which parts of the code make use of c++ features?
08:20<hylje>yapf
08:26<Rubidium>Noldo: lots of parts
08:27<Noldo>I noticed some :: in vehicle stuff
08:27<Rubidium>and it's not easy to tell you which ones exactly
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08:38<Wolf01>ooook, now that i have my new ipaq with windows mobile 5 i must look for a mobile ottd version
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08:41<Wolf01>how much old is this? http://handheld.softpedia.com/get/Games/Strategy/Open-TTD-for-Pocket-PC-11622.shtml
08:42<Rubidium>pre 0.5.0
08:43<Wolf01>this mean that i must set up a compiler for windows mobile
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08:45<Rubidium>ask them
08:45<Wolf01>brrr the WM5 SDK is 175MB
08:47<Wolf01>maybe i can become the official WM5 port maintainer :D
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08:48<Noldo>:)
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09:04<@Bjarni> <Wolf01> maybe i can become the official WM5 port maintainer :D <-- that would be nice
09:04<@Bjarni>specially if the port is a port and not a hack like the one you just linked to
09:04<@Bjarni>they screwed up the window GUI code to make it work
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09:06<Wolf01>i don't have enough knowledge to change massively the code to make it work, but i'll try to get it work as it is
09:06<@Bjarni>the general problem is that some windows are too big to fit on the screen
09:07<@Bjarni>how big is your monitor?
09:07<@Bjarni>resolution, not inches :)
09:07<Wolf01>mmm
09:07<Wolf01>240x320
09:07<@Bjarni>can't it be turned into 320x240?
09:08<Wolf01>yes, if i rotate the pda
09:08<@Bjarni>anyway OpenTTD is designed with 640x480 in mind so some windows default size is like 400 pixels high/wide
09:08<Wolf01>the camera software works in 320x240, so it shouldn't be a problem
09:09<@Bjarni>well, if you get it working, then we can talk about the window sizes
09:09<@Bjarni>it's the same issue on PSP and it more or less works
09:10<Wolf01>another problem is that i don't have enough buttons
09:10<@Bjarni>hmm
09:10<@Bjarni>how many do you have?
09:10<Wolf01>i have only the directional pad, and some other buttons around
09:10<Wolf01>but i think they are binded to the phone functions
09:11<Wolf01>as i saw that only 2 buttons were customisable
09:11<@Bjarni>that would be enough
09:11<@Bjarni>mouse + button + control
09:11<Wolf01>if you want to look at it, is the ipaq rw6815
09:12<Wolf01>the mouse can be used with the touch screen
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09:13<@Bjarni>then it's easy
09:13<kaan>4,5 tons later ....
09:13<kaan>im feeling a bit used :P
09:13<@Bjarni>the mouse is the touch screen, you have 4 direction keys, that can be used for control and stuff
09:13<@Bjarni>touching the screen is the same as a click
09:14<Kjetil>(tapping should equal a click)
09:15<Phazorx>ping peter1138
09:15<@Bjarni>we have different drivers to translate keyboard input (like different drivers for mic, video, sound and so on). We can just map the direction keys to keys we need, such as shift, control and so on
09:16<@Bjarni>tab = click, hold on the screen = hold down the mouse button
09:18<@Bjarni>kaan: so you saw a lot of bouncing boobs and sweaty asses?
09:18<Wolf01>85% of the SDK :P
09:19<hylje>DS port of ottd D:
09:19<Sacro>boobs?
09:20<Wolf01>we talk of sex and then Sacro popups...
09:20<@Bjarni>yeah
09:21<hylje>highlight
09:21<@Bjarni>I think it highlights on boob, sex and so on
09:21<Sacro>nope
09:21<Sacro>only highlights on Sacro
09:21<Wolf01>yes
09:22<Wolf01>we don't believe it
09:22<@Bjarni>Sacro: I don't trust that... you always show up whenever a word like that is mentioned
09:22<Sacro>Bjarni: i happened to be following the channel
09:23<@Bjarni>idle bastard
09:23<@Bjarni>peeping tom
09:23<Sacro>i idle in a few channels
09:23<@Bjarni>lurker
09:23<@Bjarni>since you always do that, then you have to spend a great deal of time lurking
09:23<hylje>LURK MOAR
09:25<kaan>actually i was almost alone in there
09:25<kaan>a shame really
09:26<kaan>there was nice aiconditioning
09:28<@Bjarni>they are tending some AI?
09:30<Wolf01>doh, i need visual studio
09:31<Wolf01>i hope the express edition is enough
09:32<@Bjarni>it would be nicer if the makefile could do the trick :/
09:34<Wolf01>i hope also that the free disk space is enough!
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09:36<@Bjarni>128 mb... should be overkill
09:36<@Bjarni>but then again you likely want to have other stuff on it as well
09:37<@Bjarni>416 MHz... might have an issue with background saving
09:37<@Bjarni>I mean it could slow down
09:39<hylje>priority!
09:39<@Bjarni>or take more than a month to save
09:39<@Bjarni>on the other hand it shouldn't play big maps
09:40<+glx><Wolf01> i hope the express edition is enough <-- no it isn't
09:40<Wolf01>-_-
09:40<hylje>enjoy your crippled software
09:41<@Bjarni>it should be way easier to get it working on nokia S770 and similar (like S800... I think it's named). They have no screen size issues and uses gcc for compiling
09:42<@Bjarni>I hate when you pay for some hardware and then you have to pay for a compiler as well
09:42<Sacro>there already is a UIQ3 port
09:42<Sacro>but they haven't released source
09:42<@Bjarni>UIQ3?
09:42<Sacro>symbian
09:43<Sacro>http://my-symbian.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30981
09:44<Noldo>it's conceptually in the same level Series40 and 60
09:44<Sacro>i'd like it on my S60
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09:45<Sacro>"Unfortunately language file isn't simple text file and I don't know how to edit it." ← methinks he isn't looking hard enough
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09:46<Wolf01>is still possible to use strgen.exe to compile language files on the fly?
09:46<Sacro>yeah i think so
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09:47<@Bjarni>strgen would make the lng file from a txt file when you execute it with the right arguments... nobody tells you to do it when compiling the OpenTTD binary
09:47<@Bjarni>we scripted it to do so to make it easier, but you can do it later if you like
09:48<Wolf01>i think i need to buy VSstandard from bittorrent
09:49<@Bjarni>I heard that they have nice opening hours... like they are open on normal sundays
09:50<Wolf01>i heard it too
09:52<Wolf01>if it will satisfy me enough i'll go buy the hardware edition, call this a tryout :D
09:52<@Bjarni>I think many people think like that
09:52<@Bjarni>a whole lot of them forget the last part when the "trial period" runs out
09:54<@peter1138>:o
09:54<@peter1138>i ought to try testing it on my pocket pc device again
09:55<@Bjarni>as I said earlier, it's way easier when you can just use GCC and other free to download software
09:55<@Bjarni>you don't even have to think about making demos and so on
09:55<@peter1138>cross compiling to pocketpc was a bitch last time i tried ;)
09:55<Wolf01>i have a lot of original products, and now that i have enough money i can buy other original products (i'm trying to replace the whole pirate section)
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09:57<@Bjarni>what I really hate about commercial products is that I usually lack behind in gaming and when I realise some game would be cool, it's already out of the shops :(
09:57<@Bjarni>I even ended up searching for a game where the company went bankrupt once
09:57<@Bjarni>I guess I should have bought it earlier :p
09:58<@peter1138>what, like TTD?
09:59<Wolf01>i'm still loking for TTDX
09:59<Wolf01>*looking
09:59<Sacro>peter1138: you are wanted in #tycoon
10:00<Wolf01>about games, i wait 'til their price is <=15€, and then i purchase them with the probability of 95%
10:00<@peter1138>netsplit'd :/
10:00<Noldo>any devs who have warm feelings about getting rid of _yearly_expences_type global variable?
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10:03<@peter1138>hmm, is pocketpc little or big endian...
10:03<Wolf01>very little endian :P
10:04<@peter1138>...
10:04<Wolf01>which cpu uses?
10:04<@peter1138>arm
10:04<@Bjarni>windows... sounds like little endian
10:04<@Bjarni>and I think arm is little endian
10:04<hylje>arm can be either
10:05<ln->and leg?
10:05<hylje>head
10:05<Wolf01>yeah... arm can be both
10:06<ln->so can powerpc.
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10:13<@Bjarni>usually PowerPC is big endian though
10:14<@Bjarni>some of them (like PPC405) has a flag to set endianess. If you write little endian code for it, set it to little endian and if you has some big endian code, then toggle that flag
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10:22<Wolf01>Bjarni, i must wait and purchase VS2005 :(
10:25<skidd13>peter1138: I rewrote my patch about the text from the order caption widget. Are you ok with it (cause you're native english and me not ;) )? http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?t=31074&start=41
10:26<Wolf01>ah, Sacro (tits, to get your attention) about my friend who is unable to compile successfuly ottd, he tried with -d but it doesn't say a word...
10:28<Wolf01>with the nightly binary it complaints about language file errors
10:28<Sacro>hmmm
10:28<Sacro>it should return some messages
10:28<Wolf01>but the revision is the same
10:29|-|TinoM| changed nick to TinoM
10:30<Eddi|zuHause3>Wolf01: you have to copy all files from the nightly archive, not just the binary
10:31<Wolf01>the nightly works
10:31<Eddi|zuHause3>Wolf01: are you sure it's not a dedicated build?
10:31<Wolf01>but the compiled version no
10:32<Wolf01>what's the difference about the language files for the dedicated or the ui?
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10:32<Rubidium>none
10:34<Eddi|zuHause3>the language files are the same, but if you start a dedicated build, no window opens, so it appears like it is doing nothing
10:34<Wolf01>nightly: works
10:34<Wolf01>compiled: does not start, no errors
10:34<Wolf01>compiled+nightly binary: does not start
10:35<skidd13>any notices from configure or windows build?
10:35<Rubidium>Wolf01: what are you using?
10:36<+glx>Wolf01: with the corresponding openttd.grf ?
10:36<Rubidium>as compiler
10:36<Wolf01>i think he uses g++
10:36<Wolf01>he is in ubuntu 7.04
10:37<Rubidium>ah, so he doesn't have any of the sdl development files, so it falls back to a dedicated build
10:37<Rubidium>his configure warns about that
10:37<Eddi|zuHause3>yeah, that was my suspicion, too
10:37<Rubidium>(unless he's using non-nightlies)
10:38<Wolf01>warning: no video driver found, building dedicate only
10:38<Eddi|zuHause3>yes
10:38<Wolf01>ok, seem that we found the issue
10:39<@peter1138>yeah, "pebkac" :p
10:39<Sacro>well afaik
10:39<Sacro>openttd is going into multiverse
10:41<Rubidium>what's multiverse?
10:41<Sacro>Rubidium: non free repo for Ubuntu
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10:42<Rubidium>ah Ubuntu a.k.a. rebranded Debian Unstable ;) (openttd is already in Debian Unstable)
10:43<Sacro>yeah
10:44<Wolf01>so how he can solve that issue?
10:45<Rubidium>install the sdl development stuff
10:45<Eddi|zuHause3>Wolf01: install sdl-dev
10:45<Wolf01>ok
10:45<Sacro>heh
10:45<Eddi|zuHause3>might be called slightly differently
10:45<Sacro>Arch always comes with devel
10:46<Wolf01>the nice thing is that configure detects sdl: "libsdl-dev detected"
10:49<stillunknown>I need some advice, if someone posts a patch to openttd, then by default it becomes gpl code, meaning i can do whatever i want, as long as stay within the bounds of the gpl?
10:52<Eddi|zuHause3>err... i'd say yes...
10:53<izhirahider>How can they put openttd into multiverse? Will they include the trg*.grf and sample.cat into the build, or will the game be uplayable out of the box?
10:54<stillunknown>I don't think anyone ships openttd with data files.
10:54<Eddi|zuHause3>izhirahider: the same as with the debian packages... i.e. without datafiles, and a notice that they are needed
10:55<blathijs>That's why openttd is in contrib in debian instead of main
10:55<Eddi|zuHause3>it has been done a hundred times with other games
10:57<Rubidium>stillunknown: legally it might be gpl, but changing a patch (slowest one by the way) slightly and then posting it as "complete" and "your own" on the bugtracker is not ethical without consent of the author
10:57<@Bjarni>kaan (and whoever else is interested): http://devs.openttd.org/~bjarni/vehicle_backup.diff <-- my first draft for backing up and restoring a chain of vehicles (read: train)
10:57<@Bjarni>using vector turned out to be messy... this should work even though I haven't implemented anywhere to use this and due to that, it's untested
10:57<stillunknown>Rubidium: I mentioned i got it from somewhere, i'm not even claiming that.
10:57<@Bjarni>I guess it could do with more comments as well
10:59<Rubidium>stillunknown: even the numbers in that patch are wrong
11:00<Rubidium>and when something is "confusing", it might be that you don't understand what's happening instead of something being "wrong"
11:01<Rubidium>for example, the map is two times as wide as it is high in the GUI (assuming a square map). Maybe that's the reason why it "halved" the resolution along one side
11:02<Rubidium>and when you try to "fix" the confusing stuff, fix it everywhere instead of only a few instances
11:04<@peter1138>ah yes, i was working on the fixed version
11:04<@peter1138>before i was rudely dragged to the mother-in-law's
11:04<stillunknown>who are you talking to?
11:05<@peter1138>myself
11:05<@peter1138>mostly
11:05<Rubidium>oh, stillunknown don't forget that vehicles do not need to be on the same tile to actually collide
11:07<Rubidium>and your hash functions can break very very easily
11:07[~]Rubidium is off to dinner
11:08<stillunknown>At this point i'm considering doing it myself when i have some more time.
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11:34<kaan>Bjarni: That looks very nice and im sure it will solve some of the problems you have with this. Im not big on the ** malloc this and that, but it looks ok to me. Only thing is that i imagined a more OOP approach to the problem, but ill have to get my ass in gear and show you how that would look wont i? ;)
11:35<Wolf01>glx, do you know if the student edition of the VS2005 is compatible with the WM5 SDK?
11:35<+glx>it should, the student version is the full one
11:36<Wolf01>i found an online store which sell it at 62€
11:36<+glx>I think you must proof you are a student :)
11:37<Wolf01>my sister is student
11:37<kaan>oh then its alright isnt it ;)
11:38<kaan>id say that eighter you pirate all of it or pay what is needed. but thats just me, i have a legal XP somewhere but im pirating the one i use :S so much for principles
11:40<Wolf01>me too
11:41<Sacro>mine is legal
11:41<Sacro>MSDNAA ftw
11:42<Wolf01>my computers have a legal copy of XP installed, one is a laptop with home, the other is my gaming machine with professional
11:42<kaan>I used to run a IT consulting business so most of my software is legal. Maybe thats why i had to close shop ;)
11:43<Wolf01>the server... heh... temporarily xp corporate, when i have enough time and will, i will install a linux distribution
11:51<@Bjarni>kaan: if you can write something like this in an OOP way that is just as efficient as this, then I would like to see it :)
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11:53<@Bjarni><kaan> I used to run a IT consulting business so most of my software is legal. Maybe thats why i had to close shop ;) <-- ohh that reminds me of the small company (like one person company or something like that) that called MS for technical support. It turned out that the serial number showed that it was a company license for 10k computers and that the company should deal with issues like that internally
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11:58<kaan>Bjarni: i dont think it will be as efficient, but i think it will have wider usage. It may even contain almost the same code that you made, but there will be more stuff than that :)
11:59<@Bjarni>more stuff?
12:00<kaan>Bjarni: *2: and that is primarily why i dindt have succes as a single person business in IT, you are simply not trusted to know you way around a mouse and it is with good reason. many times it has proven a mistake to take in small independent contractors.
12:00<Sacro>whoo stuf
12:02<Wolf01>i just tried this game: http://sauerbraten.org/ is wonderfull!!
12:02<kaan>yup, more stuff :)
12:02<kaan>when i get around to making it, it will show nicely
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12:03<@Bjarni>why should it be able to do more stuff?
12:03<@Bjarni>it backs up the vehicles
12:03<@Bjarni>isn't that what we want it to do?
12:04<Kjetil>nah
12:04<Kjetil>We want it to calculate the meaning of life
12:05<@Bjarni>but we already know the meaning of life
12:05<+glx>isn't it 42?
12:05<@Bjarni>it is
12:05<Kjetil>nah.. the book was sensored before publishing.. the real number was changed
12:06<@Bjarni>kaan: what do you want it to do on top of backing up the vehicles? I don't think it should do more than it already does
12:06<kaan>Bjarni: yup, its what we want it to do, and more :)
12:07<@Bjarni>what more?
12:07<kaan>well, i mentioned that it would be nice if the backup could be altered and the price of alteration returned, and stuff like that
12:08<kaan>you see, where you see the backup as a way to restore after mangling the original, i see the backup as the place to do the mangling
12:09<@Bjarni>I think altering the backup would cause bugs that can only be solved by hacks, that can cause new bugs
12:10<kaan>thats because you made the bachup a real Vehicle
12:10<kaan>im not going there
12:10<Kjetil>wouldn't it be easier to materialize the backup.. change it and then backup the new vehicle ?
12:10<@Bjarni>that sounds dangerous
12:10<kaan>im making a simuli that can be mangled and if the result is likeable, then it can be instantied in game
12:11<kaan>*instantiated
12:11<@peter1138>bah
12:11<kaan>buh :P
12:11<@peter1138>just make the vehicle pool transactional
12:12<@Bjarni>peter1138: you do that :p
12:12<kaan>hmm, that would be cool as well :)
12:12<kaan>ypu, peter im waiting with my breath withheld :)
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12:13<@peter1138>let's make it use a rdbms first
12:13<kaan>dont you think that its a bit too much overhead?
12:15<kaan>hmmm, i got the cola shakes, i better get to brugsen
12:15<Eddi|zuHause3>'t was a joke :p
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12:52<stillunknown>Is the x, y coordinate system oriented around the center of the map?
12:53<Eddi|zuHause3>the very top tile is (0,0)
12:53<Eddi|zuHause3>use the query tool
12:54<hylje>all that to avoid negative numbers
12:55<Eddi|zuHause3>it would make hardly any difference...
12:55<skidd13>you got the sign bit to use for a coordinate too. ;)
12:56<stillunknown>Strange, guess i'll have to figure out why i'm getting negative coordinates.
12:56<Eddi|zuHause3>skidd13: integers use 2-complement, there is no designated sign bit
12:57<skidd13>depends on what car type you use IIRC
12:57<skidd13>car -> var
12:57<@Bjarni>we use 2-complement as it's the default one in programming
12:59<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause3: is talking about "map" coordinates, stillunknown is talking about "viewport" coordinates I guess
13:00<Eddi|zuHause3>he specifically said "map"
13:00<Rubidium>well, rather "viewport" coordinates translated to "map" coordinates
13:01<Rubidium>and still, there are at least 3 (x,y) coordinate systems in OTTD
13:02<Eddi|zuHause3>yeah, tiles, positions and screen coordinates
13:02<Eddi|zuHause3>where the second is actually more like a (x,y,z) coordinate
13:03<stillunknown>I'm talking about the coordinates that exist in multiples of 32 of the map size
13:03<stillunknown>I mean 16.
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13:03<@peter1138>x,y,z then?
13:03<stillunknown>yes.
13:03<@peter1138>they can be negative for aircraft, iirc
13:03<@peter1138>or ufos, heh
13:04<stillunknown>What sense does a positive coordinate system have, when they can be negative too?
13:04<Rubidium>peter1138: negative for aircraft/ufo shadows to be precise
13:05<Eddi|zuHause3>Rubidium: what if i place an airport near the map edge?
13:06<Rubidium>might be true too, but I've never had any trouble with that, only with aircraft shadows
13:07<Eddi|zuHause3>yeah, i noticed those commit messages :)
13:09<@Bjarni>bbl
13:10<ln->http://amd.co.at/anti/kubica.avi
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13:15<Eddi|zuHause3>ln-: looks evil ;)
13:31<Zr40>any dev around looking for something to do? :)
13:32<ln->that simply doesn't happen.
13:32<Zr40>:(
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13:40<Maedhros>Zr40: you could just ignore ln- and ask anyway ;)
13:40<ln->i was assuming i'm already on everyone's ignore list.
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13:43<Zr40>well... anyone dare to point out the flaws in my patch? :)
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13:44<ln->the standard processing time for ~10-line patches tends to be several months.
13:44<Zr40>it's not a 10-line patch... it's much longer :)
13:45<stillunknown>What is the idea behind the RemapCoord style coordinate system?
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13:46<@peter1138>that gives you screen coordinates
13:47<stillunknown>Very strange coordinates.
13:47<@peter1138>not really
13:48<@peter1138>you get an x and a y. what is strange about that?
13:50<stillunknown>The way it relies on the normal x and y coordinates.
13:50<@peter1138>hmm?
13:50<stillunknown>pt.x = (y - x) * 2;
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13:52<Zr40>when you view the whole map, the (0,0) map coordinates map to the top middle of your viewport
13:52<Zr40>maybe that's got something to do with that
13:52<Luukland>Heya Everyone, I have a small question :P
13:52<Zr40>and a tile is (about? exactly?) twice as wide as it is high
13:53<@peter1138>exactly, yes
13:53<Eddi|zuHause3>stillunknown: it's the transformation from isometric view
13:53<Eddi|zuHause3>x direction is two left and one down
13:53<Luukland>If i transport something (for example goods), and than two year i do not transport these goods from that station, will the rating disappear, or stay at 15%: poor?
13:54<Zr40>Eddi|zuHause3: that looks flipped to me
13:54<@peter1138>stay at 15% poor
13:54<Eddi|zuHause3>so -2*x in the x part and +x in the y part
13:54<Zr40>Eddi|zuHause3: isn't x left to right, not top to bottom?
13:54<Eddi|zuHause3>x(original) is in map positions
13:55<Luukland>peter1138 ok, but then the factory still leaves some goods at my station, every time a grain trucks delivers some grain right?
13:55<Eddi|zuHause3>x direction is /, y direction is \, i believe
13:55<Zr40>in map coordinates, (0,0) is the top corner
13:55<Zr40>rotate that to be the top left corner
13:55<Zr40>if the X direction is /, that becomes | after rotation
13:56<Eddi|zuHause3>Zr40: the problem is, screen coordinates are reversed
13:56<Eddi|zuHause3>in mathmatical diagrams, x rises to right, and y to the top
13:56<Eddi|zuHause3>on screen, x rises to the right, and y to the bottom
13:57<Zr40>in either case, X still rises to the right
13:57<Zr40>not to the bottom
13:57<Eddi|zuHause3>Zr40: take your right hand, thumb = x, index finger = y, middle finger = z
13:58<Eddi|zuHause3>now turn it that thumb points left, index finger points right, middle finger points up
13:58<Eddi|zuHause3>it's all correct
13:58<Zr40>that's not possible
13:59<Zr40>the thumb and index finger point on the same axis
13:59<Eddi|zuHause3>thumb points left towards you, index finger points right towards you
13:59<Eddi|zuHause3>all fingers have to have an angle of 90°
13:59<Luukland>..........................
14:01<Luukland>Someone else who can give my the answer on my question?
14:01<Eddi|zuHause3>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-hand_rule
14:01<Zr40>ratings only disappear when the station disappears
14:02<Zr40>Eddi|zuHause3: in that case, the origin seems positioned wrong
14:02<Eddi|zuHause3>i think ratings disappear after they drop to 0%
14:02<Eddi|zuHause3>Zr40: the origin can be placed completely freely
14:03<Eddi|zuHause3>also the direction is irrelevant
14:03<Eddi|zuHause3>relevant is the order of the fingers
14:03<Luukland>Thx Zr40
14:04<Luukland>But why ratings do not disappear... They are just doing nothing...
14:05<Eddi|zuHause3>you have the coordinate system like this:
14:05<Eddi|zuHause3>. z
14:05<Luukland>I believe in TTDpatch, they did disappear
14:05<Eddi|zuHause3>. |
14:05<Eddi|zuHause3>./ \
14:05<Eddi|zuHause3>x y
14:05<Zr40>Luukland: I haven't used TTDpatch for a long time, but I don't remember them disappearing there either
14:05<Eddi|zuHause3>it applies to the right hand rule, so it is correct
14:06<Luukland>then I am wrong Zr40, but you dont agree with me that it is useless?
14:06<Zr40>Eddi|zuHause3: any xyz coordinate system applies to the left or right hand rule, as you say rotation doesn't matter
14:07<Eddi|zuHause3>actually, by my argumentation, "left-hand" coordinate systems are "wrong"
14:07<Eddi|zuHause3>everything else is free
14:08<Zr40>Eddi|zuHause3: what is wrong about that?
14:08<Eddi|zuHause3>they are reversed...
14:08<Zr40>so would a left-hand user say
14:08<Eddi|zuHause3>it's about permutations of 3 objects
14:09<Eddi|zuHause3>you have permutations with signature 1 and permutations with signature -1
14:09<Eddi|zuHause3>each permutation with signature 1 is invariant wrt left or right hand
14:09<Eddi|zuHause3>permutations with signature -1 switch sides
14:10<Eddi|zuHause3>and in "common" mathmatics, the right hand side was chosen
14:10<Zr40>I've lost you there.
14:10<Eddi|zuHause3>(refer to "mathmatical positive" and "mathmatical negative" direction)
14:11<Eddi|zuHause3>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Even_and_odd_permutations
14:11<Zr40>I agree using the same system is good, but using the right-hand system doesn't make the left-hand system bad
14:12<Eddi|zuHause3>it's completely dual, so you just choose a side, and stick with it
14:13<Zr40>yes, but assume no side has been chosen at all
14:13<Eddi|zuHause3>"good" and "bad", "true" and "false", "left" and "right"... it's all the same
14:13<Zr40>you started with "wrong" :)
14:13<Eddi|zuHause3>yes, the "right" side has been chosen
14:13<Eddi|zuHause3>it's been like that for several hundred years
14:13<Eddi|zuHause3>just believe me :)
14:14<Zr40>I don't question that :)
14:14<Eddi|zuHause3>you do :)
14:14<Zr40>no, I question the left-hand coordinate system being wrong by itself
14:15<Zr40>just like driving on the right or left side of the road
14:15<Zr40>they're incompatible, but either way is valid
14:16<Eddi|zuHause3>it is "valid", it is just not "standard", and by "right"=="standard", "left"=="wrong"
14:16<Zr40>go say that in Britain :)
14:20<Luukland>0_o
14:20<Eddi|zuHause3>i have been saying that in britain, but they were apparently not listening :p
14:20<Luukland>>_<
14:21<Biff>exciting race
14:23<Eddi|zuHause3>anyway, nothing in there is "reverse"... what is reverse are the screen coordinates
14:24<Eddi|zuHause3>btw. one left hand coordinate system is used in physics, because the + and - poles are reversed
14:24<Eddi|zuHause3>current flows from - to +
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14:25<Eddi|zuHause3>so the resulting electromagnetic field is described by the left hand
14:26<Luukland>This is really a stupido discussion....
14:27<Eddi|zuHause3>he started it :)
14:27<Luukland>:P
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14:54<@Bjarni>"maybe it is a bug but don't get me wrong, maybe it is the coding problem". So it it is incorrect code, it's not a bug?
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14:55<hylje>:o
14:55<hylje>feature?
14:55<Eddi|zuHause3>no, it's a feature
14:55<hylje>incorrectly implemented feature!
14:59<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r10082 /trunk/src/network/network_data.cpp: -Fix [FS#846]: another memory leak in the networking code (benc).
14:59<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r10083 /branches/0.5/elrail.c: [0.5] -Fix [FS#836]: "Deactivate Electrified Railways" didn't work.
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15:11<Zr40>so... any hint on FS#104? :)
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15:20<blathijs>OMG, it's complete weather chaos out here
15:20<blathijs>Streaming rain, multiple lightning flashes per second...
15:21<hylje>:o
15:21<hylje>i wish i had that
15:21<Wolf01>here too
15:22<Wolf01>but less rain
15:22<Wolf01>:P
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15:25<Eddi|zuHause3>here it is completely calm
15:25<Wolf01>here no more rain, a little windy, some thunders now
15:26<Eddi|zuHause3>the day was really hot and sunny
15:27<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r10084 /trunk/src/economy.cpp: -Fix [FS#855]: reversing a train when loading at a station crashed.
15:28<@peter1138>heh
15:28<Wolf01>here was muggy weather today, sun but unbreathable air #_#
15:30<hylje>fixed again!
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15:49<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r10085 /trunk/src/main_gui.cpp: -Fix [FS#839]: message that you had given money appeared even when an error occured.
15:49<blathijs>http://nana.student.utwente.nl/~matthijs/Onweer/ <-- pictures and movies of our weather :-)
15:50<@Bjarni><blathijs> Streaming rain, multiple lightning flashes per second... <-- and you didn't disconnect your computer... either you have an UPS or you are living dangerously
15:50<blathijs>I'm working on a laptop
15:50<@Bjarni>that would fit the UPS theory if it's on battery and using a wireless connection
15:52<@Bjarni>hmm, according to this map, the lightning is in an area from Enschede to Apeldoorn and then down to Venray
15:52<@Bjarni>and some of it is in Germany
15:52<@Bjarni>that tells us something about your location
15:52<blathijs>I'm in Enschede :-)
15:52<Eddi|zuHause3>there were bad thunderstorms in south-western germany yesterday
15:53<Eddi|zuHause3>fortunately that is very far away from here :)
15:53<@Bjarni>south western Germany has thunder right now
15:54<@Bjarni>not as bad as the German/Dutch border though
15:55<Eddi|zuHause3>there are practically no clouds over here
15:55<Eddi|zuHause3>[22:36] <hitmansascha> Gewitter erinnert mich immer an den Vorteil von Kabelfernsehn
15:56<Eddi|zuHause3>obviously that guy is affected :)
15:56<@Bjarni>Eddi|zuHause3: well, you are like 150 km from the nearest lightning and like 250 km from serious weather
15:58<@Bjarni>I take that back... now the closest is a bit south of Erfurt
15:58<@Bjarni>live updating is nice :)
15:58<setrodox>earlier today there was thunder here(austria) that loud that the door here start shaking from it
15:58<@Bjarni>wow
15:59<Eddi|zuHause3>erfurt is still over 50km away
15:59<@Bjarni>I know
15:59<@Bjarni>but it's not 150 km anymore
16:00<@Bjarni>I would be a moron not to figure out the distance between Erfurt and Halle when I'm looking at a map with both towns on it xD
16:00<Eddi|zuHause3>depends if the map gives a scale :)
16:02<@Bjarni>it does
16:03<@Bjarni>actually according to this map, the distance is 86 km
16:04<Eddi|zuHause3>which is well over 50km :)
16:04<kaan>night all :)
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16:04<Eddi|zuHause3>i wanted to say 100km first, but thought it was less than that
16:04<@Bjarni>and 33 to Leipzig
16:05<Eddi|zuHause3>is that center to center? i thought that was more like 40km
16:06<Eddi|zuHause3>at least they do a marathon run between both cities
16:10<Eddi|zuHause3>google maps tells me 38km
16:10<Eddi|zuHause3>although that is not air-distance
16:12|-|Jezral changed nick to TinoDidriksen
16:12<@Bjarni>I can't follow roads on this map :)
16:14<Wolf01>'night
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16:15<Eddi|zuHause3>halle-erfurt is 100km by road, and 150km by autobahn
16:16<Biff><3 autobahn <3
16:18<@Bjarni>why?
16:18<@Bjarni>you like traffic jams and reckless driving?
16:19<Biff>no, i dont like traffic jams :)
16:19<Biff>whats your definition of reckless driving?
16:19<Eddi|zuHause3>traffic jams reduced since they finished the 3rd lane on the most occupied routes
16:20<@Bjarni>reckless driving is when you drive so fast that you can't be sure to stop before an unforeseen obstacle, like traffic jams
16:20<Eddi|zuHause3>the autobahn here was a constant construction site for 15 years
16:21<Biff>Bjarni: i agree
16:21<@Bjarni>people really do that
16:21<Biff>but thats pretty fast
16:21<Eddi|zuHause3>you see most obstacles way in advance
16:21<Biff>atleast the part of autobahn i drove on
16:21<Eddi|zuHause3>it's not like there is a sudden 90° curve or something :p
16:22<Biff>hehe
16:22<@Bjarni>not if the road is a bit wet, then you can't be sure to brake safely at the usual distance
16:22<Eddi|zuHause3>the worst situation is when you drive 160+ on the left lane, and there switches a car from the middle/right lane into your lane, going 120
16:22<Biff>well, if its wet you should obviously take that into consideration
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16:22<@Bjarni>unforeseen obstacles can also be other slow driving cars that makes sudden lane changes right in front of you
16:22<Biff>Eddi|zuHause3: that happened a lot when i were there
16:23<Biff>but you often see in advance who will switch out into your lane without watching their mirror.. that happens often here in norway
16:23<Eddi|zuHause3>i had that happen to me, too, fortunately there was another lane left of me, and it was free
16:23[~]Bjarni considers 160 reckless nomatter the conditions
16:23<Biff>just a few cars are equipped with mirrors
16:23<Eddi|zuHause3>the guy was practically "surprise switching"
16:24<Biff>Bjarni: even with a empty road?
16:24<@Bjarni>you can't be sure that it's empty forever
16:24<Biff>you can see ahead
16:26<@Bjarni>also the wheels tend to lose their grip on the road at high speed
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16:27<@Bjarni>not to mention if you hit a small hole or such while braking. The car will stop braking on the wheel in the hole and due to that: turn
16:27<Biff>yes, there are no tires which are made for those kind of speeds
16:27<Eddi|zuHause3>you can be certain that wheels designed for 200km/h also have grip at 200km/h (assuming dry road)
16:27<@Bjarni>a car that turns itself at that speed isn't nice to be in
16:27<Biff>Bjarni: yes, we dont have things like esp, abs etc
16:27<@Bjarni>abs will not help in that case
16:28<Eddi|zuHause3><Biff> just a few cars are equipped with mirrors <- i can't see that happening in germany
16:28<@Bjarni>it would help if it cut braking on the wheel in the other side of the car though
16:28|-|Osai changed nick to Osai^zZz
16:28<Biff>Eddi|zuHause3: that wasnt entierly true, but it seems to be like that :P
16:28<Eddi|zuHause3>:p
16:28<CIA-1>OpenTTD: maedhros * r10086 /trunk/src/rail_gui.cpp: -Codechange: Use more sensible types and functions in GenericPlaceSignals.
16:28<Biff>if one wheel locks up a car with abs will normally not weer to the side
16:29<@Bjarni>abs will prevent the wheel from blocking, but if the problem is that it's in mid air (for a short while, but we are talking high speed), the anti block system will not prevent the lack of braking
16:29<Eddi|zuHause3>that's why they invented esp
16:30<Eddi|zuHause3>it distributes the braking power unevenly over the wheels, to prevent sliding etc.
16:31<Biff>not to mention that people each day drive the autobahn to check the surface
16:33<@Bjarni>whatever you say, I still think it's reckless to drive more than say 100-120 in a car
16:33<Biff>i disagree, and i cant see that you have proven that for all situations
16:34<Eddi|zuHause3>really, the autobahn is built in a way that those "unforseen" situations rarely occure... except for the sudden lane changing, you can't do much about that...
16:34<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r10087 /trunk/src/ (callback_table.cpp main_gui.cpp): -Fix [FS#834]: multiple subsequent "give money" actions could result in duplicate messages that money has been transfered when it only happened once.
16:35<Eddi|zuHause3>and driving 160 is really not that difficult...
16:37<@Bjarni>well, accidents happens and the energy in the movement is v^2, so increased speed will really increase the energy involved in a crash
16:37<@Bjarni>so say esp avoids half of the accidents (I don't think so), then we would still have the other half of the accidents and they are all serious due to the high speed
16:38<Eddi|zuHause3>actually, it is more like (v1-v2)^2
16:39<@Bjarni>so if everybody drives 200 km/h, then v1 and v2 would be equal and accidents wouldn't be serious?
16:39<Eddi|zuHause3>and by far more accidents happen in city traffic (stop&go etc.) than on the autobahn
16:39<@Bjarni>signs, trees and so on all give a v2 = 0
16:39<Rubidium>Bjarni: and people that drive the wrong way?
16:41<@Bjarni>like a week ago some drunk guy drove the wrong way here... or actually near kaan and had a headon collision and killed all 4 people in the car he hit
16:41<Eddi|zuHause3>and that's clearly the fault of the speed, and not of the alcohol, right?
16:42<@Bjarni>well
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16:42<@Bjarni>they might have survived if they didn't go 100+ both of them
16:42<Eddi|zuHause3>sure, and you also believe you have no accidents if you don't leave your house
16:43<Eddi|zuHause3>and yellow cars are less likely to be involved in an accident than red ones
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16:43<@Bjarni>actually it's the other way around
16:43<@Bjarni>red is least likely to be in an accident while black is the most dangerous colour
16:44<Eddi|zuHause3>(which is true, but only because there are far less yellow cars than red cars)
16:44<@peter1138>statistics :D
16:44<@Bjarni>black cars are more likely to be overlooked because they blend into the background more easily
16:45<@Bjarni>but...
16:45<@peter1138>yeah, that's why tanks are black
16:45<@peter1138>err
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16:45<Eddi|zuHause3>actually, i was in an accident a while ago, i was in a red car, and the other one in a white car (it was kind of foggy that day)
16:45<Eddi|zuHause3>i was going 20km/h over a road crossing
16:46<Biff>so, did you see the crash in f1 today?
16:46<@Bjarni>tanks are designed to be at a specific background. Cars aren't designed to blend with a specific background, so black gives the best hiding abilities on multiple backgrounds
16:46<Eddi|zuHause3>Biff: you mean the video that was linked here earlier?
16:46<ln->21:10 < ln-> http://amd.co.at/anti/kubica.avi
16:46<ln->21:15 < Eddi|zuHause3> ln-: looks evil ;)
16:46<Biff>well, i saw it on the tv
16:46<@peter1138>Biff: clearly it wasn't bjarni driving it
16:47<Biff>hehe
16:47<Biff>that was a bad crash, i was sure he was dead
16:48<@Bjarni>see
16:48<Eddi|zuHause3>actually, the safety measurements in f1 are really good, you rarely hear of dead people in f1
16:48<@Bjarni>the road was clear, but he was driving too fast to keep on the road
16:49<@Bjarni>Eddi|zuHause3: well, it looks like 20 km/h was too much for the visibility that day
16:50<@peter1138>sleepy time
16:51<Eddi|zuHause3>i don't think the (minimal) fog was actually the main reason for the crash, but don't go there :)
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16:52<@peter1138>i guess bjarni is one of those annoying people who drives at 75 km/h on the motorways
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16:55<Eddi|zuHause3>we have a lot of (usually older) people here in the villages that only have a tractor driving license, they are allowed to drive normal cars, but only if they are limited to 25km/h
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16:56<Eddi|zuHause3>i always get such a person driving in front of me on the major roads, with no opportunity to overtake...
16:57<ln->what a funny rule.
16:57<Maedhros>good night
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16:58<Eddi|zuHause3>i have the opinion that those cars need to have a yellow flashlight on top of them...
16:58<ln->are they allowed to go to autobahns?
16:58<Eddi|zuHause3>because you can hardly determine that the car is not going 100km/h from distance
16:58<Eddi|zuHause3>no, on the autobahn you cannot enter if your car is not able to go over 60km/h
16:59<ln->but the car is able, only the driver is not. :)
16:59<Eddi|zuHause3>no, the car is not able also, it has an artificial limitation
16:59<ln->d'ogh
17:00<Eddi|zuHause3>well, usually with that limitation it's still possible to go 40-50km/h
17:00<ln->how many gears do they have?
17:00<Eddi|zuHause3>but it's not actually the physical limitation that counts, it's the limitation written in the car
17:01<Eddi|zuHause3>'s papers
17:01<Eddi|zuHause3>i don't know, i have never seen one from the inside
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17:10<XeryusTC>!stats
17:10<_42_>XeryusTC: http://devs.openttd.org/~truelight/stats/openttd.html
17:10<ln->http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giant_Unicorn
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17:26<@Bjarni><peter1138> i guess bjarni is one of those annoying people who drives at 75 km/h on the motorways <-- actually that would be dangerous to drive so much slower than the other cars
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18:13<Eddi|zuHause3>Bjarni: see, (v1-v2) DOES matter :)
18:27<@Bjarni>actually it was more like if the cars drives equally fast, then they will never reach each other. If they drive somewhat close to each other (in speed), then they will close in slowly and leave time for avoidance
18:29<Eddi|zuHause3>see, there is not much difference if the cars drive 105 and 100 or 165 and 160
18:30<Eddi|zuHause3>this works great, as long nobody driving 120 suddenly switches lanes
18:32<@Bjarni>driving is perfectly safe if you take for granted that nobody will ever do anything stupid
18:33<Eddi|zuHause3>as is flying, or internet surfing, or playing skat
18:35<@Bjarni>skat?
18:35<Eddi|zuHause3>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skat_(card_game)
18:35<@Bjarni>however I have never heard that anybody has died due to somebody else gaining too high speed on the internet
18:36<Eddi|zuHause3>no, but clicking on email attachments and getting their bank accounts cleared out
18:38<@Bjarni>are you saying that speed doesn't matter for traffic safety?
18:38<Eddi|zuHause3>no, i'm saying it's not an argument
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18:39<@Bjarni>so traffic safety doesn't matter or ?
18:39<Eddi|zuHause3>at least not as unconditional as you are trying to put it
18:40<Eddi|zuHause3>of course traffic safety matters, but just because an accident "may happen" is not a valid reason to not do something
18:40<Eddi|zuHause3>if you never leave your house, the plane can still crash right onto it
18:40<@Bjarni>so you aren't using your seatbelt
18:40<CIA-1>OpenTTD: belugas * r10088 /trunk/src/ (industry.h newgrf.cpp): -Codechange: A typo and a code-style
18:40<Eddi|zuHause3>you're getting stupid
18:41<@Bjarni>because it's due to "it might happen"
18:41<@Bjarni>I'm trying to follow your logics
18:41<Eddi|zuHause3>it is forbidden to drive without
18:41<Eddi|zuHause3>but it is not forbidden to drive 160km/h
18:42<@Bjarni>it is here
18:43<@Bjarni>if the police catches somebody driving 160, then the driver will have to pass a new driving test nomatter the conditions
18:44<Eddi|zuHause3>that's another point why this discussion is getting nowhere, we're basing it on different preconditions
18:44<@Bjarni>it's a fact that whenever the speed increases, the number of accidents will increase and the severity of the accidents increases as well
18:44<@Bjarni>anyway I need to sleep
18:45<@Bjarni>damn, I have to get up in... way to few hours :(
18:46<@Bjarni>I guess I will have to do with around 5 hours of sleep.... that's not the right way to start a week >_<
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21:39<Smoovious>hmm... how does openttd distinguish 2 different grf's with the same ID#... (UK Renewal Train Set v3.03 and v3.04 have the same ID#)
21:40<+glx>md5 is different
21:41<+glx>but if they have the same grfid, they should be compatible
21:42<Smoovious>hmm... I'm reorganizing my newgrf's so I don't have to keep swapping files for different servers... like, keeping 4 different versions of AV8, for instance...
21:43<Smoovious>so... if 2 GRF's have the same ID#, the MD5 will be compared too, and the one with the matching MD5 will be used if possible, and if no match is found, it'll fall back to the one that matches only the ID#?
21:48<+glx>yes it tries grfid + md5, then grfid
21:49<Smoovious>okee, good 'nuff. :) thnxy
21:50<+glx>but problems can happen if the grf author did a major change in the new version without updating the grfid
21:51[~]Smoovious nods.
21:51<Smoovious>that's ok... worry about that if it comes up...
21:52<Smoovious>just got tired of switching grf files all the time between my release, nightly, miniin, and personal build, installs of openttd... and different games needing different versions, so renaming the filenames to include their version #'s too
21:53<Smoovious>so I don't have to mess around with it anymore
21:53<Smoovious>:)
21:53<Smoovious>like... I got 4 different versions of AV8... and one game in the list I was going to check out, is using a version of AV8 I don't have... :)
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23:53<CIA-1>OpenTTD: maedhros * r10089 /trunk/src/ (newgrf_commons.cpp newgrf_station.cpp):
23:53<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Fix (r10040): Use GetTileZ instead of GetClearGround in GetTerrainType as
23:53<CIA-1>OpenTTD: GetTileZ is valid for any tile type. Also use GetTerrainType for stations.
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---Logclosed Mon Jun 11 00:00:59 2007