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#openttd IRC Logs for 2007-06-14

---Logopened Thu Jun 14 00:00:44 2007
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00:29<Touqen>ubuntu and dist-upgrades don't seem to work too well
00:29<geoffk>scarey stuff i killed a few installs upgrading ubuntu
00:30<Touqen>it just killed my router
00:30<geoffk>something i never do anymore is upgrade
00:30<Touqen>It's fine so long as I don't reboot it.
00:30<Touqen>So, I'm just gonna let it run till this weekend and reinstall.
00:30<geoffk>fresh installs are always best on any OS
00:31<geoffk>i dont trust scripts not to crap all over my configs
00:31<Touqen>I would have just left it alone but it appears the ubuntu breezy aren't there anymore.
00:31<Touqen>breezy repos*
00:32<geoffk>haven't notices, i got a few dapper servers runing
00:34<geoffk>personaly i use my own repositories for everything i use i pull in the dvd iso's and mount them on http
00:37<Touqen>I just got an email dated 3/27/1993!
00:37<geoffk>i do a lot of bootstrpping with ubuntu and debian its very handy
00:37<geoffk>bit old
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02:05<mikk36>Touqen, don't even try to tell me that you had that email address in march '93 :P
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02:18<dihedral>good morning
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02:25<stillunknown>geoffk: Some os'es are not necessarily worse after updates.
02:25<geoffk>no but i dont take any chances ubuntu i find breaks a lot of things
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02:28<stillunknown>geoffk: My father upgraded a while ago, went reasonably well/
02:28<stillunknown>Personally i'm not a ubuntu fan.
02:29<geoffk>yeah i can go fine depends what you have on the system i guess, i neither like or hate it, i tihnk its slow on a desktop though and wouldn't use it for that
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02:32<stillunknown>geoffk: I find a rolling release system preferable.
02:33<hylje>rolling thunder
02:33<geoffk>rolling release? im not familiar with that
02:33<hylje>ubuntu releases 6mo apart
02:34<stillunknown>A rolling release system means stuff gets updated as it becomes available.
02:34<stillunknown>Instead of a huge snapshot every 6 or 12 months.
02:34<geoffk>yeah its good for that its the best thing about it
02:34<geoffk>i use it on some servers i got the LTS 6.06
02:35<hylje>gentoo style
02:35<hylje>but snapshot is easier to support
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02:35<hylje>and doesnt involve bleeding edge
02:35<stillunknown>I find that certain things are left out during the snapshot update.
02:36<stillunknown>Like ubuntu still uses a 1.2.something libcddb
02:36<stillunknown>While 1.3 has been around for months before the release.
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02:37<geoffk>only reason i ever got interested in ubuntu was when breezy was shipped with OOo2 but it was so slow on my systems it was unusable
02:37<stillunknown>hylje: the 1.2.x version has an annoying bug ;-)
02:38<geoffk>before that i hadn't fentured further than slackware bu tnow i employ debian for most my server thing since etch is uptodate with things i need to run
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03:09<Phazorx>is it possibel to apply your caching idea on top of peter's patch ?
03:11<@peter1138>yes it is
03:12<@peter1138>whether it improves anything is another matter...
03:12<Phazorx>peter1138: i got another test case game here
03:12<Phazorx>850 trains on 2048x128
03:12<@peter1138>more test cases? heh
03:13<Phazorx>well this one is inetresting
03:13<Phazorx>same game whioch was crashiung continued
03:13<Phazorx>curerntly with stillunknown's oatch is it close to 100 (but not over it yet)
03:13<Phazorx>with yours 75-80% CPU load
03:13<Phazorx>w/o patches it's a slideshow
03:14<Phazorx>i'd recommend using it for tuning
03:14<@peter1138>ok. what do you want me to do about it? :p
03:14<Phazorx>re - play with hash values and profiling?
03:15<@peter1138>don't fancy doing it again ;(
03:15<Phazorx>ahh... :(
03:15<@peter1138>have you updated recently?
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03:15<Phazorx>not recently
03:15<@peter1138>or are you still using the patch i sent you?
03:15<Phazorx>same patch
03:16<Phazorx>i can compare results with sometihng if you want me to
03:16<@peter1138>compare with current trunk
03:18<Phazorx>it's a bit better, ~65-70% now
03:19<Phazorx>or not
03:20<Phazorx>i'd say it is still slighty betetr, may be not 5% drop but clsoe to it
03:20<Phazorx>i'm surprized that i do not see same difference like in EvsL case cuz structure is close
03:23<Phazorx>express vs local
03:23<Phazorx>one of my weird test cases
03:24<Phazorx>this one shown 1100% improvement with peter's patch
03:25<Phazorx>PS#44 is SML
03:25<hylje>sml? D:
03:25<Phazorx>shift ml
03:25<Phazorx>i'll wiki it after i'm done
03:25<Phazorx>however owen already put something there
03:25<Phazorx>basicaly idea is free lanes for merging trains on ML
03:25<Phazorx>so ML trains shift lanes right wenvever they can
03:26<Phazorx>keeping left lanes open
03:26<Phazorx>by doing so you win on ease of design and expandability
03:27<@peter1138>Phazorx: in trunk, the hash size is larger and the bucket size smaller
03:27<hylje>i has a bucket
03:27<@peter1138>which my profiling showed as better
03:27<@peter1138>increasing hash size always increased performance
03:27<@peter1138>so did decreasing bucket size
03:27<Phazorx>peter1138: is it possible to have it tunable
03:27<Phazorx>per map size
03:28<@peter1138>not really
03:28<@peter1138>the compiler wouldn't be able to optimise it as much
03:28<Phazorx>i see
03:28<Phazorx>well it works much better than before, so thanks a lot
03:49<@peter1138>what cpu have you got?
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04:03<DJGummikuh>What does it need in "Desert" Theme to grow towns?
04:04<DJGummikuh>I'm already doing in-town transportation and deliver food AND water to it, nevertheles it doesn't grow by a single inhabitant
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04:17<Biff>DJGummikuh: passengers, mail, goods?
04:19<SteamWilly>does building over farm-tiles affect the productivity?
04:20<@peter1138>it's a quantum farm
04:21<SteamWilly>you mean 'magic' farm? ;)
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04:54<DJGummikuh>Biff: mail too?
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04:54<DJGummikuh>Biff: right now I'm transporting Water and Food and Passengers
04:55<kaan>hello all
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04:55<all>hello kaan
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04:57<SteamWilly>gummikuh: the wiki says: "Towns located in the desert require food and water to grow" nothing more about this topic
05:00<DJGummikuh>SteamWilly: yes this is what I heard... actually the town already grew by 5 villagers... over 4 years of constant food and water delivery
05:01<Maedhros>5 people over four years sound more like luck than anything else ;)
05:01<Maedhros>how close are your stations to the town?
05:04<DJGummikuh>well... my station is about the size of the town and right next to it...
05:04<DJGummikuh>Maedhros: if oyu have 0.5.2 you can join my server and have a look
05:04<DJGummikuh> is the IP
05:05<DJGummikuh>yay now it is even lower than it was before I started delivering
05:05<DJGummikuh>is my food poisoned or what?
05:11<DJGummikuh>AAAH it finally started growing... seems the problem indeed was not enough food
05:11<DJGummikuh>updated from one food train to 4 :D already doubled the size
05:11<Maedhros>ahh, cool :)
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05:31<Phazorx>peter1138: t-bred 2100+ @ 2G
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05:56<eekee>What sort of vehicle ID should I use when adding a new tram>
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05:57<TrueBrain>Nickman^Away: please disable that script, as it is not wanted here
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05:58[~]Nickman is back from: gone (been away for 23s)
05:58<TrueBrain>Nickman^Away: please disable that script, as it is not wanted here (last time we ask nicely ;))
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05:58<TrueBrain>@kick Nickman^Away
05:58|-|Nickman^Away kicked [#openttd] DorpsGek [TrueBrain]
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05:59<Nickman>sorry for the away script :s
05:59<Nickman>was testing and it send it to all channels
05:59<TrueBrain>np, just make sure it is now disabled ;)
05:59<Nickman>I hope so :D
05:59<TrueBrain>it is annoying in any channel :p
05:59<Nickman>yeah, I know, sorry
06:00<eekee>TrueBrain: ty
06:00<Nickman>it's gone now ;)
06:00<TrueBrain>eekee: I was kind of joking :p
06:01<eekee>o :d
06:02<eekee>The ttdpatch wiki says to use an existing veh. number, but the serbian tram set doesn't seem to
06:06<eekee>ah my mistake
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06:27<Nickman>TrueBrain: isn't the 32bpp implemantation somewhat a hack???
06:28<TrueBrain>you want a kick again? :p
06:28<TrueBrain>I worked my ass of the last few days to get a clean 32bpp implementation
06:28<TrueBrain>and you call it a hack? :)
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06:30<Nickman>I don't know the real implementation, but since it overrides the 8bpp sprites?
06:30<Nickman>I didn't say it sucked... I think it's some great work!
06:31<Nickman>but find it wierd to see a bunch of png files instead of a grf-like file :)
06:31<Nickman>that's all ;)
06:32[~]eekee is finding grf wierd, or at least .nfo O.o
06:33<Nickman>hehe :D
06:33<Nickman>but, on the other hand, this implementation is much simpler :)
06:33<Nickman>maybe you could add support to zip files or so TrueBrain ??
06:33<eekee>Oh & yay for simplicity! Always.
06:34<TrueBrain>Nickman: tar support :p
06:34<Nickman>also good :)
06:34<Kjetil>lha support :P
06:34<Rubidium>Nickman: now it works "simply", all the other things like a container for 32bpp graphics and other (speed) improvements are still under development
06:34<Nickman>k ;)
06:35<Nickman>but the tar support would be nice, since you would be able to place "packs" of png's in the folder insted of seperate PNG's wich looks nicer ;)
06:35<Nickman>but some great stuff there!!
06:37<Nickman>but what was the 32bpp branch doing if you just made it out of nothing? :D
06:38<@peter1138>being stale
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06:38<@peter1138>so got any good shots of 32bpp yet?
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06:41<Nickman>so, to use 32bpp images, you just have to place them in those specific locations and the game will load them automaticly?
06:44<Nickman>cool ;)
06:44<Nickman>so this is clientside only and doesn't affect multiplayer games?
06:46<Nickman>good compatibility with 8bpp only then ;)
06:47<@peter1138>"in the overall aim of the 32bpp project. Such as seasons, more sprites for construction. 4 rotations for viewing. Multiple angles for vehicles, smoother rail/junctions, longer/larger vehicles"
06:47<@peter1138>that is totally *not* the aim of 32bpp...
06:49<Eddi|zuHause2>somthing that i would place in direct relation to 32bpp would be better zoom and transparency
06:51<@peter1138> < transparency ;p
06:51<@peter1138>but yes
06:52<@peter1138>RGBA PNGs are fully supported
06:53<Eddi|zuHause2>a little bit too transparent, maybe :)
06:53<@peter1138>i've changed it, yes
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06:58<TrueBrain>peter1138: I agree: idiot! Who wrote that?
06:59<TrueBrain>Nickman: the aim of 32bpp is that it only overrides 8bpp, and not be a replacement for
06:59<TrueBrain>that way 8bpp and 32bpp clients can play together just perfectly
06:59<@peter1138>TrueBrain: ben_robbins_
07:00<TrueBrain>and tar support is on his way, it just isn't as important as some other things :)
07:00<TrueBrain>peter1138: url?
07:00<@peter1138>it's in the thread you locked
07:00<TrueBrain>never read the replies
07:01<Nickman>TrueBrain I understand ;). it is a great feature none the less ;)
07:01<TrueBrain>Nickman: it sure is, and more of all, it is pretty clean (code-wise :))
07:01<TrueBrain>a lot of additions and shit is possible
07:01<TrueBrain>like opengl :p
07:01<Nickman>aha ;)
07:01<Nickman>sound good ;)
07:02<Nickman>I'll try to take a look at the code when my exams are done
07:02<TrueBrain>and I just need some good 32bpp replacement pngs
07:03<@peter1138>where does glGetProcAddress come from...
07:04<Nickman>we should have 32bpp replacements for all the standard grfs
07:04<Nickman>the TTD GRFs
07:05<Nickman>that would be nice ;)
07:05<Nickman>but the 32bpp graphics development seems to be quite :s. Don't see much progress?
07:06<TrueBrain>mostly because everyone is just doing something
07:06<Eddi|zuHause2>yeah, nobody is organising anything
07:07<TrueBrain>so for that, I am trying to make a website
07:07<TrueBrain>I only am not an artist
07:07<TrueBrain>so I am making up rules I have no idea if they work :p
07:07<Eddi|zuHause2>a "project manager" does not necessary need to have any clue about the project :)
07:08<TrueBrain>true, but it might be useful ;)
07:08<Nickman>I can make webistes... :)
07:09<Nickman>only can't draw shit :p
07:09<TrueBrain>I can do that too :p
07:09<TrueBrain>nah, the website is already kind of done (not even by me)
07:09<Nickman>what do you need for the site then?
07:10<TrueBrain>I am going to list all current grfs (in png, 8bpp), and allow uploading of 32bpp images by users
07:10<TrueBrain>which then are listed
07:10<TrueBrain>maybe even a simple scoring system
07:10<TrueBrain>and some guidelines how they should be made
07:11<TrueBrain>(company color should be dark-blue, stuff like that)
07:11<Nickman>sounds great, finally a central place for the graphics :)
07:11<TrueBrain>and of course that when they upload an image, they give the copyright up to the OpenTTD Developers Team
07:11<TrueBrain>and ones we can use freely
07:12<Nickman>indeed, OpenTTD Team needs to be able to use the grafics without having to ask for permission all the time
07:13<TrueBrain>exactly :) Else it is kind of useless
07:13<TrueBrain>even more as hopefully multiple users will post graphics :)
07:13<eekee>Feels wierd to be learing to make grfs at this time :)
07:14<Nickman>if you need help with the site TrueBrain, I'm willing to help ;). I like webdevelopment :)
07:14<TrueBrain>first I need to get those 8bpp PNGs with all data set as I would like :)
07:15<TrueBrain>(we make use of PNG tEXt chunks to store x_offs and y_offs, of course they need to be in the 8bpp PNGs too)
07:15<Eddi|zuHause2>what about a rule that the images should have some resemlence to the original ones?
07:15<TrueBrain>although OpenTTD can't load them
07:15<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause2: that will be one of the biggest :) One in fact will be bigger: you can not take the original and modify it
07:15<Eddi|zuHause2>yeah, of course
07:15<TrueBrain>but I am really looking for a replacement that looks VERY good, but still has the TT feeling
07:17<Eddi|zuHause2>some of the previously posted (huge) 32bpp images might look nice and all, but they just do not fit into the old graphics
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07:17<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause2: I totally agree
07:17<TrueBrain>also, the replacement images need to be of the same dimension
07:17<TrueBrain>not like we have now, twice or 4 times as big
07:18<TrueBrain>tile-sprites need to be pixel-perfect, else you get weird side-effects
07:18<Eddi|zuHause2>hm, i could live with an additional x2 zoom version
07:18<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause2: the scaling routine can't :)
07:18<eekee>I thought you were going for x2 x2 tiles, heh
07:18<TrueBrain>most likely we will add that you can give pngs per zoom level
07:18<eekee>I could too, lol
07:18<TrueBrain>but runtime scaling is very poor
07:19<eekee>I could live with a pixelly look at x2
07:19<Eddi|zuHause2>yeah, i meant that you have a picture for each zoom level, in particular the current max zoom in, and a future x2 zoom
07:20<TrueBrain>but for now I am already happy if I can get my hands on graphics for the current normal zoom level :)
07:21<Nickman>hehe, would be cool ;)
07:21<Eddi|zuHause2>well, you could start to collect normal and x2 images now, and worry about the implementation of x2 later :)
07:21<Nickman>some of the graphics stated on the wiki look really great (espacially the terrain ones) and have the same look and feel as the original ones
07:21<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause2: then we have to collect all zoom levels immediatly
07:21<TrueBrain>no tnx :)
07:22<TrueBrain>Nickman: yeah, and sadly enough they are unusable as they are all zoom-in 2x
07:22<TrueBrain>which makes them off by 1 pixel in normal zoom
07:22<TrueBrain>causing graphical issues all over the place :(
07:23<Eddi|zuHause2>i really think with current resolutions, a x2 zoom is necessary
07:23<Eddi|zuHause2>also for gui elements
07:23<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause2: a zoom-in 2x will be created, if I can work some bugs, but don't blame the current resolutions :p
07:23<Eddi|zuHause2>(but separately :))
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07:24<TrueBrain>work = work out
07:24<Eddi|zuHause2>well, tto was designed for 640x480, meanwhile a lot of people have 1600x1200 or more resolution
07:24<Nickman>can't you just conatact the people who made those new grf to make some new renders TrueBrain?
07:24<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause2: so? :) I can still read most things just fine ;)
07:25<TrueBrain>Nickman: possible, we will see if we can get them motivated
07:25<TrueBrain>sadly enough Alltaken has a real job nowedays :p
07:25<Eddi|zuHause2>well, but i can't if i sit 3m from the monitor :)
07:25<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause2: so what you are talking about is a luxary problem
07:25<TrueBrain>you could also just switch your resolution back to a normal size
07:25<TrueBrain>solves your problem ;)
07:25<Eddi|zuHause2>ttd is a luxury problem in itself :)
07:26<Nickman>yeah Alltaken made some nice graphics
07:31<tokai|ni>the problem with those new graphics was the silly blender requirement:)
07:31<tokai|ni>else i would have done a bunch
07:32<TrueBrain>what blender requirement?
07:32[~]eekee has a wierd action 4 issue. It's renaming the wrong vehicle
07:32<tokai|ni>TrueBrain: the wiki says (or said) so.
07:32<TrueBrain>hmm, can you find it for me?
07:33<tokai|ni>seems its slighly adjusted:
07:34<tokai|ni>TrueBrain: the problem is when u texture etc. your object in application X and then export it to blender an rerender it there it might come out completly different
07:34<tokai|ni>a more general definition of light look and color schemes would have been better imho.. more freedom for the individual gfx artist
07:35<TrueBrain>that is what I would suggest
07:35<TrueBrain> <- didn't know it was really based on real buildings
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07:37<Nickman>wrong button :D
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07:37<eekee>Yeah me either, although I should have. The TTD rendition of the livingstone tower looks like any number of blocks of flats in Britain
07:38<tokai|ni>TrueBrain: i even have an idea to come to many free graphics in 2 weeks. dunno if its doable.. needs some managing. on they do weekly/biweekly modelling competitions. One could organize a challenge to make graphics for OpenTTD. I could ask the guys if there is interest (but it needs lightsetup etc. defined (application unrelated)).
07:39<TrueBrain>tokai|ni: I don't have any problems with that, we have a few requirements for the graphics, and the rest is free for all
07:39<eekee>I think there's some buildings like the Buchanan Street houses down south here in Worthing, & the library here doesn't look any less strange than that Glasgow bank.
07:42<tokai|ni>TrueBrain: i'll ask them then.
07:42<TrueBrain>tokai|ni: please do :) We do need to finialize a tool to make the pngs with the x_offs and y_offs thingies
07:44<eekee>Hm, I'm stuck on my refittable tram project. Action 4 is renaming the wrong vehicle, and the action 0 I copied isn't making sense when I refer to the wiki
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07:47<Maedhros>eekee: can you put it up somewhere so we can have a look?
07:47<eekee>Maedhros: sure, one sec
07:48<eekee>apologies for the syntax highlighting
07:50[~]Maedhros looks
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07:52<eekee>the action 0 is copied from srvttw.nfo with just the vehicle id changed to 50
07:54<Maedhros>ok, as for the action 4, your action 3 is defining vehicle id 0x50, but you're renaming vehicle 0x01
07:54<eekee>the action 4 rename is being applied to the original vehicle in srvttw.grf, which has vehicle ID 40. Mine is aparently a Powernaught Fizzy Drink Truck - the original name for road veh. 50
07:54<@peter1138>Maedhros: not quite
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07:55<@peter1138>its renaming vehicle 64 ... @
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07:55<Maedhros>hmm, ok
07:55<eekee>oh,those 40 & 50 are in hex, sorry
07:56<@peter1138>so the 01 "@ should be 01 50 "
07:56<eekee>ah lol ty :D
07:56<Maedhros>also, your action 0 is providing properties for 17 vehicles...
07:57<+glx>grfcodec does funny things with strings :)
07:57<eekee>I wondered why the veh number wasn't there, & what that @ waws lol
07:58<eekee>Maedhros: I thought it wsa providing 17 properties for 1 veh?
07:58<Maedhros>*sigh* you're right
07:59<Maedhros>i'm not doing well at this, am i ;)
07:59<hylje>not at all
07:59<eekee>It's ok, I had to double check that :D
08:03<Maedhros>anyway, apart from missing 4 properties, what doesn't make sense about the action 0?
08:03<eekee>The action 0 line I read as action 1, feature 1, setting hex11 properties on 1 vehicle, number hex50, but the first property appears to be 00 which isn't in the wiki
08:03<hylje>enjoy your readable code
08:03<eekee>heh heh heh
08:03<Maedhros>eekee: ah. that's a general property -
08:06<eekee>wunderful, thanks
08:07<Maedhros>no problem :)
08:10<@peter1138>heh, using documented nfo is somewhat more helpful
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08:16<TheJosh>hey all
08:17<TheJosh>so we now have 32bpp? cool
08:17[~]TheJosh thinks about those transperent guis...
08:18<Rubidium>TheJosh: I think you can stay in the thinking stage for quite some while; first cpp_gui must be finished I think
08:18<DJGummikuh>c++ that is?
08:19<Eddi|zuHause2>+ in filenames is not that great of an idea :p
08:20<TheJosh>Rubidium: i assumed it would not be ready for opacity just yet, it was only added like today or so
08:20<Rubidium>only character that cannot be in a filename is the "/" ;)
08:20<DJGummikuh>Eddi|zuHause2: that doesn't answer my question
08:20<TheJosh>on linux machines, although windows is more dumb
08:20<DJGummikuh>is cpp meant to be a filesys compatible version of c++?
08:21<Eddi|zuHause2>if something is allowed, it does not mean it is a good idea :p
08:21<DJGummikuh>or is that some screwed shortcut for centered piece positioning or such?
08:21<Maedhros>one of them. i've also seen people using .cc as a file extension
08:21<Rubidium>yeah, Windows is broken. You can not even call you file "con" (without quotes ofcourse)
08:21<eekee>w00t w00t, one refittable tram
08:22<DJGummikuh>Rubidium: despite I never tried it, why is it forbidden?
08:22<+glx>con is the console
08:22<DJGummikuh>lol that looks like a beautiful hall of mirrors
08:23<Rubidium>copy con <filename>
08:23<TheJosh>Rubidium: with the 32bpp, can I assume the NewGRF format will be extended for 32bpp support so that we wont need to have hundreds of pngs lying around?
08:23<Rubidium>Microsoft's most basic text "editor"
08:23<TrueBrain>okay, I really need to make a blog post
08:23<Maedhros>TheJosh: it's not really safe to assume anything at the moment - it's all in the early stages ;)
08:24<TheJosh>i see you got that bug sorted Maedhros
08:24<TrueBrain>TheJosh: for now NewGRF won't be extended with 32bpp suport, but an addition tar-format will be introduced that combines the PNGs to a single file
08:24<TheJosh>that would be good
08:24<TheJosh>will that end up replacing NewGRF by also holding the NewGRF data in a plain-text format?
08:25<TheJosh>or xml or something?
08:25<TrueBrain>NewGRF won't be replaced
08:25<TrueBrain>32bpp images are an extension to 8bpp
08:25<TrueBrain>nothing more, nothing less
08:25<TheJosh>ok cool
08:25<TrueBrain>8bpp is and will be the core bpp
08:25<TrueBrain>optional you can add 32bpp graphics to it
08:26<TheJosh>ok makes sence
08:27<DJGummikuh>you know what I wonder about on
08:28<DJGummikuh>How the heck can you make a screenshot of a CAKE? isn't this supposed to be an old-school photo?
08:28<+glx>there's a screenshot on the cake :)
08:28<Rubidium>there's a screenshot on the cake
08:30<DJGummikuh>We've made a screenshot of it, check the screenshots section. <-- I think this does not try to tell me that there's a screenshot on the cake ;D
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08:35<Sug>wow, the 32bpp blitter is slow
08:37<TrueBrain>3 to 4 times as slow, yes
08:38<TrueBrain>a more optimized 32bpp blitter is being produced, but takes time
08:38<Rubidium>first make it work, then make it pretty ;)
08:38<TrueBrain>exactly :)
08:39<Sug>fair enough, didnt expect it to be perfect first time
08:40<TrueBrain>it is perfect, just slow :p
08:40<Sug>are you planning on increasing the size of things, as I understand it now everything has to be the same dimensions as they always have been
08:41<TrueBrain>and what is your question? :p
08:41<Sug>if your planning on increasing the tile size i guess
08:42<TrueBrain>why would we? It is perfet as it is :)
08:42<TheJosh>the doxygen docs list every function in openttd, right?
08:42<Rubidium>tiles will always be 16 by 16 ;)
08:43<TrueBrain>TheJosh: updated every night, yes
08:43<TrueBrain>or 64x31 in pixel-format :)
08:43<TheJosh>so how come the function GetVehicle doesnt show up anywhere? i cant find it anywhere
08:43<Sug>so they are getting bigger
08:44<TrueBrain>they are already that size
08:44<Sug>oh ok
08:44<Sug>then 32bpp seems a bit pointless
08:44<TrueBrain>only to you maybe
08:44<TrueBrain>TheJosh: doxygen is known to hide things ;) Also, non-documented things can be hard to find
08:44<TheJosh>i cant even find it with grep
08:45<Sug>well maybe, but if a train is only 32 pixels long. having more colours doesnt seem necceasry
08:45<TrueBrain>and why would that be?
08:46<XeryusTC>Sug: that is a silly statement :P
08:46<Sug>well yea you get more colours available
08:46<+glx>Sug: but it can have different color than the 256 in 8bpp
08:46<TrueBrain>TheJosh: btw, GetVehicle is a very special function ;) Try to find it in the source ;)
08:46<Sug>yea I get that
08:47<@peter1138>people seem to be under the impression that 32bpp was the holy grail
08:47<@peter1138>suddenly loads of different things would become possible
08:47<+glx>and you can have different transparency levels too
08:47<TrueBrain>or that the game all of a sudden looks like The Sims :p
08:47<@peter1138>in reality, all that 32bpp allows is, well, 32bpp
08:47<Sug>but it seemed from the previous work done on it that you were actually increasing the detail you could get
08:48<TheJosh>TrueBrain: how is GetVehicle special?
08:48<@peter1138>tile size does not need to increase to increase detail :)
08:48<TrueBrain>Sug: only the artists wanted to make that impression
08:48<TrueBrain>TheJosh: as I truely don't know where it is defined :p
08:48<@peter1138>TheJosh: it's a function made from a macro
08:48<Sug>when i say tile size i meant the pixels in a tile
08:48<@peter1138>so do i :)
08:48<TrueBrain> <- anyway, ins and outs on 32bpp
08:49<+glx>maybe with some zoom-in levels ;) (but not now)
08:50<TheJosh>so GetVehicle basically doesnt exist? cool
08:50<TheJosh>i have fixed my problem without seeing GetVehicle anyway
08:50<Maedhros>it does, but you won't find it with grep unless you run gcc -E over the source ;)
08:51<Rubidium>TheJosh/TrueBrain: GetVehicle is a pool method, i.e. created via a macro
08:51<Rubidium>it's defined at line 64 of oldpool.h
08:52<TheJosh>"static inline type* Get##name(uint index)" <== i see why grep missed it
08:53<TheJosh>why is it defined in such an odd way?
08:53|-|Bjarni [] has joined #openttd
08:53|-|mode/#openttd [+o Bjarni] by ChanServ
08:53<+glx>generic mempool function
08:53<+glx>reduce code duplication
08:54<Sug>TrueBrain: Very enlightening, thanks
08:54<TrueBrain>yw :)
08:54<@Bjarni>TrueLight was enlightening :/
08:55<TrueBrain>Sug: more over, maybe I should have added that too: increases the amount of pixels per tile won't really resolve anything. I don't see any reason why someone just uses 2 or 4 tiles or what ever if he wants to make something big
08:55<TrueBrain>what I saw in 32bpp scared me: 4 houses on one tile
08:55<TrueBrain>stuff like that
08:56<TrueBrain>that isn't TT-alike, that is a whole new game
08:56<TrueBrain>but okay, those 'changes' people tried to make really are unrelated to 32bpp, but are on a whole other level :)
08:56<Sug>yea, I didn't think of that
08:56<@peter1138>and longer trains don't need larger tiles either
08:56<@peter1138>probably it could be done with a minor patch quite easily
08:57<Sug>so in that case, are you planning to increase sprites sizes so you can have bigger things
08:57<@peter1138>it would just look odd going round bends ;)
08:57<Maedhros>long vehicles redux!
08:57<@peter1138>sprites aren't really limited in size
08:58<@peter1138>well, possibly to 256x256 or somesuch
08:58<@peter1138>which is large
08:58<eekee>dude ya
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08:59<Sug>but then again, taking a 45degree turn instantly doesnt exactly look realistic
09:01<@peter1138>but these are things that are no dependent on 8bpp or 32bpp
09:03[~]eekee has a squeaky tram. Ponders
09:12<eekee>yay workie! I forgot to copy some bytes
09:16<TheJosh>how can i get the owner of a vehicle? i see the owner parameter (type PlayerByte) but how can I relate that to the current player?
09:16<TheJosh>this line: "if (v->owner == _current_player) {" does not seem to be working for me
09:17<Rubidium>that should just work
09:17<Rubidium>but is the current player what you expect it to be?
09:17<Maedhros>where are you trying to use it?
09:17<TheJosh>in LoadUnloadVehicle (econonmy.cpp)
09:18<TheJosh>line 1478
09:19<Maedhros>LoadUnloadVehicle is called as part of the vehicle tick handler, so you can't assume _current_player will be right there
09:19<Rubidium>current player is undefined in there
09:19<Noldo>joy of globals
09:20<Rubidium>Noldo: even without globals this problem would exist
09:20<TheJosh>so how can I get the actual current player? i would like my loading indicators to only show for the current player
09:20<Rubidium>current player isn't what you want
09:21<Rubidium>as current player can also be the town or water when they are having their "ticks"
09:21<Rubidium>I think you want local player
09:21<Maedhros>what exactly are loading indicators? i'd have thought they'd be better off in the gui anyway...
09:21<TheJosh>would a town tick LoadUnloadVehicle?
09:22<TheJosh>loading indicators are little numbers above the train as it loads. this is just the code that updates the variable for the gui
09:23<Eddi|zuHause2>TheJosh: maybe you are better off using _local_player
09:24<TheJosh>Eddi|zuHause2: thanks, that appears to be working
09:24<TheJosh>play as player cheat will probably not be happy, but i dont care
09:25|-|Zr40|work [~Zirconium@] has joined #openttd
09:26<Zr40|work>who's managing the channel bot? :)
09:27<TrueBrain>who wants to know?
09:27|-|SpBot [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
09:27|-|SpBot [] has joined #openttd
09:28<Zr40|work>I do :)
09:28<Rubidium>well, ChanServ and NickServ are both OFTC
09:28<TrueBrain>Zr40|work: for what do you want to know?
09:28<Zr40|work>those aren't actually present in this channel, are they?
09:29<Zr40|work>TrueBrain: I'm looking for a suitable bot on another channel
09:29<TrueBrain>Supybot! :)
09:29<SpComb>SpBot! :)
09:29<Eddi|zuHause2>how much you gonna pay? :p
09:29<Zr40|work>guess :P
09:29<TrueBrain>or you want one of ours joining your chanenl?! :)
09:30<Zr40|work>TrueBrain: no, I'll run it myself - private network
09:30<Zr40|work>Eddi|zuHause2: more like 0 :)
09:30<TrueBrain>Zr40|work: either eggdrop or supybot
09:30<TrueBrain>I like supybot, python, more flexible
09:31<TrueBrain>eggdrop is a bit easier to set up, but is tcl
09:31<Zr40|work>too bad the supybot website seems to be having proxy problems
09:31<TheJosh>i have a wikipedia bot if anyone wants it
09:31<TheJosh>its allowed to do 1 edit every 15 secs
09:32<TheJosh>good ol' TheJoshBot
09:32<TheJosh>anyway im off (bed)
09:32<TheJosh>enough c++ for one night
09:32<TheJosh>patch is almost done, so exciting!
09:32<TheJosh>cya all
09:32<TrueBrain>night TheJosh
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09:34<SpComb> <-- sign up for an SpBot user account today (to gain access to funky form things that look cool)!
09:36<Hendikins>Firefox 1.5. How Quaint.
09:42<eekee>I sometimes think of going back to 1.5 for the smaller memory footprint, but I don't think it would be that much different
09:43<SpComb>I have 2.0 on my desktop, but haven't yet noticed enough of a difference between the two to upgrade this
09:44<eekee>Well I just upgraded as part of upgrading SMGL one time, but restoring session after crash/quit is worth it for me
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09:54<eekee>how do you cancel shared orders?
09:54<@peter1138>'delete' the shared order line
09:54<@peter1138>great ui isn't it?
09:55<eekee>heheh ty
09:57<Hendikins>Isn't it sad that I can tell by just looking at the theme? :P
10:04|-|Zr40|work [~Zirconium@] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
10:10<Touqen>It's beyond sad,.
10:11<Hendikins>I do QA, support, docs and third party builds. It is excusable, but still sad.
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10:44<stillunknown>I was wondering if goto statements are bad for performance.
10:45<hylje>they are bad for maintainability
10:45<Maedhros>why would they be? i'd assume they'd be closer to the actual machine code than a lot of C++ stuff
10:45<Nickman>depends on how you use em stillunknown
10:46<Nickman>goto's are not very efficiënt, because in some languages they rescan the entire document to find where to go, depends on the language...
10:46<stillunknown>Nickman: the way they are used in ottd
10:47<Rubidium>Nickman: that's compile time, so that doesn't matter
10:47<Nickman>Rubidium: could be at C and C++ since they are compile languages. But languages like BASIC don't like them alot :D
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11:07<Thomas[NL]>yay just heard I passed the exams :P
11:10<Nickman>Good for you Thomas[NL] !! great job ;)
11:10<Nickman>I'm still in the middle o f my exams
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11:11<Thomas[NL]>thank you, Nickman, good luck with yours
11:11<Noldo>oh studying, I wonder what it will feel like doing that again
11:13|-|grzywacz [~grzywacz@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
11:13<Noldo>hopefully next year
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11:23<Giddorah>How's things going? :)
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11:33<TrueBrain>Giddorah: pretty good :p
11:33<Giddorah>Excellent :D Got as grey weather where you are as we have here?
11:34<TrueBrain>passing by, but yeah
11:34<Giddorah>Excellent... That means there's no distraction, like sun and stuff, for the developers!
11:35<TrueBrain>like we didn't commit enough the last few days :p
11:35<Giddorah>What exactly is "Enough" for you? :P
11:35<TrueBrain>bugs fixes, 32bpp, ... :p
11:37<Giddorah>Wanna compare your Enough with my Enough? :D
11:38[~]Giddorah opens up his <3 to all the hard work and countless hours put into the project by everyone involved.
11:38<Giddorah>You know we love you :)
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11:49<TrueBrain>Sug: <- that is why 32bpp is useful (image by peter1138)
11:50<Sug>consider my previous statement withdrawn
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12:01<Biff>openttd: /home/magne/src/openttd/src/town_cmd.cpp:1788: void DoClearTownHouseHelper(TileIndex): Assertion `IsTileType(tile, MP_HOUSE)' failed.
12:03<Rubidium>and the savagame to reproduce this?
12:05<Rubidium>and what version?
12:05<Biff>1 sec
12:06|-|Mucht [] has joined #openttd
12:06<Biff>big file and slow connection, sorry :)
12:07<Biff>it crashed after a while, i dont know what i did, so i'll try to reproduce it
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12:09<Biff>i have a core dump aswell
12:09<Rubidium>and a backtrace?
12:09<Biff>if i can find out where it is
12:09<Biff>i'll see what i can find(1)
12:10<Rubidium>gdb -c <coredump> <binary>
12:10<Rubidium>then bt
12:10<Digitalfox>I have been trying to understand the differences between monorail and maglev in real life.. But for what i see the maglev uses monorail track and so monorail is in fact maglev right?
12:10<Biff>yup, but i dunno where the core dump is
12:10<Rubidium>and paste that to *if* it's useful :)
12:10<Rubidium>Digitalfox: wrong
12:10<Biff>i think the game changes pwd, because it was not in the directory i started in
12:10<Rubidium>monorail means vehicle driving (physically touching) one since rail
12:11<Rubidium>maglev means that the vehicle floats (does not physically touch anything)
12:11<Digitalfox>Magnetic levitation train (maglev) systems by the German Transrapid were built as straddle-type monorails, as they are highly stable and allow rapid deceleration from great speed. When in full-speed operation maglev trains actually hover over the track and are thus not in physical contact with it. It is the fastest monorail, running at up to 311 mph (501 km/h).
12:11|-|lolman [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
12:11<Biff>Rubidium: hmm, the core dump seems to be useless
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12:11<Biff>i did not compile with debugging flags i guess
12:12<Rubidium>most likely
12:12<Biff>ok, it crashed again
12:12<Biff>without me doing anything
12:13<Biff>so it should be reproducable with 10158
12:13<Biff>i have ukrs and some other grfs tho, i dont know if they can cause it
12:13<@peter1138>ttrs3 most likely
12:14<@peter1138>ukrs won't be touching houses...
12:15<Rubidium>what date approximatelly?
12:15|-|wolfy [] has quit [Read error: No route to host]
12:15<Biff>not sure, it took beetwhen 5 and 10 minutes from i loaded it
12:15|-|wolfy [] has joined #openttd
12:15<Biff>without fast forward
12:16<Digitalfox>But Rubidium if so, why don't any one make a monorail train set?? Do people think monorail is not the future or doesn't it offer any real benefict over normal trains and maglev?
12:17|-|wolfy changed nick to Wolfensteijn
12:17<Rubidium>Digitalfox: because in TTDP, which almost all newgrfs are based on, monorail or maglev (usually monorail) is sacrifised to have electrified rails
12:18<Digitalfox>In newgrf it seems people don't care or like monorail and in real life people always talk about maglev..
12:18<Digitalfox>Rubidium: I see, but it's a shame because i like monorail :)
12:19<Biff>if you first do the replacement from ordinary rails, you will wait for maglev
12:19<Biff>i think that might be the reason
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12:19<Digitalfox>Are there a lot od monorail engines in real life?
12:19<Rubidium>not besides passenger travel (same holds for maglev too) I think
12:20<Biff>if there were a easy way to replace rail monorail would be cool
12:20<Biff>but its just too hard
12:20<hylje>there is!
12:20<Biff>oh, really?
12:20<Biff>trains too
12:20<hylje>replace rail function :>
12:21<TrueBrain>I like the old days, where you had to do it by hand
12:21<Biff>TrueBrain: i hate doing that :)
12:21<Biff>its just boring work, and no fun :P
12:21<Biff>hylje: the problem is when you have several hundred trains
12:21<TrueBrain>but nowedays everyone is lazy and use the auto-convert tool :(
12:21<Rubidium>then just leave those "old" trains running on the old track and build a new state-of-the-art monorail or maglev passenger network
12:21<Biff>it takes hours to replace all the trains
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12:22<Biff>Rubidium: well, i usually fill the map with rail until the maglev stuff comes
12:22<Biff>and i want only one network
12:23<@peter1138>Digitalfox: monorail might be used more if it actually offered the real-world advantages
12:23<@peter1138>like less space usage
12:24<Biff>replacing regular rails would be as crazy as replacing the ip protocol
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12:25<TrueBrain>hi dihedral
12:25<dihedral>i was spectating a game and got a dsync error
12:25<TrueBrain>poor boy
12:25<dihedral>pitty me
12:25<dihedral>c'mon guys
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12:26<TrueBrain>what else would you expect?
12:26<TrueBrain>that we use the backdoor installed in all OpenTTD clients and look around what caused it?
12:27<dihedral>sure... :-P
12:27<dihedral>ah... but sick to the ottd files will ya
12:27<TrueBrain>Sacro: yeah, you active it with ALT+F4
12:27<dihedral>dont want you snooping around my private stuff :-P
12:27<TrueBrain>dihedral: I don't want to see your p0rn collection
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12:27<dihedral>haha - my pc is free of such stuff
12:27<SmatZ>anyone talking about p0rn?
12:27<TrueBrain>dihedral: do you browse the web?
12:28<dihedral>& i only run 100% purchased or free software
12:28<dihedral>sure do
12:28<TrueBrain>then you have p0rn on your computer
12:28<dihedral>i dont
12:28<TrueBrain>check your image-cache
12:28<dihedral>i have not image-cache
12:28<TrueBrain>your browser does :p
12:28<dihedral>it does not
12:28<dihedral>it's disabled
12:29<TrueBrain>oh, so you are that idiot consuming all our bandwidth by redownloading all css and images every page load?
12:29<dihedral>+ cookies and history is purged everytime i close it
12:29<dihedral>yep - that would be me!
12:29<TrueBrain>still, the data was on your HD, good chance it still it, might be invisible directly, but it is there
12:29<TrueBrain>s/,/;/ a few times
12:30<dihedral>ok - i'll grant you that one :-P
12:30<TrueBrain>finally :p
12:30<dihedral>but that data aint images :-D
12:30<TrueBrain>depends on your point of view ;)
12:30<TrueBrain>I even have p0rn in my email
12:30<TrueBrain>penis enlargements
12:31<TrueBrain>nowedays they include an image :(
12:31<TrueBrain>mine is big enough as it is :s
12:31<TrueBrain>I use IMAP too, but mail-client has caching :)
12:31<dihedral>over ssl
12:31<TrueBrain>even over SSL :p
12:31<dihedral>unless you disable the cache or use web clients only
12:31|-|Nickman^food changed nick to Nickman
12:31<TrueBrain>yup, but still: it is in my email
12:32<dihedral>anything that might be spam or junk is kicked automatically
12:32<dihedral>if it was not spam that aint my prob then :-D
12:32<dihedral>but yeah
12:32<TrueBrain>spam is temp stored for 3 days
12:33<dihedral>depends on config
12:33<dihedral>+ i dont look at the spam foler
12:33<TrueBrain>my mailserver => spam is temp stored for 3 days
12:33<TrueBrain>emai lfrom hotmail is lately marked as spam
12:33<TrueBrain>somehow they ended up on spamcop DB :p
12:33<Biff>TrueBrain: what if you are on vacation and something gets tagged wrong?
12:34<TrueBrain>Biff: tough luck
12:34<dihedral>i keep spam for a week for the baisian(?) filter
12:34<dihedral>but that stays on the mail server
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12:34<Rubidium>Biff: did you change the newgrfs while playing?
12:34<dihedral>i get an email every night informing me about the headers of taged mails
12:34<Biff>hmm, yes. i added the trams
12:35<TrueBrain>and that isn't marked as spam? :p
12:35<Biff>and 1 year into the game i added the newhouses
12:35<dihedral>its a text mail with sender date and subject
12:36<dihedral>of all taged emails
12:36<dihedral>i at least try keeping my computers clean
12:36<dihedral>even if that means that i am the idiot who uses up all your bandwidth
12:36<dihedral>by downloading all css files and images every time i access a page
12:37<TrueBrain>IP block......
12:37<Rubidium>Biff: well, something messed with your savegame 128 game years back
12:37<TrueBrain>(abusing my powers! Mwhahaha! :p)
12:37<Biff>Rubidium: and the error first came now?
12:37<Rubidium>Biff: apparantly
12:37<Biff>hmm, weird
12:38<dihedral>i workd as a net and sys admin in england for a couple of years
12:38<Biff>i didnt think the game had been going that long
12:38<dihedral>i became slightly paranoid
12:38<Biff>started in 1920 or 30 i think
12:38<Rubidium>hmm, no, I've misread something
12:38<TrueBrain>poor dihedral
12:38<TrueBrain>I know that I can't avoid all things, so I just gave up :p
12:38<Rubidium>anyhow, the house is already "corrupt" in the savegame that you gave me
12:39<Biff>i see
12:39<Rubidium>and on retrospect, it's build this year (the 128 was because there's some bit telling that the house is fully built)
12:39<dihedral>TrueBrain: one cannot avoid all things, but one can at least decide to not give up :-D
12:40<Rubidium>Biff: when you open that savegame that you gave me
12:40<TrueBrain>I did; I have a big magnet lying around :p
12:40<Rubidium>open the console and type "scrollto 232593"
12:41<Rubidium>that should show you some corrupted graphics in the middle of your screen
12:41<Rubidium>(like half a building)
12:41<Biff>ah yeah
12:42<Rubidium>now I need the savegame from before those buildings where there.
12:42<Rubidium>well, one that actually "creates" those corrupted buildings when letting it run for a (short) while
12:42<Biff>i'll try to find one
12:43<Biff>i found one with the same building, but it could be deleted without crashing the game
12:44<Biff>,%2011th%20Feb%202025.sav like that one
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12:49<Rubidium>Biff: that doesn't create that "broken" houses
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12:51<dihedral>TrueBrain: how about a lowlevel tool to do a 7x overwriting of all data marked to be overwritten on the hdd :-D
12:51<dihedral>using random data of coruse
12:52<Rubidium>that is _slow_
12:52<TrueBrain>dihedral: you do know that they showed that even after that, data can be recovered?
12:52<TrueBrain>the only efficient way I found is to burn the disks
12:53<TrueBrain>and I mean the internal ones
12:53<TrueBrain>not the metal surrounding it :)
12:53<dihedral>even then data can be revocered
12:53<TrueBrain>after it is burned?
12:53<dihedral>for a few 10K
12:53|-|Sacro [~Ben@adsl-87-102-80-216.karoo.KCOM.COM] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
12:53<TrueBrain>as in: put to molucules :)
12:53<Rubidium>TrueBrain: ofcourse, the magnetism starts
12:53<dihedral>depends how hot you burn it
12:54<dihedral>you are burning not melting right?
12:54<TrueBrain>dihedral: when I mean burning something, I mean that it won't be in his original form anymore :p
12:54<Rubidium>just disolve the whole thing in some "aqua regia"
12:54<TrueBrain>melting... nah, more disolving :)
12:54<TrueBrain>that in fact is pretty simple
12:54<TrueBrain>when you got the HD open
12:54<dihedral>but it is possible to recover data after say the building burnt down
12:54<TrueBrain>when the platters (what is the english word) stay inside their chassis
12:54<TrueBrain>you have a very good chance, yes
12:55<TrueBrain>it can handle some heat :)
12:55[~]Maedhros wonders how hard you'd have to hit one to completely disrupt the magnetic ordering
12:55<TrueBrain>(same as wood doesn't burn when you put it in a tube and heat it
12:55<Maedhros>and platters is indeed the right word, TrueBrain :)
12:55<TrueBrain>good :)
12:55<dihedral>thought they were discs :-D
12:56<Rubidium>they are discs, but technicians call them platters
12:56<Sacro_>the disc is the whole object
12:56<Sacro_>but it has indivdual parts such as platters and heads and things
12:56<TrueBrain>the platters are those small round things inside the disk :)
12:56<dihedral>ln-: i want one of those...
12:56<Rubidium>Sacro_: but a platter is a disc (the geometric one)
12:57<TrueBrain>Rubidium: disc-formed
12:57<Sacro_>Rubidium: disc shaped... yes
12:57<TrueBrain>shaped, better english :)
12:59<dihedral>is there a shortcut to rotate something when building it, ie a depot?
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13:39<Nickman>TrueBrain, how is the NoAI branch coming? It sounds very interesting
13:40<TrueBrain>it is interesting, but a progressis slow lately
13:40<TrueBrain>32bpp came along...
13:47<Nickman>I'd love to be able to make my own AI's ;)
13:47<Nickman>or edit the ones other have made :p
13:47<Nickman>wich will be easier... :D
13:47<TrueBrain>you already can!
13:47<TrueBrain>just you can't manage yet on station level
13:47<Nickman>only for RV's?
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14:47<Wolf01>i can't understand one thing: why the grf sets need to replace vehicles and other things from other climates? there isn't a way to use a dummy object which can be used for this?
14:47<Rubidium>those are the dummy objects
14:47<@peter1138>because there is a finite limit of vehicle ids
14:48<@peter1138>(at the moment, still, heh)
14:48<@peter1138>another patch i need to find and finish off :p
14:48<@Belugas>Yet Another Uncommited Patch
14:49<Wolf01>yeah, so "all climates on the same map" may be possible then
14:50<hylje>vehicle namespaces!
14:50<Wolf01>a system like rollercoaster tycoon or locomotion, with something like normal+64 vehicles slots should be enough
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14:51<@peter1138>Wolf01: do you really know what you are talking about?
14:51<Wolf01>and the ability to tell the game to reserve or replace the normal vehicles with the sets ones
14:52<Wolf01>i think not ;)
14:53<stillunknown>I wonder if anyone will ever make the 3d equivilant of ottd, with good gameplay.
14:53<Phazorx>stillunknown: is there a point?
14:53<stillunknown>Maybe once games are not rushed to release.
14:54<stillunknown>A point to make such a game, or if i'm making a point?
14:54<@peter1138>transport empire, apparently
14:54<Touqen>heh TE
14:55<Touqen>I'd be surprised if TE ever saw the light of day.
14:55<@peter1138>but it's got a coder now
14:56<Touqen>Though I think a transport game with a heavy focus on economics might be interesting (for those of us who really like business stuff)
14:56<Touqen>It'd still be surprised.
14:57<Touqen>uzurpator posted an update today
14:58<Phazorx>stillunknown: is there a pooint of going 3D with this game
14:59<@peter1138>mmm, opengl
14:59<Touqen>Phazorx: You can get more creative with the realism
14:59<Touqen>For those of us who like realism.
15:00<@peter1138>i wonder how to offer some 'special effects' with opengl...
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15:02<@Belugas>realism sucks... i hate that word
15:02<@Belugas>reminds me so much of "REAL LIFE"
15:02<@Belugas>plus.. for god sake... IT IS A GAME!!!
15:03<@peter1138>don't think i can do much
15:03<Biff>is it possible to delete a building from savegame?
15:03<@peter1138>well i can make a 'night-time' mode i guess
15:03<@Belugas>simulation is not real life. It is an imitation
15:03<Wolf01>peter1138, don't copy my ideas! ;)
15:03<Touqen>Striving for realism isn't necessarily a bad thing.
15:03<@peter1138>i like my realistic square tiles
15:04<@Belugas>it is, if it looses the essence of the game
15:04<@peter1138> < spot the difference ;)
15:04<Touqen>Not if the essence is realism.
15:04<@Belugas>well.. the essence of TTD is certainly not realism
15:05<Touqen>peter1138: Aren't those male glasses?
15:05<@Belugas>peter1138 : quick glence, seeing none :)
15:05<Touqen>And she only has one earring
15:05<hylje>one earring :(
15:06<@peter1138>clearly the other FELL OFF
15:06<Maedhros>the bridges look like they're missing some pillars, but that's probably just the way it's always been :)
15:06<stillunknown>peter1138: does this mean the opengl renderer is coming along?
15:07<@peter1138>stillunknown: yes
15:07<stillunknown>Does it help performance?
15:07<@peter1138>doesn't look like that any more
15:07<@peter1138>i don't know yet, i've only been using it with a debug build
15:08<Phazorx>peter1138: is it just servinggeberated sprite image via some 2D surface?
15:08<hylje>peter1138: pls provide the "arty" renderer as an (compile-time?) option!
15:08<@peter1138>hylje: but i fixed all those 'bugs' ;(
15:08<@peter1138>not really bugs, just my lack of opengl knowledge
15:08<hylje>oh noes :(
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15:09<TrueBrain>hylje: we already have 8bpp-debug :p
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15:10<hylje>how do i switch blitters? :>
15:11<TrueBrain>-b 8bpp-debug
15:11<TrueBrain>./openttd -b 8bpp-debug
15:12<helb>Wow, that's nice. :D
15:14<stillunknown>What's so nice about it?
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15:16<CIA-1>OpenTTD: truelight * r10161 /extra/pngcodec/ (7 files): [PNGCodec] -Add: added PNGCodec, a tool to modify tEXt fields of PNGs (needed for 32bpp PNGs, to store x_offs and y_offs) (boekabart)
15:16<TrueBrain>text chunks :)
15:17<stillunknown>TrueBrain: Who got the idea for this crazy renderer?
15:17<TrueBrain>which renderer?
15:17<stillunknown>the debug renderer
15:18<hylje>the debug renderer is like permanent toyland
15:18<TrueBrain>it is a debug blitter
15:18<stillunknown>Is it beneficial to have a renderer without texturing?
15:18<TrueBrain>not a renderer
15:19<stillunknown>blitter i mean
15:19<TrueBrain>and I used it a lot to see if a) my grf loader was correct (transparency), b) my blitter was correct (x_offs, etc etc)
15:19<TrueBrain>by getting ride of the image details and placing a single color
15:19<TrueBrain>you immediatly see when something is wrong
15:19<@peter1138>should we not compile it for non-debug builds?
15:19<TrueBrain>nah, it is funny :)
15:20<hylje>it's not the default
15:20<hylje>and btw
15:20<@peter1138>i like the null blitter ;)
15:20<hylje>wtf's with the funnily colored letters
15:20<@peter1138>hylje: they're sprites too...
15:20<hylje>Error: Can't use a blitter that blits 0 bpp for normal visuals
15:20<hylje>i dont liek null blitter :(
15:21<stillunknown>Error: Can't use a blitter that blits 0 bpp for normal visuals
15:21<TrueBrain>hylje: use -vnull or -D ;)
15:21<@peter1138>null blitter is selected automatically for dedicated servers
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15:35<Ailure>is there any nice 32bpp graphics you can use somewhere
15:35<Eddi|zuHause2>what i always wondered... how did the word "null" end up in programming languages... as "Null" is the german word for "zero"
15:35<hylje>null is more null than zero
15:35<Ailure>null is basically nothing
15:36<Eddi|zuHause2>i know what null means...
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15:36<Ailure>it could been called nothing
15:36<Ailure>but that wouldn't be fun
15:36<Eddi|zuHause2>that was not my question
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15:36<TinoDidriksen>Null is the Ø set, but coding languages were ASCII so didn't have that glyph available.
15:37<Ailure>there's a null charcther
15:37<Ailure>00 in hex
15:37<hylje>then you have APL which is deliberately full of special glyphs
15:37<Ailure>and yes
15:38<Ailure>Null is in ASCII
15:38<Ailure>and Ansi
15:38<Ailure>but it's tricky to write on a keyboard obviously
15:38<Eddi|zuHause2>again... an occurence of the word, but no reason why it got there
15:38<CIA-1>OpenTTD: truelight * r10162 /extra/pngcodec/make.bat: [PNGCodec] -Fix r10161: add MSVC project file (boekabart)
15:40<TinoDidriksen>There's a difference between the null character (0x00) and the null variable state.
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15:41<colle>the null word is latin
15:41<Eddi|zuHause2>"nihil" is probably the root of the word...
15:41<colle>both german end english got it from there
15:41<Ailure>reminds me how I was amused
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15:42<Ailure>that it's possible for a indice in a boolean array to have three diffrent values
15:42<Ailure>true, false and null
15:42<Ailure>technicall, null is the absence of a value
15:42<Ailure>but heh
15:43<Eddi|zuHause2>in hardware design, we calculated with 9 state "booleans" :p
15:44<Ailure>boolean logic dosen't consider mu state
15:44[~]eekee doesn't like considering it either, lol
15:44<hylje>boolean logic: yes maybe no
15:45<Eddi|zuHause2>yes, no, really?
15:45<hylje>YES NO ORLY
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15:57<eekee>I've got some shadows of UFOs left from playing a game with 9963, any way I can get rid of them?
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16:02<Ailure>[22:55] <eekee> I've got some shadows of UFOs left from playing a game with 9963, any way I can get rid of them?
16:02<Ailure>for a second
16:03<Ailure>I thought you talked about the image of a UFO being burned into your monitor
16:03|-|Alanin changed nick to alanin
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16:06<Eddi|zuHause2>you are probably wrong here
16:06<Alanin>oh yeah
16:06<Alanin>i see
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16:37<Eddi|zuHause2>looks kind of fake
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16:39<Sacro>Eddi|zuHause2: not faked
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16:44<XeryusTC>Eddi|zuHause2: that is kubica after crashing into a concrete wall
16:46<mikk36>that's a real photo
16:46<mikk36>kubica crashing into a concrete wall @ 290+ km/h
16:46<Phazorx>did he fell asleep?
16:46<Phazorx>this looks like remains of F1 car
16:47<mikk36>he bumped into another car, which made him "fly"
16:47<mikk36>into a concrete wall
16:48<Phazorx>what is it that white stuff leaking from thing above the top part covering his legs?
16:48<mikk36>don't know
16:48<mikk36>cooling liquid ?
16:48<Sacro>nothing to cool there i don't reckon
16:48<Phazorx>Sacro: breaks
16:49<Sacro>Phazorx: brakes?
16:49<mikk36>Sacro, body ?
16:49<Phazorx>Sacro: graphite disks go read and heat up to 500C when it goes from 200 to 50 in 2 seconds
16:49<Phazorx>go red
16:49<mikk36>f1 drivers have liquid cooling for body
16:49<Sacro>500C? its about 1500
16:50<Sacro>they run cool around 750
16:50<Phazorx>1500 is above steel meting temperature
16:50<Phazorx>i could be wrong about 500 but it's unlikey to be 1500
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16:50<mikk36>they don't use steel brakes there
16:51<Phazorx>michi_cc: of course not
16:51<mikk36>that's why they're so damn good
16:51<Phazorx>there is not much steel in that car actualy
16:51<Phazorx>hmm.. i should have bene there
16:51<Phazorx>montreal is 5 hours drive from here :/
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16:55<Phazorx>from what i hear w/o understanind german - he bumped into jarno truly?
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16:56<Sacro>yeah, he hit trulli
16:57<mikk36>then the front wing came off and he drive over it, which bumped him into the air
16:57<mikk36>which made him drive off the track
16:57<Sacro>pretty much, yeah
16:57<mikk36>3 seconds and you're doomed :P
16:58<Phazorx>someone else got affected by debris i think
16:58<mikk36>not much
16:58<mikk36>everyone got through freely
16:59<mikk36>anyway, i'm off
16:59<mikk36>to bed
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17:31<Ailure>that's really trippy
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17:32<valhalla1w>that's about as nice as openttd via test-mode SDL
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18:53<UnderBuilder>nice to hear the implementation of 32bpp in trunk
18:54<Digitalfox_>yeah :)
18:54<Digitalfox_>I've tried to load some 32bpp files and it works :)
18:54<Digitalfox_>Offcourse the only thing i was ablle was to do this ( still learning ) ..
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19:01<UnderBuilder>so now hands to the work and create more blender stuff :)
19:02<eekee>anyone happen to know how to shift a stuck tram?
19:02<eekee>(it appears to think it's at the end of it's rails, although it's not)
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19:09<Digitalfox_>This is a buggy screnshot i've taken in game THIS IS A REAL GAME SHOT NO PHOTOSHOP, from a png i added:
19:10<Digitalfox_>I've replaced a sprite from sawmill, and that was what i get ;)
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19:11<Digitalfox_>It's actually very simple :) I thought it would more hard, but if you know what sprites like a sawmill use, you can replace it for a new 32bpp image :)
19:12<Digitalfox_>If you want to try see this
19:14<Digitalfox_>Ofcourse i imagine that developers will simplify the use of 32bpp, with tools like TrueBrain introduced PNGCodec
19:15<Digitalfox_>I believe this is the answer to everybody who asked when we would have 32bpp in openttd, you can play with it ;)
19:15<Digitalfox_>Now we just need thos artists and coders to start betting in 32bpp :)
19:17<eekee>heh, there's the cause of my stuck tram: long vehicles overlapping ;)
19:21<eekee>dude, these trams look like road trains sometimes
19:21<eekee>it's funny
19:23<SteamWilly>where's the difference??
19:23<_Ben_>Difitalfox: you have been able to play with it in the 32bpp build for some time, with the 2 extra zooms. But its really good now trunk has it
19:25<Digitalfox_>_Ben_: Yes i know :) But i'm refering to the trunk and developers choise of how it works being different form 32bpp branch ;)
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20:06<@Belugas>Finally!!! Success!
20:07<@Belugas>one of the few remaining graphics bugs!
20:07<@Belugas>one more down, a few more to go :D
20:07<@Belugas>problem : why does it not have the same recoloring???
20:08<+glx>what do you mean?
20:12<@Belugas>the fuel thank should be recolored as the ... house or whatever...
20:12<@Belugas>it's the same original blue
20:13<@Belugas>in all cases.
20:13<@Belugas>the fuel depot shold have a color too.
20:13<@Belugas>so.. i'm wondering
20:13<@Belugas>patch industries have fuel tanks recolored, not mine
20:14<@Belugas>may i broke some code on my own side...
20:14<@Belugas>digging up
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20:17<@Belugas>LA BOMBA!!
20:17|-|Eddi|zuHause2 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:18<+glx>was an error in drawing call?
20:20<@Belugas>mmh... not sure... looks like a bug, but i'm not sure. I had to add the palette modifier to get the tanks to work, on thje current draw routine
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20:20<@Belugas> } else if (HASBIT(image, PALETTE_MODIFIER_COLOR)) {
20:20<@Belugas> pal = GENERAL_SPRITE_COLOR(ind->random_color);
20:20<@Belugas>tht was required.
20:21<@Belugas>So maybe, there is a problem elsewhere.
20:21<@Belugas>not supposed to have affected the regular code like that
20:22<+glx>hmm I just tried in trunk, I have 2 reffineries, they are blue :)
20:22<@Belugas>so indedd they are broken
20:22<@Belugas>and i think i have a clue why
20:22<@Belugas>it's the transparency stuff
20:22<+glx>new blitter maybe
20:23<@Belugas>i had that problem way before they started it
20:23<@Belugas> if (HASBIT(image, PALETTE_MODIFIER_COLOR) && dits->ground.pal == PAL_NONE) {
20:23<@Belugas>that's the problem i think
20:23<@Belugas>the ground.pal additionnal condition
20:25<@Belugas>sorry...not that...
20:25<+glx>industry color is stored in savegame?
20:25<+glx>I mean in the tile
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20:26<@Belugas>no, it is in Industry->random_color
20:27<+glx>but it's saved :)
20:27<@Belugas>so, it's assigned on creation and that's it
20:27<@Belugas>ofcourse :)
20:27<@Belugas>in the industry chunk
20:27<+glx>so if I use a savegame from 0.5.2, I can try to find the breaking rev
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20:29<@Belugas>8127 :)
20:29<@Belugas>or so i think
20:30<+glx>I svn up 8126 first then
20:30<@Belugas>no prob
20:30<@Belugas>i'll fetch the diff meanwhile
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20:31<@Belugas>oups.. r8128, sorry
20:31<+glx>compiling 8126 for now :)
20:32<+glx>hey it's a pre unicode :)
20:32<@Belugas>it's definitively r8128
20:32<+glx>I mean win9x/win32 split
20:33<@Belugas>ormode was defined at the top of the function,
20:33<@Belugas>and has been removed
20:33<@Belugas>so the ground sprite got the recoloring,
20:34<@Belugas>but the building sprite never
20:36<+glx>so the check is wrong
20:36<@Belugas>yup, since it forgot to add the recoloring
20:37<@Belugas>but the pure fix does not make it look better :S
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20:37<@Belugas>got to find a cleaner way to do it
20:38<+glx>needs if (HASBIT(image, PALETTE_MODIFIER_COLOR) && dits->building.pal == PAL_NONE) { ...
20:38<+glx>like it's done for ground
20:39<Digitalfox_>How do you guys know in witch revision some piece of code get changed and causes a bug, i mean does the compiler tools has some kind info tool for that or you just have go look the revision change log to find out on what revision the code line got changed?
20:39<@Belugas>Or someting like that :
20:39<+glx>svn blame :)
20:39<@Belugas>but it's not pretty...
20:40<@Belugas>or TortoiseSVN, View Journal :)
20:41<+glx>&& dits->building.pal == PAL_NONE is needed I think
20:41<@Belugas>hem... possible
20:41<@Belugas>yeah... you're rght of course
20:43<+glx>but it's strange nobody noticed it for more than 2000 revs :)
20:43<@Belugas>like that, yo mean?
20:43<@Belugas>well... trams got in the way, 32bpp, and what else more?
20:43<@Belugas>it's only industries, after all...
20:44<+glx>yes same behaviour as the "removed" code :)
20:44<@Belugas>i battled over this one since i've been able to load gfx from grfs
20:44<@Belugas>yes, a revert-forward :D
20:44<@Belugas>compiling and commiting
20:45<@Belugas>good tink i did :D
20:45<+glx>8128 doesn't compile
20:46<Digitalfox_>This is why i love the way openttd development is done.. Devs even talk in irc of code and what is happening at the moment :)
20:47<Digitalfox_>For a user like myself this is great has i can follow the work being done
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20:49<+glx>ok 8129 + your diff, the colors are correct :)
20:51<@Belugas>Digitalfox, the worste job of a dev is finding proper commit messages :D
20:51<@Belugas>thanks glx
20:51<+glx>yeah I'm bad for that :)
20:52<+glx>the start is easy "-Fix (r8128):..."
20:54<CIA-1>OpenTTD: belugas * r10163 /trunk/src/industry_cmd.cpp: -Fix(r8128): Industries had lost their random recoloring. A test was removed and is now reintroduced in another way.
20:54<@Belugas>soo..... two problems solved tonight :D
20:54<@Belugas>i can lay down to sleep,my conscience is clean
20:54<Digitalfox_>Belugas: Yeah, some of the commit messages i see, i bet the devs spend more time thinking on what to write, that on what to code.. ;)
20:54<@Belugas>oh yeah :)
20:55<@Belugas>bye bye and good night
20:55<+glx>some 1 line fixes have a 2 line commit message
20:55<Digitalfox_>bye :)
20:55<+glx>night Belugas
20:55<Digitalfox_>good night for you too Belugas :)
20:56<Digitalfox_>glx: I use tortoisesvn to see what changed in each commit, and some times is just a letter or a number, and there is big commit message :\
20:57<Digitalfox_>But atleast things are easy to know what changed..
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21:05<_Ben_>hmm this talk of 32bpp got me experimenting with graphics again, but I always gut stuck in the same ruts. Things like the roads. Theres a range of opinions on what they should look like, (a standard set), but in reading the openttd blog earlier I noted that the agreed aim among dev's is just to have things as close to the original as posible. With roads that isn't really posible, becuase the curvature would just look insain, but heres the average colours us
21:05<_Ben_>ed for the new roads (photoshoped) what do people reacon?. >
21:06<+glx>not bad
21:07<JRWR>I wanted to thank you guys for making OpenTTD, its the only good game i could find for my old ass p2 300mhz
21:07<JRWR>Nice Road _Ben_
21:07<Sacro>i could do UKSignals in 32bpp
21:08<_Ben_>would people here advice making the roads something like that? or is there any advice before I go off rendering?
21:09<JRWR>why with NPF do trains still get lost (well stuck atlest)
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21:20<Phazorx>road looks pretty nice, not sure what exactly do you mean by curvature
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21:22<_Ben_>In the originals there almost black at the edges and a light grey in the centre to give the inpression that the roads are heavily cambered
21:24<Phazorx>ahh, you mean actualy profile rather than turns
21:25<Phazorx>i tihnk that is true more fo topric and much less for temperat/artic
21:26<Phazorx>i did not notice it untill you mention it in standard sets - edges are "smooth" but i think that is for nice border impression
21:26<Phazorx>actual pavement would be much better - but i tihnk it needs to go few steps forward for multilane roads
21:26<Phazorx>yours look very nice as a regular two way siderowad
21:26<Phazorx>but that is it
21:27<_Ben_>so wider road?
21:29<_Ben_>the dark edges do just help to emphasise the edging, but when you make more zoomed graphics, the area shading can't stay proposionate, it needs to be small, otherwise it looks pretty strange
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21:43<Phazorx>well, city tiles with buildings have "concrete" bases right?
21:43<Phazorx>and country siderowads are surrounded by grass so they are green
21:44<Phazorx>essentually it wold be nice to classify roads from streets
21:45<Phazorx>so orads are countryside with green edges and streets are aspalt with concrete pavement
21:45<_Ben_>ah, well at the moment I'm just aiming to replace, but grades of roads would be interesting. I like the idea of differnet surfaces particually
21:45<Phazorx>doesnt ansver your question - but i guess idea of original TTD art was to fit both purposes
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---Logclosed Fri Jun 15 00:00:19 2007