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#openttd IRC Logs for 2007-06-22

---Logopened Fri Jun 22 00:00:57 2007
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00:16[~]Tobin waves
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00:53<Hendikins>Ah, Sydney. Where else would you have trains called "The Fish" and "The Chips"? :P
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01:01<eekee>heh ^^
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02:47<dihedral>i found out where the overflow of the php integer occures
02:48<dihedral>128 << 24 is the first one that fails...
02:48<eekee>whoa, yeah it would
02:48<dihedral>why would it?
02:49<dihedral>that aint 32 bit to me :-)
02:49<eekee>Not sure, but Python puts the result into one of it's long ints
02:49<eekee>>>> 128<<24
02:49<dihedral>php only has int and float
02:49<eekee>use a float, then
02:50<dihedral>php has auto type casting
02:50<eekee>I expect the reason is that it uses the upper bits are used to specify the data type
02:51<eekee>ah, for auto type casting.. ugh, are you doing any math on the numbers?
02:51<dihedral>i am working on OpenTTDLib, just want them to display
02:52<roboboy>grr that serej guy or whatever it is has returned
02:52<eekee>Reason I asked is because if you're doing something like var * 2 changing that to var * 2.0 should make php give you a float back
02:52<dihedral>lol 128 << 32 gives me 128 :-P
02:53<dihedral>i am overflowing the integer!!
02:54<eekee>grr, you should have been doing 1 << 24 etc, that would have made that immediately obvious :)
02:54<dihedral>127 << 24 works :-)
02:54<eekee>1 << 31 shouldn't
02:55<dihedral>it does!
02:55<eekee>what do you get?
02:55<dihedral>anything above 127 << 24 overflows
02:55<dihedral>^ result from 1 << 31
02:56<Rubidium>dihedral: and 128 * 16777216 (i.e. calculating the << manually and then multiply)
02:56<dihedral>that did not overflow!!
02:56<eekee>thought so. 1 << 31 should be 2147483648, which is 1 greater than the maximum positive number a signed 32-bit interger can display
02:57<dihedral>doing 1 << 31 did overflow eekee
02:58<Rubidium>because (1 << 31) - 1 is the maximum value for a int32
02:58<eekee>Ah, I said "1 << 31 shouldn't" and you said "it does!" so I thought you meant it did work, as in workign properly, lol
02:59<dihedral>eekee: +n't :-P
02:59<dihedral>eekee: ^ thats a diff :-P
02:59<eekee>Oh :D
02:59<dihedral>well... no it's now
03:00<eekee>--- dihedral.old
03:00<eekee>+++ dihedral
03:01<dihedral>yeah - i know
03:01<dihedral>it was a dih.diff
03:01<dihedral>never made it to a standard... it "dihed" :-P
03:02<dihedral>if i use a dec2bin convertsion, and just concaternate the parts
03:02<dihedral>i should have a 64 bit long binary string
03:03<dihedral>representing the value i need
03:03<dihedral>could that bee an approach?
03:04<Maedhros>i wonder if you could cast the variable to long in php
03:04<eekee>dihedral: what's the original data format? Long int?
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03:05<eekee>err.. long long int, whatever 64 bit is
03:05<Rubidium>Maedhros: even then, aren't longs not always 64 bits?
03:06<Rubidium>but as far as I could find, the only reference to int64 of anything php related is a bug in the mysql reading of int64 variables from the databased
03:06<dihedral>php is not able to handl 64 bit integer variables
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03:07<dihedral>and only has 2 numeric variable types
03:07<dihedral>integer and float
03:07<eekee>Get an account on a 64-bit webserver :)
03:07<dihedral>due to automatic type setting
03:07<dihedral>eekee: this should work on 32 bit machines
03:07<dihedral>$str = "2";
03:08<dihedral>$str = $str * 4
03:08<dihedral>then $str will becom int
03:08<eekee>dihedral: what are the datatypes of the data you wish to display?
03:08<dihedral>it's the money variable from openttd, sent in the udp packet
03:08<dihedral>it's a 64 bit integer!
03:09<eekee>Right.... hmmm
03:09<dihedral>and it fails reading that packet data when this value is heigher 127 << 24
03:10<eekee>damn, even if you rea it as 2x32 bits, the second one would still need to be an unsigned int for the math method to work...
03:10<eekee>can you convert integers to a hex string?
03:11<eekee>(gettign desperate here, lol)
03:12<dihedral>if i have a binary string, i can convert it to a float
03:12<dihedral>and that works
03:12<dihedral>i.e. $str = "111111111111111111111111111111111111111111";
03:12<dihedral>bindec( $str );
03:12<eekee>ah cool, will it work on a 64 bit binary string?
03:13<eekee>oh yeah that's cool ^_^
03:13<dihedral>well - i just tried it with more than 32 ones in the string
03:13<dihedral>and got float(4398046511100)
03:13<eekee>yeah, cool cool
03:13<eekee>reckon that's the way to go then
03:14<dihedral>though i would have to start with the heighest uint8 fetched from the packet
03:15<dihedral>and do a decbin() on it
03:15<dihedral>then go to the uint8 before that
03:15<eekee>yeah, slow, but seems to be the only way
03:15<dihedral>and concaternate them all to a string
03:15<dihedral>i'll give it a try
03:16<Maedhros>and suddenly i remember why i don't particularly like php ;)
03:16<dihedral>when not dealing with a 64 bit integer it's great :-P
03:17<dihedral>or let me rephrase that
03:17<eekee>I'm sure it is, for it's purpose
03:17<dihedral>when dealing with stuff php can handle it is great :-D
03:17<dihedral>now that was wisdom in is purity
03:18<eekee>Honestly, as a thing for displaying dynamic web data, I think it's a little odd that it doesn't handle 64-bits.. ooh wait, is there some kind of arbitrary-precision math module for it?
03:18<dihedral>dont know
03:18[~]eekee looks
03:20<eekee>pear-math_binaryutils <-- try that module
03:20<eekee>might need to look up pear-math_basex too
03:23<dihedral>thanks eekee
03:23<dihedral>i shall
03:28<dihedral>for some reason i dont believe 9.22337203685E+18 is a very valid income :-P
03:29[~]eekee checks
03:29<eekee>oh ya... brain asleep
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03:30<dihedral>and that was a 63 bit "111111111111111111111111111111111111111111110001010011110000101"
03:30<eekee>Ah :D
03:31<eekee>>>> 0xb111111111111111111111111111111111111111111110001010011110000101
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03:31<dihedral>i could use pack() Pack data into binary string
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03:32<Maedhros>eekee: that's hex, not binary :p
03:32<eekee>Maedhros: oh :D
03:32<hylje>there was a binary literal somewhere
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03:33[~]eekee hasn't slept last night, & barely slept Wednesday night :J
03:39<dihedral>eekee should not play as much :-)
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04:13<dihedral>eekee: you feel like playing around with that php stuff? :-D
04:13<eekee>dihedral: no :D
04:14<dihedral>while( $answer === false ){ askQuestion() }
04:14[~]eekee howls plaintivly like a wolf puppy
04:15<dihedral>thats scary man!!
04:15[~]dihedral runs for his life
04:16[~]dihedral calles a doctor for eekee
04:16[~]eekee hides in the forest =o.o=
04:17<@peter1138>does php support gmp?
04:17<eekee>I think you should stick with the binary thing, sorry if I made it more complicated by sugestign those modules
04:18<dihedral>yes, if compiles --with-gmp
04:19<dihedral>eekee: not at all
04:19<dihedral>i am just at work so i cannot do ~that~ much atm
04:19<eekee>o ok :)
04:19<eekee>ok :)
04:22<dihedral>peter1138: would using gmp help?
04:22<@peter1138>gmp supports arbitrary length numbers
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04:34<dihedral>gmp is not included as default
04:34<dihedral>perhaps perhaps bcmath
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04:52<c20h25n3o>hi all !
04:52|-|c20h25n3o changed nick to MVV
04:53<MVV>who remembers me...
04:53<MVV>i guess, i have a bug... i'll try explain...
04:54<@peter1138>explain >
04:54<MVV>ok :)
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04:54<SmatZ>"i have a bug" :)
04:55<TheJosh>i have too...but i leave traps out with cheese in them at night time
04:56<TheJosh>perhaps MVV needs some flyspray
04:56<@peter1138>hurr hurr
04:57<TheJosh>weak i know
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05:03<[BDS]-Klaus>hi alle zusammen
05:04<[BDS]-Klaus>hat jemand paar tips in sachen linux server ott?
05:04<[BDS]-Klaus>gibt es da scripts oder so?
05:05<TrueBrain>[BDS]-Klaus: this is an english channel; please try again
05:06<[BDS]-Klaus>hi... i need information about useful scripts for ott for linux server
05:06<[BDS]-Klaus>i have 2 root servers and have 1 dedicated ott server
05:07<[BDS]-Klaus>and now i search for scripts there are make the play easylier... usefull... or better
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05:08<oxygene_>search for "autopilot"
05:09<[BDS]-Klaus>in forum?
05:09<[BDS]-Klaus>or google?
05:09<oxygene_>just search somewhere ;) i don't know the web page but i'm sure google will come up with something if you search for "openttd autopilot"
05:10<[BDS]-Klaus>ok i find this:
05:11<[BDS]-Klaus>i think this is ok... i test it... thx
05:11<TheJosh>you found it
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05:12<TheJosh>peer resetted someone again. he is so nasty
05:12<TheJosh>going around resetting people all the time
05:12<TheJosh>i had better get off before he hacks _me_!
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05:19<eekee>oh haha
05:22<[BDS]-Klaus>can anyone tell how to run server with autopilot?
05:22<[BDS]-Klaus>i have read the maual but i didnt know what they mean
05:23<[BDS]-Klaus>i have run a server... but what must i do now
05:23<[BDS]-Klaus>to run this script
05:23<[BDS]-Klaus>with no sql and irc support
05:24<dihedral>i believe the docs and the readme state the exact commands that need to be executed
05:25<[BDS]-Klaus>this time i start the server with this: openttd -D
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06:15<KSiimson>latest nightly crashes
06:15<KSiimson>listopenttd: /compile_farm/openttd/nightly/compile_dir/src/news_gui.cpp:278: void AddNewsItem(StringID, uint32, uint, uint): Assertion `_total_news == 30' failed.
06:17<SmatZ>KSiimson: yes
06:17<SmatZ>nightly is broken
06:17<SmatZ>it is corrected now
06:17<KSiimson>xd i downloaded it 30 minutes ago
06:18<SmatZ>KSiimson: nightly is built once a day, at 23 UTC or so
06:18<Rubidium>which was made 17 hours ago
06:18<KSiimson>okay, time to browse the archive :p
06:23<KSiimson>235 doesn't even start up
06:24<KSiimson>can't wait for next stable :)
06:25<SmatZ> <- so pretty!
06:26<KSiimson>old 235 started up
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06:27<Jerub>.. I just saw the weirdest thing.
06:27<Jerub>I saw a monorail train loop back on itself.
06:28<Jerub>literally pass through itself.
06:28<SmatZ>Jerub: trains cannot crash themselves
06:28<dihedral>with 128 * pow( 2, 32 ) i dont even get a problem
06:28<dihedral>if only i could get rid of these 2.81474976711E+16 thingies
06:28<Rubidium>you can't
06:29<Rubidium>floating point doesn't have that much precision
06:29<dihedral>but should 128 * pow( 2, 48 ) not be something with a bunch of trailing zeros?
06:29<Rubidium>as I said, floating points don't have that kind of precision
06:30<Rubidium>it'll just give you the floating point "value" closest to the given value
06:30<Rubidium>and 2^whatever never gives you lots of trailing zeros
06:30<dihedral>ops... true :-P
06:30<SmatZ>double has 52 bits for mantisa, float has 23 bits
06:31<SmatZ>long double has ... 63?
06:31<Sacro>How does OpenTTD use different fonts under Windows? Does it use Freetype?
06:33<dihedral>75 * pow( 2, 48 ) = 21110623253299200 ??
06:34<Sacro>peter1138: i don't see it
06:34<eekee>dihedral: Python agrees *shrug*
06:35<SmatZ>dihedral: yes
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06:43<dihedral>i have got to be doing something wrong...
06:43<dihedral>i mean - i get half way decent values using bcmath now
06:43<dihedral>thouth if you check
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06:44<dihedral>the last server (appologies for querying a server that aint mine)
06:44<dihedral>2 income values seem strange
06:44<Rubidium>they have a negative income
06:44<dihedral>hence the 255 for << 24 and bejond?
06:45<[BDS]-Klaus>can anyone tell me how to build trains on a road... as a tram
06:45<dihedral>you need a grf :-)
06:45<Rubidium>[BDS]-Klaus: what version of OpenTTD?
06:46<dihedral>would i be wrong to assume that if the value to be moved << 24 is 255
06:47<dihedral>i treat them all as 0 and do a *-1?
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06:47<eekee>ehhh... generally if the MSB is 1, it's negative
06:48<eekee>most significant bit
06:48<dihedral>which one is that
06:48<dihedral>[BDS]-Klaus: there aint no trams for 0.5.2
06:48<Rubidium>[BDS]-Klaus: then there is no way to get trams
06:49<[BDS]-Klaus>ok... thx
06:49<[BDS]-Klaus>version to new?
06:49<eekee>oh hey, I think that means that if the value to be moved << 24 is > 127, then it's negative
06:49<dihedral>[BDS]-Klaus: get a nightly
06:49<[BDS]-Klaus>need older?
06:49<[BDS]-Klaus>what must i do to use tram?
06:50<dihedral>eekee: for 64 bit integers?
06:50<[BDS]-Klaus>what you mean with nightly... i have now installed original 0.52 of the website
06:50<eekee>ugh, no, wait
06:50<dihedral>the MSB is 128 << 24
06:50<dihedral> :-) thought that sounded odd :-P
06:50[~]eekee gets pencil & paper :d
06:50<SmatZ>dihedral: you use 64 bit values?
06:50<Rubidium>[BDS]-Klaus: 0.5.2 is the newest stable version, "nightlies" are development snapshots that lead to 0.6.0. 0.5.3 will not have any new features, only bugfixes (so no trams in 0.5.3 either)
06:50<dihedral>i am trying to at least
06:50<dihedral>currently using the bc math extention to php
06:51<dihedral>and that is looking quite promissing
06:51<Rubidium>SmatZ: php doesn't have "native" 64 bits variables
06:51<Rubidium>so he has to do all the trickery himself
06:51<dihedral>bc math works with strings :-D
06:51<SmatZ>dihedral Rubidium too bad I don't know PHP :(
06:51<dihedral>you got me all suspended there :-P
06:51<dihedral>getting my hops high
06:52[~]dihedral is dissapointed in SmatZ
06:52<dihedral>do something
06:52<dihedral>fix it :-D
06:53<SmatZ>if the highed doubleword is negative
06:53<SmatZ>then the whole number is negative
06:53<SmatZ>if it helps you
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06:53<dihedral>and what is the highed doubleword?
06:53<eekee>that's it. Same goes for highest byte
06:53<SmatZ>the more significant 32 bits
06:53<Rubidium>ohoh, we're going to make dihedral crazy with bytes, words, dwords, qwords and nibbles ;)
06:54<dihedral>as long as it fixes it i dont care :-)
06:54[~]eekee throws some quarks into the mix & stirs
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06:54[~]dihedral adds some strawberries
06:55<Rubidium>dihedral: if "value" > pow(2, 63) "value" -= pow(2, 64) should solve it
06:55[~]eekee sprinkles Zamphour...
06:55<dihedral>is there a * somewhere
06:55<eekee>shouldn't be
06:55<SmatZ>* .. lue" >= pow(2, ..
06:58<dihedral>Rubidium: you are a genious :-D
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06:59<dihedral>now i only need to test it against a server where someone has a few billion money or value
06:59<dihedral>anybody know one?
07:00<dihedral>i am at work, and cannot really open a game to check myself :-D
07:00<eekee>I could run one, load up & old single-player game of mine
07:00<Rubidium>maybe one of the ottdcoop games?
07:00<dihedral>good idea
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07:02<eekee>ok mine shuld be up: eekee's tester
07:02<dihedral>sugar :-)
07:03<eekee>$10920146574 btw, £5460073287
07:04<dihedral>yeah - not doing any multiplication yet
07:04<dihedral>the euro is misleading i know
07:04<dihedral>i took that out (multiplying) to see the retrieved values
07:04<SmatZ>dihedral: maybe you could add the alt attribute to img tags
07:04<SmatZ>i dont know what do those icons mean
07:04<dihedral>which ones?
07:05<dihedral>same icons as on
07:05<SmatZ>the left from the flag
07:05<SmatZ>maybe because it is a dedicated server
07:05<dihedral>dedicated and nondedicated
07:05<SmatZ>just a suggestion :) I started moving my mouse over those images and waited for some text
07:05<dihedral>the dark background aint all that helpful
07:06<dihedral>that is a title tag
07:06<dihedral>alt is only displayed if the image cannot be retrieved
07:06<dihedral>thank you very much eekee Rubidium and SmatZ
07:06<eekee>Welkies :)
07:07<dihedral>what a pain... :-) but i think i shall document it for others
07:07<dihedral>others = other php users who run into trouble with 64 bit integers
07:08<SmatZ>dihedral: yes, you are right :)
07:08<SmatZ>happy to help
07:09<TrueBrain>@openttd commit 10264
07:09<TrueBrain>@openttd commit 10265
07:09<TrueBrain>@openttd commit 10266
07:09<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: Commit by truelight :: r10264 /trunk (3 files in 2 dirs) (2007-06-22 09:44:21 UTC)
07:09<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: -Fix: forgot to add texteff.hpp to the project files
07:09<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: Commit by truelight :: r10265 /trunk/src (4 files) (2007-06-22 10:57:53 UTC)
07:09<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: -Feature: allow double-clicking on certain places: build-vehicle and town-action
07:09<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: Commit by rubidium :: r10266 /trunk (31 files in 4 dirs) (2007-06-22 11:58:59 UTC)
07:09<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: -Codechange: keep track of the origin, time of travel and accumulated feeder share (transfers) of individual pieces of cargo. This means that cargo isn't thrown on a big pile when it's put in a station or unloaded at a station, however the GUI does not reflect these changes yet so you will not actually see it.
07:10<Sacro>cargo packets?
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07:14<eekee>Yay we getting cargo packets?
07:15<eekee>Sacro: currently, when you have a transfer station with multiple feeders, the cargo gets mixed up. I think it all seems to come from wherever the last train came from
07:15<Sacro>eekee: yes, it gets set to the destination station
07:15<Sacro>so if cargo from a, b and c gets dropped at d
07:15<Sacro>when the train to e comes, it all looks like it started at d
07:16<Rubidium>and now it still looks (gui-wise) similarly, but the game backend handles it properly
07:16<eekee>ah good good ^^
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07:20<Phazorx>has a bug for screewed up end of game picute been submitted already?
07:21<Rubidium>afaik it's already fixed
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07:23<Phazorx>wrong one?
07:23<Phazorx>Rubidium: just checking, have not seen that ebfore
07:24<SmatZ>Phazorx: yes ... it was a different bug report, this one
07:26[~]Phazorx wonders if anyone aside of peter looked at
07:27<SmatZ>I looked at it, it is an interesting bug
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07:29<Rubidium>SmatZ: 119 is also interesting ;)
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07:30<SmatZ>Rubidium: yes, it is a really interesting bug :) I found problems with trains under bridges in trunk, too
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07:31<Rubidium>SmatZ: yes, but those are different (though maybe related)
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07:31<Rubidium>in your patch any train going under a bridge shows through, whereas in trunk only strange things seem to happen when a train goes over the bridge at the same time (IIRC)
07:33<SmatZ>Rubidium: there many problems with heights - one level has height 8, tunnels have height 12, electrified railways have also some strange height, maybe even trains are higher than 8
07:33<Rubidium>SmatZ: yes, it's one big mess :(
07:38<SmatZ>Rubidium: - with trunk, this savegame is from one other bugreport - tiles 51x167, 48x173 and surrounding - unpause the game and watch, or move the Query tool around these tiles
07:38<SmatZ>it does many glitches
07:38<SmatZ>problem is how should all of it be rendered fast and correctly :)
07:39<SmatZ>the track fence is drawn over the bridge's entrance, bridges have glitches
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07:53<Jerub>just made my first billion
07:54<SmatZ>Rubidium: catenary is drawn even when it is disabled - if (_patches.disable_elrails) return; should move from line 406 to 398 in elrail.cpp
07:54<SmatZ>Jerub: ctlr+alt+c ? :)
07:55<SmatZ>Rubidium: * catenary at bridges ... but even after removing catenary, the glitches in the save remain :( buhehehehe :(
07:58<Jerub>SmatZ: screenshot?
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07:59[~]dihedral is sooo happy
08:01<SmatZ>Jerub: it is really easily reproductible, see
08:03<dihedral>if only work was as interesting as ottd :-D
08:07<Rubidium>SmatZ: the "problem" are the "magic" bridges themselves
08:15<Sionide>hrm i still can't compile from svn
08:17<SmatZ>Rubidium: in openttd, is is some magic all over there :)
08:17<Smoovious>Sionide... what isn't working?
08:17<Sionide>Smoovious, just trying again to get some errors
08:19<Sionide>Smoovious, see:
08:19<Sionide>all is fine, till clear_cmd.cpp
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08:20<+glx>search the lines with <<<<< >>>>> or =====
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08:23<Smoovious>ya... unresolved conflict perhaps? ... if so, svn couldn't decide how it should be merged so gotta do it manuallly
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08:24<Sionide>oh :s
08:28<Sionide>what if i just deleted my /svn/ directory and downloaded the source again, would it work then?
08:29<@peter1138>easier to just revert
08:30<Sionide>i wanna have a try with timetables and stuff
08:32<SmatZ>peter1138: please, how do I revert using svn? I have tried a lot of things and I feel really dumb now :)
08:33<@peter1138>svn revert...
08:33<@peter1138>svn revert -R .
08:34<@peter1138>to recursively revert everything
08:35<Sionide>svn: Not enough arguments provided; try 'svn help' for more info
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08:36<SmatZ>peter1138: I feel even more dumb now, thanks :D I can't understand how could I miss that
08:36<Maedhros>Sionide: you need the full stop at the end
08:36<SmatZ>I was reverting at openttd directory, not in trunk directory...
08:36<SmatZ>so I got 'svn' directory skipped, oh...
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08:42<SmatZ>sometimes the TAB key doesn't work ( I am using linux ) - is it problem in my system or in openttd?
08:44<TrueBrain>what do you think it should do?
08:44<SmatZ>it makes the game run faster
08:44<Maedhros>in debug mode that's shift instead
08:44<SmatZ>ahhhh thanks
08:45<Maedhros>(which is pretty annoying when typing, or trying to estimate the costs of things...)
08:45<TrueBrain>I totally agree with Maedhros
08:45<+glx>because alt-tab to switch to debugger ?
08:45<TrueBrain>that always has been the main argument
08:45<TrueBrain>which I still think sucks :p But oh well :)
08:45<TrueBrain>you get used to it :p
08:46<SmatZ>well, Alt+Tab doesn't work for me anyway when if fullscreen mode...
08:46<eekee>are the keybindings configurable anywhere?
08:46<+glx>in source code yes
08:47<eekee>wonder if they can be read in from a file
08:47[~]Sionide tries alt-tab
08:48[~]eekee may look at it later
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09:09<mic>patch build_under_slopes against trunk is available :)
09:09<mic>will appreciate a lot if somebody will try to play with it :)
09:14<SmatZ>mic it is a nice patch, but there is a graphical glitch when you lower the land under some factory
09:14<mic>i fix them :)
09:14<mic>*fixed them
09:14<SmatZ>ok :)
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09:18<SmatZ>mic : got segfault, I don't know if it is because of your patch
09:18<mic>what you did?
09:19<SmatZ>I tried to lower some land
09:19<SmatZ>i will run with debugging enabled
09:19<mic>yes try debug_level map=5
09:19<mic>i need a way to reproduce bug :)
09:22<SmatZ>0x00000000004d308d in GetSlopeTileh_Track (tile=22422, tileh=SLOPE_SE) at /mnt/svn/openttd/trunk/src/rail_cmd.cpp:1787
09:23<SmatZ>I will send more info
09:23<mic>it is backtrace?
09:23<mic>it is better screen with what you tried to lower
09:27<@peter1138>- if (valid & rail_bits) return _price.terraform;
09:27<@peter1138>+ if ( valid & rail_bits)
09:27<@peter1138>+ return _price.terraform;
09:27<@peter1138>- default: NOT_REACHED();
09:27<@peter1138>+ default: return -1;
09:27<@peter1138>also not good
09:29<@peter1138>ok, strange defines all over the place...
09:30<mic>it run into NOT_REACHED(); sometimes and got crash
09:30<mic>or may not run, at least it runned before
09:31<@peter1138>it's like that for a reason
09:31<+glx>it shouldn't go into NOT_REACHED()
09:31<+glx>else your code is buggy
09:31<mic>a lot of functions crash on incorrect input
09:31<@peter1138>ok, all the defines have got to go
09:32<mic>i feed incorrect inputm i should get error, not crash
09:32<@peter1138>GIGO: don't give them incorrect input
09:32<@peter1138>big problem: DC_EXEC isn't checked
09:32<@peter1138>in your code
09:33<@peter1138>you do the tile changes even if it's just estimating the cost
09:33<mic>but it does not do anything actually
09:33<mic>it returns all back
09:33<SmatZ>what I tried - the white dot
09:34<@peter1138>where? heh
09:34<mic>it does not change any height actually - it return all back
09:34<@peter1138>oh, there
09:35<Thomas[NL]>there is something wrong with the stations rating in the latest nightly; every cargo gets rated
09:36<mic>peter1138: is it ok?
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09:36<mic>about NOT_REACHED(): i think i can return it back and test, because (as i hope) i dont have incorrect input anymore
09:36<Thomas[NL]>every cargo's rating is 69% except the one you're actually using
09:37<mic>SmatZ: excuse me, but where is white dot? :)
09:37<@peter1138>i see lots of SetTIleHeight()... so clearly it does change heights
09:38<SmatZ>mic :) the little white dot next to the just lowered piece of land at the end of the tubular bridge with train
09:39<mic>it sets heights from cache, measure several values, then set it back --- the function does nothing itself except returning 0/1, cost and error_message
09:39<SmatZ>you may download the savegame and try to lewer whole screen, it will hang
09:41<@peter1138>if it doesn't set any heights, how does it ever do anything?
09:42<mic>eh :) i meant it sets, and then sets it back :)
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09:46<mic>SmatZ: you lower before it only tile to left?
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09:48<SmatZ>mic the other side of the entracne, x-1
09:49<@peter1138>mic: ok, i see now
09:49<@peter1138>i still think that is bad, though
09:49<@peter1138>no way to determine it without changing the map?
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09:50<mic>all functions i use see requires real cell (TileIndex)
09:50<mic>use see->use
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09:51<mic>SmatZ: x-1 from what cell?
09:51<SmatZ>from the lowered cell at the end of the bridge
09:52<mic>it is NW right?
09:52<mic>right->, right
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09:53<mic>still dont understand what you lowered :) you lower 2 cells?
09:54<SmatZ>the big white dot
09:55<mic>sorry, but lowering white dot, you lowered *only* cell at x-1?
09:56<mic>*before lowering white dot
09:56<SmatZ>when I try to lower the white dot
09:56<SmatZ>the game crashes
09:56<mic>ok thanks for explanation :)
09:56<SmatZ>it was funny :)
09:57<Sacro>how does OpenTTD do color remapping?
09:58<mic>it says "would result in incorrect track", it means i need find bugs in GetSlopeFoundation
10:01<@peter1138>Sacro: it remaps colours
10:01<Sacro>peter1138: yes...
10:02<mic>peter1138: i think it will not produce errors, except if openttd is multitheaded there several threads will do something with the map
10:02<Sacro>but how?
10:02<@peter1138>it has a load of tables that state what colour index should be mapped to what colour
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10:13<Brianetta>Maedhros: You live about £5 away from me on the train.
10:13<@peter1138>Are you some kind of... stalker!?
10:14<Brianetta>No, just local
10:14<Brianetta>I wonder if he's coming to the meet
10:14<Brianetta>We could have such a party on the train
10:14<Brianetta>Me, Helen, Sacro
10:15<Brianetta>and Maedhros makes four
10:15<Sacro>lolman: you should get an earlier train
10:16<Brianetta>Helen and I will be staying overnight in Birmingham
10:16<Brianetta>It's all sorted
10:16<Brianetta>Train tickets, hotel reservation, the works
10:16<Sacro>I have my train tickets sorted
10:17<Brianetta>You'll need a packed lunch
10:17<Brianetta>It's that or go hungry, because the train's shop isn't cheap
10:18<@peter1138>Why, are you staying in the train all day?
10:18<Brianetta>Only until noon
10:18<Brianetta>Have you even tried getting to noon without snacking?
10:18<Brianetta>That's what a packed lunch is for: Eating over the course of a morning
10:18<Brianetta>You go to a shop at about lunch time for a top-up
10:18<@peter1138>Ah, of course.
10:19<Sacro>i was gonna get something at the stations
10:19<Brianetta>Travelling. It makes one hungry
10:19<Sacro>snack before i leave home
10:19<Sacro>snack at Hull Station
10:19<Sacro>snack again at Sheffield
10:19<Brianetta>Pop to the supermarket for a pasty and a Mars bar
10:19<Brianetta>Station shops? Not cheap
10:19<Sacro>i know the staff
10:20<Sacro>i'll try and see if they do ex staff discount
10:20<Brianetta>They're authorised to discount you?
10:20<Brianetta>The only thing we buy from the station is a pasty from The Pasty Shop
10:21<Brianetta>Might be pricey, but there's nowhere cheaper for a lamb & mint pasty
10:21<Brianetta>Oh, and the trains down through Newcastle are always out of change
10:21<Brianetta>because all the English coming home from Scotland are desperately trying to dispose of Scottish banknotes
10:22<Sacro>i dunno if there will be anywhere much open at that time in town for food
10:23<Brianetta>At what time? Half ten?
10:24<Sacro>i leave Hull at 9
10:24<Sacro>don't i?
10:24[~]Sacro isn't quite sure now
10:24<Brianetta>There will be plenty of places open from 8
10:25<Brianetta>I need to make sure I have a recent nightly on my laptop
10:25<Brianetta>I only have 0.5.2 on there at the moment
10:25<mic>peter1138: is it ok that it changes height? if it is not multithread it cannt break anything i think
10:25<Brianetta>and I want to give timetables a whirl
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10:31<Sacro>Brianetta: i will try and rememer to do an svn up
10:33<dihedral>Brianetta: thanks a lot for that thread post
10:33<dihedral>that is a pretty huge compliment :-)
10:34|-|alanin changed nick to Alanin
10:36[~]Smoovious thinks the last patch he posted probably has the best chance of the ones he posted, of actually getting comitted. :D
10:36<Smoovious>kept small, littlle room for tweaing. :P
10:36<Smoovious>er, tweaking
10:37<dihedral>Brianetta: though i would not agree with the "more useful" as comparing the 2 is not doable - they both have their place and do different things
10:38<Smoovious>dihedral... which thread?
10:38<dihedral>OpenTTDLib will never be able to do anything near what autopilot does
10:39<Brianetta>dihedral: Well, mine's mostly used to do things like
10:39<Brianetta>so yes, they're comparable
10:39<Brianetta>although mine's usefully embeddable into tcl/tk applications like autopilot
10:40<Brianetta>That page is written in Tcl and is a CGI script
10:40<dihedral>The requested URL /nightly was not found on this server.
10:41<Brianetta>that was th eold url
10:41<Brianetta>I forgot when I was for a moment
10:41<dihedral>he :-)
10:42<@peter1138>Out of date av8w :D
10:42<dihedral>though - a though that i think is amazingly interesting (as usual admin side thinking)
10:42<dihedral>would be a rcon socket (udp or tcp - dont care)
10:42<Brianetta>peter1138: I know, I know. I don't update the grfs often.
10:42<@peter1138>Indeed. People would only complain.
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10:43<dihedral>so that one could telnet to (for example only)
10:43<dihedral>have the output there and be able to execute rcon commands
10:44<Brianetta>dihedral: You can use telnet and screen...
10:44<Brianetta>Making an rcon socket a you suggest is trivial
10:44<Phazorx>that would be nice actually
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10:44<Brianetta>in fact, the IRC interface of autopilot has it
10:44<Phazorx>cuz access to your personal server Brianetta is too much power
10:45<Touqen>Brianetta: TELNET?!
10:45<Touqen>ssh or bust!
10:45<Brianetta>Touqen: Personally, I'm an SSH user, but I was explicily describing a telnet-like interface, and telnet is most telnet-like
10:45<Touqen>I see.
10:45<Brianetta>You can quite easily shoce a dedicated server into inetd
10:46<Touqen>I just kind of jumped in in the middle of the conversation without knowing anything about what is actually being discussed.
10:46<dihedral>if openttd would provide such a vulnerability?
10:46<Brianetta>then you telnet to the port, and the dedicated server is started.
10:46<Brianetta>You stay on there, because when you disconnect, the dedicated server quits.
10:47<dihedral>Brianetta: that aint exactly a good thing :-D
10:47<Brianetta>Great in a LAN environment where you jump on and off testing games out.
10:47<Brianetta>dihedral: The interface you want would be best done with expect
10:47<dihedral>true :-)
10:47<Brianetta>which means that the easiest way to do it is to modify autopilot
10:48[~]dihedral agrees
10:48<Brianetta>have it listen to a socket
10:48<Brianetta>make an event handler identical to the IRC one
10:48<Brianetta>well, the IRC one offers no fedback to rcon
10:48<Brianetta>because telling which lines of server output were the output of a specific command isn't trivial
10:49<dihedral>a lot of other games have the possibility of accepting rcons over udp
10:50<Brianetta>autopilot is currently getting a Tk interface
10:50<dihedral>any specific reason openttd does not?
10:50<Brianetta>(an optional one)
10:50<Brianetta>I might expand that to some tcp client
10:50<Brianetta>text or Tk based
10:50<dihedral>now that sounds amazing
10:50<mic>peter1138: i have restored NOT_REACHED()
10:51<Brianetta>I'd have to write a simple protocol
10:51<Brianetta>Probably just dumping all of the text flow to/from the dedicated server
10:51<@Belugas>ho... mic == Ev
10:51<dihedral>netcat :-D
10:51[~]Belugas is confused
10:52<mic>dont mess up with my conspiracy :)
10:53<dihedral>would it not be an idea to grab the souce of screen
10:53<dihedral>and modify it to do what you do with tcl?
10:53<dihedral>just a comment from someone who does not know
10:54<dihedral>Brianetta: check this out
10:54<stillunknown>Rubidium: lot's of spare time recently?
10:56<+glx>nice dihedral
10:57<Brianetta>dihedral: It's good
10:57<Brianetta>Writing the parsers for the UDP protocol will save a lot of people a lot of work.
10:57<Brianetta>I know how tedious it is
10:57<mic>i suggest commit every existing patch stupidly and find bugs upon impact %)
10:58<Brianetta>Especially if you support numerous versions of the protocol
10:58<Brianetta>because the docs ain't that hot
10:58|-|mic changed nick to Ev
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11:03<dihedral>on my way home... shall be with you in about an hour again :-)
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11:08<Chris82>good evening
11:09<Chris82>once again I have a compiling error question ;) *g*
11:09<Chris82> if (v->cargo.Count() >= v->cargo_cap / 2) base += _wagon_full_adder[img];
11:09<Chris82>on this line and two others
11:09<Chris82>I get the error: signed/unsigned mismatch (warning treated as error)
11:09<Chris82>r10267, didn't change anything in this line from trunk
11:10<Eddi|zuHause2>then one variable i unsigned and the other one signed...
11:10<Chris82>yeah that's what I can see from the message but why do I get it?
11:10<Chris82>is this error in the trunk?
11:11<Eddi|zuHause2>try a clean checkout?
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11:11<Sug>should the station ratings window be displaying all cargoes, even though it has never had them?
11:12<Eddi|zuHause2>i have a feeling it's related to r10266
11:12<Sug>wel thats what im using
11:12<Chris82>the error is also in a clean checkout
11:12<Eddi|zuHause2>Sug: you were not meant :)
11:13<Chris82>3>..\src\economy.cpp(1589) : error C2220: warning treated as error - no 'object' file generated
11:13<Chris82>3>..\src\economy.cpp(1589) : warning C4018: '<' : signed/unsigned mismatch
11:13<Eddi|zuHause2>Chris82: then try to revert to r10265 and check that
11:13<Chris82>is the complete error
11:13<Maedhros>it's one of those things that msvc bitches about and gcc doesn't. most of us use gcc, so we don't notice ;)
11:14<Eddi|zuHause2>Sug: it's probably a bug
11:14<Ev>why "signed/unsigned mismatch" is treated as error?
11:14<Chris82>but can't I set MSVC to ignore warnings or don't treat them as errors?
11:14<Sug>thought so, but never hurts to check. I cant be the only one to see that
11:14<Eddi|zuHause2>Ev: because MSVC is set to treat all warnings as errors
11:14<Chris82>r10265 compiles fine btw
11:15<Ev>from what version?
11:15<Eddi|zuHause2>Sug: you're not :)
11:15<Chris82>I use Visual Studio 2005
11:15<Ev>blame MS )
11:15<Eddi|zuHause2>Chris82: workaround: add typecasts in the if()
11:16<Chris82> < well according to this GCC bitches about it too lol
11:16<Chris82>I'm just checking if there's a fix for MSVC don't want to change the OTTD code
11:17<Ev>but it does not treats warnings as errors
11:17<Eddi|zuHause2>yes, remove the flag at "treat warnings as errors"
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11:17<Chris82>So if you have as example : "int <= unsigned int" condition you must replace with : "int <= (int) unsigned int" < pfff :(
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11:19<Eddi|zuHause2>Chris82: more correctly it would be if(v_int < 0 || (uint) v_int <= v_uint)
11:20<Chris82>Eddi: Where is an option "Treat warning as errors" can't find it?
11:21<Eddi|zuHause2>Chris82: i have no idea, but it is definitely there...
11:22<Eddi|zuHause2>Chris82: the problem is the representation of (int) -1 is the same as (uint) 0xFFFFFFF, so a literal check for < will fail on those two
11:22<Eddi|zuHause2>err... an F missing
11:23<Eddi|zuHause2>(assuming int being 32-bit)
11:24<Ev>can i build trams in trunk?
11:24<Eddi|zuHause2>Ev: yes, if you have a tram grf
11:27<Ev>why not add this grf too?
11:27<Eddi|zuHause2>mostly because trams were not part of TTD
11:28<Eddi|zuHause2>i also do not know of a generic tram set that would fit with the default vehicle set
11:30<Chris82>VC++ won't warn on int == unsigned int comparisons, but GCC will. IMO, GCC is right on that one, but it's a close call.
11:30<Chris82>I don't understand that line from a posting
11:30<Chris82>according to this I should get this warning in MSVC but in GCC
11:30<Chris82>but you told me otherwise before or do I understand something wrong?
11:30<SmatZ>put comparisons into brackets
11:31<SmatZ>maybe it will help
11:31<Eddi|zuHause2>SmatZ: wtf?
11:31<Eddi|zuHause2>that was like the most unqualified comment i heard in a while...
11:31<Chris82>I wouldn't call it wtf, but putting comparisons in brackets doesn't change the sentence' meaning
11:31<Ev>Chris82: simply disable option "treat warnings as errors" and forget about anything other
11:31<Chris82>well if I would just find that option somewhere :p
11:32<Ev>see project options
11:32<SmatZ>Eddi|zuHause2: I said myself wtf when i saw this ->;a=commitdiff;h=54d146525f3e5eecd508083b0c4e315a3a14f420;hp=b00b19d10375d67e9f34753b6b693479e12aeae9
11:32<Ev>"options -> compilation" something like that
11:32<Eddi|zuHause2>SmatZ: that is totally different...
11:33<SmatZ>Eddi|zuHause2: there is a defined C++ operator priority
11:33<SmatZ>so MSVC shouldn't care in that case
11:33<Chris82>I checked Tools > Options and like any submenu couldn't find it, either I'm blind or I don't know
11:34<Eddi|zuHause2>Chris82: like i said already, change the if(v_int <= v_uint) to if(v_int < 0 || (uint) v_int <= v_uint)
11:35<Eddi|zuHause2>SmatZ: a) i know there is a operator precedence, and b) there is only one operator in Chris82's case
11:35<SmatZ>Eddi|zuHause2: okaaaay i though you are talking about this -> more correctly it would be if(v_int < 0 || (uint) v_int <= v_uint)
11:35<Chris82>that's a bad solution though, I don't want to change the original code just because of my compiler :p
11:36<Chris82>I want to create a .diff file from the version I created so my daypatch gets added to trunk :p
11:36<Chris82>I don't want MSVC "hacks" in there :D
11:37<Chris82>the joke is, I find 1000s of posts saying something about a "treat warnings as errors" switch, but nowhere they write where that switch is
11:37<Eddi|zuHause2>well, a) the "hack" is definitely correct, b) some kind of change will be done anyway and c) the msvc project is part of the source code also
11:37<Chris82>and replies like "ah I found it" without saying where it is, is something I totally dislike lol
11:37<Chris82>well ok I'll change it then, I need to test my patch with the modifications I made
11:38<Ev>it was logic error actually ---;a=commitdiff;h=54d146525f3e5eecd508083b0c4e315a3a14f420;hp=b00b19d10375d67e9f34753b6b693479e12aeae9
11:38<Ev>and MSVC correctly warned
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11:40<Ev>it is first google's result
11:40<Chris82>gccwin warns too btw
11:40<Chris82>just asked my bro and he sees the same warning/error
11:41<Ev>but warning is not error
11:41<Eddi|zuHause2>maybe gcc 4 automatically replaces it with something like i did...
11:41<Ev>To treat all compiler warnings as compilation errors
11:41<Ev> 1.
11:41<Ev> With a project selected in Solution Explorer, on the Project menu, click Properties.
11:41<Ev> 2.
11:41<Ev> Click the Compile tab.
11:41<Ev> 3.
11:41<Ev> Select the Treat all warnings as errors check box.
11:41<Chris82>Thanks :D
11:42<Eddi|zuHause2>or it proves that the int var cannot be negative...
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11:45<dihedral>hello again :-)
11:46[~]dihedral cant help
11:46<Chris82> < grrrrr
11:47<Chris82>I am blind today where the hell is there a compile tab lol :D
11:48<dihedral>perhaps under c/c++?
11:49<Chris82>thanks you saved my day :p
11:53[~]Touqen shudders at vistsa
11:53[~]Sacro shudders at mIRC
11:54[~]Eddi|zuHause2 shudders
11:54<Sacro>grr, hate segfaults
11:54<Sacro>and i don't know how to use gdb
11:54[~]Sionide joins the shuddering
11:54<Eddi|zuHause2>Sacro: gdb openttd, run, bt
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11:55<Sacro>its not openttd
11:56<Sacro>don't i have to compile it with a flag?
11:56<Eddi|zuHause2>./configure --enable-debug=1?
11:57<Sacro>its not openttd :p
11:57<oxygene_>man gdb
11:57<oxygene_>man gcc
11:57<Sacro>and now it's stopped making binares
11:57[~]Chris82 missed the shudder party ;)
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11:58<Sacro>hmm, 0x090496a0 in CSpriteBase::init()
11:58<oxygene_>disable optimization, add -g flag
11:58<oxygene_>remove any striping
11:58<Sacro>ahh yes, -O -g
12:00<Sacro>0x0804951b in CSpriteBase::init (this=0x804c34c, dir=0x804ad62 "data/ship")
12:00<Sacro> at CSpriteBase.cpp:41
12:00<Sacro>41 if(!mW) mW = mAnim[count].image->w; if(!mH) mH = mAnim[count].image->w;
12:01<Touqen>I have 2800 in total assets!
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12:06<Chris82>does anybody know where the initial value of industry production when starting a new game is calculated in the source?
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12:14<Chris82>I think industry_cmd.cpp around line 1630
12:14<Chris82>need to play with it
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12:19<stillunknown>Are aircraft linked vehicles?
12:20<Rubidium>aircraft -> shadow -> rotor (when helicopter)
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12:22<Ev>is it possible non-flat rail tracks combination?
12:23<Smoovious>Chris82... yeah, I was gonna say that file too... was still looking for the exact spot, but it looks right
12:23<skidd13>peter1138: ping
12:24<Eddi|zuHause2>Ev: no, only straight tracks can be on slopes
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12:33<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r10268 /trunk/src/openttd.cpp: -Fix: some old savegames could have the wrong bits unset (follow up of r10147)
12:34<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r10269 /trunk/src/ (station.h station_cmd.cpp): -Fix [FS#912]: station ratings were shown for all cargos instead of only the cargos that have been transported.
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13:23<Ailure>Is the nightly (somewhat) stable tonight? :)
13:23<TrueBrain>who knows
13:24<TrueBrain>if you want stable, use 0.5 :p
13:24<Rubidium>Ailure: want to know, tomorrow we can probably tell you more ;)
13:24<Ailure>I mean relativly
13:24<Chris82>it is stable
13:24<Ailure>I see that the assertion errors was fixed
13:24<Chris82>I have a large game running with it
13:24<Ailure>which was the problem with yesterdays nightly <<
13:25<Chris82>r10269 with lots of patches
13:26[~]Ailure runs the game at fast-forward with full animation off
13:26<Ailure>seems like the memory corruption is fixed alright
13:27<Ailure>kinda amusing looking at the game now
13:27<Ailure>it spends most of the time at autosaving
13:27<Ailure>since it goes so fast
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13:28<Chris82>btw is it allowed to post a kind of an integrated build (like MiniIN) on the forum?
13:28<Chris82>I would ask the patch authors before of course
13:28<Ev>is such:
13:28<Ev>allowed by coding styles
13:28<Ev>if ( ... )
13:28<CIA-1>OpenTTD: truelight * r10270 /trunk/src/ (6 files in 2 dirs): -Add: prefixed the loading indicator with an arrow, up meaning vehicle is loading, down meaning vehicle is unloading
13:29<Ev>{ break; }
13:29<Ailure>I think you're allowed as long the source code is vaaible somewhere
13:29<Chris82>I'd post a .diff file anyway, not the .exe
13:29<Ailure>that should work
13:29<Chris82>but the .diff containts patches not coded by me as well
13:29<Chris82>that's why I asked
13:30<Chris82>another thing btw.... the loading indicators are not visible with transparent buildings
13:30<Chris82>I don't really like that behaviour
13:30<Ailure>Well the patches should come under same license as openTTD itself
13:30<Ev>if ( ... )
13:30<Ev>{ break ; }
13:30<Ev>is this allowed?
13:30<Ailure>Or at elast, from what I understand
13:30<Chris82>if at all I'd lock it to transparent station signs
13:30<Rubidium>Ev: look at the wiki for the coding style
13:30<TrueBrain>Chris82: open up the transparency option dialog, and switch is off
13:31<Ailure>jesus christ on a bike
13:31<Ailure>I forgot what atrocity the orginal TT AI is
13:31<TrueBrain>Chris82: it is the most right icon
13:32<Ailure>especially with how it's unable to recycle existing infrastructure
13:32<Ailure>leading to ugly road layouts in towns
13:34<Ailure>hmm 20 years without a crash
13:34<Ailure>that's stable enough for me
13:34<Chris82>hehe did you have crashes on the previous versions?
13:34<Chris82>I played the build from last night for around 35 years with no problem
13:34<Ailure>yesterdays nightly was unstable
13:35<Ev>if ((beark<f()) ||
13:35<Ailure>due to random memory corruption
13:35<Ev> (beark>g,f) ) {
13:35<Ev> break ; }
13:35<Ev>look unreadable
13:35<Ailure>which is unusual though
13:35<Ailure>openTTD is one of the few open source projects
13:35<Ailure>where the nightly is actually usable :p
13:35<Ailure>of course
13:35<Chris82>hehe I love the nightlies :D easy to compile and great new features not in the "release" version
13:36<Hendikins>That said, I find the SeaMonkey nightlies pretty usable.
13:36<SmatZ>yes, trunk is now a bit MiniIN, taking some experimental features :)
13:36<Rubidium>SmatZ: I do not agree with that statement
13:36<TrueBrain>comparing trunk with MiniIN, auch...
13:37<TrueBrain>talking about saying the wrong thing ;) Hehe :p
13:37<Ailure>miniIN is a nightmare to play
13:37<Ailure>Lots of nice features
13:37<TrueBrain>not only to play :p
13:37<Ailure>but also easy to crash
13:37<Rubidium>in MiniIN all and every patch you would give would go in without proper review
13:37<Ailure>nightmare to maintance
13:37<Ailure>which is why it was abondened
13:38<Chris82>I added all of the cool miniin features to the current nightly, there is a lot of buggy and not very useful stuff in miniin tho
13:38<Chris82>but Daylength and the Distant Station Patch are really useful in my opinion
13:38<Ailure>which why i'm glad that the strict guidelines are there
13:38<Ailure>I seen open source projects which is very happy to take in every patch in existance
13:38<Chris82>probably a reason why the nightlies are so good :)
13:39<Ailure>such as some private server project
13:39<Ev>about the coding style again:
13:39<Ev>if ((a==5) ||
13:39<Ev> (a==5) ){
13:39<Ailure>where the people behind it didn't even think of bugtesting before commiting
13:39<Ev> (a==5) ;;
13:39<Ev> (a==5) ;;
13:39<Ev> (a==5) ;;
13:39<Ev> (a==5) ;;
13:39<Ev>unclear where condition ends
13:39<TrueBrain>@kick Ev Dead Ev, use
13:39|-|Ev kicked [#openttd] DorpsGek [Dead Ev, use]
13:39<Ailure>so very often
13:39<Ailure>there are bugs that are obvious within five seconds of gameplay
13:39<TrueBrain>bad typo
13:39<TrueBrain>should have been dear
13:40<Chris82>well now you killed him already ;)
13:41<SmatZ>please excuse my words about miniin :) just I think there are many new things integrated - higher bridges, loading indicators, trams, timetables, cargo packets
13:41[~]SmatZ <-- newbie :)
13:41<Ailure>higher bridges been around for awhile
13:41<Ailure>unless i'm missing something
13:42<Rubidium>SmatZ: you meant to say that all those features we not in MiniIN, right?
13:42<@peter1138>we not in?
13:43<Chris82>were* I think
13:43<SmatZ>Rubidium: yes, but there is not MiniIN anymore
13:43<Chris82>I just write to a few patch authors if I may post an "integrated" build with their patches
13:43<CIA-1>OpenTTD: truelight * r10271 /trunk/src/ (lang/english.txt main_gui.cpp): -Fix r9563: move the Transparency Option menu item to the place it should have been in the first place: Option Menu, not Map Menu (go figure :p)
13:43<SmatZ>so thigs get earlier tested in the trunk, don't they?
13:43<Chris82>I'll just post a .diff file but it will containt quite a few nice patches
13:43<TrueBrain>finally I am no longer annoyed by looking my ass of for this menu-item :)
13:44<Chris82>haha thanks for that ;)
13:44<Ailure>haha why wasn't it moved earlier?
13:44<Chris82>I just looked my ass off myself
13:44<Ailure>I actually forgot that it was in the wrong place
13:44<TrueBrain>who knows
13:44<Ailure>I remember that in orginal TT
13:44<Rubidium>SmatZ: MiniIN was something of a non-official OTTD developer (absolutely not comparable with the -mm linux kernel)
13:44<Ailure>options stuff was under the help symbol
13:44<Chris82>damn that menu rocks =O =O
13:44<Chris82>I didn't even see this before
13:45<Ailure>the About openTTD window
13:45<Ailure>scrolls faster if you move around your mouse
13:45<Chris82>I just noticed the same
13:45<Chris82>it starts quickly, and when I stop doing anything it's like freeze-frame-view
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13:48<SmatZ>TrueBrain: great news, I didn't know about that option till now :)
13:49<SmatZ>Rubidium: aha:)
13:50<SmatZ>wow, there is a Extra viewport thing under the map menu
13:50<Ailure>I almost only use that to keep track of UFO's that have landed
13:50<Ailure>the few times I have disasters on
13:51<Ailure>I usually turn off sa the huge ufo's appear
13:51<Ailure>as that's the only disaster I find annoying
13:51<Sacro^>since when was that transparency gui there?
13:51<Ailure>mostly becuse it can take lots of time between announcment of UFO landing
13:51<Ailure>and the explosion related to it
13:51<Ailure>due to that bomber taking it's time
13:51<TrueBrain>@openttd commit 9563
13:51<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: Commit by peter1138 :: r9563 /trunk (23 files in 4 dirs) (2007-04-05 07:49:04 UTC)
13:51<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: -Feature: Add more finer control to transparency options, including a new toolbar, accessible from the map menu or Ctrl X. Patch by Wolf01.
13:52<Chris82>whoa =O and I didn't see that before
13:52<Chris82>should read the log more closely
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13:54<Sacro^>TrueBrain: do you just memorise the logs?
13:54<stillunknown>Anyone familiar with the two tick train system?
13:54<TrueBrain>Sacro^: did you notice the -Fix rXXXX in my commit?
13:54<Sacro^>TrueBrain: nope
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14:01<Smoovious><Chris82> r10269 with lots of patches <--- network game?
14:01<Chris82>yeah network game
14:01<Chris82>I test patches and grfs with my brother there
14:02<Chris82>single player is no good way to test patches in my opinion
14:02<Smoovious>not in the later stages of a patch anyway
14:03<Chris82>and except for the grass, industries and non-passenger trucks there are no original grfs used in that game I think
14:03<Eddi|zuHause2>Chris82: you happen to have an updated version of the PBS patch?
14:04<Smoovious>ah, IN... yeah, don't have that one
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14:05<Smoovious>will pass on the game... I tend to use road vehicles heavily, and the mismatched vehicles bug me. :)
14:06<Chris82>the HOV UK trucks are nice :) I prefer them to the original busses
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14:06<Chris82>and I primarily use the DB SET and AV8 set to improve realism
14:06<Chris82>especially trains become a lot more expensive with this set and they look awesome :D
14:07<Smoovious>always try to use av8... it is a must-have for all my games... (I tend to use vtol craft heavily too :) )
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14:09<Chris82>what's VTOL craft?
14:10<Prof_Frink>Vertical Take Off & Landing
14:10[~]Smoovious nod.
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14:11<Ailure>VTOL is cool
14:12<Chris82>oh I never ever use helis in the game :D
14:12<Smoovious>got some issues with the vehicle queueing in the helistation tho
14:13<Ailure>usually VTOL is used for aircraft that acts like planes in the air but lands and starts like helicopters
14:13<Ailure>such as this one
14:13<Prof_Frink>I'd rather have a Harrier, personally
14:14<Smoovious>yeah, but it still covers helicopters... and since zepps are in t he game too, saying helis will still be the wrong term... vtol is the most approriate
14:14<Smoovious>that one plane that takes off vertically would be good to have in the game
14:14<Ailure>I didn't know there was a term for aircrafts with short landing and takeoff
14:14<Chris82>that thing looks funny :D
14:14<Ailure>but there is
14:14<Smoovious>not t he harrier, but ... osprey?
14:14<Ailure>which would describe all "small" aircraft in the game
14:15<Prof_Frink>There's also VSTOL
14:15<Touqen>violently short takeoff and landing :D
14:16<Prof_Frink>No, very
14:16<Smoovious>yeah... like old NASA before the shuttle
14:16<Touqen>I prefer violently.
14:16<Touqen>Like 87 degree ascent angle
14:16<Chris82>can I add a tram grf to the game load a savegame and then use trams in it
14:16<Chris82>or do I need to start a new game for that?
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14:17<Touqen>You'd probably have more luck activating the grf while in the game
14:17<Ailure>it's possible
14:17<Ailure>but not recomended
14:17<Ailure>just open newGRF settings during the game
14:17<Chris82>:) k I try
14:18<Ailure>might work, might crash
14:18<Ailure>might require you to type "resetengines" after you applied the changes too
14:18[~]Touqen personally has never had a crash as a result of a midgame grf change
14:19<Touqen>but i'm just awesome like that
14:19<Ailure>it probably depends on the GRF I guess
14:20<Ailure>It can break a game in some cases at least
14:20<Ailure>such as removing a trainset from a game that uses it
14:20<Ailure>I seen trains turning into trains without a... engine.
14:20<Ailure>kinda amusing, but also means they won't move at all
14:21<Ailure>or at least
14:21<Ailure>they do have a engine
14:21<Ailure>but a rather stupid one
14:21<Ailure>such as coal truck
14:21<Chris82>do Trams replace some Trains actually? or are they completely added without replacing anything?
14:22<Touqen>Chris82: Depends on the grf
14:22<Touqen>TTDP grfs replace vehicles but openttd can have them be completely separate
14:22<Ailure>that was funny
14:23<Ailure>opened a game that used the UKRS
14:23<Ailure>then removed UKRS from it's newGRF settings
14:23<Ailure>the results weren't pretty :)
14:23<Ailure>trains got their engines replaced with a grain hopper
14:24<Touqen>They are some fast non moving trains.
14:24<Ailure>that too
14:24<Ailure>it was kinda funny too
14:24<Ailure>becuse when I changed
14:24<Ailure>they all started to slow down slowlyh
14:24<SmatZ>a bit scary
14:24<Ailure>to zero
14:24<Ailure>so there was a nice glide effect too
14:24<Touqen>yay realistic acceleration
14:25<Chris82>what is the x3 at the end of the waggons?
14:25<SmatZ>well, this is the case when wagons out of a depot don't have any loco
14:25<Touqen>Chris82: wait multiplier
14:25<Ailure>it's a weight modifier
14:25<Ailure>multiplier yeah
14:25<Ailure>makes the cargo in the tran
14:26<Touqen>So it makes for more "realism"
14:26<Touqen>And makes multiple head units more purposeful
14:26<Touqen>other than just looks
14:26<Ailure>more challange at least
14:26<Chris82>oh ic :) with the DBSet you have the same effect due to trains whith much lower hp
14:26<Touqen>That too
14:27<Touqen>Yea. It depends on the set though.
14:27<Chris82>you can't build 50 waggon trains anymore :D unless you put 6 engines on them
14:27<Ailure>I sometimes make really big goods trains with two engines in UKRS set
14:27<Ailure>though you can get away with one engine with one of the futuruistic engines
14:27<Ailure>that have 10K HP
14:27<Chris82>unfortunately the UKRS changes some things I don't want changed, that's why I don't use it
14:27<Chris82>but there are also cool features in it
14:28<Chris82>I think the most powerful engine (for non passenger transports) is 9500 PS in the DB Set
14:28<Chris82>but most trains are way below 5k
14:29<Ailure>usually sets have the more powerful trains for freight
14:30<Ailure>while faster trains are for passengers
14:30<Ailure>or "express" cargo
14:30<Touqen>just like... real life
14:30<Ailure>indeed :)
14:31<Chris82>the transrapid in the set is almost 20k hp I think :D lol
14:31<CIA-1>OpenTTD: glx * r10272 /trunk/src/fileio.cpp: -Fix (FS#916): remove more invalid characters from savegame names
14:32<Ailure>I think it was 10K hp as well
14:33<Ailure>8,400 HP
14:33<Ailure>the cargo maglev is 14,000 HP though
14:33<Ailure>can be noted though
14:34<Ailure>I remember reading on Transrapids page
14:34<Ailure>that maglev is unsuitable for bulk cargo :)
14:34<Chris82>I am back at play now :D just added a few new patches
14:38<Ailure>Says that goods containers are fine
14:39<Ailure>but bulk cargo like coal, ore, steel and oil isn't suitable
14:40<SmatZ>hmm, why do we use trains in ottd, when oil pipeline would be more efficient?
14:41<Ailure>Well, some of friends complained as soon they couldn't use maglev to transport coal. :)
14:41<Chris82>hmm why do they say it's not reasobable to transport oil at 500 kmh ?
14:41<@peter1138>because you can't build an oil pipeline
14:41<Chris82>I mean it's too heavy ok, but if it would be possible why shouldn't it be reasonable
14:41<dihedral>OpenTTDLib update is done :-)
14:41<Ailure>pipelines wouldn't always be suitable though
14:41<SmatZ>peter1138: probably...
14:41<@peter1138>heh, simutrans has powerlines you can build, iirc
14:42<Ailure>I belive crude oil is transported by ship from oil rigs
14:42<Ailure>but i'm not sure
14:42<CIA-1>OpenTTD: glx * r10273 /trunk/src/lang/ (hungarian.txt ukrainian.txt): -Change: remove the strings removed in r10270 from the translations
14:42<Ailure>yes it can be
14:42<Prof_Frink>SmatZ: You can build simulated pipelines if you're cunning
14:42<Ailure>though there's oil rigs with pipelines as well
14:43<SmatZ>Prof_Frink: :-) funny idea, professor :)
14:43<Ailure>someone did that once
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14:45<stillunknown>Anyone familiar with the UpdateTrainSpeed function?
14:46<@peter1138>what about it?
14:50<stillunknown>I changed the train handling from the two calls per tick, to only one.
14:51<stillunknown>And i reduced the final bitshift in that function from 8 to 7.
14:51<@peter1138>now you've got half speed trains
14:51<stillunknown>So the amount of calls to the movement code is doubled.
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14:51<stillunknown>Only side effect is, that some trains (not all) appear to go faster, little slower, faster, etc
14:54<stillunknown>And it seems to happen on trains that go slower than 90 km/h.
14:54<@peter1138>yeah, cos UpdateTrainSpeed is called less often
14:55<@peter1138>that's how realistic it is :D
14:56<stillunknown>I think it's more likely that the UpdateTrainSpeed is giving slightly different speeds every call.
14:57<@peter1138>no, updatetrainspeed keeps track of fractions internally.
14:57<@peter1138>therefore when you modify its return result, something doesn't match up
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14:58<kaan>evening all
14:59<kaan>finally weekend :D
14:59<stillunknown>if (!(v->direction & 1)) spd = spd * 3 >> 2;
14:59<stillunknown>is this viewport geometry related?
14:59<kaan>hey, speak nicely
15:01<@peter1138>stillunknown: no
15:01<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r10274 /branches/0.5/ (7 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed)
15:01<CIA-1>OpenTTD: [0.5] -Backport from trunk (r9961, r10023, r10028, r10030, r10038, r10147):
15:01<CIA-1>OpenTTD: - Fix: Some bits were unset when loading old TTD savegames when they shouldn't be unset (r10147)
15:01<CIA-1>OpenTTD: - Fix: Sprite resulting from '?' substitution was reloaded into the cache entry
15:01<CIA-1>OpenTTD: for SPR_IMG_QUERY instead of the original sprite cache entry. This resulted in
15:01<CIA-1>OpenTTD: unaccounted missing sprite cache memory, and was exacerbated because the
15:01<CIA-1>OpenTTD: original missing sprite was not cached, so it did it again and again and again.
15:02<dihedral>Brianetta: check this out (IE will work better): nice example of autopilot & OpenTTDLib :-D
15:02<dihedral>ah ... the addr
15:02<@peter1138>white text, white background!
15:03<Ailure>not on IE 6.0... though you should really make it work on other browsers.
15:03<Chris82>I see blue background
15:03<Chris82>ah ff is white :D
15:03<Prof_Frink>Chris82: That's 'cause you're using Windows ME
15:03<Ailure>yeah it's supposed to be blue
15:03<Ailure>but it's white in FF
15:04<dihedral>in firefox it is...
15:04<@peter1138><td width=400>
15:04<@peter1138><!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Transitional//EN"
15:04<Chris82>why don't you simply put the bgcolor in body?
15:04<@peter1138>nice valid html ;p
15:04<Chris82>or use CSS
15:04<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r10275 /branches/0.5/ (6 files):
15:04<CIA-1>OpenTTD: [0.5] -Backport from trunk (r10048, r10068, r10075, r10082, r10085, r10087):
15:04<CIA-1>OpenTTD: - Fix: "Deactivate Electrified Railways" did not work [FS#836] (10083)
15:04<CIA-1>OpenTTD: - Fix: Memory leaks in the networking code [FS#846, FS#844] (r10082, r10075)
15:04<CIA-1>OpenTTD: - Fix: Coverage area highlight was still show when it was turned off for docks [FS#835] (r10068)
15:04<CIA-1>OpenTTD: - Fix: Do not use override engine type for articulated wagon parts (r10048)
15:04<CIA-1>OpenTTD: truelight * r10276 /trunk/src/ (9 files in 2 dirs):
15:04<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Codechange: made a counter based on milliseconds and independent of the game-state to base double-click and TGP Generation Process on
15:04<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Codechange: renamed _timer_counter to _palette_animation_counter, as that is what it is
15:04<dihedral>once you look at the source you will know why
15:04<SmatZ>in Links it displays great - even the title icon is centered!
15:05<stillunknown>peter1138: Then what is it?
15:05<Chris82><link href="/styles/global-sbc-2007-style.css" type="text/css" rel="stylesheet" /> < at such a line to the <head></head> section
15:06<Chris82>and make a css file with body { bgcolor:#xxxxxx} xxx being your color in hex
15:06<Chris82>that'll work with every normal browser
15:06<Chris82>add* not at
15:07<@peter1138>mmm, html comments inside css
15:07<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r10277 /branches/0.5/ (9 files):
15:07<CIA-1>OpenTTD: [0.5] -Backport from trunk (10116, r10128, r10130, r10131, r10137, r10138):
15:07<CIA-1>OpenTTD: - Feature: console command to get the current game date (r10137)
15:07<CIA-1>OpenTTD: - Fix: When you got a sufficiently small resolution, there is a possibility for a division by zero when a sound is played (r10138)
15:07<CIA-1>OpenTTD: - Fix: When removing a dock, a ship will always try to reach the old location of the dock even when it cannot anymore because it the old location of the dock is now land instead of water [FS#810] (r10131)
15:07<CIA-1>OpenTTD: - Fix: SetCurrentGrfLangID returned the wrong language ids for most languages (r10130)
15:07<CIA-1>OpenTTD: truelight * r10278 /trunk/src/video/ ( sdl_v.cpp win32_v.cpp): -Fix r10276: make the _realtime_tick less demanding on the CPU
15:08|-|Ammler [] has joined #openttd
15:08<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r10279 /branches/0.5/ (5 files): (log message trimmed)
15:08<CIA-1>OpenTTD: [0.5] -Backport from trunk (r10139, r10153, r10154, r10155, r10165, r10187):
15:08<CIA-1>OpenTTD: - Fix: Do not make a 270 degree turn on the international airport when a 90 degree turn is enough (r10187)
15:08<CIA-1>OpenTTD: - Fix: Crash when trying to get the aircraft movement state of an aircraft going to a just deleted airport [FS#874] (r10165)
15:08<CIA-1>OpenTTD: - Fix: Airports did not flood when there are aircraft on the airport [FS#601] (r10155)
15:08<CIA-1>OpenTTD: - Fix: Some vehicles were not drawn when having a high resolution and a high zoom-out level [FS#870] (r10154)
15:08<CIA-1>OpenTTD: - Fix: Vehicles disappear when crossing certain tiles [FS#869] (r10153)
15:09<SmatZ>dihedral: the <img ... / > are not displayed, the <img ... > (without slash) are displayed
15:09<SmatZ>maybe I have broken browser :)
15:09<@peter1138>basically the html is fucked. but never mind.
15:10<dihedral>as it aint my website and aint my file there aint anything i could do about that blue / white page
15:10<SmatZ>dihedral: at your page, only the screenshots are displayed
15:10<Chris82><img with a / is xhtml not html
15:10<dihedral>like i said - aint my page :-)
15:11<dihedral>you know correct
15:11<SmatZ>dihedral: sorry then :)
15:11<dihedral>no - thank you for wanting to help :-)
15:12<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r10280 /branches/0.5/ (10 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed)
15:12<CIA-1>OpenTTD: [0.5] -Backport from trunk (r10109, r10219, r10222, r10230, r10246, r10258):
15:12<CIA-1>OpenTTD: - Fix: Do not look in every direction for tunnels when building one, one direction is enough (r10258)
15:12<CIA-1>OpenTTD: - Fix: Take the age of the front vehicle for station rating (r10246)
15:12<CIA-1>OpenTTD: - Fix: Terraforming wipes out canals. Now you always have to remove the canal before terraforming, instead of "just" removing the canal [FS#594] (r10240)
15:12<CIA-1>OpenTTD: - Fix: Only 2 trains could crash at one time as collision checking stopped on the first hit. This could technically cause desyncs in network games as the collision hash order is not guaranteed [FS#892] (r10222)
15:12<CIA-1>OpenTTD: - Fix: Land under foundations was terraform when it shouldn't be terraformed [FS#882, FS#890] (r10219)
15:12<dihedral>is there a standard time as in microseconds one game tick lasts for?
15:13<Chris82>74 TICKS = 2,22 seconds
15:13<dihedral>very cool
15:13<dihedral>thanks :-)
15:13<Rubidium>dihedral: there isn't
15:13<Chris82>so 0,03 secs per ticks if you wanna know exactly
15:13|-|Ammler [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
15:13<dihedral>contradicting eachother...
15:14<Rubidium>ok, it's about 30 ms per tick *if* you're not playing fast forward and *if* your computer doesn't run at 100% CPU
15:14<Chris82>ok that's right
15:14<Chris82>I was assuming that your PC can handle OpenTTD without full load
15:15<@peter1138>~ 27ms per tick if you're playing TTD
15:15<dihedral>i am more thinking of a cronjob
15:15<dihedral>query games every 3 months
15:15<dihedral>and log all stats
15:15<kaan>ok, i go to work for a week and you guys make a mad amount of commits while im away :D good job guys :)
15:16<@peter1138>16942 peter 25 0 95388 31m 7308 R 87.4 6.2 0:29.07 openttd
15:16<@peter1138>mmm, cpu usage :/
15:16<@peter1138>552 trains do that
15:17<Chris82>87.4 is the CPU usage?
15:18<@peter1138>everything goes really slow when i have the company info window open
15:18<SmatZ>the F9 window ?
15:19<@peter1138>it is just redraws
15:19<dihedral>peter1138: any ships?
15:19<dihedral>i find cpu usage goes up a mile once just a few ships are around
15:19<@peter1138>just trains
15:20<CIA-1>OpenTTD: glx * r10281 /branches/0.5/ (landscape.c video/win32_v.c):
15:20<CIA-1>OpenTTD: [0.5] -Backport from trunk (r10186, r10229, r10251):
15:20<CIA-1>OpenTTD: - Fix: [Windows] Do not mess desktop when using ALT-TAB [FS#876] (r10251, r10186)
15:20<CIA-1>OpenTTD: - Cleanup: removed duplicate include (r10229)
15:21<dihedral>anybody here fit with rrdtool?
15:21<Chris82>what CPU do you have actually?
15:21<@peter1138>athlon 1250
15:21|-|SmatZ [] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
15:22<Chris82>hmmm isn't 80% cpu with 550+ trains normal then?
15:24<Chris82>hmmm no it can't be, I have 1% cpu with 600 trains
15:24<Chris82>and that 1% is just shown once in a while, mostly it's 0
15:24<dihedral>settings such as number of towns/industries
15:24<Smoovious><SmatZ> hmm, why do we use trains in ottd, when oil pipeline would be more efficient? <--- cuz we can't build pipelines in ottd?
15:24<Chris82>high/high 1024x2048
15:24<dihedral>and mapset
15:25<dihedral>Smoovious: lol
15:25<@peter1138>Chris82: yes it's normal
15:25<@peter1138>i have no idea how you manage to have 1% cpu usage with 600 trains
15:25<Prof_Frink>peter1138: Run it on a soupercomputer
15:26<@peter1138>maybe you run 1 wagon trains or something
15:26|-|SmatZ [] has joined #openttd
15:26|-|SmatZ [] has quit []
15:27<Chris82>well they all have like 10 waggons on avarge I guess
15:27<Chris82>I build no super long trains
15:28<Chris82>and also most of my stations aren't very spread out
15:28<Chris82>I just started a new game with my brother before and we plan on building 2000+ trains for stress testing the dedicated server
15:28<Chris82>I'll if it changes
15:29<stillunknown>Chris82: What kind of magic do you use?
15:30<stillunknown>1% cpu usage is impossible
15:31<Hendikins>I call BS on it for obvious reasons.
15:31<TrueBrain>nothing is impossible; it only takes a bit longer
15:31<Chris82>it's what task manager tells me
15:31<Chris82>maybe it's because we share these trains over two companies?
15:32<dihedral>the game is paused?
15:35|-|SmatZ [] has joined #openttd
15:35<Chris82>we don't have too many vehicles yet tho
15:35<Hendikins>So what is chewing the 36%?
15:36<Chris82>that's a bug in TortoiseSVN
15:36<Chris82>wait I kill the .exe
15:37<Chris82>now better? :p
15:38<Chris82>just refresh the .png was to lazy to change the name
15:38<@peter1138>well 162+180 != 552
15:38|-|Ammler [] has joined #openttd
15:39<@peter1138>stillunknown: can you provide Chris82 with a link to the EvL savegame?
15:39<Chris82>I know I said we just started a new game
15:39<Hendikins>On a side note, I'll make sure to run 2048x2048 on dedicated.
15:39<Chris82>I'll need to upload the game .exe and grfs as well unless the savegame won't work
15:39<Chris82>otherwise not unless
15:41<Phazorx>are you testing performance of something?
15:41<Phazorx>peter1138: EvL is too close to "evil" btw :)
15:42<Phazorx>peter1138: use SML test istead
15:42<@peter1138>Chris82 appears to have UBER PCs
15:42<Phazorx>it has mroe tracks and trains
15:42<Phazorx>ahh well let's slow it down a bit :)
15:42<Phazorx>with 20 year old game :)
15:42<Phazorx>ehh.. 15 actualyl
15:43<Chris82>well it's a C2D E6600
15:43<Chris82>that's not an uber PC
15:43<Chris82>my brother has the same CPU
15:43<Phazorx>1 sek i'll give you the link
15:43<Phazorx>i asume you have grfs?
15:43<Chris82>and the dedi server has an X2 3800+
15:43<Chris82>all PCs have 2 Gig Ram
15:43<Phazorx>ttd doesnt need ram
15:44|-|Vikthor [] has joined #openttd
15:44<Phazorx>sheer power of single core only
15:44<Chris82>oh just found something interesting
15:44<Chris82>when I start a 2048x2048 game CPU usage is 0 obviously after generating the map
15:44<Hendikins>Which is why using a dedicated server for single player games on a dual core or CPU machine makes sense.
15:44<Chris82>but when I hit fast forward it's 40$
15:45<Chris82>well the dedicated server cpu usage is 1% with this game right now tho
15:45<Phazorx>Hendikins: multiple games yes
15:45<Phazorx>Chris82: thay that and go to south end station, and zoom out a bit :)
15:45<kaan>Chris82: thats probably because windows is calculation the cpu usage a bit strangely on multi core
15:45<Hendikins>Phazorx: If I'm doing a big game, it makes sense to separate it since ottd isn't multi-threaded.
15:46<Hendikins>(for the most part)
15:46<Chris82>I'll try it :)
15:46<@peter1138>Chris82: fast-foward is 'as fast as it'll go'
15:46<Phazorx>kaan: btw... can i ask mingw question?
15:46<kaan>peter1138: yes, on one core ;)
15:46<Hendikins>Windows would be calculating that as "40% of 2 CPUs"
15:46<Eddi|zuHause2>Hendikins: you have kind of an unconventional definition of "sense" :)
15:46<Chris82>oh ic, I thought it's a fixed amount of fast forward
15:46<kaan>Phazorx: sure
15:46<Chris82>40% is almost full load on one core
15:47<Chris82>50% is full load on one core
15:47<Phazorx>kaan: i'm wondering if it is possible to do profiling within mingw
15:47<Hendikins>Eddi|zuHause2: Not really. Each process can chew up a CPU to itself.
15:47<Phazorx>Chris82: really, try that savegame
15:47<Phazorx>it does require quite some power to run
15:47<Hendikins>And given the jump in CPU use when I do scrolling on a 2048x2048 map, obviously there is a perf gain from separating it.
15:47<kaan>Phazorx: I dont know, but probably yes.
15:47<Eddi|zuHause2>yes, but one process chewing up one core, or two processes chewing up two cores with exactly the same calculations...
15:47<Chris82>that savegame doesn't load
15:47<Eddi|zuHause2>there is not really a lot of "sense" in there...
15:48<Chris82>found unknow tag in savegame
15:48<Phazorx>kaan: i'm inetresting in doing that, but not sure how to procede
15:48<Chris82>wait I need to compile a standard exe I guess
15:48<Phazorx>also not sure about validity of results
15:48<Phazorx>doesnt load?
15:48<Chris82>nope unknown tag in savegame
15:48<Chris82>did you save it with an unpatched version?
15:48<Eddi|zuHause2>btw. some dual core processors have the ability to overclock one core if the other core is idle
15:49<Phazorx>Chris82: it's regular 10170
15:49<kaan>Phazorx: well you got me there, I dont even know how to do profiling on linux ;)
15:49<Eddi|zuHause2>only that feature will never work in windows, because it constantly switches the processes between the cores
15:49<Phazorx>kaan: i see, thanks anyway
15:49<kaan>np :)
15:49<Eddi|zuHause2>it's a funny unoptimisation :)
15:49<Phazorx>wait, why would you switch procces ebtween cores?
15:50<Chris82>Eddi: The EIST feature of the C2D downclocks the CPU to 1.63 GHz, it's only at full speed when I hit fast forward or generate a map for example
15:50<Chris82>generating a map fully loads one core
15:50<Phazorx>what happens to I/D level1 cache?
15:50<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause2: even windows can set processor affinity
15:50<Chris82>yes that can help a lot if you want to run two performance hungry apps at the same time
15:50<Phazorx>i'm surprized that game doesnt load for you Chris82
15:50<Eddi|zuHause2>windows can do a lot of things... but the average user will never be able to enable those features
15:51<Eddi|zuHause2>but i think they meanwhile provided a patch for the above...
15:53<Chris82>I just compile a nightly without patches Phazorx
15:53<Phazorx>patches shouldnt really prevent you from loading vanilla saves
15:53<Phazorx>vice versa it wont work tho
15:53<@peter1138>they will if the patches aren't applied correctly, or just not updated
15:53<Chris82>maybe I should've disabled grfs ?
15:54<+glx>Phazorx: you can do profiling using -pg and gprof
15:54<Phazorx>-pg ?
15:55<+glx>configure --enable-profiling does that
15:55<+glx> CFLAGS="$CFLAGS -p"
15:55<+glx> LDFLAGS="$LDFLAGS -pg"
15:55<Phazorx>ahh i see
15:56<Phazorx>and what about validity of results?
15:56<Phazorx>within mingw env
15:56<+glx>function calls should be the same in all env :)
15:57<@peter1138>and of course, only compare like with like
15:57<Phazorx>i meant mingw, being sort of emulated environemnt
15:57<Chris82>missing grf files have been disabled
15:57<Phazorx>and gprof running withi it
15:57<Chris82>that shouldn't be a problem Phazorx right?
15:57<+glx>mingw is not an emulated env
15:57|-|Purno [] has quit [Quit: Life is a game of pick-up-sticks, played by fucking lunatics.]
15:58<kaan>let me see if i got this right, profiling is compiled into the exe? does it display in the console then?
15:58<+glx>mingw built exe are native exe
15:58<Phazorx>Chris82: not sure, i tihnk iy is not critical tho
15:58<Phazorx>i'll give you link for cooper's grf oack
15:58<Phazorx>1 sek
15:58<@peter1138>kaan: depends on the profiling implementation, i guess. with -pg it saves it to a binary file which is processed later
15:59<kaan>peter1138: ok, then what is processing it later then?
16:00<Phazorx>glx: i could be wrong then even to worry about that
16:00<Phazorx>since the point is that profiling isnt realtime
16:00<@peter1138>a program that analyses the data. gprof in this case
16:00<kaan>oki, thanks
16:00<@peter1138>i imagine MS VS will have a totally different method of profiling
16:00<Chris82> 24% on that game
16:00<kaan>i guess thats a linux program, and that could probably run well under mingw
16:01<Phazorx>Chris82: looking at a station i presume?
16:01<@peter1138>looking at a town, heh
16:01<Chris82>oh no just at the place where the viewport started
16:01<+glx>kaan: gprof is included in mingw IIRC
16:01<Chris82>I find a station with some trains
16:01<Phazorx>Chris82: south end :)
16:01<@peter1138>well, i guess i need to go and get that E6600 or something, then
16:02<kaan>nice, thanks for the details :)
16:02<Chris82>Train 445 is lost *g*
16:02<Phazorx>HQ is actually there
16:02<Phazorx>Chris82: yapf borks due to weird mainline
16:02<Phazorx>it is too long and has too much stuff in it
16:02<@peter1138>frankly i'm disgusted
16:03<Chris82>haha nice station :D
16:03<Chris82>with fully zoomed out at that location I get almost full load on the CPU
16:03<Phazorx>that's Osai's stylefor ya
16:03<@peter1138>i mean, admittedly my pc is over 6 years old, but still...
16:03<Chris82>one one core
16:03<Phazorx>Chris82: almost full = full
16:03<Chris82>44% is not full
16:03<Phazorx>windows can not give you 100% unless you set priority
16:03<Phazorx>especialy vista
16:04<Chris82>50% is the max openttd can have anyway
16:04<Chris82>it's not multi core
16:04<Phazorx>i suggest give it priority
16:04<+glx>50% == 100% of one core
16:04<@peter1138>Phazorx: dual core. it'll use the other cpu for the stuff would normally consume 10% on a single core cpu
16:04<Chris82>when I set priority to high of openttd.exe it's 47-50%
16:04<Chris82>with normal it's 42-45%
16:04<@peter1138>(simplified. it's all spread over of course)
16:05<stillunknown>Is the speed difference between buses and trains also removed?
16:05<@peter1138>stillunknown: there is no speed difference
16:05<stillunknown>previously buses went 2x as trains
16:05<stillunknown>for their speed rating
16:05<Phazorx>Chris82: realtime priory will show you what it actualy is
16:05<Phazorx>it will be 50%
16:05<@peter1138>for rating, yes, but not actual speed.
16:05<stillunknown>a few months ago
16:05<kaan>hmmm, seems that prissi is giving up on the passengers with destinations patch -->
16:06<Eddi|zuHause2>stillunknown: no, it was just an internal difference, they effectively went same speed
16:06<Brianetta>dihedral: How did you prepare your webcam?
16:06<dihedral>it aint mine
16:07<@peter1138>the internal difference is still there. but the speeds are the same
16:07<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r10282 /branches/0.5/ (intro_gui.c main_gui.c players.c strgen/strgen.c):
16:07<CIA-1>OpenTTD: [0.5] -Fix: compilation without networking support.
16:07<CIA-1>OpenTTD: [0.5] -Fix: crashes with subsidy messages when using Korean as language.
16:07<Brianetta>There's text
16:07<Brianetta>in white
16:07<hylje>kaan: oh well :\\
16:07<dihedral>look at it in IE
16:07<Brianetta>I can't
16:07<Chris82>hmmm very interesting
16:07<Brianetta>IE doens't run in Linux
16:07<dihedral>it does
16:07<Chris82>when I don't select the openttd window the process only uses around 20% cpu with your game
16:07<Chris82>why is that?
16:08<Chris82>the trains don't move slower when I select another window
16:08<Chris82>at least they don't seem slower when watching them
16:08<dihedral>but it does have a downside: get the bundled vulnerabilities of windows on linux :-D
16:09<Phazorx>Chris82: it is priority management
16:09<Prof_Frink>More importantly, I'm allergic to IE
16:09<dihedral>if you are using firefox and have the webdeveloper plugin, simple edit html and remove the second <head> and <body> tags
16:09<Chris82>so what does your game tell me?
16:09<Chris82>OTTD needs multi core support :D:D
16:10<@peter1138>yeah, right
16:10<Phazorx>Chris82: go into NE crner and disable animation plz
16:10<Brianetta>Can anybody give me the current trunk SVN URI?
16:10<Phazorx>then i'd like to know how much CPU used for logic/pf
16:10<Brianetta>that easy (:
16:10<Chris82>turning off animation and/or full detail doesn't change anything
16:10<Phazorx>it does
16:11<Phazorx>i think about half of CPU load goes to sprite managem,ent
16:11<Chris82>CPU is still ~44%
16:11[~]Brianetta checks out the trunk
16:11<Phazorx>esp on that gam,e with a lot of fast moving trains on screen
16:11<Phazorx>Chris82: zoom in max, look at water in NW corner
16:11<Brianetta>I'd update, but my checked-out copy is pre-Makefile-shift
16:11<dihedral>turn off all details and set resolution to 1,1 :-D
16:11<Phazorx>scroll so nothing in the screen
16:12<Chris82>24% with and w/o animation and detail
16:12<Brianetta>Reduce resolution for increased performance
16:12<Phazorx>Chris82: there
16:12<Chris82>still doesn't change anything
16:12<Phazorx>that means game can have 2x trains
16:12<Phazorx>and half of power goes to gfx
16:12<dihedral>run a desert game :-D
16:12<Phazorx>that is a desert one
16:13<Chris82>ah when I resize the window from maxed to tiniest possible there's about 5% CPU difference
16:13<dihedral>run a 64x64 map for 8 companies :-D
16:13<Chris82>but the full animation and detail settings don't change anything only window sized changed cpu load
16:13<Rubidium>Brianetta: you can just svn up from before the makefile changes
16:13<dihedral>btw Brianetta i had a though
16:13<Chris82>1280x1024 is full size window
16:13<Phazorx>Chris82: try look at station and play with detail animation
16:13<Brianetta>Rubidium: Last time I tried that I had hundreds or orphaned files
16:13<@peter1138>Rubidium: it's painful though
16:14<Chris82>yeah I did, didn't change anything
16:14<@peter1138>exactly :)
16:14<Brianetta>Many of them newgrfs, etc
16:14<Chris82>it didn't matter if I was at a station or at water
16:14<dihedral>you could add a trigger so that a screenshot is made when a certain output appears right?
16:14<Rubidium>oh, yes, that could happen
16:14<Phazorx>Chris82: strange usualy it does
16:14<Chris82>overall load at water was lower but it didn't change with the settings only because no trains were in the viewport
16:14<Phazorx>Chris82: details i couldnt care less
16:14<Phazorx>but water has animation
16:14<dihedral>Brianetta: how about creating a screenshot when a ack packet comes from the masterserver?
16:15<Phazorx>wont be a major factor but for sake of experiment it would be nice to compare apples to apples
16:15<dihedral>Brianetta: then the line "advertising on masterserver" or something similar is printed to stdout
16:15<Phazorx>here i have it at 80-90%
16:15<Chris82>going from 640x480 to 1280x1024 noticable increases CPU load
16:15<Phazorx>looking at water with 10200
16:15<Chris82>but I see no difference with animation changed
16:15<Chris82>no matter where I am on the map
16:16<Brianetta>dihedral: Don't get too enthusiastic about screenshots. Dedicated server won't have them forever.
16:16<dihedral>Brianetta: as that ack packet is a udp packet, OpenTTDLib could request autopilot to make a new screeny
16:16<Chris82>I quickly need to build a few trains
16:16<Chris82>my brother has twice as many as I already :D
16:16<Phazorx>hmm.. btw... is it easy to expand server to 16 ppl ?
16:17<dihedral>Brianetta: not forever means probably at least as long as 0.7 has not been released
16:17<dihedral>thats another year :-D
16:17|-|Ammller [] has joined #openttd
16:18<Brianetta>Phazorx: No
16:18<Rubidium>uhm, trunk already has a "null" blitter for dedicated, so it won't draw anymore. However, you can override the blitter to something that still does draw.
16:18<Phazorx>Brianetta: how come?
16:18<Brianetta>dihedral: It's there until the dedicated server is cleaned up
16:18<Brianetta>Phazorx: Something to do with many assumptions in the code
16:18<Phazorx>btw... interesting... ottd comes up as 1st link on googling "mingw setting up svn" :)
16:19<Phazorx>Brianetta: so it is not global constant?
16:19<kaan>Phazorx: nice :)
16:19<Phazorx>i guess some cleanup is needd then
16:19<Phazorx>kaan: worrying
16:19<Phazorx>i can see where need for bottd comes from tho :)
16:20<kaan>its way more popular that i would have ever imagined :)
16:20<Phazorx>ottd or bottd?
16:20<kaan>I thought that i was pleasing maybe 20 people with it
16:20<Phazorx>ahh well... assumptions :)
16:21[~]Brianetta ./configures
16:21<Phazorx>Brianetta: sad, reason i asked - we had a few cases on cooper's public when there was more than 10 ppl interested at same time
16:21|-|Ammler [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:21<Brianetta>Phazorx: Yeah, it's a problem.
16:22|-|Ammller [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
16:24|-|Sacro^ [~Ben@adsl-87-102-81-232.karoo.KCOM.COM] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
16:24<Eddi|zuHause2><Phazorx> hmm.. btw... is it easy to expand server to 16 ppl ? <- i think there was a 16 players patch once upon a time...
16:24<stillunknown>Is it normal that cargo packets consumes so much cpu?
16:24<Phazorx>Eddi|zuHause2: i'd like to see soemtihng like that trunked
16:25|-|Ammler [] has joined #openttd
16:25<Phazorx>aside of cleanup - it's hard for me to believe that it is a challenging coding job
16:25<Eddi|zuHause2>that lies not in my powers :p
16:25<Eddi|zuHause2>"cleanup" in itself is usually very challenging
16:25<stillunknown>Rubidium: ping
16:26<Phazorx>peter1138: , how were you profiling it btw?
16:29<Phazorx>as server? all output to null?
16:29<@peter1138>yes, to null
16:30|-|Chris82 [] has quit [Quit: playing]
16:31<SmatZ>Phazorx: <-- pretty old patch ( 16 companies )
16:31|-|Touqen [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:32<Rubidium>16 companies... that's now impossible to have without major changes
16:33<stillunknown>Rubidium: Is it the resource comsumption of cargo packets normal?
16:33<Phazorx>i am fine with companies
16:33<Phazorx>but not clients
16:33<Eddi|zuHause2>but for coopers, the amount of companies does not really matter, the amount of clients matters, and i believe 10 is a pretty arbitrary number
16:34<Rubidium>stillunknown: it makes you use a little more memory and a little more CPU; not much as far as I could determine.
16:34<stillunknown>Were was the cpu usage "hidden" previously?
16:34<Rubidium>what cpu usage would be hidden?
16:35<stillunknown>Were would it have been when profiling?
16:35<Rubidium>in lots of locations
16:35<@peter1138>under the sofa
16:35<Rubidium>but the most called would be loadunloadvehicle I guess
16:35<@peter1138>that's where it's hidden
16:36<stillunknown>That can't be it, it only represents 0.5% cpu usage.
16:36<stillunknown>While cargo packets consumes 15% (including leak check).
16:36<Rubidium>stillunknown: why can't that be it?
16:36<Rubidium>how much does the leak check take?
16:36<@peter1138> 18.75 4.34 4.34 1000 0.00 0.00 CheckCargoPacketLeaks()
16:37<stillunknown>9.77 here
16:37<@peter1138>but that's temporary
16:37<Rubidium>well, that's only meant to be temporary anyway
16:37<stillunknown>I know that.
16:37<stillunknown>AllocateRaw takes more than 5%,
16:37<Phazorx>dont temporary things go as "patch" ?
16:38<stillunknown>Temporary as a new feature, and making sure it's not broken.
16:38<kaan>you mean that you are going to do something else for cargopackets?
16:38<Rubidium>Phazorx: not when you want something to be tested good
16:38<stillunknown>By doublechecking some things.
16:38<kaan>oh, i see
16:38<Rubidium>stillunknown: so AllocateRaw + leak check == 14.95 % ?
16:39<stillunknown>more like 15.5%
16:39<Rubidium>but the rest is negligable?
16:39<stillunknown>Although i'm not being fair, i'll check a trunk copy, to get proper numbers.
16:39<@peter1138>the rest is nothing
16:40<@peter1138>AllocateRaw is slow because it loops every existing packet
16:40<stillunknown>CargoList is 1%
16:40<stillunknown>CargoList:Packets is 1%
16:40<Rubidium>stillunknown: loading an old savegame?
16:41<@peter1138>most likely
16:41<stillunknown>Rubidium: yes
16:41<stillunknown>Is that bad, if so why?
16:41<Rubidium>then it's probably mostly saveload conversion stuff
16:41|-|Bjarni [] has joined #openttd
16:41|-|mode/#openttd [+o Bjarni] by ChanServ
16:42[~]stillunknown has unified all vehicle tick functions into one
16:43[~]peter1138 profiles with new savegame
16:43[~]oxygene_ has rewritten viewport.cpp, but don't tell anybody
16:43[~]Prof_Frink rewries peter1138
16:43[~]SmatZ rewrites history
16:44<@peter1138>AllocateRaw() drops down to 1.93%
16:44<Phazorx>ughm... are mingw compiled binaries do not use global GRF path?
16:45<Phazorx>i dont see it in -d misc=4 output at all
16:45<Rubidium>Phazorx: what version?
16:46<Phazorx>i just got trunk
16:46<@peter1138>3851 vs 8362 calls to allocateraw
16:46<kaan>stillunknown: nice, when do we see the pacht? :D
16:46<@Bjarni>hi kaan
16:47<@Bjarni>long time no see
16:47<@Bjarni>it has been like a week
16:47<kaan>hi Bjarni
16:47<stillunknown> <-- i have not updated it with todays work, but will soon
16:47<kaan>yup, i got a job
16:47<@Bjarni>a job?
16:47<kaan>yes, evening shift
16:47<Rubidium>Phazorx: it should show in the top of the log
16:47|-|benc_ [] has joined #openttd
16:48<@Bjarni>doing what?
16:48<Phazorx>Rubidium: i see it in precompiled binaries
16:48<Phazorx>but dont see in mingw one i made
16:48<kaan>hold on: Im testing video conferencing equipment for Tandberg and Cisco
16:48<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r10283 /trunk/src/elrail.cpp: -Fix [FS#913]: catenary was drawn on bridges when elrail was disabled. Patch by B. N. SmatZ!.
16:49<SmatZ>wooohooo I feel so good when my patch is commited ^_^
16:49<stillunknown>kaan: patch updated
16:50<kaan>so my education is officially useless now, im working as "ufaglært"
16:50<stillunknown>Which is?
16:50<kaan>stillunknown: thanks, ill take a look
16:50<kaan>i dont know the proper english translation, but its a job that requires no previus skill or education
16:51<@Bjarni>ufaglært = uneducated (like only mandatory schooling)
16:51<stillunknown>And you did have non-mandatory education?
16:51<Phazorx>Rubidium: any ideas why it behaves liek that?
16:51<Rubidium>have you tried make mrproper
16:52<kaan>i have a minor education in computer science
16:52<Rubidium>and a ./configure
16:52<Rubidium>and what does svnversion tell you?
16:52<stillunknown>kaan: define minor
16:52<benc_>kaan: what'd you do before?
16:53<kaan>2½ years, one bit too short for being a bachelor
16:53<Phazorx>$ svn checkout svn://
16:53<Phazorx>U trunk\src\elrail.cpp
16:53<Phazorx>Checked out revision 10283.
16:53<Phazorx>$ svnversion
16:53|-|Alanin changed nick to alanin
16:53<Phazorx>is that supposed to make sense?
16:53<kaan>I have run my own business and lately i have been working as a temp
16:53<stillunknown>kaan: but at what "level"?
16:53<Rubidium>well, it means you have r10075 with modifications
16:53<kaan>business college
16:53<Phazorx>Rubidium: isnt checkot = full checkuout ?
16:54<oxygene_>maybe update?
16:54<Rubidium>well, I *never* do checkout after an initial checkout, I always do an update
16:54<@peter1138>Phazorx: cd trunk; svnversion ...
16:54<Phazorx>$ pwd
16:54<@Bjarni>hey that company ain't that far from Nørup... you are in luck :)
16:55<Phazorx>Rubidium: i did some weird stuff there and was trying t override that
16:55<kaan>I know, its darn great job too
16:55<@Bjarni>btw I was in Ny Nørup last weekend
16:55<@Bjarni>and I came to think about you
16:55<@peter1138>Phazorx: so you did do svn checkout svn://; cd trunk; svnversion ?
16:55<stillunknown>kaan: (supposedly) around here only higher level computer is worthwhile
16:56<stillunknown>Not that i know very well (i don't do computer science).
16:56<@Bjarni>however... it was kind of late, like after 10 O'clock in the evening and I was heading home
16:56<Phazorx>oucj my bad
16:56<kaan>you get to sit down with a factory full of nerds and talk about HiFi and stuff like that all day ;)
16:56<Phazorx>i svnupped from trunk
16:56<stillunknown>kaan: higher level computer science i meant
16:56<benc_>there's always professional certs
16:56<@Bjarni><kaan> you get to sit down with a factory full of nerds and talk about HiFi and stuff like that all day ;) <-- you aren't supposed to do some productive work?
16:57<Brianetta>Speeding up the game breaks the timetables
16:57<kaan>stillunknown: well I was unlucky enough to graduate right after the IT bubble burst so my whole class is having very muchj trouble ever getting a job
16:57<Brianetta>All my trains started at once, and crashed into each other ):
16:57<Phazorx>that's a feature :)
16:57<Brianetta>Timetables are a tad useless when there's no fixed reference point
16:58<Brianetta>Getting the trains to sync with each other is very nearly impossible
16:58<kaan>Bjarni: yes of course, we test both audio and video of the equipment, oh and then the computer runs a few tests too and then we register it :D
16:58<Phazorx>Brianetta: s-bahn like network, for loading only portion of passengeers from every station
16:58<@Bjarni>that kind of job
16:58<Eddi|zuHause2>yeah, there should be like absolute times (e.g. first of a month/year)
16:58<stillunknown>kaan: I'm glad i'm not computer science.
16:58<Brianetta>Phazorx: That was random
16:59<stillunknown>kaan: not doing (i'm skipping words today)
16:59<Phazorx>i meant that as a usage case for timetables
16:59<Brianetta>I want to use timetables for the same reason as real train companies
16:59<oxygene_>computer science is fine for me ;)
16:59<kaan>stillunknown: my experience tell me that it is much better as a hobby than it is as a job ;)
16:59<Brianetta>which is to ensure that a train doesn't get in the way of others
17:00<@Bjarni>kaan: that depends on the job
17:00<benc_>IT's really a very wide industry
17:00<Brianetta>unfortunately, because the timetables are only relative to the time that this particular train was last reset, it's not useful
17:00<stillunknown>I suppose university level computer science is decent.
17:00<kaan>Bjarni: true, but at this point in time im not going to get a great job anymore, unfortunatly
17:01<Brianetta>I had two trains serving a single line, time separated
17:01<Brianetta>it was a taxing job getting them timed so they'd miss each other predictably
17:01<Brianetta>I've no idea how I'd cram a third one in
17:05|-|Vikthor [] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
17:06|-|Sacro [~ben@adsl-87-102-80-216.karoo.KCOM.COM] has joined #openttd
17:07<Brianetta>Hey Sacro
17:07<Brianetta>Had any fun with timetables?
17:08<Smoovious><Brianetta> All my trains started at once, and crashed into each other ): <--- sounds like a signalling issue. :P
17:09<benc_>r10266 causing some warnings-as-errors on MSVC8
17:09<benc_>train_cmd.cpp(466) : warning C4018: '>=' : signed/unsigned mismatch
17:09<benc_>roadveh_cmd.cpp(100) : warning C4018: '>=' : signed/unsigned mismatch
17:09<benc_>economy.cpp(1589) : warning C4018: '<' : signed/unsigned mismatch
17:10<Phazorx>[SRC] Compiling openttd.cpp
17:10<Phazorx>C:/BuildOTTD/msys/home/ottdsrc/trunk/src/openttd.cpp: In function `bool AfterLoadGame()':
17:10<Phazorx>C:/BuildOTTD/msys/home/ottdsrc/trunk/src/openttd.cpp:2066: error: expected prima ry-expression before '<<' token
17:10<@peter1138>you can your conflicts
17:11<Phazorx>so, that is me...
17:11<Sacro>hey Brianetta, a bit yeah
17:13<Phazorx>and how do i resolve that automatically?
17:13<Eddi|zuHause2>svn revert -R .
17:13<Eddi|zuHause2>removes all custom patches you have applied
17:15<CIA-1>OpenTTD: truelight * r10284 /trunk/src/players.cpp:
17:15<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Fix [FS#899]: in the unlucky event 2 clients join at the same time to start a
17:15<CIA-1>OpenTTD: new company while there is only one spot left, all clients became spectator. Now
17:15<CIA-1>OpenTTD: only make either one of the joining clients spectator (much more game-friendly
17:15<CIA-1>OpenTTD: ;))
17:15<Smoovious>conflicts are differences that couldn't be merged automatically...
17:15<Rubidium>*WHY* does MSVC complain about uint >= uint / uint
17:15<benc_>cargo_left is int
17:16<CIA-1>OpenTTD: truelight * r10285 /branches/0.5/players.c:
17:16<CIA-1>OpenTTD: [0.5] -Backport from trunk (r10284):
17:16<CIA-1>OpenTTD: - Fix: don't make everyone spectator if 1 joining client failed to create new company (r10284)
17:16<Rubidium>benc_: that's another issue
17:16<benc_>for the one you're talking about, try 2U?
17:16<benc_>yes, ms is silly like that
17:17<Rubidium>well, I can't try because I don't own Microsoft stuff
17:17<benc_>just tried
17:17<benc_>2U works
17:18<Rubidium>and cargo_left is meant to be int
17:18<benc_>while cap is uint
17:20<Rubidium>hmm, on the other hand cargo_left could be cast to a uint there as it's always positive
17:20|-|HMage [] has joined #openttd
17:21|-|HMage [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
17:21<benc_>er, cargo_left looks like it should be uint to begin wih
17:21<benc_>it's getting set from a uint in LoadUnloadStation
17:21<Rubidium>benc_: no, it shouldn't
17:21<+glx>no because it can be <0
17:22<Rubidium>glx: it CAN be
17:22<benc_>for (uint i = 0; i < NUM_CARGO; i++) cargo_left[i] = st->goods[i].cargo.Count();
17:22<+glx>Rubidium: we were saying the same :)
17:22<benc_>uint CargoList::Count() const
17:22<Rubidium>hmm, I'm messing with those signs again
17:22<Rubidium>benc_: we're substracting from it a lot
17:23<Rubidium>basically cargo_left becomes: cargo in station - free places for cargo in all loading vehicles
17:23<dihedral>this timetable stuff - does it influence the cargo rating at the station?
17:23<+glx>cargo_left[v->cargo_type] -= cap; <-- like this
17:23<oxygene_>whats the warning of MSVC?
17:23<benc_>ok, i see
17:24<benc_>sorry, hadn't fully grokked that part of the code yet, really just meant to report the compile warnings:)
17:25<CIA-1>OpenTTD: truelight * r10286 /trunk/src/players.cpp: -Fix r10284: nice typo (tnx glx)
17:25<Rubidium>benc_: <- that solves it?
17:28<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r10287 /trunk/src/ (economy.cpp roadveh_cmd.cpp train_cmd.cpp): -Fix (r10266): some surprises from that (almost always) complaining compiler...
17:28[~]benc_ snickers
17:29[~]Prof_Frink mars
17:29[~]peter1138 sleeps
17:30<Eddi|zuHause2>i'm still sad about veronica mars...
17:31[~]glx is waiting for end of S3
17:32<Eddi|zuHause2>actually, here they are still in the middle of S2... and they're showing it during the night...
17:32<+glx>they showed all dubbed episode they had
17:32<+glx>now we are waiting for the next
17:33<Sacro>is there a better way to check for a file in a folder than using "echo * | grep openttd*.pkg,tar,gz" ?
17:33<stillunknown>glx: What are you talking about?
17:33<Eddi|zuHause2>dubbed is almost always worse...
17:34<Sacro>actually, rm -f will do the trick on its own...
17:34<+glx>french dubbers are good
17:34<Eddi|zuHause2>especially when they are heavily playing with words in the original
17:34<Rubidium>Sacro: find?
17:34<Brianetta>Sacro: Most people use ls instead of echo * because ls puts each file on a separate line
17:34<Brianetta>Easier to grep
17:34<stillunknown>Talking about some tv show?
17:35<Sacro>Brianetta: but ls fails with an error when nothing is matched
17:35<Brianetta>You also don't need to grep
17:35<Brianetta>You're echoing *
17:35<Brianetta>you could try echo *tgz *pkg *gz etc
17:36<Sacro>i actually don't need to echo
17:36<Sacro>i can use rm -f
17:36<Prof_Frink>Sacro: ls openttd<tab><tab>
17:36<Sacro>which doesn't fail with an error
17:36<Sacro>Prof_Frink: not in a shell script :p
17:36<Brianetta>Well, you started by asking how to check for a file, not how to just delete one
17:36<Sacro>rm -f openttd*.pkg.tar.gz && versionpkg && pacman -U openttd*.pkg.tar.gz
17:36<Eddi|zuHause2>glx: i found that german translations were good until i actually watched things in original
17:36<Sacro>Brianetta: yes, cos rm failed with an error
17:37<Brianetta>Well, you didn't tell us that until later
17:37<valhallasw>what is the cosine of remove?
17:37<Sacro>i was gonna check for it existing and then remove it
17:37<Sacro>but -f does it without problems
17:37[~]valhallasw runs
17:37<Brianetta>indeed it does
17:38<Brianetta>another way would be: if [ -f file ] rm file
17:38<Sacro>yes, that was what i was heading for
17:38<Sacro>and then realised it was a silly idea
17:38<Prof_Frink>Sacro: or replace the && with ; and screw the error ;)
17:38<Sacro>Prof_Frink: that won't help
17:39|-|Smoovious [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:39<Sacro>if there are 2 packages, then the upgrade command will fail
17:42<CIA-1>OpenTTD: truelight * r10288 /trunk/src/train_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#202]: also age engines that aren't front-engines (based on a patch by kaan)
17:43<kaan>hey, what do you know
17:43<Rubidium>benc_: are you able to do that review of the inflation calculation code?
17:43<kaan>so it was useful after all :)
17:44|-|oxygene_ [] has quit [Quit: tritratrullalla]
17:46[~]Sacro plans some l33t shell scripting
17:47<Sacro>Brianetta: is it if [-f file] rm file fi ?
17:49<kaan>LOL its one line of code :)
17:49<Phazorx>hmm.. i like how it takes weeks gametime to load unload cargo on station but in depots, when wagons are changed it is instant :)
17:50<benc_>depots are magical places to begin with
17:50<Phazorx>hmm... how do i limit gametics for profiling ?
17:51<Phazorx>and do i need to sync randoms for comparing apples to apples?
17:53<Sacro>anyone here know sed?
17:53|-|Progman [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:53<Phazorx>Sacro: i have limited experience, why ?
17:53<Sacro>i have a line ^PKGREL=$number
17:54<Sacro>i want to be able to alter $number using a sed statement
17:54<Sacro>is it simpler than just s/^PKGREL=*/^PKGREL=$number/
17:54<Phazorx>alter as in replaced with fixed string for all occurences ?
17:55<Sacro>no, it will be under $1
17:55<Sacro>its in a shell script
17:55<Phazorx>i mean is the pattern for target replacemtn fixd or not ?
17:55|-|Thomas[NL] [] has joined #openttd
17:56<Sacro>if [ $# -eq 1 ] sed -i s/^pkgrel=*/^pkgrel=$1/ fi
17:56<Sacro>does that look right?
17:57<Sacro>actually, i need to replace the whole line
17:57<Phazorx>^ matches start if line
17:57<Phazorx>not "^" character
17:57<Sacro>yes, i need to match the start
17:57|-|Smoovious [] has joined #openttd
17:57<Sacro>otherwise it will also alter the line that does svn up -r $pkgrel
17:58<Phazorx>it looks right on sed part but i'm not sure on quotting necessary for bash
17:58<Phazorx>to make $1 actualy work
17:58<Sacro>hmm, you think it will use $1?
17:58<Phazorx>i dont know
17:58<Phazorx>suggest echoing it 1st
17:59<Phazorx>s/^pkgrel=*/pkgrel=$1/ tho
17:59<Eddi|zuHause2>enclose with '.'
17:59<Sacro>Eddi|zuHause2: ?
17:59<Brianetta>You'll need to \$
17:59<Brianetta>because $ means end of line
17:59<Eddi|zuHause2>to prevent bash from evaluating anything
18:00<Sacro>Brianetta: an excellent point
18:00<Phazorx>Brianetta: $1 is for bash
18:00<Sacro>Eddi|zuHause2: i *want* bash to evaluate
18:00<Phazorx>as intended, $1 will be replaced by string
18:00<Sacro>i want bash to evaluate, but not sed
18:00<Sacro>but hmm
18:00<Brianetta>So what's this script doing?
18:00<Sacro>if i backspace escape it
18:00<Sacro>then might that stop bash from parsing it too
18:00<Eddi|zuHause2>well, yeah, it gets evaluated before sed is called
18:01<Phazorx>Sacro: sed also likes quotes i'm not sure how bash would get around that that's what i meant
18:01<Eddi|zuHause2>but can you be sure that "$1" will not contain characters that have special meanings for sed?
18:01<Phazorx>cuz it is sed 'blah'
18:01<Phazorx>Eddi|zuHause2: it's a number looks like it
18:01<Sacro>i've almost got it
18:01<Sacro>how do you get sed to replace the whole line?
18:01<Sacro>is it /g?
18:02<Brianetta>sed s/this/that/g
18:02<Sacro>it seems to be appending
18:02<blathijs>That would be all the matches on the line
18:02<Brianetta>this was this good -> that was that good
18:02<blathijs>not the whole line per se
18:02<Sacro>it keeps appending $1
18:02<Brianetta>whole line: s/^.*$/something/
18:02<blathijs>was this really good -> that
18:03<blathijs>add ^$ to flavour :-)
18:03<Sacro>now it prepends it after the =
18:03<Brianetta>Sacro: What's the script doing?
18:03<Sacro>Brianetta: its to autobuild an ArchLinux package
18:03<Brianetta>I can't even picture what you have, let alone what you mean by appending
18:03<Sacro>if i don't specify a revision
18:04<Sacro>it will use HEAD, which works, but if i specify a revision, it has to modify the pkgrel=... line
18:04<Brianetta>I'd use a token
18:04<Brianetta>basically, a variable
18:04<Sacro>which then gets called as svn up -r $pkgrel
18:05<blathijs>what was wrong with the line you posted earlier?
18:05<blathijs>only that * should be .*
18:05<Sacro>should it?
18:05<Brianetta>Why not just use $PKGREL
18:05<Brianetta>Default it to *, and change it to $1 if $1 is set
18:05<Sacro>i don't think i can do that
18:06<Sacro>the package builder isn't that dynamic
18:06<blathijs>good luck, I'm off to bed
18:06<Brianetta>What is the package builder?
18:06<Sacro>i was going to do that to automatically generate the pkgrel for head
18:06<Phazorx>why did i muted myself :/
18:06<Brianetta>To be honest, this looks like a job for if / then / else
18:08<Sacro>the script that autobuilds head might be able to be hacked
18:08<Brianetta>I wouldn't know
18:08<Brianetta>I don't even know what this script looks like
18:09<Sacro>it sources the PKGBUILD
18:09<Sacro>grabs the $pkgrel in it
18:09<Sacro>and then does s/^pkgrel=$pkgrel/^pkgrel=$newpkgrel/
18:09<Sacro>and that works
18:09<Phazorx>^ in replacement looks unneeded
18:09<kaan>night all
18:10<Sacro>Phazorx: probably nto
18:10<Sacro>but it makes me feel better
18:10<Phazorx>it will put that char there
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18:10<Phazorx>question about profiling - how do i limit ticks?
18:10|-|Bjarni [] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
18:10<Sacro>hmm, i wonder if this will work
18:11<Rubidium>Phazorx: limit ticks in what sense?
18:11<Rubidium>make them take longer, or just "only do 1000 ticks" ?
18:12<Rubidium>what are you testing? Graphics or some backend code?
18:13<Phazorx>with -v null
18:13<Rubidium>-v null limits to 1000 ticks
18:13<Phazorx>hmm... really ?
18:13<Rubidium>i.e. it fast forwards 1000 ticks and then stops
18:14<Phazorx>that makes it aufully simple
18:14<Phazorx>and random seed?
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18:14<Phazorx>do i need to take special precaution, if i use special config
18:14<Rubidium>-G XXXX
18:15<Phazorx>Rubidium: i know how to do that question is if it is need
18:15<Rubidium>if you load a savegame the random seed will be the same
18:15<Phazorx>will i get identical result if i run it twice with save save and save config?
18:16<Rubidium>for new games you need -G XXXX
18:16<Phazorx>it's a save
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18:24<Phazorx>Rubidium: will that unpause the game as well?
18:24<Phazorx>and how long do 1000 ticks last in game time ?
18:25<Eddi|zuHause2>one day is 74 ticks or so
18:25<Phazorx>so it is rather fast
18:26<Phazorx>am i wrong about doing dedicated serverr profiling tho?
18:26<Rubidium>that won't stop automatically
18:28<Phazorx><Rubidium> i.e. it fast forwards 1000 ticks and then stops
18:28<Phazorx>apllies only to client?
18:28<Rubidium>well I think -D overrides -v
18:28<Rubidium>well I think -D overrides -v null
18:28<TrueBrain>Rubidium: no
18:28<Phazorx>ahh i see
18:28<Sacro>i just realised something
18:28<TrueBrain>-D only doesn't override -b
18:28<Sacro>versions pre the makefile rewrite won't work :(
18:30<Sacro>right, it checked out rev 10000 nicely
18:30|-|lolman_ [] has joined #openttd
18:30<Sacro>lolman: changes :p
18:30<Eddi|zuHause2>Sacro: and that is a problem, why?
18:30|-|lolman [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
18:30<Eddi|zuHause2>now see what you did! :p
18:30<Sacro>Eddi|zuHause2: i wanted to do "versionpkg --revision 1" and it build and install nicely
18:31<Sacro>i'll have to rewrite the PKGBUILD to handle the older svn revisions
18:31<Sacro>that could be fun
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18:33<Sacro>$2 won't work
18:34<ln->patrouille de france was nice.
18:34|-|helb [~helb@] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
18:35<Sacro>does anyone here understand using shift with getopts?
18:35|-|helb [~helb@] has joined #openttd
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18:38|-|Sacro [~ben@adsl-87-102-80-216.karoo.KCOM.COM] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
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18:39<Sacro>[INSTALL] Cannot install. Not compiled with installation paths
18:39<Sacro>never seen that befor
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18:41<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r10289 /trunk/src/strgen/strgen.cpp: -Fix [FS#735]: {COMPANY} takes two arguments. As this was not properly accounted for the plural rule used the second argument of {COMPANY} instead of the later {COMMA}.
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18:43<Sacro>now i figured it
18:49|-|Ordep [] has joined #openttd
18:52<Ordep> :)
18:52<Ordep>you know where its this file
18:52<Rubidium>eekee: what keyboard layout has the w and l near to eachother
18:53<Rubidium>Ordep: on your TTD CD rom
18:53<eekee>Rubidium: Algoan
18:53<CIA-1>OpenTTD: truelight * r10290 /trunk/src/industry_cmd.cpp: -Fix: with smooth_economy, when industry production hit 32, it stayed there for ever. Give it some chance to get out of that uber-lowness (although it is a very slim chance, at least it has one)
18:53<Sacro>Rubidium: qwelty?
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18:54<Eddi|zuHause2>rmao :p
18:55[~]Sacro hates foreign keymaps
18:55<Sacro>confuses me
18:55<Sacro>in one day i had to use qwerty, qwertz and azerty
18:55<eekee>Used to confuse me, but somewhere around the time I switched from ST to PC I had to get used to such changes
18:55<Sacro>i am english, hence i shouldn't have to change
18:56<eekee>Actually, I say "get used to", but if you're always switching keyboards you will type slower, I find
18:56|-|Ordep [] has joined #openttd
18:56<eekee>Sacro: Would you prefer British or American keyboards? I have both, right now, lol
18:56|-|Ordep [] has left #openttd []
18:56<Eddi|zuHause2>it was always fun when you had to find all special keys if you had a boot disk without "keyb" on it to change to german layout
18:57<eekee>oh yes
18:57<Sacro>eekee: British
18:57<Sacro>american confuses me too
18:57<eekee>Same here, ideally
18:57<Sacro>i can never find |
18:57<eekee>It's on the #
18:57<Eddi|zuHause2>where typing "kezb gr" was usually the easiest version :)
18:57<Sacro>and # is where £ is
18:57<eekee># is shift-3, ~ & ` are all mixed up...
18:57<Sacro>and they even call # £
18:58<Sacro>stupid americans
18:58<eekee>yeah ~.~
18:58<Sacro>£ is the pound sign
18:58<Sacro># is a hash
18:58<Sacro>or an octothorn
18:58<Eddi|zuHause2>but you got insane if you had to search for characters like ':', '\' or even '+'
18:58<eekee>that dates from waaay back where some printers actually replaced # with £ in their character encoding, I think
18:59<eekee>7-bit ascii
19:00<eekee>comments in most unix-y config files must have looked funny
19:00<Eddi|zuHause2>i know that i never ever used the ~ character until win95 came out
19:01<eekee>I remember liking the old ISO layout, but don't recall much now. I remember : was next to ; rather than being shift-; , was much nicer for using vi, lol
19:01<Eddi|zuHause2>here ; is shift-, and : i shift-.
19:01<eekee>I think ' was shift-; though, which wasn't so nice
19:02<eekee>ah yes
19:02<eekee>here it's < and > respectively
19:02<Eddi|zuHause2>> is shift-<
19:02|-|ProfFrink [] has joined #openttd
19:03<eekee>oh yes, that's what the \| key of a UK keyboard becomes with US layout
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19:03|-|ProfFrink changed nick to Prof_Frink
19:03<Eddi|zuHause2>the worst part for programmers is usually that the {[]} keys have to be used with AltGr
19:04<Eddi|zuHause2>i don't have a problem with that actually
19:04<eekee>well it's alright if you're handling inputs properly anyway
19:05<Eddi|zuHause2>the worst problem with the american layout, besides the y-z switch is that you need shift to get +
19:05<eekee>yeah, not keen on that. Another thing the ISO layout fixed
19:06<Eddi|zuHause2>here the +/*/~ key is next to the return key (normal/shift/altgr)
19:07<eekee>#~ here, & a little bit of a nuisance.
19:07<Eddi|zuHause2>and the -/_ key is next to the right shift
19:07<Eddi|zuHause2>no, + is above #
19:07<Eddi|zuHause2>the # key is really annoying there
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19:08<Eddi|zuHause2>it used to be above the return key (with a shortened backspace)
19:08<Eddi|zuHause2>and the return was bigger
19:08<Eddi|zuHause2>and now i always hit both keys
19:08<eekee>The last kb I had put #~ up by the backsace, making the backspace single-key size & the return a full size. That was a nuisance, but I don't particularly like #~ by return either, lol
19:09<Eddi|zuHause2>i don't use backspace that often, it does not need to be supersized
19:09<eekee>I liked the ST layout, had #~ on the far side of the right shift, but the whole kb was wider iirc
19:09<eekee>I do!
19:10<Eddi|zuHause2>well, i probably use 'e' far more often than backspace...
19:10<Eddi|zuHause2>and that is not supersized either...
19:10<eekee>biggest annoyance I find is insert & delete, particularly with Gtk+ 2.x which gives no clue as to whether you're in insert or overwrite mode, which steenks!
19:10<Eddi|zuHause2>i think 'e' is used far more often in german than in english
19:11<eekee>er, e is like, under your fingers, backspace is further otu. That's myy problem with it
19:12<eekee>yy.. I think this keyboard has a little bounce. Maybe why I stopped using it; that & it predates Windows keys :)
19:12<Eddi|zuHause2>i don't have that kind of problem...
19:12<Eddi|zuHause2>my problem is much more that i hit return instead of backspace...
19:12<eekee>heh, I did that more with the smaller backspace ^^;
19:12<Eddi|zuHause2>get one with tux keys :)
19:13<eekee>Eddi|zuHause2: would love to :D but I'm gonna get a unicomp terminal emulator instead. Gettign url...
19:13<Eddi|zuHause2>have you seen those logitech keyboards that have a supersized del key, and place the ins key totally wrong?
19:14<eekee>nope, but I'd like to
19:15<eekee>I very briefly was able to use an actual IBM terminal kb of the same layout & construction of that unicomp kb. Very nice :D
19:17<benc_>kind of ironic that keyboards styled after ones from two decades ago are so much better
19:17<eekee> That's what I want to mod the unicomp kb to, or something like it :D
19:17<benc_>than the micro-sized, media-enhanced stuff oems spit out :)
19:17<eekee>*shivers* yes...
19:18<eekee>although I find I don't mind laprtop kbs.
19:18<benc_>using an ext kb with a laptop is just too clunky
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19:18<Eddi|zuHause2>i usually hate laptop keyboards for their misplacement of special keys like the arrows
19:19<eekee>flat :) Cherry have a good rep, but afaik only the IBM design Unicomp licensed has a curved base so the keys actually go down at different angles
19:19<benc_>i have a particular bizarre laptop kb, i think toshiba engineers rolled dice to figure out which keys they'd arbitrarily swap
19:19<eekee>oh yes...
19:19<eekee>I have an old iBook. With Apple key bindings it's not too bad, but it's a US layout, lol
19:22<Eddi|zuHause2>you don't get US layout problems with "das keyboard" :)
19:23<eekee>Abble did an iBook with blank white keys. It scares me, lol, as does Das Keyboard :D
19:23<mikegrb>I have an ibook with blank keys
19:24<mikegrb>well it did have blank keys, from wear
19:24<mikegrb>got a new macbook and wife made me buy a new keyboard for the ibook before giving it to her ;)
19:24<eekee>mine's not that far gone, one careful lady owner before I got hold of it, lawl
19:24<eekee>heh ^^
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19:26<eekee>It's funny that the Das Keyboard page should mention mechanical keyswitches, because all the cheap rubish kbs I've had in the last few years have ahd them
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19:26<eekee>(not Cherry switches, obviously)
19:27<Jerub>there was once an apple ibook keyboard made by fingerworks
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19:27<Eddi|zuHause2>i have thought about buying a "das keyboard", but it does not seem to come in a wireless version :(
19:28<eekee>ooh, looks rubbery o.o;
19:28|-|SmatZ [] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
19:28<Jerub>eekee: it's not rubbery, it's a flat touch sensitive surface, like a trackpad on a laptop
19:28<eekee>ah! hmmmm
19:29<Jerub>I have a touchstream lp at work.
19:29|-|Hendikins [] has joined #openttd
19:29<eekee>was it hard, like a laptop trackpad?
19:29<eekee>that would give me rsi, lol
19:30|-|DJ_Mirage [] has quit [Quit:]
19:30<eekee>or.. hmm, I think it would
19:30|-|skidd13 [] has joined #openttd
19:30<Eddi|zuHause2>i hate touchpads on laptops... they are always where i want to put my hands
19:30<eekee>hehe, yeah, they're evil like that
19:31<Hendikins>eekee: Thought you were going back to bed :P
19:31<dihedral>someone here fit with rrdtool?
19:32<Smoovious>NoAI is getting merged into trunk already?!
19:32<dihedral>i would need a rrd database :-)
19:33<eekee>Hendikins: gonna let my dinner go down & have some more to eat.
19:33<CIA-1>OpenTTD: truelight * r10291 /trunk/src/town_gui.cpp: -Fix [FS#920]: double click in town-GUI didn't work as expected
19:33<eekee>my iBook has a "prevent accidental trackpad input" option that works for me, & I've seen a similar option on a Windows laptop
19:34<eekee>what's NoAI?
19:34<Smoovious>it is one of the branches, dedicated to the development of a new AI system, that would be extremely configurable... allowing for different AI's to be used
19:35<Smoovious>would be cool for different computer players to run different AI's... so they have their own personality. :)
19:35<eekee>yeah :D
19:35<eekee>oh hey, why does turning all news off make the game smoother? (giant map)
19:36<eekee>er, & that's in multiplayer, just as a client
19:36<+glx>less things to display
19:36<Smoovious>less to sort
19:36<eekee>*shrug* ok
19:36<Smoovious>that too
19:36<dihedral>a learning ai :-D
19:37<eekee>*wish* :D
19:37<dihedral>set it to record for 3 full games and after that the others will not know who is playing
19:37<dihedral>even chattative?
19:38<eekee>Silent player B)
19:40<skidd13>why not a cooperative AI for dummy work, eg. balance the number of vehicles on a shared order.
19:41<Smoovious>cuz an AI is supposed to behave in a manner that is comparable to a real player... if a player can't do it, neither can the AI...
19:41<Smoovious>they aren't meant to compensate for dummies :P
19:43<Phazorx>can AI be separated from mane code
19:43<Phazorx>and be connecatbale as virtual player
19:43<Phazorx>i'd love to do logic for that, assuming it will be not integrated into code and can be externalized
19:43<dihedral>what a catchy tune Sacro
19:43<eekee>AI client.. I don't really know the network protocol, but I think so
19:44<Smoovious>from what I understand, you'll be able to design your own AI's for it... I think it is based on squirrel, but I don't know
19:44<+glx>it is
19:45<Smoovious>so it is. :D
19:46<Sacro>dihedral: yes, most people think that
19:48<Sacro>somehow 660MB of ram is being used
19:48<Sacro>how do i find out where its all gone :\
19:49<Sacro>top has 1777172k used
19:49<Sacro>thats like
19:49<Sacro>1.7(ish) gig
19:49<dihedral>is there any data, that is consistent during one game ?
19:49<eekee>size of the map :D
19:50<dihedral>*one* game
19:50<dihedral>not *all* games
19:50<dihedral>sorry - my bad- did not emphasis correctly before
19:51<Smoovious>type of scenario
19:51<eekee>Well, diferent games may have different sized maps. I thnk you're looking for some kind of key you can use to ID a game, right?
19:51<dihedral>data that is different from one newgame to another newgame!
19:52<Smoovious>not sure, but... is the random seed value saved?
19:52<dihedral>it is at least not sent
19:52<Smoovious>wouldn't be perfect, but it would be unique enough to be practical
19:52<dihedral>but yes - random seed would do it
19:53<Smoovious>it has to be sent... or the other players wouldn't sync
19:53<dihedral>ah - yes
19:53<dihedral>perhaps with a tcp connection
19:53<dihedral>but i only got a udp connection
19:53<Smoovious>probably when the game data is sent
19:54<Smoovious>how do you get udp only and not tcp? it is the same connection
19:55<dihedral>that is how :-D
19:55<Phazorx>eekee: emulated client
19:55<Phazorx>it can be local as well
19:55<eekee>Phazorx: yeah
19:55<Smoovious>well, sorry, but I'm not really motivated enough to chase/retype the url's...
19:55<Smoovious>no browser on this computer
19:56<Phazorx>it would be nice to have global KB for AI too
19:56<Phazorx>knowledge base
19:56<Phazorx>studying more promissing moves
19:57<dihedral>smovious: just remember OpenTTDLib and search the forums next time
19:57<Smoovious>me, I'm planning on writing an intentionally bad AI... not one that plays stupidly, like the legacy AI, but just plays bad... :)
19:58<+glx>'getseed' in the console gives the seed
19:58<dihedral>i shall write an ai that will watch my servers for ai's that are playing badly and kick them
19:58<dihedral>glx: that still does not send it udp to OpenTTDLib
19:59<Smoovious>uh huh
19:59<dihedral>unless of course there are tcp queries that can be done without me having to be a client
19:59<dihedral>and i doubt that !
20:01<eekee>how is server name, # of companies etc retrieved before connection?
20:01<dihedral>1. query master server
20:01<dihedral>2. get ip's and ports
20:02<eekee>O.o ok
20:02<dihedral>2. query those
20:02<dihedral>all udp!!
20:02<Smoovious>doncha mean 3. ?
20:02|-|Markkisen [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:02<eekee>seems wierd to use udp for small quantities of non-time-critical data, but what do I know
20:02<dihedral>i said *as far as i know* :-D
20:02<Smoovious>2 2's?
20:03<dihedral>eekee: usually most game data like that is done udp
20:03<Smoovious>must have gone to an american school...
20:03<dihedral>i dont know anything bejond that
20:03<eekee>*shrug* ok.
20:03<dihedral>that is why i had issues with the 16 bit integers today
20:03<dihedral>actually 4 bit
20:03<eekee>16-bit now? heh
20:03<dihedral>hell i should know 3
20:03<dihedral>just kidding
20:04<dihedral>Smoovious: i was having issues with getting php to handle 64bit integers... just to fill you in
20:04[~]Smoovious nods.
20:10[~]eekee sleeps
20:18<@Belugas>I like it :D
20:18<@Belugas>although not finished...
20:19|-|XeryusTC [] has quit [Quit: Solong, and thanks for all the fish.]
20:20<mikegrb>I hate it.
20:20<Ailure>holy shit
20:20<Ailure>is that openTTD?
20:20<mikegrb>(because it is not in my copy)
20:20<Ailure>You should post a compersation with TTDpatch
20:20<Ailure>I forgot how it looked like, but I think it was kinda similar
20:20<Ailure>just without that coloured square
20:20<@Belugas>it is ottd indeed :)
20:21<@Belugas>mikegrb, what dislikes you in those screenies?
20:21<Ailure>The square thing is a neat addition though
20:21<mikegrb>(because it is not in my copy) <-- Belugas, this
20:21<@Belugas>it will...
20:22<@Belugas>Ailure, the gui is a bit like ttdpatch's one,
20:22<@Belugas>but i discovered afterward it was based on the same idea.
20:22<@Belugas>although, mine is resizeable, ttdp not
20:23<Ailure>due to the flexible GUI code?
20:23<@Belugas>mine highlights the selected indiustru, ttdp not
20:23<@Belugas>yeah quite a bit more flexible...
20:23<Ailure>I recall reading about such internal changes before.
20:24<Ailure>Nothing that users notice right away, but it makes for faster and easier devolopment for programmers :p
20:24<@Belugas>Recently? yo must be referencing the cpp_gui branch then...
20:24<Ailure>for some itme ago I mean
20:25<@Belugas>or maybe the widget branch? a while ago
20:25<Ailure>at least I could swear seeing such changes in the trunk log
20:25<Ailure>the widget thing
20:25<@Belugas>yeah... that was quite a challenge :)
20:25<Ailure>Well, it's worth it if it saves future headache
20:27<+glx>and now we can even use double click for some things
20:28<Ailure>only annoyance I have with the UI
20:28<Ailure>is the 'hidden' stuff
20:28<Ailure>like holding down ctrl while cloning to make it share vehicle orders
20:29<Ailure>While I know quite well how to do that, it's sometimes a bad idea to hide features behind "shortcuts"
20:29<+glx>right click tells you about that
20:29<Ailure>or hotkeys
20:29<Ailure>it does
20:30<+glx>(for ctrl stuff not for shortcuts)
20:30<Ailure>I also like how far you can zoom out now
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20:31<Ailure>makes the minimap obsolote sometimes :p
20:31<Ailure>well, I still use it for finding industries heh
20:32<skidd13>@availible dev: I fixed the issues of the random town layout ( peter1138 listed. Is it OK now?
20:35[~]Belugas reads
20:37|-|Eddi|zuHause2 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:38<@Belugas>it seems the comment i added is no longer required, with "CheckSavegameVersion(69)" :)
20:39<@Belugas>on skidd13's patch...
20:39<@Belugas>i wrote that little part (iirc)
20:39<@Belugas>but not as it is right now
20:39<@Belugas>peter1138 make skidd13 changed it in a more ... simple way
20:40<Smoovious>as long as you're peeking at stuff... I posted a real tiny patch FS#914
20:42<@Belugas>saw that today, yes
20:42<@Belugas>i kinda remember it has been discussed too
20:42<@Belugas>in a positive way ;)
20:43<Smoovious>gonna ruin my track record
20:43<Smoovious>lemme re-do it so it goes way against coding style
20:44<Smoovious>btw, spending tonight working on getting my chat window patch current again... and changed... had some ideas to do a couple things differently on it
20:44<Smoovious>and just gonna start over on my subsidies one
20:44[~]dihedral is amazingly tired and will get to bed now
20:45[~]dihedral waves back
20:45<dihedral>it is terrible when gravity is experienced with eye-lids
20:45<dihedral>Belugas how are you doing?
20:45<dihedral>happy weekend up ahead?
20:45<skidd13>damned late here too... nearly 4am.... night
20:46<Smoovious>I just use gravity to tell me which way I should pour the milk in my cap'n crunch
20:46|-|skidd13 [] has left #openttd []
20:47<Jerub>I've gotta say, the most annoying thing about long trains (20+ carriages) is how long they spend at 61km/h leaving depots
20:47<@Belugas>dihedral, 3 days long we yeah :
20:47<@Belugas>lot of time to rest ;)
20:47<dihedral>yeah... if used to rest :-D
20:48<dihedral>Smoovious: your patch: + case WKC_F1: case WKC_PAUSE: ToolbarPauseClick(w); break;
20:48<dihedral>case something: case something ??
20:48<dihedral>i have no idea
20:48<dihedral>just looks odd :-)
20:49<dihedral>yeah - forget it...
20:49<+glx>dihedral: we use that at many places
20:49<@Belugas>going to bed. see you soon
20:49<dihedral>i expected stuff like that to strech over 2 lines
20:49<dihedral>enjoy your sleep in Belugas
20:50<dihedral>too tired to think straight
20:50<dihedral>not a good idea to be looking at code when i cannot even look out of my eyes!
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20:54<Sacro>don't you people sleep?
20:54<Sacro>fair enoguh
20:55<Smoovious><dihedral> case something: case something ?? <--- yeah, but it matched identical to the other one in there, so thought it best to stay consistent
20:55<Smoovious>Sacro... does passing out count as sleep?
20:56<Sacro>Smoovious: depends
20:58<TrueBrain>I am bored
20:59<TrueBrain>we no longer have small bugs
20:59<TrueBrain>very annoying
21:00<TrueBrain>so go and find some!
21:00<Sacro>TrueBrain: fix pbs
21:01<TrueBrain>to fix something, it needs to be there in the first place
21:01<dihedral>yeah - that goes through as "small"
21:01<dihedral>fix the lack thereof
21:01<TrueBrain>give me a 16 bit _m8, and you have your PBS
21:02<Sacro>why do my trains slow down *every* time they hit a corner
21:02<Smoovious>on the helistation, if a heli is coming out of the depot to a pad, the other helis there wait til the depot heli parks on a pad before taking off
21:02<dihedral>what is _m8?
21:02<TrueBrain>something I am making up right now
21:02<Sacro>TrueBrain: add _m8
21:03<dihedral>if you need friends... well - then i dont know
21:03<dihedral>but add_m8 sure sounds like it
21:03<TrueBrain>see, to have PBS, every train needs to leave some data on the rail
21:03<TrueBrain>letting know it was there
21:03<TrueBrain>after that it kind of is a piece of cake
21:03<TrueBrain>as there is a 16bit vehicleID to store
21:03<TrueBrain>I need 16 bit s free :)
21:03<dihedral>mapsize << trainnumber << tiles_with_tracks_on
21:04<+glx>isn't there enough space with m7 ?
21:04<TrueBrain>glx: I was just checking that
21:04<TrueBrain>for normal rail there is now
21:04<dihedral>and what is m7?
21:04<Sacro>TrueBrain: all it needs to do is reserve the track with 1 bit
21:04<TrueBrain>for tunnels
21:04<TrueBrain>for bridges
21:04<+glx>should be ok for station too I think
21:04<Sacro>well, 1 bit per trackdir
21:04<TrueBrain>Sacro: hahahahahaha
21:05<TrueBrain>glx: I only don't have enough bits for road/rail crossing
21:05<TrueBrain>but as it never can be a junction, it might not be that big of a problem
21:05<TrueBrain>Sacro: just think for a second about your claim
21:05<TrueBrain>just for a sec
21:05[~]Sacro thinks
21:05<TrueBrain>a train, reserves tiles
21:05<TrueBrain>but.. how the fuck does he know he is the one reserved them?
21:06<Sacro>cos when the next one asks... its told no
21:06<TrueBrain>if you modify the track, the PF finds an other route
21:06<TrueBrain>and oh dear.....
21:06<Sacro>they already are reserved
21:06<TrueBrain>yes, but when he asks himself that
21:06<Sacro>just like the old PBS :p
21:06<TrueBrain>he gets too: no!
21:06<Sacro>i'm sure thats more complex than is needed
21:07<TrueBrain>but if you store the vehicle ID, you can at least track it for real
21:07<TrueBrain>anyway, that would be my intake into PBS
21:07<TrueBrain>I am sure others think differently :)
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21:08<+glx>an always red system would be nice
21:08<TrueBrain>glx: and I miss 3 bits for stations
21:08<TrueBrain>always red system?
21:08<Sacro>glx: i have got an always red system here
21:09<Sacro>thing is... its *always* red
21:09<TrueBrain>okay, now I am going to ask the very tricky question: how does TTDP do it?
21:09<Sacro>TrueBrain: download their source :p
21:09<Sacro>i still get more amusement from my NOR signals
21:10<+glx>I meant default red
21:10<TrueBrain>bah, my way into PBS will fail too :p
21:10<TrueBrain>so, I gave it a spin :)
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21:12<benc_>how far ahead would trains be reserving track for PBS?
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21:12<Sacro>benc_: hopefully it would depend on its stopping distance
21:13<TrueBrain>Sacro: normally PBS works from signal to signal
21:13<TrueBrain>else it is possible it has to stop in the middle of a PBS blocks
21:13<TrueBrain>which can cause 1) deadlocks, 2) is silly, as there are no signals :)
21:13<benc_>sounds like a pretty sparse matrix then
21:13<benc_>might be worth looking into storing track reservations in a tree
21:14<Sacro>TrueBrain: what do you mean?
21:14<dihedral>what happened to the pbs that once was there?
21:14<benc_>(TileIndex, VehicleID) tuples as the key
21:14<TrueBrain>dihedral: it was bugged beyond repair, and nobody cared to fix it
21:14<benc_>er, TileIndex as key, VehicleID as value
21:14<TrueBrain>so we reverted so we could release a stable version, and nobody fixed it to get it back in
21:15<TrueBrain>but I think the idea was bugged by design
21:16<Sacro>@openttd commit 3471
21:16<@DorpsGek>Sacro: Commit by Darkvater :: r3471 branch/pbs/ (2006-01-29 18:41:39 UTC)
21:16<@DorpsGek>Sacro: - Branch PBS and remove it from trunk. Interested people can fix/rewrite it wholly in
21:16<TrueBrain>benc_: checking if a tile is available makes it rather hard
21:16<Sacro>it was a sad day :(
21:16<TrueBrain>Sacro: it depends on your point of view :)
21:16<Sacro>TrueBrain: insane user of PBS
21:17<TrueBrain>Sacro: sure it was sad to see it being removed from trunk, but it did prevent us from releasing any stable version
21:17<benc_>TrueBrain: if the tree is keyed on TileIndex, checking if a tile is available should be O(log n)
21:17<Sacro>TrueBrain: i thought PBS was fine
21:17<TrueBrain>which means we still were in like as latest stable? :)
21:17<Sacro>you just had to know how to use it
21:17<TrueBrain>Sacro: haha :) I define that as unstable :)
21:17<Sacro>wasn't it pre 0.4.0?
21:17<TrueBrain>Sacro: I have applications where you can't press on certain places; advise of helpdesk: don't press there
21:17<TrueBrain>benc_: but yo need to scan all vehicles :)
21:17<Sacro>PBS was fine
21:18<Sacro>just don't build on a junction thats got trains running on it
21:18<TrueBrain>Sacro: the bug-list was longer then my arm, but let's not get into that
21:18<benc_>i don't follow
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21:18<benc_>why scan all vehicles?
21:18<Hendikins>I liked PBS, bug laden as it was.
21:18<TrueBrain>oh, you mean a stand-alone list
21:18<TrueBrain>someone should have kept on syncing the pbs branch :)
21:19<Sacro>TrueBrain: me and DaveWorley tried to remerge it
21:19<Sacro>actually, i might give it another go tommorow
21:19<TrueBrain>benc_: hmm, not a bad idea in fact, was it not it takes a lot of memory.. the question is: how much
21:20<TrueBrain>as you also need to store by track-bit for 2 cases
21:20<benc_>also, if you used a map array, wouldn't you need _m8 AND _m9? one tile can contain two NS or EW tracks
21:20<TrueBrain>(the 2 cases you can have 2 independant tracks that don't cross on a tile)
21:20<TrueBrain>I can store one in existing _m
21:20<TrueBrain>the second doesn't fit indeed
21:20<benc_>oh thats right, vehicleid = 16 bits
21:21<TrueBrain>sad aint it? :)
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21:21<TrueBrain>if only the PF always returned the same route for all PFs, would make it much easier :)
21:23<benc_>could always politely ask players to not create junctions, would solve the whole problem ;)
21:23<TrueBrain>haha :)
21:23<TrueBrain>it indeed solves it all ;)
21:24<TrueBrain>but okay, the other idea is also nice; it aint real, but it is nice: remove all signals, and let trains reserve track in front of them they need to break
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21:25<benc_>oh dear
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21:26<TrueBrain>give an estimate: how much PBS tiles would be needed on a big game? (in % of the tiles)
21:26<benc_>exactly what i was wondering
21:26<benc_>say 200 trains, signal spacing 4
21:27<benc_>probably less than 10%
21:27<benc_>esp on a big map
21:27<TrueBrain>@calc 2048 * 2048 * (16 * 1.1 + 8)
21:27<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: 107374182.4
21:27<TrueBrain>@calc 2048 * 2048 * (16 * 1.1 + 8) / 1024 / 1024
21:27<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: 102.4
21:28<TrueBrain>@calc 2048 * 2048 * (16 * 1.1 + 8) / 1024 / 1024 / 8
21:28<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: 12.8
21:28<TrueBrain>Ah :) 12 MiB... hmm.. that is wrong
21:28<TrueBrain>@calc 256 * 256 * (16 * 1.1 + 8) / 1024 / 1024 / 8
21:28<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: 0.2
21:28<TrueBrain>200 KiB.. more like it... acceptable
21:29<benc_>what;s 16*1.1 + 8?
21:29<TrueBrain>16 bits for VehicleID, 8 bits for TileIndex, and 1.1 factor for 'double' tiles :p
21:29<TrueBrain>hmm, 8 bits is wrong
21:29<TrueBrain>but okay
21:29<benc_>tree nodes require pointers though
21:30<TrueBrain>yeah, but it is a nice estimate
21:30<TrueBrain>as I even forgot the 10% :p
21:30<Sacro>meh, i'll do it in less
21:30[~]Sacro has a cunning plan
21:30<TrueBrain>tell us
21:30<TrueBrain>might help :)
21:32<benc_>using a separate data structure can always be left as an optimization for later
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21:32|-|Frostregen_ changed nick to Frostregen
21:32<Sacro>TrueBrain: i can't
21:32<Sacro>my source is secret
21:33<Sacro>its so secret, even i don't know it sometimes
21:39<TrueBrain>so, if we follow benc_ in his thinking, we just need 1 bit in the _m to flag PBS reserved, and have a lookup to find which vehicle
21:39<TrueBrain>hmm, 2 bits, in that silly case of 2 tracks on 1 tile :)
21:39<Sacro>2 bits per tile
21:39<Sacro>thats what i said
21:39<benc_>or have the lookup be sparse
21:40<benc_>only have nodes for reserved tiles
21:40<TrueBrain>!whatis sparse
21:40<TrueBrain>grr @ _42_, why did I disable it in #openttd :(
21:40<benc_>sparse = few elements
21:40<TrueBrain>benc_: exactly what I mean
21:40<benc_>in a big empty space
21:40<TrueBrain>std::map stores Tile and Vehicle if the PBS bit is set
21:40<benc_>why even have a pbs bit in _m then?
21:41<benc_>hmm yeah i guess that would be checked a lot
21:41<TrueBrain>say a vehicle doesn't have a PBS route yet, it knows immediatly if it can use a tile or not
21:41<benc_><-- not familiar with the PBS code yet
21:41<TrueBrain>me neither :p
21:41<TrueBrain>just thinking how it can possible work :)
21:42<TrueBrain>the main problem is: if the current route is aborted, how to clean up the reservation
21:42<Sacro>when it approaches a junction, it needs to route over it
21:42<Sacro>but how to handle stations
21:42<benc_>store a list of tile reservations on the vehicle too
21:42<TrueBrain>Sacro: depends on the order, if it is going to stop on the station, act like a PBS signal is at the enterance and at the exit
21:42<TrueBrain>else reserve through it
21:42<benc_>but ugh, i dont know if that's just too much crud floating around
21:43<Sacro>TrueBrain: it should route out the other side anway
21:43<TrueBrain>benc_: hmm, maybe even that alone is enough
21:43<Sacro>to stop anything routing back the other way
21:43<TrueBrain>Sacro: what do you mean?
21:43<benc_>TrueBrain: i think you're right
21:43<benc_>with the 2 _m bits there
21:43<Sacro>TrueBrain: to have a 2 track station with both platforms 2 way
21:44<TrueBrain>benc_: even more fun, if you store it per vehicle, you can disable the PF for the time it is on the PBS block :)
21:44<TrueBrain>but what if the junction changes
21:44<benc_>i thought the PF only fired when crossing junctions anyway?
21:44<Sacro>TrueBrain: *BOOM*
21:45<TrueBrain>benc_: it does, but in a PBS block it shouldn't even be doing that
21:45<benc_>or when track marked dirty after construction
21:45<TrueBrain>it should just follow the PBS marked route
21:45<Sacro>TrueBrain: surely PBS would just reserve the YAPF generated route?
21:45<TrueBrain>Sacro: of course
21:45<benc_>ah, so PBS thinks out the whole route but only reserves part of it
21:46<TrueBrain>or the NPF for all I care
21:46<TrueBrain>benc_: PBS should reserve the route from signal to signal
21:46<Sacro>or how about ditch the idea of having PBS signals/markers and just reserving for all trains
21:46<TrueBrain>Sacro: that I just told you as an idea :)
21:46<TrueBrain>but it aint realistic :)
21:47<Sacro>sounds pretty realistic to me
21:47<TrueBrain>trains don't just stop
21:47<TrueBrain>they need signals :)
21:47<Sacro>a train should have a path reserved from start to finish
21:47<Sacro>and a signal goes green when its path is reserved and its path is clear
21:47<benc_>doesn't work that way irl either
21:47<TrueBrain>that is PBS yes :)
21:47<benc_>track allocations change
21:47<Sacro>benc_: they shouldn't
21:48<Sacro>once a train has a path allocated, it should follow it
21:48<benc_>detours happen
21:48<benc_>in case of accidents, unforeseen construction, etc
21:48<Sacro>why would it need to detour if it has a reserved path?
21:48<TrueBrain>benc_: but lets assume for a moment that will never happen in OpenTTD :)
21:48<TrueBrain>as you assume a time-tabled PBS
21:48<Hendikins>I'd like to be able to run trains nose to tail on a single track bi-di line.
21:48<TrueBrain>let's first try a safety PBS :)
21:49<Sacro>Hendikins: moving block?
21:49<Hendikins>I'm not great with the terminology used.
21:49<TrueBrain>as of course the best would be if, say, the train reserves 3 tiles in front of him
21:49<TrueBrain>where it tells the estimate time it will be there
21:49<TrueBrain>so 2 trains can cross eachother even in reserved PBS block, because one isn't there yet ;)
21:49<Hendikins>But if I've got a single track section in between double track sections, I should be able to have >1 train at a time using it if they are going in the same direction.
21:49<TrueBrain>but... that might be a bit too much :p
21:50<Sacro>moving block ditches signals, and uses braking distance between trains
21:50<Hendikins>In real life such movements would be singalled.
21:50<Sacro>Hendikins: yes, thats possible
21:51<TrueBrain>it aint possible the easy
21:51<TrueBrain>as it isn't a static PBS reservation
21:51<TrueBrain>the = that
21:51<TrueBrain>it isn't = it needs
21:52<TrueBrain>a static = a non-static
21:52<TrueBrain>haha :)
21:52<TrueBrain>to have 2 trains on the same track after eachother without signals, you are doing more then PBS :)
21:52<Sacro>TrueBrain: moving block signalling
21:53<Sacro>actually, it is PBS
21:53<TrueBrain>which I doubt exists in real life :)
21:53<TrueBrain>it is a PBS, but not a static PBS which we try here :)
21:53<benc_>you are simulating the autobahn in that case
21:53<Sacro>Under a moving block system, computers calculate a 'safe zone' around each moving train that no other train is allowed to enter. The system depends on knowledge of the precise location and speed and direction of each train, which is determined by a combination of several sensors: active and passive markers along the track and trainborne tachometers and speedometers (GPS systems cannot be used because they do not work in tunnels.) With a mov
21:53<Sacro>ing block, lineside signals are unnecessary, and instructions are passed directly to the trains. This has the advantage of increasing track capacity by allowing trains to run closer together while maintaining the required safety margins.
21:54<Sacro>TrueBrain: actually, moving block would be easier
21:54<Sacro>because you don't have to bother with signals
21:54<TrueBrain>Sacro: dunno if it is easier, but for sure it makes the game less fun
21:54<Sacro>however unrealistic
21:54<Sacro>not many trains currently use it
21:54<TrueBrain>if any :)
21:54<benc_>moving block sure wasn't available in 1950
21:55<benc_>when the game starts
21:55<TrueBrain>like PBS is :p
21:55<TrueBrain>but that are minor details :)
21:55<Sacro>lets have a signalling system with bells implemented
21:56<TrueBrain>but okay
21:57<TrueBrain>ideas plenty, code none :p
21:57<benc_>would it be easier to start a new branch and PBS it up?
21:58<TrueBrain>you mean: start from scratch?
21:58<Sacro>bring back /branches/pbs!
21:58<TrueBrain>yes of course that is easier :)
21:58<benc_>no, i mean whats the easiest way to merge
21:59<benc_>never looked at the old branch myself, i dont know
21:59<benc_>willing to help out with grunt work
21:59<Sacro>mmm, me too
22:00<Sacro>getting back into coding
22:00<Sacro>i even vaguely understand pointers!
22:00<TrueBrain>good for you :p
22:00<Sacro>*pointer == variable
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22:00<TrueBrain>it is 05:00, and I am not tired :(
22:00<Sacro>pointer == &variable
22:00<Sacro>its 04:01 here
22:00<TrueBrain>just hungry
22:01<Sacro>and i'm shattered
22:02<TrueBrain>Chocolate... hmm....
22:05<TrueBrain>but okay
22:05<TrueBrain>why do you guys keep on pushing PBS?
22:05<TrueBrain>is it that important for you? :)
22:05<benc_>i'm not pushing it, i actually like the existing system just fine
22:06<TrueBrain>okay, so besides benc_ :p
22:06<benc_>interesting programming challenges though
22:06<TrueBrain>there are easier things to start with :)
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22:09<TrueBrain>so, I expect when I come back in, say, 12 hours, you guys have PBS finished
22:09<benc_>we'll get right on it
22:10<benc_>rome was built in a day after all:)
22:10<TrueBrain>my point exactly :)
22:11<TrueBrain>not much that line is used against me :) I mostly use it against people.... :p
22:11[~]Sacro yawns
22:13<TrueBrain>we should properly check how the old PBS was done :p
22:13<TrueBrain>but those patches are unreadable :(
22:13<benc_>how so?
22:13<TrueBrain>they always are
22:13<TrueBrain>they become big...
22:15<Smoovious>might be worth starting again from scratch too
22:17<Smoovious>maybe come up with a different way of keeping track of which signals lead to other signals...
22:18<Smoovious>would like to see more than just stop/proceed signals too...
22:22<TrueBrain>it aint going to be easy...
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22:23<Sacro>Smoovious: such as?
22:26<Smoovious>well... in one of the US styles... G/G all clear ahead... G/R clear ahead... Y/Y clear, expect to stop at 2nd next signal... Y/R expect to stop next signal... R/R stop...
22:26<Smoovious>with signal state default to stop instead of proceed
22:27<benc_>i'm going blind already trying to tell the difference between pre/signal/combo signals ;)
22:27<Smoovious>clearing t he track for the t rain ahead of it... maybe get that working well, then tackle the path-based
22:27<Sacro>yeah, that'd be cool
22:28<Smoovious>for path based, use 3 targets...
22:28<Smoovious>would like to see a G/R if I'm going straight on t he main track, and a R/G if I'm cleared to branch off
22:28[~]Smoovious shrugs.
22:29<Smoovious>probably more complexity than we can do as far as that goes
22:29<Smoovious>one guy in here the other day was talking about doing programmable signals... really interested me, but can't find a thread about it...
22:29<TrueBrain>most likely he failed :p
22:30<TrueBrain>via SQ it is possible, but pretty slow
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22:30<Smoovious>don't think he faileed yet, he was still doing it... but if we can do something where you can set up the available paths for the i nterlocking, and keep them in a table for that group, and signal accordingly...
22:31<Smoovious>but would take a lot to work out t he l ogic
22:31<Smoovious>think it can be done tho
22:31<TrueBrain>not to talk about memory and speed :)
22:31<benc_>that's like running a TCP router firmware on, say, Python
22:32<TrueBrain>still, much more configurable :)
22:32<TrueBrain>but okay, I don't want to do PBS
22:33<TrueBrain>so, what am I going to do... :)
22:33<Smoovious>trying to think of what program I used to mess around with that made linking signalling together fairly easy
22:34<Smoovious>well, if you really want a project... how about, if when autorenew isn't able to replace a vehicle cuz it isn't available anymore, to pop up a news item that the replacement was u navailable... i nstead of being quiet until we notice we got trains 20 years past its l ife sspan
22:34<TrueBrain>Autoreplace == Bjarni
22:35<Smoovious>1 word... coup
22:35<benc_>more news items!
22:35<benc_>not really project-y though
22:35<benc_>but would be nice to be able to get more notifications
22:36<benc_>like when shares are bought, money is given in multiplayer, town actions done, etc
22:36<Smoovious>well, the failied autoreplace would be on par with " getting old." messagees
22:36<Smoovious>yeah, we need more shares too... like... 100 instead of 4
22:36<TrueBrain>no, we need a dynamic share
22:37<benc_>shares are worthless until after economy rebalancing:)
22:37<TrueBrain>like the real market
22:37<Smoovious>buy in single percents... and only buy them a limited amount at a time
22:38<Smoovious>maybe, something l ike... if you h ave more than 50% ownership of another company, you don't need their permission to use their tracks anymore, you can just go on them on your own and if he d oesn't like it... well... he can sell the rest of his shares to you and go home. >:)
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22:40<Smoovious>ya know, if we do increase # of companies, think we should go to 15 instead of 16, leaving company 0 available for independent vehicles... like... a road vehicle crashes or something, emergency vehicles come out of a nearby depot to the scene, disrupt traffic for a while until
22:40<Smoovious>it dissapears, then drives b ack to th e depot
22:41<Smoovious>or occasionally a rail work crew comes out on th e track getting i n t he way for a while
22:42<TrueBrain>I like to see a lot of new disasters :)
22:42<Smoovious>I had some ideas for closing airports, which I think would work
22:42<TrueBrain>trains not stopping for a red signal
22:42<TrueBrain>stuff like that :)
22:43<Smoovious>yeah, that's what I was thinking... with a 'company 0' available for vehicles, you could do a lot with disasters and other things
22:43<Smoovious>if a signal hasn't been serviced in a long time, the chance for signal failure gradually goes up
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22:44<Smoovious>much more gradually than breakdown percents... (which I think still happen too often, even on reduced... can't imagine playing on normal)
22:45<Smoovious>oh... being able to start a new company when already joined to a server as an observer... that'd be great...
22:46<Smoovious>less disruptive to the current players too
22:46<Smoovious>and for the server... if I am hosting a game, and I go bankrupt, I'm screwed
22:53<Ailure>could work as a console command
22:53<Ailure>and SwitchcCompany <ID>
22:54<Smoovious>should be able to just go under the load/save/quit menu too
22:54<Ailure>SwitchCompany <ID> <password>
22:54<Smoovious>or the client list... click on your nick, create new company
22:55<benc_>essentially a way to switch from spectator to player
22:55<Smoovious>but yeah, at least a console command...
22:55<benc_>would be handy, genenerally
22:55<benc_>dont have to exit/reconnect if you're specing
22:55<Smoovious>would help (maybe, probably not) stop all those idiots who keep creating a new company, leavbe a min later, and never come back
22:56<Smoovious>tho my problem is when I find a server I wanna play on, I don't always remember which o ne it was I connected to
22:56<Smoovious>maybe you could o nly create a new company, once you're connected as a spectator
22:57<benc_>yeah, thats a separate issue
22:57<benc_>need to remember last several servers connected to
22:57<benc_>i think there's a thread about it..
22:58<Smoovious>yeah, I think I still have a FS entry up asking for it
22:58<Smoovious>yeah, FS#533
22:58<benc_>wow, that's a ways back
22:58<benc_>in 900s now
22:59<benc_>limbo sucks
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22:59<Smoovious>working on getting FS#532 current and changed a bit tonight
23:01<benc_>havent tried that one out yet
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23:02<Smoovious>it worked pretty good... but still room for improvement...
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23:10<Ailure>Am I silly if I have a black man as manager
23:10<Ailure>then name the company as "Bike Storage"
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23:11<Smoovious>no sillier than other companies I've seen
23:13<Ailure>then in the same game
23:13<Ailure>a friend made a reference to something from a silly manga about trains
23:14<Ailure>he always build thoose circular networks
23:15<Ailure>and that station says "multi track drifting" in japanse
23:15<Ailure>or so he said
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23:22<Smoovious>somehow I don't think multi-track drifting is going to be implemented in trunk
23:32[~]Phazorx gets a lot of desyncs/CTDs lately while managing trains servicing
23:32<Phazorx>was there any bugs concerning that between 170 and now ?
23:34<Ailure>170 of what
23:34<Ailure>or do you mean
23:36<Phazorx>10170 yes
23:37<Phazorx>i guess sdince i am using train grops interfqace it could eb related to grouping
23:38<Ailure>I was using it earlier without problems
23:38<Ailure>but I didn't do anything too excessive in it
23:38<Ailure>in a multiplayer game, that is
23:39<Phazorx>i'm just clicking on trains and then sending them to depot
23:39<Phazorx>since servicing order somehoe did not work for all
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23:39<Phazorx>and i got desynced twice since i started doing that
23:40<Ailure>that was little bit mean
23:40<Ailure>but I guess he deserves it
23:41<Ailure>or hmm
---Logclosed Sat Jun 23 00:00:41 2007