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#openttd IRC Logs for 2007-06-23

---Logopened Sat Jun 23 00:00:41 2007
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03:43<Hendikins>Hrm, I'm finding ottd runs much better on the 64bit box
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03:45<@peter1138>does it happen to also be faster?
03:45<Hendikins>Actually, no
03:46<Hendikins>This is a 1600MHz Sempron (64bit) vs a 2000MHz Barton (32bit), both with 1 gig RAM
03:46<Hendikins>(The 32bit machine is dualproc, but that isn't particularly relevant)
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04:04<CIA-1>OpenTTD: KUDr * r10292 /trunk/src/stdafx.h: -Fix: suppress VC 7.1 warning: "\src\texteff.cpp(251) : warning C4258: 'y' : definition from the for loop is ignored; the definition from the enclosing scope is used" which prevents compilation on MSVC 2003
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04:43<stillunknown>Hendikins: The amd64 architecture is faster per mhz, and ofcource the usage of int64 doesn't hinder a 64bits arch.
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04:49|-|mode/#openttd [+o TrueBrain] by DorpsGek
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04:54<stillunknown>Can functions inherit like classes can?
04:54<eekee>what would they inherit?
04:55<stillunknown>A piece of common code.
04:55<stillunknown>But now that i think of it, it would be strange.
04:55<eekee>yeah ^^'
04:56<eekee>I'd guess to move the common code to an inline func
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04:58<stillunknown>Hello Osai.
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05:01<stillunknown>eekee: if i inline a virtual function into a non-virtual function, will that even work?
05:01<eekee>stillunknown: ok now I'm lost :)
05:02<stillunknown>I'm considering a two stage vehicle controller, one with common code, which then calls the second stage.
05:02<stillunknown>Obviously the second needs differs greatly between the vehicles, and that needs to be virtual.
05:02<stillunknown>So i can define different functions for different vehicle types/
05:04<eekee>why are you tryig to do it in one function?
05:04<stillunknown>Make the code more pretty and reduce code duplication.
05:05<stillunknown>I already have a single tick function, next task would be the controller.
05:06<Noldo>so a vehiclecontroller class with specific ones derived from that?
05:06<eekee>sounds like a job for a class, yeah
05:06<stillunknown>Obviously those functions are in the vehicle class.
05:06<eekee>Oh & IMHO, great big 'megafunctions' are never pretty :D
05:07<stillunknown>I don't want great megafunctions, i even cut up the TrainController, since it was too large for my taste.
05:07<Hendikins>*growl* nothing more annoying than industries and towns that seem impossible to bribe when trying to build a straight, level express line
05:07<eekee>/me's "I hate OOP" swtich just tripped
05:07<eekee>Hendikins: patience works 8)
05:08<eekee>stillunknown: sounds like you want to subclass the vehicle class, am I right?
05:08<stillunknown>This is already done.
05:08<Hendikins>So does cloning pax trains in the mean time because 40 isn't enough
05:08<stillunknown>In trunk.
05:09[~]eekee blinks
05:09<eekee>Augh I give up, lol
05:10<eekee>Ugh, brain won't stop. Can't you subclass the subclasses? I thought that was a principle of OOP...
05:10<stillunknown>The subclasses in place are fine.
05:11<stillunknown>I'm just considering what to do with aircraft, they work very differently from everything else.
05:11<eekee>no, they're not, because they're preventing you from implementing your vehicle controller
05:12<stillunknown>I currently have a virtual vehicle controller, defined for each type.
05:12<@peter1138> 2.48 12.14 0.56 3851 0.00 0.00 CargoPacket::AllocateRaw()
05:12<@peter1138> 0.00 22.37 0.00 3851 0.00 0.00 CargoPacket::AllocateRaw()
05:12<@peter1138>better ;)
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05:13<stillunknown>eekee: Most controller functions are predicable, increase tick counter, check for crash, check for reverse, do loading stuff
05:14<Wolf01>now i'm a lucky owner of transport tycoon, after a difficult search i found it!
05:14<stillunknown>eekee: But currently the controller's have varying names and sometimes stuff is in the wrong place.
05:15<eekee>ahh, & you're trying to clean it up
05:15<stillunknown>I'm going to do as much cleanup as i can, then i'll force someone to put it into trunk ;-)
05:16<eekee>Well, all I can say is that cleaning up often requires changing the structure, hence my comment that maybe the current subclassing isn't "just fine" & may need to be subclassed futher
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05:17<stillunknown>Maybe for aircraft
05:17<stillunknown>helicopter and aircraft issue
05:17<eekee>ah right *nod*
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05:19|-|[peter1138] changed the topic of #openttd: 0.5.2 | Website: * (DevBlog: blog, Translator: translator2, Gameservers: servers, Nightly-builds: nightly, WIKI: wiki, SVN mailinglist: maillist, Dev-docs: docs, Bug-reports: bugs) | #openttd.notice for FS + SVN notices
05:20|-|[peter1138] changed the topic of #openttd: 0.5.2 | Website: * (DevBlog: blog, Translator: translator2, Gameservers: servers, Nightly-builds: nightly, WIKI: wiki, SVN mailinglist: maillist, Dev-docs: docs, Bug-reports: bugs) | #openttd.notice for FS + SVN notices
05:20<@peter1138>no idea :o
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05:22<Biff>hmm, what is "FS"?
05:22<XeryusTC>fly spray
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05:26<eekee>ahoy hoy
05:27<dihedral>my word - it was a little too late for my tast :-P
05:28<eekee>yeah, heh
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05:48<@peter1138>4 las?
05:49<@TrueBrain>I was bored
05:50<@peter1138>i see
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05:58[~]Hendikins wonders why his dual head T.I.M.s aren't being replaced with dual head AsiaStars, even though they're supposed to be getting replaced and the trains are going to depots
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06:02<Chris82>good morning
06:02<Chris82>does it help city growth when I build roads for them?
06:02<@TrueBrain>a bit, not much
06:03<@TrueBrain>the town-groth sometimes trades house-building for road-building
06:03<@TrueBrain>but that is all
06:03<Chris82>ok then I can save myself a lot of time :D
06:04<Hendikins>Is autoreplace supposed to ignore dual head + dual end trains?
06:05[~]Hendikins would really not like to have to manually upgrade 150-odd trains
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06:06<dihedral>TrueBrain: saw you patched the smooth_economy stuff :-)
06:07<Chris82>Hendikins I though that was a bug that got fixed recently
06:08[~]Hendikins svn ups to latest
06:08[~]Hendikins was at r10201 or so.
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06:18<Hendikins>Chris82: Apparently not.
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06:18<Hendikins>Even with r10292 my dual head T.I.M.s are not being autoreplaced.
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06:29<dihedral>does autoclean_protected = 0 in the mean time mean that protected companies are never purged?
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06:32<Haclet>I have question
06:32<Haclet>What the timetable is ?
06:32<Haclet>How can I use it?
06:33<dihedral>by downloading the latest nightly (or anything as of r10269)
06:33<Haclet>It new future or was before and I didn't see it ?
06:33<dihedral>new... very new
06:33<dihedral>4 days perhaps
06:33<Haclet>WOW :)
06:33<Haclet>So - how can I use it ?
06:33<dihedral>but you need a nightly build not a stable build... i believe
06:34<Haclet> I have last version from SVN
06:34<Eddi|zuHause3>Haclet: open train orders window, on the top right there is timetable
06:34<Eddi|zuHause3>then assign a time for each item
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06:34<Eddi|zuHause3>if the train takes less time than that, it will wait
06:34<Haclet>Yes I know where it is, but how can I use IT ?
06:34<Eddi|zuHause3>time is in days
06:35<Haclet>so that means that I can set for example 10days for coal, 5 days for something else ?
06:35<dihedral>just try it :-)
06:35<Haclet>dihedral: GOOOD Answer -
06:35<Eddi|zuHause3>you can e.g. tell your slow freight trains to wait at a station, while an express train is scheduled to pass through and overtake
06:35<Haclet>As soon as I will have tami
06:36<eekee>TT's always had a "try it & see" interface, lol
06:36<Haclet>take care - I have to do some diuties - no games for this moment ;)
06:36<Haclet>eekee: right LOL
06:36<Haclet>thank you
06:36<Haclet>see you soon
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06:37<Chris82>Hendikins: Hmm that dual train bug is weird. The dual head trains in the DB Set XL are replaced without problems.
06:37[~]eekee tries it
06:38<dihedral>i thought it was a good answer :-)
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06:38<dihedral>a "learn by doing" answer
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06:40<Chris82>I used the time table on an extremely huge passenger circle line on a 2048x2048 map
06:40<Chris82>it works well to keep a an approx. set distance between the trains
06:40<Chris82>so I don't have 50 trains in one corner of the circle line but instead spread all over the line
06:41<dihedral>would be cool if the station rating changed depending on if a train is how late or on time :-)
06:41<Chris82>I don't know how useful it is for express / cargo train issues, I never use the same tracks for passenger and cargo lines
06:41<dihedral>or the town's rating
06:43<@peter1138>getting the time table right is tricky
06:43[~]Chris82 nods
06:43<dihedral>unfort yes
06:43<Chris82>but I think once I figured all the tricks out it becomes a great and useful feature
06:43<dihedral>i would be cool if there was an 'history'
06:43<Chris82>right now it's more trial and error :p
06:44<dihedral>all trains in this shared order too an average of x days for this
06:44<eekee>Trains only get replaced when they go in for servicing, right?
06:44<Chris82>with auto replace?
06:44<Chris82>they get replaced whenever you set the option
06:45<Chris82>servicing can be disabled that's no problem in the latest nightlies (was before tho)
06:45<dihedral>Chris82: they still have to visit a depot to get replaced!
06:45<Chris82>yes sure
06:45<eekee>mine aren't going into the depot at all O.o
06:45<Chris82>but you don't need to send them there and enable servicing
06:45<eekee>may be a 'fault' in my test track, but I don't see it
06:45<Chris82>huh? you must have a depot somewhere on your tracks, otherwise how did you build the trains?
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06:46<dihedral>you have breakdowns turned off?
06:46<dihedral>and possible service if breackdowns are off = disabled?
06:46<Chris82>I have breakdowns off and disabled servicing. But auto replace works fine anyway.
06:47<Chris82>It didn't in earlier versions of auto replace because then trains only got replaced on the normal service intervals.
06:47<Chris82>But as I said that's no issue in the latest nightlies
06:47<eekee>Oh, my trains were waiting for the servicing interval to come up
06:47<Chris82>which version are you using?
06:49<Chris82>then auto replace should definitely work without servicing
06:49<eekee>It didn't :)
06:49<Chris82>can you send me a savegame?
06:49<Chris82>so I can see if I find an error in the network
06:49<eekee>Well, servicing was enabled, maybe when dervicing is disabled it works differently -- sure
06:50<Chris82>well but if it works with servicing disabled and doesn't work with enabled servicing it would be really weird
06:51<eekee>yeah, but possible :D
06:51<Chris82>did you try to DCC me?
06:51<Chris82>that is disabled here
06:51<Chris82>can you upload it?
06:56<Chris82>hmmm interesting
06:57<Chris82>they are not replaced indeed but there's no way this track has pathfinding problems
06:58<Chris82>it only works when I send them manually to servicing
06:58<Chris82>otherwise nothing happens
06:58<Chris82>that is strange
07:00<Chris82>this might be the dual head problem Hendikins spoke about before
07:00<Chris82>steam and single head electrified railway is replaced properly
07:00<eekee>Yes. I was playing with Hendikins, I replaced single-headers fine earlier in the same game with r10201
07:02<Chris82>hmm I will try if I can reproduce that in a game I created myself
07:02<eekee>Incidentally I made that test with r10201, perhaps the error hangs on from the old version? r9936 or therabouts had a problem with ufo shadows persisting after the ufo had blown up, & you load up a save game with those shadows in a newer version & then shadows are still there
07:04<@Bjarni>can anybody tell me the name of a known good industry newGRF?
07:04<@Bjarni>known good as in "works with trunk"
07:04<@peter1138>uh none?
07:04<@Bjarni>that would explain why this didn't work
07:05<eekee>trunk supports new industies now?
07:05<@Bjarni>I guess not
07:05<eekee>o ok
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07:14<Eddi|zuHause3>wasn't there a purely graphical factory replacement? :p
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07:18<eekee>oh graphical replacement works, yeah. The Mars grf does that, on openttd
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07:45<Smoovious>I think I have that graphical factory replacement if ya want it
07:47<Smoovious>answering something someone else said 30min ago
07:50<Eddi|zuHause3>ugh... that lightning was close...
07:50<Eddi|zuHause3>Smoovious: i don't think that was what he actually asked for :p
07:50<Smoovious>oh sorry, my bad.... >moves it a few miles further north<
07:50<Smoovious>that was to you, Eddi|zuHause3. :P
07:51<Eddi|zuHause3>i was only replying to something else
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07:51<Eddi|zuHause3>and the question was rhethorical... hence the ":p"
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08:08<Smoovious>yeah, but I tend to play straight-man a lot... a lot of things are funnier when there's one person who acts like h e doesn't get it. :D
08:09<dihedral>is there any way one could get a screenshot from the intro screen with out the menu in front?
08:10<Eddi|zuHause3>yes, rename the .dat to .sav and load it
08:10<dihedral>:-) thanks
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08:45<kaan>hi all
08:47<@TrueBrain>hi kaan
08:52<kaan>so what new breathtaking features sneaked into trunk since i went to bed last noght?
08:55<dihedral>network_udp.cpp: FOR_ALL_CLIENTS(cs)
08:55<dihedral>how are they sorted
08:55<dihedral>i.e. latest join first?
09:01<stillunknown>OTTD is a mess in some ways, but i suppose you all knew that.
09:01<@TrueBrain>depends on to what you refer
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09:02<stillunknown>There is consistency between vehicle functions.
09:02<stillunknown>One does DoThis()
09:02<stillunknown>other: Don'tDoThis()
09:02<stillunknown>yet another: DoThis(i want more args)
09:03<stillunknown>Also there is no well defined structure were things should be done.
09:03<stillunknown>Either in a tick, or in the vehicle controller, etc.
09:03<@TrueBrain>so you only complain about lack of documentation
09:03<stillunknown>But don't worry, i'm doing my best ;-)
09:03<@TrueBrain>that you can resolve yourself :)
09:04<stillunknown>I'm busy restructuring some things.
09:04<@TrueBrain>I am hungry, but as I am going on vacation, I don't really feel like buying new stuff, so I only have things I don't like to eat that much...
09:04<@TrueBrain>annoying :)
09:05<kaan>well, find the stuff in the back and eat it with your eyes closed then :P
09:06<@TrueBrain>I don't have stuff 'in the back'
09:06<@TrueBrain>I am a pretty clean guy :)
09:06<@TrueBrain>I think :p
09:06<kaan>i meant like canned fish or something
09:06<@TrueBrain>aawwwhhhh :p
09:06<@TrueBrain>aa = oo
09:07<kaan>or make pasta with kethup
09:07<@TrueBrain>I hate pasta
09:07<@TrueBrain>really, I do
09:07<kaan>hehe, theres no pleaseing you i guess
09:07<@TrueBrain>nope :)
09:07<@TrueBrain>yeah, good patches
09:07<@TrueBrain>that pleases me :)
09:08<kaan>well im fresh out ;)
09:08<eekee>Tuna + bread == meal :d
09:08<kaan>eekee: exactly!
09:08<eekee>need a lil bit of veg too, but can skip it
09:09<kaan>TrueBrain: where are you going on vacation?
09:09<@TrueBrain>France! Viva La France!
09:09<eekee>where's the trancparency options gone?
09:09<@TrueBrain>eekee: where it should have been all along
09:09<@TrueBrain>eekee: try to look in the most logic place to find it :)
09:09<eekee>TrueBrain: What, under map? Oh I know, under config
09:10<kaan>then you should get good food :D
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09:10<eekee>ya tee why
09:10<@TrueBrain>eekee: exactly :) Under map wasn't really... logic :p
09:10<eekee>*shrugs* It made sense to me :) But then it wasn't with the other view options
09:11<@TrueBrain>it made sense to you?!
09:11<stillunknown>I never found the old place, i noticed it a day or two ago for the first time.
09:14<Eddi|zuHause3><TrueBrain> France! Viva La France! <- it's "vive la france", isn't it?
09:14<@TrueBrain>who cares
09:14<Smoovious>TrueBrain... do you still put together openttd .torrents?
09:15<Eddi|zuHause3>viva sounds more like italian
09:15<@TrueBrain>hmm, torrents
09:15<@TrueBrain>I should update them
09:16<Smoovious>well, reason I ask is I keep a client (2 actually) running 24/7... if ya want someone to help seed, I'm willing... can set something up to autoload them
09:16<@TrueBrain>feel free :)
09:16<Smoovious>do you have them on an rss?
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09:17<@TrueBrain>nope, the page you see there is all we have
09:18<Smoovious>well, will see what I can set up when ya get back
09:19<Smoovious>and thnx for the commit. :D
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10:02<Phazorx>can anyone suggest a way to debug hard crashes?
10:02<Phazorx>it gets very anoying and isnt responce to my actions since last few times i been idle
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10:12<@TrueBrain>so, what next....
10:12<stillunknown>Phazorx: does it give asserts?
10:12<Phazorx>stillunknown: hard crush
10:13<stillunknown>Run it in a debugger, backtrace it when it crashes.
10:13<Phazorx>win32 here :/
10:13<Phazorx>i guess gdb from mingw would do
10:15<stillunknown>But don't expect to run any mega games in a usefull way.
10:15<Eddi|zuHause3>compile with debug symbols first...
10:16<stillunknown>Because a debug build isn't optimized or stripped of it's symbols.
10:16<Phazorx>Eddi|zuHause3: i might ened more detailed instructions
10:16<Eddi|zuHause3>./configure --help?
10:16<@TrueBrain>./configure --enable-debug is enough :p
10:17<Phazorx>nothing fancy like linking gdb?
10:17<Eddi|zuHause3>gdb should be already installed
10:17<Phazorx>not in mingw here
10:17<Phazorx>which is what came with bottd
10:18<@TrueBrain>that we can't help/fix/solve
10:18<Eddi|zuHause3>then install it :)
10:18<Phazorx>i'l get gdb
10:18<Phazorx>once i fugure out how i can branch local svn copies
10:18<Phazorx>so i have latest with profiling along with 10170
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10:22<Eddi|zuHause3>md openttd-r#####; cd openttd-r#####; svn export <URL> -r #####
10:23<Eddi|zuHause3>if you intend to svn update later, use svn checkout instead of svn export
10:24<Phazorx>Eddi|zuHause3: i was hoping to avoid 2 sources
10:24<Eddi|zuHause3>if you want to have different revisions, you need different sources...
10:25<Eddi|zuHause3>but after compiling you can delete everything outside the bin/ dir
10:31<Phazorx>well that was a bad start
10:31<Phazorx>gdb fails to compile
10:32<Phazorx>in sys/time.h
10:33<+glx>gdb is included in msys
10:35<Phazorx>wasnt ehre
10:38<Ammler>Phazorx: you can also reconfigure with revision=rXXXXX, but I would also suggest to use more than one source
10:39<Eddi|zuHause3>Phazorx: but you don't need to compile it
10:39<Eddi|zuHause3>Ammler: that will never work correctly...
10:40<Ammler>If the different sources not much behind, it worked for me well, at least I made it so long time
10:41<Eddi|zuHause3>Ammler: that was really just a coincidence
10:42<Ammler>indeed, last year I had some desyncs, but since I rejoined this year, it worked well
10:42<Ammler>now I work with different chckouts too
10:47<Ammler>32bpp is in the trunk now, but I miss one more zoom in step, how do I activate that?
10:48<+glx>code it
10:48<Ammler>but it was in the 32bpp already
10:48<+glx>the 32bpp in trunk is very different from the branch
10:51<Phazorx>ugm glx where do i get that debuger?
10:51|-|wolfy changed nick to Wolfensteijn
10:51<Smoovious>Ortho makes a good debugger... .. .
10:53<stillunknown>I wonder why people bother with so called integrated builds, they end being ugly kludges that die after a while
10:54<Smoovious>because they're good for testing things out that haven't made it into trunk yet
10:54<Phazorx>thank you
10:55<stillunknown>But identifying bugs is troublesome with many patches.
10:55<stillunknown>And some people use it just to use it.
10:55<Smoovious>it isn't testing specific bugs, but for overall usability, and how they interact with each other
10:56<Smoovious>there's more to testing than looking for errors
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10:57<Smoovious>they make integrateds for the same reason they make branches...
10:57<Smoovious>don't like em, don't use em, but they get something out of it, even if you can't see it
10:57<stillunknown>But branches are for the purpose of eventually being merged back, and they are usually by one or a small group of authors.
10:58<stillunknown>It's a temporary fork, which is bound to die.
10:58<Smoovious>again... so?
10:59<Smoovious>people like to try out stuff... what's so hard to understand about that?
10:59<stillunknown>It's better to spend time to get 10-15% of those patches included in trunk, much better on the long run.
11:00<eekee>P0otentially much more boring though :d
11:00<Smoovious>and branches are for the purpose of trying stuff out without messing up the trunk... a branch is not necessarily intended to be merged back... some do... more often than not, they don't
11:00<Smoovious>better according to who?
11:01<Smoovious>do y ou really think people don't intend for their patches to make it into t runk?
11:01<stillunknown>Most people do, but a lot don't enter.
11:01<Smoovious>so what?
11:02<Smoovious>you're not quite onto the whole concept of what open source i s, are ya?
11:02<Smoovious>people h ave the freedom to try things out...
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11:02<Smoovious>if they get added into trunk, fine, but the majority of patches offered, don't make it into trunk
11:04<stillunknown>But maintaining a large combination of patches on a fast moving target like openttd, is a bad idea imo.
11:04<Smoovious>if nothing else, it is a learning experience for the people involved... and even if they don't make it into trunk, the process has been very valuable for them...
11:04<Smoovious>I disagree... I see it as a very good idea
11:04<@TrueBrain>good ... bad .... it has its ups and its downs
11:05<Smoovious>and very positive for the project
11:05<Smoovious>if people weren't trying out new things independently, would t he project be as far along as it is now?
11:05<eekee>It's a game, development is unpaid, if the developers don't get to have their fun as & when the fancy, who would code it at all?
11:06<Smoovious>free your mind. :)
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11:08<stillunknown>I like an active community as well.
11:08<Smoovious>then quit bitching about it being active. :P
11:09<Smoovious>someone wouldn't let you play on their server, is that it? cuz, I don't get what the problem is
11:10<@TrueBrain>I am bored
11:10<stillunknown>I never even touch patch builds, so that's not the problem.
11:10<Smoovious>when do you split for France?
11:10<@TrueBrain>in 5 days
11:10<Smoovious>stillunknown... youor choice
11:10<Smoovious>TrueBrain... how long ya gonna be gone for?
11:10<Smoovious>not bad...
11:10<@TrueBrain>indeed :)
11:11<Smoovious>whatcha planning to do once ya get there?
11:11<@TrueBrain>do nothing
11:11<Smoovious>just see where the current takes you/
11:11<@TrueBrain>I have a car
11:11<@TrueBrain>so , yeah
11:12<Smoovious>I hate scheduled vacations myself... like to do the random drive...
11:12<eekee>Yeah me too ^_^
11:12<Smoovious>end up finding much more interesting places that way
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11:13<@TrueBrain>so we will see :)
11:13<Smoovious>hope ya have a good time
11:13<@TrueBrain>hmm, a desert that is 3 weeks over its date...
11:13<@TrueBrain>let's try it
11:13<dihedral>aye - from here too
11:14<@TrueBrain>tnx, I will :)
11:14<@TrueBrain>but I ahve 2 days left of coding :p
11:14<@TrueBrain>and I am bored to dead
11:14<dihedral>TrueBrain: when you start dreaming ottd stuff - you know you need another few days away :-D
11:14<dihedral>why are you bored?
11:15<@TrueBrain>it smells okay
11:15<@TrueBrain>it tastes oky
11:15<@TrueBrain>can I assume it is okay?
11:15<Smoovious>what is it?
11:15<dihedral>what are you looking at?
11:15<@TrueBrain>a desert
11:15<dihedral>if its milk or meat and its off itll make you through up
11:15<dihedral>how old is it?
11:15<@TrueBrain>5 weeks old, 3 weeks over its date :p
11:15<Phazorx>20887629 Jun 23 12:15 openttd.exe
11:15<Phazorx>20M lol
11:16<Smoovious>was it frozen?
11:16<dihedral>depends on how nice you want your holiday to be
11:16<@TrueBrain>not frozeh
11:16<Smoovious>yeah, better be on the safe side this close to departure and just toss it
11:16<@TrueBrain>I hate dates on stuff
11:16<@TrueBrain>it is never correct
11:16<@TrueBrain>I am eating it :)
11:16<dihedral>if you dont mind stopping the car every 5 mins to take a dump... go ahead :-D
11:16[~]Smoovious shakes his head.
11:16<kaan>good luck with that TrueBrain
11:17<dihedral>what people do when they are bored
11:17<@TrueBrain>and it tastest gooooooddd!!! :)
11:17<dihedral>lets just wait a day or 2 and see if your stomach sais the same
11:17<stillunknown>Sick countdown: 20 minutes ;-)
11:17<@TrueBrain>will let you know :)
11:17<kaan>id rather not know :P
11:18<dihedral>just spare the details will ya
11:18<@TrueBrain>no pictures?
11:18<Smoovious>try and take video of it when ya hurl
11:18<dihedral>knock yourself out
11:21<@TrueBrain>okay, I tossed it out
11:21<kaan>quitter! :P
11:21<kaan>so what else hides in the back where you found that?
11:22<Smoovious>find a !tasty spot?
11:22<@TrueBrain>that was all
11:22<@TrueBrain>cleaning the fridge :)
11:22<@TrueBrain>only thing I have left is a 3 months old cheese
11:22<@TrueBrain>but it was too young when I bought it
11:22<kaan>cheese is good
11:23<@TrueBrain>it sure is!
11:23<dihedral>TrueBrain: cleanning out the fridge usually does not mean you have to eat it all too
11:23<@TrueBrain>dihedral: the content of my fridge is pretty harmless
11:23<dihedral>what content the is not?
11:23<Smoovious>usually a bad time for random snacking too
11:24<Smoovious>sometimes I find something so old, and can't figure out why I would have ever bought it in the first place, much less when
11:25<Eddi|zuHause3>i do not like cheese...
11:26<Eddi|zuHause3>except when baked on pizza or similar...
11:26<Eddi|zuHause3>damn, now i am hungry :)
11:26<kaan>me too
11:26<kaan>i better get something
11:27<@TrueBrain>kaan: look luck with the back of your fridge :)
11:28<kaan>lucky me i cleaned it out yesterday
11:28<kaan>i think it will be pate on bread :D
11:28<@TrueBrain>enjoy :)
11:29<kaan>or maybe canned fish :)
11:32<dihedral>radio just said there was a tornado in frankfurt!!
11:33<Smoovious>would love to go weather-chasing one of these days
11:33<Eddi|zuHause3>there was a tornado right in front of my window a while ago...
11:34<dihedral>r u in frankfurt?
11:35<dihedral>well then
11:35<Eddi|zuHause3>also... which frankfurt?
11:35<dihedral>i guess they would have explicitly stated it otherwise ;-)
11:35<dihedral>'where do you live then?
11:36<Eddi|zuHause3>about half way between both :)
11:36<@TrueBrain>so between France and Germany
11:36<@TrueBrain>Luxemburg? :p
11:36<Eddi|zuHause3>TrueBrain: ??
11:36<@TrueBrain>haha :)
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11:39<@TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause3: old and bad joke from my friends :p
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11:40<dihedral>that luxemburg was between the 2 frankfurts??
11:41<dihedral>i can feel a giggle rising ...
11:41<Eddi|zuHause3>i don't get it...
11:41<dihedral>was a sneeze
11:41<@TrueBrain>some friends of my are very bad in where to place what
11:41<dihedral>then that would make sense
11:41<@TrueBrain>so hearing Frankfurt always makes me smile
11:41<dihedral>^ like that
11:42<@TrueBrain>(a friend said: I was going from Frankfurt to Frankfurt, it was fun! The other one said: so you came through Luxemburg?)
11:42<dihedral>if they were american you could excuse it
11:43<Eddi|zuHause3># Weil Frankfurt so groƟ ist, teilt man's in zwei ein
11:43<Eddi|zuHause3># in Frankfurt an der Oder und Frankfurt am Main
11:43<Eddi|zuHause3>(popular german drinking tune)
11:43<@TrueBrain>why am I not suprised?
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11:50<Ammler>dihedral: does or will your OpenTTDLib also support grfs?
11:50<dihedral>working on it
11:51<Ammler>cool :)
11:51<dihedral>aparantly it will be bound to fail ( or not relyable acording to Rubidium)
11:51<dihedral>but i shall try
11:51<Smoovious>what is OpenTTDLib anyways?
11:51<dihedral>php5 classes to query games
11:52<Smoovious>oh right... so you could put various state info on a page
11:52<Ammler>will it also be possible to extract the infos from a save?
11:52<dihedral>although yesterday evening i made a set of php4 ones
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11:52<dihedral>check out
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11:53<dihedral>TrueBrain: would it be possible to let ottd know the timestamp of when the current game was started
11:53<dihedral>as in the unix timestamp
11:54<@TrueBrain>calculating that yourself takes as much effort as doing it ingame
11:54<@TrueBrain>while we never need it ingame
11:54<Eddi|zuHause3>btw, dihedral, sure with "tornado" they didn't mean the military plane?
11:54<dihedral>could the game send the map seed on the FIND_SERVERS query?
11:55<dihedral>Eddi|zuHause3: they mentioned that it tore of some roof's and uprooted some trees
11:55<dihedral>and that noone was harmed
11:55<dihedral>so i dont think it was the plane :-D
11:55<Smoovious>unless it was flying, really, really, low
11:55<dihedral>TrueBrain: i am looking for some data that is constant during the cause of one game, but different in the next game
11:56<dihedral>i.e. after a newgame command for example
11:56<@TrueBrain>there is nothing I guess
11:56<dihedral>the random seed?
11:56<@TrueBrain>not gauranteed
11:56<dihedral>but likely?
11:56<Ammler>dihedral: is it also possible to fetch the data from a save?
11:56<dihedral>Ammler: i process udp packets
11:57<dihedral>the pid will be the same Smoovious until the game is quit and restarted
11:57<Smoovious>yeah, thought that was basically what you were after
11:58<dihedral>i want data that will change on each new game
11:58<dihedral>i.e game reaches end of game date and a new one starts
11:59<Ammler>(the ingame date?)
11:59<dihedral>as if you start at 1946-01-01
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11:59<dihedral>every new game will give the same date
12:00<Eddi|zuHause3>but if you query often enough, the new date will be lower than the previous date...
12:01<dihedral>server goes down
12:01<dihedral>dont get any data
12:01<dihedral>server is loaded with a save game
12:01<dihedral>date is later than the one i already have
12:01<dihedral>and i would assume i have the same game
12:02<dihedral>i am hoping to do some mining
12:02<dihedral>store every move in a database
12:03<dihedral>as in when did who join which game :-D
12:03<dihedral>which company, performance of that company
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12:14<dihedral>if i set the game to never delete save games
12:15<dihedral>are they timestamped?
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12:15<dihedral>with the game date or the real timestamp
12:15<dihedral>na - forget it
12:15<dihedral>that is a nasty thought
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12:22<Smoovious>well, maybe if you use the autosaves... .. .
12:24<stillunknown>Did anyone know HandleLocomotiveSmokeCloud() is a bug resource user?
12:26<@peter1138>profiling unoptimized builds, eh?
12:28<stillunknown>peter1138: But seriously, it seems to represent a lot of the vehicle load.
12:29<stillunknown>35-40% if i had to guess/
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12:29<Smoovious>but what's a steamer without smoke?
12:29<stillunknown>The game i tested uses maglev.
12:29<eekee>exactly, lol
12:30<@peter1138>stationary :D
12:30<Noldo>stillunknown: what does it do?
12:30<stillunknown>Noldo: that function?
12:30<stillunknown>or something else
12:30<Smoovious>oh... well, if you're getting smoke on a maglev, sounds like a maintenance issue... run to depot more often? :P
12:30<Noldo>stillunknown: that function?
12:30<stillunknown>stillunknown: what does it do?
12:30<stillunknown>define it
12:30<@TrueBrain>so now it is time to play a bit OpenTTD :)
12:31<stillunknown>Maybe a patch option to disable smoke effects on all but steamers is sensible.
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12:31<stillunknown>No, that won't help, since it needs to determine if there are steamers in the first place.
12:31<dihedral>what happened to diagonal road crossings?
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12:32<eekee>stillunknown: OTTD already disables smoke on maglev / monorail, & besides, I'm sure some people like the diesel smoke. I do
12:32<stillunknown>eekee: i think iterating through a train every tick is a bad idea
12:33<eekee>O.o o.O isn't that done anyway? Anyway, don't assume, profile. Assuming makes an ass out of u & me :p
12:33[~]Phazorx wonders what is he doign wrong
12:33[~]eekee puts away his openttd game & reboots to activate a new kernel. won't be back until the nvidia driver works again, lol
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12:33<Phazorx>i'm trying to launch ottd within gdb
12:34<Phazorx>binary seems to work fine by itself
12:34<Phazorx>but in gdb after targeting it just exits
12:35<stillunknown>tried: make run-gdb
12:35<stillunknown>That should rule some user errors.
12:36<Phazorx>$ make run-gdb
12:36<Phazorx>target exec openttd.exe
12:36<Phazorx>r openttd.exe
12:36<+glx>why target?
12:36<Phazorx>Program exited normally
12:37<Phazorx>glx: i tihnk it was in manual ?
12:37<+glx>just type "r"
12:37<Eddi|zuHause3>just type "run <arguments>" in gdb
12:37<+glx>folowed by args
12:37<+glx>like r -g
12:38<Phazorx>that worked till segfault on 1st click
12:39<Eddi|zuHause3>then type bt
12:40<Phazorx>Eddi|zuHause3: i was trying to point out that it wasnt quite the result i expected
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12:41<Eddi|zuHause3>Phazorx: then you did something very wrong
12:41<dihedral>well done eekee
12:41<eekee>:d ty hehe ^^
12:41<Phazorx>Eddi|zuHause3: it didnt like server from config
12:41<Noldo>stillunknown: it should use the CHANCE functions to select which vehicles to puff with
12:42<Phazorx>cant listen :(
12:42<Phazorx>NetworkUDPSocketHandler::Listen(unsigned, unsigned short, bool) (this=0x1e48890, host=0, port=0, broadcast=1)
12:43<eekee>Guys, remember these locos puffed fine on 486s, it's probably the blitter that needs optimising or somehting
12:44<Phazorx>eekee: i dont remember having 1000 trains or 2048^2 maps on 486
12:44<eekee>well... :)
12:44<Phazorx>and i do remember terrible lag on modem play :)
12:45<Eddi|zuHause3>my TT games extremely lagged on my 386 DX 25 after like 10 years
12:46<Phazorx>i never had 386 :(
12:46<Eddi|zuHause3>it took months before i actually got to the first diesel engine
12:47<Eddi|zuHause3>and i never got an electric engine before i played it on a 468 (DX2-60 or so)
12:47<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause3: you are an old guy
12:48<Eddi|zuHause3>i was like 10 when TT came out
12:48<Phazorx>Ammler: look who's talking :)
12:48<Eddi|zuHause3>my father bought his brand new 486, and gave me his old 386
12:49<Eddi|zuHause3>at the same time he brought a gaming pack which contained the TT demo
12:49<Phazorx>anyway... i'd like to debug the issue i have but so far i can not get to it
12:49<Phazorx>any ideas?
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12:50<Luukland>Heya All, how can I save my scenario without copying the difficulty settings?
12:51<Luukland>(someone here :P ??)
12:51<Eddi|zuHause3>errr... i would think starting a scenario should overwrite the stored difficulty setting
12:52<Phazorx>cant you modify dficulty and save it as a game ?
12:52<@TrueBrain>lol, transfer rules: 10k pax waiting at a station, and I can't get them moved away :)
12:52<Luukland>Phazorx sure
12:52<Eddi|zuHause3>why not?
12:53<stillunknown>Is it possible to have a function in a subclass, and use that function without a empty virtual function in the base class?
12:53<Luukland>but i mean, if someone wants to play my scenario, can he/she choose whith which settings she/he would like to play....
12:53<Luukland>or is that not possible
12:54<Noldo>stillunknown: not from baseclass pointer
12:54<kaan>stillunknown: i dont know c++ that well but it should be possible i think
12:54<Phazorx>glx can you take a look at it plz
12:54<Phazorx>it should be something windows related and basic
12:54<Noldo>well there is dynamic_cast, but that's not very neat way to do anything
12:54<+glx>Phazorx: what rev?
12:55<Phazorx>i dount it it ottd related
12:55<@peter1138> 17.59 3.92 3.92 1000 0.00 0.00 CheckCargoPacketLeaks()
12:55<@peter1138> 11.57 6.50 2.58 511323 0.00 0.00 HandleLocomotiveSmokeCloud(Vehicle const*)
12:55<@peter1138> 3.99 7.39 0.89 12869237 0.00 0.00 BeginVehicleMove(Vehicle*)
12:55<@peter1138>that is pretty excessive
12:56<Phazorx>so steam is expensive on both gamecash and cpu?
12:56<Luukland>does someone here live on the island Jamaica?
12:57<Luukland>i need some info for my scenario :P
12:57<+glx>Phazorx: you started a server?
12:57<Phazorx>glx clicked on multiplayer button on 1st screen
12:58<Phazorx>then find server
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13:04<Luukland>If i would like to upload my scenario to the OTTD forum, what should the difficulty settings be?
13:04<+glx>Phazorx: it segfaulted for me too :/
13:05<Smoovious>Luukland... that's up to the one creating the scenario. :P
13:05<Luukland>ok :)
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13:06<stillunknown>peter1138: normally it seems hidden in the train controller, but once i started seperating and changing things i noticed it
13:06<@peter1138>stillunknown: i just removed the static.
13:06<stillunknown>Wondering what i had done wrong, i noticed the controller was light load now.
13:06<Phazorx>glx: in mingw?
13:07<+glx>yes in gdb
13:08<Phazorx>so... no gdb ?
13:08<+glx>maybe a bug fixed in newer rev as it doesn't segfault in r10295
13:08<Phazorx>hmm... that suxx
13:08<Eddi|zuHause3>it's funny... usually bugs like that disappear when adding debug stuff :p
13:09<Phazorx>reason why i started doing it - i get random CTDs from coopers box which is on 170
13:09<+glx>probably a memory curruption bug
13:10<@peter1138>yeah, uh, always debug using the current head revision...
13:10<stillunknown>Phazorx: In case i didn't tell you a while ago, train load scales by number of trains, train length and train speed
13:10<@peter1138>it's kinda pointless otherwise
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13:11<stillunknown>peter1138: An easy reduction can be gained from only doing smoke checks on engines.
13:12<Eddi|zuHause3>well, it might be a bug that is just more hidden, not actually fixed
13:12<Eddi|zuHause3>stillunknown: but powered wagons might also be able to smoke
13:12<Phazorx>stillunknown: length in cars or tiles ?
13:12<Phazorx>does it matter if they are secondary engines?
13:13<Prof_Frink>Eddi|zuHause3: But not in an enclosed public place after July 1
13:14<Noldo>what is the point of powered wagons and differentiating them from engines?
13:15<Eddi|zuHause3>Noldo: engines may be run by themselves, powered wagons are just regular wagons with an override
13:16<stillunknown>Phazorx: the bulk from the load comes from moving single vehicles
13:16<stillunknown>ofcource many very short trains vs one long train will always have a difference
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13:19<stillunknown>Phazorx: that's why 500 normal vs 1000 maglev trains is such a big difference
13:20<UnderBuilder>what should we do with the old newgrf system? having those 8bpp graphics with 32bpp will result in a not so nice contrast
13:21<stillunknown>8bpp will always be primary system
13:21<Eddi|zuHause3>UnderBuilder: why would that need a change?
13:21<UnderBuilder>newgrf is only 8bpp
13:22<Eddi|zuHause3>newgrf will always stay 8bpp
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13:22<UnderBuilder>the trouble will come when the 32bpp graphics come out
13:23<Luukland> << Comments please :)
13:23<Eddi|zuHause3>why would that be a trouble? the primary 32bpp gaphics will resemble the 8bpp graphics as close as possible
13:23<@peter1138>oh yeah
13:23<@peter1138>you know the method of using 32bpp graphics at the moment?
13:23<@peter1138>that works for newgrfs too...
13:24<@peter1138>stillunknown: do you think it's possible to have only one 'movement step' for high speed vehicles? currently of course it checks many things for each step...
13:25<stillunknown>peter1138: i've thought about that, but i first need to finish the clean up i'm doing
13:25<stillunknown>before even thinking about that
13:25<stillunknown>thinking = trying
13:26<stillunknown>Something along the lines of doing movement largely on a tile basis (for non-branching track) may be possible.
13:29<stillunknown>peter1138: your thoughts on this would be appreciated
13:29<@peter1138>more likely is just skipping some checks
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13:31<stillunknown>peter1138: have you looked at that thread?
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13:33<@peter1138>looking now
13:33<UnderBuilder>I thought that sergey was banned
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13:42<Luukland>btw. i am still searchin' for 7 people who want to sign in for the OTTD tournament, i already have 25 souls :P
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14:18<stillunknown>Since when can some engines not haul freight cars?
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14:24<Smoovious>like, which ones
14:24<Eddi|zuHause3>the ICE3 for example
14:24<stillunknown>AEM7 in the north american renewal set
14:25<Smoovious>is that an Amtrak engine?
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14:25<stillunknown>It did autoreplace it, but manually buying or cloning is a no go.
14:25<Eddi|zuHause3>it would be a stupid idea anyway
14:25<Eddi|zuHause3>stillunknown: then that is an autoreplace bug
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14:26<stillunknown>Also i can attach one freight car to the engine, but not more.
14:28<Smoovious>not finding it... which climate? and do you have any parameters set?
14:29<stillunknown>No parameters, artic climate.
14:30<Smoovious>I find no AEM7... sure you're talking about the right GRF?
14:30<Eddi|zuHause3>Smoovious: i think brianetta had NARS in his newgrf package...
14:31<Eddi|zuHause3>oh, you meant the engine, not the grf
14:32<Smoovious>I got NARS loaded and looking... there is no AEM7
14:32<Eddi|zuHause3>i can't help with that, i never used it
14:32<stillunknown>Sorry, it's USSET 0.86
14:33<Smoovious>uh huh
14:33<stillunknown>Look after 1990.
14:34<@TrueBrain>la al lalalalala la lal al al l al al l al al l al al l al a al l a a ala
14:35<Sacro>svn might be broken
14:36<@TrueBrain>hmm, you now have 'sv' and 'n'?
14:36<Smoovious>yeah, it looks like a bug... you shouldn't be able to put that first freight car on it
14:36<stillunknown>Can newgrf contain text messages?
14:36<Smoovious>the AEM7 is for Amtrack passenger service on electrified rail...
14:36<Smoovious>never designed for freight
14:37<Smoovious>Sacro... broken how?
14:37<Sacro>Smoovious: reporting a strange version number
14:38<Smoovious>whats the #?
14:38<Sacro>==> newer revision detected: 10296
14:38<Sacro>thats not right :\
14:38<Smoovious><DorpsGek> Commit by miham :: r10296 /trunk/src/lang (12 files) (2007-06-23 18:35:37 UTC)
14:38<Smoovious>submitted a bunch of language updates
14:39<Sacro>svn log $_svntrunk --limit 1 | sed -n 's/^r\([^ ]*\) .*$/\1/p'
14:39<stillunknown>Can newgrf contain error messages?
14:40<Sacro>think the regex is screwy
14:40<Smoovious>I'm so rusty on regex's... couldn't tell ya without a manual in front o f me
14:40<@TrueBrain>we need PBS :p
14:40<Eddi|zuHause3>stillunknown: yes, they can
14:41<Smoovious>almost done... PBS will be up in about an hour
14:41<Sacro>Smoovious: orly?
14:42<Eddi|zuHause3>i had an idea of implementing PBS by adding virtual (invisible) wagons in front of the engine
14:42<Sacro>ooh thats a clever idea
14:42<@TrueBrain>haha, very funny idea indeed :)
14:42<Prof_Frink>What we need is signals between tiles
14:42<eekee>We do, lol :D
14:43<Eddi|zuHause3>then you do not have to store a vehicle id in the tile, you can just look up vehicle by tile (hash?)
14:44<Eddi|zuHause3>so it would suffice to have a reserved bit in the map
14:45<Eddi|zuHause3>and the infrastructure to handle vehicles is already there, only needs very few improvements
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14:46<Phazorx>is 295 not working due to languages?
14:46<@TrueBrain>hmm, I am thinking about the idea of Eddi|zuHause3...
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14:47<@TrueBrain>it means you need to remove all signals all together
14:47<stillunknown>And you can never turn after the invisible wagons.
14:47<@TrueBrain>and allow trains to ride up till they find an other train
14:48<Eddi|zuHause3>no, signals will still be there... you need some place to stop expanding the vehicle chain
14:48<Eddi|zuHause3>if the virtual vehicle chain gets shorter than the braking distance, you extend it to the next signal
14:48<Smoovious>mount a long stick on the front of the train, seated against t he throttle control so when you get too close to another train you stop... just like in Money Train
14:49<Eddi|zuHause3>along the path that the pathfinder returns from the front virtual vehicle
14:49<Eddi|zuHause3>if you cannot extend the vehicle chain due to blocked path, order the train to stop at the previous signal
14:50<Eddi|zuHause3>which you can do, because it is within stopping distance
14:50<eekee>will this result in more "cannot remove track, train in the way" errors?
14:50<Phazorx>hmm... i could be doing soemthing wrong
14:50<stillunknown>There are situations were your logic will fail Eddi.
14:50<Smoovious>it would also enable a more realistic stopping distance too... variable length according to the power and speed of the train, and the weight/inertia...
14:50<Phazorx>but i just did a svn co -r10295
14:50<Eddi|zuHause3>this has the side effect that the "reserved path" can never change, because the vehicles are already there
14:51<Phazorx>and it comes with no languages
14:51<@TrueBrain>eekee: which in fact resolves all problems we had with modifiying the track when it is PBS reserved :)
14:51<eekee>Doh! XD
14:51<Eddi|zuHause3>also, you cannot modify tiles that have a virtual vehicle on it
14:51<eekee>Doh doh doh XD;
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14:51<Smoovious>10296 is the language commit, Phazorx
14:51<@TrueBrain>which, agian is a very nice idea
14:51<@TrueBrain>as it resolves all the problems :)
14:51<eekee>fair enough, but I'll have to change my emergency track surgury habbits, lol
14:51<Phazorx>so latest nighty is not working?
14:52<stillunknown>But please, call it something else than vehicle.
14:52<Smoovious>and if a train is stopped, there would be no reserved track ahead
14:52<stillunknown>Or at least a new type vehicle.
14:52<Smoovious>just call it stopping distance
14:53<Eddi|zuHause3>stillunknown: the whole idea builds on the reuse of existing vehicle code
14:53<@TrueBrain>downside of all this is, that for any attempt, you need to understand one of the PFs.....
14:53<eekee>"Cannot remove track, approaching train could not stop in time" How's that?
14:53<Smoovious>"Cannot remove reserved track."
14:53<stillunknown>Assumptions about pathfinders is a bad idea.
14:54<eekee>"reserved" makes me wonder what it's reserved for
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14:54<Smoovious>that's what a learning curve climb is for
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14:55<eekee>I need extra tractive effort to tackle learning climbs
14:55<Eddi|zuHause3>TrueBrain: why? if you want to attach a vehicle at the front, and it is on a switch tile, you run the pathfinder, and place the vehicle on the returned trackbit, that should be totally pathfinder agnostic (in the 'stupid' attempt, the pathfinder might later be tweaked to give penalty to reserved tiles)
14:55<Rubidium>18:51 < dihedral> aparantly it will be bound to fail ( or not relyable acording to Rubidium) <- when you have server side caching it'll generally work ok
14:55<Smoovious>if signals that have a branch after it, were set to default-red until an approaching train gets near it and it clears a route for it... .. .
14:56<Eddi|zuHause3>pathfinder will always be run from the front vehicle, it will just not be the engine anymore
14:56<@TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause3: even so I don't like that attempt in detail, you still have the part: "and place the vehicle on the returned trackbit", which means knowning the PF :p
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14:57<Eddi|zuHause3>TrueBrain: why? that is exactly what the moving code currently does, it removes the vehicle from the old place, and places it on the return value of the pathfinde
14:57<Eddi|zuHause3>just that now you would not remove the old vehicle anymore, just add a new one
14:58<@TrueBrain>you only forget that it won't be helping for any PBS alike thing, as the signals will be red
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14:58<Smoovious>like... say a signal only has one route to the next signal, it operates as ABS, and defaults to a proceed state... and if it has more than one route to the next signal (meaning 2 signals), then it defaults to a stop state... when a train approaches it, and no other train is cleared to that track, then the signal changes to proceed
14:58<Eddi|zuHause3>that is the next step, signals will always be red, unless there is a virtual vehicle on it
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14:59<Eddi|zuHause3>when there is a virtual vehicle on the signal tile, it means the train successfully reserved a path through it
14:59<Smoovious>well, assuming you want that kind of signalling to automatically become the appropriate one
15:00<Eddi|zuHause3>yes, all signals should be PBS...
15:00<stillunknown>Won't that put a considerable load on the vehicle hashmap?
15:00<stillunknown>A few junctions ok, but everywere, that can't be cheap.
15:01<stillunknown>Also realize that the vehicle map does not have the resolution needed for this task.
15:01<Smoovious>well, ya gotta choose... dumb signals that don't think much, like we got now... or smart signals...
15:01<Smoovious>oh bah
15:01<dihedral>Rubidium: thanks that is good to know
15:02<Smoovious>leave them alone... if they wanna try it let em try it...
15:02<Eddi|zuHause3>well, you can make those virtual vehicles as long as the tile... would reduce the amount of vehicles
15:02<stillunknown>What kind of resolution would you have for the vehicle map?
15:02[~]Hendikins would be quite content with dumb signals unless otherwise specified.
15:02<UnderBuilder>loading indicators are in trunk? from when?
15:03<stillunknown>A day, maybe two.
15:03<Smoovious>yeah, you don't need to have smart signals everywhere
15:03<stillunknown>Still, the vehiclemap currently has a resolution of 128x128.
15:03<Eddi|zuHause3>UnderBuilder: 'svn log | grep -i -C2 indicator'?
15:03<Smoovious>most signals just behave as ABS signals anyways
15:04<Hendikins>I'd have very limited use for "smart" signals. I'm used to working the dumb ones pretty well.
15:04<Eddi|zuHause3>stillunknown: you will not need to look up the vehicle often
15:04<Smoovious>you'll adjust. :P
15:04<Eddi|zuHause3>you have the reserved bit for the tile for an easy check
15:04<Smoovious>I was used to doing without pre-signals... I got over it. :D
15:05<stillunknown>Eddi: Every time you want to enter such a junction you must check all tiles in your path.
15:05<stillunknown>At a low resolution that's going to be ugly.
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15:07<Hendikins>I'd probably only find "smart" signals particularly useful early in the game before I could afford to grade separate all my junctions.
15:07<Sacro>Smoovious: it took me aaaaaaaages to get used to 2 way signals
15:07<Sacro>1 way even
15:07<Smoovious>well, that's up to you
15:07<Eddi|zuHause3>another optimisation: the virtual vehicles do not actually have to move, when the engine moves, just shorten the vehicle in front of the engine, if the engine leaves the tile, the vehicle will have length 0, get deleted, and the engine attached to the next vehicle
15:08<Smoovious>there's some tight spaces to get into tho... especially if there are other companies at the same place
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15:08<Eddi|zuHause3>if such a vehicle gets deleted, check the breaking distance (length of the vehicle chain can be cached value)
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15:09<Eddi|zuHause3>braking distance should be an easy function of cached weight and current speed
15:09<Smoovious>maybe up/downhill too
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15:09<Smoovious># of engines will help add to braking effort too
15:10<Sacro>and what kind of engine
15:10<Eddi|zuHause3>usually all wagons have brakes...
15:10<Sacro>and the UKRS brake van!
15:10<Eddi|zuHause3>but that is a decision that can be made much later...
15:11<Smoovious>yeah, but multiple engines increase how fast you can trip the brakes... plus active braking from the traction wheels
15:11<Eddi|zuHause3>tripping brakes should always be instant...
15:11<Smoovious>1 engine would take 3 times as long to brake, as 3 engines would
15:11<Smoovious>no way
15:11<Sacro>Smoovious: not true
15:12<Smoovious>it takes time to bleed out the air
15:12<Smoovious>well, depending on the brakes
15:12<Sacro>it depends on the weight of the engine
15:12<Sacro>and its braking power
15:12<Smoovious>for automatic braking with the traction wheels, yes
15:12<Eddi|zuHause3>Smoovious: in germany, brakes are usually pneumatic, the brakes are under pressure initially, and if someone hits the emergency brake, pressure is removed and the brakes hit
15:13<Sacro>thats how a westinghouse brake works
15:13<Smoovious>yeah, that's how the vast majority of the brakes on US rolling stock is now too... but some still use the pressurized brakes to apply
15:14<Eddi|zuHause3>i'd consider that pretty unsafe...
15:14<Smoovious>(and yes, I'm aware I was getting that part backwards initially)... I was talking more about dynamic braking
15:15<Eddi|zuHause3>i'm gone watching something... have a nice discussion :)
15:15<Smoovious>anyways, the longer a train is, the longer it takes for the pressure to drop through the line for all of t he brakes to engage
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15:17<@peter1138>what's all this crap about virtual wagons?
15:18<Smoovious>it is for shipping programs
15:19<stillunknown>peter1138: did you have a look?
15:19<stillunknown>at the patch
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15:20<@peter1138>ages ago, yes
15:20<stillunknown>Odd definition of ages.
15:25<Prof_Frink>stillunknown: You overestimate his attention spa-ooh a squirrel!
15:26<kaan>I had a look at it, but i gave up cause im too tired
15:26<kaan>I like the idea though
15:29<kaan>general question: how much space on your HD is used by pr0n?
15:30<Sacro>kaan: about 12GB i think
15:30<kaan>huh? well people really are gone for the night
15:30<kaan>oh, there you are ;)
15:31<kaan>hmmm, i better find out myself now that i brought it up
15:31<Smoovious>well, 70% now
15:31<kaan>hmm, 28GB
15:31<eekee>I feel clean, lol
15:32<kaan>good thing i got that extra HD
15:32<@peter1138>why do you have so much?
15:32<@peter1138>what do you do with it? rewatch it?
15:32<Smoovious>small hd's?
15:32<kaan>i forget to delete it when i stop laughing
15:32<eekee>$ du -s .private/
15:32<eekee>100M .private/
15:32<eekee>And I thought I was so dirty...
15:32<kaan>oh there is a few that i keep for good
15:33<Smoovious>I downloaded more than I've looked at... most I have no clue what it is
15:33<Smoovious>gradually getting it cleared out
15:35<@peter1138>Waiting: 9,225 passengers :o
15:35<kaan>it all went bad when i found the pirate bay
15:37<@TrueBrain>why does playing OpenTTD at a certain time becomes boring?
15:37<kaan>eekee: why the hidden folder? mine is \My Documents\Pr0n\
15:37<eekee>eh, friends...
15:37<@peter1138>TrueBrain: cos i never finished my pbs implementation!
15:37<@TrueBrain>you have one too?
15:37<kaan>TrueBrain: thats is a very broad question, splease narrow it down a bit
15:38<@peter1138>TrueBrain: only very vaguely, heh
15:38<kaan>eekee: oh, I see ...
15:38<@peter1138>i think i got as far as track reservation ;p
15:38<@TrueBrain>I have seen 3 ideas in the last 24 hours :p
15:38<@peter1138>but really there isn't much to it
15:38<@peter1138>although virtual wagons sounds like a stupid idea
15:39<@TrueBrain>for a static PBS, yes, but not for other types of PBS
15:40<kaan>just out of curiosity: what is the two biggest issues concerning PBS?
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15:40<@peter1138>someone writing it
15:41<@TrueBrain>staying correct after track modification
15:41<kaan>hmm, ok
15:41<@peter1138>if (reserved) donotallowmodification
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15:42<kaan>peter1138: or let the train crash when it runs out of expected track, then they will learn
15:43<+glx>and don't mess the system when a train decides to reverse
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15:43<@peter1138>i still think tekky's stuff has potential
15:43<kaan>very much so
15:43<@peter1138>even if it'll confuse some people, heh
15:44<kaan>but there should probably be a "light" version for the peeps
15:44<Smoovious>keeps the riff-raff out of the advanced games. ;)
15:46<kaan>well i havent looked too hard at that part of the code, but wouldnt it help if the signal code was seperated from the rest?
15:48<Sacro>yes, i plan on ripping the signal code out
15:49<kaan>ok, sounds nice, hvae you planned when?
15:50<dihedral>g'night ladies
15:50<kaan>night dihedral
15:50<dihedral>i need my bed
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16:12<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r10298 /trunk/src/ (6 files in 2 dirs):
16:12<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Fix [FS#903]: show the subdirectory below the default data directory in this
16:12<CIA-1>OpenTTD: filename in the newgrf list. The directory was removed in r9560 because then it
16:12<CIA-1>OpenTTD: used to full path instead of the path relative to the data directory, but since
16:12<CIA-1>OpenTTD: the inclusion of "search paths" that is not necessary anymore.
16:13<Hendikins>Heh, go CityRail, do the media release about a proposed fare increase on a Saturday when nobody is looking...
16:17<Smoovious>um... Rubidium... what does "This will duplicate removal will not be removed." mean? and... if I have 2 identical NewGRF's in different places, I'd really like to see em so I can do something about it
16:18<Rubidium>remove the first will and the sentence will make sense
16:19<Smoovious>ok... but would still want to see the duplicates...
16:19<Smoovious>otherwise I'd need another program to compare the ID's and MD5's to figure out which one(s) I can safely delete
16:21<Smoovious>it was very handy for that
16:21<Rubidium>that will become very ugly and unmaintainable
16:21<Smoovious>with 4 installations of openttd, I'm constantly copying and moving GRF's back and forth, until it is so messy it is unmanageable
16:22<Rubidium>that's what "search paths" solves
16:22<Smoovious>being ugly is the point of seeing them... I can see the ugly, and fix it
16:22<Rubidium>you only need 1 place for all your grfs
16:22<Smoovious>it doesn't solve i t tho
16:22<@peter1138>just put all your extra grfs (including trg*) in ~/.openttd/data :)
16:22<Smoovious>except lots of GRF's have the same name
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16:23<@peter1138>or subdirs of data
16:23<@peter1138>what's the problem?
16:23<Smoovious>I moved them out of ../data intentionalaly to keep them seperate from the grf's that have to stay with the game
16:23<Rubidium>Smoovious: the "problem" is that when you put a list of files in openttf.cfg, that files will also be duplicate in the list (AFAIK)
16:23<Smoovious>oh, the old NewGRF display behavior changed so I can't use it to
16:24<Smoovious>that's what I want... I want them to be duplicate, so I can see the duplicates, and where thhe duplicates are, so I know which one I can delete without losing one
16:24<Smoovious>I got 5 av8w grf's right now...
16:24<Smoovious>all different versions
16:25<Rubidium>Smoovious: what I meant is: all files you put in the [newgrf] section of openttd.cfg would turn up as duplicates in the list
16:25<Smoovious>I did have some duplicates I removed before
16:25<Smoovious>yes, I know
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16:25<Smoovious>and what I meant is... I WANT IT TO DO THAT
16:25[~]Smoovious sighs.
16:25<Rubidium>WHY do you want files that are only ONCE on your disk to show up TWICE?
16:25<Smoovious>ifi it finds a NewGRF, even if it is a duplicate, display it in the list, so I can see that it is a duplicate instead of a different version
16:26<@peter1138>Smoovious: you are barking up the wrong tree
16:26<Smoovious>I don't want files that are on my disk once, to show up twice... I want files that are on my disk twice, to show up twice
16:26<Rubidium>Smoovious: you really don't get me
16:26<Rubidium>really listen to what I say!
16:26<Smoovious>ok, go ahead... try again
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16:26<+glx>Smoovious: put all newgrf in one place :)
16:27<Rubidium>IF a newgrf is listed in the [newgrf] or [newgrf-static] section of openttd.cfg it WILL show those files you listed in openttd.cfg as DUPLICATES when they are not duplicates
16:27<+glx>no need to have them in all openttd dis
16:27<Smoovious>will it show them as duplicates, if they are duplicates?
16:28[~]peter1138 has 4 pb_viaduct.grfs listed
16:28<@peter1138>2 are the same
16:28<@peter1138>so what's the problem?
16:28<Rubidium>showing a file twice when it exists only once on the list is not GOOD
16:29<Smoovious>ok... well, that is a problem I never had
16:29<Rubidium>well, you could've when you were using Windows
16:29<Smoovious>just so long as if I can see I have the same GRF in .\newgrfs\av8w.grf and .\standard\av8w.grf , then I'm good
16:30<Smoovious>I'm using windows
16:30<@peter1138>you're talking about the wrong lit
16:30<Smoovious>I just never manually edit the cfg file... I have openttd do the rescan itself
16:30<@peter1138>NewGRF settings versus Available NewGRF files
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16:30<Smoovious>right... available NewGRF files is what my bug report was about
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16:31<Rubidium>Smoovious: and when current working directory == directory of binary it will show all files in that directory as duplicate when they are not
16:31<Smoovious>why would the binary be in the data dir?
16:32[~]Smoovious shrugs.
16:32<Smoovious>well, will take a look when I get back up to the current revision...
16:33<Smoovious>still getting my other 2 patches current again
16:33<Rubidium>Smoovious: you really must READ what I say
16:33<Smoovious>I did read it
16:33<Rubidium>if "working directory" == "directory where the binary is in"
16:33<Rubidium>this has nothing to do with the binary being in the data directory
16:33<Smoovious>sorry, but just cuz it was clear to you, who made the change, doesn't mean it was clear to me...
16:34<Rubidium>because the data directory would be "working directory"/data/ and "directory where the binary is in"/data/
16:34<Smoovious>so it doesn't search subdirs of the data directory, but subdirectories of openttd's home dir?
16:34<Rubidium>no, it searches subdirs of the data directory
16:35<Smoovious>then... but not the home dir?
16:35<Rubidium>but if the directory where the data directory is in shows up twice in the found "search paths" it will scan that data directory
16:35<+glx>it searches in "working dir"/data, "openttd.exe dir"/data, mydocs/openttd/data, ...
16:36<Smoovious>ok... so it doesn't know when working-dir and home-dir are the same then
16:38<Rubidium>it's even very hard to determine that they are actually the same in all cases
16:38<Smoovious>that's kinda hard to believe
16:38<Rubidium>like when I symlink .openttd to openttd and start from openttd. It will not know that .openttd and openttd are actually the same
16:39<+glx>hmm for windows you can just strcmp the paths :)
16:39<+glx>but I agree it can be harder for other platforms
16:40<Smoovious>ok... that makes sense... but expanding the placeholders and comparing the resulting paths would be a fairly simple check
16:41<Smoovious>anyways, so long as I still see genuine duplicates, I'm good...
16:41<Rubidium>glx: you can't
16:42<Rubidium>well, not the stuff from openttd.cfg and what it finds itself
16:43<Rubidium>and, Windows has symlinks or something looking like symlinks too
16:43<Smoovious>btw... just to needle a bit... I did read... and what I read, was "... so if you have the exact same grf in multiple directories, it will not show."... which was why I was arguing so hard. :P
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17:11<stillunknown>Rubidium: the show all cargo bug is back
17:12<Rubidium>stillunknown: back as in? I loaded a savegame that already had that issue?
17:12<stillunknown>The issue is not selfcorrecting?
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17:12<stillunknown>In that case, it must be the first time i noticed it again.
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17:14<Rubidium>stillunknown: well, I think it is, but after something like 2 games years I think
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17:31<Eddi|zuHause3>hm... after almost one year you decide to close a feature request just like that? ...
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17:50<Smoovious>cleaning out the fridge...
17:51<@TrueBrain>yeah, needed from time to time
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17:52<@TrueBrain>and now: goodnight!
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18:59<Ailure>timetable system would be easier if there was a average travelling next to each travel D:
19:01<eekee>mmm, lot of guesswork & trial & error involved
19:02<kaan>night all
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20:26<Sacro_> --enable-the-force enable if you are Luke Skywalker and the force is
20:26<Sacro_> with you [default=no]
20:28[~]Smoovious rolls his eyes at FS#930
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22:16<mikk36[EST]>i can't find replace vehicles in latest nightly
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22:36<Ailure>look under manage list
22:37<Ailure>it's a dropdown menu
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23:22<Jerub>it feels like cheating to have a train that can carry nearly 1000 passengers :)
23:26<Smoovious>if you only have 1 car on the engine, it is
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23:37<LittleMikey>Hello channel
23:37<LittleMikey>I typed in /join #openttd and it worked, i'm impressed ^_^
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23:46<benc_>whats on your mind
23:52<Smoovious>oh... just couldn't decide on which comment to say about Mikey
---Logclosed Sun Jun 24 00:00:21 2007