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#openttd IRC Logs for 2007-07-04

---Logopened Wed Jul 04 00:00:00 2007
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00:49<Dutchtransporttycoon>hello polks
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01:38<CIA-1>OpenTTD: peter1138 * r10430 /trunk/src/newgrf_town.cpp: -Fix: Too many town rating entry lookups (KUDr)
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02:26<dihedral>morning ladies
02:27<dihedral>!seen Chris82
02:27<_42_>dihedral, Chris82 (~chris@p579E1FC0.dip.t-dialin.net) was last seen quitting #openttd 13 hours 2 minutes ago (03.07. 18:25) stating "Quit: Mathwork =Oxxx" after spending 5 hours 10 minutes there.
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02:43<Maedhros>oh joy. my FOR_EACH_OBJECT patch is 40kb...
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02:56<dihedral>Maedhros: lol
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03:59<@peter1138>wibble
04:02<scia>wobble
04:03<hylje>wabble
04:04<TheMask96>wubble
04:07<Gekkko`>I HATE BRACES
04:09<@peter1138>{ { { { have some more } } } }
04:12<Biff>{:-)
04:14<hylje>:-}}}}}}}}}}}}}
04:24<Gekkko`>not those braces nublet
04:24<Gekkko`>the ones in your mouth
04:24<Sionide>lol
04:24<@peter1138>nope, none in my mouth
04:25<Gekkko`>in my mouth
04:26<Gekkko`>screw you technicality boy.
04:27[~]Sionide draws a { on peter1138's cheek in permanent marker pen and a } on the other one
04:27<Sionide>baha!
04:32<@peter1138>cheers
04:32<Maedhros>peter1138: what do you think of this? http://devs.openttd.org/~maedhros/for_each_object-r10429.diff
04:33<Maedhros>i'm not sure if stations should work this way though; the specs are a bit vague about it...
04:34<@peter1138>well i can think of one problem
04:34<@peter1138>if you're defining multiple properties...
04:34<@peter1138>and it goes 'past the end'
04:34<@peter1138>if it continues you'll be reading the wrong data
04:35<Maedhros>true, although that's already a problem
04:36<@peter1138>yeah
04:36<@peter1138>we need to know how to skip each property :p
04:36<@peter1138>err
04:36<@peter1138>:o
04:36<@peter1138>and i need to know how to access access databases from linux :/
04:38[~]Maedhros wonders whether moving the for loop outside the switch statement would be a good idea
04:40<@peter1138>i wondered about that last night too
04:40<@peter1138>would seem to remove a lot of duplication
04:40<Maedhros>yeah
04:41<Gekkko`>peter1138: MS Access Databases?
04:41<Gekkko`>OpenOffice I'd presume.
04:41<@peter1138>Gekkko`: no such luck
04:41<caladan>mysql?
04:41[~]Gekkko` goes to the Googlemonster for assistance
04:41<Gekkko`>caladan: rofl @ you
04:41<@peter1138>no, mysql cannot access an access database, heh
04:41<CIA-1>OpenTTD: peter1138 * r10431 /trunk/src/newgrf_station.cpp: -Codechange: constness on static array
04:42<caladan>ah, access, argh :]
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04:43<CIA-1>OpenTTD: peter1138 * r10432 /trunk/src/rail_cmd.cpp: -Codechange: use existing function instead of data duplication
04:43<Gekkko`>Kexi is a Free/Libre and Open-Source integrated data management application, a long awaited Open Source competitor for products like Microsoft Access. Kexi can be used for creating database schemas, inserting data, performing queries, and processing data. Forms can be created to provide a custom interface to your data. All database objects - tables, queries and forms - are stored in the relational
04:43<Gekkko`>dunno if it loads access dbs though
04:43<@peter1138>kexi-mdb-plugin - MS Access (MDB) driver for Kexi
04:43<Gekkko`>well then
04:43<Gekkko`>we win.
04:44<@peter1138>but then i have to install kdelibs ;(
04:44<@peter1138>93MB, heh
04:44<Gekkko`>you can tone it down
04:44<Gekkko`>ill find you the tut
04:44<Gekkko`>that makes it like 15mb
04:47<@peter1138>Maedhros: if you move it out of the loop then i don't think you need any FOR_EACH_OBJECT macro...
04:47<@peter1138>errr
04:47<@peter1138>move the switch into the loop. yes.
04:47<Gekkko`>peter1138: http://amarok.kde.org/wiki/KDElibs_without_aRts
04:47<@peter1138>buggered if i'm self compiling :p
04:48<Gekkko`>lazy basterd
04:48<Gekkko`>" If you want a minimal Qt too, then you can quite easily compile Qt with minimal dependencies. Here's my configure line:
04:48<Gekkko`>./configure \
04:48<Gekkko`> -release -fast -thread \
04:48<Gekkko`> -qt-gif \
04:48<Gekkko`> -plugin-imgfmt-mng -qt-imgfmt-jpeg -qt-imgfmt-png \
04:48<Gekkko`> -system-libpng -system-libjpeg -system-zlib -system-libmng \
04:48<Gekkko`> -no-exceptions -no-tablet -no-cups -no-ipv6 -no-xinerama -no-stl -no-nas-sound \
04:48<Gekkko`> -dlopen-opengl \
04:48<Gekkko`> -no-style-motif -no-style-cde -no-style-motifplus -no-style-platinum -no-style-sgi
04:48<Maedhros>argh!
04:48<Gekkko`>QT just got owned/
04:49<@peter1138>Maedhros/
04:51<@peter1138>i'm installing it anyway...
04:51<@peter1138>finished downloading...
04:51<Gekkko`>lazy lazy peter1138
04:51<@peter1138>made a note of the packages so i can remove it easily
04:52<@peter1138>no, self-compiling stuff brings me to a world of pain
04:52<@peter1138>KCrash: Application 'kexi' crashing...
04:52<@peter1138>Could not find 'drkonqi' executable.
04:52<@peter1138>KCrash cannot reach kdeinit, launching direc
04:52<@peter1138>lovely
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05:02<Maedhros>this is going to be a giant diff ;) so far: http://devs.openttd.org/~maedhros/action_0_resuffle-part1.diff
05:02<Maedhros>and now i have another 7 action 0 handlers to do :)
05:04<hylje>yay for context
05:08<@peter1138>Maedhros: 0x21's broken
05:08<@peter1138>0x27 doesn't need the { }s
05:10<Maedhros>merci
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05:30<dihedral>someone was offered a vehicle a year early in the forums... check it out gusy
05:30<dihedral>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?t=32886
05:32<dihedral>this is rather sad - but amusing :-)
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05:32<hylje>dont vehicles have +-2 year margin in introduction?
05:33<Rubidium>hylje: so? there's always one company that may use the verhicle one year before the others
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05:34<hylje>yes
05:35<Rubidium>that's what dihedral meant
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05:52<Gekkko`>that's one screwed up bored dude
06:04<dihedral>was that your autobiography?
06:04<dihedral>"one screwed up bored dude" :-P
06:04<dihedral>j/k
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06:09<Gekkko`>dihedral: yes.
06:09<Gekkko`>yes it is
06:09<Gekkko`>and I just remember you're an ass.
06:09<Gekkko`>lol
06:11<Maedhros>phew, 'tis done: http://devs.openttd.org/~maedhros/action_0_resuffle.diff
06:17<Sacro>Maedhros: suffle?
06:17<Maedhros>hehe, oops
06:17<Sacro>all that work and you misspelt the filename... start again :p
06:18<@peter1138>+cs->label = BSWAP32(grf_load_dword(&buf));
06:18<@peter1138>not good
06:18<@peter1138>it's separate for a reason :)
06:18<@peter1138>unless BSWAP32() is no longer a macro
06:18<Maedhros>ok, i was going to ask you about that one anyway :)
06:19<Maedhros>oooh, of course
06:19<@peter1138>it will call grf_load_dword(&buf) four times :)
06:39<Eddi|zuHause3>maybe you should use an inline function instead :9
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06:40<[BDS]-Klaus>hi all
06:40<@peter1138>macros suck :D
06:41<Sacro>http://xkcd.com/c285.html HAHAHA
06:41<Phazorx>morning
06:41<@peter1138>old
06:43<hylje>:D
06:47<Maedhros>ok, i've update the "resuffle" with various minor changes
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06:55<Eddi|zuHause3>a "lost terminal", does that only let you enter "4 8 15 16 23 42"?
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07:12<Brianetta>http://xkcd.com/c253.html <-- just like some of the stuff we see
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07:17<caladan>i like most the strip with guy being struck by lightning after touching lever
07:18<caladan>http://xkcd.com/c242.html
07:18<caladan>and it's the same with debbuging code - will it happen again? :D
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07:24<SmatZ>caladan: oh no, another comics site, now I will waste whole day looking at all ofthose strips :D
07:26<toresbe>wth
07:26<toresbe>you haven't heard of xkcd before?!
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07:29<caladan>SmatZ: not a whole day, they have like 250 strips
07:30<caladan>xkcd is a damn geek comic :D
07:30<Sacro>SmatZ: xkcd is amazing
07:30<hylje>in contrast long-running daily comics are approaching like 2000
07:30<Sacro>but don't forget to read all the mouseovers
07:30<hylje>see toothpaste for dinner (dot com)
07:30<Sacro>megatokyo :D
07:30<caladan>ah, yeah, megatokyo... haven't read it in months...
07:31<hylje>i havent ever read it
07:31<hylje>but i have read dramu about it
07:31<Sacro>what else do i read...
07:31<Sacro>whats the one with the murderer
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07:53<CIA-1>OpenTTD: maedhros * r10433 /trunk/src/newgrf.cpp:
07:53<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Codechange: Remove FOR_EACH_OBJECT by moving the for loops in the Action 0
07:53<CIA-1>OpenTTD: handlers outside the switch statements. This allows ignoring only the invalid
07:53<CIA-1>OpenTTD: IDs when changing the properties for many objects, rather than ignoring the
07:53<CIA-1>OpenTTD: whole block if one ID is invalid.
07:53<Maedhros>Phazorx: that fixes your infinite loop, by the way :)
07:57<CIA-1>OpenTTD: maedhros * r10434 /trunk/src/newgrf.cpp: -Fix (r9315): When setting multiple house overrides in one Action 0, don't override them all with the first ID.
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08:01<hylje>:O
08:02<CIA-1>OpenTTD: maedhros * r10435 /trunk/src/newgrf.cpp: -Fix (r9315): numinfo starts from 1, not 0, so make it possible to define a house with a local id of 255.
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08:30<CIA-1>OpenTTD: maedhros * r10436 /trunk/src/newgrf.cpp: -Cleanup: Doxygenise some comments, update others, and make a few statements more consistent with everything else.
08:31<Eddi|zuHause3>someone's on a roll :)
08:33<Maedhros>when you start out there are so many other things you (or other people) notice :D
08:33<hylje>flow
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08:46<SmatZ>caladan Sacro thanks, I am just reading it - now I got a problem - http://xkcd.com/c197.html - if you can hardly distinguis those two colors (red/green), the strip has a different meaning :)
08:47<Sacro>SmatZ: does it?
08:47<Sacro>:o
08:48<SmatZ>yes, just a graph with two the same colors with the same colors at legend ... takes some time to understand those colors have to be different :)
08:48<Sacro>:\
08:48<Sacro>ooh yes
08:49<Sacro>i've just ran it through visicheck
08:49<Sacro>and it isn't very clear
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08:49<SmatZ>you are really fast :)
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08:54<@peter1138>but they're totally differen t;p
08:55<SmatZ>http://colorfilter.wickline.org/?a=1;r=www.google.cz/search%3Fq%3Dcolorblind%2Bweb%2Bfilter%26ie%3Dutf-8%26oe%3Dutf-8%26aq%3Dt%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla%3Acs-CZ%3Aofficial%26client%3Dfirefox-a;l=9;j=1;u=xkcd.com/c197.html;t=d
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08:56<SmatZ>those filters are not perfect... as everyone has a different amount of red and green cones :)
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09:20<hylje>btw
09:21<hylje>how long can signs nowadays be?
09:22<XeryusTC>31 characters
09:22<XeryusTC>or 255 pixels wide IIRC
09:22<hylje>but you can stack them
09:22<XeryusTC>that's for the sign edit window
09:22<hylje>why cant the gui concatenate them? :-)
09:23<XeryusTC>the sign renderer has a max amount of width it can render
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09:23<hylje>:o
09:23|-|glx changed nick to Guest413
09:23|-|glx|away changed nick to glx
09:28<Sacro>A BUG
09:28[~]Sacro just tried to delete a peice of road
09:28<Sacro>player.h line 241
09:29<Sacro>IS_INSIDE_1D(i, PLAYER_FIRST, lengthof(_players))
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09:30<@peter1138>http://bugs.openttd.org/
09:30<Sacro>and its reproducibe
09:30<Sacro>but its 2 nightlies ago
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09:36<stillunknown>Is it stored in the map if a bridge ramp is level or not?
09:36<+glx>Sacro: try with r10145 :)
09:37<Sacro>glx: i have to wait for orudge to update his server
09:38<+glx>hmm r10415 indeed
09:39<hylje>http://zip.4chan.org/tg/src/1183553298062.jpg
09:39<Sacro>whoops
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09:41<dihedral>hylje: i wonder if those waggons spinned as much as the ones in ottd do when there is a crash :-)
09:42<Sacro>hahaga
09:48<@peter1138>stillunknown: i think it isn't
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10:11<skidd13>!seen Frostregen
10:11<_42_>skidd13, Hum... don't you think this nick is a bit long? ^_^
10:11<Frostregen>i'm here
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10:21<@peter1138>!seen some long nicks that can be used on irc
10:21<_42_>peter1138, some? hmm... I'm trying to remember... maybe... I'm not sure... no. I don't remember some.
10:21<@peter1138>stupid bot
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11:01<Phazorx>Maedhros: thanks, so TTRS is absolutely safe to use even forcing certain gae?
11:01<Phazorx>age
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11:09<Maedhros>Phazorx: unless you find any other bugs in it, yes ;)
11:09<Maedhros>s/in/with/
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11:10<Sacro>HAHAHHAHAHAHAHAA
11:10<Sacro>can someone join this server, its hilarious ><
11:10<Sacro>KuDr: i *might have a slight pathfinding issue
11:12<KUDr>where?
11:12<Phazorx>Maedhros: it's bound to happen sometimes, i'm glad that one is gone though... was kinda anoyying since i cant debug even
11:12<Sacro>KuDr: seems i was missing a bit of track
11:13<Sacro>i had a train going round a 4 90 degree turns
11:13<KUDr>:)
11:13<Sacro>in a circle ><
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11:26<Sacro>the timetable window seriously needs more redraw commands
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11:36<@peter1138>more redraw? hmm?
11:37<Sacro>peter1138: there is a bug
11:38<Sacro>Johnmit has -29K Max Income
11:38<Sacro>and its underflowed when drawing the box on detailed perf rating
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11:43<@peter1138>hmm nope
11:43<@peter1138>i don't see it in the list of bugs
11:47[~]Sacro sighs
11:47<Sacro>:(
11:52<@peter1138>hmm?
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11:58<UnderBuilder>hey is someone from the franchise game here?
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12:09<Sacro>UnderBuilder: aye
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12:12<Tlustoch>Hello
12:12<Tlustoch>Please can you tell me what's the maximum size of train station?
12:13<Sacro>it depends on the station spread setting
12:14<Tlustoch>What's some useful size? (For passenger transport)
12:14<Tlustoch>Is it meaningful to build extra large stations in the city?
12:14<Sacro>it all depends on throughput
12:15<Tlustoch>Well, the city can generate only certain number of passangers so I guess it would be meaningless to build something extra large.
12:16<hylje>the city grows over time
12:17<Tlustoch>But the station can cover only limited area.
12:17<UnderBuilder>Sacro: its because I wanted to join but seems that team is full :(
12:17<hylje>you can "walk" it if you liek huge stations
12:18<Sacro>UnderBuilder: indeed... no more companies :(
12:18<hylje>:o
12:18<Digitalfox>Tlustoch: Why not build more than one station...
12:19<Digitalfox>Even if the city grows you can always build more stations, even if they are trains, buses or planes
12:19<Tlustoch>Sure. I was just asking if there's some _optional_ size of station in the city.
12:19<hylje>it really depends. theres no magic bullet.
12:20<Tlustoch>:-)
12:20<Tlustoch>Btw does anyone want to play online with me?
12:21<Digitalfox>Tlustoch: What you have to keep in mind, is that you should build or a big one ( witch in a big city will never cache all the buildings ) or use more small ones that can catch a lot more
12:21<UnderBuilder>but can I spectate or is that private?
12:21<CIA-1>OpenTTD: peter1138 * r10437 /trunk/src/ (rail_cmd.cpp rail_gui.cpp):
12:21<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Feature: Automatic signal completion, enabled by pressing ctrl when dragging
12:21<CIA-1>OpenTTD: signals. Signals will continue following track until an existing signal,
12:21<CIA-1>OpenTTD: junction or station are reached. This currently replaces the existing use of
12:21<CIA-1>OpenTTD: ctrl-drag for changing existing signal type.
12:21<hylje>heh
12:21<hylje>i just svn up'd
12:22<hylje>damn you peter1138 for making me do it again >:)
12:22<Phazorx>peter1138: briges and tunnels are ignored?
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12:31<Tlustoch>And how do you handle rails in the city? Do you build underground or in the city?
12:31<hylje>you plan ahead :)
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12:32<Tlustoch>When you have enough money, you can build underground without problems
12:32<Tlustoch>So you save space for houses :-)
12:34<Tlustoch>By the way is there some advanced player here?
12:35<Tlustoch>I would like to see save of some really good game.
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12:35<hylje>heh
12:36<hylje>i just added some newgrf halfway into a game
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12:37<stillunknown>Tlustoch: openttdcoop keeps an archive of their games
12:38|-|Nickman changed nick to Nickman^Away
12:46<Tlustoch>Looks boring :-)
12:46<Tlustoch>You didn't try to "build" city all over the map?
12:46<Tlustoch>Or something extraordinary?
12:51<hylje>added trams
12:52<CIA-1>OpenTTD: miham * r10438 /trunk/src/lang/ (4 files):
12:52<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update: WebTranslator2 update to 2007-07-04 19:52:16
12:52<CIA-1>OpenTTD: american - 20 fixed by WhiteRabbit (20)
12:52<CIA-1>OpenTTD: danish - 21 fixed, 1 changed by ThomasA (22)
12:52<CIA-1>OpenTTD: portuguese - 10 fixed by izhirahider (10)
12:52<CIA-1>OpenTTD: traditional_chinese - 2 changed by xbddc (2)
12:54<Thomas[NL]>what does this exactly mean?: ParamSet: GRM: Unable to allocate 116 sprites; try changing NewGRF order
12:54|-||Jeroen| [~jeroen@d51A43614.access.telenet.be] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
12:55<@peter1138>it means you're trying to load multiple vehicle sets
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12:55<Thomas[NL]>the grf giving the error is ttrs3
12:56<@peter1138>oh
12:57<@peter1138>sorry, i can't read :)
12:57<@peter1138>it means what it says
12:57<@peter1138>it could allocate some sprites
12:57<@peter1138>GRM sprites currently have to be below the old 16384 sprite limit
12:57<@peter1138>so... just move ttrs3 further up the newgrf list
13:02<Thomas[NL]>hmm strange DBsetXL overrides the road/rail crossing with the original sprite :/
13:02<@peter1138>yes
13:02<Thomas[NL]>why?
13:02<@peter1138>because it changes the crossing graphics
13:02<@peter1138>you can disable it
13:03<@peter1138>it tells you how in its readme file
13:03<Thomas[NL]>ok ty
13:03<+glx>I though it was a donotreadme :)
13:03<@peter1138>glx: don't be silly... nobody would read that ;)
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13:06<Thomas[NL]>I never actually played long with dbxl so didn't really look for the parameters
13:06<Thomas[NL]>And these semaphores where different looking, I wasn't confused :)
13:21<stillunknown>peter1138: Why keep the limit for that?
13:22<@peter1138>because GRM is a nasty horrible hack which i can't do anything about
13:23<UnderBuilder>someone wants to play on a server?
13:23<@peter1138>stillunknown: it has to 'write back' the grm data to the grf, where it is still limited to 14 bits for sprite ids
13:25<@peter1138>fortunately all action 1/2/3 stuff (vehicles, houses, industries, stations) does not have that limitation
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13:27<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r10439 /trunk/src/ (5 files): -Codechange: initial steps for customized industry productions.
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13:42<stillunknown>I hate it when i get these segfaults that don't let themselves be traced.
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13:56<@peter1138>oic
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14:02<SteamWilly>is there any way to disable the 'cash-bubbles' and the 'cash-sound'
14:02<SteamWilly>?
14:02<SteamWilly>and only them
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14:03<Rubidium>make a newgrf that replaces them?
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14:04<@peter1138>yeah, transport no cargo :D
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14:05<SteamWilly>lol
14:05<@Belugas>they are right, SteamWilly. You cannot disable individual sounds. UNless you do nothing to produce them (transpoet cargo) or you replace them with a newgrf, for quiet sounds or even guitar chords :)
14:05<Tlustoch>Do I have to set pre-signals manualy? In ttdpatch, pre-signals were set automatically.
14:05<SteamWilly>thx for the info
14:08<@peter1138>Tlustoch, yes
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14:10<@peter1138>!logs
14:10<SpComb>Logs: http://spbot.marttila.de:8120/logs/oftc-ottd (old: http://zapotek.paivola.fi/~terom/logs/openttd )
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14:19<Jonah>Hellooooooooo
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14:23<dihedral>good night ladies
14:24[~]dihedral is heading to bed
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14:41<Eddi|zuHause>i remember the "automatic" presignals of ttdpatch were a really ugly feature...
14:42<Eddi|zuHause>but that was like 5 years ago :)
14:42<Eddi|zuHause>i think i was using ttdpatch 1.7 or something
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14:44<@peter1138>oh?
14:45<@peter1138>ah, presignals, not automatic signal completion
14:50|-|HMage [HMage@hmage.dialup.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
14:51<Eddi|zuHause>no, something entirely different :)
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14:54<hylje>http://img.4chan.org/b/src/1183576635485.jpg
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15:04<Eddi|zuHause>your house, your pool, your neighbourhood?
15:05<Eddi|zuHause>(loosely based on a commercial here in germany :p)
15:05<hylje>:3
15:05<hylje>i wish
15:08<hylje>http://img.4chan.org/b/src/1183579683556.jpg
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15:30<prakti>*Ping*
15:31<hylje>pong
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15:35<Sacro>pong
15:41<sHELL>|.
15:41<+glx>.|
15:41<sHELL>|.
15:42<hylje>you both fail it
15:42<sHELL>omg
15:43<sHELL>im downloading insurgency
15:43<sHELL>my bandwith is being raped
15:43<sHELL>can't even listen to my radio
15:46<Tlustoch>What vehicle breakdown option do you use?
15:46<sHELL>me? none
15:48<hylje>on my lil games yes
15:50<Tlustoch>hylje, what breakdown option do you use?
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16:14<ln->greetings from göteborg
16:14<ln->the home town of openttd
16:15<UnderBuilder>WTF the franchise game server is using UKRSI
16:17<sHELL>ln-, hows the weather in finland?
16:18<hylje>göteborg is not quite finland
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16:18<sHELL>ln- is lauri@ksenos.fi * Lauri Nurmi <<< just asuming -_-;
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16:28<UnderBuilder>lol jasper wants to join the franchise game
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16:51<Sacro>@seen smoviou
16:51<@DorpsGek>Sacro: I have not seen smoviou.
16:51<Sacro>@seen Smoovious
16:51<@DorpsGek>Sacro: Smoovious was last seen in #openttd 17 hours, 30 minutes, and 10 seconds ago: <Smoovious> it hasn't been invented yet
16:52<Smoovious>...
16:52<Sacro>indeed :p
16:52<Smoovious>I don't talk much in #tycoon
16:52<Sacro>or here
16:52<Smoovious>I talk more here
16:53<Smoovious>past several days I've been doing support for µT tho... a stable is due out in a few days
16:53<Sacro>ooh, i wonder if it'll stop whinging about my firewall
16:53<stillunknown>Payed support?
16:54<Smoovious>nope
16:57<stillunknown>Why would you support non-free software?
16:57<Smoovious>what's non-free about it?
16:58<Smoovious>nobody has ever charged a penny for it... (not legitimately anyways)
16:58<+glx>the source is not free, but the software is
16:58<stillunknown>Multiple definitions of free exist.
16:59<stillunknown>Usually referred to as "free as in free beer" and "free as in free speech".
16:59<@peter1138>libre
16:59<+glx>libre vs gratuit :)
17:00<Smoovious>well, speech is also free as in free beer
17:01<Eddi|zuHause>as in "the freedom to charge money for it"?
17:02<Eddi|zuHause>or quote from a famous geman movie: "free beer is 5DM"
17:02<stillunknown>Let's be more specific, it does not give you the ability to modify the source code under a certain type of license.
17:02<Smoovious>so?
17:02<Eddi|zuHause>*german
17:02<Smoovious>its ludde's code, he can do with it as he pleases...
17:02<Smoovious>or rather
17:02<Smoovious>it is BTInc's code now
17:03<Eddi|zuHause>i thought he sold it
17:03<Smoovious>so i nstead of shaping how µT was being developed, like b efore, now we're basically trying to keep t he new devs from doing stupid things
17:03<stillunknown>The problems of closed source software ;-)
17:03<Smoovious>we still have input tho... and we're also the dev/alpha testers like before
17:04<Smoovious>I'm not getting into a debate about open/closed source... your bias is pretty clear already... but neither is better thhan t he other... they each have their own unique strengths and weaknesses... and that's as far as I'm going to get drawn into it
17:04<hylje>wait, ludde was behind microtorrent?
17:05<Smoovious>yes... µTorrent was 100% written by ludde
17:05<Smoovious>(well, unless you wanna count the 1 line I contributed :P )
17:05<UnderBuilder>@seen jasperthecat1
17:05<@DorpsGek>UnderBuilder: jasperthecat1 was last seen in #openttd 5 weeks, 3 days, 22 hours, 12 minutes, and 19 seconds ago: <Jasperthecat1> (I'm underbuilder :P)
17:05<UnderBuilder>:O
17:05<Smoovious>in fact, talking to ludde, was how I found out about openttd
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17:08<stillunknown>Is this the reason ludde stopped developing for openttd?
17:08<Smoovious>I don't think so
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17:09<Smoovious>he just got tired and wanted something d ifferent after a while... same thting with him selling µT
17:09<Smoovious>vurlix was with him early on tho (I think it was vurlix... haven't seen him in ages)
17:09<hylje>so hes developing killer app after killer app..
17:09<stillunknown>Except that he apparently promised to open source it once he got tired of utorrent.
17:10<stillunknown>Or something like that.
17:10<Smoovious>what he's doing now is joining with a group working on a music service
17:10<Smoovious>it wasn't a promise...
17:10<Smoovious>it was only a possibility
17:11<Smoovious>we were looking forward to it, but can't fault him for selling it instead... he needed income... and disability assistance only goes so far
17:13<stillunknown>At least he did the right thing for openttd.
17:14<stillunknown>Which i'm glad off.
17:14<stillunknown>*glad for
17:14<Smoovious>well, openttd was i ntended to be open source from t he start
17:14<Smoovious>µT, on thhe other hand, had different goals... like keeping th he code tighht and compact... old school techniques...
17:14<Smoovious>he d idn't intend to sell it when hee started
17:15<Smoovious>the offer just came at the right time when he was looking to move on to something else
17:16<stillunknown>It remains to be seen what happens now.
17:16<Sacro>i thought it was orudge who released the source after ludde had left
17:16<Smoovious>don't blame him either... all of the virtiol from the piracy crowd who thought mistakenly that he owed them something... what a bunch of jerks...
17:17<Smoovious>I don't know about that, Sacro...
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17:17<Smoovious>virtiol=vitriol
17:18<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r10440 /trunk/src/ (economy.cpp newgrf_industries.cpp): -Fix: CBM_IND defines bits to be set, not bitsets.
17:19<Smoovious>brb
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17:22<stillunknown>rubidium: That commit doesn't compile.
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17:22<stillunknown>rubidium: I think the if statement with nothing else is not interpreted correctly.
17:23<Rubidium>grr
17:24<stillunknown>economy.cpp line 1243 btw
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17:25<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r10441 /trunk/src/economy.cpp: -Fix (r10440): something went wrong "porting" fixes from one place to another; like compiling the wrong checkout.
17:25<Smoovious>ib
17:25[~]Sacro reads the source for OpenTTD 0.1
17:26[~]Smoovious grins.
17:26<stillunknown>Sacro: Must be very scary.
17:27<Sacro>actually, its easier
17:27<Smoovious>should try and compile the earliest version off of svn one of these d ays for the hell of it
17:27<Sacro>-r?
17:27<Sacro>well i think this is pre r1
17:27<Smoovious>?
17:27<Eddi|zuHause>ther are versions before r1
17:27<Sacro>!openttd version 1
17:27<Smoovious>naw, I don't need to go back that far
17:27<Eddi|zuHause>Sacro: version != revisions
17:28<Sacro>!openttd reversion 1
17:28<Smoovious>the earliest one on svn is plenty
17:28<Sacro>!openttd revesion 1
17:28<Sacro>><
17:28[~]Sacro slaps self
17:28<Eddi|zuHause>you fail!
17:28<Sacro>!openttd revision 1
17:28<Sacro>@openttd revision 1
17:28[~]Sacro will give up soon
17:28<Eddi|zuHause>!openttd commit 1
17:28<_42_>Commit by truelight :: r1 /trunk/ (200 files in 10 dirs) (2004-08-09 17:04:08 UTC)
17:28<_42_>Import of revision 975 of old (crashed) SVN
17:28<Sacro>THANK YOU
17:29<Eddi|zuHause>i am too grateful :)
17:29<Sacro>well this is 2004-05-06
17:29<stillunknown>Sacro: easier how?
17:29<Sacro>stillunknown: i can't follow the trunk code, it hurts my head
17:30<Eddi|zuHause>stillunknown: current trunk is much more complex
17:30<Eddi|zuHause>ever tried to read through YAPF code?
17:30<Sacro>yes
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17:33<stillunknown>I admit YAPF is complex, too complex for most (including me).
17:33<stillunknown>But the rest seems doable, except gui code which is strange imo.
17:33<Sacro>!logs
17:33<SpComb>Logs: http://spbot.marttila.de:8120/logs/oftc-ottd (old: http://zapotek.paivola.fi/~terom/logs/openttd )
17:33<Sacro>:\
17:34<stillunknown>Although i do get tendencies to rewrite parts i don't understand.
17:35<stillunknown>I must admit i've only seriously dealt with the vehicle movement code.
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17:36<stillunknown>Sacro: The newgrf code is a bit strange to me as well, but that's because i don't know newgrf.
17:36<Sacro>actually, i can follow that
17:37<stillunknown>What are your problem areas? (just curious)
17:37<Smoovious>thighs
17:40<Sacro>errr?...
17:40<Sacro>stillunknown: was trying to dissect the signal code
17:40<stillunknown>I admit not having gone trough that.
17:42<@orudge>Sacro: I have the code for various pre-OpenTTD versions :P
17:42<@orudge>ie, before it was public
17:42<@orudge>the earliest code released to the public was 0.1
17:42<Sacro>orudge: well release them :p
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17:42<@orudge>Nah
17:42<@orudge>For a start, it wasn't licenced under the GPL until 0.1
17:43<@orudge>and I'd want to seek Ludde's permission to do so. So I shall keep it for myself until then. :p
17:46<@orudge>As for how OpenTTD came to be released
17:46<@orudge>Ludde spoke to me sometime over a year before OpenTTD was made public, and told me about the project
17:46<@orudge>it was fairly complete back then
17:46<@orudge>but he worked on it slowly over the rest of the year
17:46<@orudge>he didn't want to release it for legal reasons
17:46<@orudge>but due to nobody being able to get in touch with Atari, and their apparent disregard for TTD
17:47<@orudge>he decided that maybe it'd be possible
17:47<@orudge>so that's what we did
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17:47<@orudge>then Ludde came back when he saw how popular it was
17:47<@orudge>and coordinated the next few releases
17:48<Smoovious>btw... is there still no word from them? (Atari) I know someone had spoken to someone there a couple months ago... .. .
17:49<Sacro>"...Melbourne City Council last night decided against resuming its former policy of paying private investigators to have sex in illegal brothels..."
17:49<@orudge>Various people have tried
17:49<@orudge>nobody's got anything back yet
17:49<stillunknown>What makes me wonder is why ludde didn't structure openttd more from the beginning, like putting all the map accessor's in header files.
17:49<Smoovious>Sacro... gotta hate politicians... they think they're they only ones allowed to nookie on the state's tab
17:50<Sacro>i wonder if i can get it on the nhs...
17:50<Smoovious>maybe he wasn't looking at things that way early on...
17:50<Smoovious>I know my code for myself is sloppy as hell... nothing I'd want anyone else to see... but code I know others will deal with i s a lot neater
17:52<stillunknown>I have trouble reading bad code(poor indenting for example), so i tend to make reasonably code.
17:52<Smoovious>oh I indent. :D
17:53<Smoovious>I just use maybe only a quarter to a third as many lines :)
17:54<Smoovious>and all in the same file
17:55<stillunknown>I have never done a project (except an overgrown script) from scratch.
17:55<Smoovious>in no particular order... new stuff, goes at the bottom
17:55<stillunknown>Except a few algorithms i had to write as "school" assignment.
17:55<Smoovious>it runs... but it isn't pretty... and not user-friendly either
17:56<Smoovious>hate doing UI's... tend to just make commands instead
17:56<stillunknown>I dislike UI code too.
17:58<Smoovious>if I can do something by hitting 2 or 3 keys, works for me
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17:58<Eddi|zuHause>i like point-and-click kind of UI development
17:58<Eddi|zuHause>like in Delphi
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17:59<stillunknown>My first programming language was C, delphi doesn't make much sense on a gnu/linux system.
18:00<Sacro>i started on ASM :(
18:01<stillunknown>I started about 2 years ago, i had the desire to make a small fix, which ended being a modified printf statement.
18:01<stillunknown>Didn't make much sense back then.
18:02<caladan>Sacro: ASM? wow...
18:02<Sacro>caladan: why wow?
18:02<Sacro>trap #11, dc.w 0
18:03<Sacro>caladan: start at the bottom and work up :p
18:03<caladan>asm was my third language
18:03<caladan>people start woth pascal or C, not with asm :D
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18:03<Sacro>i know m68k asm
18:03<Sacro>pic asm
18:03<Sacro>err...
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18:04<Sacro>then i taught myself C, PHP
18:04<Sacro>SQL
18:04<Sacro>bits of C#
18:04<@orudge>caladan: people start with BASIC!
18:04[~]orudge started with Locomotive BASIC 2, on his AMSTRAD 1640
18:04<@orudge>and MS-DOS batch files
18:04<@orudge>moved onto QBASIC when I got a 386 with MS-DOS 6.2
18:04<@orudge>then Visual Basic
18:04<@orudge>started C in 1999
18:04<Sacro>haha, QBasic
18:04<@orudge>and it went on from there.
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18:05<caladan>kk, i thought *.bat dont count :D
18:06<caladan>do you remember clipper?
18:06<@orudge>when they're the most advanced things you know at the time, sure they do ;)
18:06<caladan>that was awesome language :D
18:06<@orudge>also, some batch files can be fairly complex :p
18:06<caladan>i remember, when i was in primary school, someone was deleting my directory over and over again :D
18:06<caladan>then i added some lines to autoexec.bat :D
18:07<caladan>if not exists my_dir deltree /Y C:/Windows :D
18:07<@orudge>how nice of you
18:07<@orudge>:p
18:07<Sacro>hehehee
18:07<Sacro>deltree /Y fte
18:07<Sacro>*ftw
18:08<@orudge>In my day, we didn't have DELTREE
18:08<@orudge>hidden files were hidden, you couldn't see them at all
18:08<caladan>hehe
18:08<Sacro>orudge: you are younger than me, stfu
18:08<@orudge>and floppy disks came in the 360KB variety!
18:08<caladan>i remember that
18:08<Sacro>hahaha
18:08|-|Maedhros [~jc@i-195-137-43-74.freedom2surf.net] has quit [Quit: good night]
18:09[~]stillunknown only learned coding after my windows phase (actually the phase were i lacked my own computer)
18:09<Sacro>lowest we had in 1989 was 740k
18:09<caladan>attirb -h -s filename
18:09<caladan>:D
18:09[~]orudge 's first computer was just about as old as (if not a bit older than) himself
18:09<@peter1138>23:47 < stillunknown> What makes me wonder is why ludde didn't structure openttd more from the beginning, like putting all the map accessor's in header files.
18:09<caladan>i remember as i hid my directiries
18:09<@peter1138>errr cos it didn't *have* map accessors...
18:09<caladan>like alt+225 or something like that
18:10<@orudge>caladan: you couldn't do that in MS-DOS 3.2 :p
18:10<@orudge>You could set the archive and read-only attributes
18:10<caladan>sorry, i dont remember that old dos :D
18:10<@orudge>hidden and system files were truly hidden :p
18:10<Frostregen>oh, batchfiles... anyone want to help? i never could code something: delete all occurences of a given directory name, including all files within them, recursively down a directory tree
18:10<@orudge>I guess you could get at them programmatically
18:10<@orudge>Frostregen: hmm, some sort of FOR command in a recursive batch file
18:11<@orudge>I would guess
18:11<Frostregen>hmm, recursively...i gave the answer myself =)
18:11<Frostregen>o'll try
18:11<Frostregen>i*
18:11<Frostregen>thx
18:12<@orudge>Be careful ;)
18:12<caladan>hehehe
18:12<stillunknown>peter1138: Then i meant to ask, why he didn't make them.
18:13<@orudge>Because, at the time
18:13<@orudge>he was working from a decompilation of TTD, basically
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18:14<@orudge>so certainly, the code wasn't a literal translation
18:14<@orudge>but it probably wasn't all that much abstracted
18:14<caladan>hmmm, what was used to disasseble TTD?
18:14<@orudge>Well
18:15<@orudge>the original versions of OpenTTD had a pile of IDA scripts
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18:15<@orudge>I imagine Marcin's database helped a lot, too
18:15<caladan>Marcin? :>
18:16<caladan>IDA is a great tool, used it maaaany times... but mostly not on x86
18:16<@orudge>Marcin Gryzsomethingorother
18:16<stillunknown>Ludde must have had some desire for code aesthetics, or is that just my flaw for wanting pretty code.
18:16<@orudge>http://marcin.ttdpatch.net/
18:17<caladan>kk, wondered about his name
18:17<caladan>last name is polish
18:18<@orudge>Yes
18:18<@orudge>I just can't quite remember how to spell it :p
18:20<caladan>oh, i imagine, it could be a lot worse :D
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18:29<Eddi|zuHause><caladan> do you remember clipper? <- that was my father's favourite language :)
18:33<Eddi|zuHause>actually, i never have seen him program in any other language
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18:45<Phazorx>!seen maedhros
18:45<_42_>Phazorx, Maedhros (~jc@i-195-137-43-74.freedom2surf.net) was last seen quitting #openttd.notice 36 minutes ago (04.07. 23:08) stating "Quit: good night" after spending 16 hours 57 minutes there.
18:46<Phazorx>OpenTTD: maedhros * r10433 /trunk/src/newgrf.cpp: << is not fixed still
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18:51<Phazorx>hmm... actualy NM i think it is grf issue now
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20:04<lws1984>Hey all
20:04<lws1984>I've got a quick question
20:05<@Belugas>go on
20:06<lws1984>With articulated RV's, can you add one vehicle to be latched onto another, like having 2 tramcars as one vehicle?
20:07<@Belugas>i don't know... i've not tried ARV
20:08<@Belugas>have you tried it?
20:08<lws1984>Well, you can't drag it on
20:08<lws1984>you can't ctrl-build it
20:08<lws1984>nor can you ctrl-drag it
20:09<iPandaMojo>There was a patch on the forums allowing that.
20:09<lws1984>Oh, cool.
20:09[~]lws1984 shall search for it
20:09<lws1984>Thanks
20:10<iPandaMojo>And trunk supports callbacks for articulated vehicles currently. There's an articulated tram grf on the forums somewhere that uses it
20:10<iPandaMojo>But most GRFs don't seem to use it yet (no articulated long vehicles :()
20:10<Phazorx>hiroshima trams are properly articulated
20:10<lws1984>Aye, I've got a teaser UK tram set that uses 'em
20:10<iPandaMojo>Ahh, right, that's there name.
20:10<lws1984>but I want to be able to add together two short trams
20:11<iPandaMojo>The screenshot had road vehicle convoys constructed as 1 unit using the patch
20:11<lws1984>Exactly what I'm looking for
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20:27<iPandaMojo>I finally found the screenshot I was thinking of down on this page (with animated gifs and everything): http://ttd.otenko.com/
20:27<iPandaMojo>The patch was on the page that linked that, which I haven't found >_>
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20:39<lws1984>mmh. that's for TTDPatch, though.
20:46<@Belugas>of course... it's the page of steven, one of the ttdpatch devs :)
20:46<@Belugas>good nigh
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