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#openttd IRC Logs for 2007-07-07

---Logopened Sat Jul 07 00:00:04 2007
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01:42<Chris|Zzz>good morning
01:42<Chris|Zzz>is there a way to gracefully remove a patch without breaking savegame compatibility?
01:42|-|Chris|Zzz changed nick to Chris82
01:43<Rubidium>depends on what the patch initially did
01:44<Rubidium>but it's usually (if not always) technically possible
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01:46<Chris82>I want to remove the signal autocomplete patch from the ChrisIN
01:46<Chris82>I tried to leave the patch setting there and use this MiniIN magic trick, but that doesn't seem to work
01:47<Chris82>oh hmmmm I just compiled a debug version
01:48<Chris82>and it tells me Assertion failed, industry.h line 240 when I load the savegame
01:48<Chris82>industry.h has nothing to do with the signal patch though
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01:50<Rubidium>Chris82: might be caused due to the fact that you removed the patch variable from the savegame incorrectly
01:51<Chris82>hmm I used this SDT_CONDBOOL(Patches, sig_autocomplete, IN_CHRISIN_SINCE(70), IN_CHRISIN_TILL(71), 0, 0, false, STR_NULL, NULL),
01:51<Chris82>and increased savegame version to 72
01:51<Chris82>also I left the bool sig_autocomplete in variables.h
01:52<Chris82>I removed the source for the patch in the rail cpp files tho
01:52<Chris82>and I removed it's listing in the patch GUI
01:54<Rubidium>hmm, that looks ok to me, though you could use SDT_CONDNULL (a bool is 1 byte)
01:55<Chris82>do I need to change the false to something else when I use CONDNULL ?
01:56<Rubidium>well, CONDNULL needs only three parameters IIRC
01:57<Rubidium>SDT_CONDNULL(size, first rev, last rev)
01:58<Chris82>right :) just figured that out
01:58<Chris82>size will be the name of the patch? or what do I put there?
01:59<Rubidium>the size of the variable that used to be there
01:59<Rubidium>in bytes
02:00<Chris82>ok I'll try that
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02:01<Chris82>hmmm nope I still just get this assertion failed error with industry.h line 240
02:02<Chris82>which reads assert(type < INVALID_INDUSTRYTYPE); btw
02:02<Chris82>I did not modify this line tho
02:04<Rubidium>question is: did it work before you try to revert that patch?
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02:06<Chris82>yeah, with the patch in there I could load any version since IN-10351
02:06<Chris82>I wanted to replace it with Peters trunk version tho
02:06<Chris82>it can't be the source I removed from the rail files since it just handled how signals are built
02:07<Chris82>that's nothing that would be stored in a savegame, I am pretty sure
02:09<Rubidium>does it happen without the saveload change?
02:09<Chris82>checking...
02:13<Chris82>yep happens as well (with peters sig complete)
02:13<Chris82>with the old autocomplete it obviously works
02:14<Chris82>I don't really understand it, I thought when I leave the patch setting there and just remove some source it's as if the patch was still there, it's just doing nothing
02:18<Rubidium>did peter's one add a patch option?
02:18<Chris82>no I don't think so
02:19<Chris82>it's just a ctrl "hack"
02:23<@peter1138>hack?! how dare you! ;)
02:24<Chris82>:p oh see who's here hehe
02:25<Chris82>I just try an older revision and remove it there
02:25<Chris82>just to see what happens when I only remove the patch option without replacing any source code
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02:28<Phazorx>Rubidium: what's the condition on closing primary industries now?
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02:34<Rubidium>very low production -> close
02:39<@peter1138>when was that broken? heh
02:39<@peter1138>hmm
02:39<@peter1138>how i do make _name_array allocable?
02:39<@peter1138>pomtepom
02:40<Chris82>ok I made some progress Rubidium :)
02:40<Chris82>I only removed the if conditions for the patch and made it SDT_CONDNULL and increased savegame version
02:40<Chris82>I can still load the savegame now
02:40<Chris82>now I try to update source from r10436 to the latest and see if savegames stay intact
02:41<Chris82>I hope this is once again one of the "do it in the right order and everything goes fine" problems :D
02:44<Gekkko`>Hello my sexies.
02:55<Chris82>the savegame load problem occurs when I update from r10436 to r10439 :(
02:58<Chris82>even tho nothing in saveload, settings, variables etc. is changed in between
02:59<@peter1138>well, 10439 has saveload changes
03:01<Chris82>you mean oldloader.cpp?
03:01<@peter1138>no
03:02<@peter1138>well it does
03:02<Chris82>which change are you refering to?
03:02<@peter1138>industry changes... in 10439... uh...
03:03<Chris82>well I had an assertion error in line 240 of industry.h with a debug version I compiled before
03:04<Chris82>I don't know how that would affect my IN tho ?!?
03:04<Chris82>I haven't changed anything with the industries
03:06<Chris82>let me verify it's really r10439 that's causing the problem and not 37 or 38 already
03:06<Chris82>brb
03:09<Noldo>btw. why is there custom array and fixedsize array when stdlib has so many nice containers
03:09<Rubidium>because C doesn't know stdlib?
03:10<Rubidium>and because asm doesn't know stdlib either
03:10<Noldo>they are writen in c++
03:10<Noldo>using templates
03:11<Chris82>yep r10439 breaks the whole IN, but I don't understand which patch these changes could possibly affect
03:11<Rubidium>Noldo: as if *everything* magically starts using std when converting from asm -> c -> c compiled with c++ -> c++
03:11<Rubidium>someone has to refactor the code before it actually starts using stl stuff
03:12<Noldo>Rubidium: someone yes, but it's not neede in openttd codebase
03:13<Rubidium>then why are you asking why those arrays aren't using stl?
03:14<Noldo>Why doesn't openttd use stdlib containers instead of custom made ones?
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03:14<Rubidium>because asm and C didn't have the stdlib containers
03:15<Noldo>Why doesn't openttd use stdlib containers instead of custom made ones made in c++?
03:16<Rubidium>because we were C till a few months ago and nobody refactored everything... remember, most of the code is C compiled as C++
03:16<Noldo>Why doesn't openttd use stdlib containers instead of custom made ones made in c++ that use templates so that they can't be used from C code?
03:17<Rubidium>BECAUSE WE DIDN
03:17<Smoovious>why use standard containers instead of custom ones? generally speaking, custom-to-the-need is better than off-the-shelf...
03:17<Rubidium>BECAUSE WE DIDN'T CONVERT ALL C CODE TO C++ YET!!!!
03:17<Noldo>Rubidium: it's not that
03:18<Rubidium>oh, by the way, we use stl in some places
03:19<Noldo>Rubidium: and for that I'm very happy
03:19<Chris82>hmmm in industry_cmd.cpp there was an SLE_CONDARR added for incoming cargo and one SLE_ARR for produced cargo
03:19<Chris82>this change breaks savegames compatibility within the ChrisIN branch
03:19<Smoovious>what's so great about generic containers?
03:20<Chris82>can I make the second a CONDARR too?
03:20<Rubidium>Smoovious: not reinventing the wheel
03:20<caladan>Just everybody knows how to use them
03:20<Noldo>and the real answer to the question is "Because KUDr wrote yapf to be compilable with 2.95 g++, while now some of the code already needs later version"
03:20<Smoovious>...
03:21<Rubidium>it's still g++ 2.95 compilable IIRC
03:21<Noldo>2.95 doesn't have c++ stdlib
03:21<Chris82>don't discuss such silly stuff :P help me instead :D
03:23<Rubidium>Chris82: there were savegame changes in that commit, but no savegame bump; the savegame changes that were made in that commit take only effect *after* then next savegame bump is done, which is perfectly fine because saving of those variables is not needed yet
03:23<Rubidium>but because the ChrisIN already has done the savegame bump it's getting messy in there.
03:23<Chris82>hmmm but I don't get why I can't load any savegame anymore with the IN when these changes are added
03:24<Chris82>I can't even load trunk anymore
03:24<Rubidium>the easiest way is to remove the added line *but* you'll need to readd it when trunk bumps it's savegame version
03:24<Chris82>hmmm ok that's an idea :) I didn't know that these variables were not really used yet
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03:27<Chris82>ok I will simply keep the r10438 versions of these files for now then and just update everything else to r10454, these 5 files from your commit aren't modified in any way by the IN anyway so it won't be a problem updating them later
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03:32<@peter1138>fun
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03:38<Wolf01>hello
03:40<Rubidium>Chris82: removing the added CONDARR array, not the complete diff
03:42<Chris82>kk
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03:49<KUDr><Noldo> btw. why is there custom array and fixedsize array when stdlib has so many nice containers << because stl containers are too slow for yapf
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03:51<Noldo>oh great
03:52<Noldo>Rubidium: I'm sorry about the argument we had. I haven't been my self lately.
03:52<Noldo>KUDr: tell me more when I get back from the supermarket
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03:53<KUDr>more?
03:53<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r10460 /trunk/src/ (5 files): -Codechange: add some more variables needed for newindustries regarding to the creation of the industries.
03:56<Smoovious>be afraid...
03:56<@peter1138>BE VERY AFRAID
03:56<@peter1138>(why?)
03:56<Smoovious>KUDr has to try to come up with more to tell Noldo
03:57<KUDr>Noldo is our ne ottd CEO? or what?
03:57<KUDr>+w
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04:13<@peter1138>seems to be assuming the switch from C to C++ involved refactoring everything in one go...
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04:21<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r10461 /branches/noai/ (187 files in 18 dirs): [NoAI] -Sync with trunk r10349:r10460.
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04:25<Smoovious>seems to be
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04:27<Smoovious>just for laughs, and make cross-platform compatability easier, why don't we convert it to Java? :D >ducks<
04:29<KUDr>it is not doable step-by-step
04:29<Smoovious>it was a joke
04:30<Smoovious>I sure as hell wouldn't wanna play it in Java
04:30<KUDr>why? Java is fine. Small maps would run ok there
04:31<Smoovious>16x16 maybe
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04:32<KUDr>no, i am working on sigsim in java and map 256x256 renders fine (same coord system and transforms as in ottd)
04:32<Rubidium>Smoovious: don't underestimate the power of a JIT compiler
04:32<Smoovious>ick
04:32<KUDr>also map scroll is fast enough
04:32<Smoovious>sigsim?
04:32<KUDr>yes
04:33<KUDr>sigsim
04:33<Rubidium>ok, awt/swing aren't that fast, but that isn't used most of the time
04:33<Smoovious>(that was a hint to elaborate)
04:33<KUDr>you can render into images and lay them on top of each other and then it is fast
04:34<Smoovious>so sigsim is a graphics editor?
04:34<KUDr>gui for signal simulator
04:34<Smoovious>ok...
04:35<KUDr>where you can simulate map, tracks, signals, and run trains and watch for srashes
04:35<KUDr>-s+c
04:35<Smoovious>coolies
04:37<KUDr>i do it only because i need to learn more about Java & Swing (for work)
04:38<KUDr>but it give surprisingly good results
04:38<KUDr>+s
04:38<Smoovious>well, the majority of my comparisons had to do with µT and Az
04:38<KUDr>i dunno them
04:39<Smoovious>torrent clients
04:39<KUDr>aha
04:39<KUDr>depends on how you write
04:39<KUDr>it is much easier to write slow program in Java than in C
04:39<KUDr>and harder to get it fast
04:40<Smoovious>yeah... but with C you don't bring your system to its knees just loading a runtime environ
04:40<KUDr>bu i saw also examples where Java was faster
04:40<Noldo>KUDr: more as in, what did the stdlib do wrong
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04:41<KUDr>Noldo: stl doesn't have suitable container - fast filling, growing ability, persistent iterators (no relocations)
04:41<KUDr>so list was slow, vector was slow, etc
04:42<KUDr>i needed to keep pointers to items stored there, so vector ws unusable
04:42<KUDr>list uses lot of allocations so it is slow and fragments memory
04:43<KUDr>and contains links that i don't need
04:43<KUDr>i needed something like memory pool
04:43<Noldo>I see
04:43<KUDr>and the old mempool was in C and terribly slow
04:44<KUDr>you should understand that stl is good to be used when it gives us benefits but there were no benefits
04:44<KUDr>and similar it is with blob
04:44<KUDr>and CStrA now
04:44<Noldo>yes I should, some how it never seems to sink in ;)
04:45<KUDr>stl doesn't have similar things (from performance POV)
04:50<Noldo>where are the blobs used?
04:51<KUDr>search for occurrences
04:51<KUDr>now also for CStrA
04:51<KUDr>which is inherited from it
04:52<Noldo>yes it seems to have a very baseclass feel to it
04:53<KUDr>yes it is made to be as simple as possible
04:54<KUDr>but still suitable for use as return value from a functions (without need to copy buffer as stl strinf does in this case)
04:54<KUDr>and sizeof(blor or CStrA) == sizeof(void*)
04:54<KUDr>-r+b
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05:06<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r10462 /trunk/src/ (5 files in 2 dirs):
05:06<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Add: a command dumper/loader that could be enabled compile-time and server side
05:06<CIA-1>OpenTTD: only to aid debugging some desyncs, i.e. dump the stream of commands so it could
05:06<CIA-1>OpenTTD: be replayed in exactly the same way later. This should primarily be used to make
05:06<CIA-1>OpenTTD: desyncs more easily reproducable, so it can be properly debugged.
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05:12<ln->greetings from helsinki-vantaa airport
05:16<hylje>:o
05:17<Noldo>KUDr: what about hashtable, is there anything special about that besides using blobs
05:18<KUDr>special in what manner?
05:20<Noldo>I would guess that it too is designed to be fst
05:20<Noldo>+a
05:20<KUDr>yes
05:21<KUDr>but here i had no choice
05:21<KUDr>stl doesn't have such thing
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06:44<Tlustoch>Is it possible to build pre-signals automatically? In ttdpatch pre-signals are added automatically.
06:44<@peter1138>no, manual only
06:44<Tlustoch>:(
06:45<Tlustoch>That's lot of extra work
06:47<Tlustoch>You should allow building in pause so one would have time to do it :-)
06:48<hylje>we have no time limit
06:48<hylje>or yes, but its around 5 million years
06:49<Tlustoch>I thought that the game ends in some year.
06:49<Tlustoch>And the score is recorded.
06:50<hylje>you can continue from that
06:50<Smoovious>building in pause is in the cheat menu, for single-player only
06:51<hylje>http://www.funnysign.com/funnysign_098.htm
06:53<Gekkko`>lol helb
06:53<Gekkko`>hylje*
06:53<Gekkko`>sorry helb
06:55<Tlustoch>Btw do you have some save of advanced game?
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06:58<Chris82>hi guys :)
06:58<Gekkko`>hey Chris82
06:58<Gekkko`>is the Fund New Town patch still in ChrisIN?
06:58<Chris82>Rubidium: I found the perfect solution for the savegame problem now :) I just made the stuff you added IN_CHRISIN_SINCE(72), SL_MAX_VERSION), instead of 70, SL_MAX_VERSION...
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06:59<Chris82>I don't know yet what'll happen when trunk is 70 but I'll figure that out when time has come :p
06:59<Gekko>Chris82: Fund New Town patch still in ChrisIN?
07:00<Chris82>sure why?
07:00<Chris82>I just removed autosignals and added two new so far
07:00<Chris82>I probably post a new build today or tomorrow
07:00<Gekko>im dizzy
07:01<Gekko>just span around on my computer chair
07:01<Gekko>i feel sick lol
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07:49<stillunknown>Chris82: trunk is at 70
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07:57<Rubidium>stillunknown: it iss?
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08:02<@peter1138>for the new definition of 'at 70'
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08:21<skidd13>How many sprites are in the flags.grf?
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08:45<skidd13>I rewrote the nand signal patch, but something is wrong :( . Can someone chech my patch.. IMO it is something with the map array...
08:48<skidd13>Anybody outa there?
08:50<Chris82>stillunknown: Trunk is at 69 afaik, but this new patch that was prepared will be 70 and with trunk these conditions aren't checked, but since ChrisIN is at 72 they were checked
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09:00<stillunknown>Belugas:
09:00<stillunknown>if (CheckSavegameVersion(70)) {
09:00<stillunknown>But revision is at 69
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09:00<stillunknown>It's newindustries related so i'm guessing that's you.
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09:02<Chris82>does anybody know who made the Mail Subsidy Patch? I don't remember who wrote it
09:02<Smoovious><--
09:03<Smoovious>but with the changes being made to industries and economy lately, I don't know if they'll conflict or not... was going to wait and see what direction it goes
09:04<Smoovious>didja have a problem?
09:04<Chris82>no I just intended to add it to ChrisIN
09:04<Chris82>I have figured out now how to remove a patch, so if it goes into trunk or something similar is introduced with new industries it shouldn't cause problems
09:04<Smoovious>oh ok... lemme know if it gets uppity... I'll whip it back into submission
09:05<Chris82>all it will do is offer mail subsidies right?
09:05<Smoovious>well, there was some re-organizing done, but essentially, yeah
09:05<Smoovious>no savegame issues
09:06<stillunknown>The concept of maglev engines is so screwed up.
09:06<Smoovious>unless there was a change in trunk directly related to town subsidies tho, should be ok
09:06<Smoovious>yeah... maglevs have motors
09:07<Smoovious>ya can't really buy track to build a train t ho
09:07<stillunknown>I'm considering this kind of beheaviour for maglev:
09:07<Chris82>well just use DB Set XL :p
09:08<stillunknown>Maglev can go up hills fine, but are length limited.
09:08<Chris82>the Vanilla TTD trains are screwed up anyway
09:08<stillunknown>So let the number of engines be irrelevant.
09:08<stillunknown>Assume track is adapted to region.
09:09<stillunknown>Fixed acceleration up to a certain train length (10 wagons), then max out due to power requirements.
09:09<stillunknown>The transrapid for instance (on flat terrain) has a tractive effort of 90 kN. Maximum length of 10 cars.
09:10<stillunknown>And since gradients up to 10% are possible it should be hardly be hindered by 3%.
09:13<Chris82>Smoovious: Very nice patches :) I like that patches that add some good functionality without requiring a patch option hehe
09:13<Chris82>saves a lot of savegame hazzle
09:13<Chris82>when I am done testing it I will make a fix inflation patch
09:13<Chris82>it's way too high late in the game
09:14<Chris82>and after that regional taxes :D
09:15<Smoovious>well, that subsidies one was more about bringing something back that got lost... my original version included some customization to it too, but I started it over... gonna hold off on the original plan until the new industry stuff is done being worked out
09:15<Smoovious><Chris82> it's way too high late in the game <--- sounds prototypical to me. :P
09:15<Chris82>good idea :)
09:16<Chris82>well I have a game that's in 2318 and demolishing one house costs a few hundread billion
09:16<Smoovious>yeah, that sounds about right
09:16<Chris82>that's nowhere near real life inflation, although we can never know how many world wars happen until 2318 so the assumption might be wrong :D
09:17<Smoovious>well, inflation is cumulative...
09:17<stillunknown>Maybe a reevaluation of currency is needed every 100 years.
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09:18<Smoovious>just look at how yen amounts were years ago before they re-valued it...
09:18<Smoovious>way too many zeroes
09:21<Chris82>well assuming inflation is 2% and in 2000 you pay 1 million for demolishing a house then you should pay 380 million in 2300
09:21<Chris82>but in the game it's more like in 2000 you pay 100k and in 2300 you pay 1 billion
09:22[~]Smoovious shrugs.
09:22<Chris82>assuming an inflation of more than 2% on average for the next 300 years is exaggerated if you don't bet on a few world wars
09:22<Smoovious>some areas of inflation out-pace others. :)
09:22<Chris82>immovables? :p
09:25<Chris82>I just try to figure out how high inflation actually is in the game
09:25<Chris82>Approximation for (100 + infl_amount)% ** (1 / 12) - 100%
09:25<Chris82>I wonder what value infl_amount has tho
09:28<Noldo>is inflation even relevant for most of the game?
09:29<Smoovious>ya
09:30<Smoovious>or your income would never match expenditures
09:30<Chris82>if inflation is turned it's very relevant yeah
09:30<Chris82>even when you only play 50 years
09:34<Chris82>static void AddInflation() < I don't really get what is done by this function
09:34<Chris82>I mean what it does is clear, but not the how and what all the values mean
09:36<Tefad>infl_amount looks like it's per 12months
09:36<Noldo>does it effect both income and costs?
09:36<Tefad>heee i'm so useful.
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09:36<Tefad>my guess ist hat addinflation tweaks some globals
09:37<Chris82>_economy.interest_rate = _opt.diff.initial_interest;
09:37<Chris82> _economy.infl_amount = _opt.diff.initial_interest;
09:37<Chris82>do I assume it correctly that inflation amount is controlled by the interest rate set in difficulty?
09:38<Rubidium>stillunknown: it was me who added the if (CheckSavegameVersion(70)) {
09:39<Tefad>maybe
09:39<Rubidium>and the savegame bump isn't needed because we don't care if you get the wrong founder for the next few hundred trunk revisions and it's certain there will be a savegame bump before newindustries (finally) hits trunk, so I don't see a problem
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09:45<Chris82>hmmm one good thing I just found out already is that daylength patch has no influence on yearly inflation
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09:49<Chris82>hmmm with interest rate at 4% inflation is 2,9% in the first year and 4,2% in the second year
09:50<Tefad>i'm going to assume the base unit of money doesn't inflate
09:50<Tefad>i could be wrong
09:51<Chris82>I don't really get how this is calculated I observered 10 years with an interest of 2% and 4% now
09:51<Chris82>with 2% inflation is 1,5%-2,5%
09:51<Chris82>2% interest rate I mean
09:52<Tefad>why are you using non-english number marks
09:52<Chris82>with 4% inflation is 3% to 5%
09:52<Chris82>what?
09:52<Tefad>makes since to me
09:52<Tefad>, is not english decimal place
09:52<Chris82>ah ok :p
09:52<Chris82>well that doesn't make sense at all to me
09:53<Tefad>well 4 is 2x 2%
09:53<Chris82>since when does interest rate influence inflation
09:53<Tefad>so 3% and 5% are both 2x 1.5 and 2.5
09:53<Tefad>i see
09:53<Chris82>ah that's what you mean with makes sense
09:53<Tefad>and i see what you mean by not making sense : D
09:53<Chris82>yeah I figured out how inflation is calculated now, but based on what I see it's way too high
09:54<Tefad>it appears to be based on interest rate
09:55<Chris82>hmmm I think I am too young
09:56<Chris82>when I look at history for the time span from 1920-1970 such an inflation is actually pretty realistic, if not too low
09:56<Chris82>it's only been the last two decades that inflation was so low
09:56<Tefad>low inflation is kind of a good thing
09:56<Tefad>and remember this game is a over a decade old
09:57<Chris82>yeah, but I had the wrong assumption that the inflation we had the last 20 years was there the time before too, but in the 70s inflation was partially well over 10%
09:57<Chris82>yeah so at the time of programming this was even a low value for inflation
09:58<Chris82>result... I will try to make a patch with higher inflation in the beginning and low inflation after 2000
09:58<Chris82>I assume not many people pay long past 2050, but for those who do numbers just get way too big
09:59<Tefad>look at other currency's histories
09:59<Chris82>http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bild:PreisindizesUSAJBRD.PNG I was looking at this graphic
09:59<Tefad>some went as high as being less than the value of the paper the older (smaller denomination) bills were printed upon
10:00<Tefad>people using that currency found it cheaper to insulate buildings with money rather than buy insulation
10:00<Tefad>: D
10:00<Tefad>in the US, the one cent (penny) was changed from copper to zinc with copper plating, due to the value of the copper in a penny exceeding $0.01
10:01<Chris82>I just figure Japan actually had deflation this century
10:01<Chris82>good thing when you have money on your bank account and it's loosing worth :D
10:01<Tefad>eh deflating means your money gains value
10:02<Tefad>your money is stronger
10:02<Chris82>I know but I've learned it's bad for economy
10:02<Chris82>I don't know why
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10:02<Tefad>well people get paid less as a result i'm guessing
10:02<Smoovious>cuz people aren't willing to get paid less to compensate
10:02<Tefad>and don't want to spend as much
10:02<Smoovious>even tho they're really getting more
10:03<Tefad>right
10:03<Smoovious>so inflation is permanent
10:03<Smoovious>with t he occasionala burp here and there
10:03<Tefad>or 0%
10:03<Smoovious>nah... never 0%... we got unions...
10:03<Chris82>http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bild:PreisindizesUSAJBRD.PNG < do you find a graphic older than this?
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10:03<Chris82>I am sure inflation/deflation has been measured at world war times as well
10:04<Chris82>must be crazy high values for DM
10:04<Tefad>what's the currency code for DM? .. DM?
10:04<Chris82>uhm DEM ?
10:05<Noldo>it seems deflation as such is just a symptom
10:06<Chris82>well deflation only occurs in short intervals and also only in "closed" areas of economy such as valuables (immovables etc.), or wages
10:06<Noldo>it happens when the demand for money goes down and that only happens when companies stop investing
10:06<Tefad>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zimbabwean_dollar HOLY CRAP
10:06<Chris82>4530% ?
10:06<Chris82>nice
10:07<Tefad>On June 21, 2007 the American ambassador to Zimbabwe, Christopher Dell, told the Guardian newspaper that inflation could reach 1.5 million per cent (1,500,000%) by the end of the year. The current unofficial inflation rate is above 11,000%, and the black-market exchange rate is Z$400,000 to the pound.
10:07<Sacro>i'm sure this isn't honey oat bread
10:07<Chris82>if that currency was a stock I'd short it big time :D
10:07<Tefad>heh
10:09<Chris82>hmmm so maybe I could even make a patch that has different inflation for all currencies
10:09<Chris82>so choosing the currency actually has a real effect on games
10:09<Tefad>ehh
10:10<Chris82>I mean right now inflation is the same for all currencies, they have a fixed exchange rate
10:10<Tefad>maybe you could have a "realistic" inflation patch that would reflect the actual currency through out its time period?
10:10<Tefad>in multiplayer games, this patch could not be used
10:10<Tefad>or has to match the server eh?
10:13<Noldo>hmm
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10:13<Noldo>I don't think that direction would give anything valuable to the gameplay
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10:15<Chris82>well it would definitely be a realistic inflation patch and not replace the current situation
10:16<Chris82>I primarily intend to try out new stuff with patches not get my stuff in trunk forceably :D
10:17<Noldo>now the currency setting is just about the presentation of money
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10:18<Noldo>that kind of historic inlfation would make it a gameplay setting
10:18<Tefad>when to save money and when to invest in capital eh?
10:18<Tefad>or when it's worth it to save money
10:18<Tefad>or cheapest to payoff loans
10:18<Tefad>etc
10:19<Noldo>and also the selected currency would tie the game world to certain historic economies
10:19<Tefad>interest rate could be done to reflect real values too
10:20<Chris82>hmmm actually when I consider it this would be more fun when it's more like random and not like real currencies developed
10:20<Chris82>otherwise you would know in advance when to save and when to invest
10:21<Chris82>with random events you would need to handle your money more with care
10:21<Chris82>there could be pre-signs like a news message stock exchange crash or something like that
10:22<Noldo>let's build an economy simulator! \o/
10:23<Tlustoch>I have started a game with total town replacement set and the cities generate unnaturally lot of people. Is it normal?
10:23<Chris82>TTRS only replaces building graphics iirc
10:24<Chris82>maybe your patch setting city growth is on fast?
10:24<Tlustoch>No.
10:24<Chris82>oh sorry I misunderstood you I think
10:24<Chris82>you mean buildings generate more people than they usually do right?
10:25<Tlustoch>I dont know. I just have over 1000 people at station.
10:25<Tlustoch>I never had that in the begining of the game
10:25<Tlustoch>I also started the game in 1927. Maybe this could be problem?
10:26<Chris82>no
10:26<Rubidium>once a town starts expanding a little the amount of "commercial" buildings in/near the center rises
10:26<Chris82>but in the beginning there are small towns and they grow to big cities
10:26<Chris82>and big cities generate a lot more people
10:26<Rubidium>the amount of passengers generated by "commercial" buildings is much larger than that amount of passengers generated by houses
10:27<Chris82>maybe TTRS generates more commercial buildings than normal OTTD
10:27<Chris82>I have no comparison since I always play with TTRS :)
10:27<Tlustoch>I play 1024x1024 map and I have cities with around 2,500 in the beginning. But that's still no reason to generate over 1500 to the station.
10:28<Chris82>depends, if you build a bus station in the city center and only send one bus there with a long travel distance there can easily wait that many people in a 2,5k city
10:28<Rubidium>passengers accumulate over time, so if you don't transport enough people they stockpile
10:28<Rubidium>they are removed too, but apparantly the rating of the station is still too high to get it down quickly
10:29<Chris82>I think passengers start to dissapear only short before a 0 rating
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10:32<Chris82>I have a problem with TortoiseSVN
10:33<Chris82>when I create a patch file from some of the language files all special characters are converted to a black box breaking the .diff file
10:33<Chris82>is there an alternative to Tortoise?
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10:33<Rubidium>command line svn
10:33<sartsj>hello
10:34<sartsj>does anyone know if it is possible to run openttd in dedicated mode under linux without an x window installed?
10:35[~]Sacro knows
10:35<Sacro>sartsj: -D?
10:35<sartsj>ya
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10:35<sartsj>from the console
10:35<Sacro>sartsj: openttd -d
10:35<Sacro>no, -D
10:35<sartsj>well i know the parameter, i was just wondering if it is possible to run it at all without x window
10:36<Rubidium>sartsj: did you compile OTTD yourself or did you take some binary from somewhere?
10:36<sartsj>i was trying to compile it myself, but i think it needs x windows when you compile it?
10:36<Rubidium>because you can compile OTTD without any libraries that need X
10:36<sartsj>hm
10:36<Rubidium>what version of OTTD? 0.5.something I presume
10:36<sartsj>yea 0.5.2
10:37<sartsj>i received an error from libSDL
10:37<Rubidium>open Makefile.config, search for DEDICATED and set that to 1
10:37<sartsj>/usr/lib/gcc-lib/i486-slackware-linux/3.3.4/../../../../i486-slackware-linux/bin/ld: warning: libX11.so.6, needed by /usr/lib/libSDL.so, not found (try using -rpath or -rpath-link)
10:37<sartsj>/usr/lib/gcc-lib/i486-slackware-linux/3.3.4/../../../../i486-slackware-linux/bin/ld: warning: libXext.so.6, needed by /usr/lib/libSDL.so, not found (try using -rpath or -rpath-link)
10:37<sartsj>ahhh
10:37<sartsj>thank you
10:37<Sacro>make DEDICATED=1
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10:50<thomas001>hi, i've a little ingame question: i have a railway with one track per direction, but it gets overfull,too many trains,a breakdown stops sometimes 5 trains and slower trains also slow the fast ones down. is there a standard way to build a high traffic railway? i sometimes build 2 tracks per direction for those situations and interweave those both tracks,but i'm pretty sure i don't to it optimally.
10:55<sartsj>i think i've seen examples of a 2-track railway somewhere
10:55<sartsj>forgot where :/
10:55<sartsj>have you tried http://www.transporttycoon.net/ ?
10:55<thomas001>hmm no,i'll have a look,thx
10:56<sartsj>ahh
10:56<sartsj>found it
10:56<sartsj>http://wiki.openttd.org/index.php/Double-Tracks
10:59<thomas001>hmm why has the overtaking track a small strait section and does not go directly onto the other track?
11:00<thomas001>i used to leave that out :-/
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11:00<stillunknown>thomas001: because you block two lines when switching
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11:01<thomas001>ah
11:01<thomas001>thx :)
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11:06<thomas001>hmm why are those exit signals two-sided? first i thought its some kind of priority,but it doesn't seem to be one?
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11:12<stillunknown>thomas001: it prevents switches from track if the track is full
11:13<stillunknown>Otherwise you block a mainline.
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11:16<thomas001>hmm i think about that while jogging,thx
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11:39<Chris82>hi there, is it right that I can't start latest trunk without a sound card anymore?
11:39<Chris82>my server doesn't have a sound card obviously and I get a can't find suitable sound driver error
11:41<Noldo>check the command line arguments
11:41<Noldo>you might be able to set the sound driver to null or something like that
11:43<CIA-1>OpenTTD: miham * r10463 /trunk/src/lang/ (7 files): (log message trimmed)
11:43<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update: WebTranslator2 update to 2007-07-07 18:42:35
11:43<CIA-1>OpenTTD: catalan - 4 fixed by arnaullv (4)
11:43<CIA-1>OpenTTD: estonian - 15 fixed by kristjans (15)
11:43<CIA-1>OpenTTD: japanese - 4 fixed by ickoonite (4)
11:43<CIA-1>OpenTTD: piglatin - 28 fixed by adammw (23), miham (5)
11:43<CIA-1>OpenTTD: romanian - 7 fixed by kneekoo (7)
11:44<CIA-1>OpenTTD: miham * r10464 /trunk/src/lang/unfinished/latvian.txt:
11:44<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update: WebTranslator2 update to 2007-07-07 18:44:01
11:44<CIA-1>OpenTTD: latvian - 293 fixed, 21 changed by amjaliks (254), pakalns (60)
11:45<Progman>Chris82: openttd -s null
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12:01<@peter1138>hmm
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12:11<Phazorx>hmm.. if a station order is timetabled and fullload
12:11<Phazorx>is it gonna be trigegred by whatever happens 1st?
12:11<Rubidium>it only leaves when all preconditions for leaving are met
12:14<Phazorx>hmm... that's not good
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12:14<Phazorx>OR would be more usefull than AND
12:15<Phazorx>and btw - gradual loading is not supposed to affect trams?
12:15<Rubidium>it does; trams are no different than trains, ships or whatever other vehicle in the loading/unloading algorithms
12:16<Phazorx>Rubidium: could it be set problem then?
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12:16<Phazorx>i see serbina trains laod instantly
12:16<Phazorx>all 60+ pax
12:17<Rubidium>could be
12:17<Phazorx>and as a requst - it would be nice to have either triggerable OR if not just OR as default for full load/wait time
12:18<Phazorx>cuz using vehicles as colelctor from multiple points would benefit from it
12:18<Rubidium>well, full load is useless in that case
12:18<Phazorx>but think about - there is no point of keeping to schedule if vehicles is full already
12:18<Rubidium>Phazorx: but then it has to wait at the unloading station
12:19<Phazorx>why would it wait there ?
12:19<Phazorx>if i only schedule loading part
12:19<Phazorx>the setup i'm applying that to is ships polling oil rigs
12:19<Phazorx>they are instructed to wait certain amount of time proportional to output of each rig
12:20<Rubidium>but in that case if the oil rig has an enormous amount of oil and you didn't specify enough time, it'll just go when it can still load
12:20<Phazorx>however sometimes they get full even before that - and waiting extra days on next rig where they can nto laod anything is quite pointless
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12:21<Phazorx>oh no, say ot takes 30 days to laod whole thing - then i'd have 40 days of loadining scheduled at different points
12:21<Phazorx>so assuming there is enough oil - it will take all it can
12:21<Phazorx>however "all it can" can be reached before end of route due to timing with other vehivles
12:22|-|Chris82 [~chris@p579E1BB7.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit []
12:22<Rubidium>I really do not see any benefit of letting ships wait (long) in this scenario
12:22<Rubidium>just let them go from oil rigs to oil rigs and let them load all they can and then let them continue
12:23<Phazorx>it'd better for getting rating higher to keep ships at rigs for a while
12:23<Phazorx>preferably - one ship waits at each rig and takes cargo at any point of time
12:23<Phazorx>but that is unreachable goal
12:24<Phazorx>so i time it in a way so ships "poll" each rig for certain time and then go to base
12:24[~]Rubidium wonders why a waiting ship is soo much better
12:24<Phazorx>Rubidium: waiting full is useless waiting and loading means there is no stockpile at station
12:24<Phazorx>hence raiting goes up
12:25<Rubidium>yes, but waiting for nothing with cargo aging in your ship is even worse
12:25<Phazorx>considering ship traveltime which in that case is 3x load time
12:25<Phazorx>it can be cared les about
12:26<Phazorx>perhaps i should go back to dedicated ships per rigs
12:26<Rubidium>still
12:26<Rubidium>there are much people that use the AND variant and do not need the OR variant and making both of them available isn't really a good idea imo
12:26<Phazorx>so u'd recommend no time table, nothing 0 just take all you can and move on?
12:27<Phazorx>well AND means there is not much sense in timetable, they just wait for full load then?
12:28<Rubidium>full load and timetable shouldn't be used at the same time
12:28<Rubidium>but that's something completely different
12:28<Phazorx>well.. it is pointless with AND scenario.. it could be usefull with OR
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12:29<Phazorx>ona s side not - is it possible just to have same mechanizm measurung ships travel/wait time averages and presenting in info?
12:29<Rubidium>*if* the ship is full, it should go straight to the unloading place, not go to twenty other pickup points
12:29<Phazorx>since information is collecetd already
12:30<Phazorx>Rubidium: that would be even nicer, but i bet harder to do
12:30<Phazorx>skip-if-full functionality makes sense to me
12:30<Rubidium>still, I'm not into the order handling stuff, and I don't really care about that at the moment either
12:31<Phazorx>oki :)
12:33<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r10465 /trunk/src/window.cpp: -Fix: first run the WE_CREATE callback and then perform the dirtying of the window, so you won't get glitches if you resize a window in the WE_CREATE callback.
12:36<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r10466 /trunk/src/newgrf_industries.cpp: -Fix: the minimum amount of waiting cargo shouldn't be 65535; that should be the maximum amount of waiting cargo.
12:37<Sacro>7 / 3 = 2
12:37<Sacro>7.0 / 3.0 = 4
12:37<Progman>now a station can have >4095 amount of cargos?
12:37<Sacro>something seems wrong
12:37<Sacro>Progman: no
12:37<Rubidium>Progman: yes
12:37<Sacro>:(
12:38<Sacro>oh yes... < 65535
12:38<@peter1138>heh, someone confused min/max again :)
12:39<stillunknown>Luckily newgrf_industries is unused ;-)
12:41<Rubidium>Progman: you could already before that commit as the station had nothing to do with it
12:42<Progman>it doesn't?
12:42<Progman>the industry see that there were already 4095 tons and dont load there anymore?
12:43<@peter1138>what?
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12:49<alex_>hi guys
12:50<alex_>anyone running openttd on debian?
12:50<alex_>im having a couple of troubles compoiling
12:51<Noldo>please share, there is a pastething in the topic if you need it
12:51<Rubidium>apt-get install libsdl-dev zlib1g-dev g++ libpng12-dev libfontcache-dev libfreetype2-dev
12:51<Noldo>or is there?
12:51<Rubidium>?
12:51<@peter1138>that should do it
12:51<Noldo>no there isn't
12:51<Rubidium>I wonder whether that are the correct package names though
12:52<Rubidium>s/cache/config1/
12:52<alex_>Rubidium: im running etch
12:52<alex_>that a problem?
12:52<Rubidium>shouldn't be a problem
12:52<Noldo>no
12:52<@peter1138>libsdl1.2-dev i think
12:52<alex_>E: Couldn't find package libfontcache-dev
12:53<alex_>:)
12:53<@peter1138>that, along with g++, is the most important
12:53<Rubidium>it should've been libfontconfig1-dev
12:53<alex_>ah. ok
12:53<alex_>1min
12:53<alex_>im going to be throwing up around 10 dedicated servers
12:53<alex_>i absolutley love openttd
12:53|-|lolman_ [~John@cpc3-leds2-0-0-cust55.leed.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
12:53<alex_>been playing it ttd since the ole days
12:54<alex_>:)
12:55<stillunknown>alex_: I sure hope you don't intend to run all of those servers on a single computer?
12:55<alex_>stillunknown: of course not :)
12:55<alex_>i have a few machines in my rack doing nothing
12:55<alex_>and some at home doing nothing
12:55<alex_>so ill put em to some use
12:56<alex_>:)
12:56<alex_>E: Couldn't find package libfreetype2-dev
12:56<alex_>debian:/home/user# apt-cache search freetype2
12:56<alex_>freetype2-demos - FreeType 2 demonstration programs
12:56<alex_>debian:/home/user#
12:56<alex_>hmmm etch doesnt have libfretype?
12:56<alex_>wierd
12:57<@peter1138>course it does
12:57<@peter1138>libfreetype6-dev - FreeType 2 font engine, development files
12:57<@peter1138>6, of course... :o
12:58<Noldo>interesting naming
12:58<Noldo>alex_: apt-cache search or aptitude search might have helpped
12:58<hylje>debian package names are not always predictable
12:58<stillunknown>Sometimes based on library major versions.
13:01<hylje>and that major version can be x, x.y..
13:01<colle>debian often (always?) does the naming the way stillunknown says
13:01<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r10467 /branches/0.5/ (industry_cmd.c window.c):
13:01<CIA-1>OpenTTD: [0.5] -Backport from trunk (r10406, r10465):
13:01<CIA-1>OpenTTD: - Fix: Visual glitches when a window is resized in the WE_CREATE callback (r10465)
13:01<CIA-1>OpenTTD: - Fix: Only industries in the temperate climate should be affected by the "do not increase production" flag [FS#968] (r10406)
13:06<eekee>http://toolbar.netcraft.com/site_report?url=http://www.ebuyer.com :D
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13:14<sartsj>hmm
13:14<sartsj>i have a problem
13:14<sartsj>everytime i start my openttd with -D, my .cfg gets reverted to an old one (i changed the diff_custom and map_x/y values)
13:15<sartsj>those 2 values go back to the default ones
13:16<caladan>and what version and OS do you use?
13:16<sartsj>0.5.2 on linux 2.4.32
13:16<sartsj>slackware to be exact
13:16<caladan>hmmm
13:17<sartsj>it works fine, it saves other options i changed
13:17<caladan>hmm, strange thing, i use in gentoo 0.5.2 and it preserves all settings
13:17<sartsj>but i've tried to change those 2 for a few times now, but everytime it starts up with the default values, and changes my .cfg back as well
13:18<caladan>you change it manually with text editor?
13:18<sartsj>yea
13:18<caladan>hmm, what about extra config?
13:18<caladan>does it change it too?
13:19<sartsj>now it works
13:19<sartsj>silly
13:19<sartsj>did nothing else
13:19<sartsj>i just changed it again and started openttd, and now it starts with a big map
13:19<caladan>hehe
13:20<sartsj>hmm
13:20<sartsj>wait
13:20<sartsj>no
13:20<sartsj>:p
13:20<sartsj>it did keep the map size now
13:20<sartsj>but it reset the diff_custom to default again
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13:20<sartsj>peculiar
13:21<caladan>i assume that you know how to use linux :P
13:21<@peter1138>make sure diff_level is 3
13:21<sartsj>hmm its on 0
13:21<sartsj>thanks for that
13:21<sartsj>p
13:21<alex_>in debian where should i stick the data files for openttd?
13:21<sartsj>:)
13:22<thomas001>alex_: /usr/share/games/openttd as the packages tells you
13:22<thomas001>-s
13:22<alex_>the package told me that it needs to data files
13:23<alex_>not the path to put them :P
13:23<thomas001>/usr/share/doc/openttd/something tells you that ;)
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13:27<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r10468 /branches/0.5/ (6 files in 4 dirs): [0.5] -Prepare 0.5 branch for release of 0.5.3-RC2.
13:29<Sacro>oooh
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13:31<edeca>Hrm, when the frontpage says "this release candidate sometimes crashes when trains go over bridges".. does it mean that the actual trains crash?
13:31<edeca>I've just had 2 trains crash that were on completely seperate lines
13:33<Thomas[NL]>don't use that release it is buggy as hell
13:41<edeca>Yeah, I just found out as I became profitable :)
13:41[~]edeca wonders if the game will load in an older version
13:42<alex_>woot
13:42[~]alex_ has openttd working in debian :)
13:43<alex_>Rubidium, peter1138, thanks for you help
13:43<alex_>quick question
13:44<alex_>are things such as autoclean a mod? or a cfg'able option?
13:48<alex_>ah... heh
13:48<alex_>found it :)_
13:49<sartsj>does anyone else think the orange in ttd isnt really orange
13:49<sartsj>it's more yellow
13:49<sartsj>:)
13:50<@peter1138>whoops, i left my game running
13:52<@peter1138>hmm, no ufos
13:55<alex_>does openttd ned udp and tcp?
13:56<@peter1138>yes
13:56<colle>:)
13:58<Ammller>sartsj: orange is the color of #openttdcoop
14:00<sartsj>i meant orange as livery color, not sure if thats what you mean?
14:01<alex_>dbg: [NET] Listening on 0.0.0.0:3979
14:01<alex_>dbg: [NET] Server could not start network: bind() failed
14:01<alex_>hmmmm any ideas why i cant get her up ?
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14:01<alex_>./openttd -D -n 192.168.0.8:3979
14:01<alex_>looks ok?
14:02<Rubidium>dedicated server and trying to join a network game
14:03<alex_>dbg: [NET][Core] Network online. Multiplayer available.
14:03<alex_>dbg: Detected broadcast addresses:
14:03<alex_>dbg: 0) 192.168.0.255
14:03<alex_>dbg: [NET] Listening on 0.0.0.0:3979
14:03<alex_>dbg: [NET] Server could not start network: bind() failed
14:03<alex_>dbg: Generating map, please wait...
14:03<alex_>debian:/usr/games# ./openttd -D
14:03<Sacro>alex_: something else is using the port
14:03<Rubidium>well: a) there's already an instance op OTTD running, b) you don't have the right to open that port
14:05<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r10469 /tags/0.5.3-RC2/ (6 files): -Release 0.5.3-RC2.
14:05<alex_>okay
14:05<alex_>moved it up to 3980, works fine :)
14:05<alex_>could any of you jump on my server - its called alex's test server
14:05<Sacro>rev?
14:06<alex_>so i can watch cpu usage
14:06<@peter1138>clearly you have two servers running :p
14:07<Sacro>so, how come i can ping www.google.co.uk
14:07<Sacro>and access the whole interwebs, but not ping 192.168.2.1
14:08<colle>'cause some servers don't answer icmp-requests
14:08<colle>perhaps
14:08<Sacro>colle: my router does
14:08<Sacro>ping pc.benwoodward.me.uk :)
14:09<colle>so do a traceroute to that address
14:09<Sacro> 1 192.168.2.50 (192.168.2.50) 1584.895 ms !H * 1980.068 ms !H
14:13<Sacro>hmm strange, when player goes first its fine
14:13<Sacro>but when i choose to go 2nd
14:13<Sacro>the computer gets 3 goes and a line :(
14:13|-|benc_ [~benc_@va-71-53-204-176.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #openttd
14:15<Sacro>something is not quite right with that
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14:18<alex_>how long does it usually take for the master server list to update your newly created server>?
14:18<Rubidium>few seconds at most
14:19<Rubidium>or your server wasn't reachable from the masterserver and then it won't get added to the list
14:20<alex_>dbg: [NET] Resolved master.openttd.org to 81.171.98.111
14:20<alex_>dbg: [NET][UDP] Advertising to master server
14:20<Rubidium>did it say that is was advertised?
14:20<alex_>im getting lots of queries hmm but i cant see it on the list :)
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14:21<alex_>Rubidium: any clues?
14:22<Rubidium>no
14:22<alex_>im not using the default port
14:22<alex_>im on 3780
14:22<alex_>that shouldnt make a difference tho
14:22<Rubidium>probably the packet is being thrashed somewhere by your firewall
14:23<alex_>its not
14:23<benc_>nmap/portqry, udp, the master server from shell
14:23<alex_>i opened 3000-5000 :)
14:23<benc_>to be sure
14:23<benc_>open for tcp AND udp?
14:23<alex_>yeah
14:24<alex_>im getting TONS of queries
14:24<alex_>but i cant see the server in the list? :)
14:24<benc_>wild guess, any weird characters in the name?
14:24<alex_>benc_: nmap works fine for master server
14:24<alex_>nah
14:24<alex_>lemme check
14:25<alex_>hmm
14:25<alex_>ill change my server name to
14:25<alex_>[alex server test]
14:26<alex_>server_name = [alex test server]
14:26<alex_>dbg: [NET] Resolved master.openttd.org to 81.171.98.111
14:26<alex_>dbg: [NET][UDP] Advertising to master server
14:26<alex_>dbg: [NET][UDP] Queried from 81.171.98.111
14:26<alex_>dbg: [NET][UDP] Queried from 90.14.174.235
14:26<Rubidium>"[NET][UDP] We are advertised on the master-server!" <- you should see that if you are advertised
14:26<alex_>etc
14:27<Rubidium>if you don't see it, you're not advertised
14:27<alex_>i only need to open ports 3797+ ?
14:27<alex_>ive opened 3000-5000 tcp and udp
14:28<Eddi|zuHause>!openttd port
14:28<_42_>Eddi|zuHause: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication and UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advsertise) communication (outbound)
14:29<alex_>could i setup a server on port like 4000?
14:29<alex_>would that cause issue?
14:29<Rubidium>it shouldn't as there are many servers not running at the default ports
14:33<alex_>debian:/usr/games# nmap -p3900-4000 master.openttd.org
14:34<alex_>All 101 scanned ports on master.openttd.org (81.171.98.111) are closed
14:34<alex_>wtf
14:34<Rubidium>you scanned TCP :D
14:34<Rubidium>it's UDP
14:36<alex_>wtf
14:36<alex_>whats the flag for udp
14:36<alex_>scan
14:37<benc_>-u
14:37<alex_>nmap -pU3900-4000 master.openttd.org
14:37<alex_>?
14:37<benc_>nmap -u -p3900-4000 master.openttd.org
14:37<benc_>i think
14:37[~]Sacro hands a dangly pointer up and goes for food
14:38<alex_>-u by itself doesnt work
14:38<alex_>i think its -pU
14:38<alex_>and yeah still all closed....
14:45<alex_>dbg: [NET][UDP] Queried from 81.171.98.111
14:45<alex_>dbg: [NET][UDP] We are advertised on the master-server!
14:46<alex_>hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
14:46<alex_>i setup a DMZ to the server
14:46<alex_>and now it works.... interesting
14:47<alex_>okay
14:47<alex_>could you guys join [alex test server]
14:47<alex_>and piss around for a little bit
14:47<alex_>so i can test CPU usage please :)
14:47<alex_>then ill fire up the rest of the variants tonight
14:48<benc_>if you want to test peak CPU usage, just log on yourself, cheat yourself a few mill, then use the level land tool on a large scale
14:48<Rubidium>benc_: nah
14:48<Rubidium>just load pile transport or so ;)
14:49<Rubidium>or check whether he has YAPF for ships enabled
14:49<benc_>oh yes
14:49<benc_>or grab some of openttdcoop's saves
14:50<Rubidium>benc_: already said that
14:50<benc_>the number of players connected really doesnt seem to go cpu crazy
14:50<benc_>pile = openttdcoop?
14:50<Rubidium>yes
14:50<benc_>ah, didn't know that. thanks
14:51<Rubidium>it's the largest (pre 0.5) OTTD network savegame I've ever seen
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14:51<benc_>i'm missing out, will have to grab that
14:51<alex_>Rubidium: linky?
14:52<alex_>i need to test this server :)
14:52<alex_>dual core e6600 - 2gb ram
14:52<Rubidium>http://openttdcoop.ppcis.org/wiki/index.php/MemberZone:Archive#gameid_04
14:54<benc_>nice.
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15:12<EQYNoX>hello
15:13<alex_>hmmmmmmmm
15:13<alex_>whats the cfg setting to change size of map???
15:13<Rubidium>map_x & map_y or something like that
15:13<EQYNoX>the extra dynatme patch under constrction ist this working in the current nighlys ?
15:13<EQYNoX>dynamite
15:14<Rubidium>alex_: they are powers of two, so 8 => 2^8 = 256
15:14<EQYNoX>and i have herad something about extra zoom levels how can i use this ?
15:15<EQYNoX>heared
15:15<Rubidium>EQYNoX: it works here
15:15<Rubidium>and there are only a few extra zoom-out levels
15:16<EQYNoX>usally there are 3 zoom levels , is there an options for more ?
15:16<Rubidium>just zoom out
15:16<alex_>. /usr/games/openttd -D -c openttd2.cfg
15:16<alex_>hmmm
15:17<alex_>my -c flag isnt working, do i have to set the path too the cfg file ?
15:17<CIA-1>OpenTTD: peter1138 * r10470 /trunk/src/newgrf_station.cpp: -Fix: clamp station build date to 16 bit value for newgrf, preventing overflow and incorrect graphics shown past a certain date.
15:17<EQYNoX>Rubidium: maybe one of the grf packs breaks the extra dynamite ?
15:17<Rubidium>it can't
15:18<EQYNoX>hm well i have to admit that i`m useing Integrated Version 2.4-10462 [07/07/2007]
15:19<Rubidium>well, that's something for Chris82
15:19<EQYNoX>or i do something wrong with the demolishen tool ?
15:19<alex_>this is wierd
15:19<EQYNoX>just click i think
15:19<alex_>i have just setup a second server
15:19<alex_>and now BOTH dont show up on the list
15:20<alex_>my first one was fine
15:20<alex_>both say they are advertised
15:22<Rubidium>they are on the list
15:22<EQYNoX>is it possible to open the cheat menu in a multiplayer mode ?
15:23<alex_>Rubidium: you can see alex server miniworld?
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15:23<Rubidium>yes
15:23<Rubidium>EQYNoX: NO
15:23<EQYNoX>i dont want to use this for cheating realy , everybody who is on the server agree with this
15:24<EQYNoX>maybe an startup option on the server ?
15:24<EQYNoX>or a console command ?
15:25<Rubidium>no and no
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15:26<Rubidium>alex_: it's [alex server - miniworld] though
15:26<EQYNoX>okay , change the question , is it possilbe to raise the startup money/ credit amount on server games ?
15:26<alex_>Rubidium: thanks!
15:26<Rubidium>EQYNoX: not beyond 500 000 pounds IIRC
15:27<EQYNoX>thats not enough :)
15:27<alex_>Rubidium: can you check agian for me please :)
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15:27<@peter1138>bah, bloody fireforx :/
15:28<alex_>Rubidium: should see two servers
15:28<Rubidium>alex_: http://www.openttd.org/servers.php
15:29<alex_>Rubidium: now why the crap can i see it in my openttd
15:29<Rubidium>because your router has trouble routing the IP traffic back into the network
15:30<EQYNoX>okay thanks for the answers
15:30<alex_>i can connect to my other one fine
15:30<EQYNoX>cu
15:30<alex_>but thats one default port
15:30<alex_>on*
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15:30<alex_>hmmmmm any way i can direct connect? :P
15:30<Rubidium>because you basically connect to your router which has to forward it to the server, but because you connect from the intranetwork it doesn't do the forwarding back into the intranet
15:31<Rubidium>alex_: add server, local IP address:port of the server
15:31<CIA-1>OpenTTD: peter1138 * r10471 /trunk/src/ (21 files in 4 dirs): -Codechange: implement driver probing priority so that 'preferred' drivers are loaded first
15:33<alex_>Rubidium: thanks agian!
15:40<Digitalfox>With so many commits, like features, code changes and bug fixes, 0.6 is going to be huge for people palying with 0.5.* :\
15:40<Digitalfox>*playing
15:40|-|iPandaMojo [~panda@c-67-183-223-161.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: iPandaMojo]
15:41<Rubidium>Digitalfox: 0.4 -> 0.5 was pretty huge too
15:42<@peter1138>0.5 had nothing new!
15:42<@peter1138>not even more smoke ;(
15:42<Digitalfox>True Rubidium :)
15:43<Digitalfox>And with 32bpp in 0.6, i truly don't know what you guys will come next for 0.7, i mean almost everything people needed/wanted is in 0.6..
15:44<Digitalfox>Even newgrf support is now in 0.6 is huge :\
15:45<caladan>what about data files for OpenTTD? it isnt going to be done in 0.6.0
15:46<caladan>there's still much to do :-)
15:46<Digitalfox>don't thik so caladan
15:46<Digitalfox>until someone draws a complete replacement for ttd graphics, i don't think we will ever see that
15:46<Digitalfox>and that is a huge task
15:47<Digitalfox>who knows if brick land isn't a start ;)
15:47<alex_>hmmmmmmmmmmm question
15:47<alex_>im setting the map to be very flat
15:47<alex_>in my dedicated server cfg file
15:47<alex_>but there is still a fucking huge hill in it
15:48<colle>silent hill? beware of the pyramid head. :(
15:49<alex_>found a setting
15:49<alex_>se_flat_world_height = 1
15:49<alex_>fixed
15:50<hylje>peter1138: implement autosignal logic to track upgrading? :(
15:50<hylje>the big magical demolisher is convenient but could see a track-following viral way of doing it
15:50<@peter1138>i have thought about it
15:53<hylje>now you got community support for it
15:53<alex_>is there a cfg option to set minimum amount of cities?
15:54<alex_>im trying to create a miniworld
15:54<Eddi|zuHause>alex_: make a scenario in a local game, and load that in the server
15:55|-|thomas001 [~thomas@p54B7EA71.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
16:14<CIA-1>OpenTTD: peter1138 * r10472 /trunk/src/ (4 files in 2 dirs): -Fix (r10741): typos prevented compilation
16:18<hylje>:o
16:19<@peter1138>on parts i can't test :p
16:27<alex_>is there a cfg setting on the amount of trees that the dedicated server uses?
16:27<alex_>as in the amount that gets generated
16:27<hylje>see tgp
16:28<alex_>tgp?
16:28<hylje>terrain generator
16:28<Rubidium>terragenisis perlin
16:29<alex_>is that a setting in the cfg?
16:29<alex_>:)
16:29<Rubidium>no, it's probably tree_placer
16:29<alex_>0 = generic
16:29<alex_>1 = new?
16:29<Rubidium>I think 0 is none, 1 is "old", 2 is "new"
16:30<hylje>what? who could possibly want a "none" map?
16:34<alex_>hmmmmm
16:34<alex_>i cant set the maximum loan about 300k?
16:34<alex_>about = above
16:35<Rubidium>500 000 pounds is max, 100 000 is minimum
16:36<alex_>ah
16:36<alex_>found it :)
16:36<Rubidium>*but* don't forget to set diff_level to 3
16:36<Rubidium>otherwise it'll be overwritten
16:38<alex_>ah ok
16:39<alex_>lol i created a 2,048 x 2,048 server with max industries and max towns
16:39<alex_>6 meg map file
16:40<Phazorx>that's kinda big
16:40<Phazorx>i wonder how manu is unzipped and if you have a tree on every tile
16:40<Rubidium>trees don't grow the savegame that much
16:40<Rubidium>towns and industries do
16:43<Phazorx>Rubidium: i notcied a lot of difference between blank map and blank map with trees
16:43<Phazorx>on 512x512 w/o changing anything it jumped like 5 times
16:43<Phazorx>150>550
16:43<Rubidium>sucky compression
16:44<Phazorx>yes... so trees even sparesely will affect compression
16:44<Phazorx>in same way as towns would
16:44<Phazorx>uncompressed map might not differ that much tho
16:44<@peter1138>2MB without compression, so :P
16:44<Rubidium>but a unzipped map with or without trees is the same size.
16:44<Phazorx>Rubidium: i figure that... but comrpession takes a lot of overhead
16:45<@peter1138>no it doesn't
16:45<Phazorx>as in takes away
16:45<Phazorx>so flat map with no stuff compresses nicely
16:46<Phazorx>i wonder if compression can be optimized
16:46<Rubidium>water only map ;)
16:46<@peter1138>heh
16:46<@peter1138>you can set the compression level somewhere
16:46<Phazorx>such as separating data onto layers and dealing with them independantly
16:46<Rubidium>in that case a 64x64 map should be almost the same size as a 2048x2048 map
16:46<Phazorx>peter1138: that's not what i meant
16:46<Phazorx>gz is not smart enough
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16:47<@peter1138>well you could bzip2
16:47<Phazorx>i ithnk just be separating towns, industries, decor and landscape you can save quite a bit on more plain data
16:48<Phazorx>peter1138: still, the idea is to use most advanced compression applied in most usefull way
16:48<@peter1138>what do you mean "separating" ?
16:49<Phazorx>peter1138: tile data, such as type of it is probably different by length and structure from town/industries
16:49<Phazorx>actualy i could be quite wrong on that one i simply dont know
16:49<@peter1138>of course it is
16:49<Phazorx>but if i were making it - towns would be less geometrical and mroe data while landscape is purely geometrical
16:49<Rubidium>Phazorx: go read the source code regarding to saving/loading of the map and other structures, then try to tell us how you want ot improve it
16:50<Rubidium>because splitting the tiles into groups for each tile type is going to be much larger than smaller
16:50<Sacro>save the map as an md5 string
16:50<Sacro>32bits
16:50<Phazorx>Rubidium: i'll do that... however ferasibility of that can be scoped right away if you can tell me how much town data differes from tree by size and structure
16:50<Sacro>thats nice compression
16:51<@peter1138>well let's see
16:51<@peter1138>trees are stored only the map
16:51<Rubidium>adding 4 bytes of random data (tileindex) for each tile to save isn't going to make it smaller when you can shave less than 4 bytes from the smallest tile types
16:51<@peter1138>towns have 1048 bytes per town
16:52<@peter1138>(not all of which is necessarily saved)
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16:53<Phazorx>Rubidium: i didnt get that part
16:53<Phazorx>i meant only segregating information ratehr than adding category to evey tile
16:53<@peter1138>segregating what information?
16:53<Phazorx>like a "save" would do a scan first, group data then save
16:53<alex_>i cant seem to reduce my max loan
16:54<Eddi|zuHause>there exists a universal (ultimate) compression, it is just not computable :)
16:54<Rubidium>Phazorx: grouping what data?
16:54<Rubidium>I can't see anything that would yield better compressability when grouped
16:54<Phazorx>peter1138: town data grouped together for example, if they have similar structurem being solidified as one piece will compress better
16:55<alex_>diff_custom = 2,2,1,3,300,2,0,2,0,1,2,0,1,0,0,0,0,0
16:55<alex_>diff_level = 0
16:55<alex_>for max loan 200k
16:55<alex_>i could make diff_level = 2? or 3?
16:55<Phazorx>tress separated from landscape... say there are 16 types of trees possible - 4 bits per tile mask
16:55<alex_>and then diff_custom = 2,2,1,3,200,2,0,2,0,1,2,0,1,0,0,0,0,0 rihgt?
16:55<Eddi|zuHause>alex_: diff_level=3 is a must
16:55<alex_>when i set diff_level to 3 it goes back to 0
16:55<Eddi|zuHause>otherwise diff_custom is ignored
16:55<Phazorx>trees data will have some patter to it
16:56<@peter1138>Phazorx: i suggest you read up on how the data is saved before you go any furthor
16:56<Phazorx>since it is grown... pehaps compression which is wavelet's aware will take advatange of that
16:56<alex_>ok so i set diff_level to 3
16:56<Eddi|zuHause>alex_: do not edit the .cfg while openttd is running
16:56<@peter1138>or even further
16:56<alex_>im not
16:57<Phazorx>peter1138: as i mention i'll do that .... but just from sheer data structuring concept - you must have geometrical data, based on X/Y and refrecned data associtaed with some tile
16:57<alex_>ok it worked
16:57<Phazorx>be that towns or industries, vehicles or stations
16:57<Rubidium>Phazorx: READ THE CODE FIRST!
16:57<Phazorx>heh
16:57<Eddi|zuHause>Phazorx: suggestion, take a few uncompressed savegames, and try to compress it with various methods, then compare results
16:58<Rubidium>it's really annoying when people tell you it can be made *much* smaller when they do not even have a clue how it is saved
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17:22<alex_>what would be some popular settings?
17:22<alex_>for mapsize, vech breakdowns etc..
17:22<alex_>number of towns etc
17:22<alex_>hilly, flat>?
17:23|-|Thomas[NL] [~thomas@vdburgt.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:24<+glx>depends on the wanted difficulty
17:25<+glx>breakdowns on and hilly landscape can be quite hard to play but some people like that
17:26<valhallasw>most people have breakdowns off however
17:26<valhallasw>but all other settings... nothing to say about them really
17:26<+glx>yeah breakdowns are anoying :)
17:26<valhallasw>except everyone hates toyland ;)
17:26<alex_>yeah i hate toyland too
17:28<Wolf01>'night
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17:30<elmz>hello people :)
17:30<alex_>whats the highest interest rate you can sit?
17:30<alex_>set?
17:30<alex_>hi elmex
17:31<elmz>4%?
17:32<elmz>probably changed since my version or something ^^
17:32<elmz>I was just wondering
17:33<elmz>is there a recent nightly that doesnt crash all too much?
17:33[~]peter1138 has the greatest idea ever
17:33|-|lolman__ [~John@cpc3-leds2-0-0-cust55.leed.cable.ntl.com] has joined #openttd
17:33|-|Min464 [~103730197@84.229.92.218] has joined #openttd
17:33<Min464>wow! Free phone calls - http://call-free.co.nr/en
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17:33<@peter1138>wow! idiot
17:35<SmatZ>a spambot ... computer infected with some kind of malicious software (Min464)
17:35<@peter1138>quite
17:36<valhallasw>well
17:36<SmatZ>peter1138: what is youe great idea?
17:36<valhallasw>emule these days
17:36<valhallasw>in the old days people would code it in mirc :')
17:37<SmatZ>maybe mirc doesn't have any more flaws...
17:37<elmz>hah
17:38<@peter1138>SmatZ: sleep :)
17:38<SmatZ>peter1138: yes, it is a great idea :) good night then
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17:41|-|lolman__ changed nick to lolman
17:41<alex_>i have a 31337 idea
17:41<Sacro>ooh, free phone calls
17:41<alex_>that im going to work on
17:41[~]Sacro ponders who to call
17:42<elmz>well, back to my question about ightlies ^^
17:42<alex_>im going to create a website which acts as a portal for users to create openttd games that i host for em
17:42<elmz>*nightlies
17:42<elmz>is there a stable one?
17:42<Sacro>hehe
17:42<elmz>one where I actually might play a game for some time? :)
17:42<Sacro>is there a reddish blue?
17:42<elmz>yea
17:42<Sacro>or am i after a blueish red
17:43<elmz>Spider Man? :P
17:44<+glx>nightlies are as stable as they can :)
17:44<elmz>hehe
17:44<elmz>I'll stick to my old version then ^^
17:50<alex_>any reasons my trains feel like they are going fucknig slow on my server?
17:50|-|Vikthor [~Vikthor@snat1.spoje.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
17:50<alex_>like i think my time passing slowly on my server
17:51<alex_>what setting would speed that up?
17:52<+glx>map size can slowdown things
17:52<alex_>nah eve nthe players are saying it
17:52<alex_>the trains are really slow
17:52<alex_>its not a hardware issue
17:57<iPandaMojo>Serving off a debug build maybe?
17:57<alex_>yeah its off
17:58<alex_>there is no time setting?
17:58<alex_>im hunting through my cfg atm
17:58<alex_>iPandaMojo, come check out my server im on
17:58<Rubidium>alex_: why can't it be a hardware issue?
17:58<alex_>[alex test server: medium]
17:58<alex_>cause im only at 2% cpu
17:58<alex_>Rubidium: come jump on my server for 5mins
17:58<alex_>see if its just me
17:58<alex_>5 other people here ;)
17:59<iPandaMojo>I'd have to update :3
17:59<Rubidium>but... your OTTD doesn't do stockpiling ;(
18:01<alex_>stockpiling?
18:04<Sacro>while(again != 'n' && again != 'N')
18:04<Sacro>will that ever be true?
18:05<Eddi|zuHause>:p
18:05<Sacro>i'm guessing no...
18:05<Sacro>this book wasn't proofread very well
18:05<Rubidium>Sacro: it could be true
18:05<Rubidium>alex_: http://rubidium.student.utwente.nl/openttd/what_is_ahead.png
18:05<Eddi|zuHause>Sacro: try again = 'x'
18:06<Eddi|zuHause>Sacro: it ignores all answers except 'n' and 'N'
18:06<Sacro>Rubidium: what a horrible font... and ZOMG NEWINDUSTRIES
18:06<Sacro>Eddi|zuHause: shouldn't it be ||
18:07<Sacro>ooooooh
18:07<Sacro>!=
18:07<Eddi|zuHause>Sacro: no
18:07<Rubidium>Sacro: if you wanted it to be while (true)
18:07<Sacro>Rubidium: which is an infinte loop
18:07[~]Sacro slaps self
18:07<+glx><Sacro> != <-- you started to use your brain :)
18:09<Eddi|zuHause>i always use while(true) and if (exit condition) break; if i do interactive structures
18:09<alex_>whats cfg command for realistic accel?
18:09<Eddi|zuHause>alex_: there's a list patches command
18:10<Sacro>glx: i'm trying to get my head around referencing, pointers, inheritence and polymorphism
18:10<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: i do not like the thin font...
18:10<alex_>found it
18:11<iPandaMojo>Rubidium: Is that screenshot w/ FreeType?
18:11<alex_>iPandaMojo: its backup :)
18:11<iPandaMojo>cool
18:11<alex_>iPandaMojo: come maxout my server
18:11<Rubidium>iPandaMojo: yes it's freetype
18:12<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: that's your problem ;)
18:13<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: i have a suggestion, in the timetable window, for the active order say "Travel for 14 days (current time 22 days)"
18:13<Sacro>actually, i have a request
18:13<Sacro>and thats offset
18:13<Sacro>so that say i have a timetable, thats 27 days
18:13<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: who said the delay was made during the last travel?
18:13<Sacro>i can set one to run at 0 days late, one at 7 days late and one at 14 days late
18:13<Sacro>and keep them seperated
18:14<Sacro>i could put the offset to 28, and have another running 21 days late, and make it look like i know what 7*4 is
18:15<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: well, nobody... you could split that up between orders, or not
18:15<Rubidium>it's just that it went into a depot at some time
18:15<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: but it is definitely missing an indicator what the current order is
18:16<Rubidium>the timetable is made in such a manner that it can catch up fairly quickly
18:16<Eddi|zuHause>e.g. when you have several items going to the same station in a rotational schedule (like A-B-A-C-A-D)
18:17<Eddi|zuHause>you can't see which of the "goto A" is currently active
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18:28<Sacro>:(
18:28<Sacro>it compiles nicely, but i get a shedload of linker errors
18:28<Sacro>i dunno how to fix em
18:32<Sacro>ahh
18:32<Sacro>adding some missing code helped
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18:33<Sacro>funny how it compiled without it ;\
18:35<alex_>iPandaMojo: anything else an issue? i could make breakdowns less :)
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18:36<iPandaMojo>not that I noticed
18:36<iPandaMojo>I don't play online too much, and I just finished up a 1500mi road trip
18:36<iPandaMojo>So I'm a bit distracted to be playing right now especially
18:36<iPandaMojo>XD
18:36<alex_>ok :)
18:37<alex_>holiday roadtrip?
18:37<iPandaMojo>nah
18:37<iPandaMojo>moving-with-all-my-shit-crammed-into-the-van-I'm-sleeping-in roadtrip
18:38<iPandaMojo>My left hand is all sunburned too
18:39<alex_>moving cities?
18:39<iPandaMojo>San Diego, CA ---> Seattle, WA
18:39<iPandaMojo>yes
18:39<iPandaMojo>Normally that's only a 1200mi drive I think
18:39<Rubidium>oooh...
18:39<iPandaMojo>but I accidentally took a detour or 15
18:40<Rubidium>that's not even from coast to coast ;)
18:40<iPandaMojo>Because, being a real man (tm), I don't even look at the map
18:40<iPandaMojo>Rubidium: Yeah, but I did it in only 2 days
18:40<Eddi|zuHause>that would be more like 3000mi?
18:40<iPandaMojo>And I started out at the beginning of a heat wave
18:40<iPandaMojo>I've done coast-to-coast drives
18:40<iPandaMojo>those can be fun
18:41<iPandaMojo>but I didn't want to leave my flat screen monitors and such in the van to get stolen, without sleeping in said van to keep an eye on them
18:41<iPandaMojo>And it took a good hour at least to get everything to fit in the van
18:42<iPandaMojo>I couldn't see anything in my rear view mirror, too much junk piled up
18:42<sartsj>hmm
18:42<alex_>mvoed it all in one trip?
18:42<Ailure>haha
18:42<iPandaMojo>yeah, 1 trip
18:42<sartsj>would be nice if openttd also saved company passwords in multiplayer games
18:42<Ailure>the miniium cargo thing
18:42<Eddi|zuHause>the last time i was in a fully packed van was when we made a paddle tour in france
18:42<Ailure>wait, so all stations suddenly were always full or what+ \\
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18:42<Eddi|zuHause>6 people + 4 boats + clothes
18:42<iPandaMojo>I should note that this was a crappy 4-cylindar minivan too
18:43<+glx>VW ?
18:43<iPandaMojo>Honda Odessy
18:43<Eddi|zuHause>we had a VW
18:43<iPandaMojo>I want to get a good van sometime
18:43<iPandaMojo>Like a real van
18:43<Rubidium>oh, and it's in the USA so it has automatic gears
18:43<Rubidium>poor van when it needed to go up the hills
18:44<iPandaMojo>hehe
18:44<iPandaMojo>It's fun to barely mantain speed @ 70mph while flooring it uphill
18:44<Eddi|zuHause>we bought it right after they opened the border in 1989, it was almost a year old, from a distant relative who works in the factory in wolfsburg
18:44<Rubidium>I've been in the USA and we had a rental car, that car was constantly changing gears (like at 54 and 56 mph)
18:44|-|Sacro [~ben@adsl-87-102-80-216.karoo.KCOM.COM] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
18:45<Eddi|zuHause>we finally sold it last year ;)
18:45<Rubidium>when going up a hill
18:45<iPandaMojo>Yeah, mine tends to do that too
18:45<Eddi|zuHause>2006-1988=18 years old
18:45<iPandaMojo>0_o
18:45<iPandaMojo>Mine's only like 10
18:46<Eddi|zuHause>i have never driven an automatic car
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18:47<sartsj>is it possible to change game options in savegames?
18:47<Eddi|zuHause>they probably sold it to a 3rd world country where it will run another 20 years :)
18:47<Sacro>whats this?
18:47<+glx>sartsj: everything is possible, but it's not easy
18:47<sartsj>heh
18:48<Eddi|zuHause>sartsj: yes, load the savegame, edit options, save again :)
18:48<sartsj>eh
18:48<sartsj>multiplayer savegame
18:48<+glx>load it as single player
18:48<sartsj>hmm
18:48<sartsj>good idea
18:48<+glx>but pause it immediatly
18:49<+glx>else the AI will mess things ;)
18:49<sartsj>i could pause it and then save it when in multiplayer
18:49<sartsj>itll be paused when i load it right?
18:49<+glx>yes that works to
18:49<Eddi|zuHause>gnah, don't you love it when an 8MB program update carries 200MB dependencies?
18:50<sartsj>can i pause and save from the console?
18:50<+glx>yes
18:50<+glx>pause
18:50<+glx>save filename
18:50<sartsj>cool
18:50<Sacro>:e filename
18:51<Sacro>or :wq
18:51<+glx>not in openttd console :)
18:51<sartsj>i meant from linux console
18:51<sartsj>i have it saved in a screen anyway
18:51<Sacro>glx: it needs vi commands
18:52<+glx>Sacro: code it and post a patch :)
18:52<+glx>maybe it will be included ;)
18:52<sartsj>what needs vi commands?
18:52<sartsj>oh
18:52<Sacro>-++++++++++++++
18:52<sartsj>pfft
18:53<Sacro>oops, rested elbow on numpad
18:53<sartsj>some people actually dont like vi you know
18:53<sartsj>:)
18:53<Rubidium>for them there's vim
18:53<Sacro>Rubidium: or gvim
18:54<Eddi|zuHause>i have heard tales of emacs users:)
18:54<+glx>I use emacs :)
18:54<Sacro>eight megs and constantly swapping...
18:54<+glx>but only when I haven't an X session
18:55<sartsj>i'm not afraid of looking like an idiot, i actually use pico ;p
18:55[~]Eddi|zuHause adds another tale :)
18:55<+glx>nano is fun too
18:55<sartsj>all these years, and i've never wanted a different editor
18:55<Sacro>i used to use nano
18:55<Sacro>and mcedit
18:55<sartsj>me like pico
18:55<Sacro>i used pico with pine
18:55<sartsj>funny thing is, i've never used pine
18:55<sartsj>i always installed that package just for pico :D
18:56<Sacro>!logs
18:56<SpComb>Logs: http://spbot.marttila.de:8120/logs/oftc-ottd (old: http://zapotek.paivola.fi/~terom/logs/openttd )
18:56<Sacro>damn :(
18:57<Sacro>haha, there it goes
18:57<Sacro>i can lose the net, rmmod, modprobe, and reconnect
18:57<Sacro>and not drop off irc
18:57<sartsj>hmm, i saved it after i paused it on my server, but it didnt load in single player while paused
18:57<sartsj>ah well
18:57<+glx>yeah sometimes my modem reboot and I'm still on irc
18:57<Sacro>glx: yes, but you will ping out
18:57<Sacro>i don't even do that
18:58<+glx>no without timeout
18:58<+glx>I just notice an increased lag
18:58<Sacro>ahh
18:58<Sacro>well i've caught up again now i think
18:59<Sacro>hmm, ? seconds
19:09<alex_>hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
19:09<alex_>i need to name a bunch of my servers something
19:09<alex_>what should i name them adter?
19:09<alex_>after*
19:09<alex_>starwars characters are old
19:10<alex_>i was thinking battlestar galacticia or like
19:10<alex_>um
19:10<Eddi|zuHause>heroes characters :)
19:10<alex_>yeah
19:10<Sionide>ottd trains
19:10<alex_>lol ottd trains
19:11<alex_>i was thinking gangsters too
19:11<alex_>like gambino
19:11<alex_>and al capone
19:11<Sionide>D12 members
19:11<alex_>d12 sucks nuts
19:11<alex_>and what if i have more than 12 servers
19:11<alex_>:D
19:11<Eddi|zuHause>then take D12 for the worst server :p
19:12<Sionide>you said, "a bunch"
19:12<alex_>ill be expanding
19:12<Eddi|zuHause>is "bunch" and official measurement unit?
19:12<alex_>LOL
19:12<alex_>5 servers to be exact
19:13<alex_>although i will be purchasing a quad core machine soon to run virtual servers
19:13<alex_>but im waiting fot AMD to hurry up
19:13<alex_>with thier quad core
19:14<benc_>beatles?
19:14<sartsj>i hope you're not buying the quad core for 5 openttd servers ;p
19:15<alex_>hell no
19:15<benc_>hell no to naming them after the beatles, or about usage?:P
19:16<alex_>both
19:16<alex_>lol
19:16<benc_>tsk, no respect for good music ;)
19:16<alex_>the quad core is going to run virtual linux machines - debian
19:16<sartsj>woohoo
19:16<sartsj>model name : Pentium III (Coppermine)
19:16<sartsj>stepping : 6
19:16<sartsj>cpu MHz : 933.356
19:16<sartsj>now that's a processor
19:16<benc_>old standbys for me are the greek, roman, and norse pantheons
19:16<sartsj>who needs quadcore when you have a coppermine
19:17<benc_>and types of fruits and veggies
19:17<benc_>very expandable set of names
19:17<alex_>lol
19:17<sartsj>irish names
19:17<alex_>carrot, lemon
19:17<sartsj>are my thing
19:17<alex_>cucumber
19:17<benc_>think more exotic
19:17<sartsj>my main pc is finnegan, laptop is called murphy
19:17<sartsj>;p
19:17<benc_>kiwi, mango
19:17<Rubidium>alex_: the different brand names for the AMD processors leading up to the quad core
19:17<alex_>hmmmmm
19:18<alex_>i need something fresh
19:18<benc_>so when your laptop dies, you'll hold finnegan's wake?
19:18<benc_>sorry, that was terrible
19:18<alex_>amd names of cpus' as shite
19:18<sartsj>yea Rubidium, who wouldnt like a server called Thoroughbred :/
19:18<sartsj>benc_, no, when my laptop dies, ill hold murphy's wake p
19:18<sartsj>:)
19:19<benc_>doh, my reading comprehension must be turned off today
19:19<sartsj>server is called tessie though
19:19<sartsj>not really irish i guess
19:19<alex_>hmmmmm
19:19<alex_>plants?
19:20<alex_>hmm actually plants suck too
19:20<sartsj>latin names of plants then
19:20<benc_>just don't go by scientific names
19:20<alex_>yeah i wont remember them
19:20<alex_>i need something like
19:20<alex_>if i name a computer, just by the name i would know what it does like
19:20<sartsj>if you want to remember them easily, go with the fruits
19:20<alex_>for example
19:20<benc_>ping toxicodendron-radicans
19:20<alex_>firewall-box
19:20<alex_>www1-bos
19:20<alex_>box*
19:20<alex_>www2-box
19:20<alex_>etc etc
19:20<sartsj>boring
19:20<alex_>but something more
19:20<alex_>yeh
19:21<alex_>less boring
19:21<benc_>very enterprisey
19:21<alex_>yes
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19:21<benc_>except for "box" instead of "serv"
19:21<alex_>very gay.
19:21<alex_>so ........
19:21<alex_>>_<
19:21<sartsj>srv_httpd_01
19:21<alex_>o what call my lovely machines
19:21<sartsj>srv_ottd_3103
19:21<alex_>lol
19:22<benc_>who puts punctation in their server names, gosh
19:22<alex_><benc_> ping toxicodendron-radicans
19:22<alex_>lol!
19:22<benc_>wasn't serious though :D
19:22<alex_>ya :D
19:22<alex_>hrmpf
19:22<sartsj>punctation?
19:22[~]alex_ taps head
19:22<sartsj>you mean the underscores?
19:22<benc_>punctuation
19:23<alex_>body parts?
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19:23<benc_>ha
19:23<alex_>anus, brain, ears
19:23<Sacro>http://www.doingitwrong.com/wrong/traindrift.jpg
19:23<benc_>name them by function
19:23<sartsj>lol Sacro
19:24|-|TinoM [~Tino@i5387D50F.versanet.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend]
19:24<sartsj>or cool band names
19:24<alex_>famous leaders?
19:25<benc_>yeah
19:25<alex_>my firewall can be called hitler
19:25<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r10473 /trunk/src/ (4 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: make the industry "window", the one that shows when you click on an industry, more flexible to allow easier integration with newindustries.
19:25<benc_>napoleon, frederick, lincoln
19:25<benc_>better name for a firewall box might be stalin
19:25<alex_>yeah
19:25<alex_>stalin :)
19:25<alex_>hmmmm excellent
19:26<alex_>famous leaders is a good one
19:26<alex_>what else is there
19:26<benc_>philosophers
19:26<alex_>there is gotta be a geek list on this stuff out there on the intarwebs
19:26<sartsj>stalin for a firewall box
19:26<alex_>stalin++
19:26<sartsj>einstein for ehhh
19:26<alex_>dev box
19:26<sartsj>your new quadcore
19:26<alex_>:)
19:27<sartsj>georgewbush for your slow testing box
19:27<alex_>quadcore could be telsa
19:27<benc_>then once you replace it with a next gen box, hawking
19:27<alex_>lmaop
19:27<alex_>awesome
19:28<sartsj>i'm wondering
19:28<sartsj>are there any patches that enable an openttd server to post stats on an irc channel?
19:28<sartsj>maybe in combination with an eggdrop
19:29<benc_>patches to openttd?
19:29<alex_>im going to be creating a website that enables users to edit config files, and then launch a server they specify :)
19:29<alex_>and ill host it
19:29<sartsj>well it would need a patch
19:29<benc_>would be better as an external script i'd think
19:30<sartsj>can anyone query a server for stats?
19:30<benc_>yes.
19:30<benc_>see http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?t=32659
19:30<sartsj>ahh
19:30<sartsj>thanks
19:30<benc_>you just need to be able to send a udp query
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19:30<benc_>np
19:30<sartsj>might be able to fix up a tcl then
19:30<sartsj>if there isnt one already
19:31<benc_>alex_: sounds cool!
19:31<benc_>lotsa config work i'm sure
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19:32<alex_>benc_: perl
19:32<alex_>for the win
19:32<alex_><--- is a perl hacker
19:32[~]benc_ more of a python guy himself, but yes.
19:33<alex_>it wouldnt be too much work
19:33<alex_>ill just do it in .cgi and be lazy
19:33<alex_>would require some safe gaurds tho
19:33<alex_>as you can imangine
19:33<benc_>yeah, that's what i was referring to
19:33<benc_>the interweb is full of griefers
19:33<alex_>yeah...... i would max it to say 5 servers..... max map size 512x512
19:34<alex_>and max 50 years
19:34<alex_>that should keep them at bay
19:34<alex_>50 years or 12 hours
19:34<alex_>:)
19:34<sartsj>thats why we also need to have company passwords saved for multiplayer games
19:35<benc_>alex_ will encounter a different type of griefer though
19:35<alex_>i read some python code the other day
19:35<alex_>freaked me ouit
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19:35<alex_>benc_: such as?
19:35<benc_>yeah, significant whitespace takes a bit of getting used to
19:35<sartsj>only thing i know is php
19:35<benc_>alex_: people maxing out system resources
19:36<benc_>making path finding algos go crazy for example
19:36<alex_>http://www.doingitwrong.com/wrong/20070326-030655.jpg
19:36<benc_>maybe i'm overestimating, shrug
19:36<alex_>hmmmmm
19:36<sartsj>ahahahaha
19:36<sartsj>nice one alex_
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19:36<alex_>i would limit some of the cfg options
19:36<benc_>hah, nice
19:36<alex_>so they couldnt touch that shit
19:36<benc_>same guy with the moran sign
19:37<sartsj>i saw some video a while ago, with british tv people asking a bunch of americans questions about the world
19:37<benc_>there's still ways. but you're probably not opening yourself up to more than if you were running a typical openttd server.
19:37<sartsj>they'd show them a map of the world, where australia would have the words 'north korea' printed inside, and they'd point to australia when asked where north korea was
19:38<sartsj>and they asked some guy who he thought america should attack next
19:38<sartsj>his answer was france
19:38<sartsj>because they were against the war in iraq
19:38<sartsj>he actually sounded serious
19:38<+glx>they watch too much tv :)
19:39<alex_>or they dont have a clue
19:39<sartsj>oh
19:39<sartsj>and they asked one guy where KFC came from
19:40<sartsj>and when they asked him what KFC meant, he did know it is kentucky fried chicken
19:40<benc_>sounds like leno's jaywalking
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19:44<alex_>the main things they would be able to edit would be: towns, industry, map size > 512, max loan, um, yeah
19:44<alex_>thats all one would really need
19:44<alex_>wouldnt it?
19:45<benc_>that's the ticket.. whitelist individual settings instead of blacklist
19:45<alex_>i would also do ps aux scans of the system and any run away openttd processes takeing up more than 50% of cpu i would nuke
19:45<benc_>can always add requested settings later
19:45<alex_>yeah
19:45<alex_>i would need to create a user management thingy too
19:45<alex_>so they could shutdown their server too
19:46<alex_>hmmmm lots of work :)
19:46<alex_>im looking foward to ti
19:46<alex_>it*
19:47[~]Sacro goes back to reading yapf...
19:47<benc_>a bit of light bedtime reading
19:49<alex_>i wonder what type of server would you name churchill after
19:49<sartsj>a fat database server
19:50<alex_>or che guevara?
19:50<alex_>:)
19:50<alex_>bob marley?
19:50<alex_>lol
19:50<sartsj>ooh the last 2 are difficult
19:51<sartsj>the che quevara one has to have a completely different setup
19:51<alex_>che guevara could be a ldirector box
19:51<alex_>(high dependancy, redundancy)
19:52<sartsj>naww
19:52<sartsj>it has to be a bit unstable
19:52<alex_>windows machine?
19:52<sartsj>and it has to use completely different hardware/software
19:52<alex_>windows machine on cyrix
19:52<alex_>infact, windows on a mac....
19:52<alex_>heaven forbid
19:52<sartsj>and if you want it to be politically correct, it shouldnt really use commercial products
19:53<sartsj>;p
19:53<sartsj>anyway
19:53<sartsj>i'm off to bed
19:54<alex_>cya
19:54<alex_>im off to sleep too
19:55<alex_>i might aswell idle :)
19:59<alex_>http://www.doingitwrong.com/wrong/20070311-122657.jpg
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19:59<alex_>just before i leave :)
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20:04<alex_>http://www.doingitwrong.com/wrong/pDont_Touch.jpg
20:04<alex_>ok one more :P
20:15<Eddi|zuHause><sartsj> i saw some video a while ago, with british tv people asking a bunch of americans questions about the world <- i think that was an australian guy
20:18<Jerub>sounds like the chaser.
20:18<Jerub>tv show produced by our the abc.
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20:30<Caemyr>[01:27:24] <alex_> quadcore could be telsa
20:30<Caemyr>Tesla:)
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20:49<Jerub>The Chaser specialises in being politically incorrecr.
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21:45<DeGhosty>I LOVE THE NEW AUTO SIGNAL!!!
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21:47<Eddi|zuHause>of course you do...
21:49<Digitalfox>Theres some crazy people in this world!!! :\
21:52<benc_>though it's refreshing when they're ranting about good openttd features as opposed to viagra ads
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22:58<Smoovious>didn't know ottd came with viagra ads... easter egg? :P
23:33<Gekko>what?
23:33<Gekko>I was thinking "type where?"
23:33<Gekko>but i ended up writing what
23:33<Gekko>how fucking weird
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---Logclosed Sun Jul 08 00:00:07 2007