Back to Home / #openttd / 2007 / 07 / Prev Day | Next Day
#openttd IRC Logs for 2007-07-10

---Logopened Tue Jul 10 00:00:46 2007
---Daychanged Tue Jul 10 2007
00:00|-|Osai^zZz [~Osai@pD9EB6A65.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd
00:12|-|Thomas[NL] [~thomas@vdburgt.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd
00:15|-|HMage [HMage@hmage.dialup.corbina.ru] has joined #openttd
00:38|-|Osai^zZz [~Osai@pD9EB6A65.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Osai^zZz]
00:47|-|Zavior [~Zavior@d195-237-7-209.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
00:47|-|Zavior [~Zavior@d195-237-7-209.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #openttd
00:47|-|Taikaponi [~Zavior@d195-237-7-209.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #openttd
01:04|-|benc_ [~benc_@va-71-53-204-176.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
01:07|-|KUDr_wrk [~KUDr@195.39.113.200] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
01:07|-|KUDr_wrk [~KUDr@195.39.113.200] has joined #openttd
01:18|-|elmex [~elmex@e180065205.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #openttd
01:19<@peter1138>Sionide is a specs tsar :o
01:25|-|Zavior [~Zavior@d195-237-7-209.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
01:25|-|Taikaponi [~Zavior@d195-237-7-209.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
01:26|-|Frostregen_ [SADDAM@dslb-084-058-148-196.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd
01:28<Smoovious>czar
01:29<@peter1138>both valid spellings
01:31|-|Frostregen [SADDAM@dslb-084-058-169-110.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
01:31|-|Frostregen_ changed nick to Frostregen
01:39|-|benc_ [~benc_@va-71-53-204-176.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #openttd
01:55<ln->http://worsethanfailure.com/Articles/Zero-Tolerance.aspx
01:56|-|HMage [HMage@hmage.dialup.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
01:58<@peter1138>:o
01:59|-|HMage [Queneex@hmage.dialup.corbina.ru] has joined #openttd
02:10<CIA-1>OpenTTD: peter1138 * r10497 /trunk/src/ship_gui.cpp: -Fix (FS#1013,r8464): Ship max speed wrongly shown (benc)
02:20|-|edeca [~david@beefy.two-pebbles.com] has left #openttd []
02:22|-|benc_ [~benc_@va-71-53-204-176.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has left #openttd []
02:33|-|lolman_ [~John@cpc3-leds2-0-0-cust55.leed.cable.ntl.com] has joined #openttd
02:33|-|lolman [~John@cpc3-leds2-0-0-cust55.leed.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
02:40|-|scia [~scia@85.149.96.102] has joined #openttd
02:47<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r10498 /trunk/ (config.lib src/network/network.cpp): -Fix [FS#1008]: remove inconsistency between a warning and the actual behaviour.
02:50<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r10499 /extra/website/ (server_detail.php servers.php): [Website] -Fix: escape the characters in the revision string.
02:52|-|Maedhros [~jc@i-195-137-43-74.freedom2surf.net] has quit [Quit: leaving]
02:54|-|Maedhros [~jc@i-195-137-43-74.freedom2surf.net] has joined #openttd
02:56|-|Vikthor [~Vikthor@snat1.spoje.net] has joined #openttd
03:09|-|Brianetta [~brian@82-39-52-234.cable.ubr03.benw.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined #openttd
03:27<HMage>I love how MSVC reports STL errors: http://www.bdsoft.com/dist/vcmeta-demo.txt
03:27<Noldo>templates make it so much interesting
03:30<flex>fancy
03:31<flex>as in msvc6 were you can get 1500 lines of warnings because your debugnames is more that 256 bytes long...
03:32|-|tokai|ni [~tokai@p54B8172D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
03:33|-|tokai|ni [~tokai@p54B81B38.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd
03:41|-|Kokunai [~Kokunai@cpe-76-183-37-106.tx.res.rr.com] has joined #openttd
03:43|-|Kokunai [~Kokunai@cpe-76-183-37-106.tx.res.rr.com] has left #openttd []
03:49|-|Gekko[PDA] [~gekko@S010600e09103b7cd.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
03:49|-|Gekko[PDA] [~gekko@S010600e09103b7cd.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #openttd
03:50|-|Gekko[PDA] [~gekko@S010600e09103b7cd.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
03:54|-|Gekko[PDA] [~gekko@S01060016171edbe0.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #openttd
03:58<HMage>flex: I usually disable that warning, at least that's possible.
04:09|-|SmatZ [~smatz@a40-prg1-5-107.static.adsl.vol.cz] has joined #openttd
04:14|-|scia_ [~scia@85.149.96.102] has joined #openttd
04:16|-|scia [~scia@85.149.96.102] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
04:24|-|scia_ [~scia@85.149.96.102] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
04:24|-|Gekko[PDA] [~gekko@S01060016171edbe0.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
04:41|-|lolman__ [~John@cpc3-leds2-0-0-cust55.leed.cable.ntl.com] has joined #openttd
04:41|-|lolman_ [~John@cpc3-leds2-0-0-cust55.leed.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
04:41|-|Gekko[PDA] [~gekko@S01060016171edbe0.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #openttd
04:42|-|lolman__ [~John@cpc3-leds2-0-0-cust55.leed.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
04:44|-|Nickman [~nn@d54C1C327.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd
04:46|-|lolman [~John@cpc3-leds2-0-0-cust55.leed.cable.ntl.com] has joined #openttd
04:46<SmatZ>I cannot connect with rev10498M to rev10498 servers anymore, it makes problems with some testing :( how can I fake my revision in the easiest way?
04:47<@peter1138>you never could connect an M to a non-M
04:47<Rubidium>SmatZ: vim objs/debug/rev.cpp
04:48<Rubidium>or ./configure --revision=r10498
04:48<ln->peter1138: which is quite silly, because the M can be caused by something that doesn't affect on network play.
04:49<@peter1138>and so can r10497 to r10498
04:49<ln->naturally
04:49<SmatZ>peter1138: I did test some patches on public server - maybe it was a long time ago, but I could connect
04:49<SmatZ>Rubidium: thank you
04:50<@peter1138>so the rule is, and always will be, that the revision number should match exactly.
04:57|-|lolman [~John@cpc3-leds2-0-0-cust55.leed.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
05:05<Brianetta>Any developer (not just the dev team) who modifies the game has the responsibility to check network compatibility for themselves, and to build the correct version number if they are certain that it works.
05:05|-|lolman [~John@cpc3-leds2-0-0-cust55.leed.cable.ntl.com] has joined #openttd
05:16|-|Gekko[PDA] [~gekko@S01060016171edbe0.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
05:22|-|iPandaMojo [~panda@c-67-183-223-161.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: iPandaMojo]
05:40<Sionide>peter1138...?
05:41|-|skidd13 [~skidd13@213.23.133.82] has joined #openttd
05:42<skidd13>What has happend to docs.openttd.org?
05:46<@peter1138>it's b0rked
05:46<@peter1138>still
05:46<skidd13>:(
05:48<@peter1138>Sionide, written proof
05:49<skidd13>Where is the code to GetVehicle(...)?
05:49<@peter1138>it's in a macro
05:50<skidd13>I ment which file.
05:51<@peter1138>oldpool.h
05:51<@peter1138>meant, btw.
05:51<skidd13>thanks
05:54|-|skidd13 [~skidd13@213.23.133.82] has left #openttd []
05:55|-|Gekko[PDA] [~gekko@S01060010a71a08fb.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #openttd
06:10|-|elmz [elmz@ti300710a080-3479.bb.online.no] has joined #openttd
06:10|-|_Ben_ [~Ben@91.84.106.114] has joined #openttd
06:13|-|Gekkko [~brendan@CPE-124-183-85-6.nsw.bigpond.net.au] has joined #openttd
06:13|-|Gekkko changed nick to Gekko
06:19|-|smoovi [~smoovi@dslb-088-073-074-048.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd
06:31|-|Gekko [~brendan@CPE-124-183-85-6.nsw.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
06:54|-|Nickman changed nick to Nickman^Away
07:05|-|mikl [~mikl@gw.imtnet.dk] has joined #openttd
07:07|-|Noldo [vheino@jumi.lut.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
07:07|-|Noldo [vheino@jumi.lut.fi] has joined #openttd
07:20|-|Sacro [~ben@adsl-87-102-80-216.karoo.KCOM.COM] has joined #openttd
07:24|-|NukeBuster [~opera@195-241-212-152.dsl.ip.tiscali.nl] has joined #openttd
07:26|-|Progman [~progman@p57A1D838.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd
07:31|-|eekee [~ethan@cpc2-lanc4-0-0-cust540.brig.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Quit: Restarting terminal]
07:39|-|eekee [~ethan@cpc2-lanc4-0-0-cust540.brig.cable.ntl.com] has joined #openttd
07:41|-|dihedral [~dihedral@dslb-084-056-209-131.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd
07:42<dihedral>hello ladies :-)
07:42<Sacro>hello dihedral ;)
07:42|-|Sacro [~ben@adsl-87-102-80-216.karoo.KCOM.COM] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
07:44|-|JazzyJaffa [~ben@fwnat-pub-1.physics.ox.ac.uk] has joined #openttd
07:44<eekee>lol
07:46|-|glx [glx@bny93-6-82-245-156-124.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #openttd
07:46|-|mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ
07:54|-|JazzyJaffa [~ben@fwnat-pub-1.physics.ox.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
07:54|-|ThePizzaKing [~jeff@c211-28-160-16.eburwd2.vic.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
08:02|-|Sacro [~ben@adsl-87-102-80-216.karoo.KCOM.COM] has joined #openttd
08:07|-|Chris82 [~chris@p579E1D4B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd
08:07<Chris82>hola :)
08:08<dihedral>heyhey Chris82
08:12<eekee>\o
08:20|-|NukeBuster [~opera@195-241-212-152.dsl.ip.tiscali.nl] has left #openttd []
08:23<Chris82>is there a cheat to give you lots of money for testing purposes?
08:23<hylje>yes
08:24<Chris82>and how do I use it?
08:24<@peter1138>ctrl-alt-c
08:24<@peter1138>same as all the other cheats
08:25<Chris82>well I never used any cheats before :)
08:26<Chris82>also I wanted to know how funding a bank works or if it works at all
08:26<Chris82>whenever I try to fund a bank it tells me that the site is not suitable for a bank
08:28|-|Jezral [~projectjj@users.kollegienet.dk] has joined #openttd
08:28<Maedhros>you might have to attempt to build it on a house
08:28<Maedhros>(although i just tried that and got an assert)
08:28<@peter1138>nice
08:31<Chris82>well I have a 20k city here and more than enough money and literally tried to build it on any tile in or around the city
08:31<Chris82>always tells me site unsuitable
08:31<Chris82>building the other industries works fine
08:32<dihedral>TrueBrain back yet?
08:34|-|TinoDidriksen [~projectjj@users.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
08:41<@peter1138>depends what you want
08:42|-|Peakki [antti@cs181000195.pp.htv.fi] has joined #openttd
08:54<blathijs>peter1138: Was that an answer to dihedral's question? :-)
08:56<@peter1138>yes
08:58<blathijs>:-)
09:00<@Belugas>dihedral, did you contacted CS's agency yet?
09:09|-|smoovi [~smoovi@dslb-088-073-074-048.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
09:10<dihedral>Belugas: yes - sent them an email on Friday though i have not heard anything back from them yet
09:11<dihedral>i shall give the 'guy' some time, just in case he aint at work or so... and perhaps give them another call next week
09:11<blathijs>What are we asking CS?
09:11|-|lolman [~John@cpc3-leds2-0-0-cust55.leed.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
09:12<dihedral>trying to find out who to contact about the copyright 'n such
09:12|-|lolman [~John@cpc3-leds2-0-0-cust55.leed.cable.ntl.com] has joined #openttd
09:13<@Belugas>yeah, give it another approach, since Atari still does not answer....
09:13<blathijs>dihedral: Weren't we contacting someone high up at Atari or something?
09:13<@Belugas>good going, dihedral
09:13<dihedral>we were until they decided not to respond... again
09:13<dihedral>thx
09:19|-|Chris82 [~chris@p579E1D4B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: studying]
09:20<Eddi|zuHause>we should just sue someone :)
09:20<blathijs>dihedral: Too bad. Good to hear things do keep rolling, still :-)
09:21<@Belugas>dihedral : our legal expert to be ;)
09:23<blathijs>:-)
09:25|-|Osai^zZz [~Osai@pD9EB7E78.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd
09:25<dihedral>well well
09:25<ln->huh, what's going on?
09:26<dihedral>i just spoke to the legal guy (named 'guy') of CS agency
09:26<dihedral>who said that CS was very aware of all the various projects around TTD
09:26<dihedral>and not too amused by them
09:26<blathijs>dihedral: You called or something?
09:27<dihedral>yep
09:27<dihedral>numerous emails i sent using a certain web client never got sent... so i called
09:27<dihedral>and sure enough he never got my email
09:28<dihedral>and guess what
09:28<dihedral>OpenTTD is one of the projects they dont like but are fully aware of
09:29[~]narth looks arround for any supprised faces....
09:29<ln->they = CS?
09:29<dihedral>agency of CS = CS
09:29<ln->right
09:29<dihedral>guy said that some of those projects get CS pretty upset
09:30<blathijs>Did they ever say why?
09:30<dihedral>yes
09:30<dihedral>CS has a vision of what a game is supposed to be... and he aint chuffed when others come and play around with 'his vision'
09:31<dihedral>and they are fully aware of the fact that some portion of reverse engeniering had to be done
09:31<Eddi|zuHause>well, he would be free to come here and take influence :)
09:31<@peter1138>that's the stock answer indeed
09:31<Sacro>would we actually give him commit rights?
09:31<dihedral>lol
09:32<narth>lol
09:32<@Belugas>dihedral, did he said if OTTD was breaking CS's vision?
09:32<dihedral>no
09:32<dihedral>he never stated anything THAT directly
09:32<@Belugas>so he did not gave any names
09:32|-|Osai^zZz changed nick to Osai
09:33<dihedral>he was not so happy when openttd was mentioned... or ttdpatch
09:33<Eddi|zuHause>he might very well mean the DBSet breaking he vision of the game being based on british trains :p
09:33<Sacro>hehe
09:33<@Belugas>what else did you discussed?
09:33<Sacro>does he give UKRS his stamp of approval
09:33<@Belugas>please, guys, stop the jokes...
09:33<@Belugas>this is srious stuff
09:33<@Belugas>dihedral, go on
09:33<dihedral>he said i should stay away from any projects :-P
09:34<dihedral>that CS/the agency would take legal actions if they thought it was fit to
09:34<@Belugas>did he leave any room of discussions?
09:34<dihedral>i.e. if they found ottd breaching any of their client contracts
09:35<dihedral>he was very friendly Belugas
09:35<dihedral>most gratefull that i even called to ask
09:35<@Belugas>so he's open minded, ne would say?
09:35<dihedral>but clearly stated that no way would CS release source code
09:35<Sacro>he doesn't need to
09:35<@Belugas>nobody asked for that
09:36<dihedral>i never asked for that either
09:36<Gekko[PDA]>who's CS?
09:36<ln->besides the source code is asm
09:36[~]glx slaps Gekko[PDA]
09:36<Sacro>Gekko[PDA]: Chris Sawyer
09:36<ln->Gekko[PDA]: some guy who wrote some game back in the 90's
09:36<Gekko[PDA]>oh
09:36<Sacro> /me slaps Gekko[PDA] too
09:36<Gekko[PDA]>i know
09:36<Gekko[PDA]>ddnt realise the acronym?
09:36<Gekko[PDA]>.
09:37<@Belugas>dihedral, did you planed for another meeting?
09:37<Sacro>Belugas: s/did/have/
09:37<dihedral>if i have more questions i would call again :-)
09:37<Sacro>dihedral: did you speak to him?
09:37<dihedral>perhaps in 20 minutes? j/k
09:37<dihedral>i spoke to Guy
09:38<dihedral>the legal person of marjacq
09:38<ln->dihedral: so did you find out who is the copyright owner?
09:38<Sacro>ln-: i don't think anybody knows that
09:38<@Belugas>that's a good quetin :)
09:38<dihedral>Atari is
09:38<dihedral>though atari or any body else never had enough license rights to make ttd free
09:38<Sacro>zomg, Microprose got bought by Spectrum Holobyte
09:39<@Belugas>back to square one
09:39<dihedral>nope
09:39<@Belugas>ho?
09:39<dihedral>Belugas: marjacq / CS have the rights to release source or make freeware
09:39<ln->but not the graphics and sounds?
09:39<@Belugas>ok
09:40<dihedral>and i mentioned that game data is not distributed with ottd
09:40<Sacro>ln-: Simon B... something owns the music
09:40<ln->Sacro: i doubt that.
09:40<@peter1138>who cares about graphics and sound? that's on your TTD CD
09:40<Gekko[PDA]>give him $5 and as case of beer for it:
09:40<dihedral>but he said that ottd must have done some reverse engeniering which is illegal
09:40<@peter1138>so does ttdpatch :)
09:40<Gekko[PDA]>he has no proof
09:40<ln->peter1138: tell me where to buy one, so i won't need to play without graphics and sounds anymore.
09:40<dihedral>Gekko[PDA]: just shove an old sock down your throat
09:40<Gekko[PDA]>>.>
09:40<Sacro>Gekko[PDA]: its on the wikipedia
09:40<Gekko[PDA]>never.
09:41<@Belugas>dihedral : suggestion ask him what would they consider a way to repay for that
09:41<Gekko[PDA]>Sacro: everyone can edit wikilpedia
09:41<@Belugas>if ever
09:41<@peter1138>repay, heh
09:41<Eddi|zuHause>it's on wikipedia, it must be true :p
09:41<@Belugas>well...
09:41<ln->Gekko[PDA]: ludde himself has said he has done reverse engineering.
09:41<@Belugas>lack of a better term...
09:41<@peter1138>ludde himself wasn't going to release it
09:41<@peter1138>it's all orudge's fault
09:41|-|Digitalfox [~chatzilla@bl7-182-93.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.78.1 [Firefox 2.0.0.3/2007030919]]
09:41<ln->let's kick orudge then!1
09:41<Gekko[PDA]>lol
09:42<dihedral>he said we should write our own game
09:42<dihedral>i already asked for his advice on what could be done
09:42|-|Digitalfox [~Digitalfo@bl7-182-93.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #openttd
09:42|-|Digitalfox changed nick to Digitalfox_Desktop
09:42<ln->that would have been a good idea...
09:43<Sacro>but we have all seen the code
09:43<Sacro>we'd need a white box team
09:43<dihedral>Sacro: you would not
09:43<@Belugas>that's the only thing he said?
09:43<Sacro>mmm
09:43<orudge>Kicking me? How rude.
09:43[~]Sacro pops out for a sandwich
09:43<Gekko[PDA]>what can he do
09:44<dihedral>Belugas: yes
09:44|-|De_Ghost [~De_Ghost@CPE0050ba8caf2c-CM0011aec4b06a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #openttd
09:44<Gekko[PDA]>"cease and desist bitches"
09:44<dihedral>Gekko[PDA]: for starters you could shut up
09:44<Gekko[PDA]>lol
09:44[~]dihedral is not kidding
09:44<Gekko[PDA]>lol
09:44|-|mode/#openttd [+b *!*gekko@*.ed.shawcable.net] by peter1138
09:44|-|Gekko[PDA] kicked [#openttd] peter1138 [yes, shut up]
09:45<ln->it somehow keeps amazing me that in addition to cloning the functionality of TTD, ludde also cloned almost all the limitations of TTD.
09:45<dihedral>very bad question + very bad though
09:45<dihedral>:
09:45<dihedral>could all you guys knowledge be bundled into a 'new' game?
09:46<blathijs>16:40 < dihedral> but he said that ottd must have done some reverse engeniering which is illegal <-- The idea was that it isn't, at least not where Ludde comes from
09:46<blathijs>though IANAL
09:46<dihedral>blathijs: world wide legal stuff
09:47<ln->peter1138: well done
09:47<dihedral>How much effort would it be to write a complete new engine for the game?
09:47<blathijs>We are probably doing that already
09:47<blathijs>bit by bit
09:48<narth>at a guess, based ont he roadmap on the wiki... about all the work between now and ver1.0?
09:48<@Belugas>immense, if asked from scratch. ONly the network part, the pathfinding could be reused, i think
09:48<dihedral>completely getting away from the look & feel of ttd
09:48<De_Ghost>yes network overhaul!!
09:48<@Belugas>even harder, we would need to desing a new look and feel
09:48<orudge>Well, in that case, we may as well go and work on Transport Empire and abandon OpenTTD, I guess
09:48<@peter1138>depends. might not be possible using existing code, as it's tainted.
09:49<De_Ghost>yes new graphic
09:49<De_Ghost>no more cpu rendering!!
09:49<dihedral>orudge: no
09:49<orudge>to be free of legal issues regarding OpenTTD code
09:49<orudge>well
09:49<dihedral>work on a new'ish thing
09:49<orudge>I guess it depends on how much one views our current code as being a derivative of the original reverse engineering
09:49<Digitalfox_Desktop>I'm not a lawyer, but if the graphics and sound are not part of openttd, because you still have to get them from original game ( so you still need to have the a legal copy ), and the code is so much changed from original "reverse engeniering", shouldn't this discussion been over.. Besides theres no money coming from openttd, it's open source...
09:49<orudge>and so on
09:49<dihedral>then dump current ottd stuff
09:49<dihedral>then rename...
09:49<dihedral>slighly
09:49<De_Ghost>graphic can't umm
09:49<orudge>it's still based "originally" on the code though, which tends to be the problem
09:49<De_Ghost>what u call
09:49<De_Ghost>owned
09:50<orudge>from what I'm aware of.
09:50<orudge>*as far as I'm aware
09:50<@peter1138>Digitalfox_Desktop: money has not a lot to do with copyright
09:50<ln->Digitalfox_Desktop: how much do you need to change OTTD code in order to avoid redistributing it under GPL?
09:50<dihedral>Digitalfox_Desktop: by the looks of it CS is pretty unhappy - at least enough to have his agency go lecally
09:50<@peter1138>exactly
09:51<Digitalfox_Desktop>dihedral: he is? But do you think a lawsuit could happen?
09:52<dihedral>guy said "there are only so many procecutions that can take place in one year"
09:52<orudge>the other question would be: lawsuits against who, exactly?
09:52<dihedral>orudge: for one you as being the host
09:52<orudge>well, I figured that
09:52<orudge>but who else? :P
09:52<dihedral>:-P
09:52<Digitalfox_Desktop>Does CS still have the copyright over TTO/TTD or is it microprose that is now is Atari part or something like that?
09:52<dihedral>not me - i am the 'good' guy :-D
09:53<orudge>ie, OpenTTD has had many contributors over the years
09:53<orudge>Ludde has apparently made a bob or two from his selling of uTorrent, maybe he can provide us with a legal fund ¬_¬
09:53<ln->if someone had just created a new game from scratch, *inspired* by TTD, with free graphics, it could still be very popular and none of these discussions would be necessary... but well, too late.
09:53<dihedral>orudge: you would start with the one doing revers engeniering
09:53<alex_>reverse enginnering is huge in todays business
09:53<orudge>Indeed
09:53<alex_>just look at AMD on intel
09:53<orudge>ln-: people tried doing that several times
09:53<Maedhros>i really doubt that's reverse engineering
09:53<orudge>none of the projects got very far
09:53<@peter1138>nobody's doing reverse engineering on ottd anymore
09:54<@peter1138>(if they ever did, heh)
09:54<alex_>Maedhros, in the '80's it was
09:54<@peter1138>dihedral: did you mention ttdpatch at all?
09:54<Maedhros>ah, well ;)
09:54<orudge>People don't really want a game that plays "like" TTD, they want a game that -is- TTD
09:54<orudge>or so it seems.
09:54<dihedral>yes
09:54<dihedral>though openttd seemd to bring a slighly nastier reaction on the other end of the phone
09:54<dihedral>:-)
09:54<ln->orudge: and the fact that those attempts failed in a way proves that the code taken from TTD was and still is essential to OTTD.
09:55<dihedral>nasty question to all of you
09:55<De_Ghost> when is the road and tram super tool coming
09:55<De_Ghost>the one that the rail ahave
09:55<dihedral>what would you guys be prepared to give up to continue work on a great game
09:55<De_Ghost>where you can lay muti direction with 1 tool
09:55<De_Ghost>nothing? why do they have to give up anything
09:55<De_Ghost>it's a hobby
09:55<De_Ghost>lol
09:56<Digitalfox_Desktop>I don't know, but i feel a lawsuit won't happen.. It's a game with 13 years, even before windows 95 was on the stores... But since CS is suing Atari for some money on Rollercoaster Tycoon 3 he feels is his money, don't know..
09:56<Maedhros>dihedral: what sort of thing are you thinking with regard to giving up?
09:56<dihedral>Digitalfox_Desktop: appart from the lawsuit stuff - just to get CS and marjacq happy
09:56<Digitalfox_Desktop>Suing for a game with 13 years would be a historic thing in video games
09:57<orudge>Well, the thing is with that, Digitalfox_Desktop - with RCT, Atari do owe him money, and Atari do have money
09:57<Digitalfox_Desktop>dihedral: yeah :)
09:57<orudge>and are much easier to "target"
09:57<orudge>a bunch of open source developers scattered across the world are somewhat harder to track down
09:57<orudge>and probably have a lot less to "give"
09:57<dihedral>Maedhros: dumping ottd code and starting from scratch
09:58<Maedhros>to be honest, i wouldn't be completely averse to it
09:58<ln->we should remember that if they choose to sue someone, that "someone" could be e.g. any one of the devs. i don't think it is necessary to sue the one who started the whole thing, or has been in lead, why couldn't they just pick someone.
09:58<Maedhros>but would any of us be able to do anything like that without someone being able to claim it's based in part on openttd?
09:58<dihedral>orudge: stoping progress on any ttd development (let it pe ~Patch or Open~)
09:58<dihedral>that is all they would want
09:59<Digitalfox_Desktop>But my question is, if things like newindustries in openttd have new code, that have nothing to do with the way ttd was coded, and some much things have a different implementation and design on code, what comparisons could be made besides GUI?? Is there a way to check code for duplication?
10:00<orudge>well
10:00<Maedhros>newindustries uses parts of the original code
10:00<Digitalfox_Desktop>And the code language is also differnt
10:00<Maedhros>and is thus based on ttd
10:00<dihedral>Digitalfox_Desktop: it's changing CS's 'vision'
10:00<orudge>I guess it's partially made more difficult by the fact we don't have the first ~1000 SVN revisions or so, although archives of v0.1 etc are still available - which I believe still contain the original IDA scripts used to help in the disassembly
10:00<Digitalfox_Desktop>hum.. ok..
10:01<orudge>and various older routines do look fairly obviously copied when compared to the TTD originals
10:01<dihedral>dumping all releases and releasing /trunk with own graphics would be a start
10:01<orudge>(something Oskar noticed when he first looked through the code, hence his not wanting to get involved)
10:01<Maedhros>what, like the unkxx variables? ;)
10:01<@Belugas>and the numerous goto statememts
10:02<Maedhros>dihedral: but would that be enough? we don't distribute the graphics anyway
10:02<orudge>The thing is, of course, we don't know that a lawsuit is coming. It's "possible", but if so, why hasn't it happened already? If OpenTTD were to start charging or something for use, that may be a different story.
10:02<orudge>hmm
10:02<Digitalfox_Desktop>But would it be possible besides the tremendous work, to in c(++) recreate openttd with new code and still looking like ttd??
10:02<Maedhros>*cough* esoftinteractive *cough*
10:03<orudge>Well, they're not related to us, as such
10:03<@Belugas>well... now, they know we know thier position
10:03<dihedral>orudge: guy said that if he found one of the projects imposing on one of their clients contracts... then
10:03<orudge>Hmm.
10:03<Maedhros>which clients, and what contracts?
10:03<dihedral>Belugas: they know i know their position
10:03<@Belugas>do they know you are our speaker on this case?
10:03<orudge>Digitalfox_Desktop: it'd be possible, but officially, you'd likely want it to be written by developers who have no knowledge of the OpenTTD source
10:03<ln->orudge: if it honestly is about 'vision', then originally OTTD was not far away from the vision, but is getting farther away, and may reach the limit of tolerance..
10:04|-|skidd13 [~skidd13@p548A66DE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd
10:04<orudge>for fear of reintroducing "stolen code" as it were
10:04<orudge>eg, look at ReactOS and allegations of use of reverse engineered/stolen Microsoft code
10:04<orudge>and the fact they then had to perform a complete source audit and suchlike
10:04<dihedral>i personally would be pretty happy if i could give those guys another call and be able to tell them that ottd was going to put effort into writing something of their own
10:04<De_Ghost>you know what
10:04<De_Ghost>everything is patented
10:04<De_Ghost>you know how company avoid lawsuit
10:05<De_Ghost>they tell their engineer not to look at patents
10:05<De_Ghost>because if you are looking
10:05<Maedhros>that's not a solution
10:05<De_Ghost>every tech u have is a patent infrigment
10:05<ln->don't mess patents with this discussion.
10:05<De_Ghost>and the patent offce is a mess
10:05<dihedral>Maedhros: you mean me or De_Ghost
10:05<@Belugas>dihedral, personnaly, i would say this would be the last step. I would rather see if there is anything that can be done in between NOTHING and SCRAP it all
10:05<Maedhros>dihedral: i meant De_Ghost, sorry :)
10:05<ln->De_Ghost: this whole thing has nothing to do with patents.
10:06<De_Ghost>ehhh
10:06<De_Ghost>i only read soemthing about that
10:06<De_Ghost>lalwalwl
10:06<dihedral>De_Ghost: have another game of 0.5.3-RC2
10:06<De_Ghost>what is happening?
10:06<dihedral>:-)
10:06<De_Ghost>:D
10:06<dihedral>and enjoy the game
10:06<De_Ghost>someone is sueing openttd?
10:06<dihedral>deeeep down
10:06<dihedral>breath in the sand in a desert game
10:06<dihedral>let it make you cough
10:06<orudge>De_Ghost: not as such.
10:07<orudge>but potentially it may happen
10:07<orudge>as people have basically known all the time
10:07<dihedral>Belugas: what is 'between'
10:07<De_Ghost>ahhh whoes gonna sue u
10:07<ln->could someone kick De_Ghost, please, because he seems to be lost but eager to talk.
10:07<De_Ghost>ttd is not even worth anything
10:07<@Belugas>don't know yet. But i think it would be up to them to tell.
10:07<@Belugas>Some form of recognition...
10:07<@Belugas>anything
10:07<@Belugas>like..
10:07<dihedral>Belugas: i could call briefly again
10:07<skidd13>Here in germany it is allowed to reverse engenieer software if this is needed to be able for correct usage of the software. But only if the original author does not provide support for the problem. So you have no problem with OpenTTD in Germany.
10:08<dihedral>skidd13: NOT TRUE
10:08<orudge>skidd13: hmm, Oskar doesn't appear to agree with that
10:08<orudge>Oskar doesn't want to be involved with OpenTTD in any way due to the strictness of German copyright laws, apparently
10:08<@Belugas>we've worked on the project for so long, there is such a big followup, it would be a shame to let it go completely
10:08|-|mode/#openttd [+o orudge] by ChanServ
10:08<dihedral>Belugas: migrating would let others follow
10:08|-|mikl [~mikl@gw.imtnet.dk] has quit [Quit: ...in the end, all that matters is your relation with God.]
10:09<dihedral>letting OpenTTD live until a new playable something is there
10:09<@Belugas>basically, it is false. People do not follow devs, they follow an environnement
10:09<dihedral>the biggest thing in my eyes would be that you guys do the development together
10:09<ln->may I remind about one thing that is most certainly copyrighted material and is distributed with OTTD; all the text strings.
10:09<dihedral>with all knowledge you have been able to gather in the progress of OpenTTD
10:09<skidd13>dihedral: check the UrHG. Cause software is protected by the UrHG!
10:10<dihedral>skidd13: i live in germany and i have had issues with companies before
10:11<skidd13>Algorithms are treated diffrent!
10:11<dihedral>there is a reason why 'closed source' is 'closed' and why penalties are so high
10:12<dihedral>ottd is a release of somthing that nobody here ever owned
10:12<dihedral>i personally can understand if CS frowns upon it
10:13|-||Jeroen| [~jeroen@d51A43614.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd
10:13<dihedral>Belugas: if www.openttd.org became a redirect to something new - they would follow
10:14<dihedral>if they were introduced with forum entries and ottd news entries to the topics
10:14<dihedral>'new' in this case does not mean 'different game style'
10:15<ln->what would you people say if CS took OTTD source, modified it and released a multi-platform commercial game?
10:15<dihedral>just means 'your game, your code'
10:15<ln->dihedral: (yeah, i personally agree)
10:15<dihedral>and a happy CS
10:15<alex_>soooooooooooo
10:15<dihedral>^ sung in the melody of 'we wish you a merry x-mas'... 'and a happy new year'
10:15<alex_>openttd being sued?
10:16<dihedral>nope
10:16<alex_>why not?
10:16<alex_>microsoft sues all
10:16<dihedral>why should they
10:16<alex_>cause, its microsoft
10:16<alex_>:)
10:17<dihedral>Belugas: what if i gave marjacq a call saying that you guys are aware of the call i made and thinking of what the way forward could be?
10:17<@orudge>I would suggest probably best not to, personally.
10:17<@orudge>in that, well
10:17<dihedral>that would make them happy and would attleast move their attention away
10:17<@peter1138>there was no attention before you stuck your nose in :p
10:17<@orudge>I guess we don't want to "incriminate" outselves in a way by admitting stuff. Also, perhaps best to figure out what we actually want to do :P
10:18<dihedral>peter1138: wrong
10:18<@orudge>we didn't know of it, so it didn't exist ¬_¬
10:18<dihedral>guy was well aware of ottd when i spoke to him
10:19<blathijs>Bah, gotta go. Will have to read back for the rest of this discussion later :-)
10:19<dihedral>cu
10:19<blathijs>dihedral: On the subject of calling them again, I don't think it will ever be a viable option to create a "Clean OpenTTD" or something like that
10:20<dihedral>sure it would not be a OpenTTD
10:20<blathijs>dihedral: So, it's probably not any good suggesting anything like that
10:20<dihedral>but it none the less could remain a transport something
10:20<@peter1138>you can always go play simutrans...
10:21<@peter1138>that's OS now
10:21<@peter1138>or at least, the source is available
10:21<alex_>peter1138, make the server browser window bigger please :)
10:21<dihedral>how similar is simutrans?
10:21<alex_>when you click on find servers
10:21<@peter1138>alex_: shut up
10:21<alex_>all the names are cramped
10:21<dihedral>because taking their code and making /trunk like like it derived from simutrans would be an idea :-P
10:21<alex_>peter1138, not possible?
10:22<Maedhros>alex_: possible, but completely irrelevant to the current discussion
10:22<dihedral>*look like
10:23<alex_>Maedhros, oh the conversation that i dont care about? :)
10:23<alex_>sorry.
10:23<ln->simutrans doesn't advertise being open source, just says freeware.
10:23<narth>alex_: post it as a feature to bugs.openttd.org
10:23<@orudge>alex_: also, demanding that someone do something probably isn't the best way of getting it done :>
10:23<Rubidium>it's the best way to NOT get it done ;)
10:23<alex_>true, i apologize peter1138
10:24<alex_>and narth, and orudge, and Maedhros
10:24|-|narth changed nick to narthollis
10:26<dihedral>any thoughts sprouting or are you guys in some dev discussion elsewhere?
10:26<De_Ghost>%password
10:26<De_Ghost>oops wrong windo
10:27<SpComb>dihedral: out of interest - are you actually a lawyer?
10:27<dihedral>nope
10:27|-|skidd13 [~skidd13@p548A66DE.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
10:27|-|skidd14 [~skidd13@p548A67AF.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd
10:27<skidd14>I worked a bit on Zojj's performance meter patch. Suggestions or comments to it's code? -> http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?t=31794&start=23
10:28|-|skidd14 changed nick to Skidd13
10:32<De_Ghost>performance meter?
10:33<Skidd13>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?t=31794&start=13
10:34<SmatZ>it looks nice :)
10:36<Skidd13>SmatZ: Since you are one of those mad ;) optimisation guy's are 10 seconds timed measurement enought?
10:36<Skidd13>enought -> enough
10:37[~]Sacro returns
10:37<@Belugas>so the question is : what should be done now
10:37<SmatZ>Skidd13: every percent counts :)
10:37<Digitalfox_Desktop>Jesus... Skidd13 that topic has dates all mixed in replys..
10:38<@Belugas>go forward ignoring the risks, close the shop, start from scratch or find an agreement
10:38|-|Ailure [Gamefreak@194.47.44.201] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
10:38<Digitalfox_Desktop>Skidd13: My firefox is going crazy
10:39|-|Ammler [~Ammler@adsl-62-167-60-239.adslplus.ch] has joined #openttd
10:39<@orudge>Belugas: I would probably suggest A) - so much work has been put in that B) would seem rather a shame. C) would end up dying like the other projects and D) would be nigh on impossible. Of course, if a lawsuit then comes along in a year or two, B) may begin to look attractive.
10:40<Skidd13>Digitalfox_Desktop: Not here but I've also problems with the I-NET connetion here ATM... Time to reconnect the router... BRB
10:40|-|Skidd13 [~skidd13@p548A67AF.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #openttd []
10:40<De_Ghost>new engin!!!!
10:40<De_Ghost>no more cpu graphic!!1
10:41<De_Ghost>death to spirites!!
10:41<@Belugas>so, dihedral, let say you don't callback right now, let us think about it.
10:41<dihedral>Belugas: sure :-)
10:41<ln->hmm, do you think distributing the graphics with OTTD would really affect the probability of a lawsuit?
10:41<Digitalfox_Desktop>IF and again IF a lawsuit could be made against openttd, wouldn't it go to ludde? Since he started it ?
10:42<dihedral>ln-: the fact that CS aint happy and marjacq know openttd is enough
10:42|-|mode/#openttd [+b *!*De_Ghost@*.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] by peter1138
10:42|-|De_Ghost kicked [#openttd] peter1138 [slipped]
10:42<dihedral>that 'guy' guy was pretty bright
10:42<@orudge>[16:41:37] <ln-> hmm, do you think distributing the graphics with OTTD would really affect the probability of a lawsuit? <-- I imagine it might
10:43<Sacro>who is marjacq?
10:43<@orudge>Sacro: Chris Sawyer's agency
10:43|-|skidd13 [~skidd13@p548A7B5D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd
10:43<dihedral>it sounded like these projects were topic over at marjacq more than once
10:43<Sacro>well perhaps someone should arrange a meeting of one or two of our devs, and one or two of their guys
10:44<dihedral>Sacro: i think that could end up badly
10:44<@orudge>Indeed
10:44<ln->no sleep and all TTD multiplayer?
10:44<Sacro>dihedral: yes, but surely if its gonna kick off, then rather sooner than later
10:44<@orudge>Sacro: well
10:45<@orudge>I would think it's better we don't do anything (more) to incriminate ourselves
10:45<@orudge>such as going up to them and admitting "yeah, it's reversed engineered, what do you want to do about it?"
10:45<@orudge>if they decide to follow through in the future, then, well, that will have to be dealt with
10:45<SmatZ>skidd13: the 'Current ticks' I get 30-220 ticks/s, Average is 24.0
10:45<@orudge>as long as we don't do anything stupid such as include the graphics with the game, or whatever, then it's quite possible they may let things go
10:45<@orudge>it's a risk, perhaps
10:46<SpComb>have there been some recent developments in terms of OpenTTD's legal status that I've missed out on? I'm sure CS has been aware of OpenTTD and such for ages (he commented on it in an interview once), and not really expressed any gratitude
10:46<@orudge>but the other alternative appears to be to abandon OpenTTD completely
10:46<ln->orudge: the text strings of the original game are included in OpenTTD.
10:46<@orudge>ln-: as you mentioned earlier, indeed
10:46<Biff>hmm, 0.5.2 gets a failed assertion
10:47<skidd13>SmatZ: Average is the overall value.
10:47<@orudge>SpComb: not that I'm aware of
10:47<SmatZ>skidd13: the About row is not displayed under the '?' button
10:47<@orudge>Chris Sawyer has never publically expressed an opinion on OpenTTD
10:47<@orudge>today's information is what we've found out now via Marjacq
10:48<dihedral>just imagine following for me:
10:48<skidd13>SmatZ: Oh... I'll look where I've missed to raise the index.
10:49<dihedral>openttd halts, devs appologize to marjacq and CS and build a game of their own
10:49<dihedral>explaining that imposing on CS's vision to the game was never ment to be 'distorted'
10:50<@orudge>is that following a lawsuit, or as a hypothetical "immediate" thing?
10:50<dihedral>orudge: before lawsuite, not immediate :-D
10:51<dihedral>perhaps an imediate appology and informing of planned actions would give more time
10:51<alex_>or anyone from the openttd community could call marjacq and talk to them about it :)
10:51<@orudge>The thing is, Marjacq/CS haven't officially contacted us saying they're not happy. They say a lawsuit may be a possibility in the future. But they haven't said "we want you to stop" or anything, they say that Chris Sawyer isn't "amused" by it
10:52<dihedral>alex_: i have
10:52<dihedral>amused was my word
10:52<@orudge>What was it he said on the phone, then?
10:52|-|MarkSlap [~hestporr@h51n6c1o1114.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
10:52<dihedral>rather ennoyed
10:53<dihedral>something along that line
10:53<@orudge>maybe it's just me, but it seems like an awful shame to throw away all this work. We've known since day 1 that there may be legal ramifications - dig up the old discussions on the forum. My personal inclination would be to carry on as we have, until someone actually tells us to stop, or something else happens (eg, Zernebok takes over the world and makes a hostile takeover of Marjacq/CS Software Development/Atari/whoever :P)
10:53<@orudge>Hnmn
10:53<alex_>hmm and the only thing openttd uses from the oringinal is the grpahics?
10:53<@orudge>And the sound
10:53<@orudge>and the original gameplay
10:53<@orudge>(originally derived by reverse engineering)
10:54<alex_>hacking though assembly code?
10:54<@orudge>basically
10:54<alex_>throught*
10:54<alex_>-t
10:54<dihedral>orudge: CS is thanked for a good game in the readme
10:54<alex_>wow, thats rough
10:54<alex_>dihedral, lol like that makes up for it
10:54<dihedral>now if CS aint happy about the game, why thank him
10:54<dihedral>why not make him happy
10:54<Sacro>imitation is the sincerest form of flattery
10:54<dihedral>lol
10:55<dihedral>a game that is inspired by ttd can show thanks to CS too
10:55<dihedral>besides - it only has to be migrated far enough to make it clear - this is a own creation now
10:55<ln->it's a pity CS's Locomotion was what it was.
10:55<dihedral>all features can be used
10:56<Sacro>i used to love Microprose
10:56<Maedhros>dihedral: err, do you know how much effort that would take?
10:56<Sacro>they brought me Transport Tycoon and GP2
10:56<dihedral>Maedhros: unfort - yes
10:56<@peter1138>do you also know what "derived" means?
10:56<@orudge>dihedral: and you're aware that every previous attempt to do this has failed? :>
10:56<@orudge>basically, as far as I'm concerned, we can carry on, or we can stop. There's not really another option
10:56<dihedral>giving up?
10:56<@orudge>unless there's some sort of motivation
10:57<Sacro>i don't recall any
10:57<@orudge>Sacro: any what?
10:57<@orudge>Transport Empire?
10:57<@orudge>TT2?
10:57<@orudge>TTU?
10:57<@orudge>etc
10:57<Sacro>oh... yeah
10:57<dihedral>my motivation would be having a public statement by CS and seeing them being grateful that openttd devs understand CS
10:58<dihedral>and that openttd honores CS work and oppinion and feelings
10:59<@orudge>That may be your motivation, but will it be enough of a motivation for everyone else?
10:59<@orudge>especially considering that losing two years of work would probably be quite a significant "demotivation", if there's such a word :p
10:59<dihedral>i dont know - i just hope there is something to make all happy
10:59<dihedral>orudge: you would not have to 'lose' work as such
10:59<@orudge>Well
11:00<dihedral>you need a new engine
11:00|-|MUcht [~Mucht@p57A0F15C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd
11:00<dihedral>you need new graphics + sounds
11:00<@orudge>One could argue that even the "new" code in OpenTTD is, legally-speaking, "tainted"
11:00<@orudge>because it's still built on those core foundations
11:00<@orudge>that were laid by Ludde from his reverse engineering
11:00<dihedral>one could talk to marjacq about it
11:00<Sacro>even if you upgrade to elrails, its still the same line underneath :(
11:01<@Belugas>i would rather envision someting like a good talk indeed...
11:01<ln->dihedral: i'm afraid you think OTTD code is much more modular than it really is; i don't think it would be easy just to plug in a new engine without changing a lot of code all around the project.
11:01<@orudge>I fear such a talk would not end up being favourable for us, however.
11:01<dihedral>ln-: that would be the aim
11:02<dihedral>orudge: depends what 'favourable for us' means
11:02<@orudge>considering Chris Sawyer is not generally a fan of such projects, even if they are technically independent, would he be happy even if we reconstructed a new game that just happened to be very similar to TTD?
11:03<dihedral>marjacq is aware of the fact that reverse engeneering was done - so i believe it would be fine
11:03|-|Mucht_ [~Mucht@p57A0C5AE.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
11:04<dihedral>they see their clients contract at first place, protecting their work
11:05<dihedral>guy was most thankful for me asking and checking what they / their clients think
11:05<Sacro>Guy Herbert
11:05<Sacro>Has a background in publishing, small company finance, and law. Currently works in a wide range of industries dealing with intellectual property, and has provided Marjacq and its clients with advice on contractual and financial issues since 1993.
11:05<@orudge>I was just reading that, Sacro
11:05<@orudge>and just about to paste that
11:05<@orudge>D:
11:05<@orudge>stop stealing my brainwaves
11:05<Sacro>hehe :p
11:05<@orudge>I even had it highlighted!
11:06<alex_>we can debate this for hours, lets just solve it when the time comes
11:06<alex_>if we goto court, ill hand over my $5
11:06<dihedral>alex_: not helpful
11:06<alex_>dihedral, ok, ok, $6
11:07<alex_>CS + marjacq coming down on openttd would only put the project underground
11:08<@orudge>Nevertheless, we have no indication that that /will/ happen. It /may/ happen, but that's always been a risk. If people want to create a new "clean" project, then that's fair, but even then, one could argue that if they've been involved with OpenTTD, they could still be "tainting" the code (again, see the ReactOS/Microsoft, and FreeDOS/MS-DOS issues in the past)
11:08<dihedral>alex_: turning around now and informing CS + marjacq now would though in return flood the projects + devs with thanks
11:09<@orudge>or, if people keep bothering them, it may motivate them to shut us down properly ;>
11:09<Sacro>if we restart, we might have to drop a lot of the main devvs
11:09<dihedral>and why would that be
11:10<@orudge>"If people want to create a new "clean" project, then that's fair, but even then, one could argue that if they've been involved with OpenTTD, they could still be "tainting" the code (again, see the ReactOS/Microsoft, and FreeDOS/MS-DOS issues in the past)"
11:10<@orudge>for instance
11:10<@orudge>with ReactOS
11:10<@orudge>there were some developers who had seen the leaked Windows 2000 code
11:10<@orudge>and used their knowledge to implement some internal functions
11:10<@orudge>this provoked a variety of legal issues
11:10<alex_>i dont think CS would go that far
11:11<@orudge>Something similar happened with FreeDOS, where someone had seen some MS-DOS source code, and used his knowledge of it to reimplement the same functions in FreeDOS
11:11<alex_>i mean openttd has been going on for ages already, if CS wanted to come down on openttd i tihnk he wouldve done it aslreay
11:11<dihedral>orudge: if any progress was done after communicating it with marjacq i do not think this would have to be the case
11:11<alex_>alreadY*
11:11<@orudge>basically, if developers here have knowledge of the internals of TTD, and reimplement certain internals in similar manners, then it may prove problematic
11:12<@orudge>dihedral: you do appear to be assuming that Marjacq would be be "happy" if we were to admit such things to them. I'm not so sure it'd be the case... they may appreciate it, but it doesn't mean they're going to condone it any more than they do now
11:12<@orudge>I also found Chris Sawyer's comment in the Locomotion manual interesting
11:12<dihedral>which was?
11:12<@orudge>where he said he finds the public's modifications and so on interesting (can't recall the exact words), but can't condone them for legal reasons
11:12<@orudge>seemed to be in conflict with some prior views of his
11:12<@orudge>(and indeed what Marjacq said)
11:14<dihedral>what do you want - openttd and people watching the progress in hope to halt development, or the devs of openttd and possibly a thankful CS
11:14<dihedral>who knows
11:14<dihedral>perhaps the results of that could become something even better than what is there now
11:15<@orudge>Well, my opinion again, but it sounds like out of the three or four potential options, three of them basically involve abandoning OpenTTD as it is now. Some users may be prepared to do that, it's not something I personally would want, even if there are potential legal challenges
11:16<@orudge>Of course, that's just my opinion
11:16<dihedral>openttd is great - i would not want that to vanish - but when i come to think about it - what makes openttd great are the people doing work on it
11:17<alex_>imk sure the revenue income of ttd stopped a long time ago for CS
11:18<alex_>now, it maybe starting back up agian with openttd
11:18<alex_>maybe CS is making money off openttd
11:18<Sacro>well... i doubt it
11:18<Sacro>nobody is still seeling TTD
11:18<@orudge>It'd help if they rereleased TTD...
11:18<@orudge>although, then
11:18<@orudge>you may argue that OpenTTD is partially in competition with TTD
11:18<dihedral>orudge: released as what
11:18<alex_>bitbyte.com could be
11:18<@orudge>although, yes, it needs the data files as present
11:18<@orudge>dihedral: for purchase
11:18<@orudge>ie, one cannot very easily go out and buy TTD
11:18<Sacro>surely when we start to use our own data files, his chance of making money gets less?
11:18<@orudge>Sacro: yes
11:19<@orudge>based on the assumption that people who use openttd buy the game
11:19<@orudge>some do
11:19<@orudge>many don't
11:19<alex_>couldnt he just take all the openttd code?
11:19<dihedral>i think their main point is that openttd stole CS's work
11:19<alex_>i mean its opensource, but he could take it, shut down the project, and sell it?
11:19<dihedral>he had an idea with the game and he seemd happy with it
11:20<dihedral>when openttd came along he saw HIS work 'vandalized'
11:20<@orudge>alex_: not as such
11:20<Sacro>we,,, extended it
11:20<dihedral>same with any other project based on his work
11:20<@orudge>besides, it'd be nigh on impossible to eradicate OpenTTD from the Internet
11:20<dihedral>orudge: beside the point :-)
11:21<@orudge>they could attempt to stop official development
11:21<@Belugas>they said the same about Napster...
11:21<@orudge>but somebody else could take the code and carry on working on it
11:21<@orudge>they'd then have to mount a new lawsuit on them
11:21<@orudge>and so on
11:21<@peter1138>napster was centralised, heh
11:21<@orudge>they'd never manage to get rid of it completely
11:22<@orudge>the other thing is, OK, they could mount a legal challenge, but unless any of us happen to have a large bank balance, they're probably not going to get very much out of it
11:22<@orudge>would it be worth the costs to mount lawsuits in various countries and so on?
11:22<dihedral>what do you want to do - what is right, and makes the author happy, and perhaps honor his work? or stick to you want to hold on to
11:22<dihedral>it is not about money
11:22<Digitalfox_Desktop>Well until some officially statement is made by CS or his agency, the project openttd should keep going normally :)
11:23<@orudge>dihedral: personally, the latter. I'm sure everyone here does appreciate Chris Sawyer's work immenseley, and if it weren't for him we wouldn't be here. Many do disagree with his notion that his game in itself is "perfect" and shouldn't be tampered with
11:23<@orudge>and so on.
11:23<@orudge>Digitalfox_Desktop: agreed
11:23<@orudge>OpenTTD may not be Chris Sawyer's "vision"
11:23<@orudge>and OK, he may not like it
11:23<Sacro>actually, i was upset when i found out how much tampering he'd done with TTO to get TTD
11:23|-|SpBot [terom@zapotekII.paivola.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
11:23<@orudge>but in a way, it's a tribute to him that there are many people still playing his games
11:23|-|SpBot [terom@zapotekII.paivola.fi] has joined #openttd
11:23<@orudge>and still enjoying his ideas and so on
11:23<Sacro>11 years on?
11:23<Sacro>12?
11:24<@orudge>If TTDPatch and OpenTTD weren't around, it's a fair bet that TTD wouldn't have half the fans it does today
11:24<@orudge>if only because the game couldn't be played on XP
11:24<Sacro>i have TTO working on dosbox
11:24<@orudge>Sacro: yes, but average joe doesn't know about dosbox
11:24<@orudge>whereas someone can probably google "transport tycoon" and find openttd a bit easier than figuring out how to set up a dos emulator :p
11:25<Sacro>no, but those who grew up with DOS will
11:25<Digitalfox_Desktop>For me this says everything: "No, neither the DOS version nor the Win95 version will run under Windows 2000 or XP. The changes required for Transport Tycoon Deluxe Win95 to run under Windows 2000/XP are probably minimal, but it's unlikely it will ever be updated unless the time and costs can be justified by potential sales and the willingness of the publisher to market an updated version."...
11:25<Digitalfox_Desktop>...So he only cares if a publisher demonstrates interest in a new publishing of TTD ...
11:25<Sacro>potential sales?
11:25<Sacro>has he not seen how many copies of OpenTTD and TTDPatch have been downloaded?
11:26<@orudge>and that's also my point about legal action. Legal action is expensive. If he can't even be bothered to market a new version, I doubt he's going to be all that bothered about mounting a lawsuit
11:26<Digitalfox_Desktop>Sacro: http://www.chrissawyer.com/faq2.htm
11:26|-|Brianetta [~brian@82-39-52-234.cable.ubr03.benw.blueyonder.co.uk] has quit [Quit: Tschüß]
11:26<@orudge>as he's not going to get much out of it
11:26<@orudge>yes, OK, the whole thing isn't about money
11:26<@orudge>there's what's "right"
11:26<@orudge>but ultimately, the potential chance of a lawsuit IS about money.
11:26<@orudge>If OpenTTD were making money, then a lawsuit would seem a lot more likely
11:27|-|scrooge [~balli@dsl-149-96-155.hive.is] has joined #openttd
11:28<Digitalfox_Desktop>But he isn't getting any real money of a lawsuit against openttd, first theres no money being made, second a court wouldn't give him millions like the one he has against atari.. But thats just my way of seeing it :)
11:28<KUDr>[18:26:50] <orudge> If OpenTTD were making money, then a lawsuit would seem a lot more likely << the same can happen if he thinks he is loosing money
11:29|-|Kejhic [~jklamo@81.31.26.224] has joined #openttd
11:29<@orudge>That as may be, but he's probably losing more by not marketing an updated version himself
11:29<Digitalfox_Desktop>In court he could only invoke less sales of ttd, but who still sells legally copys of ttd??
11:29<@orudge>you can find a few seconds hand copies on eBay, Amazon, etc
11:29<@orudge>but of course, it's not on general release as such
11:29<Digitalfox_Desktop>But are they legally sellede by companys or stores or personal copys used?
11:29<guru3>Digitalfox_Desktop: i found one in the last two years
11:29<Digitalfox_Desktop>*selled
11:30<Sacro>KUDr: but if he has lost money to due to not having XP compatibilty, then that's his issue?
11:30<KUDr>can be not only TTD but others (locomotion?)
11:30<KUDr>if ottd is playable and better
11:30<KUDr>he can lose money
11:30<dihedral>fact is that they aint happy with any of the projects, and that they are more than aware of them
11:31<KUDr>or any new product he is thinking about
11:31<Sacro>if CS brought out an updated Transport Tycoon, i'd buy it
11:31<KUDr>simply "if you can eliminate the competition before entering the market, do it"
11:31<Digitalfox_Desktop>Well to me, keep the good development that has been made in openttd.. And wait for something officially declared by cs ( witch i believe will never happen )..
11:31<@orudge>dihedral: this is something we've basically known for ages though
11:31<@orudge>Chris Sawyer himself expressed his dislike of TTDPatch back in 1999 or so
11:32<@orudge>so it's hardly surprising that the same is true of OpenTTD
11:32<dihedral>you have a link?
11:32<@orudge>one sec
11:32<KUDr>and we can use new data files of it and tell users "if you want to play ottd, buy this one first"
11:32<Digitalfox_Desktop>Well the patch is in the same route has openttd.. Because it alters the game also.. So if patch devs don't stop why should openttd?
11:32<Sacro>if he wants to make money
11:32<KUDr>in the worst case this can be the result of his legal effort
11:32<Sacro>why doesn't he purchase a server, and sell the needed data files
11:32<KUDr>he will want to make money from our work
11:33<Sacro>then we could say, "if you need the data files, CS has them available here for $xxx"
11:33<KUDr>yes, he can
11:33<KUDr>but needs support from us
11:33<KUDr>to tell users "you must"
11:33<dihedral>the data files are also not the point
11:33|-|Phazorx [PACO@CPE0011d8690c25-CM001225db7ae8.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
11:33<@orudge>hmmm
11:33<@orudge>http://groups.google.com/group/alt.games.rctycoon/browse_frm/thread/b588592a7d934935/5348a3c0934bbd51?lnk=st&q=chris+sawyer+opinion&rnum=4#5348a3c0934bbd51 is one of the threads
11:33<@orudge>I have a feeling there was another
11:34<Sacro>haha, i like how he put, "it was from Him"
11:34<Sacro>oh, but it's a german... so it may be capitlised by their rules
11:34<@orudge>Sacro: Josef has a pretty good grasp of English
11:34<@orudge>so I don't really think it was that
11:35<Kejhic>hmm, i found bug in nigtly with tram and tunnel, anybody know about it?
11:37<Sacro>haha, i love his sig
11:37<@orudge>Sacro is a newbie, I guess, he was never on AGMTT, was he?
11:37<Sacro>:o
11:37<Sacro>actually, i think i did go on it a couple of times
11:38<Sacro>orudge: by the way, i am older than you :p
11:39<@orudge>Yes
11:39<@orudge>but it doesn't mean you've been around in the TT world for longer than me :p
11:39<Sacro>well i got TTO back in... beginning of 96 i think
11:39<@orudge>but when did you first join the TT community as such? :p
11:40|-|BobingAbout [~BobingAbo@adsl-87-102-41-110.karoo.KCOM.COM] has joined #openttd
11:40<Sacro>BobingAbout!
11:40<BobingAbout>Sacro!
11:41<Sacro>orudge: err... i've been visitng tt-forums on and off for years
11:41<@orudge>another Hullian D:
11:41<@orudge>:p
11:41<Sacro>i do remember the church of tt
11:41<@orudge>Sacro: yes, but before tt-forums existed? ;)
11:41|-|scia [~scia@85.149.96.102] has joined #openttd
11:41<Sacro>err...
11:41<Sacro>i think i went on the usenet group
11:41<@orudge>anyway
11:41[~]orudge is hungry
11:41[~]orudge shall get food soon probably
11:41<BobingAbout>FOOD
11:41<Sacro>orudge: tesco have maryland cookies on bogof
11:41<@orudge>BOG OFF.
11:43|-|Phazorx [PACO@CPE0011d8690c25-CM001225db7ae8.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #openttd
11:44<Ammler>!logs
11:44<SpComb>Logs: http://spbot.marttila.de:8120/logs/oftc-ottd (old: http://zapotek.paivola.fi/~terom/logs/openttd )
11:46<SpComb>new and upgraded, now with a help system, and some text nagging you to register!
11:46|-|skidd13 changed nick to skidd13|dinner
11:46<Sacro>SpComb: you still can't talk through it though
11:47<SpComb>a design decision
11:48<@orudge>SpBot: you also can't search by date
11:48<@orudge>as far as I can see?
11:49<SpComb>search by date?
11:49<@orudge>well
11:49<@orudge>in the old logs, you can specify how many days to search
11:49<@orudge>eg, 1, 2, 5, 60, etc
11:49<SpComb>there's a list of dates, but not in the search thing
11:49<@orudge>you can't in this one
11:49<BobingAbout>...
11:49<SpComb>indeed, some kind of limiting as to the results returned is needed
11:49<@orudge>it'd also be nice if it showed more than 10 lines, although I guess that's a preference thing
11:49<SpComb>that, and Alt-PageUp
11:49<@orudge>ah, yes
11:49<SpComb>as the help file now says
11:50<Prof_Frink>SpComb: Wow, that's actually pretty awesome
11:50<@orudge>also, tis just plain Page Up in Firefox, as far as I can see
11:50<@orudge>(on Windows)
11:50<SpComb>PageUp just scrolls, Alt-PageUp grows
11:50<@orudge>Ah
11:50<SpComb>Prof_Frink: which part, or is it just the first time you looked at them? :P
11:50<@orudge>so it does
11:50<Prof_Frink>First time
11:51|-|BobingAbout [~BobingAbo@adsl-87-102-41-110.karoo.KCOM.COM] has left #openttd []
11:51<SpComb>I clearly need to spam more about SpBot
11:51<SpComb>and the scrolling is in the same category as the search-limiting
11:51<@orudge>Is there any way of it having an option just to dump the whole log though, in a manner similar to the old logs?
11:51<@orudge>ie, without the fancy interface
11:51<@orudge>I guess for that one would just use the old logs...
11:51<@orudge>it's easier to search through manually and so on, in a way
11:51<@orudge>than using the new interface
11:52<@orudge>(which is nice, by the way)
11:52<SpComb>there used to be a show-all-logs-for-day, but I removed that
11:52<SpComb>setting a large value for height and scroll speed in preferences, and then use that? :P
11:52<@orudge>:P
11:52<@orudge>Anyway, food, really
11:56|-|scia [~scia@85.149.96.102] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal]
11:56|-|Sedontane [~sedontane@89.240.232.200] has joined #openttd
11:57|-|Sedontane [~sedontane@89.240.232.200] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
11:57|-|Sedontane [~sedontane@89.240.232.200] has joined #openttd
11:57<SmatZ>when I quit the game (using Ctrl+Q) while the End-of-the-game screen is displayed, the game segfaults
11:58<Sacro>SmatZ: don't do it then :p
11:58<SmatZ>Sacro: ahhh, great solution :)))
11:59<SmatZ>another strange thing - when somebody connects while the server is paused, the text 'Player connected, unpausing' is displayed, though the game remains paused
11:59|-|Wolf01 [~wolf01@host240-236-dynamic.9-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #openttd
11:59<Wolf01>hello
11:59<SmatZ>these are so small problems that opening a bug report is too much :)
11:59<SmatZ>Wolf01: hello
12:00|-|skidd13|dinner changed nick to skidd13
12:00<Sacro>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XC73PHdQX04
12:02<@orudge>spammar
12:02<Wolf01>seem that today i have a real bug for you: the industry list sorts for English strings, not for translated strings, so if i want to sort by name it sorts by the city name, not for industry name, for cargo is the same, it sorts for English cargo name :/
12:09|-|Kejhic [~jklamo@81.31.26.224] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
12:09<Maedhros>/* Sort by Name (handled later) */
12:09<Maedhros>;)
12:10<Maedhros>i don't know what it's doing in the gui if it doesn't actually work though...
12:10<Wolf01>nice to know it :)
12:14<dihedral>http://www.break.com/index/roommate-cereal-prank.html
12:15<dihedral>http://www.break.com/index/the-assumption-song.html << this is even better
12:21|-|Sedontane [~sedontane@89.240.232.200] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
12:21|-|HMage [Queneex@hmage.dialup.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
12:28|-|skidd13 [~skidd13@p548A7B5D.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #openttd []
12:32|-|Ailure [Gamefreak@194.47.44.201] has joined #openttd
12:37|-|HMage [HMage@hmage.dialup.corbina.ru] has joined #openttd
12:39|-|Purno [~Purno@5357D37C.cable.casema.nl] has joined #openttd
12:48|-|skidd13 [~skidd13@p548A7B5D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd
12:48|-|skidd13 [~skidd13@p548A7B5D.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #openttd []
12:49<SmatZ>about the FS#1016
12:49<SmatZ>"Additional comments about closing: Although the sample.cat might be questionnable, the graphic files are required, if only for the dimensions of the trains, which is used for colision detection"
12:50<SmatZ>it is not used atm (in my opinion), there is a hardwired value - distance of < 6 in any direction -> crash
12:50<SmatZ>train_cmd.cpp - myabs(v->x_pos - tcc->v->x_pos) < 6
12:52<Rubidium>hmm, bad reason, though the graphics files are required in some non-drawing areas
12:53|-|scia [~scia@85.149.96.102] has joined #openttd
12:58<SmatZ>ok :) just to make sure the collision detection this way is correct
13:08|-|iPandaMojo [~panda@c-67-183-223-161.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #openttd
13:08|-|iPandaMojo [~panda@c-67-183-223-161.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit []
13:15<hylje>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yXXFZCsuQPk
13:19<Ammler>oh man, won't end...
13:22|-|Strid [~Strid@83.216.101.80] has joined #openttd
13:31|-|Sacro [~ben@adsl-87-102-80-216.karoo.KCOM.COM] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
13:33|-|Sacro|Laptop [~Ben@adsl-87-102-80-216.karoo.KCOM.COM] has joined #openttd
13:33<SmatZ>how many engines are there in that train?
13:33<hylje>3 in front, 2 in the end
13:34<SmatZ>and I though my trains in OTTD are unrealistic long :)
13:36<hylje>ottd doesnt support facilities necessary for OMG HUEG trains
13:36<hylje>say, rearranging a few trains to be one big one outside (or even inside) a depot
13:38<SmatZ>:)
13:39<hylje>also, rolling load/unload
13:46<Ammler>sounds like a good idea for a patch
13:48<Smoovious><ln-> Gekko[PDA]: ludde himself has said he has done reverse engineering. <--- (yeah I know its old) but he wasn't bound by US laws... anyone know what the relevant laws on reverse engineering are in Sweden?
13:50<Eddi|zuHause>since when is this about US law? i thought CS was british...
13:51<Caemyr>hmm
13:51<Caemyr>i can ask one guy right now
13:51<Caemyr>wait
13:51<@orudge>Chris Sawyer is British, and Marjacq is based in the UK
13:53<dihedral>Smoovious: if there is money for a lawyer - get him to find out
13:53|-|Sacro [~Ben@adsl-87-102-80-216.karoo.KCOM.COM] has joined #openttd
13:54|-|Sacro [~Ben@adsl-87-102-80-216.karoo.KCOM.COM] has quit []
13:54<dihedral>and after thinking for some time i must agree with orudge: the longer marjacq is taking, the less chance they have on doing anything! code in trunk is moving forward in ways that will not really allow to show where it came from
13:54<Eddi|zuHause>also, it is not about what the laws are, but what they were 3(?) years ago when the alleged reverse engineering took place
13:55<@orudge>well
13:55<@orudge>the reverse engineering took place in Sweden
13:55<dihedral>the fact that ttd's game data is used is not enough to prove reverse engeneering was done
13:55<@orudge>that may or may not make a difference, too
13:55<Sacro|Laptop>well yes
13:56<Sacro|Laptop>its a similar situation to thepiratebay
13:56<dihedral>though it would be nice to have a better solution - i.e. some agreement with marjacq
13:56<@orudge>It'd be nice
13:56<Eddi|zuHause>what's the situation anyway, they have to prove that we did reverse engineer, not we have to prove that we did not
13:56<Sacro|Laptop>they keep getting letters pointing out how they are illegal under "US Federal Law"
13:56<@orudge>but unfortunately, Marjacq's goals don't really match our own, ultimately
13:56<Sacro|Laptop>and they reply "Yes, but Sweden isn't part of the US"
13:56<Sacro|Laptop>Eddi|zuHause: theoretically, innocent until proven guitly
13:56<Sacro|Laptop>*guilty
13:57<Eddi|zuHause>i'm not sure if the comparison with tpb is a really good one in front of a court :p
13:58<Caemyr>depends in which country:)
13:58<Caemyr>not in the USA:P
13:58<Caemyr>that`s for surr
13:58<Caemyr>sure
13:58<Caemyr>CS needs to get a grip on reality
13:58<Maedhros>err, what?
13:59<Eddi|zuHause>also, if something is legal in one country, and illegal in another, there is the question if exporting that something to the other country is legal
13:59<Caemyr>if not the TTDpatch/OpenTDD, no one would remember him right now
13:59<Eddi|zuHause>Caemyr: i think you are completely missing the point
14:00<Caemyr>it`s like Baldurs Gate devs would bitch on the community, for creating the mods
14:00<@orudge>[19:56:39] <Sacro|Laptop> and they reply "Yes, but Sweden isn't part of the US" <-- didn't stop the US managing to extradite an Australian who had never set foot in the US
14:00<Caemyr>Australia is a funny country
14:00<Sacro|Laptop>orudge: true...
14:00<Sacro|Laptop>you reckon that sweden would send ludde here?
14:00<Sacro|Laptop>i doubt that
14:00<Caemyr>has the hardest copyright laws
14:00<Caemyr>they are more strict than USA
14:01<dihedral>orudge: buying permission :-)
14:01<@orudge>Sacro|Laptop: doubt it, but just saying ;)
14:02|-|Lone [~Woody@a194-109-235-84.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd
14:02<Caemyr>and btw on ReactOS, the audit happened only because that hoax got out
14:03<Caemyr>about presumable leaked code
14:03<Maedhros>that's still not the point
14:03<Caemyr>Ms havent done or comment about ROS yet
14:04<Caemyr>whereas for example, the Longhorn project got busted really soon
14:05<Sacro|Laptop>did it?
14:05|-|Digitalfox_Desktop [~Digitalfo@bl7-182-93.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Bye]
14:05<Caemyr>they got C&D
14:05|-|lolman [~John@cpc3-leds2-0-0-cust55.leed.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
14:05<Sacro|Laptop>Firefox can't find the server at longhorn-reloaded.org. D:
14:05<Caemyr>and dropped it
14:05<Sacro|Laptop>i was gonna try running it
14:05<Caemyr>this was stolen code
14:06<Caemyr>binaries
14:06<Caemyr>to be exact
14:06<Caemyr>I`m just trying to say that CS would act againt the project if he wanted to
14:07<Caemyr>you either act, or dont act. Threatening to act shows your weakness.
14:10<Caemyr>my only hope is that you guys wont drop this project just because CS is smirking his nose
14:10<Caemyr>bbl
14:12|-|smoovi [~smoovi@dslb-088-073-074-048.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd
14:15|-|lolman [~lolman@cpc3-leds2-0-0-cust55.leed.cable.ntl.com] has joined #openttd
14:30|-|Purno [~Purno@5357D37C.cable.casema.nl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
14:33<izhirahider>where do I choose this primary industry prospection thing?
14:34<izhirahider>I can't seem to find it in the patches section (in svn)
14:35|-|Digitalfox [~Digitalfo@bl7-182-93.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #openttd
14:36<SmatZ>izhirahider: in the Economy section of patches
14:37<SmatZ>there is something like 'Primary indutry construction style'
14:37<Digitalfox>Is this by design or bug??
14:37<Digitalfox>http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v514/Digitalfox/?action=view¤t=FortFronninghallTransport1stFeb2030.png
14:38<Digitalfox>When building 4 airbus 380 with planeset newgrf, i have two normal ones and 2 strange ones
14:38<hylje>its likely a bug
14:38<Digitalfox>Like if they were using old sprites from original graphics
14:39<Rubidium>well, it's more likely that those aircraft are built with another livery
14:39<Digitalfox>Hum.. I will create a bug report
14:39<Digitalfox>but they the use the normal livery of passengers.. I just clicked 4 times
14:40<Rubidium>newgrfs can change the livery on build too (IIRC)
14:40<@Belugas>SmatZ, IIRC, 2nd option of Economy tab on configuration patches
14:41<izhirahider>Belugas, SmatZ, thanks
14:41<izhirahider>I wasn't recognizing my own translation :)
14:42<@peter1138>Digitalfox: it's by design
14:42<@peter1138>as you'll know if you read the readme
14:43<Digitalfox>peter1138: But when i chose to reffit and try all possibilities i never get those graphics
14:43<@peter1138>yes
14:45<Digitalfox>Well, ok... But in my opinion it's a strange by design.. Because i wanted all my 380 to look like the minishot :\
14:45<@peter1138>sell the dodgy ones and buy new ones
14:45|-|Thomas[NL] [~thomas@vdburgt.xs4all.nl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
14:45<@peter1138>it's randomised
14:45|-|Thomas[NL] [~thomas@vdburgt.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd
14:45<hylje>:o?
14:46<hylje>what why
14:46<@peter1138>oh, and it's the design of the planeset, nothing to do with ottd
14:46<Digitalfox>They still appear the same in the same slots
14:46<@peter1138>ö
14:46<hylje>ö
14:46<Digitalfox>yeah ok
14:46<Digitalfox>I'll talk to dalestan.. Oh boy it's going to be a hard task
14:46<@peter1138>if you read the readme it will tell you which parameters control that behaviour
14:46|-|Wolf01 changed nick to Guest942
14:46|-|Wolf01 [~wolf01@host240-236-dynamic.9-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #openttd
14:46|-|Wolf01 changed nick to Guest943
14:46|-|Wolf01 [~wolf01@host240-236-dynamic.9-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #openttd
14:46|-|Guest943 [~wolf01@host240-236-dynamic.9-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit []
14:47<Digitalfox>oh ok.. I'll read, thank god no talk..
14:47|-|mode/#openttd [-b *!*De_Ghost@*.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] by peter1138
14:47|-|mode/#openttd [-b *!*gekko@*.ed.shawcable.net] by peter1138
14:48<Sacro|Laptop>hehe
14:49|-|Guest942 [~wolf01@host240-236-dynamic.9-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out]
14:49|-|Wolf01 [~wolf01@host240-236-dynamic.9-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit []
14:54|-|NukeBuster [~opera@a62-251-21-79.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd
14:55[~]Smoovious is finally in realtime.
14:56<Eddi|zuHause>time now is 21:56
14:56<Eddi|zuHause>are you there yet? :p
14:56|-|NukeBuster [~opera@a62-251-21-79.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
14:56|-|NukeBuster [~opera@a62-251-21-79.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd
14:57<dihedral>good night ladies :-)
14:58|-|Wolf01 [~wolf01@host240-236-dynamic.9-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #openttd
14:58|-|dihedral [~dihedral@dslb-084-056-209-131.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.78.1 [Firefox 2.0.0.4/2007051502]]
14:59|-|KritiK [Maxim@ppp85-141-227-187.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #openttd
14:59<Smoovious>nope... just caught up so the timestamp over there <-- matches the clock over there -->
15:00<Smoovious>well... as far as a 24-hour clock with seconds, can match up with a 12-hour clock without seconds can, anyways
15:01<Prof_Frink>Smoovious: Is your clock only accurate twice a day?
15:01<elmz>24h w/sec ftw :P
15:01|-|scia [~scia@85.149.96.102] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal]
15:02<Prof_Frink>elmz: Pah, unixtime
15:02<elmz>haha, ok, have to admit, much cooler
15:08<Prof_Frink>Or, binary clock
15:19<elmz>binary unix time :P
15:22|-|Zr40 [~Zr40@zr40.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd
15:25<hylje>Prof_Frink: the clock is either 1 or 0?
15:34|-||Jeroen| [~jeroen@d51A43614.access.telenet.be] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
15:35<Biff>hylje: 01000110100100111110110101111011
15:35<Biff>like that
15:35<hylje>i see
15:35<Biff>try: perl -e 'print unpack("B*", pack("N",time()))'
15:36<Eddi|zuHause>my maths teacher had a binary watch ;)
15:36<Eddi|zuHause>it displayed hours, minutes and seconds in binary :)
15:44|-|Zr40 [~Zr40@zr40.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
15:45|-|Zr40 [~zr40@zr40.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd
15:46|-|Peakki [antti@cs181000195.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: Lähdössä]
15:47<hylje>increase max player count pls
15:47|-|Zr40 [~zr40@zr40.xs4all.nl] has quit []
15:48|-|Zr40 [~zr40@zr40.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd
15:49<Eddi|zuHause>demand and ye shall ...
16:00<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r10500 /trunk/src/network/network_gui.cpp: -Fix [FS#1007]: cannot navigate using arrow keys in the game name text box. Patch by benc.
16:00<hylje>:o
16:00<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r10501 /trunk/src/ (6 files in 3 dirs): -Fix [FS#1015]: error dialog was sometimes shown on all clients when a command failed instead of only the client that actually did the command.
16:01|-|Sacro|Laptop [~Ben@adsl-87-102-80-216.karoo.KCOM.COM] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
16:03<MUcht>again, the feature of having > 10 clients on our server is highly desirable
16:07|-|Osai [~Osai@pD9EB7E78.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Osai]
16:16|-|elmex [~elmex@e180065205.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
16:22<caladan>Eddi|zuHause: I once build a binary clock, now im thinking of building my own watch. It's really matter of saving power
16:31|-|Wolf01 [~wolf01@host240-236-dynamic.9-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.]
16:36<ln->does there happen to be a library for drawing and handling isometric terrains?
16:38<Ailure>[22:56] <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r10501 /trunk/src/ (6 files in 3 dirs): -Fix [FS#1015]: error dialog was sometimes shown on all clients when a command failed instead of only the client that actually did the command.
16:38<Ailure>hah
16:38<Ailure>and I thought that was a feature
16:38<Ailure>D:
16:40<Eddi|zuHause>most "isometric" views are not really isometric anyway
16:42<Eddi|zuHause>isometric view is based on an angle of 30° (=arcsin(1/2)), but for pixel based views, an angle of ~26.5°(=arctan(1/2)) is easier to implement
16:43<ln->hmm, ok.
16:43<Ailure>heh
16:43<ln->so does there happen to be a library for drawing and handling arctan(1/2) terrains?
16:43<Ailure>and with real isometric view
16:43<Ailure>a cube sides is as large
16:44|-|Zavior [~Zavior@d195-237-7-209.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #openttd
16:44<Caemyr>btw
16:44<Ailure>assuming the cube is of a x*x*x size
16:44<Caemyr>swedish laws allow reverse engineering
16:44<Ailure>yes I belive so
16:44<Caemyr>without any special restrictions
16:44|-|smoovi [~smoovi@dslb-088-073-074-048.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
16:44<Caemyr>if only it doesnt lead to breaking copyrights
16:46<ln->in this case it did.
16:50<Caemyr>what was the name of that swedish guy
16:50<Caemyr>that did the disassembly?
16:50<Caemyr>if this is not a secret?:)
16:51|-|helb [~helb@84.244.90.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:51<Smoovious>ludde
16:51<SmatZ>Caemyr: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?t=6559
16:51<Caemyr>thank you
16:51|-|MarkMc [~hestporr@h51n6c1o1114.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #openttd
16:51<ln->http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludvig_Strigeus
16:54|-|Zr40 [~zr40@zr40.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: Zr40]
16:58<Ailure>heh
16:59<Ailure>Ludde dosen't really ive that far away from me if wikipedia is right about his location
16:59<Ailure>although he hadn't been active for years in the openTTD project and is mostly working on uTorrent
17:00|-|TinoM [~Tino@i5387C749.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
17:00<Ailure>hmm
17:00<Ailure>there's a lack of a swedish flag for languages ;)
17:00<Eddi|zuHause>i think he showed up here a while ago... telling something about renewing the domain name or something
17:00<Smoovious>he's past µTorrent... he's involving himsellf in a music service now
17:00<Ailure>ah
17:00<Ailure>sounds like the type of guy who works on a project for a bit then drops it for something else
17:01<Ailure>which I probabl will do eventually :p
17:01<Smoovious>well... that's the way it is for lots of programmers... if you're able to work on things that interest you, you wander
17:01<Ailure>yeah
17:02<Ailure>I found myself like
17:02<Ailure>picking up a project rather fast
17:02<Ailure>write lots of nice code
17:02<Ailure>then lose intrest and stop
17:02<Smoovious>yeah
17:02<Smoovious>I got so many unfinished things on my computers its rediculous
17:03<Ailure>same
17:03<Ailure>You should see the number of unfinished projects I have too
17:03<Ailure>Sometimes it dosen't even go out of planning stage
17:03<Ailure>and it's just a prototype showing off something
17:04|-|Osai [~Osai@pD9EB7E78.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd
17:11|-|Thomas[NL] [~thomas@vdburgt.xs4all.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:11<Smoovious>um... question about that tt-forums link... what is TTU?
17:12|-|iPandaMojo [~panda@c-67-183-223-161.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #openttd
17:17|-|valhallasw changed nick to valhallasw`dour
17:18|-|DeGhosty [~c4command@CPE0050ba8caf2c-CM0011aec4b06a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #openttd
17:18<DeGhosty>i found a bug!!
17:18<DeGhosty>when your train have 100 engins
17:18<DeGhosty>max speed is 4
17:18<DeGhosty>km/h
17:21|-|Zr40 [~zr40@zr40.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd
17:23|-|prakti [~prakti@port-213-148-152-8.static.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:23|-|Gekko [~Brendan@CPE-124-183-85-6.nsw.bigpond.net.au] has joined #openttd
17:25<Smoovious>...
17:26|-|flex_ [flex@194.23.101.56] has joined #openttd
17:26|-|flex [flex@194.23.101.56] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:30|-|Eddi|zuHause2 [~johekr@p54B75DD9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd
17:32|-|DeGhosty [~c4command@CPE0050ba8caf2c-CM0011aec4b06a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:33|-|DeGhosty [~c4command@CPE0050ba8caf2c-CM0011aec4b06a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #openttd
17:37|-|Zr40 [~zr40@zr40.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep]
17:38|-|Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B770AF.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:40|-|Lone [~Woody@a194-109-235-84.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: Ik ga weg]
17:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r10502 /trunk/src/road_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#1017]: trying to get the town from a tile that can never be associated with a town.
17:47|-|strstrep [brigad@ip68-9-207-179.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #openttd
17:50|-|Xaroth [~503c1f52@207.250.49.25] has joined #openttd
17:52<Caemyr>btw about ReactOS
17:52<Caemyr>http://www.apiviewer.de/downloads/halo2.png
17:52<Caemyr>:)
17:52<Gekko>lol
17:52<Gekko>cool
17:53<Xaroth>o_O been a while since i last dragged my butt in here
17:58<Eddi|zuHause2>looks a little quirky
17:59|-|TinoDidriksen [~projectjj@users.kollegienet.dk] has joined #openttd
18:02|-|mikk36[EST] [~mikk36@pc90.host7.starman.ee] has joined #openttd
18:05|-|Jezral [~projectjj@users.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:08|-|mikk36 [~mikk36@pc90.host7.starman.ee] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:09|-|Eddi|zuHause2 [~johekr@p54B75DD9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!]
18:11|-|Nickman^Away [~nn@d54C1C327.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: ( www.nnscript.de :: NoNameScript 4.02 :: www.XLhost.de )]
18:12|-|Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B74D9A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd
18:13|-|Vikthor [~Vikthor@snat1.spoje.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
18:15|-|Sacro [Ben@adsl-87-102-80-216.karoo.KCOM.COM] has joined #openttd
18:24|-|Sacro|Laptop [~Ben@adsl-87-102-80-216.karoo.KCOM.COM] has joined #openttd
18:24|-|Maedhros [~jc@i-195-137-43-74.freedom2surf.net] has quit [Quit: good night]
18:39|-|Osai changed nick to Osai^zZz
18:39|-|Progman [~progman@p57A1D838.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
18:57|-|iPandaMojo [~panda@c-67-183-223-161.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: iPandaMojo]
19:07|-|NW|Aerandir [magic.powe@90-230-201-111-no37.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #openttd
19:07|-|RamboRonny [magic.powe@90-230-201-111-no37.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
19:12|-|Osai^zZz [~Osai@pD9EB7E78.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Osai^zZz]
19:20|-|RamboRonny [magic.powe@90-230-201-111-no37.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #openttd
19:20|-|NW|Aerandir [magic.powe@90-230-201-111-no37.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
19:26|-|ThePizzaKing [~jeff@c211-28-160-16.eburwd2.vic.optusnet.com.au] has joined #openttd
19:34|-|XeryusTC [~irc@cc480157-b.sneek1.fr.home.nl] has quit [Quit: Solong, and thanks for all the fish.]
19:36<CIA-1>OpenTTD: belugas * r10503 /trunk/src/newgrf_callbacks.h: -Codechange: Mark Callback CBID_INDUSTRY_FUND_MORE_TEXT (cb38) as implemented.
19:45|-|iPandaMojo [~panda@c-67-183-223-161.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #openttd
19:48|-|iPandaMojo [~panda@c-67-183-223-161.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has left #openttd []
19:49|-|KritiK [Maxim@ppp85-141-227-187.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
19:56|-|RamboRonny [magic.powe@90-230-201-111-no37.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Quit: - nbs-irc 2.3 - www.nbs-irc.net -]
19:57|-|Xaroth [~503c1f52@207.250.49.25] has quit [Quit: CGI:IRC (Ping timeout)]
19:58|-|Digitalfox [~Digitalfo@bl7-182-93.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Leaving this computer]
20:01|-|NW|Aerandir [magic.powe@90-230-201-111-no37.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #openttd
20:17|-|Digitalfox [~chatzilla@bl7-182-93.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #openttd
20:33|-|Sacro [Ben@adsl-87-102-80-216.karoo.KCOM.COM] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
20:33|-|Sacro [~Ben@adsl-87-102-80-216.karoo.KCOM.COM] has joined #openttd
20:39|-|scrooge [~balli@dsl-149-96-155.hive.is] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!]
20:39|-|NW|Aerandir [magic.powe@90-230-201-111-no37.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20:46<CIA-1>OpenTTD: belugas * r10504 /trunk/src/town_cmd.cpp: -Codechange: Shorten the test if no track bit has been found
20:47|-|SmatZ [~smatz@a40-prg1-5-107.static.adsl.vol.cz] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!]
20:47<Eddi|zuHause>what exactly do track bits have to do with industries?
20:47<@Belugas>lol
20:48<@Belugas>who said that r10504 had to do anything wint industries ? :D
20:48<Eddi|zuHause>well, you said you do not touch any code that does not have to do with industries until you are finished :)
20:48<@Belugas>i did, true :)
20:48<@Belugas>good memory
20:48<Eddi|zuHause>my memory is good only with unimportant things :p
20:49<@Belugas>let's say i wanted to see if i could fix FS1018 easily. AS i followed the code, in debug, i found out that the test was not really usefull once there is no trackbit found...
20:50|-|iPandaMojo [~panda@c-67-183-223-161.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #openttd
20:53<Caemyr>then it can be called an optimisation
20:53<Caemyr>:)
20:57<@Belugas>i wonder if some would call it optimization ;)
21:03|-|Gekko [~Brendan@CPE-124-183-85-6.nsw.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Quit: Changing server...]
21:03|-|Gekko [~Brendan@CPE-124-183-85-6.nsw.bigpond.net.au] has joined #openttd
21:07|-|lolman [~lolman@cpc3-leds2-0-0-cust55.leed.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
21:13<CIA-1>OpenTTD: belugas * r10505 /trunk/src/town_cmd.cpp: -Fix(r10249)[FS#1016]: Town was still trying to gather information for tiles on which it could not build. aising the values to 2 will prevent further invasion of the water-at-the-edge :)
21:21|-|glx [glx@bny93-6-82-245-156-124.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: bye]
21:22<Smoovious>does the oneway.grf include just the graphic overlay for the direction markers, or does it include roadbed too?
21:23<Smoovious>(I ask cuz it doesn't seem to work with TTRS)
21:24<Smoovious>invasion of the water-at-the-edge?
21:26|-|DeGhosty [~c4command@CPE0050ba8caf2c-CM0011aec4b06a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
21:26|-|DeGhosty [~c4command@CPE0050ba8caf2c-CM0011aec4b06a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #openttd
21:38|-|Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B74D9A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!]
21:42|-|Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B74FE0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd
21:46|-|NukeBuster [~opera@a62-251-21-79.adsl.xs4all.nl] has left #openttd []
21:54|-|iPandaMojo [~panda@c-67-183-223-161.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: iPandaMojo]
22:03|-|Sacro|Laptop [~Ben@adsl-87-102-80-216.karoo.KCOM.COM] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
22:04|-|Sacro [~Ben@adsl-87-102-80-216.karoo.KCOM.COM] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
22:06|-|Ammller [~Ammler@adsl-89-217-150-8.adslplus.ch] has joined #openttd
22:10|-|Ammler [~Ammler@adsl-62-167-60-239.adslplus.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
22:32|-|Ammller [~Ammler@adsl-89-217-150-8.adslplus.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
23:03|-|De_Ghosty [~c4command@CPE0050ba8caf2c-CM0011aec4b06a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #openttd
23:08|-|DeGhosty [~c4command@CPE0050ba8caf2c-CM0011aec4b06a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
23:24|-|helb [~helb@84.244.90.159] has joined #openttd
23:45|-|Osai^zZz [~Osai@pD9EB56B9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd
23:48|-|Gekko [~Brendan@CPE-124-183-85-6.nsw.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 3.2.6 Anomalies http://www.kvirc.net/]
---Logclosed Wed Jul 11 00:00:27 2007