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#openttd IRC Logs for 2007-07-17

---Logopened Tue Jul 17 00:00:43 2007
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01:47<olol>lol
01:47<olol>hey
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01:56<CIA-1>OpenTTD: peter1138 * r10603 /trunk/src/ (build_vehicle_gui.cpp roadveh_gui.cpp vehicle.cpp): -Codechange: avoid direct access to _engine_info
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03:19<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r10604 /trunk/src/table/build_industry.h: -Fix [FS#1044] (r9866): some industries produced cargo they should not be producing, which would result in the industry offering invalid cargo to a station resulting in crashes..
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05:21<Nickman>For some reason the newer nightlies (r10559 for example) runs very slow on my computer...
05:21<Nickman>even the starting screen
05:22<Nickman>but the NoAi branch (r10582) is running very smooth
05:22<Nickman>what could be causing this?
05:24<Eddi|zuHause>made an unoptimised/debug build?
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05:27<Nickman>downloaded the nightlies from the site so...
05:28<Rubidium>what nightly exactly? (OS)
05:28<Nickman>Win32
05:28<Nickman>On vista
05:28<Nickman>used to work fine before so...
05:29<Eddi|zuHause>what if you compile yourself?
05:29<Eddi|zuHause>(e.g. with buildottd)
05:31<Rubidium>maybe his nightly uses (for some reason unknown to me) SDL instead of GDI
05:31<Nickman>what you mean Rubidium?
05:31<Nickman>I'll compile my own version from trunk, lets see
05:31<Rubidium>if you start the nightly with openttd -v gdi (or -v win32) don't know exactly, does it perform better?
05:32<Nickman>I'll try
05:32<Nickman>omg, I found it :D, stupid me
05:32<Nickman>I had the 32 bit blitter activated in my shortcut
05:32<Nickman>I forgot all about that :D
05:33<Nickman>it makes the game run pretty slow while it doesn't need to do anything :p
05:33<Nickman>wierd
05:33<Nickman>thanks anyway for the help guys!
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09:01<Eddi|zuHause>the new monitor is great :)
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09:06<Adriaan>hey
09:07<Adriaan>i dont know if this is a known way
09:07<alex_>ok
09:07<Adriaan>but if you want to bypass the city reglements
09:07<Adriaan>aka you cannot build in that city
09:07<Adriaan>i just plant extremely much trees around the city
09:07<Adriaan>and then build the station/whatever in these trees
09:07<Adriaan>the city doesnt complain then
09:08<Adriaan>someone experienced the same?
09:08<@Belugas>it is indeed a known way :)
09:08<Adriaan>ah cool :)
09:09<@Belugas>congratulations of finding it on your own :)
09:09<Adriaan>haha thanks
09:09<Adriaan>are there other suck hacks?
09:10<Adriaan>*such
09:10<Adriaan>heh
09:11<Digitalfox_Desktop>The unrealistic way, is that if destroy every tree in a town and build the same number you get more good reputation, but it's also true in real life that a company that invests in nature also gets good reputation in local or national authorities :)
09:11<@Belugas>not really a hack, by the way. Just a means to appeal the city
09:12<@peter1138>cities like trees
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09:30<Eddi|zuHause>i have a suggestion regarding that, if rating is too low, disallow removing trees!
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09:31<hylje>:>
09:31<Eddi|zuHause>(i.e. if you want to remove a tree, you have to plant one elsewhere
09:31<Eddi|zuHause>)
09:31<DeGhosty>lol
09:31<alex_>thats stupid
09:31<DeGhosty>agree
09:32<Eddi|zuHause>no it's not
09:32<alex_>im not going to build fucking tress everywhr
09:32<alex_>this is openttdf
09:32<alex_>not open-build-a-garden
09:32<Eddi|zuHause>it removes the cheat that you can cut trees at the lowest rating, which is "for free"
09:32<Eddi|zuHause>and then build new trees geting more reputation than you ever had before
09:33<DeGhosty>that's poor man's trick
09:33<DeGhosty>what's wrong with thaT?
09:33<DeGhosty>you don't have to do it if you don' want :)
09:33<Eddi|zuHause>it's a cheat that totally undermines the whole reputation system
09:34<Eddi|zuHause>make a real cheat "ignore town ratings", and balance the system
09:34<JazzyJaffa>Hi, Is there any easy was to find out if an MP_STATION tile is the water end of a dock?
09:35<Eddi|zuHause>JazzyJaffa: richk is messing around with stations currently
09:36<JazzyJaffa>I know there are plans afoot to make docks have queues etc
09:36<JazzyJaffa>pretty cool
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09:36<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, but that's probably a 0.7+ feature...
09:37<JazzyJaffa>I just need to know if a station tile is a dock
09:37<JazzyJaffa>I'll prob have to do it the hard way
09:37<Eddi|zuHause>there's no map accessor for that?
09:38<JazzyJaffa>Doesn't look like it, I might be missing something though
09:39<Tlustoch>I have a question :-)
09:40<Tlustoch>When I have 2 trains in station waiting for example for coal, why isn't first one loaded and then the second one? Why does it load both at once??
09:43<Hendikins>Because you're not using the improved loading algorithm?
09:43<DeGhosty>because it's faster
09:43<DeGhosty>:)
09:44<DeGhosty>if you have more then ur train capacity
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09:46<JazzyJaffa>Tlustoch: http://wiki.openttd.org/index.php/Improved_Loading
09:46<Tlustoch>Oh I see the option now.
09:47<Tlustoch>And what about passengers (where I do not use "load")?
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09:58<Tlustoch>How do I compile game without squirrel?
09:59<@Belugas>you can use trunk for that :)
10:00<Tlustoch>But I need version with AI API
10:01<+glx>why don't you want squirrel?
10:02<Tlustoch>I need C++
10:02<+glx>both are usable in NoAI
10:02<Tlustoch>But why should I compile squirrel again and again when I will not need it?
10:03<+glx>it's compiled only once if no files are changed in it
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10:05<Sacro>http://support.microsoft.com/kb/152697
10:07<hylje>whaaaaaaaat
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10:18<JazzyJaffa>Looks like global pathfinding for ships is working!
10:18<Digitalfox_Desktop>Sacro: What the hell is that KB??
10:18<Sacro>Digitalfox_Desktop: not entirely sure...
10:19<Digitalfox_Desktop>I've seen some strange things at microsoft, but that is one of the fews that makes say WHAT...
10:21<JazzyJaffa>knowledge base I think
10:22<Digitalfox_Notebook>JazzyJaffa: We know that, the point is in what the KB has...
10:23<Digitalfox_Notebook>I receive from six on six months 13 CD's from KB of microsoft, send by them.. Gonna check to see if that KB is there..
10:25<Eddi|zuHause>"ACHTUNG: Der folgende Knowledge Base Artikel wurde durch ein maschinelles Übersetzungssystem ohne jegliche menschliche Mitwirkung übersetzt." <- lmao :p
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10:29<Digitalfox_Notebook>Eddi|zuHause: But in English there were no "translated by a machine translation system without any human co-operation." I've read it in English in My desktop and in Portuguese in my notebook ( it differs the language based on your regional location configuration)
10:30<Eddi|zuHause>yes, i know, but the thing is why they do that at all :p
10:30<Eddi|zuHause>machine translations are more often than not worse to understand than the original
10:30<Digitalfox_Notebook>true :)
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10:31<Digitalfox_Notebook>Oh shit 4:31 PM and haven't had lunch yet.. -bye..
10:32<Noldo_>it happens
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10:47<Tlustoch>Where do I find data type defition? For example TileIndex?
10:47<+glx>usually in hearders
10:47<+glx>$headers
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10:56<Timwi>Hi!
10:56<Timwi>Any hardcore developers around? :))
10:56<JazzyJaffa>Tlustoch: grep is where you fin most things
10:56<Timwi>Suppose I wanted to translate OpenTTD into a new language, but it doesn't display a particular character. How hard would it be for me to add that character to the game?
10:57<+glx>use a font
10:58<Timwi>Where is the font stored?
10:58<+glx>in openttd.cfg
10:59<Timwi>No, I mean the actual font :)
10:59<+glx>default "font" is sprites in original TTD files
10:59<Timwi>Suppose I actually want to augment OpenTTD's own font with that one missing character
10:59<Timwi>Oh, I see
10:59<Timwi>Has anyone ever tried to make a lookalike font then? :)
10:59<+glx>and now we don't add any sprites as you can use fonts
11:00<@peter1138>i've got a look-a-like of the small font
11:00<@peter1138>in bdf format
11:00<@peter1138>no reason why it couldn't be done for the larger fonts too
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11:04<Timwi>I get the message:
11:04<Timwi>Unable to use 'Zwonk' for large font, FreeType reported error 0x1, using sprite font instead
11:04<Timwi>Does that mean it doesn't support TTF?
11:04<skidd13>KUDr: ping
11:05<Rubidium>Timwi: what OS?
11:05<Timwi>Win2k
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11:05<izhirahider>is it a known issue trains crossing one on top of the other one (one on a bridge, the other on the ground), the top one doing some flickering?
11:05<Rubidium>izhirahider: yes
11:05<Rubidium>Timwi: is that font registered with windows?
11:06<Timwi>I fixed it :) The complete name of the font is "Zwonk Standard", not just "Zwonk"... which is weird, because I called it Zwonk :-)))
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11:08<izhirahider>Rubidium, ok, thanks
11:08<Timwi>Does it not support any anti-aliasing?
11:08<Rubidium>with the 8bpp blitter it doesn't
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11:10<Timwi>Hm, OK... can I tell it to use the font in boldface?
11:10<Eddi|zuHause>"Zwonk Bold"?
11:10<Timwi>There is no explicit Bold version of Zwonk...
11:11<Eddi|zuHause>have you actually tried it?
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11:11<Timwi>Have now
11:12<Eddi|zuHause>and?
11:12<Timwi>It works with "Verdana Fett" (where Fett is Bold in German), but not "Zwonk Fett" -- and indeed Verdana Fett is listed in C:\winnt\fonts, but Zwonk Fett is not
11:12<Timwi>Which is because Verdana Fett is actually a separate font file, but Zwonk is bolded "artificially" by Windows
11:12<Eddi|zuHause>hm, then i don't know any further
11:13<Timwi>I guess I'll just have to make Zwonk Bold. :-))
11:13<Eddi|zuHause>what's a zwonk anyway?
11:13<Timwi>It's my font
11:13<Timwi>It looks as crazy as it sounds
11:13<@Belugas>it's a wonk with depth :D
11:13<Timwi>Haha :-)
11:15<Timwi>OK, it looks like Verdana works OK for the medium and large font, but the small_font would definitely need some anti-aliasing :/
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11:16<Eddi|zuHause>what kind of silly characters do you want to display anyway?
11:16<Timwi>I introduced a friend of mine to OpenTTD and now he's considering translating it into his own conlang.
11:17<@peter1138>you need to separate bold with a comma
11:17<Timwi>peter1138: aaah! Thanks, I'll try that
11:17<@peter1138>sometimes
11:17<Timwi>So you mean I should put "Zwonk Standard, bold"?
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11:18<Timwi>Hm, nope, that doesn't work either
11:19<Rubidium>then freetype doesn't know how to make it bold
11:19<Timwi>But anyway -- to use Zwonk was just a crazy idea ... it works fine with Verdana. I'm only struggling with the small_font now, because it is too small for ANY font to be suitable :/
11:19<Rubidium>you could increase the font size slightly
11:19<Timwi>Yeah I know
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11:20<Timwi>Hm, nope, doesn't look nice. I get the impression, to be honest, that FreeType is not very good... the rendering is rather poor
11:21<Eddi|zuHause>or use the small font of peter1138's, and extend it with some special characters (or specify them in the character translation table to be replaced with standard characters)
11:21<Rubidium>the problem is you can't do antialiasing in a 8 bit paletted environment
11:21<Timwi>Yes, I understand, but it seems that FreeType can't do hinting either
11:21<Timwi>The K (capital) looks like an X...
11:22<Rubidium>Timwi: how would hinting work?
11:22<KUDr_wrk>skidd13: KUDr will be around 19:00 CET
11:22<Timwi>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Font_hinting (doesn't say very much unforutnately)
11:23<Timwi>To be honest I'm tempted to just augment the raster font that comes with the game ... would that be difficult?
11:23<Timwi>Would I need to recompile the game for that?
11:23<Rubidium>as you can see in that image they use aliasing
11:23<Timwi>Rubidium: The *entire* image uses aliasing. But only one of the two rows uses hinting
11:24<Rubidium>I see it makes the font "fatter"
11:24<Timwi>Here is a screenshot showing my first experiments with adding hinting to a font. http://timwi.dyndns.org:8989/upload/unhinted-hinted.png
11:24<Timwi>Rubidium: It makes the font less fat actually, it's the bottom one that uses hinting
11:25<Rubidium>stupid caption
11:25<Timwi>What it does is it aligns the "lines" that each letter is made up of, onto pixel boundaries. That prevents this grey blurring
11:26<Rubidium>but the characters are already pixel aligned when we draw them
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11:26<Eddi|zuHause>so if freetype can do that it's all a matter of providing the correct parameter, isn't it?
11:26<@peter1138>that's why i made a bdf of the small font
11:27<Timwi>Rubidium: It's a bit difficult to explain what hinting really means. :/
11:27<Timwi>Eddi: Well my theory is that FreeType can't do it, but I may be wrong
11:27<Timwi>peter1138: Is bdf bitmap-based?
11:27<Timwi>i.e. not vectors
11:27<Rubidium>Timwi: there are some legal issues with the hinting code in freetype IIRC
11:28<Eddi|zuHause>Timwi: the wikipedia article said freetype can do it
11:28<Timwi>I know that there are some patents (with IBM or something), but I live in Europe and the patents do not apply here :-p
11:28<@peter1138>Timwi: yes
11:28<Timwi>Eddi: I see
11:28<Timwi>peter1138: OK, where can I get the font, and how can I edit it so that I can add new characters? :)
11:28<Rubidium>so you've compiled libfreetype yourself?
11:29<@peter1138>http://fuzzle.org/o/small.bdf
11:29<@peter1138>i used xbdfedit
11:29<Timwi>Whoa, a text format o.O
11:29<Eddi|zuHause>that does not sound like a windows program :p
11:29<@peter1138>no, it's not
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11:30<Timwi>It's OK, I'll try to find an editor myself
11:30<Digitalfox_Desktop>I just build a bank using last nightly, and tried to use the production values change cheat, but it doesn't work on banks... :(
11:31<Eddi|zuHause>reminds me of that wtf contest, where one guy sent in a program that took the shape definitions from a file in plain english... "a Zero is a Circle" etc.
11:31<Digitalfox_Desktop>By design or bug?
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11:33<Eddi|zuHause>it's an undocumented feature, Digitalfox_Desktop... :)
11:33<Timwi>peter1138: Thanks, the font seems to work
11:33<Timwi>However, it has a slight problem :))
11:34<@peter1138>slight? heh
11:34<Timwi>The right margin on all the umlauts (ä ö ü) are one pixel too large
11:34<Noldo>Eddi|zuHause: that was nice :)
11:34<@peter1138>btw, any bitmap font supported by freetype will work
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11:34<@peter1138>i used bdf because i had a bdf editor, heh
11:34<Tlustoch>How do I build rails with AI API??
11:35<Digitalfox_Desktop>Eddi|zuHause: "undocumented feature" what does that mean?? :)
11:35<@peter1138>it's a feature that is not documented
11:35<Rubidium>Tlustoch: you don't as that part of the API isn't implemented (yet)
11:36<Eddi|zuHause>it means there is a functional divergence between the technical and the natural description of the behaviour
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11:38<Tlustoch>*SHOCKED*
11:38<Tlustoch>I hate cars :-)
11:38<Tlustoch>When it will be implemented??
11:39<@peter1138>when it's ready
11:39<@peter1138>hmm
11:39<Eddi|zuHause>TrueBrain is scared of rails :)
11:39<@peter1138>1337 list admin request(s) waiting
11:39<Eddi|zuHause>hehe :)
11:40<Rubidium>Tlustoch: when all the stuff is ready to make a proper road AI/aircraft AI
11:41<Tlustoch>That's waste of time. You will need better pathfinder for trains, so if you will make just a good one for cars it will be useless.
11:43<Rubidium>building a good rail network is way way more complicated and needs much much more API, so the decision has been made to first implement/test everything with road vehicles and then extend it to the other vehicles types
11:44<Rubidium>at the moment it is even impossible to make a proper pathfinder as it has no knowledge of the map (heights, slopes etc)
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11:44<Wolf01>hello
11:44<Rubidium>nor can it build bridges/tunnels
11:45<Tlustoch>I think that making reasonable pathfinder is easy :-)
11:45<Tlustoch>Especially for cars
11:45<Rubidium>it's about making a pathfinder for roads
11:45<Eddi|zuHause>i think the best idea would be to implement hooks into YAPF
11:45<Wolf01>we need a pathfinder for ships!
11:46<Rubidium>Wolf01: there already are three
11:46<Eddi|zuHause>no, we need to optimise the current ship pathfinder a little more
11:46<KUDr_wrk>and fourth is in development
11:47<Wolf01>or at least a system to give orders without buoys, which should be located automatically
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11:47<KUDr_wrk>Wolf01 look at the forums
11:47|-|skidd13|dinner changed nick to skidd13
11:47<KUDr_wrk>JazzyJaffa is working on it
11:48<KUDr_wrk>skidd13: bit later than 19:00...
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11:48<KUDr_wrk>still at work
11:48<Eddi|zuHause>you have 12 minutes :p
11:48<KUDr_wrk>not enough
11:49<skidd13>maybe later ... want to cycle a bit, weather is nice outside
11:51<skidd13>will PM you the stuff then. CYA
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11:59<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r10605 /trunk/src/stdafx.h: -Fix [FS#1046]: also OpenBSD does not know wchar. Patch by Matthias.
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12:07<hylje>heh, someone is using one's OTTD folder for porn
12:10<Tlustoch>I just made AI that builds random straight road in the middle of the map :-)
12:10<Tlustoch>It's not that difficult.
12:10<Tlustoch>I just have to get into it because I didn't write code for some time.
12:14<Eddi|zuHause>hmmm... ice cream with blackberries, delicious :)
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12:15<Eddi|zuHause>damn, hylje figured me out :p
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12:20<hylje>mwahaha
12:21<Tlustoch>What about stupid pathfinder? Does it do something?
12:22<Eddi|zuHause>i'm sure there is documentation about what it does
12:23<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: so am I
12:23<hylje>so we have a Stupid Pathfinder too?
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12:23<Rubidium>hylje: NoAI API (for building roads)
12:24<hylje>oh
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13:12<Timwi>peter1138
13:12<Timwi>peter1138? :)
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13:25<sartsj>if i control+c the dedicated server to kill it, does it write the config it WAS running back to the openttd.cfg?
13:26<@peter1138>no
13:26<@peter1138>i think
13:26<@peter1138>er
13:27<sartsj>well if i edit the cfg file, and then kill it to start it again, it reverts back to the config it was running
13:27<sartsj>at least it seems like that
13:27<sartsj>i've had this problem before
13:28<Rubidium>then it apparantly saves on CTRL-c
13:28<sartsj>you dont know? :)
13:29<Rubidium>no
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13:30<Rubidium>I don't know every and all of the lines of code of OTTD
13:30<Rubidium>and I think nobody actually does
13:30<@peter1138>we could know, by looking it up, if it became important :)
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13:31<Rubidium>but I suspect it behaves in the same way as the GUI of OTTD does, i.e. handling the CTRL-c gracefully
13:31<Timwi-FlownAway>o.O
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13:31<Timwi-Away>:-p
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14:14<Ailure>Start date: 2050-01-01
14:14|-|Tlustoch [~last_evol@vetrnik.koleje.cuni.cz] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
14:14<Ailure>Current date: 1981-08-20
14:14<Ailure>http://www.openttd.org/server_detail.php?id=4895
14:14<Ailure>Back to the future?
14:14<Ailure>D:
14:14<Ailure>I saw this in the last game I hosted too
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14:15<@peter1138>hehe
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14:22<Thunder>uhm hi, i just found openttd and i wanted to host a dedicated server on my root. i looked up the wiki tutorial but the commandline with the -d didnt work out for me.. anyone may tell me if i missed something?
14:23<Rubidium>-d is for debugging
14:23<Rubidium>-D is for the dedicated server
14:24<Thunder>awww
14:24<Thunder>missed the case sens :D
14:24<Thunder>thank you
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14:24<Thunder>there it is :)
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14:53<Timwi>OK, I have a problem with translating the game, any developers present who know how the {STRING}s are substituted?
14:54<+glx>they are replaced by another string
14:54<Timwi>yes, in my case the wrong string
14:54<Timwi>Shall I elaborate?
14:55<Timwi>We have the following two strings:
14:55<Timwi>STR_000F_PASSENGERS :Passengers
14:55<Timwi>and
14:55<Timwi>STR_002F_PASSENGER :Passenger
14:55<Timwi>The string I'm trying to translate is STR_202E_OFFER_OF_SUBSIDY_EXPIRED
14:55<Timwi>STR_202E_OFFER_OF_SUBSIDY_EXPIRED :{BLACK}{BIGFONT}Offer of subsidy expired:{}{}{STRING} from {STRING2} to {STRING2} will now not attract a subsidy.
14:55<Timwi>The problem is that the first {STRING} is always replaced with STR_000F_PASSENGERS, but I need STR_002F_PASSENGER in this case.
14:56<+glx>why?
14:56<Timwi>All the other subsidy-related strings use the right string
14:57<@peter1138>Passengers from Foo to Bar will now not attract a subsidy
14:57<@peter1138>Passenger from Foo to Bar will now not attract a subsidy
14:57<@peter1138>the latter makes no sense ;p
14:57<Timwi>Yes, I need it to say "passenger service"
14:57<Timwi>Like all the other ones
14:58<Timwi>I noticed that in the others it is possible to substitute the "wrong" one by using {STRING2} instead of {STRING} or {STRING} instead of {STATION} etc. It's quite confusing, there seems to be no consistency
14:59<@peter1138>there is a method to its madness
14:59<Timwi>Well if someone could explain it that would be nice :)
14:59<Timwi>Or at least tell me how I can use "passenger" in this sentence
14:59<@peter1138>you can't
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15:00<Timwi>Why did the developers make it possible to use the wrong string in the others, but not in this one?
15:00<Timwi>And what do I need to change in the source to make it possible :))
15:01<Timwi>I notice the following lines:
15:01<Timwi> AddNewsItem(STR_202E_OFFER_OF_SUBSIDY_EXPIRED, NEWS_FLAGS(NM_NORMAL, NF_TILE, NT_SUBSIDIES, 0), pair.a, pair.b);
15:01<Timwi>and
15:01<Timwi> AddNewsItem(STR_202F_SUBSIDY_WITHDRAWN_SERVICE, NEWS_FLAGS(NM_NORMAL, NF_TILE, NT_SUBSIDIES, 0), pair.a, pair.b);
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15:02<Timwi>The parameters are all the same!!!
15:02<Timwi>What tells it to use the other string? :/
15:02<@peter1138>the SetDParams before that
15:04<Timwi>You mean pair = SetupSubsidyDecodeParam(s, 1);
15:04<Timwi>?
15:04<Timwi>It has the same parameters on both calls as well
15:04<+glx>yes 1 means use plural
15:04<+glx>0 means use singular
15:04|-|raimar2 [~hawk@p5489CA98.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
15:05<Timwi>Argh
15:05<Timwi>But this has nothing to do with singular or plural...
15:05<Timwi>Welll... it does... but ...
15:06<@peter1138>what language are you doing?
15:07<Timwi>German
15:07<Timwi>I want to understand this independently of the language though
15:08<@peter1138>heh, german is 100% complete, apparently
15:08<Timwi>I want to understand why it uses the correct string in STR_202F_SUBSIDY_WITHDRAWN_SERVICE but not in STR_202E_OFFER_OF_SUBSIDY_EXPIRED despite the fact that they seem to use the same parameters in the code
15:08<Timwi>peter1138, you're not being very helpful I'm afraid :/ ... the German translation is atrocious, it maybe 100% complete, but it's 50% good translation and 50% bad
15:08<Timwi>This is one example
15:09<Timwi>The subsidy news item is grammatically wrong
15:09|-|Desolator [Desolator@82.79.212.8] has joined #openttd
15:09<Desolator>*sigs*
15:10<Desolator>*digs*
15:10<Timwi>Hi
15:10<Timwi>digs for what? :)
15:10<Desolator>yo
15:10|-|mode/#openttd [+b *!*Desolator@82.79.212.*] by peter1138
15:10|-|Desolator kicked [#openttd] peter1138 [Try again, don't fucking "bump" or "dig"]
15:10|-|mode/#openttd [-b *!*Desolator@82.79.212.*] by peter1138
15:10|-|Desolator [Desolator@82.79.212.8] has joined #openttd
15:10<Desolator>hey!
15:10<Timwi>OK, I'm not sure what that was for
15:10<@peter1138>welcome :p
15:10<Desolator>~:(
15:11<Desolator>>:(
15:11<Timwi>peter1138: Can I e-mail my question to a developer who knows the answer?
15:11<Desolator>no
15:11<Desolator>email bites
15:11<@peter1138>clearly it's magic
15:12<blathijs>Isn't this what ludde coded when he dropped by last year?
15:13<Desolator>peter, I got a bug with the finace info
15:13<Timwi>Gosh peter1138, you're trying really hard to piss me off eh? Sorry for trying to help with the development and improvement, you know
15:13<Desolator>*finance
15:13<@peter1138>Timwi: well, i can stop looking in the code if you want
15:13<@peter1138>fiance info?
15:13<Timwi>I didn't know you're looking at the code at the moment, sorry.
15:14<Timwi>But I would welcome it if you could stop giving snide remarks :-).
15:14<Desolator>erm, the palce where you see hoqw much money you're earning, spending, etc...i forgot how it's called
15:14<Desolator>*place
15:15<Desolator>finances window
15:16<@peter1138>hmm
15:16|-||Jeroen| [~jeroen@d51A43614.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: oO]
15:16[~]peter1138 wonders what is actually shown
15:16<Desolator>nothing
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15:16<@peter1138>regarding subsidies :p
15:16<@peter1138>Desolator: that usually means the date has been changed somewhere
15:17<Desolator>O.o? in the scenario editor
15:17<Ailure>if you are before the company founding date
15:17<Ailure>the finacnes windwo is messed up
15:17<Ailure>check the founding date of the company
15:17|-|e1ko [~L@205.117.broadband9.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
15:17<Ailure>and current date
15:17<Ailure>I had a similar thing happening to me when the game started in 1920
15:18<Desolator>well AFAIK it didn't affect if you edited a scenario to put it in 1920
15:18<Ailure>but due to messing around in the scenario editor before, it thought the first company started 1950
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15:18<@peter1138>Services already subsidised:
15:18<@peter1138>Passenger from Mintingford to Nonningville
15:18<@peter1138>hmm, but that's not the news message
15:18<Desolator>ZOMG it's 1955 O.o
15:18<Ailure>heh
15:18<Ailure>I guessed so
15:18<Desolator>I guess it's a bug in the scenario editor
15:19<Ailure>yeah
15:19<Desolator>should change the funding date if you change the date
15:19<Ailure>I was going to report it for a long time ago, but then forgot about it as I got busy with studies again
15:19<Ailure>and it's something I only stumbled over once too
15:19<Ailure>even if reprodcuable easily
15:20<Desolator>make an empty scenario, save it, load it, change date back, paly it, kaboom
15:20<Desolator>*play
15:20<@peter1138>Timwi: yup, there is some serious magic going on here
15:20<@peter1138>the subsidies messages are also screwed up
15:20<Desolator>alright, I'm out
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15:21<@peter1138>ah ha
15:23<@peter1138>awww cra
15:23<@peter1138>p
15:23<@peter1138>stupid big compiles :(
15:24<ProfFrink>peter1138: Take the dyslexic robocop approach.
15:24<ProfFrink>"Drop your weapon. You have ten seconds to compile."
15:24<@peter1138>if only it was 10 seconds
15:25|-|ProfFrink changed nick to Prof_Frink
15:25<Prof_Frink>Hmm, keepnick fail.
15:25<Prof_Frink>anyway, after ten seconds, success or not, you shoot your computer
15:26<@peter1138>hah
15:26<@peter1138>good ol' abit
15:26<@peter1138>i think the capacitors will explode before too long
15:26<Timwi>Found something?
15:27<@peter1138>well
15:27<@peter1138>waiting for this compile
15:27<Timwi>I just tested my theory empirically and I discovered that I was wrong -- the "WITHDRAWN" message is also wrong :)
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15:27|-|mode/#openttd [+o Bjarni] by ChanServ
15:27<Timwi>Which is doubly weird because that one has "service" in the English string. I guess I'll try the test in English
15:27<@Bjarni>!logs
15:27<SpComb>Logs: http://spbot.marttila.de:8120/logs/oftc-ottd (old: http://zapotek.paivola.fi/~terom/logs/openttd )
15:27<@peter1138>my suspicion is that plural/singular are mixed
15:28<Timwi>Indeed it says "passengers service" :-))
15:28<@peter1138>i'm assuming you're using a nightly/svn here
15:29<@Bjarni>we have an issue with singular/plural and translations.... like is aircraft singular or plural?
15:29<@peter1138>no
15:30<@Bjarni>well, are you sure all the translators are sure of this while translating some string where aircraft appears in?
15:31<@Bjarni>I don't think it's a huge issue. Luckily the translators tend to investigate whenever they end up in situations like this
15:32<CIA-1>OpenTTD: peter1138 * r10606 /trunk/src/ (cargotype.h newgrf.cpp): -Fix (r8826): plural and single cargo names were mixed up.
15:33<@peter1138>Bjarni: i would imagine a translator would know what plural form to use in their own language...
15:36<Timwi>peter1138: I am afraid I am looking at RC2 myself...
15:37<@peter1138>ah well
15:39<Timwi>peter1138: Do you know what type "StringID" is? Is it an integer?
15:39<@peter1138>yes
15:39<@peter1138>unsigned 16 bit integer, to get picky
15:40<Timwi>OK.
15:40<Timwi>I'm looking at DrawNewsString() now
15:40<Timwi>Clearly ni->string_id is an integer then
15:40<Timwi>So after str = ni->string_id;, str is just the string ID, it doesn't have any parameters in it
15:40<Timwi>Then it calls: GetString(buffer, str, lastof(buffer));
15:41<Timwi>I'm completely mystified where the substitution happens :)
15:41<@peter1138>CopyInDParam
15:42<Timwi>o.O
15:42<Timwi>How is the result of that passed to GetString()?
15:42<@peter1138>*cough* globals *cough*
15:43<@Bjarni><peter1138> Bjarni: i would imagine a translator would know what plural form to use in their own language... <-- that's not what I meant. It was more like reading if it is one or more in the English string when deciding if singular or plural should be used in the translated string
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15:44<Timwi>The problem is not that I don't know what to use, the problem is that the GAME doesn't know what to use :))) It is using the wrong one and I can't fix that
15:44<@peter1138>possibly it's the wrong way around in 0.5.2 as well
15:44<@peter1138>er
15:45<@peter1138>0.5.3-RC2
15:45<@peter1138>if it is then i can use that as my excuse for it being wrong in trunk ;)
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15:46<@Bjarni>Timwi: right. Good point
15:46[~]Bjarni stops trying to multitask
15:46<@Bjarni>I should really read everything said in here before saying anything :s
15:47<@peter1138>god
15:47<@peter1138>DEPs were so slow :p
15:47<sartsj>jesus
15:50<Timwi>OK, peter1138, after investigating a lot of the source code I now believe that the fix requires changing
15:50<Timwi>pair = SetupSubsidyDecodeParam(s, 1);
15:50<Timwi>to
15:50<Timwi>pair = SetupSubsidyDecodeParam(s, 0);
15:50<sartsj>is there a way to clean a company from a server?
15:50<sartsj>manually
15:50<Timwi>in both line 1025 and line 1032 in economy.c
15:50<Timwi>And then the English string STR_202E_OFFER_OF_SUBSIDY_EXPIRED needs to be changed to include the word "service" after "{STRING}"
15:54<MUcht>we need to increase the max_players :-(
15:54<Phazorx>yes we do
15:54<MUcht>once again, like almost every evening the past month :-/
15:55<@peter1138>why? you only use 1 player
15:55<Phazorx>well we have mroe than 10 ppl each using one player...
15:55<Phazorx>at least wanting to do so...
15:56<+glx>then it's not max_player but max_client :)
15:56<MUcht>2 people more want to join in :-/
15:56<MUcht>ah glx thx for the tip
15:56<Phazorx>ughm... sorry max clients then
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16:27<Timwi>Hi again
16:27<Timwi>peter1138, did you get my last suggestions regarding the suggested source code change?
16:28<Eddi|zuHause>Timwi: have you at all looked at the last commit?
16:29<Timwi>Eddi|zuHause: I was out of this channel for a while as you may have noticed
16:29<Eddi|zuHause>it was an hour ago :p
16:30<Rubidium>Timwi: might be, but you were in the channel when it happened
16:30<Timwi>OK then I'll check my channel logs
16:31<Timwi>Crap, timestamps missing :/
16:31<Rubidium>search for CIA
16:31<Timwi><CIA-1> OpenTTD: miham * r10592 /trunk/src/lang/ (15 files): (log message trimmed)
16:31<Timwi>Is it part of that?
16:31<hylje>svn log
16:31<Eddi|zuHause>!openttd commit
16:31<_42_>Commit by peter1138 :: r10606 /trunk/src/ (cargotype.h newgrf.cpp) (2007-07-17 20:32:27 UTC)
16:31<_42_>-Fix (r8826): plural and single cargo names were mixed up.
16:32<Timwi>How can I get a diff of that change?
16:32<Timwi>Without having svn installed :-p
16:32<Eddi|zuHause>git.openttd.org maybe?
16:34<Timwi>OK, I've seen it now. He has changed something very different from what I was referring to
16:34<Timwi>Therefore I assume the answer is 'no', he either hasn't seen my suggestion or decided not to commit it
16:35<Eddi|zuHause>it was long before your "suggestion"
16:35<Timwi>Yes, and it doesn't address my problem
16:35<Eddi|zuHause>and it just shows the issue was deeper than that
16:35<Timwi>Hence my suggestion still stands
16:35<Timwi>Are you sure?
16:35<Rubidium>Timwi: how do you know it doesn't address your problem?
16:35<Eddi|zuHause>have you tried it?
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16:36<Rubidium>as these little changes swap the singular and plural names (if you don't load them as newgrf, which you most likely aren't)
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16:38<Timwi>I'll try the nightly tomorrow and see
16:39<Eddi|zuHause>it's just 3 lines, you can change them in your working copy easily
16:40<Eddi|zuHause>while only the line in cargotype.h will most likely suffice
16:40<Eddi|zuHause>the other part might be newcargo related, and thus not be included in 0.5
16:40<Timwi>I can change them in the source, but I can't recompile :
16:40<Timwi>:)
16:41<Timwi>At least not without downloading and installing Visual Studio first
16:41<Eddi|zuHause>you can use buildottd
16:41<@peter1138>0.5 doesn't have cargotype.h
16:42<Eddi|zuHause>ok, but it has the struct, or not?
16:42<@peter1138>nope
16:42<Eddi|zuHause>funny :)
16:42<Timwi>Should I use 1.0-RC1 or 0.4.0 of BuildOTTD?
16:43<Digitalfox_Desktop>RC1
16:43<Timwi>k
16:43<Eddi|zuHause>i have no idea
16:43<Digitalfox_Desktop>It's the last version
16:43<Rubidium>last != best
16:44<Ailure>...suggestion
16:45<Ailure>do recession really need to be under economy changes?
16:45<Eddi|zuHause>it is, if all transformation functions are monotonous
16:46<Eddi|zuHause>Ailure: under what else?
16:47<Eddi|zuHause>wasn't there supposed to be a differentiation between "unimportant" and "important" economical changes?
16:49<Ailure>well I generally seen it more of a disaster than anything <<
16:49<Ailure>and economy changes is the most annoying news category on huge maps
16:50<Timwi>Hm, I don't understand how BuildOTTD works :(
16:50<Timwi>I click "Update and Compile", then it says "revision 10606 checked out", and then it doesn't do anything else
16:51<Timwi>Ah, LOL, now it does something :)
16:51<Timwi>OK, it needs a bit more indication that it is doing something
16:52<Eddi|zuHause>there's probably a thread in the forum where you can post suggestions
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16:54<Timwi>OK, I've tried it, the bug is still there
16:54<Timwi>As I said, the revision wasn't addressing my problem
16:54|-|Tlustoch [~last_evol@vetrnik.koleje.cuni.cz] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
16:57<Timwi>OK, now how do I compile my modifications *without* updating to r10606?
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17:00<Eddi|zuHause>anyone ever figured out what this means? /home/johannes/spiele/OpenTTD/src/misc/blob.hpp:376: warning: assuming signed overflow does not occur when assuming that (X - c) >= X is always true
17:01<@peter1138>i means your compiler is buggy
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17:01<@peter1138>*it
17:02<Eddi|zuHause>has this actually been fixed somewhere?
17:02<Timwi>Eddi|zuHause, how can I compile OpenTTD using BuildOTTD without updating from SVN, i.e. without reverting my changes to the source files?
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17:03<Eddi|zuHause>i have no idea how buildottd works, but it probably installes mingw/gcc, so if you put the directory with the binaries in path, you can type "make" on the command line
17:04<Timwi>I thought of that, but "make" is not included it seems
17:04<Eddi|zuHause>gmake?
17:04<Eddi|zuHause>gnumake?
17:04<Timwi>OK, it *is* included, I didn't search for it properly :p
17:04<Eddi|zuHause>something like that
17:04<+glx>make is part of msys
17:05<Timwi>C:\BuildOTTD\msys\home\ottdsrc\trunk>make
17:05<Timwi>MAKE Version 5.2 Copyright (c) 1987, 1998 Inprise Corp.
17:05<Timwi>Error makefile 5: Command syntax error
17:05<Timwi>Same for loads of other lines ...
17:05<Eddi|zuHause>Timwi: ./configure first
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17:06<Eddi|zuHause>Timwi: btw, the bug is fixed for me...
17:06<Timwi>C:\BuildOTTD\msys\home\ottdsrc\trunk>sh ./configure
17:06<Timwi>Error: Invalid option -E
17:06<Timwi>configure: error: invalid option --endian=AUTO
17:06<Timwi> Available options are: --endian=[AUTO|LE|BE]
17:07<Timwi>Eddi|zuHause: How did you check that?
17:07<Eddi|zuHause>let a game run until a subsidy shows up?
17:07<Timwi>Well, the problem occurs when a subsidy _expires_
17:08<Eddi|zuHause>Timwi: tried "bash ./configure"?
17:08<Timwi>Yes, no bash.exe
17:08<Timwi>C:\BuildOTTD\msys\home\ottdsrc\trunk>dir C:\BuildOTTD\msys\bin\*sh*
17:08<Timwi>lists only sh.exe
17:09<Timwi>And so does dir C:\BuildOTTD\*sh*.exe /s
17:09<Eddi|zuHause>probably wrong grep
17:09<+glx>sh.exe is bash
17:09<Eddi|zuHause>place the directory in the beginning of PATH
17:10<Eddi|zuHause>so you don't get accidently overriden by windows programs
17:10<Timwi>OK
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17:11<Timwi>OK, thanks, that worked
17:11<Timwi>It's complaining that it can't find 'svn' or 'subversion', but it continues nonetheless so I hope it's OK
17:11<+glx>yes it's ok
17:11<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, that's just for the revision number
17:12<+glx>you'll get a norev0000 version
17:12<Timwi>OK, thanks
17:12<Eddi|zuHause>buildottd should include svn also, so you can put that in path, too
17:12<Timwi>Yay, you're being really helpful now :)))))
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17:13<Eddi|zuHause>damn, this savegame is old...
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17:14<Eddi|zuHause>i think i created it with the elrails branch
17:14<Eddi|zuHause>with tgp patch
17:14<Timwi>OK, 'make' has finished... where is the EXE now? :)
17:14<Eddi|zuHause>in bin/
17:14<Eddi|zuHause>if trunk
17:14<Phazorx>bin/openttd.exe
17:15<Eddi|zuHause>in . if 0.5
17:15<Timwi>Would it be the one in C:\BuildOTTD\builds\trunk_r10606_17.07.2007_22-58-00 ?
17:15<Phazorx>unlikely
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17:15<Phazorx>bottd moves bin there, but make doies not
17:15<Eddi|zuHause>no, in the directory where you ran "make"
17:15<Timwi>OK, is it the one in C:\BuildOTTD\msys\home\ottdsrc\trunk\bin ? or C:\BuildOTTD\msys\home\ottdsrc\trunk\objs\release ?
17:16<Timwi>Ah, OK
17:16<Timwi>That would be trunk\bin then
17:16<Eddi|zuHause>yes
17:16<Timwi>In fact those last two have the same date/time stamp, so they might be the same
17:16<Phazorx>that would be strange
17:17<Eddi|zuHause>yes, it gets compiled in objs/release/ (or objs/debug)
17:17<Eddi|zuHause>and then copied to bin/
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17:17<Phazorx>ahh... nm i was still thinking about bottd folder
17:17<Eddi|zuHause>so it is easy to switch between release and debug builds with the same config and newgrfs
17:18<Timwi>OK, thanks very much for your help, that was really great
17:18<Timwi>My change fixes the issue I am reporting
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17:19<Timwi>Where do I post the patch? :)
17:19<Eddi|zuHause>then why is it fixed for me without those changes?
17:20<Desolator>hi
17:20<Timwi>Eddi|zuHause: Because you were looking at the wrong news item
17:20<Timwi>[23:08] <Eddi|zuHause> let a game run until a subsidy shows up?
17:20<Timwi>[23:09] <Timwi> Well, the problem occurs when a subsidy _expires_
17:20<Desolator>is there any way to get the MD5 of the lastest nightly? (so I can compare it with the MD5 of the downloaded file to check for errors)
17:20<Eddi|zuHause>the show up was also wrong previously
17:21<Timwi>Eddi: Either way, my change fixes the message for expiring and withdrawn subsidies
17:21<Timwi>(and only those)
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17:21<Eddi|zuHause>hm, ottd just segfaulted on me after reporting a wrong savegame
17:22<Timwi>Where do I post the patch?
17:22<Desolator>[01:20] <Desolator> is there any way to get the MD5 of the lastest nightly? (so I can compare it with the MD5 of the downloaded file to check for errors)
17:22<Eddi|zuHause>bugs.openttd.org?
17:22<Timwi>OK
17:24<Eddi|zuHause>Desolator: shouldn't a defect download not decompress?
17:27<Desolator>well if that happens, the user will be presented an unwanted error message (generated by the ZIP lib I use), thus I can't do something if it's corrupted
17:28<Eddi|zuHause>can't you catch that error?
17:28<Desolator>nope...
17:28<Eddi|zuHause>what kind of bad programming language do you use?
17:28<Timwi>Yay http://bugs.openttd.org/task/1049
17:28<Desolator>LUA
17:29<Eddi|zuHause>even batch can catch errors
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17:29<Eddi|zuHause>just use a unzip that can run in a non-interactive mode, then check the errorlevel
17:29<Desolator>well, a custom-build of LUA (search for AutoPlay Media Studio)
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17:29<Eddi|zuHause>can't be that difficult
17:30<Desolator>well unfortunately I can't change it
17:30<Desolator>I gotta use what I got...a Zip.Extract action =(
17:30<Eddi|zuHause>should be a command line parameter
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17:30<Timwi>Off to bed now
17:31<Timwi>Good night
17:31<Eddi|zuHause>-T test zipfile integrity
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17:31<Desolator>hmmm...*checks*
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17:32<Eddi|zuHause>i'd guess Zip.Test or something
17:33<Desolator>nope
17:33|-|Osai changed nick to Osai^zZz
17:33<Desolator>but I got a file in the gallery with some more functions...*checks*
17:33<Desolator>=( no
17:36<Desolator>well g2g cya
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17:44<Wolf01>'night
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18:12<@orudge>SpComb around?
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21:09<CIA-1>OpenTTD: glx * r10607 /trunk/src/stdafx.h: -Fix r10605: use '&&' in preprocessor directives (MSVC doesn't like 'and')
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21:44<neo_>some german in this channel?
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21:44<@Belugas>there might be a few. At least one that i remember
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21:46<neo_>i need help to connect an ottd server that run a long time. If some one want connect thy los the connection. Some one know what i can do.
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21:53<@Belugas>and i need to go to sleep
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23:16<De_Ghost>!latest
23:17<De_Ghost>oops
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---Logclosed Wed Jul 18 00:00:20 2007