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#openttd IRC Logs for 2007-07-19

---Logopened Thu Jul 19 00:00:51 2007
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03:05<sniper6kk6>i have a question if i would add money in multiplayer (with the consense of the other player) how do I have to do?
03:05<sniper6kk6>increment of the money of all player...
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03:08<Smoovious>afaik, you can't...
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03:10<sniper6kk6>ok... thx
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03:18<Phazorx>this is like "is there a button to get to last level and kill the last boss in one hit?" yay i just won the game in 10 seconds :)
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03:20<Smoovious>I like having cheats available sometimes, but most of thhe time, I prefer not using them... part o f playing, is thhe challenge
03:20<Smoovious>otherwise, I'd still be playing tic tac toe
03:24<alex_>theres no challenge in openttd
03:24<alex_>build a long traing line from a good coal mine to a power plant
03:24<alex_>and money means nothing after that
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03:26<Smoovious>there is so challenge to it... it all depends on how you play and what your goals are
03:27<Smoovious>TTD wouldn't have continnued to be as popular as it is, if there wasn't
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03:49<Gekko>people still play ET from the Atari
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03:53<alex_>Smoovious, i was in talking in reference to the challange of making cash obvious
03:53<alex_>not ones own personal goals
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03:56<Phazorx>i'd appreciate if some devs would comment on that one
04:01<Smoovious>ahh... I wasn't... was talking about the overall challenge
04:02<alex_>of ones goals, not the challenge of making cash
04:02<alex_>anyway we can go around and around in circlesd
04:14<JazzyJaffa>Phazorx: I think the trains are just longer on digonals, the speeds are correct
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04:17<Phazorx>it's nt only that they are longer, they are getting longer when they start goign diagonals
04:17<Phazorx>as the other part shows
04:18<Phazorx>trains are essentialy variable length
04:18<Phazorx>depending how many cars are straight and how many are angled
04:19<JazzyJaffa>yeah come from the fact you get 1 car per tile on diag and 2 on straight
04:19<Phazorx>1 car per half diagonal
04:20<@peter1138>screenshot of the testcase?
04:20<JazzyJaffa>hang on getting my diagonal and stright confused
04:20<@peter1138>it's known that dimensions in ttd are not 'right'
04:20<Phazorx>peter1138: it makes sesne only in action
04:20<@peter1138>well i can't load a game right now
04:20<Phazorx>peter1138: they are also not proportional
04:20<@peter1138>so it's screenshot or nothing
04:20<JazzyJaffa>on horizontal and vertical trains you get 1 car per tile, it should be sqrt(2)/2
04:21<Phazorx>peter1138: hang on
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04:21<Smoovious>playability comes first... besides, I'd be willing t o bet that the reason for thhat originally had a lot to do with making them look good in both directions, ,with the limited pixel c ount/arrangement available to do it in
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04:23<JazzyJaffa>but there is actually a larger gap between cars on horiz and verts
04:23<@peter1138>and that is coming from a well-respected TTD artist who knows what he is talking about
04:24<Smoovious>seems like nit-picking to me
04:24<@peter1138>it's not going to change :)
04:25<Smoovious>there's always Locomotion... .. .
04:26<Phazorx>both trains traveled same distance (straight TL):
04:27<Phazorx>after all
04:28<Phazorx>peter1138: my point is visual length (and one that is used for collisions) is measured with dia proportions
04:28<Phazorx>and traveled distances with iso
04:28<Phazorx>creating a scale factor of ~1.36 when going diagonal
04:28<Smoovious>wouldn't that have more to do with the GRF in use anyways? like, if a newgrf had them designed to be more proportional, would they be?
04:28<Phazorx>essentialy it shows up as enlongating the train as it goes through curve
04:28<Phazorx>by 36%
04:29<Phazorx>hence creating some kind of trailing zone which following train would encounter as an obstacle and slow down
04:29<Smoovious>that's the way it works
04:29<Phazorx>Smoovious: nope
04:29<Phazorx>nothing to do with grfs
04:30<Phazorx>it is game mechanics
04:30<Phazorx>for some purposes all tiles always fit 2 regular cars
04:30<Phazorx>so straight or diagonal tiles have same scale of 0.5 regular car
04:30<Phazorx>but that only affects length
04:30<Phazorx>but not traveled distance
04:31<Smoovious>yes, I know
04:31<Phazorx>which has different proportions depending if it is straight or diagonal
04:31<Phazorx>so for straigh piece it is 1:1
04:31<Smoovious>part of the limitations of the way the game wa designed
04:31<Phazorx>for diagonal it is sqrt(2)*isometrics skew
04:32<KUDr>[01:21:24] <Phazorx> well we are quite in diff TZs... i'll nag KUDr i guess << can you tell me what happened?
04:32<Smoovious>no, it isn't
04:32<Phazorx>KUDr: i was showing Rubidium some save where tram would circle w/o goign to station
04:32<Phazorx>hang on
04:33<KUDr>i don't worry
04:33<KUDr>about trams
04:33<KUDr>i never made YAPF for trams
04:33<Smoovious>peter1138 already said it isn't going to change... so let the horse die in peace already
04:33<KUDr>and never tested it
04:34<Phazorx>KUDr: what's the difference?
04:34<Phazorx>same trackcs and node based exhaustive search should be
04:34<KUDr>different road type requested
04:34<Phazorx>by that doesn taffect the algorithm ??
04:34<KUDr>and afaik, YAPF makes no difference in that
04:34<Phazorx>i think so to
04:34<Phazorx>yet behavior is strange
04:34<KUDr>it was made before trams were introduced
04:35<Phazorx>ahh so you mean trams see road as tracks when ot comes to PFing ?
04:35<KUDr>YAPF treats all roads the same
04:35<Phazorx>i see... will that ever change tho?
04:36<KUDr>YAPF can't see the difference between them
04:36<KUDr>and such PF can't work
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04:36<Phazorx>yapf can be taught to see the difference i hope :)
04:36<KUDr>this is my opinion
04:36<KUDr>maube i am wrong
04:36<KUDr>consult it with 'trams' author
04:37<Phazorx>well, if some parts of the game are awera of such difference other parts can be changed in that way too
04:37<KUDr>dunno who is that
04:37<Rubidium>I added trambits checking code
04:37<KUDr>into YAPF?
04:38<Eddi|zuHause2>maybe something similar to r10491 needed?
04:38<KUDr>yeah maybe
04:38<Phazorx>that one was desyncing
04:38<Phazorx>this one is less ugly
04:38<KUDr>for me it was suprise that guys were able to implement trams without changing YAPF
04:39<KUDr>at least i missed it if it happened (YAPF change)
04:39<Phazorx>that's nice to hear :)
04:39<Phazorx>Rubidium: check that one too plz, i;d like to hear what you think about it
04:39<KUDr>Phazorx: please fill bug with all the info how to repro it
04:39<Phazorx>and peter1138, you too?
04:40<KUDr>i will look at it on weekend
04:40<Phazorx>KUDr: that might be a bit challenging but i'll try
04:40<KUDr>make it cathegory YAPF
04:40<@peter1138>if you can't be bothered to type please, i can't bothered to look
04:40<@peter1138>and also, i said it is not going to change
04:40<Rubidium> <- KUDr that's how I 'fixed' YAPF
04:40<Phazorx>peter1138: i gave you 3 screenshots as asked?
04:41<Phazorx>hmm... sad...
04:41<KUDr>Rubidium: i missed that, then sorry
04:41<Phazorx>seems to me as quite obvious and ugly issue
04:41<@peter1138>too much depends on that behaviour
04:41<@peter1138>we'd break newgrf compatibility for a start
04:42<Phazorx>if trains travel diagonaly as sprites scale?
04:42<Phazorx>how's that ?
04:42<KUDr>Phazorx: Rubidium't pach seems ok, so please enter bug for me
04:42<Phazorx>KUDr: will do when i get to reproducing it
04:42<@peter1138>original sprites are too short, or the distance is too great
04:42<Phazorx>current test case is a bit ugly
04:42<KUDr>ok, thanks
04:43<@peter1138>either way, newgrf sprites generally compensate by having longer sprites
04:43<KUDr>try some as simple as possible scenarion
04:43<KUDr>meaning low number of verhs and so on
04:43<Phazorx>peter1138: distance is calculation, there is a scale factor used somewhere, a minimal change that would affect train position would require changing that... but that's as far as it should go
04:44<Phazorx>i'm not asking to scale sprites "realistically" that is unneeded... much eaier to calclate speed/travel distance in same way as scaling is done
04:44<Phazorx>with 1:1 straight to diagonal, rather than 1:sqrt(2)
04:45<@peter1138>it's 3:4 at the moment
04:46<Phazorx>well, visually it is iso proportions * sqrt(2)
04:46<@peter1138>i.e. at X speed it'll travel 3 tiles vertically and 4 tiles diagonally
04:47<Phazorx>can it be made so it matches scale factor ?
04:47<@peter1138>also, the game is no isometric
04:47<Phazorx>and trains dont change size depending on direction?
04:47<Phazorx>game is diametric
04:47<Phazorx>but 3:4 is not dia proportions
04:47<Phazorx>and visualy it is not 3:4 either
04:48<Phazorx>they isues is not in WHAT is it, rather what it is DIFFERENT depending on wether it is length or distance
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04:49<@peter1138>anyway, it's not changing
04:49<Phazorx>that's kidna bad :|
04:55<Tlustoch>AITile::IsBuildable returns true when there's road on tile - that will be pretty bad when you will start building rails :-)
04:56<Eddi|zuHause2>you can build level crossings
04:57<Eddi|zuHause2>it's a optimistic estimation... there might be the possibility of you placing a rail there
04:58<Tlustoch>It has lot of other problems. You can decide to make water channel and it will tell you true when there will be unmoveable road in the midle of the city..
04:58<Eddi|zuHause2>for proper planning later you also might need a conservative test that assures you that you can build there whatever you want to build
05:00<Eddi|zuHause2>this "conservative" test should probably be done with a DoCommand
05:00<JazzyJaffa> If you look in the route planner patch in the forum that has a function that tells you if a track segment can be built on a tile, although it doesn't yet support building across your own tracks
05:00<JazzyJaffa>or roads
05:03<Tlustoch>In any case, someone should make new object into AI API that will do terraforming. Without terraforming you can't do much :-)
05:04<Noldo>Tlustoch: you are a little on the "Everything to me NOW!" -side
05:05<Tlustoch>Everything?? LOL. Terraforming is quite basic function.
05:05<KUDr>Tlustoch: check this: << i think AI can build a road well in 90% of cases (which should be sufficient)
05:06<KUDr>Terraforming is easy but it splits number of options you have to choose between to milions
05:07<KUDr>which nobody has sufficient CPU power for
05:07<KUDr>also it would require 'UNDO' functionality implemented
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05:08<KUDr>as you need to continue the PF branch after terraforming WITH that terraforming already applied
05:08<Tlustoch>You will have to deal with it sooner or later..
05:08<KUDr>this is the reason why old AI tried random terraforming first and then it tried to find new path
05:09<KUDr>no, AI can be simplified
05:09<KUDr>and never will be as smart as human
05:09<Noldo>that random terraforming makes the ground look like it was alive on 64*64 map
05:09<KUDr>this is common approach in games
05:10<KUDr>so AIs usually receive extra bonuses
05:10<Tlustoch>and never will be as smart as human <- LOL
05:10<KUDr>i.e. the old AI have paid nothing for his terraforming activities
05:11<KUDr>AI can only use brute force to do the task which you use your brain for
05:11<KUDr>and your brain is always more powerfull than your PC
05:12<KUDr>this is today's reality
05:12<Tlustoch>This is so funny.
05:12<KUDr>sunny but true
05:12<KUDr>-s +f :)
05:12<Noldo>well the human solution is propably not that optimized
05:13<KUDr>yes, but faster
05:13<KUDr>human uses his experience and his guess
05:13<Tlustoch>KUDr: you should check some other concepts in AI, like neural networks
05:13<KUDr>which is hard to implement
05:13<Eddi|zuHause2>human brain is very optimised for 3D extrapolation
05:13<Tlustoch>brute force is not the only solution
05:14<Eddi|zuHause2>Tlustoch: problem is, neural net can't be programmed very good
05:14<KUDr>then i would suggest you: don't complain and bring better solution
05:14<KUDr>as i told you already
05:14<Eddi|zuHause2>to get a proper neural net, you need to train it for 18 years (like a human)
05:14<JazzyJaffa>neural net is not well suited to path finding
05:14<Tlustoch>That's why I am demanding terraforming object.
05:15<KUDr>do it yourself
05:15<KUDr>nobody will invest his effort in blind direction
05:15<Eddi|zuHause2>Tlustoch: just take the GUI code calling the command, and put that into an AI function
05:15<KUDr>you must have a clear vision what would be the next step
05:15<KUDr>'neural networks' is not a clear vision
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05:16<Tlustoch>You will have to do this kind of object in AI API later so why not do it now?
05:16<@peter1138>we will? :p
05:16<Eddi|zuHause2>Tlustoch: the problem is not that it has to be done, but that it has to be done properly
05:16<JazzyJaffa>I have a few ideas for it, but there is no point till we have good non-terraforming algorithms
05:16<Noldo>NOW! do it Now!
05:16<KUDr>agree with JezzyJaffa
05:17<Eddi|zuHause2>peter1138! newterraforming! :p
05:17<KUDr>step by step
05:17<KUDr>don't force us to skip the basic concept due to your chimaeras
05:17<Tlustoch>Good pathfinding without terraforming will be quite useless when you add terraforming to it later.
05:17<KUDr>not true
05:18<KUDr>terraforming is quite expensive
05:18<JazzyJaffa>no way!
05:18<Tlustoch>Terraforming = _huge_ change.
05:18<KUDr>yes - very huge
05:18<KUDr>project for years to make good PF using terraforming
05:19<JazzyJaffa>You find non-terraformed routes with varying slope avoidance, look at how much it costs to flatten each one to some degree and choose the best performance/price
05:19<JazzyJaffa>it won't be optimal but it'll be ok
05:20<JazzyJaffa>BTW, with the ship pf that I'm finishing, how many bits is it ok to put in TileExtended?
05:21<KUDr>8 or 24
05:21<Eddi|zuHause2>i think with build on slopes you can do without terraforming most of the time, only thing is flattening area for station, but that does not have to do a lot with pathfinding
05:21<@peter1138>why would you need to add bits?
05:21<KUDr>region id
05:21<JazzyJaffa><- what KUDr said
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05:22<@peter1138>how many regions do you anticipate?
05:22<Eddi|zuHause2>concerning regions, wouldn't it be better to use some kind of union-find algorithm based on tile coordinates?
05:22<KUDr>some thousands
05:22<JazzyJaffa>With just one type of region (water ATM) we have 2000 on 1024x1024
05:23<JazzyJaffa>but with different types that may go up
05:23<@peter1138>why do you need to add bits though?
05:23<@peter1138>there are already 50 unused bits for water tiles
05:23<Rubidium>JazzyJaffa: putting it in TileExtended basically means you want to save it and you cannot determine it one loading the savegame, is that correct?
05:23<KUDr>wow, true!
05:24<JazzyJaffa>Good point Rubidium, we don't need to save this information
05:24<JazzyJaffa>Would it be better off somewhere else in that case?
05:24<KUDr>TileExtended doesn't necessarily mean that it must be saved
05:25<Rubidium>KUDr: yes and no
05:25<Rubidium>all _m and _me stuff is saved and people assume that that happens, so not doing so might give trouble
05:25<Rubidium>especially when people think that there are 4 free bits in there and use that for something
05:26<KUDr>if you keep it somewhere else the only benefit would be more code
05:26<KUDr>but ok, this is a good reason
05:27<Rubidium>KUDr: how many lines of more code?
05:27<KUDr>so JezzyJaffa: probably another YAPF cache
05:27<Rubidium>maybe 3 for reallocing it on map resize
05:27<@peter1138>there's no reason you can't store it in the map, but you don't need to extend the map data for that
05:27<KUDr>Rubidium: dunno
05:27<JazzyJaffa>I'd like to support the possibility of a tile being in more than one region (eg coast tiles with rail and water)
05:27<@peter1138>coast tiles can't have rail
05:28<Rubidium>coast tiles shouldn't be seen as water
05:28<Eddi|zuHause2>recalculating on load always has the problem that changes to it have to be deterministic, for multiplayer synchronisation
05:28<Rubidium>peter1138: why can't they?
05:28<@peter1138>Rubidium: half-coast tiles should be
05:28<KUDr>peter1138: yes, but those regions are meant to be used for land tiles too (only bit later)
05:28<@peter1138>Rubidium: because when you have rail on it it becomes a rail tile
05:29<Eddi|zuHause2>not if half-foundations are ever implemented :)
05:29<JazzyJaffa>but for planning: before the rail is built it is both rail and water passable
05:29<Rubidium>only the half coast tiles
05:30<JazzyJaffa>yes, only the half ones, an annoying exception case
05:31<@peter1138>KUDr: i only saw "ship pf" therefore assumed it's water tiles only
05:31<KUDr>true for now, yes
05:31<JazzyJaffa>sorry I should have explained that the region code can also be used for land navigation
05:32<Eddi|zuHause2>land navigation as in (AI) route finding?
05:32<KUDr>and gui auto-rail/aut-route
05:33<Eddi|zuHause2>yeah, that's kinda the same thing :)
05:33<KUDr>but not only for AI
05:33<KUDr>but for land it doesn't need to be in sync with other players
05:34<KUDr>so theoretically land can use extra chunk of memory elsewhere
05:34<hylje>autoroute :o
05:35<hylje>so we could have towns connected randomly in map generation?
05:35<JazzyJaffa>why doesn't it need to be in sync?
05:35<Eddi|zuHause2>JazzyJaffa: route finding is only local, then the commands are issued locally, which then are synched automatically
05:36<JazzyJaffa>ah ok, I see the difference, in water ship pf has to be in sync
05:36<KUDr>so it will be benefit to use free water bits
05:37<KUDr>hylje: check
05:37<KUDr>for auto-road concept proof
05:38<JazzyJaffa>is probably possible, however, I'm not sure that its good to save/load region data. Its more complicated than regenerating it.
05:38<KUDr>it will be saved if you use those free bits
05:39<KUDr>and you don't need to care
05:39<hylje>highlit e route?!
05:39<JazzyJaffa>saved as a number yes, but then you have to build the regions from the numbers in the tiles
05:39<KUDr>hylje: as i said - it is only proof of concept
05:39<JazzyJaffa>I guess its not that hard, just more code
05:40<KUDr>you can build tem normally and just check if they match
05:40<KUDr>because they have to match
05:40<JazzyJaffa>ah-ha that would be better, as otherwise would have to save region "center of mass" somewhere as well
05:41<JazzyJaffa>I think that is best
05:41<KUDr>so don't worry
05:42<JazzyJaffa>bah, just thought of a problem with checking - if regions are updated in game on terraforming, the layout will not be the same as a fresh region find
05:42<Eddi|zuHause2>if you need to store "center of mass" or something similar, you could place a buoy in that region
05:43<JazzyJaffa>2000 bouys on a map??
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05:43<KUDr>why not?
05:44<KUDr>would be nice to see it
05:44<Timwi>NickServ doesn't recognise me, who do I contact about this?
05:44<JazzyJaffa>I can do that as an option anyway
05:44<JazzyJaffa>you're right it could be fun
05:45<JazzyJaffa>have you seen the region screenshot Eddi|zuHause2?
05:45<KUDr>and you can also add 'region id' into tile info '?'
05:46<JazzyJaffa>Yes, good idea, at the moment I'm displaying them with a cargo icon on each tile for debugging!
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05:47<blathijs>12:39 < hylje> highlit e route?! <-- NPF could do that as well, by removing the grass under tracks. Of course that broke totally in multiplayer and at other random moments, since it was an ugly hack :-)
05:48<JazzyJaffa>So I'll just use some of the spare water tile bits for now
05:48<KUDr>blathijs: this is bit different (highlight tool for road planner - roads that don't exist yet)
05:49<JazzyJaffa>hopefully should be finished later today
05:49|-|Timwi changed nick to Timwi-Idle
05:49|-|Timwi-Idle changed nick to Timwi
05:49<Timwi>OK, NickServ works again, thanks :-p
05:49<JazzyJaffa>I need to code for "ship is lost" state aswell
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06:02<Timwi>Do any of you ever organise online games btw?
06:03<Timwi>I would like to be able to watch an expert player play the game -- if that was possible online that would be great
06:14<Smoovious>just check around on the servers... plenty of experts that don't code...
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06:17<Nickman>how do I get the "CompanyIndex" from a given AICompany in the NoAI branch?
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06:18<Rubidium>what do you means with "a given" AICompany?
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06:19<SierraRomeo>good morning
06:19<Smoovious>the one he wants
06:19<Rubidium>Smoovious: but then he needs to have something of that company
06:19<Nickman>I thinkI found i in the enumeration
06:20<Nickman>I have the company object :)
06:20<Rubidium>morning? morning is long gone ;)
06:20<Smoovious>just defining 'a given'
06:21<Nickman>a company object that I have available Smoovious :)
06:21<SierraRomeo>and i thought i can say good morning in every time of day : )
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06:25<SierraRomeo>has anyone ever thought about or tried to code into openttd shunting and train splitting ? i mean like to make engine go somewhere, then order to attach rolling stock (full of coal, eg.) and move it to station, and have it shunted to another train (instead of unloading cargo and loadig it to another train in feeder system)
06:25<Nickman>there is a thread about that somewheren on the forums :)
06:27<SierraRomeo>i can't find it : (
06:27<SierraRomeo>Nickman: don't you rember name of thread ?
06:27<Nickman>not really sorry :s
06:27<Nickman>been a while since I saw it
06:28<SierraRomeo>okay i'll go to find it myself : )
06:29<Nickman>good luck ;)
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06:32<Nickman>why isn't the class "String" used instead of the old C string ? "const char *name" ??
06:32<Smoovious>the source hasn't been fully converted to C++ yet
06:33<Nickman>yeah, I know, but in the NoAI brach (wich is fairly recent?) they also keep using it?
06:33<Noldo>then it's the coder's preference
06:34<Smoovious>the priority isn't converting from C to C++ there
06:34<Nickman>it would be easyer to read and more typesafe ;)
06:34<Smoovious>perhaps, but it hasn't been changed... so it is still the old form
06:35<Nickman>I'm trying to figure out why my AI doesn't get the name I give it :D
06:36<Nickman>second last post
06:38<Nickman>I changed some stuff, lets see if it works now
06:38<Noldo>you are adding int to char*
06:39<Nickman>could be the problem indeed...
06:39<Noldo>it is
06:39<Nickman>that's why I would like some C++ Stirngs instead of C strings
06:39<Noldo>that makes it move the the starting character by i
06:39<Smoovious>so use C++
06:40<Nickman>I am! :p
06:40<Noldo>you can use std::string and .c_str there
06:40<Ailure>My summer is saved
06:40<Ailure>I forgot about it
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06:43<Ailure>I played with it on it's early stages
06:43<Ailure>and forgot about it
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07:06<Nickman>ok, now that the naming is in order for my AI, I need to make it do something :D
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07:28<Nickman>hi Osai :)
07:33<Tlustoch>How do I check if AITileList already contains some Tile?
07:36<Nickman>hi TrueBrain :)
07:36<Tlustoch>Heh. My mistake - it's too hot here.
07:38<Nickman>TrueBrain, could you check the question in my latest post?
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09:55<Progman>why is there a "return (int32)a;" at ClampsToI32() in macros.h? this line can't be reached, can it?
10:01<@peter1138>surely it can
10:03<Progman>dont get it why. either its less 0x80000000 and this value is returned or greater 0x7FFFFFFF and this value is returned. looks like all possible values are catched which these two ifs
10:05<Eddi|zuHause2>Progman: 0x7... is negative
10:05<Eddi|zuHause2>err, no
10:05<Timwi>in which case "less than 0x80000" is always false?
10:06<+glx>no because you clamp an int64
10:06<Eddi|zuHause2>no, a is int64, so if a is very negative, it gets set to the lowest int32
10:06<Eddi|zuHause2>if a is very positive, it gets set to the highest int32
10:06<Eddi|zuHause2>in any other case, the value is returned unchanged
10:06<Progman>aren't there any predefined int-max-min values like MAX_INT and MIN_INT?
10:06<Progman>okay, now it makes sense
10:09<Nickman>glx, you know why in the NoAI branch all the functions are non static but still need parameters like if the function would be static?
10:09<Nickman>For example in ai_town.cpp, when you want to get something from a town, you need to give the TownID
10:09<@peter1138>where did i hide my cvs repo?
10:10<Nickman>but you can't acces these functions in a static way, so you need to make a useless instance of AITown just to be able to acces them?
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10:11<@peter1138>isn't the instance already there?
10:11<@peter1138>it's not like you're making a new town
10:11<Nickman>that's treu, but I cant acces the intance?
10:12<UnderBuilder>aargh I do a patch -p0 patch.diff and the command seems to be freezed
10:12<+glx>you forgot <
10:12<+glx>or -i
10:12<Nickman>All I got is this peter1138 :
10:12<Nickman>and AITownList
10:12<Nickman>there I can get the ID of the town
10:13<UnderBuilder>next step: ./configure :)
10:13<Nickman>but to be able to get the tile of the town for example, I need to make an object of AITown and then call a procedure that should have beens tatic?
10:16<UnderBuilder>now other trouble: I have zlib installed but the ./configure doesn't detect it
10:16<@peter1138>zlib or zlib headers?
10:19<Eddi|zuHause2>probably need zlib-devel
10:25<@TrueBrain>Nickman: some functions are static, some aren't
10:25<@TrueBrain>most of the time, if they are non-static, they need to access 'this'
10:26<@TrueBrain>which mostly means they need to build something or what ever
10:26<@TrueBrain>so yeah, you need to make an instance of AITown and access it, like the regression test shows
10:26<Nickman>so I have to do this to get a location of a town
10:26<Nickman> AITown tempTown;
10:26<Nickman> AITile = tempTown.GetLocation(town);
10:26<Nickman>where town is the ID
10:27<@TrueBrain>GetLocation is static :)
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10:27<@TrueBrain>so: local tile = AITown.GetLocation(town) works :)
10:27<@TrueBrain>(in SQ)
10:27<@TrueBrain>in C++ it is what glx says :)
10:27<Nickman>ah, I see in the header file
10:28<Nickman>sorry, been a while since I've been programming in C++ ;), it's all coming back now :D
10:28<@TrueBrain>also gives the static and non-static ones
10:28<@TrueBrain>it has to be said that some functions are currently non-static while they can be static
10:28<@TrueBrain>like GetMaxTownID and GetTownCount
10:29<+glx>indeed they should be static I think
10:31<Nickman>I'm building a very simple bus station AI :)
10:31<Nickman>well, at least trying to :D
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10:32<+glx>start with intracity lines
10:32<Nickman>yeah, that's my plan ;)
10:32<heythere>been looking through forums, but can't find it, what is the last nightly to include PBS?
10:32<Nickman>For the valulators I use this at the moment
10:32<Nickman> AITownListPopulation tmpValuate;
10:32<Nickman> town_list.Valuate(tmpValuate);
10:32<Nickman>is this correct?
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10:36<+glx>town_list.Valuate(AITownListPopulation()); should work
10:36<UnderBuilder>now when I try to run the game it throws an error that says that the md5 of trg1r.grf is incorrect
10:36<Nickman>I'll try it agian, I think I got a compile error then...
10:36<Nickman>yep, it works :p
10:36<Nickman>thanks ;)
10:37<UnderBuilder>I copied the data files from a usb memory device
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10:43<Nickman>glx, maybe you should add a function that gives you a list of all the town owned tiles?
10:43<Nickman>because you don't know how big the city is... or you have to make a geuss according to the population?
10:45<@TrueBrain>pretty hard to do
10:45<@TrueBrain>currently there is no simple logic to find the radius of a town
10:46<Nickman>you can acces the center tile of the city?
10:46<Nickman>so if you just make it expand around that tile to all sides and check if that tile is stille of the town or not?
10:46<Nickman>you can get the tile number of the center of the town?
10:46<@TrueBrain>but how do you define what is still town :)
10:47<@TrueBrain>yes, GetLocation gives the 'center' of the town
10:47<Nickman>when you use the query function ingame you get the owner of the tile
10:47<Nickman>can't you do that to?
10:47<@TrueBrain>if I have a 2kx2k map
10:47<@TrueBrain>with 2 towns on each side of the map
10:47<@TrueBrain>when does 1 town stop? And when does the other start?
10:47<@TrueBrain>does it depend on if there is still housing?
10:47<+glx>we can get tile owner around center tile
10:48<Nickman>so, when one of thowe tiles is owned by the town, can't you recursivly check that tiles neighbours?
10:48<@TrueBrain>and if you want a list with all the houses owned by a town, that is tricky too, as you ned to browse the whole map to be 100% sure
10:48<Nickman>to see who owns them?
10:48<@TrueBrain>a tunnel can extend a town over several tiles
10:48<@TrueBrain>(a bridge too btw)
10:49<+glx>and house can be over player owned road
10:49<+glx>when town grows
10:49<Nickman>yes, but if you use an expanding algorithm, you can follow all those routes?
10:49<@TrueBrain>it is possible, yes, but will cost a good share of CPU
10:49<@TrueBrain>and then I wonder if it is really that useful
10:49<Nickman>so you won't actually be able to get ALL of the tiles, but you would be able to get a pretty good estimate?
10:49<+glx>town population already gives a good idea of town size
10:50<Nickman>but, in the beginning if I make a bus stop, I could say, look around in a rectange about 30 squares around the center of the town
10:50<Nickman>but when the town starts to grow, you need to increase that number
10:50<@TrueBrain>use something like the sqrt of the population
10:50<Nickman>but then again, this can be done according to the population
10:50<Nickman>would be a good plan I guess ;)
10:50<@TrueBrain>also a good estimate I guess ;)
10:51<Nickman>indeed :)
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11:01<Nickman>is it possible to see how far from the edges a certain TileIndex is?
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11:03<Nickman>:D, cool
11:04<+glx>guess the class that should have the function and check the doc ;)
11:04<Nickman>yeah :)
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11:10<Nickman>so many includes in C++... :p
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11:12<@TrueBrain>Nickman: the API is pretty big, yes :)
11:12<Nickman>yeah :D
11:13<Nickman>with AITileListNeighbourRoadCount I get a number between 0 and 8 I guess?
11:13<@TrueBrain>0 and 4, as the comment tells you
11:13<@TrueBrain>please, do read the documentation
11:13<@TrueBrain>we didn't type all those lines for you to ask them here :p
11:13<Nickman>hehe :d
11:14<Nickman>I am reading the api, and it doesn't say it :s
11:14<Nickman>also in the code it doesn't specify those numbers... :s
11:15<@TrueBrain>it indeed isn't duplicated to AITileList, silly :)
11:15<Nickman>ah :D
11:17<CIA-1>OpenTTD: truelight * r10623 /branches/noai/src/ai/api/ai_tilelist_valuator.hpp: [NoAI] -Documentation: document AITileListNeighbourRoadCount a bit more
11:17<@TrueBrain>how about that :p
11:17<Nickman>hehe :D
11:17<Nickman>thx ;)
11:18<@TrueBrain>if you find more (poorly) documented functions that needs more info, let me know
11:18<Nickman>I will ;)
11:18<Nickman>but documentation is looking good ;)
11:18<@TrueBrain>we did our best
11:18<Nickman>I can see ;)
11:18<@TrueBrain>it is one of the most important things of the whole API
11:20<Digitalfox_Desktop>TrueBrain: You think NoAI will be in 0.6 or still a lot of work witch could take many months ( Of course 0.6 could also take a lot of months to be release )?? :)
11:20<@TrueBrain>Digitalfox_Desktop: completely unknown at this stage
11:21<Nickman>To be able to distribute a C++ AI, you will have to make new binaries right? :)
11:21<@TrueBrain>first we do need to finish ship, train and tunnel support
11:21<Digitalfox_Desktop>yep :)
11:21<@TrueBrain>Nickman: yes
11:21<@TrueBrain>that is why SQ is more powerful for AIs
11:21<Nickman>so, why am I working in C++ again? :D
11:21<Digitalfox_Desktop>Is airplanes NoAI ready? :\
11:21<@TrueBrain>and as it is really simular to C++, I suggest everyone to use SQ over C++
11:22<@TrueBrain>Digitalfox_Desktop: WrightAI is the first working AI example, using airplanes
11:22<@TrueBrain>so, yes
11:22<Digitalfox_Desktop>Oh i thought road vehicles was ready and you were still working in planes :)
11:23<@TrueBrain>no, planes are very much done :)
11:23<@TrueBrain>ships are easy too
11:23<@TrueBrain>trains is looking more easy every day
11:23<@TrueBrain>tunnels is a bitch
11:23<@TrueBrain>and then I have tons of small things that I would like to include
11:23<Nickman>what is so hard about tunnels?
11:23<@TrueBrain>as currently I am working on event-system, and it fails badly :s
11:23<Digitalfox_Desktop>Nice hear :) ( Apart from tunnels hehe )
11:23<Digitalfox_Desktop>*to hear
11:23<@TrueBrain>Nickman: they are black holes...
11:24<@TrueBrain>making it possible to build them is easy
11:24<@TrueBrain>but we also need to make it possible that you guys can use it in a simple way :)
11:24<Nickman>indeed ;)
11:25<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r10624 /trunk/src/ (industry_gui.cpp window.h): -Fix [FS#1047]: the production of banks could not be modified (either in scenario editor or with the cheat).
11:25<@TrueBrain>and currently I need a squirrel expert
11:25<@TrueBrain>(embed squirrel expert)
11:26<Nickman>Can't help you there :D
11:26<KUDr>what exactly is the problem with squirrel now?
11:26<@TrueBrain> { local a = AITest(); }
11:26<@TrueBrain>a is delete at the end, perfect
11:26<@TrueBrain>now I want:
11:26<@TrueBrain>{ local a = AITest.GimmeAClass(); }
11:26<@TrueBrain>to do the same
11:27<@TrueBrain>but AITest is a SQ Class, so it is handled internally
11:27<Nickman>is there a good editor for Squirrel? with some syntaxhiglighting or so? or dousn't it exist? :)
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11:27<@TrueBrain>GimmeAClass() creates a SQ class in C++, but it is pushed to the global stack, not the local....
11:27<@TrueBrain>Nickman: kdevelop supports it
11:27<@TrueBrain>vim too
11:27<Nickman>on windows? :D
11:30<Nickman>you don't have to specifie types in Squirrel I see?
11:30<@TrueBrain>nope, internally converted
11:30<Nickman>like PHP ;)
11:30<@TrueBrain>only a bit more type-checking
11:31<KUDr>GimmeAClass() creates a SQ class in C++, but it is pushed to the global stack, not the local.... << so the local variable 'a' is global then?
11:32<@TrueBrain>ha! Finally found it!
11:32|-|Zr40 [] has joined #openttd
11:32<@TrueBrain>I finally found out how to solve my lovely problem :)
11:32<Nickman>great! :)
11:33<Nickman>I'll be converting my C++ basic AI into Squirrel tomorrow or so :)
11:33<Nickman>I'm off now ;)
11:33|-|Nickman changed nick to Nickman^Away
11:33<@TrueBrain>bye :)
11:33<Nickman^Away>thx for the help so far ;)
11:33<@TrueBrain>np :)
11:35<skidd13>LOL you can build oilrigs on canals
11:35<KUDr>TrueBrain: what is the solution then?
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11:36<@TrueBrain>KUDr: some stack fiddling, and now found the right order of things
11:36<KUDr>yes, SQ and LUA are the same in those stack issues
11:37<@TrueBrain>lack of documentation really is a problem here
11:37<Noldo>KUDr: I wonder if he is cryptic on purpose
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11:38<KUDr>Noldo: who is cryptic?
11:38<@TrueBrain>KUDr: I have the idea I leave tons of things in the stack which I should remove :p
11:38<@TrueBrain>then I read patches of others, and notice tons of things they added :p
11:38<KUDr>yes, true
11:38<@TrueBrain>like sq_settop
11:39<@TrueBrain>I notice it doesn't do something noticable :p
11:39<@TrueBrain>or sq_remove(vm, -2)
11:39<@TrueBrain>okay, it removes an item from the stack, but... I don't notice anything bad of leaving it there either :p
11:39<KUDr>yes, settop is my favourite (it took me long headache in LUA to realize that it is there)
11:39<@TrueBrain>but what it's function is.... no idea :p
11:39<@TrueBrain>okay, I have a good idea
11:40<@TrueBrain>but it mostly works in either case
11:40<KUDr>it should set the stack to the same position as it was when you called gettop
11:40<KUDr>if you use gettop return value for settotp
11:40<@TrueBrain>but as said, it rarely really matters :p
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11:40<@TrueBrain>but okay, I left it alive in most cases
11:40<KUDr>it matters if you call something in a loop
11:41<KUDr>otherwise it grows your stack if not cleaned properly
11:41<@TrueBrain>so someone should check that in NoAI :p
11:42<@TrueBrain>but with settop, using remove seems useless
11:42<KUDr>remove removes just one item and the other one can be used for the next call
11:43<@TrueBrain>oh well, I hope someone with in-depth knowledge will once upon a day walk my code and see what can be improved :)
11:43<@TrueBrain>hi Wolf01
11:43<@TrueBrain>for now, I need to add that counted class stuff
11:43<@TrueBrain>else double-free's suck!
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11:45<@TrueBrain>finally the sound of QMusic is found
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11:55<Chicago_R_A>hello all
11:56<Progman> - so far so good ;)
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12:07<Eddi|zuHause2>shouldn't you rather document complicated functions instead of trivial functions?
12:08<@TrueBrain>trivial functions need documentation too
12:08<@TrueBrain>as they aren't as trivial as you sometimes assume
12:08<@TrueBrain>so I say: good work :)
12:09<Eddi|zuHause2>yeah, i often find people rolling eyes when i say "that is trivial" :p
12:11<Eddi|zuHause2>but a max(a,b) function really should be self-explanatory
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12:12<@Belugas>any kind of GOOD documentation is usefull
12:13<@Belugas>when all the futile and trivial are done, the more complex ones can be done
12:13<CIA-1>OpenTTD: truelight * r10625 /branches/noai/src/ (38 files in 2 dirs): [NoAI] -Fix: returning C++ classes, by creating a temp SQ class, had its problems, this should fix them all (double-frees, wrong scope, ..)
12:13<@Belugas>unless, Eddi|zuHause2, you would like to join this documentation effort, and concentrate on the mind blowing ones :D
12:14<Eddi|zuHause2>fine, then give me a function i should challenge :)
12:15<@Belugas>let me see...
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12:17<Progman>I must document bottom-up as I cannot know how all the other classes/enum/macros works
12:18<Progman>sure, it would be cool if high-level functions can be defined, but I can't ;)
12:20<Progman>where should I add the diffs, at FS or at the forum?
12:21<@Belugas>Eddi|zuHause2, strangely enough, with all the time i've spent on it, i did not care to document industry_cmd.cpp :)
12:21<@Belugas>and there are funny stuff in there :D
12:21<Eddi|zuHause2>Progman: the forum is a bad place for diffs
12:22<Progman>and FS is checked less than the forum, imho :(
12:23<+glx>we get notice for each FS change
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12:23<CIA-1>OpenTTD: miham * r10626 /trunk/src/lang/american.txt:
12:23<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update: WebTranslator2 update to 2007-07-19 19:23:12
12:23<CIA-1>OpenTTD: american - 4 fixed by WhiteRabbit (4)
12:23<Eddi|zuHause2>void ResetIndustryCreationProbility(IndustryType type) <- what is a "Probility"?!?
12:24<Progman>ah, okay
12:24<@Belugas>Eddi|zuHause2: a typo :D
12:24<+glx>probably a typo ;)
12:24<@peter1138>probily a typo ;)
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12:28<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r10627 /trunk/src/lang/ (40 files in 2 dirs): -Fix [FS#1052]: be consistent with the space between the company name and the player number, i.e. always put a space between them.
12:29<CIA-1>OpenTTD: peter1138 * r10628 /trunk/src/ (cargotype.h economy.cpp newgrf.cpp): -Fix (r10606,FS#1055): Revert r10606 and fix the plural problem another way.
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13:44<Chicago_R_A>Rich, are you around?
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13:46<Phazorx>KUDr: yapf/trams thingy was fixed soemwhere between 532 and 620 apparently
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13:46<lolman>oh noes
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13:47<lolman>Sacro, quick hint: the name ben will get you booted ;)
13:47<Sacro>lolman: oh?
13:48<lolman>* Sacro is now known as ben
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13:48<lolman>Twice :P
13:48<Sacro>didn't change that
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13:49<Sacro>i had to reinstall x-chat on my laptop, didn't have it configured correctly
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14:18<KUDr>Phazorx: aha, then ok, better for me :)
14:19<Phazorx>KUDr: i am curious about 532
14:19<Phazorx>cuz behavior there was strange
14:20<Phazorx>and cant find anything in change log that might have affected it
14:20<KUDr>hmm will look there
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14:29<Ammler>actual nighlies are a little bit buggy, does it help something, if we update from 620 to 628?
14:29<Phazorx>i can give yuo save with every vehicles but problem ones stopped
14:29<Phazorx>but it is still huge save with lost of stuff
14:30<Phazorx>on 620 - problem does not exists, trams go where they are supposed to, same happens if yappf is off
14:30<Tlustoch>Water is buildable too? That's quite unexpected.
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14:31<Eddi|zuHause2>Tlustoch: yeah, you can e.g. build bridges there
14:32<Eddi|zuHause2>or docks/buoys
14:32<KUDr>Phazorx: you are right - there are no relevant changes - so it could be problem of compiler - needed make clean and then make
14:32<KUDr>it happens time by time
14:32<Phazorx>did to :)
14:33<Phazorx>both 532 and 620 were mrpropered
14:33<KUDr>then i dunno
14:33<KUDr>do you have that savehame? I can try it on msvc
14:33<Tlustoch>I thought that buildable is meant for land
14:33<KUDr>w/ 10532
14:34<Eddi|zuHause2>i understood that "buildable" means you can do something with it without clearing first
14:34<Eddi|zuHause2>if you can do, what you want, is another question
14:35<Tlustoch>IMHO this concept is quite bad. You should make one for water/road/rail.
14:36<Phazorx>KUDr: i can serve actually
14:36<KUDr>server w/ 10532 ?
14:37<Phazorx>err... with some effort yes :)
14:37<KUDr>i have other patches applied here
14:37<KUDr>(acceleration, etc.)
14:37<KUDr>do you have savegame?
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14:38<Phazorx>RVs 304,404,405 are the problem ones
14:39<Phazorx>308 and 407 had same issue but Rubi's workaround helped them
14:39<Phazorx>he suggested skiping station once
14:39<Phazorx>and these started finding their way just fine
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14:40<KUDr>then it is not yapf issue
14:40<KUDr>yapf is stateless
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14:40<KUDr>changing something in orders can only change vehicle state
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14:40<Eddi|zuHause2>unless it's a cache issue
14:41<KUDr>it is weird if it helps to switch yapf off
14:41<KUDr>no cache for RVs
14:41<KUDr>only for trains
14:41<Phazorx>KUDr: rubidium said the same thing
14:42<Phazorx>and since it fixed 2 other trams i assumed they have other issue
14:42<SpComb>Logs: (old: )
14:42<Phazorx>strange thing - before switching yapf on i had no RVs with negative inxome
14:42<KUDr>yapf is sending your money to my account :)
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14:43<CIA-1>OpenTTD: truelight * r10629 /branches/noai/src/ai/api/ (36 files): [NoAI] -Fix: on returning a class instance which is NULL, do not make a wrapper SQ, but return a NULL pointer too
14:43[~]Phazorx fires his accountant
14:44<KUDr>404 must have this error
14:44<KUDr>it is HTTP error code for missing target
14:48<KUDr>Phazorx: your savegame seems to work fine (including those trams) on 10532
14:49<KUDr>so the problem must be on your computer
14:49<Phazorx>KUDr: these particular ones?
14:49<KUDr>or between monitor and chair
14:49<Phazorx>rubidium observed same on his :/
14:49<KUDr>both work well
14:49<Phazorx>and suggested bugging you
14:49<KUDr>so then it is linux/gcc issue maybe
14:50<KUDr>i am testing it on winxp/vc8
14:50<Phazorx>i'm on win32
14:50<KUDr>and compiler?
14:50<Phazorx>gcc 3.3.4
14:50<KUDr>try vc8
14:50<Phazorx>last time compiler issue turned into 10491 :|
14:50<Phazorx>dont have it
14:50<KUDr>and watch those trams
14:50<KUDr>download it
14:50<KUDr>it is free
14:50<Phazorx>i know :)
14:51<@TrueBrain>use nightly?
14:51<KUDr>it is much better than your vim
14:51<Phazorx>hell no
14:51<@TrueBrain>(as in: nightly compiled binary :p)
14:52<Phazorx>TrueBrain: after 10295-10491 desyncs i trust my gcc 3.3.4 :)
14:52<@TrueBrain>We don't :)
14:52<Phazorx>well it was working as rests, who used nighty offical one were desyncing
14:53<blathijs>21:51 < KUDr> it is much better than your vim <-- how can there be anything better than vim?
14:53<blathijs>apart from chocolate, of course
14:53<Phazorx>KUDr: i cant say i favor vim much but i dont like IDE in general
14:54<KUDr>yes, it is only question of taste
14:54<Phazorx>so not to be used in argument :)
14:54<KUDr>i am stupid mouse clicking windoze user
14:54<KUDr>so VC8 fits better to my hands
14:54<Prof_Frink>blathijs: emac-aaaargh
14:54<Phazorx>my text editor is mouse friendly as well
14:55<KUDr>Phazorx: i wanted to motivate you to test it
14:55<KUDr>or i can give you my binary
14:55<Phazorx>that actualy sounds good
14:55<Phazorx>dcc plz
14:55<KUDr>ok, wait
14:55<Phazorx>dont need langs
14:55<Phazorx>i'm compiling 532 anyway
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14:57<KUDr>ok, you have it
14:57<Phazorx>thansk you
14:57<KUDr>don't thank we are hunting my bug probably
14:58<KUDr>so i am thankfull
14:58<@peter1138>the word is 'please'
14:58<KUDr>word for what?
14:58<KUDr>sorry for my stupidity
14:59<@peter1138>not you :)
14:59<KUDr>it is quite common
15:00<Phazorx>petere you should avoid using smiles too
15:00<KUDr>only conservative british don't like it
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15:00<Prof_Frink>Do I look like a fscking Tory?
15:00<Phazorx>replace it with "i am delighted to say so, and my face is shining with positive emotions"
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15:01<blathijs>plz is for people who dislike typing
15:01<KUDr>like me :)
15:01<blathijs>and as I said, I like vim, so I use "please" :-)
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15:01<KUDr>so i understood well
15:01<@Belugas>hey, i'm not british, and "plz" seems to me like a big error...
15:01<Phazorx>blathijs: you are probably also offended by me doing "bla<tab>" to type your name :)
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15:02<blathijs>ph<tab> no
15:02<Phazorx>i dont like typing... i think humans must really come up with way more advanced ways of sharing information
15:03<Prof_Frink>And I bet you hate me copy-pasting every character from somewhere else on the screen
15:03<Phazorx>cuz language, especialy verbal is lacking :)
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15:03<Phazorx>imho, trext is just a form of communication and as long as it is understandable - server this purpose just right
15:04<Phazorx>"plz" is very quick to type and i can save time to state soemthing mroe important like this nonesense :)
15:04<Prof_Frink>Phazorx: Just enable tab-completion from /usr/dict/words
15:04<KUDr>and i see it everywhere
15:04<KUDr>also in emails
15:04<Prof_Frink>KUDr: Just because it's common doesn't mean it's right
15:05<KUDr>what is right?
15:05<KUDr>that what people understand
15:05<Phazorx>"Just because it is common does not mean it is right"
15:05<Prof_Frink>I mean, there's loads of French people in France. Doesn't mean it's OK to be French.
15:05<Rippsy>Proper spelling and punctuation in emails is nice, on irc punctuation and grammer are dropped, but spelling should remain at least mostly right
15:05<KUDr>language is way to communicate
15:05<KUDr>and it develops
15:05<@peter1138>ah, the old "develop" excuse for being a lazy shit
15:05<Rippsy>on a mobile phone where its price per character used, i can see why people abbrivate so much
15:06<Rippsy>KUDr, development is usually helpful, 'txt spk' is not helpful
15:06<Phazorx>this is phonetical issue
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15:06<Phazorx>unfortunately most language use symbols that represent letters rather than sounds
15:07<@peter1138>"plz" does not sound like "please"
15:07<Prof_Frink>peter1138: pls is worse.
15:07<Prof_Frink>It sounds like a proprietary playlist format
15:07<Phazorx>peter1138: it does sound close enough to me :)
15:07<@peter1138>actually i'd prefer pls. it is at least the right letters.
15:07<KUDr>czech lang has exact phonetic rules for letters - you don't need to know the word but you can read it right
15:08<KUDr>english is terrible opposite of it
15:08<@peter1138>you probably think "your" and "you're" sound the same too
15:08<Prof_Frink>English has that too
15:08<Phazorx>KUDr: all slavianic langiuages do
15:08<Phazorx>you can read outloud w/o undesrstanding it
15:08<Prof_Frink>Just we have exceptoions. And lots of them.
15:08<KUDr>only exceptions
15:08<KUDr>no rules at all
15:08<Rippsy>I quite like english structure
15:08<Phazorx>KUDr: but i bet there are stil lsome things that have to be read/written in certain way
15:09<KUDr>don't think so
15:09<Prof_Frink>peter1138: Did you see the thing on the BBC news about teaching fucked-up english because kids are too dumb to learn properly?
15:09<Rippsy>KUDr, there are many rules defining the constructs of an english sentance (many of which I neglect)
15:09<KUDr>you always read what you see
15:09<Rippsy>Prof_Frink, i saw that - classic
15:09<Phazorx>KUDr: modal verbs variations are most common case
15:09<Eddi|zuHause2><Prof_Frink> And I bet you hate me copy-pasting every character from somewhere else on the screen <- sometimes i have it that an application freezes and eats all keyboard input (even virtual keyboard, i tried), so i have to use the mouse and a console window to kill that app (in the case i can find out which one)
15:09<KUDr>Rippsy: phonetical rules for letters
15:09<KUDr>totally missing - only exceptions
15:10<KUDr>whole english
15:10<KUDr>now and know
15:10<Phazorx>hebrew and farsi are good example of letter savings
15:10<Prof_Frink>Eddi|zuHause2: I just turn on another computer, SSH in and killall -9 the offending app
15:10<Rippsy>Those are pronounced differently
15:10<Eddi|zuHause2>yeah, english speaking and english writing have absolutely nothing in common
15:10<Phazorx>as well as old slavianic langueges
15:10<Rippsy>"know" is pronounced "no"
15:10<Phazorx>that skip vowels in writings
15:11<KUDr>know ind czech would be the same as k-now
15:11<KUDr>exactly same except missing k in 'now'
15:11<@peter1138>laughter. daughter.
15:11<KUDr>but english have them totally different
15:11<Eddi|zuHause2>the only language that is worse in that is french
15:11<Prof_Frink>peter1138: ghoti
15:11<KUDr>same for letter 'i'
15:11<KUDr>several ways how to read it
15:12<KUDr>and many others
15:12<Rippsy>same for most languages based on latin though?
15:12<KUDr>so only exceptions and no rules
15:12<Eddi|zuHause2>Rippsy: no, italian is spoken almost exaclty like it is written
15:12<KUDr>but latin itself is not so
15:12<Prof_Frink>KUDr: There is one rule:
15:12<Rippsy>I said most, not all ;)
15:12<@peter1138>latin is not spoken :)
15:12<Phazorx>yeah.. dissociation of letters and soudns arent very helpful
15:12<Prof_Frink>We are right. You are wrong.
15:12<Eddi|zuHause2>spanish is similar to italian
15:13<Rippsy>There's plenty of exceptions in spanish (at least I seemed to find them when I tried to learn it)
15:13<@orudge>We should all speak Icelandic.
15:13<Eddi|zuHause2>although it has some strange exceptions
15:13<Rippsy>lol orudge
15:13<Phazorx>toki pona ftw
15:13<KUDr>so 'right' means 'confusing'
15:13<Phazorx>or at least esperanto :)
15:13<Eddi|zuHause2>(like "Gibraltar")
15:13<Eddi|zuHause2>but those are easy, too, and have some logic behind them, if you know them
15:13<@orudge>Eg flýt um i neðarsjávar hýði a hóteli beintengdur við rafmagnstöfluna og nærist.
15:13<Prof_Frink>quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur
15:14<Rippsy>I don't have the font set for that orudge
15:14<Rippsy>all that does is hurt my eyes :D
15:14<Rippsy>Prof_Frink, do I even want to know what that translates too?
15:14<@orudge>They're standard "Western European" characters, although encoded in UTF-8 of course.
15:14<Phazorx>Rippsy: it looks like that language have at least twioce as many eltters as english
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15:14<Prof_Frink>Rippsy: Whatever is said in Latin sounds profound
15:14<Rippsy>not many languages you can say that about Phazorx ;D
15:15<Rippsy>I find english more logical then dutch at least..
15:15<Rippsy>but then i've never been one for languages as a strong point
15:15<Rippsy>have enough issues with english :)
15:15<Eddi|zuHause2>i find english more stupid than german
15:15<Rippsy>I always had a lot of trouble with tenses in german
15:15<Prof_Frink>Rippsy: There's a reason for the phrase "Double dutch"
15:15<Rippsy>not just me then
15:16<Eddi|zuHause2>the basic rules of english are very simple, but you get an awful lot of exceptions with them
15:16<Rippsy>I'd agree with that
15:16<Eddi|zuHause2>the basic rules in german are more complex, but exceptions are much rarer
15:16<@orudge>Mig langar að skera og rista sjálfan mig á hol! :(
15:16<Rippsy>also true
15:16<Rippsy>I found sentance construction in german almost impossible
15:16<Prof_Frink>orudge: You take that back.
15:17<Eddi|zuHause2>sentence construction in german is an art :)
15:17<Rippsy>A nessecery or overly complex art though?
15:17<Eddi|zuHause2>you can write whole books in one sentence, and the last word totally changes the meaning of the first :)
15:17<KUDr>but is similar to czech (which is otherwise totally different)
15:18<Prof_Frink>Eddi|zuHause2: At least they don't write whole books in one word any more
15:18<KUDr>also other stupid things are the same (du/sie)
15:18<Rippsy>christ ok im just gonna drop this and go back to monging out, im no where near knowledgable about languages other then english let alone english to put up a decent argument, especially when im not even sure what we are arguinga bout, since as far as I could tell it was about the brutalisation of english into abbrivated language
15:19<@orudge>Móðir vor sem ert á jörðu, heilagt veri nafn þitt.
15:19<@orudge>I have no idea what the argument is about, either.
15:19[~]orudge is simply quoting Icelandic
15:19<@orudge>because Icelandic is fun
15:20<Rippsy>Right im going back to my film
15:21<Prof_Frink>orudge: I can speak icelandic too:
15:21<Prof_Frink>"Buy one pack of burgers, get one free!"
15:22<@orudge>I don't like Iceland.
15:22<@orudge>They're sexist! Suggesting you have to be a mum to shop there, or whatnot!
15:22<@peter1138>does the DEVIL want to FUCK YOU in the back of his CAR?
15:22<@orudge>peter1138: no, that's Prof_Frink.
15:23<Eddi|zuHause2>this is like the most famous (or at least one of) "Schachtelsatz" from german literature: "Mitnichten hat die Nase meiner Wirtin, deren Namen Eulalia, wie Sie die Güte, sich zu erinnern, hatten, lautet, geblutet, aber mich hatte morgens die Polizei, da ein Fahrrad, das ein Mann, der eine graue Jacke, die vielfach geflickt war, trug, fuhr, mit einem Auto, das auf der Strasse, die über die Geleise, die vom Bahnhof, der unmittelbar bei
15:23<Eddi|zuHause2>meiner Wohnung liegt, kommen, führt, entlangkam, zusammenstiess, gebeten, meine Beobachtungen als Zeuge zu Protokoll zu geben."
15:25<Prof_Frink>* Eddi|zuHause2 collapses from exhaustion
15:25<Eddi|zuHause2>(it's from Dieter Noll - "Die Abenteuer des Werner Holt")
15:25<Eddi|zuHause2>no, that's an easy one, you don't collapse from that...
15:25<Eddi|zuHause2>actually, the guy in the book collapses after finishing that sentence, but because he was sick :p
15:28<Eddi|zuHause2>another one: "Sprich mit langen, langen Sätzen - solchen, bei denen du, der du dich zu Hause, wo du ja die Ruhe, deren du so sehr benötigst, deiner Kinder ungeachtet, hast, vorbereitest, genau weisst, wie das Ende ist, die Nebensätze schön ineinander geschachtelt, so dass der Hörer, ungeduldig auf seinem Sitz hin und her träumend, sich in einem Kolleg wähnend, in dem er früher so gern geschlummert hat, auf das Ende solcher
15:28<Eddi|zuHause2>Periode wartet...nun, ich habe dir eben ein Beispiel gegegeben. So musst du sprechen."
15:28<Eddi|zuHause2>(Kurt Tucholsky - "Ratschläge für einen schlechten Redner" [Advise for a bad speaker])
15:29[~]Prof_Frink recites Vogon poetry at Eddi|zuHause2
15:30<ln->speaking of famoous people, we often forget Johann Gambolputty-de-von-Ausfern-schplenden-schlitter-crass-cren-bon-fried-digger-dingle-dangle-dongle-dungle-burstein-von-knacker-thrasher-apple-banger-horowitz-ticolensic-grander-knotty-spelltinkle-grandlich-grumblemeyer-spelter-wasser-kurstlich-himble-eisenbahnwagen-guten-abend-bitte-ein-nürnburger-bratwürstel-gespurten-mitz-weimache-luber-hundsfut-gumeraber-schönendanker-kalbsfleisch-mittleraucher-von-Hautkopft of U
15:32<rav>yea we do :o
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15:32<rav>it's either forgetting to mention him
15:32<rav>or the fact that he might not be worth mentioning
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15:32<Eddi|zuHause2>yeah, and Karl Ranseier is dead
15:34<Eddi|zuHause2> <- examples of "Karl Ranseier ist tot" messages :)
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15:37<Eddi|zuHause2>it was a running joke in a german tv comedy series, they generally start like "Karl Ranseier is dead, the probably most unsuccessfull <insert random profession here> of all times. <insert totally rediculous description of the profession here>"
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15:38<@TrueBrain>WrightAI: [INFO] We have a crashed vehicle (1038), buying a new one as replacement
15:38<@TrueBrain>WrightAI: [INFO] Done building an aircraft
15:38<@TrueBrain>How cool is that!
15:40<Prof_Frink>TrueBrain: Does it build two small airports in two villages about 10 squares apart, neither of which accept mail, and then build 20 747s to service them?
15:40<@TrueBrain> <- even more profit :)
15:41<@TrueBrain>Prof_Frink: no
15:41<Eddi|zuHause2>"Dear Mrs. XYZ, we regret to inform you that your husband died in a plane crash at ABC Airport. We already ordered a replacement airplane for the route, hope you will fly with us again."
15:41<Eddi|zuHause2>"Vote Quimby."
15:41<@TrueBrain>it took 900 lines of C++ code to make it possible to detect aircraft crashes :p
15:42<ln->TrueBrain: is there a significance in that the date is september 11th?
15:42<@TrueBrain>only in your mind
15:42<Eddi|zuHause2>900 lines? you only have to hook into the messaging system, or not?
15:42<@TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause2: and create the message system towards the AIs
15:42<@TrueBrain> <- FYI :p
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15:51<Eddi|zuHause2>"Karl Ranseier died for example of [...] trying to divide himself by zero." <- he's like an inverse chuck norris :)
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16:36<MUcht>once again, our servers reached max_clients :-(
16:38<@TrueBrain>poor MUcht
16:38<MUcht>poor #openttdcoop
16:38<MUcht>I'm in, gladly
16:38<@TrueBrain>you should start randomly kick people :p
16:39<rav>yea, people like getting booted :)
16:39<MUcht>kick the worst and/or best constructor maybe
16:40<@TrueBrain>or of course make a patch :)
16:40<MUcht>we need an ingame-applet with a voting-system - everyone can vote a player to be kicked and banned for 30 minutes
16:42<Prof_Frink>MUcht: Better, and admin/oper window that allows you to fine/disable companies
16:42<Prof_Frink>disabling would essentially make the owner temorarily a spectator
16:42<@TrueBrain>I see a patch coming up :)
16:43<Prof_Frink>Am not coder
16:46<MUcht>Prof_Frink: we gain 10 spectators in that case
16:46<MUcht>I don't think thats the perfect solution
16:47<Prof_Frink>Well, it could also have "kick player" and "remove company" buttons
16:48<MUcht>how about a "increase max_clients" button?
16:48<Prof_Frink>That's crazytalk
16:48<XeryusTC>why annoy the devs here, when they got a dedicated channel ;)
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17:26<CIA-1>OpenTTD: truelight * r10630 /branches/noai/src/ai/api/ (4 files): [NoAI] -Fix: allow enums to not have a predefined value for Squirrel
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17:39<CIA-1>OpenTTD: truelight * r10631 /branches/noai/ (20 files in 7 dirs): [NoAI] -Add: AIEvent, to take care of events; for now it only reports when vehicles are crashed
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17:41<CIA-1>OpenTTD: truelight * r10632 /branches/noai/src/ai/api/ai_event.hpp: [NoAI] -Documentation: fix the documentation for AIEvent Constructor
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17:50<Thardas>anyone may quickly know what diff_level i have to set for custom diff?
17:50<Thardas>ah thanks :)
17:50<Thardas>so 0 is easy, 1 mid and 2 hard i guess?
17:51<Thardas>okay thx :>
17:51<Thardas>ima write it down into the wiki so i can look it up on any time heh
17:56<Thardas>ah by the way.. is EUR the valid value for the european currency?
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18:01<CIA-1>OpenTTD: truelight * r10633 /branches/noai/ (9 files in 3 dirs):
18:01<CIA-1>OpenTTD: [NoAI] -Add: added GetVehicleType and AIVehicle::VehicleType
18:01<CIA-1>OpenTTD: [NoAI] -Codechange: use 'vehicle', not 'town' in AIVehicleListValuator ;)
18:01<CIA-1>OpenTTD: [NoAI] -Fix: don't output pointers in regression as they change on systems and runs
18:02<Eddi|zuHause2>src/settings.cpp:1308: SDT_OMANY(GameOptions, currency, SLE_UINT8, N, 0, 0, CUSTOM_CURRENCY_ID, "GBP|USD|EUR|YEN|ATS|BEF|CHF|CZK|DEM|DKK|ESP|FIM|FRF|GRD|HUF|ISK|ITL|NLG|NOK|PLN|ROL|RUR|SIT|SEK|YTL|SKK|BRR|custom", STR_NULL, NULL, NULL), <- does that answer your question?
18:02<Thardas>thx :)
18:03<Thardas>it does
18:03<+glx>and you are allowed to put it on the wiki ;)
18:04<Thardas>yea ima put it on a soon as i'm ready with my servers :D
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18:06<Eddi|zuHause2>PS: grep currency src/settings.*
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18:10<CIA-1>OpenTTD: truelight * r10634 /branches/noai/src/ai/api/ai_vehicle.hpp: [NoAI] -Documentation: of course I forgot to document the VehicleType enum
18:15<Thardas>Finally all servers work :D
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18:28<OzBabe>hi all
18:28<Thardas><all> hi OzBabe
18:29<OzBabe>hi that
18:29<OzBabe>ty, i need some help with running aprogram plz
18:29<Thardas>come again :P
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18:31<OzBabe>huh???, i only just got here, giggles
18:37<OzBabe>Dale, you here plz????
18:37<Thardas>phew... i did the whole thing about currency..
18:37<Thardas>but now you all got a nice page more in your wiki :D
18:37<Thardas>you haven't lost your sence of humor, OzBabe
18:38<OzBabe>nope, lol
18:38<Thardas>what's the problem?
18:38<Thardas>well there is :D
18:38<Thardas>at least in the open ttd wiki thingy
18:38<OzBabe>i downloaded grf codec and grf wiz progrogram
18:38<+glx>Thardas: nice page :)
18:38<Thardas>thx :>
18:39<OzBabe>i can get the wizard to run
18:39<OzBabe>but not the codec
18:39<OzBabe>when i try to point the wizard to the codec it wont show up
18:40<OzBabe><<<Scratches head at programming things, lol
18:41<Eddi|zuHause2>you might have more luck at the patch channel...
18:43<Eddi|zuHause2>hm, that is weird... according to a study therer are 162 million people with internet connection in china, but only 67 million computers...
18:43<+glx>!calc 162/67
18:43<Thardas>glx, result is: 2.41791
18:43<_42_>glx: 2.4179104477;
18:44<+glx>too much bots in this channel :)
18:44<OzBabe>hey, im not a bot,:))
18:45<OzBabe>well, last time i checked i was'nt anyways, :))
18:45<+glx>Thardas: can you disable your !calc script for this channel please
18:45<Digitalfox_Desktop>whats the adress of patch channel?
18:45<Thardas>sec.. ima go on my mirc on my comp..
18:45<Thardas>i was just online on my rootserver cuz i was working over here
18:45<Thardas>:D brb
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18:47<Thardas>ok i'm back
18:47<Thardas>with my bnc *lol*
18:50<Eddi|zuHause2>hm, this stupid client does not understand /join 0 :p
18:50<Digitalfox_Desktop>How can i be connected to different irc networks at the same time?? Like being connected to Quakenet #tycoon and still be in openttd channel?
18:51<colle>depends on the irc-client
18:51<Digitalfox_Desktop>Well i use Chatzilla
18:52<Eddi|zuHause2>and i don't
18:52<colle>no idea :(
18:52<colle>use a proper irc-client :)
18:52<Digitalfox_Desktop>like what?
18:52<colle>irssi, mirc, xchat
18:53<Digitalfox_Desktop>You can be connected to different networks in mirc?? ( i'm not talking about channels in the same network )
18:53<+glx>chatzilla should be able to do that too
18:55<Digitalfox_Desktop>glx: I'm reading it's faq, and it's possible, but with some commands i'm trying right now..
18:55<OzBabe>ok cya all l8trs, hugz n luv, Leanne
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18:58<Eddi|zuHause2>did anybody understand that line?
18:59<+glx>looks like a forum post ;)
19:00<colle>but if it was a forum post it would have been followed with "omg asl?"
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20:10<Thardas>Digitalfox_Desktop i jus got dc'd.. is your question allready answered?
20:11<Digitalfox_Desktop>yeah :)
20:11<Thardas>thought so lol
20:12<Thardas>anyways.. gotta watch those lev3 trains.. they're so freaking fast.. i'm scared they crash since i'm a little noobish building 2 trains on one rail *g*
20:12<Thardas>afk :D
20:12<Digitalfox_Desktop>Nothing like reading the RTM ..
20:13<Digitalfox_Desktop>bed time
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---Logclosed Fri Jul 20 00:00:25 2007