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#openttd IRC Logs for 2007-07-30

---Logopened Mon Jul 30 00:00:00 2007
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03:50<CIA-1>OpenTTD: peter1138 * r10734 /trunk/src/ (rail_cmd.cpp train_cmd.cpp vehicle.cpp): -Fix [FS#1030]: Revert r10513) and add special cases for collision detection on bridges/tunnels.
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03:53<Ammler>oh peter1138, signal bug now fixed?
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03:53<Ammler>btw, good morning all
03:53<@peter1138>probably
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03:54<Ammler>we will update...
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05:24<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r10735 /branches/0.5/ (oldloader.c openttd.c): [0.5] -Fix [FS#1062]: trains being split into two pieces when loading an old savegame.
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06:14<TheJosh>hey all
06:15<TheJosh>hows everyone going?
06:18<TheJosh>would anyone be able to help me with a tiny problem?
06:18<TheJosh>http://paste.openttd.org/193 (sorry about the @@s)
06:18<TheJosh>i would like each item in the array to be unique... but im not quite sure how, as you dont use new on a struct
06:21<Zr40>TheJosh: place the @@ at the beginning of each line, not after the indentation
06:23<TheJosh>i noticed that afterwards...sorry
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06:28<TheMask96>!logs
06:28<SpComb>Logs: http://spbot.marttila.de:8120/logs/oftc-ottd (old: http://zapotek.paivola.fi/~terom/logs/openttd )
06:30<TheJosh>Zr40: do you know how I can do this? i know it must be a very simple thing to do
06:30<TheJosh>i just havent been working with c++ for very long
06:30<Zr40>looks like C to me
06:31<TheJosh>OpenTTD is coded in C++, but a lot of the code is still c-style
06:31<Zr40>so... you got an array of a struct?
06:32<TheJosh>i got it
06:32<TheJosh>i think
06:32<Zr40>define 'unique'
06:33<Noldo>TheJosh: there's nothing stoping you from using new with struct
06:34<TheJosh>ok
06:34<TheJosh>so in c++, the border between a struct and a class is fuzzy?
06:35<Rubidium>no, the border between struct and class is very clear
06:35<TheJosh>but you can use new on both a struct and a class?
06:35<Maedhros>you can use new with anything that you can use malloc with
06:35<Noldo>the only difference is that the with struct te default is public and with class its pirvate
06:35<Noldo>*private
06:36<Rubidium>Noldo: exactly, which is a very clear border IMO
06:36<Noldo>ugh
06:37<TheJosh>ah ok i get it now
06:38<Rubidium>though I wonder what you are trying to accomplish
06:39<TheJosh>cant tell (till the patch is done)
06:39<TheJosh>actually I will because its almost done
06:39<Rubidium>anyway, it leaks memory like hell
06:39<Noldo>:D
06:39<@peter1138>moo?
06:40<TheJosh>what
06:40<Rubidium>or rather, it doesn't at this moment, but the behaviour is totally broken
06:40<TheJosh>nah im not going the new path
06:40<TheJosh>ok my patch will be called "Named Shared Orders"
06:40<TheJosh>with a list like the sign list
06:40<Rubidium>and looking at the code I've got the idea it will leak like hell
06:41<Rubidium>and it allocates way way too much memory
06:41<TheJosh>im only mimicing whats already there
06:41<TheJosh>i know. i was trying to think of a better way of calculating, without a full check
06:42<TheJosh>i could go the last known figure, say plus somehting, but that could break bigtime
06:43<Rubidium>not if you allocate more memory when you do not have enough of it
06:43<TheJosh>like how Loading Indicators had a dynamic array
06:45<TheJosh>whats your thoughts on the idea overall (named shared orders)
06:45<Rubidium>I don't get the benefit over groups
06:46<TheJosh>can you set orders to a group?
06:47<Rubidium>if all vehicles in the group have the same shared order you can (just select one of the trains)
06:47[~]peter1138 ponders lunchification
06:47<TheJosh>i was thinking it could complment groups
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06:48<TheJosh>so you can have the group 'goods trains' but have the nso 'main factory to slenburg'
06:49<TheJosh>rather than having hundreds of groups with 5 trains in them
06:49<Rubidium>then it would probably better to make meta-groups
06:49<TheJosh>i was also going to have itso you can click the 'go to' button, and then click on a group in the list and the train would join that group
06:49<Rubidium>-+ goods trains
06:50<TheJosh>just like if you ctrl-clicked a train
06:50<Rubidium> +- main factory to X
06:50<Rubidium> +- main factory to Y
06:50<TheJosh>subgroups
06:50<Rubidium>yes, something like that
06:50<TheJosh>i only went down the shared orders path because people use shared orders anyway
06:51<TheJosh>if you could just dump a name on a shared order, it saves you creating a group and assigning a group
06:51<TheJosh>and plainly, at this time its still quicker and easier to set up a shared order. ctrl-click a train. faster than making groups
06:52<TheJosh>groups encourage organisation. shared orders encourage geting the job done. thus groups are better for big numbers of trains and shared orders for small numbers of trains
06:52<Rubidium>a lot of people do not use shared orders
06:53<Noldo>and a lot of peopöe do?
06:53<Rubidium>and setting up groups is not that much extra work
06:53<TheJosh>i was also sort of hoping with this patch to encourage shared orders. i think people just dont know about them. i didnt know about them until i descovered them. now I use nothing else
06:53<Noldo>I need new fingers :(
06:54<Ammler>hmm, does trains with shared orders automatically belong to same group?
06:54<TheJosh>huh? why?
06:54<TheJosh>nope
06:54<Ammler>but that would be cool, wouldn't?
06:54<TheJosh>there is a button thats been added recently to add traisn that are shared
06:54<Rubidium>Ammler: yes and no; if you add one train with shared order it is not, but it's one click away. If you clone a vehicle that is in a group, the cloned vehicle is in that group too
06:54<TheJosh>but you would have do click that one each time you added a train to the shared order
06:54<Rubidium>TheJosh: that button was there since the begin
06:55<TheJosh>opps, didnt notice :P
06:55<Ammler>Rubidium: thats good, imo
06:55<TheJosh>Ammler: would you use named shared orders?
06:55<Rubidium>TheJosh: and when people want to autoreplace on the shared orders?
06:56<Rubidium>then you tell them to make a group and autoreplace that?
06:56<Ammler>in past we named all ICE to know how much trains go from a to b
06:56<Ammler>now, we can make groups
06:56<Ammler>thats a lot easier
06:56<TheJosh>i only started making this patch because of this game i have been playing during lunchtime at work
06:57<Ammler>and if you clone a train where is already in a group, i think its fine
06:57<TheJosh>and at one point, i accideently ctrl-clicked on the wrong train, and then stuffed up the order. then i did it again to another train.
06:57<Ammler>TheJosh: to anwer your question, I think rather no
06:58<TheJosh>and i thouht it would be cool to be able to name the group and click on it in a list instead. then i get just the right nso
06:58<Ammler>but how difficult is it to give with shared order also the same group?
06:58<TheJosh>ah yes, but that requires a clone, which means stopping a train
06:58<Rubidium>trains need to be stopped to be cloned?
06:59<Ammler>:)
06:59<TheJosh>in a depo if i last remember
06:59<Ammler>no
06:59<TheJosh>really?
06:59<Ammler>yep
06:59<Rubidium>that sucks, must be doing something wrong when I cloned those running trains
06:59<TheJosh>the clone train button is a 'goto depo' button
06:59<Rubidium>click on depot, in the middle at the bottom
07:00<Ammler>you have a clone train button in the depot window
07:00<TheJosh>learn somehting new every day
07:01<Ammler>Rubidium: is it needed to have different groups for trains where sharing the orders?
07:01<Rubidium>no
07:02<Ammler>so my idea would be: share also group when sharing orders
07:02<Rubidium>groups are (currently) per vehicle, not per order
07:03<Rubidium>Ammler: you can do that, but it is not necessary
07:03<Ammler>but less complicated for managing
07:03<Rubidium>you could for example have some tourist steam trains going between towns and maglev passenger trains with the same orders
07:03<Rubidium>do you want them ALWAYS to be in the same group?
07:04<Rubidium>if shared orders == same group that would be the case
07:04<Ammler>I wouldnt also share the orders
07:04<Rubidium>but now the choice is yours
07:04<Ammler>Rubidium: yeah, its fine :)
07:06<Ammler>Anyway, the group thing did make our (#openttdcoop) ICE naming thing much easier
07:06<Ammler>that was a pain in past so most didn't do it right
07:07<Ammler>well, most don't it right now, still. ;)
07:07<Ammler>hmm, was that english?
07:07<Rubidium>ban them ;)
07:08<Rubidium>at least I'm sure I've never done it wrong ;)
07:08<Ammler>you mean, we should ban XeryusTC?
07:08<XeryusTC>huh?
07:08<Ammler>:D
07:09<Ammler>that was fast
07:09<XeryusTC>ofcourse :P
07:09<Ammler>XeryusTC: do you know our new ICE naming system?
07:09<Rubidium>XeryusTC: seems you failed your OTTDcoop ICE train management exam
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07:10<XeryusTC>there are 4 different systems :P
07:10<XeryusTC>and i seem to be the only one that cares about proper names :P
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08:07<alex_>is there a RSS feed of the online servers?
08:09<Progman>what kind of rss should this be?
08:10<Rubidium>the useless kind I guess
08:10<alex_>or a XML dump i could for the
08:10<alex_>http://www.openttd.org/servers.php
08:10<@peter1138>RSS is for 'news' aggregation
08:10<@peter1138>servers come and go
08:11<alex_>my bad
08:11<Progman>you can query the metaserver ;)
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08:12<alex_>right
08:12<alex_>also
08:12<alex_>max_trains variable
08:12<alex_>is that per user or a max server setting?
08:12<@peter1138>it's per user, but it's a server setting
08:13<alex_>sorry i ment, its that a global server setting rather than per user
08:13<alex_>thanks,
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08:36<CIA-1>OpenTTD: peter1138 * r10736 /trunk/src/ (6 files in 2 dirs): -Fix: Correct all mispellings of 'successful'.
08:36<hylje>:o
08:36<hylje>pedantry commit
08:37<@peter1138>yes
08:37<Rubidium>successfulll :O
08:37<@peter1138>yes
08:37<alex_>2062201] Client #71 is slow, try increasing *net_frame_freq to a higher value!
08:37<alex_>what does this mean?
08:37<alex_>what does net_frame_freq do?
08:38<@peter1138>i means client #71 is slow, and you should try increasing net_frame_freq to a higher value
08:38<@peter1138>*it
08:38<alex_>please.
08:38<alex_>"slow" refers to what?
08:38<alex_>latency?
08:38<alex_>bandwidth?
08:39<alex_>slow processor?
08:41<Rubidium>I presume slow processor or it must have a latency of more than 2 seconds
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08:42<alex_>and how does increasing net_frame_freq allow laggy clients to connect?
08:42<alex_>Client #71 is dropped because the client did not respond for more than 4 game-days
08:43<Smoovious>generally, if net_frame_freq is too low, and 2 clients are running at significantly different speeds, say, a 733Mhz vs a 3Ghz computer..., you could end up w ith t he situation where the 733Mhz c omputer issues a command for an action it did, but the 3Ghz computer has already passed that frame and can't execute the command
08:43<Rubidium>increasing net_frame_freq lowers the load at the client slightly, which may cause the client to still keep up with you
08:43<Smoovious>so setting frame_freq, will add a delay or lag, for the command to be executed, so they stay in s ync
08:44<Rubidium>Smoovious: that is bullshit
08:44[~]Smoovious shrugs.
08:44<Smoovious>tis the way it appears to me
08:45<Eddi|zuHause3>"mis_s_pellings"?
08:46<Rubidium>Smoovious: it just means that the server sends the accumulated commands (from all clients) every net_frame_freq frames
08:46<Rubidium>and the clients can NEVER be a frame further than the server
08:46<Rubidium>they can only be behind
08:47<Rubidium>but if it shows that slow message it usually means the computer is too slow to play the game
08:47<Smoovious>note I didn't specifiy which was server o r client... a nd otherwisse, the rest o f that supports m y 'delay or lag' part
08:47<Rubidium>as alex_ already said the client was dropped because it was too slow
08:47<Rubidium>Smoovious: the "can't execute the command" is totally crap
08:48<Rubidium>commands are always send to the server and then distributed to the clients and THEN, when the server says so, executed
08:48<Smoovious>well, if I find the explanation of that again, that I read which described i t that way, I'll mention it
08:50<alex_>net_frame_freq increases the sync updates timer
08:50<alex_>so its its like 2 atm
08:50<alex_>and i set it too like 10
08:50<alex_>means less load on clients, but a big burst of data from the server end?
08:51<alex_>every sync cycle?
08:51<Rubidium>basically
08:52<Eddi|zuHause3>at values like 10 the game gets pretty unplayable, because commands get very delayed
08:52<Smoovious>not that unplayable... it isn't a first-person-shooter after all
08:54<Gekko[PDA]>lol
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10:56<AntB>hey, can you use more then one patch with BuildOTTD?
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10:57<hylje>you may need to correct conflicts
10:57<AntB>ok, i was just wondering as theres only 1 box for patches
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10:58<hylje>its one off because, well, correcting conflicts is hard and error-prone
10:58<hylje>or the dev was lazy
10:58<AntB>lol
10:59<Smoovious>plus resolving conflicts one patch at a time can already be a pain in the ass... wouldn't wanna do several at once
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11:02<AntB>ok
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11:29<Wolf01>hello
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11:37<alex_>hi
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11:43<ZSOLT21>sombody know how or where can i download ottd 32 bites ?
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11:45<Nek21_bv>sombody know how or where can i download ottd 32 bites ?
11:46<Noldo>what?
11:46<@peter1138>Try http://www.openttd.org/nightly.php
11:46<@peter1138>assuming you are talking about 32bpp graphics
11:46<@peter1138>rather than 32 bits
11:46<Nek21_bv> 32bpp graphics
11:46<Nek21_bv>:)
11:46<@peter1138>i have no idea where you can download actual 32bpp graphics though
11:47<@peter1138>but the nightly does support the mythical beasts
11:47<Nek21_bv>ok thank you.
11:51<@peter1138>heh, a dual-core cpu is nice for running a client & server on the same machine...
11:51<hylje>:o
11:51<hylje>isnt that somewat.. obvious?
11:51<@peter1138>yes
11:51<@peter1138>but this is national state-the-obvious day
11:51<@peter1138>didn't you know?
11:51<hylje>no, i didn't
11:52<hylje>and you're being rather meta there
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11:54[~]peter1138 idly ponders that quad-core cpu
11:54<hylje>four openttds at a time!
11:55<skidd13>peter1138: Is FS1095 better now?
12:03<@peter1138>not really
12:03<@peter1138>multiplying by an enum value?
12:03<skidd13>Why not?
12:04<skidd13>Or is a ((IS #1 of enum) ? 1 : 2) * better?
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12:19<Sacro>oh nyet
12:19<lolman>:o
12:26<Nickman>TrueBrain: you here? :)
12:32<Nickman>I'll be out for a while but I think there is something wrong with the drive trough bus stations in the NoAI branch, I can't get them to build...
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12:33<CIA-1>OpenTTD: miham * r10737 /trunk/src/lang/ (catalan.txt german.txt polish.txt):
12:33<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update: WebTranslator2 update to 2007-07-30 19:33:14
12:33<CIA-1>OpenTTD: catalan - 51 changed by arnaullv (51)
12:33<CIA-1>OpenTTD: german - 3 changed by chu (3)
12:33<CIA-1>OpenTTD: polish - 5 fixed by meush (5)
12:39<Noldo>skidd13: even if you were right you would be wrong
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13:09<skidd13>Noldo: He's the lead dev so his word counts.
13:09<skidd13>peter1138: Better now?
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13:16<Noldo>skidd13: my point exactly
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13:27<skidd13>Noldo: I'm the opinion that perseverance pays off always.
13:42<Priski>hmm, changelog in http://www.openttd.org/nightly.php is bit misleading where it says "2 lines" etc. I'm guessing that it shows svn commit message lines (+1 ?), not number of lines in code that changed, as some people might first think...
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15:09<Wolf01>'night
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15:12<ln->night comes early in italy.
15:17<@peter1138>10pm?
15:18<@peter1138>well not everyone stays up all night
15:19<Priski>nope
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15:54<Eddi|zuHause3>depends how you define "night" :p
15:54<Eddi|zuHause3>it's definitely dark outside
15:55<Eddi|zuHause3>but in finland, the sun is probably still up :p
15:56<Wezz6400>well, do you define night as night, or as evening ;)
15:57<Rubidium>1 : the time from dusk to dawn when no sunlight is visible
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15:58<ln->not this south in finland.
15:58<Rubidium>Wolf01 is in Italy and it gets pretty dark there
15:58<Rubidium>around 10 pm CEST
16:00<Wezz6400>so
16:00<Wezz6400>the night is the perfect time to code!
16:01<Rubidium>and the perfect time to sleep
16:01[~]Rubidium ponders a biannual migration
16:01<Wezz6400>meh
16:01<Wezz6400>sleep is overrated
16:01<ln->for the record, sun sets at about 21:54 in helsinki these days.
16:02<ln->and about 40 minutes later in Oulu.
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16:07<ln->and in the very north, sun sets twice tomorrow, wtf?
16:07<Rubidium>at something like 0:01 and 23:59 I guess
16:08<ln->0:09 and 23:59
16:08<Eddi|zuHause3>the joy of summer time :p
16:09<Eddi|zuHause3>when midnight is not really midnight :p
16:09<Wezz6400>midnight isn't midnight for most peope
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16:09<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause3: the number of places where midnight is actually midnight is very small
16:10<Eddi|zuHause3>"midnight" as in "24:00" is not the same as "midnight" as in "lowest point of the sun movement"
16:11<Eddi|zuHause3>Rubidium: yes, timezones also matter, but the summer time makes the problem worse
16:11<Eddi|zuHause3>those were the days, when each village had its own timezone :p
16:12<Eddi|zuHause3>i think they were abolished in the 19th century in germany
16:12<Eddi|zuHause3>most pressure against "local timezones" came from the rail company, because it was impossible to create proper train schedules
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16:14<Eddi|zuHause3>i think germany was divided into 6 timezones before that, each around 5 minutes apart
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16:20<Priski>it would be nice if we all just used one timezone, it would make some things easier
16:21<Wezz6400>very true, however that would mean that half the planet would live at night and sleep during the day
16:21<Wezz6400>that's not gonna work very well I think
16:22<Sacro>Wezz6400: time is an illusion
16:22<Sacro>lunchtime doubly so...
16:22<legoscia>it might work. i've read about a culture (forgot which) where they start counting the hours at 6 in the evening, so they have shifted 6 hours already
16:23<Sacro>i prefer using swatch time
16:23<Nickman>gnight all
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16:23<Eddi|zuHause3>yeah, we should all live after Zulu time :p
16:23<Priski>Wezz6400, i really don't think so cause then just word 'night', etc... would mean different thing on different places
16:23<Eddi|zuHause3>(= UTC, i believe)
16:23<Wezz6400>Priski maybe so
16:24<Sacro>i use "night" whatever time it is
16:24<Wezz6400>but the earth isn't gonna stop rotating so people would be living in the dark
16:24<Priski>I really don't see why this has to do anything to "people living in the dark"
16:24<Eddi|zuHause3>but this would be the end of all experiments like summer time
16:25<Eddi|zuHause3>you won't shift regularly scheduled times by an hour every half year
16:25<Priski>another thing that bugs me is the gregorian calender system
16:26<Eddi|zuHause3>why, what is wrong with it?
16:27<Rubidium>and what do you suggest as an alternative?
16:29<@peter1138>cheese
16:30<Wezz6400>hmmmm, cheeese *drool*
16:30<Eddi|zuHause3>cheese is bäähh...
16:30<Wezz6400>I homerdrooled, therefore cheese is good :P
16:31<Priski>well mostly is inaccuracy with rotation of earth, and some other issues with weekday rotation etc
16:32<Eddi|zuHause3>Priski: that is not an answer to either question.
16:32<Priski>I cant find the suggestion which I some time ago bumped into on net
16:33<Priski>I'm busy now with my night-time-noodles, I just flooded my plate all over kitchen
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16:34<Eddi|zuHause3>that is the poorest excuse i heard all month
16:34<Priski>:)
16:34<Priski>yeah I know
16:35<Rubidium>Priski: as long as the number of earth rotations per rotation of the earth around the sun cannot be expressed in a natural number and the number of earth rotations per rotation around the sun cannot be divided into a natural number that is between say 5 and 10 there is NO calendar system that magically "solves" your issues.
16:37<Priski>I know, there always will be a need an leap-day, leap-week, or leap-something an all calendars
16:38<ln->not if we don't care about the correlation between time and sunshine anymore.
16:40<Priski>but it would be nice if (or interesting at most) to start a year same weekday every year, and all holidays etc would occur on same weekday so things like planning holidays way ahead in work would be easier. But I don't really know if that is even worth trying
16:41<Rubidium>Priski: the problem would be that they are going to "replan" all the holidays to be in the weekend
16:41<ln->changes like that are so much easier to introduce when you're e.g. the emperor of rome.
16:42<Priski>Rubidium, very likely, but no-one really knows how well it would work
16:43<Rubidium>having more "workdays" because the holidays are in the weekend is worse that your planning issue (IMO)
16:44<Eddi|zuHause3>"and all holidays etc would occur on same weekday" <- that is already with a lot of holidays (easter, etc.)
16:44<Eddi|zuHause3>the holidays that are based on a lunar calender
16:44<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause3: yeah, but they are going to do it with christmas too
16:45<Eddi|zuHause3>Priski: do you have any idea how long it took until most governments adjusted to the gregorian calendar?
16:45<Eddi|zuHause3>how long do you think it will take to change that to another random calender, when the current system runs great?
16:46<Rubidium>and more working days because of christmas not being on a week day and not being paid for the free day because christmas is a week day is worse than Priski's planning issue ;)
16:46<Priski>a long time
16:46<Rubidium>*is not a week day
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16:46<ln->i propose switching to star dates.
16:47<Eddi|zuHause3>speaking of easter, what is the english name for "Pfingsten" (50 days after easter)?
16:47<Sacro>errr...
16:47<Sacro>Pentacost?
16:48<ln->4th of july? :)
16:48<Priski>what is 50days after easter?
16:48<Eddi|zuHause3>is tht an answer?
16:48<Sacro>w00t
16:48<Sacro>i was right!
16:48<Priski>ahh that day (looked up in wiki)
16:48<Eddi|zuHause3>it's more like 49 days (=7 weeks), but they count the first and the last day, so it makes 50
16:48<Rubidium>Sacro: your not
16:48<Sacro>Rubidium: yes i am
16:48<Rubidium>it's Pentecost
16:49<Sacro>go to de.wikipedia.org
16:49<Sacro>what did i say?
16:49<Sacro>damn i was close :p
16:50<Priski>that is one of the most useless holidays on my calendar, (but having holidays is good so whatta hell..)
16:52<Eddi|zuHause3>Priski: it's an important clerical holiday here, actually even two days (sunday and monday, same as easter)
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16:53<Priski>:o
16:53<Eddi|zuHause3>there are a lot of non-clerical traditions around that weekend here, also
16:53<Priski>well different cultures have different holiday traditions
16:54<Rubidium>I propose to make special days (like Christmas is for Christians) from the Islamic, Jewish and all other religions also holidays ;)
16:55<Eddi|zuHause3>Rubidium: actually, a lot of "christian" holidays were placed on holidays that existed in the local cultures long before christianisation
16:55<Rubidium>who cares?
16:55<ln->\o_
16:55<Rubidium>more free days ;)
16:56<Priski>:)
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16:56<Eddi|zuHause3>and actually, it is most likely that "christmas" is one of those, where it is very close to the "Wintersonnenwende" (shortest day of the year, 21. December))
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16:58<Eddi|zuHause3>traditional "easter fires" (on the saturday before easter) are most likely also an even older "heidnic" tradition
16:59<Priski>old pagan holidays are best :)
16:59<Wezz6400>Eddi|zuHause3 the christmas tree comes from one of the old scandinavian cultures I believe
17:00<ln->easter fires are for expelling witches.
17:00<Eddi|zuHause3>Wezz6400: yeah, where christus lived there were hardly any needle-trees to find :p
17:00<Eddi|zuHause3>ln-: yes, witches have a very old tradition in this region
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17:00<Wezz6400>fireworks is for scaring away ghosts I think
17:01<alex____>could i run 0.5.2-RC2 + 0.5.2 stable and the nightly on the same debian box?
17:01<Eddi|zuHause3>in the "Harz" mountains there is a famous place called "Hexentanzplatz" ("place where whiches dance")
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17:02<ln->do they?
17:03<Eddi|zuHause3>even in Goethe's "Faust" they make an appearance
17:03<Rubidium>and Santa Claus comes from a Dutch tradition
17:04<Eddi|zuHause3>although that scene does not play at the "Hexentanzplatz" near Thale, but near Schierke (next to the highest mountain in the "Harz")
17:04<Priski>in old pagan finnish holiday, "santa claus" was feared man who would go around houses drinkin their alcohol, but now it has evolved something bit different... :)
17:04<alex____>could i run 0.5.2-RC2 + 0.5.2 stable and the nightly on the same debian box? ----- anyone know if i can?
17:05<Rubidium>alex____: you can, but not by installing three different debian packages
17:05<Rubidium>you have to compile two of them
17:05<alex____>thats fine....
17:05<alex____>ok thanks, ill check it out tomorrow
17:06<alex____>is there any scripts around to automaticly download the nightly?\
17:06<ln->Priski: thanks to coca-cola®.
17:06<Eddi|zuHause3>actually "Sankt Nikolaus" was a christian monk who originated in the area of turkey, and traveled from the netherlands eastwards through germany, supposedly handing out gifts
17:06<Priski>ln-, :D
17:06<Eddi|zuHause3>that was around the 4th century, i believe
17:07<Rubidium>alex____: no, but that's because doing it manually is easier than downloading the script
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17:08<Priski>guy who added santa a bear was some comedy cartoonist in 1863 (?)
17:09<Priski>err, bearD
17:09<Eddi|zuHause3>the current image of "santa claus" is supposedly majorly influenced by coca cola
17:10<Wezz6400>well the thing is that that image got popular in the us, and because us culture is kinda dominant now most people on this planet know that image
17:12<Eddi|zuHause3>i don't think it actually has something to do with dominance, because that image of "santa claus" was even popular in eastern block countries, which are not exactly known for american dominance :p
17:13<Wezz6400>hmm ok didn't know that
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17:14<Wezz6400>I do know that in the netherlands we have sinterklaas, which is based on the same guy you were talking about traveling through germany
17:14<Eddi|zuHause3>yeah, i know
17:14<Rubidium>s/based on//
17:14<Eddi|zuHause3>but you celebrate that a day earlier :)
17:15<Wezz6400>december 5th actually
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17:19<Eddi|zuHause3>exactly, and we celebrate it on the 6th
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17:19<Eddi|zuHause3>(supposedly his day of death, actually)
17:19<Wezz6400>I see
17:20<Wezz6400>I don't suppose you guys have him coming into the country officially and stuff like that
17:23<Eddi|zuHause3>the tradition is to have kids clean their boots, and on the next morning, clean boots are filled with sweets, and dirty boots with a piece of coal
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17:25<Wezz6400>hmm ok
17:25<Wezz6400>we still have that
17:25<Wezz6400>though without the cleaning or coal these days
17:26<Eddi|zuHause3>i have never known any instance of coal being placed into boots either :p
17:27<Rubidium>just scare tactics
17:29<Wezz6400>hehe yeah just as the story about taking kids back to spain :D
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17:29<Eddi|zuHause3>i have never heard about that...
17:29<Eddi|zuHause3>what is that about?
17:30<Wezz6400>It's another scare tactic, if you're not behaving well you'll be taken back to spain in the bag which contained the gifts on the way over here
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17:31<Priski>:D
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17:35<Eddi|zuHause3>enough with the christmas, it's summer :p
17:35<Eddi|zuHause3>at least it's supposed to, the temperatures do not actually behave :p
17:35<+glx>:)
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19:22<Sacro>hey RichK67!
19:26<RichK67>hi sacro
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19:26<RichK67>major league committage about to happen on newgrf_ports :)
19:29<Sacro>ooh nice, what kinda new stuffs?
19:30<RichK67>commuter airport is now loaded from newgrf, and the newgrf FSM works - helis and a/c fly!!! :)
19:31<Sacro>oooh
19:31<Sacro>does that mean i can make a new airport?
19:31<RichK67>yup - with whatever graphics you want
19:32<Sacro>ooh, fun
19:32<Smoovious>a slingshot with a ramp
19:32<RichK67>ok, there are some minor glitches... cant save it, being one ;)
19:32<RichK67>thats next on the list
19:37<CIA-1>OpenTTD: richk * r10738 /branches/NewGRF_ports/ (17 files in 4 dirs):
19:37<CIA-1>OpenTTD: [NewGRF_ports] -Feature: FSMblockmap class added. Basic FSM import complete.
19:37<CIA-1>OpenTTD: Need to handle multiple blocks on import. Aircraft controller recoded to work
19:37<CIA-1>OpenTTD: with new 128 bit blocks. Still need to write saveload for new blocks.
19:37<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rb_airport2.grf updated. Commuter airport FSM working.
19:39<Smoovious>yeah, saving would be good
19:40<Sacro>:o
19:40<Sacro>FLYING SPAGHETTI MONSTER
19:41<Smoovious>oh, you've seen my rail interchanges!
19:46<Phazorx>hmm... no idea what FSM is
19:46<Phazorx>any info on that on wiki?
19:46<RichK67>only the briefest of descriptions on the wiki
19:47<Phazorx>RichK67: can you enlighten me plz ?
19:47<Smoovious>at least what the acronym means?
19:47<RichK67>the newFSMports branch is where im developing the ability to load in custom designed (air/sea/road)ports
19:48<Rubidium>FSM => finite state machine
19:48<RichK67>FSM = finite state machine... the thing that moves the vehicles around
19:48<Smoovious>ty
19:48<Smoovious>yeah, having a nice long loading dock would be great for trucks
19:49<Phazorx>hmm... a different managing technique for aitports i can see a point fo that
19:49<Phazorx>since on ground planes avoid visual collisions, but for ships/rvs cant really see where that comes handy
19:49<RichK67>im itching to design a dockyard with multiple loading docks
19:50<Phazorx>and are they treated as different platfroms in RR station?
19:50<Phazorx>or just an eyecandy?
19:51<Phazorx>it would be coll to have dedicated dock per cargo type tho
19:51<RichK67>far more active than a RR station...
19:51<Phazorx>makes great scense to me at least
19:53<Phazorx>will that SM allow to select a manager model for airports, like reassigning slots to different vehicle types, changing queuing, or general routing withing?
19:56<RichK67>you would be able to code a lot of that within the .grf file, but it is *complicated* :)
20:05<Phazorx>you should see current openrrdcoop game with 6lane one way tracks and 1500 trains on it, that is complicated :)
20:05<Phazorx>but all just set of basic elementsd
20:06<Phazorx>which is probably how grf work would be...r ather tidious than complex
20:06<Rubidium>FSMs get complex pretty easily
20:06<Phazorx>and i'm just wondering what exactl FSM will allow to be done... what features/perks etc
20:07<Rubidium>FSMs are for controlling vehicle movement within the "station"
20:07<Phazorx>i figured that, but will a player has a choice of preset models
20:07<Rubidium>it basically makes sure you can efficiently route vehicles in the station without getting deadlocks (if coded correctly that is)
20:07<Phazorx>or will be able to build one?
20:08<Rubidium>as preset as they are in the grf
20:08<Phazorx>swicth between?
20:08<Rubidium>huh?
20:09<+glx>for the user it will be like current airports, but you can have more possible layout (depending on the grf coders)
20:09<Phazorx>say there is international airport, 4 landing strips, 6 plane slots 2 chopper slots
20:09<Rubidium>oh, and you can rotate the airports though
20:09<Rubidium>Phazorx: if you load the grf that has them
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20:10<+glx>you can have "holes" in the airport too
20:10<Phazorx>what if there will be one that turns off landingstrips or reassingls them to be 2in 2 out rather than pait og in/ou on each side, etc ?
20:10<Phazorx>so... not on a fly onyl as parameter or different grf set ?
20:10<Phazorx>glx: i see
20:11<Phazorx>i was under impression aside of rotation this is how its done now
20:11<Phazorx>GRFs define fucntionality. timing, quieing, slot exchange order wtc
20:11<+glx>yes it defines the FSM
20:12<+glx>and the layout
20:12<Phazorx>so i guess FSM framework is more comprehensive than hardcoded as it was ?
20:17<Rubidium>I fail to interpret what you mean
20:19<RichK67>system is mainly designed to provide a way of updating / adding new ports/airports etc without having to recode the core
20:20<Phazorx>Rubidium: currently GRFs define how airports work, entirely i presume... with FSM it is still only up to grfs to define functionality... so what exactly would change is user experience?
20:20<RichK67>side benefits are more flexible graphics, rotating airports, asymmetrical airports, etc.
20:20<+glx>[03:09:15] <+glx> for the user it will be like current airports, but you can have more possible layout (depending on the grf coders)
20:20<Rubidium>Phazorx: currently as in trunk or newgrf_ports?
20:20<RichK67>all current OTTD airports are 100% hardcoded
20:20<Phazorx>in trunk i guess
20:21<Phazorx>RichK67: in code or grf?
20:21<RichK67>code
20:21<Phazorx>ahh
20:21<Phazorx>i see
20:21<Rubidium>Phazorx: there are no newgrf coded airports yet
20:21<Phazorx>now it makes sense :)
20:21<Rubidium>(in trunk that is)
20:21<RichK67>well, one ;)
20:21<RichK67>and it doesnt quite work ;)
20:28<Rubidium>anyway, I'm going to sleep
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---Logclosed Tue Jul 31 00:00:11 2007