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#openttd IRC Logs for 2007-08-06

---Logopened Mon Aug 06 00:00:04 2007
00:20<Noldo>I wonder what it was that I was doing on friday before going home
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01:24<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r10807 /trunk/src/openttd.cpp: -Fix [FS#1108]: keep_all_autosaves always got ".sav" as filename, which basically means that it only kept the last autosave.
01:36<eekee>TTDPatch compatible nonstop handling means I can use stations as waypoints, right?
01:38<Eddi|zuHause3>yes, it is basically a misdescription
01:39<eekee>ok.. then with it enabled I can use multi-track stations as multi-track waypoints?
01:44<eekee>ok cool ^^
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02:29<dihedral>morning ladies ^^
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02:43<simon444>The new iMac!!!
---Logclosed Mon Aug 06 02:51:01 2007
---Logopened Mon Aug 06 02:51:03 2007
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02:51|-|Ekipa kanalu #openttd: Wszystkich: 80 |-| +op [4] |-| +voice [2] |-| normalnych [74]
02:52|-|Kanal #openttd zsynchronizowany w 71 sekundy
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02:57<simon888>check out the new iMac
03:03<Maedhros>"Faker" ?
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03:56<alex__>question, is there any way of increasing the train service period from 120 days?
03:56<Eddi|zuHause>there's a setting in the patches | vehicles tab, for the default service interval
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03:57<Nickman>hi all
03:58<Nickman>you here TrueBrain? :)
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04:32<dihedral>simon888: that mac image you posted is nothing but a HD Cinema Screen!
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05:02<lion12>Played around with the newGRF airports - promising feature... Came up with a question though.
05:02<lion12>How will the cardinal points labelling be translated? One airports.grf for each language?
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05:08<Noldo>are they in the ui?
05:08<alex__>are there going to be airports bigger than 4 runways at some stag?
05:09<lion12>Noldo: in airports-gui, yes
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05:10<lion12>I don't think it's good to have graphical labels. What's the problem with using an textlabel and showing only the arrow on each button?
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05:12<simon888>dihedral, it is the new iMac.
05:13<Noldo>lion12: you'll have to ask richk
05:13<lion12>hm, richk not here?
05:14<Noldo>not at the moment
05:15<lion12>will post in the forums then
05:15<lion12>thank you
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05:48<simon888>that purple dude is gay
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06:11<Tekky4346>Hi, OpenTTD 0.5.3 RC2 has been out for a whole month now. Wouldn't it be appropriate to declare this version to be the next stable version? Currently, 0.5.2 is still listed as the latest stable version on the download page.
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06:12<Gekkko`>Tekky4346: it's not stable
06:12<Gekkko`>that's why
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06:12<Tekky4346>aha :)
06:16<simon444>Tekky4346, we all use nightlys
06:16<simon444>Tekky4346, start writing those patchies
06:17<simon444>version 0.6 is around the corner
06:17<Maedhros>the corner may be a while away, though
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06:30<Gekko>It's a long corner
06:30<Gekko>it's so long it seems to be straight
06:30<Gekko>but that 0.1 degree turn is just enough
06:31<Noldo>Tekky4346: the RC will be called stable if stands some test of time
06:36<Maedhros>ooh, openttd's in freebsd's ports
06:36<Maedhros>it's 0.5.0 though :-/
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06:36<Eddi|zuHause>means they are like half a year behind :p
06:36<Tekky4346>simon444: I should start writing patches? Which patches are you referring to?
06:43<Noldo> doesn't seem that bad
06:43<Rubidium>Tekky4346: there is an annoying regression in 0.5.3-RC* that I want to be fixed first (FS#998)
06:44<Maedhros>Noldo: yes, but it doesn't give any indication of how long newindustries is going to take
06:44<Noldo>Maedhros: true, seeming isn't the whole picture
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06:46<Noldo>Rubidium: Could the CommandCost class be used to convey the expence type information too ?
06:47|-|lion12 changed nick to LiOn
06:47<Rubidium>that's technically possible, though I wonder how you would handle adding commandcosts with different expense types
06:48<Noldo>in a.AddCost(b) the a would hold the expence type ?
06:50<blathijs>Rubidium: Either forbid it or simply let CommandCost hold a value per type
06:51<blathijs>might be more flexible I think, commands can then decide their own cost types and use mixed cost types
06:51<blathijs>though the first is already possible I think, but uses ugly global vars?
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06:54<Rubidium>having multiple types within a command cost is maybe nice, but might complicate stuff
06:54<Rubidium>on the other hand, we could just make it a linked list of command costs
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06:56<Noldo>ok so I will try and then we will se how it goes. I did similar patch that got rid of _yearly_expences_type already but didn't show it to anyone
06:58<CIA-1>OpenTTD: maedhros * r10808 /trunk/src/vehicle.cpp: -Fix (r10353): Make sure spectators can't open infrastructure building menus.
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07:02<ln->why _yearly, why not _annual?
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07:10<Gekko>yearly is easier for non-english speaking people?
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07:20<Tekky4346>Rubidium: thx for answering my question before.....
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07:20<Tekky4346>Rubidium: thx for answering my question before
07:20<Tekky4346>oh, sorry for double post...
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07:47<CIA-1>OpenTTD: maedhros * r10809 /trunk/src/roadveh_cmd.cpp: -Fix (r10097): When reversing, articulated parts of road vehicles should not attempt to do their own pathfinding.
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07:54<CIA-1>OpenTTD: maedhros * r10810 /trunk/src/roadveh_gui.cpp: -Fix (r10097): Add a comma between different cargo types if an articulated vehicle carries more than one cargo.
07:54[~]Maedhros pretends that commit never had to happen
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07:55<Eddi|zuHause>you could try jedi mind tricks, but they won't work on strong minded persons :p
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08:06<CIA-1>OpenTTD: maedhros * r10811 /trunk/src/roadveh_cmd.cpp: -Fix (r10097): Refit all the parts of an articulated road vehicle, not just the first part.
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08:43<simon444>stop vomiting
08:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: maedhros * r10812 /trunk/src/roadveh_cmd.cpp: -Fix (r10097) [FS#1093]: Make RoadVehicle::MarkDirty() mark all parts of articulated vehicles as dirty, not just the front.
08:45<Maedhros>uhm, what are you talking about?
08:46<Rubidium>Maedhros: /ignore simon*
08:46<Maedhros>could be a plan, yeah ;)
08:47<seiffs>hi, could anyone pleae help me? there's this problem: I play openttd, everything worked fine until one day when I clicked local authority in any town there was nothing to do (the menu with bribing, building financing, statue contruction, road recontruction is gone) and I have a lot! of money... does anyone know whats the problem?
08:49<simon444>click the more button
08:49<simon444>or something like that
08:49<simon444>it is the one in the middle
08:50<simon444>err let me open the game
08:50<simon444>seiffs, what version?
08:51<seiffs>0.5.1 linux
08:51<simon444>town name > local authority
08:51<seiffs>and there's no action to buy
08:51<simon444>should be there
08:52<simon444>no idea then
08:52<simon444>maybe Maedhros would know
08:52<Ammller>seiffs: update to current version and try again
08:53<seiffs>yes, I could try that
08:53<seiffs>I will tell when its done
09:03<seiffs>it's still empty
09:08<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r10813 /trunk/src/ (industry_cmd.cpp station.cpp): -Fix (r10799): some destructors were performing too much during the pool cleanups, which could cause crashes as already removed pool items could then be dereferenced by other destructors.
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09:35<@orudge>!seen peter1138
09:35<_42_>orudge, please look a bit closer at the memberlist of this channel.
09:35<@orudge>this one isn't as clever as patchbot.
09:35<@orudge>patchbot tells you when they last spoke ¬
09:35<hylje>bring it here then
09:36<simon444>!seen orudge
09:36<_42_>simon444, if you can't see orudge here right now, you probably need new glasses. ^_^
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09:36<simon444>!seen alexalex
09:36<_42_>simon444, alexalex (~email@ was last seen quitting #openttd 17 hours 34 minutes ago (05.08. 21:01) stating "Quit: ircN 8.00 for mIRC (20070730)" after spending 2 hours 36 minutes there.
09:37<simon444>!seen simon888
09:37<_42_>simon444, simon888 ( was last seen quitting #openttd 3 hours 40 minutes ago (06.08. 10:56) stating "Ping timeout: 480 seconds" after spending 1 hour 50 minutes there.
09:37<simon444>okay done.
09:37<alex__>simon444, ?
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09:37<alex__>alex__, <-- alexalex
09:37<simon444>so your that newbie...
09:38<simon444>a required skill to live
09:40<simon444>shit I would of been the last one to get killed if there were 40 people
09:41<simon444>i.e. the survivor would kill me
09:42<simon444>but if there was 50 people I would live
09:42<simon444>guess my maths isn't that bad
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10:00<skidd13>If I zoom out I get this assertion in the latest trunk: spritecache.cpp:471: const void* GetRawSprite(SpriteID, bool): Assertion `sprite < _spritecache_items' failed.
10:00<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r10814 /trunk/src/ (roadveh_cmd.cpp roadveh_gui.cpp): -Fix [FS#1103]/Codechange: allow trams to be reverse manually, even though there is no track to do so.
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10:02<Rubidium>that should also happen when you scroll around; sounds like some newgrf issue though.
10:03<skidd13>Rubidium: Yes, but a lot less. Hmm I test it without newgrfs
10:04<Rubidium>skidd13: because you don't get the sprite that is actually causing the issue to be drawn all the time when scrolling around zoomed in. When you zoom out it has to draw it with a much larger likelyhood
10:04<skidd13>Rubidium: Removing all grfs does not solve the issue.
10:05<skidd13>Maybe my savegame is broken?
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10:05<Rubidium>though I need some way to reproduce it
10:07<skidd13>Now I notice that there are some "killer" points on the map. Shall I post the savegame to FS?
10:09[~]Maedhros wonders how to stop articulated road vehicles using normal road stops, especially with multistop
10:10<Rubidium>forbid them in the pathfinder?
10:10<skidd13>Rubidium FS 1111
10:11<Maedhros>eep. pathfinders scare me :p
10:12<Rubidium>maybe you could ask KUDr to help
10:13<skidd13>Rubidium: Got the file?
10:14<Rubidium>img=16777197 <- that doesn't look right to me
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10:16<Eddi|zuHause><orudge> !seen peter1138 <- try @seen
10:17<skidd13>Rubidium: this looks really somewhat out of range.
10:18<@orudge>@seen peter1138
10:18<@DorpsGek>orudge: peter1138 was last seen in #openttd 19 hours, 38 minutes, and 7 seconds ago: <peter1138> "mmm, rhubarb crumble"
10:18<@orudge>well, now we know.
10:18[~]Maedhros stabs firefox
10:19<Maedhros>"colours" is not a spelling mistake
10:20<Rubidium>Maedhros: it is
10:20<Eddi|zuHause>actually it is, because the latin origin does not contain an "u" :p
10:20<Rubidium>in Firefox's UK English dictionary though
10:24[~]Maedhros goes to install a proper dictionary :p
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10:33<dihedral>simon444: spot the diff:
10:34<simon444>/exec wget; wget; diff .........
10:34<simon444>a few thousand bytes
10:40<dihedral>now lets learn what 'spot the diff' means, and 'run a diff', etc.
10:41<rav>Im about to buy this one:
10:41<rav>if you think the offer stinks, tell me now :p
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10:44<rav>funny :)
10:44<rav>I think its an awesome offer btw
10:45<rav>here in dutchieland the camera costs 750 euros, and that includes just 1 lens
10:45<dihedral>you'll probably just get the catalogue with all accessorise
10:45<rav>the seller's got a 98.5% positive feedback
10:46<dihedral>whats the missing 1.5% for?
10:46<dihedral>better yet, get him to send you some close up pictures of the lcd screen and the lenses
10:46<dihedral>just so you can make sure they aint too badly scrached
10:46<dihedral>if he responds, good
10:47<rav>it's still a lot of money, but for that camera it's quite a bargain
10:48<rav>the negative / neutral comments are usually about shipping
10:48<rav>one guy actually expected overnight shipping to a militairy address in europe :
10:48<dihedral>get in tough with the guy and see how he responds, is what i would suggest
10:49<rav>yea, I'll call too
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10:54<aneb>i opened a new openttd server named fswh openttd server in the server list
10:54<rav>shipping is just 79$ + 7% for insurance :)
10:55<rav>$140 shipping though :p]
10:56<rav>~730 euros in total then
10:56<rav>hmm, tempting :p
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11:01<simon444>rav, I sell Sony cameras
11:03<simon444>rav, I suggest buying from Hong Kong
11:04<simon444>just be careful not to buy counterfeits
11:09<rav>is it even cheaper there?
11:09<rav>paypal buyer protection isnt valid in hongkong
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11:16<simon444>rav, yes. delivery is cheaper too. no sales tax.
11:18<aneb>need help
11:18<aneb>openttd is taking too long to join my server.
11:18<aneb>any reason why?
11:18<aneb>Client #3 is dropped because it took longer than 296 ticks to start the joining process
11:19<aneb>WTF is that
11:20<simon444>Segmentation fault (core dumped)$#$
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11:38<simon444>Wolf01, hellooo
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11:44<Rubidium>aneb: that was a client that connected but didn't do anything after the initial connect (TCP level)
11:49<aneb>Rubidium: so how do i makje openttd do something
11:50<Rubidium>you have to make sure you've got a stable connection to the server, because that's most likely the problem you've got
11:51<aneb>Rubidium: stable connection? i have port forwarding working...
11:51<aneb>i think.
11:51<Rubidium>well, wireless networks can be unstable
11:52<aneb>my network is alll wired
11:53<aneb>and um
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11:54<Rubidium>the fact is that a lot of people use multiplayer and it works correctly for them, so there must be something specific in your situation that makes it break. I can give you some general ideas what might be wrong, but I don't have a crystal ball so I can see what exactly is wrong in your situation.
11:54<aneb>Rubidium: ummm, when i refresh the public ip entry in the server list for a few times it says that the server is offline
11:55<aneb>maybe i have a reason:
11:55<aneb>dbg: [NET] Cannot resolve
11:55<aneb>dbg: [NET] Cannot resolve
11:55<Rubidium>well, that isn't the reason why you can't connect
11:55<Rubidium>anyway, how's the server called?
11:56<aneb>name or IP?
11:57<aneb>also note that the LAN IP is listed and connects fine
11:57<simon444>political games
11:57<simon444>what a stupid idea
11:58<simon444>or good idea
11:58<simon444>depends on your POV
11:58<aneb>FSWH OTTD server
11:59<Rubidium>oh, you're trying to connect to server at the public IP
11:59<Rubidium>that's a kind-of known issue with most firewalls
11:59<aneb>i have a router
11:59<aneb>and d-link support says that the router doesnt support loopback
12:00<Rubidium>they do not do portforwarding of the external IP for connections coming from the internal network
12:00<Rubidium>then there's your problem
12:00<aneb>so i gess i have to hack around it
12:00<Rubidium>just connect to the local ip
12:00<aneb>by connecting to my lan ip
12:01<aneb>yeah okay :-)
12:01<aneb>and btw how do i state the rules whats the norm?
12:02<aneb>Rubidium: ?
12:03<Rubidium>me no understand
12:03<aneb>rules for users connecting to my server....
12:04<Rubidium>don't know exactly (don't run my own server), but there are plenty of people asking the same question at the forum
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12:53<dihedral>sugar simon444
12:54<simon444><calleja> sagrario castillo TAMAYO
12:55<simon444>what does all this mean?
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12:59<aneb>simon444: that is spanish or portugese, but i am not either :-)
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13:29<Chris82>hello :)
13:29<Chris82>I have a little problem, when I add the increase construction costs near towns patch and activate it the game crashes in scenario editor when I level land or build roads
13:29<simon444>bye :(
13:30<Chris82>a debug version leads me with an access violation to this line of my patch: uint distance = DistanceSquare(tile, t->xy);
13:30<Chris82>is something wrong with it?
13:31<blathijs>Chris82: Sounds like "t" has a null or other wrong value
13:31<Chris82>well I added +1 in all the calculations to avoid division by zero
13:31<Chris82>so the following code looks like: cost.MultiplyCost(((t->population / 408) * (1024 / (distance + 1)) / 2) + 1);
13:31<Chris82>so distance can't be 0
13:32<Maedhros>yes, but if there are no towns t will be NULL
13:32<Maedhros>-> segfault
13:32<Chris82>ahhhh let me see if having a town avoids the crash
13:35<Chris82>hmmm bad I can't load trunk scenarios with ChrisIN =O
13:36<Chris82>must have overlooked something that only affects scenario savegame compatibility, because trunk savegames work fine from any version
13:37<Chris82>ok you were right, when there is a town the editor doesn't crash the game when the patch is enabled
13:37<Chris82>how do I avoid this segfault? i.e. t being NULL
13:37<Chris82>make (((t->population / 408) * (1024 / (dist + 1)) / 2) + 1); -----> ((((t->population + 1) / 408) * (1024 / (dist + 1)) / 2) + 1);
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13:46<Maedhros>no, you're still using t ;)
13:46<Maedhros>if it's NULL, you can't use it
13:46<UnderBuilder>my idea for a better control to sabotagers: create a big official server, close the others and reclute the admins for moderating the 'super-servers'
13:47<Chris82>hmmm and is something like if t != NULL possible?
13:47<Chris82>so the whole code is only execute if t isn't NULL
13:48<aneb>Chris82: yes.... this is C after all, and comparisons are possible ;-)
13:48<aneb>Chris82: why did you ask?
13:49<UnderBuilder>the enormous server should be divided into several maps where players can manage their companies
13:49<Chris82>aneb: because my increase construction costs near towns patch crashes the game when leveling land in scenario editor and there are no towns
13:50<aneb>Chris82: no, that wasn't what i was referring to.
13:50<UnderBuilder>shortly, transform OTTD's MP into a MMOSim (or whatever) game type
13:51<Chris82>oh which question were you referring to?
13:51<aneb>Chris82: (02:47:42 PM) Chris82: hmmm and is something like if t != NULL possible?
13:52<Chris82>well because I always think of NULL as being nothing and not 0
13:52<Chris82>so I wasn't sure if a comparison like that is possible
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14:25<Chris82>ok the scenario editor crash is fixed :) now I just need to fix the problem that I can't load trunk scenarios with ChrisIN
14:31<+glx>scenario are like savegames so it's strange
14:33<Chris82>I thought so too, but obviously there's a difference
14:33<Chris82>I always only tested savegames with ChrisIN and they work fine, but no scenario works
14:34<Chris82>hmmm correction
14:34<Maedhros>there's no difference at all except for the file extension afaik
14:34<Chris82>a 0.5.2 scenario loads fine, only trunk scenarios don't work
14:35<Chris82>let me re-create a scenario, maybe it's only a bug with the file itself
14:35<Maedhros>i really need to stop designing layouts as if i could use pbs with them...
14:36<hylje>implement pbs instead
14:36<Chris82>good point hylje :D
14:36<Maedhros>heh, if only ;)
14:38|-|Wolf01|AWAY changed nick to Wolf01
14:40<Chris82>hmmm a trunk scenario r10814 with an empty map can be loaded
14:42<Chris82>nevermind there seems to be no problem loading scenarios
14:42<Chris82>the file I had was either corrupted or there was a bug in trunk that's been fixed :)
14:42<Chris82>good night guys
14:43<aneb>is there an alternative way to zoom in and out
14:43<+glx>+ and - in numpad
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14:50<Wolf01>why not pgup and pgdown?
14:50<TrueBrain>why not a and p
14:50<simon444> lol
14:51<Wolf01>because i don't have num+ and num- :0)
14:51<TrueBrain>so try them without num
14:51<TrueBrain>simon444: you do realise you are asking for a nice little kick?
14:51[~]simon444 kicks simon444
14:51<Wolf01>what's about the wince build?
14:52<TrueBrain>what about it?
14:52<CIA-1>OpenTTD: richk * r10815 /branches/NewGRF_ports/src/airport_gui.cpp: [NewGRF_ports] -Fix: Waypoints class check from newstation code was preventing listing of new classes.
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14:53<Wolf01>have you succeeded to fix the mouse?
14:53<TrueBrain>was no problem
14:54<Wolf01>now remain only the auto-landscape-switching for the screen
14:55<simon444>sorry about that
14:55<TrueBrain>Yeah, if ever :p
14:55<TrueBrain>not on my priority list :)
14:55<simon444>tom was using my computer for a while
14:55<simon444>he is gone now
14:56<simon444>my chin is swelling a little from the punch
14:58<TrueBrain>Wolf01: minor other things need to be done too: locale detection, free-diskspace
14:58<TrueBrain>those minor things
15:00<Wolf01>ah, did you remember i talked about a leak which drained the battery? it happens with every "big" program
15:00<TrueBrain>so not my problem :) Hehe!
15:00<Wolf01>so i think is a bug of windows or the firmware itself
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15:02<Wolf01>seem like that windows tries to swap continuously the ram also when not needed after closing the program... if it can swap something
15:03<TrueBrain>format :p
15:03<Wolf01>i try to install every software i can in the flash card
15:03<Wolf01>i have 2gb for this ;)
15:04<TrueBrain>.... :p
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15:33<aneb>Wolf01: simon444 is not a bot
15:33<simon444>yes I am
15:35<Prof_Frink>aneb: He might be
15:35<Prof_Frink>He fails the turing test...
15:35<Wolf01>sacro fails it too
15:36<Prof_Frink>Well, Sacro's a gnome from Jupiter
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15:45<Wolf01> lol
15:46<Prof_Frink>Huzzah for xkcd!
15:52<Wezz6400>xkcd pwns
15:52<Wezz6400>it also shows that anyone with a good sense of humor can start a succesful webcomic
15:58<Prof_Frink>xkcd is a simple test for geekhood.
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16:03<Wezz6400>whoa somebody's busy on fs :D
16:04<Rubidium>just a minor rearrangement of statuses
16:06<Wezz6400>40 minutes of it ;)
16:06<TrueBrain>now at least there is more clearness what is going on :)
16:07<Wezz6400>heh yeah it's a monks work (you know what I mean ;) ) but if done properly very useful
16:07<TrueBrain>too bad it can't be done properly within the current system
16:08<TrueBrain>which annoys the hell out of me
16:08<TrueBrain>take those patches... all nice and all, but I hav eno idea which patch is code-checked, which is good, which is bad, which is worth looking at....
16:08<Wezz6400>stupid question, why don't you ajust flyspray to fit those needs?
16:09<TrueBrain>not only is it hard, it is not designed with that in mind
16:09<TrueBrain>which makes it a hack, which is rarely a good thing :)
16:09<Wezz6400>hmm too bad
16:09<TrueBrain>hmm, reminds me of an old project of mine I maybe should just finish...
16:09<Wezz6400>i don't suppose there is a tool which does support that
16:10<TrueBrain>a very simple system
16:13<Prof_Frink>TrueBrain: Looks good
16:13<Prof_Frink>Something to placate those who constantly whine "Why isn't foopatch in trunk yet?"
16:13<hylje>is this under development?
16:14<TrueBrain>it is an old draft of mine, to improve user <-> developer interaction
16:14<TrueBrain>21 Feb 2007
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16:14<TrueBrain>As in my experience, the users mostly don't get why their patch isn't accepted
16:14<hylje>if you can host a python app, i could donate a patch tracker
16:15<TrueBrain>hylje: depends very much on what it give s:p
16:15<TrueBrain>as what I like to have, is a simple system that creates binaries out of patches, so users can try it
16:15<hylje>hmm, could compilefarm be harnessed?
16:16<Wezz6400>hmm quite nice
16:16<TrueBrain>it already has code to allow custom patches
16:16<TrueBrain>via a secure gateway I can insert them
16:16<TrueBrain>the only downside is that the patches need checking :)
16:16<TrueBrain>I once worked on a jail-system
16:16<TrueBrain>but that..... never made it out of hte draft :)
16:17<TrueBrain>the whole compile-farm needs a redo btw..
16:18<hylje>all i need to learn how-to is the help popups for implementing the draft
16:18<TrueBrain>hylje: sorry? I didn't follow that for one bit :)
16:18<TrueBrain>hylje: anyway, you have a website or shots of your patch tracker? :p
16:18<hylje>i just came in contact with said draft
16:19<hylje>its not likely i can whip up a prototype in a few minutes
16:19<TrueBrain>oh, sorry, I thought you ment you had a system
16:19<hylje>and anyway, i just dont grasp how to do pop up notes yet
16:19<TrueBrain>hehe, you want to build this system, okay, sorry, misread you :p
16:19<Prof_Frink>Hmm, could you do some clever linking and create a git branch for each patch put through the system?
16:19<TrueBrain>Prof_Frink: VERY nice idea in fact...
16:23<TrueBrain>anyway, hylje, coding this thing isn't the real issue currently :)
16:23<TrueBrain>I first want to be sure it will be used, and it is useful to use
16:23<hylje>most of the effort is in the design
16:23<hylje>given good design
16:23<TrueBrain>which Itried to give with those drafts ;)
16:23<TrueBrain>so I guess I first need some feedback on it
16:23<Prof_Frink>TrueBrain: Just say that you will only accept to trunk patches that have gone through the system
16:24<hylje>im whipping up the data structure that draft draws
16:24<hylje>expect some comments on that
16:24<TrueBrain>Prof_Frink: I am not the only developer
16:24<TrueBrain>and I have many crazy ideas
16:25<TrueBrain>(believe me, my draft-dir is longer then my patch-dir)
16:25<TrueBrain>hylje: I rather have feedback on what it might be missing :)
16:25<hylje>ill get to that
16:25<TrueBrain>k k :)
16:26<TrueBrain>btw, one side-condition on the site is that it runs in CLI based browsers :p
16:26<TrueBrain>just for the fun of it :)
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16:28<TrueBrain>I wonder in which language it should be done... most of is in PHP, but lately I favour Python..
16:29<Prof_Frink>Perl then
16:29<hylje>i'm proposing python
16:29<TrueBrain>PHP simply is bloat-ware
16:29<Wezz6400>php is well
16:29<Prof_Frink>Just to finish the LAMPPP stack
16:29<Wezz6400>it just sucks
16:29<Wezz6400>you can talk very long about it but in the end it just sucks
16:30<rav>I still like php
16:30<Wezz6400>basicly because it tries to be everything but it succeeds in none of that
16:30<rav>and php 5 in particular
16:30<TrueBrain>rav: it still is a killer for any machine
16:30<Wezz6400>which renders a heap of half-finished junk that doesn't work the way you want it to
16:30<rav>php isn't meant as a scripting language, not a programming language: you should keep that in mind
16:30<TrueBrain>the memory foot-print alone....
16:30<Wezz6400>rav still
16:30<Wezz6400>php5 is supposed to be good OO
16:31<Wezz6400>well try constructor overloading, doesn't work
16:31<rav>yea, and I don't miss any OO functions (though I dont use them alot anymore)
16:31<TrueBrain>Rubidium: I considered it :)
16:31<Wezz6400>what stupid OO language does not support constructor overloading >_<
16:31<TrueBrain>install lighttpd and get the lua plugin
16:31<TrueBrain>fast as lightning :)
16:32<Wezz6400>if you are used to proper OO implementations such as java or c# or possibly c++ (I don't know c++ well enough to judge) trying to work OO in php is just a bitch
16:32<DaleStan>rav: pong
16:32<TrueBrain>Wezz6400: just a matter of getting used to
16:32<rav>yea, well it's pretty tough to use c++ for a website ;)
16:32<TrueBrain>such things are there to overcome
16:32<TrueBrain>my problems are more as seen as a sysop :)
16:34<Wezz6400>TrueBrain well
16:34<Wezz6400>the fact that you can overcome it does not mean php5 has a decent oo implementation
16:34<hylje>lets get off the language debate and instead argue the implementation
16:35<TrueBrain>Prof_Frink: the git idea is nice and all, but a bit bitching, as each patch can be against an othe rsvn revision, and... that makes it all a bit harder :)
16:35<Rubidium>TrueBrain: just use a branch for each patch
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16:35<TrueBrain>Rubidium: yes, that isn't a problem
16:36<TrueBrain>but when a user upload patch against SVN r1
16:36<Rubidium>you should be able to branch a specific revision
16:36<TrueBrain>and later against SVN r100
16:36<TrueBrain>how to add both to one git?
16:36<TrueBrain>(what I liked about the idea was, that oyu can review the changes between 2 patches in an easy way)
16:36<simon444><rav> php isn't meant as a scripting language, not a programming language: you should keep that in mind
16:36<Rubidium>revert patch in git, update to correct rev, apply patch
16:36<TrueBrain>Rubidium: which doesn't help :)
16:36<Rubidium>that destroys the ability to review changes though
16:37<TrueBrain>so it removes the use of git at all
16:37<simon444>the guys who originally hack it up intended it to be a html processor
16:37<rav>simon: I know, it still is
16:37<rav>it's a preprocessor
16:37<simon444>it was not engineered as a language
16:37<TrueBrain>hmm, funny enough my draft has everything I want from such a system...
16:38<simon444>just a specially hacked up version of c...
16:38<Rubidium>the problem is that you can't view the difference between patches when they are made against other revisions
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16:39<rav>but it's easy to read and edit, which makes it extremely useful for websites :)
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16:39<TrueBrain>Rubidium: true true... too bad :p
16:39<rav>but lets quit this discussion ;)
16:39<Rubidium>and we all know that trunk changes cause conflicts... which makes it impossible to update one to the correct revision
16:39<TrueBrain>then I suggest to add git support in this way: one can request a git url, in which he can commit his stuff
16:39<TrueBrain>which links back to the review system, as if he uploads a new patch every time
16:40<Rubidium>then the patch is always against the revision he started with
16:40<TrueBrain>he can merge too
16:40<TrueBrain>like we do
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16:41<Rubidium>hmm, you mean the person gets full git access for that branch?
16:41<Wezz6400>sounds to me like you guys are trying to work with a double version system with this svn and git stuff :X
16:41<rav>yea, kind of confusing :p
16:41<TrueBrain>Rubidium: yes, why not? Easy to arrange, security wise
16:41<TrueBrain>Wezz6400: not at all. SVN is the main version contorl system
16:41<TrueBrain>it just doesn't allow easy branching or keeping track of local work
16:42<TrueBrain>git does, so see it as a thin shell around svn :)
16:42<simon444>rav, $2 please
16:42<rav>so git is svn + branch support? :)
16:42<TrueBrain>not directly, but how we use it: yes
16:42<rav>it seems useless to give each patch a different branch
16:42<rav>^ in my opinion
16:43<TrueBrain>in SVN, yes, in git, no
16:43<hylje>hm how do i spit out syntax highlighting in vim
16:43<Rubidium>git branches are *very* cheap
16:43<simon444><rav> '/me gives $2,-
16:43<rav>I think someone (lifts hand) should make a system for patches
16:43<rav>be happy with it
16:44<rav>simon, I will have to deduct administrative costs :o
16:44<TrueBrain>I think rav missed an essential part of this conversation
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16:44<rav>Im starting to think so as well :p
16:44[~]rav will shut up
16:44<Wezz6400>looks like it's a good idea for me to look into git then
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16:46<rav>well, that setup doesn't seem like a complicated system :)
16:47<rav>except for the last point that is :p
16:47<hylje> (sorry for imposing my theme and syntax highlighter to you people)
16:47<hylje>in case you're interested in what i see the data structure
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16:48<TrueBrain>totally unreadable for me :p
16:49<hylje>i could make it more human readable but that'd mean i'd have to write it down again
16:49<TrueBrain>hehe :p
16:50<TrueBrain>no worries :)
16:50<Rubidium>hylje: no user "class"?
16:50<hylje>Rubidium: it's elsewhere
16:50<TrueBrain>but okay, I first wonder if my draft is good enough
16:50<TrueBrain>does it contain all the things one needs?
16:50<hylje>i didnt see anything in particular lacking
16:51<Rubidium>that you'll know once it's implemented (prototype-phaseish)
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16:51<TrueBrain>Rubidium: yeah, but by reviewing it forhand, you avoid total disaster ;)
16:52<hylje>its not like the draft is a total enterprisey piece of obsidian
16:52<rav>how about a code discussion page for each patch?
16:52<hylje>rav: comments are right there
16:52<rav>I know
16:52<TrueBrain>and FixThises too :)
16:52<rav>Im no talking about general comments
16:53<rav>I mean a page specially for the coding comments / questions the devs might have
16:53<Rubidium>rav: you haven't read the details.txt, have you?
16:53<rav>I did
16:53<rav>Im tired >.<
16:53<Wezz6400>TrueBrain let me ask you a question, if you would start openttd now, would you use svn for a versioning system or git?
16:53<rav>let me read it again
16:53<hylje>rav: FixThises are dev->patchdev traffic
16:54<hylje>rav: Comments are user->patchdev traffic
16:54<TrueBrain>Wezz6400: SVN
16:54<hylje>in general.
16:54<TrueBrain>Wezz6400: for a big community, SVN is clear. Revisions go upwards, and one can refer to it
16:54<TrueBrain>git is just a nice addition
16:54<Rubidium>and svn would probably branchless (except stable branches) and git would be used for features
16:55<TrueBrain>hylje: most of the time, but Comments will also be used for devs to say: I don't like it game-wise
16:55<TrueBrain>or what ever
16:55<Wezz6400>hmm I see
16:55<TrueBrain>Rubidium: exactly :)
16:55<Wezz6400>I'm going to start a project soon, which is why I'm asking
16:55<hylje>it shouldnt be limited
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16:55<TrueBrain>Wezz6400: for small projects, use SVN
16:55<Wezz6400>I read parts of the svn manual and that talks about branching, which it supports
16:55<Wezz6400>I have no previous experience with svn so I don't know to what extend it does
16:56<Rubidium>oh, the "cheap branching" propaganda ;)
16:56<TrueBrain>it supports them perfectly, just not locally
16:56<TrueBrain>only remotely
16:56<Rubidium>they are right with it, branching is cheap, but any sync with "trunk"/whatever other branch is expensive
16:57<Maedhros>good night
16:57<TrueBrain>night Maedhros
16:57<Rubidium>as in copy-on-writeish and syncing usually means lots of files with little changes
16:57<Rubidium>night Maedhros
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16:57<Wezz6400>well when I think about branching I think about developing a game, first creating a version that can render terrain, objects and stuff, then creating an AI dev branch so you don't break the working alpha with crappy ai code in very early development
16:58<Rubidium>which would result in duplicating lots of files
16:58<TrueBrain>Wezz6400: it is oaky if you have revisions < 10000
16:58<Rubidium>and in svn you can't really remove branches
16:58<TrueBrain>and something like AI dev, I would suggest to give a SVN branch anyway
17:00<Wezz6400>Well I have no idea how many revisions we'll reach, but I don't suppose you guys ever thought about reaching 10k back when you started out
17:00<TrueBrain>true true
17:00<hylje>you can always migrate
17:01<Wezz6400>Hmm I'll have to look into this, it's good to know though
17:01<Wezz6400>Better do it now than halfway through
17:02<TrueBrain>but okay, where to go from here with this review system..
17:02<TrueBrain>creating the real page should be simple enough
17:02<hylje>it is
17:03<TrueBrain>hmm, k, if we do it in PHP, we can integrate it with the main site of ;)
17:03<hylje>ya right
17:03<hylje>i'd pass ;)
17:04<rav>I can help.. :)
17:04<TrueBrain>I rather pass on it too :p
17:04<Wezz6400>You want to use PHP, but you don't want to write PHP :D
17:05<hylje>he was utilizing sarcasm
17:05<TrueBrain>Wezz6400: I never said I want to use PHP
17:05<rav>writing php is one of the more simple and repetative jobs around
17:06[~]rav is off to bed
17:06<TrueBrain>night rav
17:06<simon444>rav, night
17:06<hylje>i think ima too. ill probably get a prototype up tomorrow
17:07<hylje>with most all of the draft 1's features
17:07<Wezz6400>TrueBrain ok you considered it
17:07<Wezz6400>you mentioned an advantage of using php
17:07<TrueBrain>Wezz6400: I was talking to hylje
17:08<Rubidium>ima -> iam -> i am -> I am
17:08<Wezz6400>blegh I seem to be going around in circles tonight
17:08<hylje>thanks, Rubidium
17:08<TrueBrain>ah, tnx :p
17:08<TrueBrain>hylje: don't rush too fast to a finish line :)
17:08<TrueBrain>but feel free
17:08<hylje>i'm not rushing
17:08<hylje>it's just that simple still :p
17:08<TrueBrain>it truely is yes
17:08<TrueBrain>just on the backend storage there are some things to take care of
17:09<hylje>the prototype cares bugger all bout that
17:09<hylje>but now really, night
17:09<TrueBrain>night hylje
17:09<TrueBrain>and tnx
17:09<Wezz6400>oh nice, wikipedia lists 25 version control systems :X
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17:25<TrueBrain>hylje: django is nice :p
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17:27<simon444>too many people sleeping
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17:27<simon444>do it like me
17:27<simon444>stay up all night
17:27<simon444>go to work
17:27<simon444>sleep in the 2 hour commute
17:27<Prof_Frink>Doesn't work so well when it's a 20minute drive
17:31<simon444>Prof_Frink, stop in the parking lot
17:31<simon444>sleep might fit better
17:35<simon444>the rumor mill says new imac will be cheaper
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17:49<TrueBrain>hylje: what is missing in your design is the checklist, and their score
17:49<TrueBrain>but okay, detail :)
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17:56<dihedral>night ladies
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17:57<simon444>ladies hahahaha
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18:24<simon444>peter1138, how many laptop miles is your penis?
18:24<TrueBrain>@kick simon444 blabla, woef woef
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18:25<Nickman>hi all
18:25<Wezz6400>it's good to see my ignore list items confirmed :+
18:34<Nickman>TrueBrain, you still here? or do you run away everytime I'm online? :D
18:35<TrueBrain>the latter, yes :p
18:35<Nickman>hehe :D
18:35<TrueBrain>nice post, I made it sticky
18:35<TrueBrain>now nappy time
18:35<Nickman>I saw ;)
18:35<Nickman>I'm going to bed to ;)
18:35<Nickman>night ;)
18:38<simon444>off to work
18:39<simon444>peter1138, you can answer me when I get back
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18:44<DaleStan>That is actually an interesting question after all.
18:46<DaleStan>Why are there 0.5.3-RC2 packages for Debian, but no packages for any other Linux distros, despite claims to the contrary ("different Linux distributions") on ?
18:47<DaleStan>And the same for 0.5.2.
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18:56<Sacro>I can post them for ArchLinux
18:56<Sacro>actually, not -RC*
18:57<Sacro>seeing as hyphens are not allowed in the version number
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20:23<CIA-1>OpenTTD: richk * r10816 /branches/NewGRF_ports/src/ (aircraft_cmd.cpp airport.h newgrf.cpp newgrf_fsmports.h): [NewGRF_ports] -Change: Vertical movement now based on difference in heights between current position and target position, rather than just being in particular states.
20:25<CIA-1>OpenTTD: richk * r10817 /branches/NewGRF_ports/src/newgrf_fsmports.h: [NewGRF_ports] -Fix: Committed one file too many.
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20:57<Phazorx>wrong channel
20:58<iratsu>yea, i noticed, thanks =P
20:58<Phazorx>same result tho :)
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---Logclosed Tue Aug 07 00:00:31 2007