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#openttd IRC Logs for 2007-08-16

---Logopened Thu Aug 16 00:00:18 2007
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02:23<Wolf01>hello
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03:20<CIA-2>OpenTTD: rubidium * r10917 /branches/NewGRF_ports/src/newgrf_config.cpp: [NewGRF_ports] -Fix: if you force NewGRFs to be always loaded, make sure it still forces the NewGRF to be loaded when it is marked as "init only".
03:21<CIA-2>OpenTTD: rubidium * r10918 /branches/NewGRF_ports/src/newgrf.cpp: [NewGRF_ports] -Fix: do not mark NewGRF properties as "unknown"/"unhandled" when you have handled them correctly during load.
03:22<CIA-2>OpenTTD: rubidium * r10919 /branches/NewGRF_ports/src/station.h: [NewGRF_ports] -Codechange: use the dummy airport from the NewGRF instead of the hardcoded one.
03:24<CIA-2>OpenTTD: rubidium * r10920 /branches/NewGRF_ports/src/ (11 files in 2 dirs): [NewGRF_ports] -Cleanup: remove the tables/files that were used to define airports as they will all be defined in a NewGRF and we do not need them anymore.
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03:56<Ammler>good morning, I liked to "clean up" my ottd installs, (used symlinks etc) and moved all my newgrfs and the original data files to /usr/share/openttd/data, now openttd doesn't start anymore. Do I have to do something else?
03:58<@peter1138>is it not /usr/share/games/openttd/data ?
03:58<@peter1138>just guessing, it's /usr/local/share/games/openttd/data for me
03:59<Ammler>hmm, read something else in forum, but I try it
04:02<@peter1138>well, -d misc=4 will show you
04:04<Ammler>dbg: [misc] /home/marcel/.openttd/ found as personal directory
04:04<@peter1138>maybe that only shows it if the path exists though, i dunno
04:05<Ammler>does that mean, that it uses only that?
04:05<@peter1138>no, it uses all the search paths
04:05<@peter1138>the personal directory is where things are saved
04:05<Ammler>dbg: [misc] /usr/local/share/games/openttd/ added as search path <--- local
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04:24<Ammler>that the personal directory is a hidden one, is a little bit strange, isn't?
04:25<Ammler>usually you don't need hidden directories offen, only if you like to change configs.
04:25<Ammler>but .openttd would be needed more because you have saves, screenshots etc. in it, workaround is a symlink
04:26<Rubidium>Ammler: you can configure it at configure time
04:26<Ammler>and I thought, I can get rid of them
04:27<Ammler>Rubidium: for me, its not a problem, but I think also of our "visitors" at #openttdcoop
04:28<Ammler>I guess, in windows, its not hidden?
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04:29<Rubidium>it's where it should be according to the guidelines set for the different OSes
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05:11<CIA-2>OpenTTD: rubidium * r10921 /trunk/src/economy.cpp: -Fix [FS#1130] (r10323): the company related news messages still thought that companies were described by two parameters instead of one.
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08:13<Ammler>is these problem known: http://mozart.ammler.ch/tt-ms/save/screenshot.png
08:13<CIA-2>OpenTTD: maedhros * r10922 /trunk/src/rail_cmd.cpp:
08:13<CIA-2>OpenTTD: -Codechange: Allow building and removing tracks and signals when there is a
08:13<CIA-2>OpenTTD: train on a parallel diagonal track that doesn't interact with this one. (frosch)
08:13<Ammler>the bridge is from the orange company, the land is bought from blue
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08:17<Eddi|zuHause3>\o/ great feature! :)
08:18<SmatZ>yes, nice work Maedhros
08:19<SmatZ>hmmm nice work frosch :)
08:21<Maedhros>yeah, i can't really take any credit for it at all :)
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09:30<Ammler>!logs
09:30<SpComb>Logs: http://spbot.marttila.de:8120/logs/oftc-ottd (old: http://zapotek.paivola.fi/~terom/logs/openttd )
09:31<+glx>Ammler: your "problem" is only visual I think
09:32<Ammler>glx, you mean the bridge over a foreign company?
09:32<+glx>yes
09:32<Ammler>hmm, I meant the possibilty to build something over others land
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09:33<Ammler>the other isn't able to expand his airport, (that's for he bought the land)
09:33<Maedhros>it's explicitly allowed, at the moment
09:34<Ammler>should be possible to forbid it, shouldn't?
09:35<Ammler>or then it should be possible to build under bridges
09:35<+glx>Ammler: what if the planed construction is just a track or a road?
09:35<Ammler>expanding the airport
09:35<Maedhros>you can build under bridges. just not airports :p
09:36<Ammler>but I guess, its the most used reason for buying land
09:37<Ammler>so it should at least be setable over [patches]
09:37<+glx>many people already buy land to just annoy others
09:38<+glx>this case is just the opposite :)
09:39<Ammler>glx, thats an other thing and not the resbonsibilty of devs
09:40<Ammler>but hey I don't think, someone can build a brdige over my land without asking me
09:42<Ammler>else you have just to reserve your land with building pseudo bridges, is that the want of devs?
09:42<Ammler>you can remove the buy land, its useless so
09:44<@Belugas>so you're suggesting that the construction of a bridge cannot be permitted over bough land, but can be done over rails/roads that are owned by opponents?
09:44<Ammler>exactly like in RL
09:45<@Belugas>what's RL?
09:45<Ammler>RL= "normal" thinking
09:45<Ammler>you can still build a tunnel under bought land
09:46<Ammler>or maybe the possibilty to build stations etc. under bridges
09:46<Ammler>but that will be difficulty for the grfs, I guess
09:46<hylje>stations under bridges! newbridgeheads!
09:47<Ammler>newbridgeheads?
09:47<hylje>arbitrary stuff on bridgeheads
09:47<hylje>not just a ram
09:47<hylje>p
09:48<hylje>a ram's fine too
09:48<SmatZ>Ammler: http://wiki.ttdpatch.net/tiki-index.php?page=CustomBridgeHeads
09:49<Ammler>hylje: something like that: http://ttdx.250x.com/img/bruecke.gif
09:49<hylje>that'd be awesome too
09:49<hylje>but for now i'm cool with just bridgeheads like that
09:49<Ammler>yes, looks nice, like enhanced tunnels
09:50<@Belugas>did i ever said the I hate the expression "Real Life"?
09:50<Ammler>Belugas: sry for that
09:50<Ammler>that's why I wrote something else
09:50<SmatZ>Belugas: and 'in real world'?
09:51<Ammler>Belugas: I agree with TTD hasn't to be like RL/RW
09:52<hylje>but arbitrary limitations should be considered fixable over time
09:53<@Belugas>unfortunately, it is one of the mostly used argument in any discussion about features...
09:53<Ammler>another nice fake: http://ttdx.250x.com/img/tunnel.gif
09:53<hylje>:>
09:53<hylje>diagonal tunnels!
09:53<hylje>newdiagonaltunnels!
09:53<Maedhros>going up one level, too
09:53<hylje>:o
09:54<@Belugas>that would be nifty indeed :)
09:55<Ammler>btw, from here: http://ttdx.250x.com/bilder.htm
09:55<SmatZ>:-) I though about that feature, but that would need a lot of code change... I think :-) The idea I had was to make one more Pool with tunnels - idea was to make TTD not slowed-down, not consuming a lot of memory (like 3D map array)
09:55<hylje>i think expandable map has been considered
09:56<hylje>ie. "teleports" to arbitrary map extension points
09:56<hylje>for arbitrary shaped bridge platforms and tunnels
09:56<@Belugas>where is the "english" button/flag ?
09:56<Ammler>since trams, we played much with RV's, found out that tunnels are "good" overtaking parts for faster RV's
09:56<SmatZ>hylje: yes, this way I though
09:58<hylje>it needs a neat design and someone to hac-- implement it
09:59<Ammler>Belugas: just images...
09:59<Maedhros>magic tunnels would probably be a lot easier than bridges
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10:00<Maedhros>all you have to do with tunnels is tell the train where to come out, in which direction, and how long it should take
10:00<hylje>:o
10:00<hylje>so.. diagonal tunnels pls?
10:00<Maedhros>whereas with bridges it has to be visible all the way, and actually follow the track
10:01<Ammler>so tunnels are already teleporters
10:01<@Belugas>i agree, Maedhros
10:01<Maedhros>so are bridges, technically
10:02<hylje>bridges just pretend they have the train on them
10:02<@Belugas>the problem with tunnels will be how to viusually set the exit tile, i think
10:02<@Belugas>while building it...
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10:02<hylje>the same way autorail decides which way the rail piece goes
10:02<@Belugas>fine, do it
10:02<hylje>its much easier given just three potential directions
10:03<hylje>what, me?
10:03<hylje>oh noes
10:03<@Belugas>you just miss the elevation part
10:03<hylje>elevation is tricky with magic
10:04<hylje>i'd say one shouldnt do it before magic-removal bridges and tunnels
10:05<Rubidium>and when you remove the magic, you can add signals in tunnels and bridge too (or even stations)
10:06<hylje>other tunnels!
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10:08[~]Belugas has an idea he would like to test
10:08<SmatZ>isn't all of this possible in Locomotion?
10:08<@Belugas>maybe, don't know. so?
10:09<hylje>loco isnt ttd
10:09<SmatZ>maybe there could start some project 'openlocomotion', with all these features already done
10:09<hylje>:o
10:09<hylje>i got a perverse idea
10:10<hylje>of implementing newGRF on a stackless python-based ttd-like app
10:10<hylje>actually, that'd be quite doable too
10:12<Ammler>before It's getting forgotten: Is the "Bug" with building over bought land already in the tracker?
10:12<hylje>you can add it yourself
10:12<@Belugas>**IF** **EVER** diagonal tunnel, it will require diagonal tunnel entrance sprites
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10:13<hylje>hmm
10:13<@Belugas>current ones are not good for this purpose
10:13<hylje>yeah, true
10:13<Ammler>hylje: so, I'm the first who found it :)
10:13<hylje>quite possible
10:14<@Belugas>further more, the current way of building tunnels would have to be changed, like click here for entrance and clicke there for exit, or something like that
10:14<SmatZ>diagonal road would be nice too
10:14<@Belugas>forget it, not enough room on the map for now
10:14<hylje>SmatZ: mostly a sprite issue
10:14<@Belugas>and hat too yes, but mostly, the room
10:15<SmatZ>hylje: I am not sure about free map bits and road/rail crossings
10:15<hylje>o
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10:16<Ammler>hmm, how does jabber function with flyspray?
10:16<hylje>just out of curiosity, how bolted-in are any newgrf engines?
10:16<+glx>it doesn't AFAIK
10:19<Ammler>oh, Maedhros removed the "complete" from the diagonal crossing. :)
10:19<Ammler>or better :(
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10:19<hylje>if i ever get time for designing and building a truly Free ttd clone, i could use a common newgrf thing
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10:55<Rubidium>hylje: only you can't implement NewGRF as it wouldn't be truly free
10:56<Maedhros>how so?
10:57<Rubidium>the "default" values are not truly free (I think)
10:57<Rubidium>they are part of TTD
10:59<hylje>default values in what sense?
11:00<DaleStan>Like the default values for vehicle property 0. But most default values are not part of TTD.
11:00<Rubidium>a newgrf does change the default values, i.e. I can make a newgrf that only changes the speed of vehicles but doesn't change anything else
11:01<hylje>then newgrf needs a subset that does not involve default values? :p
11:02<@Belugas>it is in the essence of newgrf to work that way
11:02<hylje>:o
11:02<@Belugas>you would be better off with a new system of your own...
11:02<hylje>that'd be good too
11:03<hylje>something that is quite human readable!
11:03<@Belugas>are you saying that DaleStan is not human ? ;)
11:03<hylje>hence quite
11:03<hylje>but its not like i could get started in that project anytime soon
11:04<hylje>however not all is lost, maybe in a few years i could use my leet skills for that :)
11:04<Rubidium>you must make it completely XML as people do want that and you can do anything with XML...
11:04<hylje>XML problems are solved like violence, by more of it
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11:05<@Belugas>and if it's not XML, it's LUA or god knows waht else...
11:05<Rubidium><sprite width="1" height="1"><pixel red="255" blue="255" green="0" alpha="128" /></sprite>
11:05<Rubidium>see, completely XML ;)
11:05<Rubidium>completely human readable
11:06<hylje>human-readable images, hweh
11:06[~]manveru prays that this won't happen
11:07<Maedhros>svg ;)
11:08<Rubidium>better use blender directly ;)
11:08<hylje>heh
11:08<hylje>blender-scripted ttd
11:08<hylje>but i'd think my design would aim for somewhat playable
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11:11<hylje>hmm
11:11<hylje>i think distributed computing could be involved too
11:11<hylje>trains would run in just one box in a network game
11:12<@Belugas>and multithreading too, don't forget that...
11:12<hylje>stackless is mini-multithreading
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11:12<hylje>trains would essentially get their own microthread
11:12<manveru>hmm, ttd in erlang :)
11:12<@Belugas>and why not savegame in XML too ;)
11:12<hylje>but it doesnt scale on multiple processors as it is
11:12<hylje>but it can spawn multiple "servers" on a single box
11:13<hylje>which would quite seamlessly work together
11:15<Rubidium>by the way, what's stackless?
11:15<Rubidium>a 2 byte stack?
11:15<hylje>a python flavour
11:15<Rubidium>I don't eat pythons ;)
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11:16<hylje>but you can lick one though
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11:17<Maedhros>is that still maintained? i thought it had been abandoned a while ago
11:17<hylje>it's still maintained
11:18<hylje>and got commercial usage mostly by CCP of eve online
11:18<Maedhros>ooh, ok
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11:18<CIA-2>OpenTTD: glx * r10923 /trunk/src/saveload.cpp: -Codechange: use 'real' exception handling in saveload code
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12:04<Ammler>http://bugs.openttd.org/task/1120 <-- is there already a newGRF with ARV? (except Hiroshima)
12:08<Maedhros>hmm
12:08[~]Maedhros hadn't seen that bug
12:09<Maedhros>anyway, the generic tram set has arvs
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12:16<Ammler>Belugas, did you ever see Cargo Trams in RL :P
12:17<+glx>they exists IRL
12:17<Maedhros>one of them is actually called the CarGo tram :p
12:18<Eddi|zuHause3>more exactly "CarGoTram" :)
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12:18<@Belugas>the only tram i ever took was on a museum ;)
12:18<@Belugas>the only cargo that i saw was passengers :D
12:19<Eddi|zuHause3>you don't have trams in canada?
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12:20<Ammler>http://www.vbz.ch/vbz_opencms/opencms/vbz/deutsch/Dienstleistungen/Cargotram/ <--- :o we have here
12:20<@Belugas>not in Quebec, at least
12:20<Eddi|zuHause3>compare these two sentences:
12:21<@Belugas>well... for sure, not in Montreal, not too sure about Quebec city
12:21<Eddi|zuHause3>CarGoTram (Dresden) - Wikipedia
12:21<Eddi|zuHause3>Die CarGoTram ist eine
12:21<Eddi|zuHause3>[...]
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12:21<Eddi|zuHause3>Cargotram (Zürich) - Wikipedia
12:21<Eddi|zuHause3>Das Cargotram ist ein [...]
12:23<Eddi|zuHause3>it has different gender in (east) germany and in switzerland :)
12:23<ln->the one in Dresden is for girls?
12:24<Eddi|zuHause3>well, actually, the word "tram" is not very common in east germany, usually it's "die Straßenbahn", and "artificial" replacement words often take on the gender of the original word associated with them
12:25<Ammler>omg, "Die Tram..."
12:25<Eddi|zuHause3>same as you would say "die URL" for "die [Internet-]Seite", while it would technically be "der [...] Locator"
12:27<Ammler>But still I'm once per week in Zürich and never saw this cargotram, I have to looking more for it
12:29<Eddi|zuHause3>looks like it is a garbage collector
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12:40<Phazorx>Belugas: there are streetcars in Toronto
12:41<Eddi|zuHause3>Phazorx: you mean "busses"?
12:41<Phazorx>nope
12:42<Phazorx>trams, but they are called streetcars
12:42<@Belugas>Never been in Toronto. Good to know :)
12:42<Phazorx>http://transit.toronto.on.ca/streetcar/index.shtml
12:43<Phazorx>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toronto_streetcar_system
12:43<Ammler>Phazorx: also cargo?
12:43<Phazorx>nope
12:43<Phazorx>i only saw cargo trams as part of repair crews back in .ru
12:43<Phazorx>and only during night
12:44<Eddi|zuHause3>not the most promising photo on the front page :p
12:44<Phazorx>they are not used for transportation, only as utility vehicles
12:49<Phazorx>hmm
12:49<Phazorx>http://transit.toronto.on.ca/images/streetcar-4510-09.jpg
12:49<Phazorx>http://transit.toronto.on.ca/images/streetcar-4510-08.jpg
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12:59<Ameecher>peter1138, you there?
13:01<CIA-2>OpenTTD: maedhros * r10924 /trunk/src/roadveh_cmd.cpp:
13:01<CIA-2>OpenTTD: -Fix [FS#1120]: VS_STOPPED is only set for the front part of an articulated
13:01<CIA-2>OpenTTD: road vehicle, so don't check any other parts when testing if the vehicle is
13:01<CIA-2>OpenTTD: stopped inside a depot.
13:04<Maedhros>Ameecher: he hasn't spoken since 10 this morning - i think he's on holiday at the moment, so isn't around as much
13:05<Ameecher>ah right, thank you Maedhros
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14:50<Wolf01>'night
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15:28<CIA-2>OpenTTD: richk * r10925 /branches/NewGRF_ports/ (3 files in 3 dirs):
15:28<CIA-2>OpenTTD: [NewGRF_ports] -Add: Added graphics placement of Intercontinental and Helistation. State Machines not yet functional.
15:28<CIA-2>OpenTTD: -Change: Both Intercontinental and Helistation now loaded for old games.
15:28<CIA-2>OpenTTD: **All old game airports now have newgrf equivalents.**
15:30<Eddi|zuHause3>***just they don't work yet*** :)
15:31<RichK67>a minor issue ;) just time in editing a newgrf now.... no more coding needed for original airports
15:31<@Bjarni>that's the idea of having a branch... you can break stuff and not have to fix it right away
15:32<@Bjarni>I mean, you can think about the big picture rather than thinking about how to make it playable all the time
15:32<RichK67>yeah - except of course to test the state machine, i have to be able to play it
15:33<RichK67>so it gets sort of circular
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15:33<@Bjarni>testable isn't always the same as playable
15:33<RichK67>but the important thing is whether the airport loads... all state machine stuff after that is just data
15:33<@Bjarni>or enjoyable
15:34<RichK67>yeah... its why ive done the LaGuardia and seaplane airports early, as they are fun, and i wanted a little entertainment along the way ;)
15:34<@Bjarni>say you make some unsound balance stuff that you know you will have to solve before merging, but something else needs to be done first, then the game can run, but it's likely not enjoyable
15:36<Prof_Frink>Bjarni: Basically, a branch solves this problem: http://headrush.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/2007/04/06/incremental1.jpg
15:42<Eddi|zuHause3>yeah, we urgently need a revolution! :p
15:43<@Bjarni>yeah, that's a good picture of why branches are needed
15:43<@Bjarni>Eddi|zuHause3: but we already got rid of the communists...
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15:44<Eddi|zuHause3>so what? we could have an islamic revolution or something :)
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19:23<CIA-2>OpenTTD: belugas * r10926 /trunk/src/newgrf_industries.cpp:
19:23<CIA-2>OpenTTD: -Feature: [NewGRF] Add support for variable 67(for real this time) and 68 of Variational Action 2 for Industries
19:23<CIA-2>OpenTTD: -Fix: a very few codestyle/comments-typo changes
19:38<@Belugas>Dalestan, my compliments :)
19:38<@Belugas>you mande me laugh so much this evening :D
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---Logclosed Fri Aug 17 00:00:12 2007