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#openttd IRC Logs for 2007-08-24

---Logopened Fri Aug 24 00:00:10 2007
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03:16<TrueBrain>Sacro: you made that? :)
03:16<TrueBrain>downside of MLCad is that you can't render in a simple way
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03:45<Syphic>anyone in here in the game by FacePLant? or something like that?
03:46<@Bjarni>what is FacePLant?
03:46<Syphic>one of the servers
03:46<@Bjarni>well, I'm not ;)
03:47<Syphic>Its called Face_Punch_*****
03:47<Syphic>are u playing any games? atm?
03:47<@Bjarni>actually I'm playing a cool game right now called RL
03:48<@Bjarni>it's about how other people will make you pay fortunes for nearly nothing
03:48<Syphic>oops RealLife*
03:48<Syphic>ah ok
03:48<@Bjarni>the point is to avoid such incidents, which can be tricky :s
03:49<Syphic>got ya... well im more of a ttd person biz games
03:49<Syphic>what does NoBrk stand for?
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03:50<TheMask96>No Breakdowns
03:50<Syphic>so is anyone in here actually playing ttd?
03:51<TrueBrain>nah, we just hang here
03:51<Syphic>do yall even like the game
03:53<Syphic>anyways ltr
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03:58<alex_>what the hell is that supposed to mean?
03:58<Rubidium>that the first mouse dies in the mouse trap
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04:09<Nickman>hi all
04:10<alex_>lol Rubidium
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04:39<TrueBrain>somehow I think it isn't that clear...
04:39<Nickman>looks cool
04:39<TrueBrain>but you can't really see the topleft thing of going down
04:40<Nickman>that is indeed hard to see
04:40<TrueBrain>then it is always a bit hard to see
04:40<TrueBrain>but still
04:40<Nickman>maybe you should see it on a bigger scale?
04:40<TrueBrain>means adding more tiles ;)
04:40<Nickman>like bigger platform
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04:44<TrueBrain>more often I am fighting Blender than that it is working for me :p
04:44<TrueBrain>hidden options all over the place :p
04:44<Nickman>hehe, you need to know the right keys to press ;)
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04:51<Progman>TrueBrain: is it a raised tile or corner?
04:52<Progman>maybe its better to use the roof-stones instead of this
04:52<TrueBrain>but then you can't build on it
04:52<Nickman>it's a bit slippery then :)
04:53|-|mikk36[EST] changed nick to mikk36
04:54|-|Nickman changed nick to Nickman^Away
04:57<Progman>am I right you are using only 3 level steps instead of 4?
04:57<Progman>maybe it works better if you start rasing at the edge of the tile
04:57<TrueBrain>4 steps is the next floor
04:58<TrueBrain>in this case it looks like 3, but that is beause the top isn't part of the next floor yet
04:58<TrueBrain>hmm, height is fucked up anyway :(
04:59<Progman>can you raise a tile and post a screenshot?
04:59<TrueBrain>after correcting the height, I will
05:01<TrueBrain>not 100% perfect yet
05:04<Progman>and if you use the relation "3 lego-steps ~ 1 ottd height"?
05:04<TrueBrain>but okay, it indeed is a 3 step
05:05<Progman>anyway, you get it ;)
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05:21<TrueBrain>hmm, I really need to make that 4 lego steps are 1 ottd height
05:21<TrueBrain>so far the attempts ... well... failed :p
05:23<Noldo>so in that picture the top most stud of the slope is the same height as the top of the hill?
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05:26<TrueBrain>I need to make a few other pictures first, before I can see if this really works :)
05:32<TrueBrain>and now, now I need to pick up my gf :) Be back later, much later :p
05:33<TrueBrain>far from perfect :p
05:34<Progman>but almost close ;)
05:35<blathijs>TrueBrain: That's rendered by openttd? Nice :-)
05:36<Noldo>I wonder hos the will could jump up more
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05:45<kaan>hi all
05:46<Noldo>s/hos/how/ and s/will/hill/
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06:01<Nickman^Away>TrueBrain, looking good ;)
06:02<Noldo>TrueBrain: what git version do you use?
06:02<Rubidium>I guess gentoo's latest stable
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06:16<TrueBrain>hmm, it looked better then I thought :)
06:16<TrueBrain>how nice ;)
06:21<Eddi|zuHause3>i really like the new green
06:24<blathijs>TrueBrain: Did you try using the "schuine blokjes" for the slops instead of a stairs of blocks?
06:24<blathijs>angled bricks, would be the word
06:25<TrueBrain>blathijs: you can't build on those!
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07:20<svip>What variable in _prices stores how much it cost to clear farmland?
07:23<Maedhros>have a look in ClearTile_Clear
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07:30<svip>GetClearGround, hm. :O
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07:47<Digitalfox>Hello :)
07:48<Digitalfox>What do i need to create a portuguese newgrf of town names?? Decode one already existing for other language and replace names or is there some tutorial?
07:49<Maedhros>this is the manual page:
07:49<izhirahider>Digitalfox, hey
07:50<+glx>Digitalfox: I converted 2 of the original OTTD townname generators into action F
07:50<izhirahider>Digitalfox, Sorry for that, I haven't had time for it before
07:50<Digitalfox>hey izhirahider :)
07:50<izhirahider>and seriously, the newgrf thing kinda turned me down considerably
07:50<Digitalfox>izhirahider: I know, that's why i'm going to try
07:52<izhirahider>What time do you have for it?
07:53<Digitalfox>glx, tha's cool :) but if there were one in english, at least would be easier, but i can always translate sweden to english and then english to portuguese :)
07:53<Digitalfox>izhirahider: A lot ;)
07:54<+glx>Digitalfox: I can't convert the english generators because they use ReplaceWord()
07:54<Digitalfox>So anyone knows a good site for translating sweden to english? ;)
07:55<+glx>what do you want translate?
07:55<+glx>there are just list of townname parts
07:58<Digitalfox>Well, for me is easy to just translate the names on sweden to portuguese and try to make the newgrf worl well :)
07:58<izhirahider>it doesn't work like that Digitalfox
07:58<+glx>you want to translate townnames?
07:58<izhirahider>our town generator is much more complex
07:58<izhirahider>it requires programming
07:58<izhirahider>I'm affraid newgrf doesn't allow that, only combinations per se
07:59<Digitalfox>Well i'll give it a shot anyway!
08:01<+glx>jpset_namw.grf uses only full names
08:02<Digitalfox>I'll try and see what i can do..
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08:03<+glx>izhirahider: can I see your generator?
08:03<izhirahider>glx, thanks for asking. I'll quite busy at this time to send it though, maybe at some later time I can show you, if you don't mind
08:06<TrueBrain>it looks ugly :(
08:06<TrueBrain>depth perception totally fails
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08:08<+glx>TrueBrain: wrong offset for one it seems
08:08<Progman>weird antialias thing
08:08<TrueBrain>glx: no, not all tiles are converted to the new coordinates :)
08:09<TrueBrain>and the red is just a silly thing of me :)
08:10<+glx>use a lighter green if possible
08:10<TrueBrain>still doesn't give any depth perception
08:14<Noldo>the slopes aren't exactly the same color in the originals
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08:25<Eddi|zuHause3><TrueBrain> depth perception totally fails <- a grid might help that :)
08:26<Eddi|zuHause3><Noldo> the slopes aren't exactly the same color in the originals <- yes, but here, slopes are not slopes, but steps of flat tiles, so you don't have "lighting effects" to explain the colours (especially on the backwards slopes)
08:26<Nickman^Away>it's a bit to green i think TrueBrain... :D
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08:27<Nickman^Away>to much of the same clour
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08:30<TrueBrain>[15:25] <Eddi|zuHause3> <TrueBrain> depth perception totally fails <- a grid might help that :) <- nope, 1 tile itself doens't have depth perception
08:30<@Belugas>i'll go along glx's opinion: colors might do the trick
08:30<TrueBrain>Belugas: nope, tried :(
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08:35<Noldo>you are going to end up modeling it with blender
08:35<frosch123>Who wants to pay 4.99 pounds for TTDP?
08:35<Eddi|zuHause3>i'd suggest different colours per height level, but the system probably does not allow this
08:35<TrueBrain>this _is_ blender
08:38<@Belugas>for TTD<P> ???
08:39<frosch123>The advertisment on
08:39<@Belugas>TrueBrain, i guess that blender is good, but doing some manual modifications are good too :)
08:39<@Belugas>IIRC, this is the conclusion Wolf01 came up with
08:40<@Belugas>frosch123, i don't see that. Maybe a banner thing :(
08:40<Noldo>google ads
08:41<joosa`>e links
08:41<joosa`>pe1617.16 -!- Topic set by TrueBrain [] [Sun Aug 19 00:15:49 2007]
08:41<joosa`>pe1617.16 [Users #openttd]
08:41<joosa`>pe1617.16 [@Belugas ] [ BTH_ ] [ eQualizer ] [ marc-andre ] [ raimar3 ] [ TheMask96 ]
08:41<joosa`>sry, the mouse dropped and clicked paste
08:43<joosa`>I got a strong deja vu from that.
08:44|-|joosa` changed nick to joosa
08:44<frosch123>Well, it links to a page, where it seems you could buy TTDX with win XP support for 4.99 pounds.
08:45<frosch123>But the FAQ says: "All the games mentioned on this site are Abandonware. We do not sell these games. What we do sell, is the ability to play these games on Windows XP. The money that you pay, is ONLY buying our software and packaging costs."
08:45<frosch123>So I guess, they sell TTDP on a nice CD or something.
08:46<ln->well that's not illegal.
08:46<frosch123>No, I just asked, who wants to buy TTDP for 4.99.
08:46<@Belugas>ho... TTDX... I kinda remember an offer similar to that one, but with the screenshot provided, it looked more like OTTD then TTDP
08:46<ln->if they sell the "abandonware" game too, then it is illegal.
08:46<@Belugas>it was on EBay, IIRC
08:47<frosch123>Well the abandonware thingy is only in the "tiny things". I cannot see it on the main selling page.
08:48<Noldo>quite interesting business logic I have to say
08:56<skidd13>Today I found out a quite interesting point regarding the legal existence of openttd. Even if ATATRI forbids OpenTTD (What isn't legal anyway) they have to pay all the developers and patch writers for their work. =) And they probably won't.
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10:03<svip>Should I add a button to the railway/road/etc. building toolbars.
10:03<svip>Or to the main toolbar.
10:05<Eddi|zuHause3>maybe add a submenu to the landscaping button, one entry opens the terraforming toolbar, and the other the "land usage" toolbar, with different sets of highlighting filters (town rating, tile owner etc.)
10:07<Eddi|zuHause3>it's one of the long standing feature requests, a way to easily spot stray unelectrified pieces of rail
10:07<Eddi|zuHause3>and the tile highlighting sounds like the perfect solution
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10:10<Eddi|zuHause3>other idea for filter: accepted goods
10:10<Eddi|zuHause3>but that can be extended later :)
10:11<Eddi|zuHause3>it could also be a submenu entry of another button
10:11<Eddi|zuHause3>like where the transparency toolbar is
10:11<Eddi|zuHause3>that even sounds like a better idea :)
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10:13<Eddi|zuHause3>you know the transparency gui?
10:13<svip>I do not.
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10:16<Eddi|zuHause3>svip: in the options menu (the one with the wrench), there is "game options", "difficulty options", "patch options", "newgrf options" and "transparency options"
10:17<svip>Sounds like a plan.
10:20<Eddi|zuHause3>there you can add "highlighting options"
10:21<svip>Good idea.
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10:44<frosch123>bye, going home...
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10:47<TrueBrain>k, girlfriend is sleeping
10:47<TrueBrain>back to the blender
10:48<@peter1138>with the frogs?
10:48<Eddi|zuHause3>frogs say "quak" here...
10:48<TrueBrain>does it look like I care? :p
10:49<Eddi|zuHause3>do you care if i said 'yes'?
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10:50<TrueBrain>as it means I can run an other @kick line ;)
10:51<Eddi|zuHause3>hmm... i'm not in a mood to be kicked right now...
10:51<TrueBrain>pfew :p
10:54<TrueBrain>bah, I need a real artist in here :p
10:54<TrueBrain>as I can't make it like I would like to :p
10:56<TrueBrain>I can't get this depth visible :(
10:57<TrueBrain>I guess I need a second sun :)
10:58<@Belugas>in here, frogs would rather sound like "wrebbit" ;)
10:59<Eddi|zuHause3>those are american frogs :p
11:00<svip>SVN question.
11:00<svip>If I rename a file, how do I coupe with that?
11:00<svip>Like with svn add stuff.
11:01<TrueBrain>svn move
11:01<@Bjarni>svn move file new_file
11:01<TrueBrain>amazing how simple life is :p
11:01<@Bjarni>svn help move (if you really need to read this)
11:01<@Bjarni>you might want to read "svn help" anyway to see what it can do for you
11:01<Nickman>so, no progress on thebricks TrueBrain? :)
11:02<TrueBrain>backward progress :p
11:02<Nickman>that's bad progress :D
11:02<Nickman>I'm at episode 18 of heroes ATM :)
11:03<Eddi|zuHause3>that's where *insert really bad spoiler here*?
11:03<Nickman>hehe :D
11:03<Nickman>I don't really care about spoilers, but the rest in here might ;)
11:03<Eddi|zuHause3>i care...
11:03<TrueBrain>but we don't care about the rest :)
11:03<TrueBrain>you is all that matters!
11:03<@Bjarni>wtf is heroes?
11:04<Nickman>a series
11:04<Eddi|zuHause3>the greatest series on earth...
11:04<TrueBrain>Bjarni: clearly you aren't :p
11:04<Nickman>the greatest? hehe
11:04<Eddi|zuHause3>yeah, it's way beyond lost...
11:04<Nickman>Lost gives to little answers and to much questions :)
11:05<@Bjarni>yeah, I might not care about spoilers from heroes
11:05<Eddi|zuHause3>Bjarni: you would if you watched it...
11:05<@Bjarni>and "episode 18 of heroes" kind of gave the series part of it away ;)
11:06<TrueBrain>at least I have the height figured out
11:06<TrueBrain>hmm, not 100%, but almost in fact :p
11:07<Nickman>that's cool :)
11:07<Nickman>the tiles going down on the top right have a bug in them
11:07<Eddi|zuHause3>the steps look kind of irregular... especially the backwards down steps
11:08<TrueBrain>on the back are wrong somehow yes
11:08<TrueBrain>but to the front are perfect, as far as I can tell
11:08<Eddi|zuHause3>yeah, but the half-slopes have different step size than the full slopes
11:08<TrueBrain>full slopes are the only one done
11:08<TrueBrain>ignore the rest
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11:09<Eddi|zuHause3>the upwards slopes on the right also have a wrong step height
11:10<Nickman>how are you making them nowe TrueBrain?
11:10<TrueBrain>Nickman: via Blender
11:10<Nickman>you can test the commandline rendering ;)
11:11<TrueBrain>that too :)
11:11<Nickman>go for it ;)
11:11<TrueBrain>just the light is wrong
11:11<TrueBrain>which sucks
11:12<TrueBrain>I can also make it a bit transparent? :)
11:12<Nickman>there is a lightning setup somewhere on the forums?
11:12<TrueBrain>via wiki
11:12<TrueBrain>in a blender file
11:12<TrueBrain>not the most clear way, if you ask me
11:12<TrueBrain>but okay
11:13<Nickman>make it clearer ;)
11:14<svip>Hm, Eddi|zuHause3.
11:14<svip>I have formed an idea!
11:14<svip>How about we allow the users to pick which "tile" type they want to use for a specific highlight.
11:14<Sacro>TrueBrain: did you see my rendering?
11:14<TrueBrain>Sacro: I believe so yes
11:14<svip>Like "use select highlight for A, and inner highlight for B."
11:14<TrueBrain>it was pretty nice :)
11:15<TrueBrain>too bad it is almost imposisble to go from MLCad to any real renderer
11:15<Sacro>TrueBrain: real... like POV-RAY?
11:15<svip>So there will be small drop down menus showing all possible zoning.
11:15<TrueBrain>POV really sucks :s
11:15<Sacro>or like Blender?
11:15<Sacro>you can go ldraw -> blender
11:15<svip>Does text in a window require a widget?
11:15<TrueBrain>Sacro: tried, I couldn't find anything
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11:17<svip>And how do I make a drop down box widget?
11:17<Nickman>maybe a plugin TrueBrain?
11:18<TrueBrain>Nickman: tried, I couldn't find anything
11:18<Nickman>look harder!!! :D
11:18<Nickman>I wanna play with lego :(
11:18<Eddi|zuHause3>svip: hm, i don't really like that idea... either only use the inner highlighting, or make a colour variant for the outer highlighting, if it would collide with mouse selection (white, red, blue)
11:19<TrueBrain>currently I am confirming my upwards slope is pixel perfect
11:19<TrueBrain>and it is :) :)
11:19<TrueBrain>oh doh
11:19<TrueBrain>not 100%
11:19<TrueBrain>like 95% :p
11:19<Nickman>that's not the way to roll!
11:19<svip>I disagree, I still like it, Eddi|zuHause3.
11:20<Eddi|zuHause3>svip: the GUI should not get too complicated
11:20<svip>That's why people pick some sane choices for the "outer" highlight.
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11:20<svip>It won't.
11:20<TrueBrain>k, then I wonder, the backwards going down stuff
11:20<TrueBrain>does it just LOOK wrong
11:20<TrueBrain>or is it really wrong...
11:21<Nickman>is IS :D
11:21<Nickman>it cuts off a piece
11:21<TrueBrain>no, it looks wrong
11:21<TrueBrain>because it misses other tiles
11:21<Nickman>when there are two tiles below each other
11:21<Nickman>the upper one seems to be to high
11:22<Nickman>it covers to much of the tile below it
11:22<Sacro>TrueBrain: google ldraw to blender
11:22<TrueBrain>Sacro: I searched for ldr to blender :p
11:23<Sacro>TrueBrain: a rather primitive scanner?
11:23<TrueBrain>would be useful if you could load them directly :)
11:23<TrueBrain>but I have to say I am not using the correct scaling :s
11:23<Sacro>hmm, the site is wrong
11:24<Sacro>well i can render to a bmp
11:24<Sacro>but if i can export to blender, that'd be easier
11:24<Sacro>cos then i can just do models
11:24<TrueBrain>you want models :)
11:24<TrueBrain>anyway, the Z-scaling isn't the same as the X/Y scaling
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11:24<TrueBrain>that I needed to make it look right
11:24<TrueBrain>(else you go up twice as fast)
11:25<Sacro>it's not orthographic is it?
11:25<TrueBrain>but for most other things that won't be a real problem I guess...
11:26<TrueBrain>Sacro: I refuse to comment on it, as I have it always wrong :p
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11:26<TrueBrain>hmm, I wish I knew how to change the grid in Blender :)
11:26<TrueBrain>hi skidd13, wb :)
11:26<Sacro>TrueBrain: hehe
11:26<Sacro>well i did a nice model of a freight wagon
11:26<TrueBrain>It was very nice indeed :)
11:27<TrueBrain>find a way to get it imported :)
11:27<Sacro>i shall
11:27<Sacro>well do you want PNG renders?
11:27<Sacro>or a model?
11:27<TrueBrain>model would be best
11:27<TrueBrain>as then we can apply the same lightning as all other models
11:27<TrueBrain>and proofs Nickman's concept, that the 32bpp site should only accepts blender files :)
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11:28<Sacro>yes, alright
11:28<TrueBrain>hmm, it looks like on the backwards stuff, the drawing is done in the wrong order...
11:28<skidd13>TrueBrain: :)
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11:29<Sacro>grrr, the is down
11:29<Nickman>that too could be possible TrueBrain ;)
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11:30<TrueBrain>hi Wolf01 :)
11:30<TrueBrain> <- via Blender :)
11:30<Wolf01>nice :)
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11:31<TrueBrain>it is a bit wrong
11:31<TrueBrain>just slightly
11:31<TrueBrain>but it annoys me
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11:31<_Ben_>TrueBrain is it the slightly increase for the 4th step thats a bit wrong?
11:31<Priski>lego theme would be lot nicer than toyland
11:32<TrueBrain>_Ben_: yes, the height of a single tile just doesn't work out with the next tile
11:32<TrueBrain>so step 1 and step 4 are a mismatch
11:32<TrueBrain>about 0.2 pixel :p
11:32<_Ben_>It seems to work really nicely on the slope on the bottom right, why not mirror that?
11:32<TrueBrain>_Ben_: they _are_ mirrored... Blender -> Anim, 4 frames with different viewpoint
11:33<_Ben_>I mean mirror the render (for the bottom to front facing sides
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11:34<TrueBrain>they should be an exact mirror... let me check
11:35<TrueBrain>bah, even thinking seems to fail.. it is hot in here :(
11:36<Wolf01>i hope that when you'll finish it you'll remember to credit me :D
11:36<TrueBrain>hehe :p
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11:37<TrueBrain>_Ben_: btw, thisone you might know: the backwards going down thingies have very bad depth view, because the light comes from the front (where the user looks from)
11:37<TrueBrain>any easy way to give it back some depth prespective?
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11:38<_Ben_>brightness-contrast in PS, or (not shore about gimp). maybe hue-saturation a little also
11:38<TrueBrain>is it possible via Blender?
11:39<_Ben_>hmm, yes, changing the diffuse settings should do it, I'm not exactly shore how to do that, I always do it post render, as its quicker to get correct
11:39<TrueBrain>hehe :)
11:39<svip>Does WE_PAINT mean?
11:39<TrueBrain>any chance you also know how to change the grid-size in Blender? :p
11:40<Wolf01>svip: put there what you need to paint
11:40<svip>As in drawing the window?
11:40<Wolf01>is a window event
11:40<Wolf01>usually there you draw the widgets and other things
11:41<_Ben_>TrueBrain: no idea I'm affriad. The grid is usually just used to give an idea of scale, you move things relative to it, rather than changing it
11:41<TrueBrain>_Ben_: but you have this lovely clipping
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11:41<TrueBrain>clipping = snap
11:41<TrueBrain>having lego it would be very useful to use snap to grid :)
11:41<Wolf01>TrueBrain, but in lego you can see the grid :D
11:42<svip>That's a pretty messed up window.
11:42<Wolf01>in temperate you don't... at least, i've never seen a grid around in real world
11:42<_Ben_>ah, I see what you mean. In max its called the angle snap toggle. I'm not shore where that is in blender, but try searching for that name
11:42<TrueBrain>k, tnx :)
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11:46<TrueBrain>_Ben_: Nickman had to idea to only allow .blend files to be uploaded for the 32bpp website, so we have the source files, instead of just the PNG.. bad idea / good idea?
11:47<Nickman>and we render the PNG files ourselfs on a server ;)
11:47<Nickman>(I could provide some CPU power for that matter ;))
11:47<_Ben_>TrueBrain, It would certaintly be a good idea to get hold of the source of models, otherwise preview shots are nothign more than a teezer
11:48<TrueBrain>but are .blend files all that we need? I mean, you already talk about doing it post-render, some changes
11:48<Nickman>I think the .blend files (or other "source" files should be neccesary) and maybe the PNG should be uploaded to...
11:48<_Ben_>2 problems. a lot of people don't use blender, including myself most of the time. 2) a lot of people seem to be reluctant to release models under gpl, but would prefer credit (cc-sa)
11:49<Nickman>credit CAN be provided...
11:49<Nickman>that won't be much of a problem I think?
11:49<Nickman>the one that uploads the source gets the credit...
11:49<Noldo>Nickman: gpl doesn't promise that everybody who uses the file gives credit
11:50<TrueBrain>credits aren't the problem, as long as we, as OpenTTD Developers Team, are free to do with the graphics (and source files) what ever we want
11:50<TrueBrain>I have no idea which licenses provide that :)
11:50<Nickman>No, but when they upload the file to this site, their name is next to it, so whoever downloads them, sees who it is from...
11:50<TrueBrain>Nickman: more when we release a 32bpp set (if ever)
11:50<Nickman>what do you mean? The credit will be gone then?
11:51<TrueBrain>Nickman: there are, what, 10000 images?
11:51<_Ben_>hmm, well if its specific to openttd, they could be completly copyright as long as there is personally permission that openttd can use them, and release them. But then the release of openttd with graphics would have to hold that liecence, so if its all gpl as it currently is? then there would be an issue
11:51<Nickman>Place it somwhere in a txt file or somthing, where do the credits of the developers go? :)
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11:51<TrueBrain>Nickman: long long long long long list :)
11:51<TrueBrain>_Ben_: I will ask around which licenses fits both
11:51<Nickman>no kick TrueBrain :s
11:52<_Ben_>cool, cheers. Would be nice to resolve that. I think a lot of artists would be motivated if credit is enshored
11:52<TrueBrain>credits, as in, naming who made which image, can't be a real issue
11:52<TrueBrain>just it will be a long list :p
11:52<Nickman>where are the credits of the developers?
11:52<Nickman>yeah... indeed
11:52<Nickman>make the list longer when needed ;)
11:53<TrueBrain>ideal, for us, would be that they give up the credits as GPL to OpenTTD Developer Team, and get credits in graphics.txt or what ever :)
11:54<Nickman>credits won't be that big of a problem I think :)
11:54<Nickman>there are a lot of ways of handling it
11:55<Nickman>I'm off to dinner ;)
11:55<Sacro>TrueBrain: i can't release models under the GPL
11:55<Noldo>GPL is a not the clearest license there is when it comes to media files
11:55<TrueBrain>I believe Creative License is the counter-part of GPL for images?
11:55<Sacro>at least, i don't think so
11:55<_Ben_>Sacro: why is that?
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11:58<TrueBrain>now I need to find this 'diffuse' option :p
11:58<Sacro>_Ben_: the renderings are free for personal/non commercial
11:58<TrueBrain>Sacro: we are non-commercial :) (we don't ask money :p)
12:00<Wolf01>TrueBrain, if i can find some .ldr of lego buildings, do you think that is possible to use them for brickland?
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12:00<TrueBrain>Wolf01: Sacro claims it can be done :)
12:00<TrueBrain>I couldn't find it
12:00<_Ben_>Truelight, In blender I think its called Amb and Ref, and there under the materials, wich is the red dot right of 'panels'
12:00<TrueBrain>k, tnx :)
12:00<TrueBrain>Materials I know to find :)
12:01<TrueBrain>ah, there, hidden! :)
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12:01<_Ben_>you are altering the materials rather than the LS though, so would need to do it to each. I have no idea on blend enviroment settings, which would be the other way to go about it
12:01<Tekky>Hi, I have a short question: The Signls Auto Completion Patch is in trunk, but not the corresponding signal GUI, is that correct?
12:02<TrueBrain>_Ben_: all my objects are linked to one single object, so changes to materials is instant for all :p
12:02<Wolf01>(and since the work is based on my hard work, maybe is me who should decide what license to use, don't you think so?)
12:02<_Ben_>ah, referenceing meshes. Thats pretty efficient
12:02<TrueBrain>Wolf01: we are not talking about brickland, a bit more general :)
12:03<TrueBrain>_Ben_: yeah, I hate doing things more often then strictly needed :p
12:03<Wolf01>ah ok
12:03<TrueBrain>Wolf01: and you no longer have a saying in what I do, as I started from scratch :p MWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA :)
12:04<Wolf01>the idea is mine, the images are derived from my work :)
12:04<Wolf01>i copyrighted the use of 4 studs per side
12:05<Wolf01>so you can use from 1 to 1000000 but not 4 or 0
12:05[~]TrueBrain hugs Wolf01 :)
12:05<TrueBrain>how is your road going?
12:05<TrueBrain>is lego your work?
12:05<TrueBrain>cool :p
12:05<TrueBrain>but don't worry, you will get the credit you deserve :p
12:05<TrueBrain>nah, Wolf01, I doubt I will ever finish this any way, I just want to see if 32bpp has enough in it to make stuff like tiles :)
12:06<Wolf01>why not?
12:06<TrueBrain>too much work :p :p
12:06<Sacro>Wolf01: yep, ldr is fine
12:08<Wolf01>sacro, if you have some buildings... i can do 2 villas and some vehicles with my building instructions
12:08<Sacro>Wolf01: there are lots of instructions onine
12:08<TrueBrain>lol, and all of a sudden we are done with brickland ;)
12:08<Sacro>and i have a huge box of them at home that I will collect
12:08<Sacro>TrueBrain: i've done a level crossing :p
12:09<TrueBrain>I have many many many instructions :p
12:09<Sacro>it was great
12:09<Sacro>i spent ages rummaging around looking for parts
12:09<Sacro>it was like being 8 again
12:09<TrueBrain>my brother and I played it for ages :)
12:09<Wolf01>i prefer to not use stuff i find online, specially when i'm not sure about copyrights and licenses
12:09<Sacro>Wolf01: mmm,
12:09<TrueBrain>but I dunno if you can use any of the instructions at all
12:10<Wolf01>i crawl every day brickshelf
12:10<Wolf01>and i found a lot of stuff
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12:10<Sacro>TrueBrain: well we don't have to
12:11<Sacro>i was just having fun finding different types of bricks
12:11<TrueBrain>yeah, me 2 :) but it was ment for Wolf01, as he clearly wanted to copy the instructions
12:11<Sacro>i was going to steal the big yellow lego station
12:11<Sacro> <- so nice
12:12<TrueBrain>but please first try to get a good image from ldr format
12:12<TrueBrain>or a blender
12:12<Sacro>i will upload some renderings later
12:12<Sacro>i need a page
12:13<TrueBrain>as I truely wonder if we can make correct renders from ldr
12:13<Sacro>oooh, a class 06 shunter
12:13<Sacro>yes we can
12:13<_Ben_>the nice thing about a lego set is that it would only take a short while to create all the bits in one blend file, then just reference that and build up many models
12:13<Sacro>either through pov-ray, or blender
12:13<TrueBrain>Sacro: show me :)
12:13<Sacro>TrueBrain: i'm not at home :p
12:13<TrueBrain>_Ben_: exactly what I am trying to do right now :)
12:14<TrueBrain>_Ben_: just it takes a bit of time.... as Blender isn't the most logic application :(
12:14<TrueBrain>for example, it claims that you can link multiple colors to one object, but when you try to change it in your Proxy object, it refuses....
12:14<Sacro>and my battery is dying here
12:15<TrueBrain>but okay, I now have a height problem... stupid scaling :p
12:15<Sacro>a BR APT
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12:15<TrueBrain>wait, it is supposed to be duplo...
12:15<TrueBrain>so I can scale down the Z an extra 50%
12:15<Sacro>you can't make anything good out of duplo
12:15<Sacro>the bricks are too big
12:15<TrueBrain>no, the idea was: ground-tiles are 4x4
12:15<TrueBrain>but you build 16x16 on them
12:15<_Ben_>hmm, I could model up some lego bits quite quickly maybe...although I havn't got the time at the sec. I have a lego man if its ever needed though! <¤t=legoman4.png
12:16<Wolf01>but you can stick together duplo with normal lego
12:16<TrueBrain>_Ben_: the lego man was very cool :)
12:16<TrueBrain>_Ben_: and you spent time on things that are much more important (temperate climate :p)
12:16<TrueBrain>and let us fiddle around with lego ;) hehe :)
12:16<TrueBrain>oh, yes, now the scale is much better :) :)
12:16<_Ben_>ar crap, so tempting...A lego set would be so good, although I would love to do x4 zoom for that also
12:17<TrueBrain>_Ben_: the stuff I currently make is x4 zoom ready I believe :p
12:17<TrueBrain>but okay, lego is limited in size
12:17<Wolf01> eheh
12:17<TrueBrain>so I dunno if that would really help :)
12:17<TrueBrain>omg Wolf01!!
12:17<TrueBrain>we need thatone :p
12:18<_Ben_>thats sweet. Maybe I'll make some lego bits later tonight. Still messing with scaling at the moment, trying to work out some decent ratios
12:18<Sacro> :D
12:18<Wolf01> <- see
12:18<TrueBrain>as you can see, enough stuff to base our work on :p
12:20<+glx>Wolf01: so 4x4 duplo means 8x8 "normal"
12:20<TrueBrain>glx: 8x8 indeed
12:20<TrueBrain>silly me with 16x16.. that is wrong :)
12:24<_Ben_>TrueBrain: I proposed that trains could be made to 1:2, but I think I'm going to change that back to 1:1. I said it because of tunnels and bridge, but I think we can get away with it if the tunnels are modelled well. But the other concern would be train length. Is it plausable that trains will be able to be longer at some point? If so, would we need to model the trains in elements so parts of the train can disapear at differnt times as it goes into a tunne
12:25<TrueBrain>_Ben_: I truely wouldn't know
12:25<TrueBrain>I think a wagon shouldn't exceed a single tile for now
12:25<Nickman>so, any progress on the lego TrueBrain? :)
12:25<_Ben_>the tunnels only give room for about half a tile long trains really, so for that problem 2 or 1 tiles would be the same
12:26<@Belugas>personally, if you ask me, i would way that the proportions of today's game should not change in any kind of 32bpp project.
12:26<Eddi|zuHause>Tekky: no, a different auto completition patch is in trunk, which has no gui
12:26<TrueBrain>hmm.. Rubidium / peter1138 / Maedhros: any input from you guys on this?
12:26<@Belugas>would loose the aspect., the feel..
12:26<TrueBrain>I agree with you Belugas
12:26<TrueBrain>I personally dislike big-anything
12:27[~]Belugas hugs TrueBrain
12:27<TrueBrain>but that is just personally :)
12:28<@Belugas>i know! We should ask athanasio :) such a priceless resource ;)
12:28<TrueBrain>Nickman: I believe I finally got it :)
12:28<TrueBrain>trying them in game right now...
12:28<Nickman>the logo's?
12:28<TrueBrain>oh boy oh boy :)
12:28<_Ben_>I think we should keep them as close to the original as posible, but at higher zoom things need to be scaled consitently, and there is little consitency for original graphics. When you zoom in an see a TGV that is only 6.25m long it really looks odd. It would be nice to have the width/height scales the same, but allow full length, and that wouldn't effect game play dramatically
12:28<Rubidium>(rail)road vehicles must not exceed the current size of the vehicles, otherwise you are going to get into one *very* big hell with blitting and such. Even though it's fairly broken at this moment, it is going to get much worse with larger vehicles.
12:29<Nickman>show us!!! :D
12:29<TrueBrain>DOH! Almost :'(
12:29<Rubidium>and stop using those "measures" everyone has given for the size of a tile. They do not apply to anything.
12:29<TrueBrain>Rubidium: take a deep breath :)
12:29<Eddi|zuHause>hm, for lego vehicles, 16x16 would be a much better scale
12:30<Rubidium>TrueBrain: YOU wanted my input ;)
12:30<TrueBrain>let me explain a few things Rubidium: currently we are trying to gather information for artists to create 32bpp image
12:30<TrueBrain>it needs a guideline
12:30<@Belugas>_Ben_, although i understant your point, i think that changing proportion ingame, depending of the zomm level, might bring a whole lot of problems, been technical or visual or even else
12:30<Eddi|zuHause>means a vehicle can be 4x8
12:30<TrueBrain>bah, so close, yet so far away :(
12:30<+glx>a small lego wagon (no bogie) is 6x16
12:31<Rubidium>TrueBrain: but the "measurement" that a tile is *always* 12.5 or 25 meter is stupid and won't work.
12:31<TrueBrain>Belugas / glx: you 2 were right, making it brighter did do the trick, just not in the way I expected :)
12:31<TrueBrain>Rubidium: therefor _Ben_ suggested to scale Trains and Aircrafts 1:2, and Ships 1:3 I believe
12:31<@Belugas>French Power!!
12:31<Eddi|zuHause>glx: all cars i have seen are 4x??
12:31<Rubidium>in that case the steel mill would span the whole map
12:31<TrueBrain>the reason we have this talk :)
12:31<Rubidium>and a big oil tanker 60 tiles
12:32<_Ben_>big oil tankers (biggest in the world) would be 8
12:32<+glx>Eddi|zuHause: cars are 4x yes but wagons are 6x
12:32<Eddi|zuHause>i have never had lego rail...
12:32<_Ben_>a more suitable one for the game could be modelled to be about 3-4 and still look plausable
12:32<+glx>I only have
12:32<Eddi|zuHause>and the monorail stuff (airport shuttle, space shuttle) were also 4x??
12:33<TrueBrain>k, time to wake up my girlfriend and get some food :) Be back later
12:33<Eddi|zuHause>s/get/get her to make/ :p
12:33<TrueBrain>_Ben_: tnx for the help with Blender :)
12:33<Nickman>wake her up TrueBrain? :p
12:33<svip>I notice that the WE_CLICK area can be appointed to something.
12:33<_Ben_>truebrain: no problem, bye
12:33<svip>But how do I do that?
12:34<@Bjarni><EddizuHause> i have never had lego rail... <-- poor you. The 12 V system was pretty cool. You could put the tracks on normal blocks/plates and if you put two plates next to it, it would be at the same level as the rail, so cars could drive on it
12:34<+glx>TrueBrain: yes better like that
12:34<Rubidium>in my opinion we should keep to the current scaling of vehicles and structures. Changing the scaling makes it impossible to have 8bpp and 32bpp with the same binary.
12:34<TrueBrain>as you can see btw, the tileset is getting there... REALLY close now :)
12:34<svip>I mean, how do I create the widget and refer it to a specific area in the window?
12:34<@Bjarni>so yes, I built a combined road/rail ferry :)
12:34<Nickman>looking good TrueBrain, only need more depth now :D
12:34<TrueBrain>Nickman: it has as much depth as the original set
12:34<Nickman>yeah, but it looks flatter :D
12:34<TrueBrain>that is because not all tiles are finished
12:34<TrueBrain>or you mean it the other way
12:34<_Ben_>Rubidium, the problem is there is no current scale, its a mix. Its very hard to model to that
12:34<TrueBrain>on which I say: who cares :p
12:35<Nickman>I think it needs some harder outlines :)
12:35<@Bjarni>I think the elevation will appear better when the steep slopes are done as well
12:35<TrueBrain>but okay, bbl
12:35<Rubidium>_Ben_: maybe it's hard to model, but having 8 tile ships is even harder to program correctly
12:35<_Ben_>Rubidium, I think a 3 tile ship could be plausable for an oil tanker, and that is as large as they would be
12:35<Eddi|zuHause>svip: maybe look how the transparency gui did it
12:36<_Ben_>at 1:3 wich is the proposal a hover craft would be about 1.2 tiles, wich is the same as it is currently
12:36<Rubidium>_Ben_: graphically maybe, but technically it's virtually impossible
12:36<@Bjarni>_Ben_: yeah, and it would look better if the ships are unable to move through each other, but we need some better code to handle it
12:36<_Ben_>rubidium, technically in what sence? reality, or are you refering to programming?
12:36<Rubidium>as you need to extend the pathfinders heavily to find routes that are *at least* 3 tiles wide
12:37<Eddi|zuHause>_Ben_: he means programming
12:37<Rubidium>the docks need to become 3 tiles longer, ship "depots" need to be much bigger
12:37<_Ben_>Rubidium, a oil tanker wouldn't be 3 tiles wide, I was refering to length
12:38<_Ben_>Rubidium, for realism the dock would need to be 3 tiles long, but there is no reason that it couldn't work on a current dock
12:38<Rubidium>_Ben_: but when it needs to turn, the length of the ship has to still fit in the water
12:39<_Ben_>that is true. A better example for a problem would be the a380 scaled at 1:2. It would struggle around the current airports..
12:39<Rubidium>i.e. when going around a sharp corner there must be enough space so the ship "fits" in the water and doesn't go onto land
12:40<_Ben_>is it not proposed/intended to have differnet water depths? larger ships should stay in deeper water, that way they would avoid coast. (I've probably scanned over a tricky problem rather casually there)
12:40<@Belugas>svip, almost anything that you declare in the widget array can be a button. But look more to something like WWT_TEXTBTN,WWT_PUSHTXTBTN and others alike
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12:40<Rubidium>well, *any* vehicle bigger than 1 tile is getting blitting errors that are most likely virtually impossible to solve nicely. And any (rail)road vehicle larger than 1/2 a tile is going to get the same issues.
12:40<@Belugas>svip: they are grouped in the arrays of type Widget
12:41<svip>Yeah yeah.
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12:41<@Belugas>svip: with WE_CLICK, you react to the number of the widget itself, zero based, using e->
12:41<svip>I understand that.
12:41<@Belugas>pretty easy, once you now how it workd :)
12:41<svip>:< Yeah.
12:42<Rubidium>_Ben_: but with deeper water, you still need the "deep" water part to be wide enough to turn etc.
12:42<_Ben_>rubidium, would deep water exsist next to land?
12:43<svip>:[ Eddi|zuHause, I tried.
12:43<svip>But I still can't figure it out.
12:43<@Belugas>_Ben_: maybe, if we can attract Boekabart in :)
12:43<svip>Some magic is going on.
12:43<Rubidium>no, but ships that need deep water should not be in shallow water
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12:43<_Ben_>rubidium: for planes/ships its actually less of a concern I think, as we can make them only up to a certain size and have all the rest a beleivable size. But for trains, nearly every single train that is width/height to a beleivable scale, is way longer than half a tile.
12:44<Eddi|zuHause>svip: gui stuff is magic all over the place :)
12:44<Greyscale_>hey, I built server version r10948 and it won't let me connect because the server revision is norev000
12:44<Eddi|zuHause>i can't really help you there...
12:44<Greyscale_>what the crap?
12:44<Noldo>you need to fake the revision
12:45<Eddi|zuHause>Greyscale_: norev000 can connect to all versions (although that might give nasty results)
12:45<Greyscale_>the *server* is norev000
12:45<Noldo>ah ok
12:45<@Belugas>_Ben_, one thing for sure, if rescaling for train occurs, pretty good chances that newgrf support (as we know it) would have to be disabled, to some degree
12:45<Rubidium>obviously you have to fake the revision of the client
12:45<@Belugas>trains and vehicls would bnot follow the same rules
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12:46<Noldo>Greyscale_: there is rev.something that holds the revision number
12:46<Greyscale_>its windows.
12:46<Greyscale_>and a linux server
12:46<Greyscale_>I just can't win
12:46<Greyscale_>why the hell is the server reporting norev?
12:47<_Ben_>Belugas: hmmm right. I won't pretend to understand why on that.
12:47<Greyscale_>the client AND the server are both r10948
12:47<Eddi|zuHause>Greyscale_: possibly not used svn?
12:47<Greyscale_>no, got it from the nightlys
12:47<Eddi|zuHause>svn is required to get the correct revision number automatically
12:47<Greyscale_>dunno how to use git/svn
12:48<Greyscale_>how do I do it manually?
12:48<Greyscale_>Surely its just a flag
12:48<Greyscale_>anyone got a git tutorial for this?
12:48<Eddi|zuHause>Greyscale_: ./configure --help
12:48<Eddi|zuHause> --revision=rXXXX overwrite the revision detection.
12:48<Eddi|zuHause> Use with care!
12:49<svip>_zoning.outer = (EvaluationMode)e->we.dropdown.index + 3; << That won't work.
12:49<svip>C doesn't like that conversion.
12:49<svip>Should I make an IntToEvaluationMode function?
12:49<Eddi|zuHause>what is that +3 for?
12:49<svip>That I do not know yet.
12:50<CIA-3>OpenTTD: KUDr * r10973 /trunk/src/waypoint.cpp: -Fix [FS#1154]: update wp->xy when waypoint is moved (Catalan)
12:50<svip>Let's focus on the question at hand.
12:50<Greyscale_>compile is going
12:50<Eddi|zuHause>svip: what is the error it actually gives?
12:51<Rubidium>svip: casts have higher priority than +
12:51<Eddi|zuHause>svip: i assume its a priority error
12:51<Eddi|zuHause>so add ()
12:53<svip>That worked.
12:55<@Belugas>_Ben_, maybe there are stuff that could be simply deactivated on the fly... don't know with precision. But i thnink that while no sets are available, it would be pretty much like blowing in the wind...
12:55<svip>Now it crashes horribly.
12:55<@Belugas>but looking at how george's long vehicles can sometimes present strange behaviours, i would say there are indeed much work to be done
12:56<@Belugas>good for you svip :)
12:56<svip>Error: !String 0x1B01 is invalid. Probably because an old version of the .lng file.
12:56<@Belugas>bad for you :(
12:56<_Ben_>Belugas/Rubidium: Is there a way that rather than trains going into tunnels and popping out the other side as 1 graphic, that artists could make trains out of more than 1 sprite, but work as 1 train?. That way they can disapear in steps as they go into the tunnel.. (again, I'm treading into an area I don't really understand, but its just an idea)
12:56<_Ben_>the other option, which I would do in premier is masking, rather than getting rid of elements of the sprite, just mask it out
12:56<Rubidium>then that vehicle will "bend" in corners
12:56<@Belugas>dunno, really dunno
12:57<_Ben_>rubidium: I don't mean that 1 train is made from 2 units, but just 2 sprites. So usually they would work as 1
13:04<Greyscale_>_Ben_, easier solution:
13:04<Greyscale_>Have the train go through the tunnel tile itself and have the tunnel sprite be made of two
13:04<Greyscale_>front and back
13:04<Greyscale_>and just pass the train sprite between
13:04<Greyscale_></no idea what he's talking about>
13:06<Rubidium>_Ben_: then the train is made up as two units, *or* you want to rewrite the complete backend of OTTD, which isn't going to happen on such scale
13:06<Rubidium>Greyscale_: obviously yes. The problem is that the train part is going to show over the stuff drawn on the tile *after* the tunnel entrance.
13:07<Greyscale_>then hide it after the tunnel entrance
13:07<Greyscale_>just make it invisible :o
13:07<Greyscale_>or something
13:07<Greyscale_>I dunno
13:07<_Ben_>sigh, thats what we are talking about
13:08<Rubidium>Greyscale_: that is what happens and requires the trains to be at most half a tile long...
13:08<_Ben_>rubidium: right, well a rewrite of the backend of OTTD obviously isn't an option!
13:09<_Ben_>rubidium: So 1 unit can only hold 1 sprite for a train? And that/those sprite/s must appear/dissapear at the same point?
13:09<Greyscale_>anyway, I wish there was another way of running it other than in screen
13:09<Rubidium>_Ben_: rewrite meaning completly starting from scratch
13:09<Greyscale_>like, a deamonise function
13:09<Greyscale_>(for dedicated builds)
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13:11<_Ben_>Rubidium: yeah, I didn't mean to sound sarcasitc, of corse thats not a viable option
13:13<Eddi|zuHause>Greyscale_: an example of something being drawn beyond a tunnel entrance: (wrong type of catenary being drawn)
13:14<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: that's already solved, isn't it?
13:14<Eddi|zuHause>(that bug is fixed meanwhile)
13:15<Greyscale_>Eddi|zuHause, what am I looking at in that picutre?
13:15<Eddi|zuHause>Greyscale_: the catenary goes into the tunnel entrances, and sticks out behind them
13:15<Greyscale_>OH I SEE
13:15<Greyscale_>Right. :|
13:16<Greyscale_>Yeah, its a bit minor, but yeah, thats a bit annoying
13:16<Greyscale_>one-way light setting would be nice too
13:16<Greyscale_>so I can mass-set a load one way
13:16<Greyscale_>because I have miles of two lanes of one way track
13:16<Greyscale_>and its a bitch to light it up
13:17<Eddi|zuHause>Greyscale_: there is signal autocompletition, just click&drag on an existing signal with ctrl pressed
13:18<_Ben_>Rubidium: Ok...another idea/question. If additional train sprites are created, would a render of half the train be able to replace the full train as it goes into the tunnel?
13:18<Greyscale_>... Eddi|zuHause I never knew that
13:18<Greyscale_>I'll try it now
13:19<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, it's kind of a hidden feature :)
13:19<Greyscale_>OH WOW
13:20<Greyscale_>eddi wins 5 internets
13:20<@Bjarni>we don't have any hidden features
13:20<@Bjarni>it's open source
13:20<Greyscale_>you just saved me hours of pain and suffering
13:20<@Bjarni>we have poorly and not well known features
13:20<@Belugas>_Ben_, just an idea : draw the train as if it was one tile long, but in fact is 2 half tile
13:20<@Bjarni>*poorly documented
13:20<@Belugas>if you see what i mean...
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13:21<Eddi|zuHause>some people do not even know that you can click and hold the icons to get other railtypes :)
13:21<_Ben_>Belugas: possibly, can you illaberate? sounds similar to what I said, but I dought it's the same
13:22<Eddi|zuHause>Belugas: a suggestion: allow wagons with a "no bend" flag, to attach two half-wagons together
13:22<@Bjarni>Eddi|zuHause: I remember when I got the monorail in the TT days. I thought it was great until I realised that I was unable to build normal rails anymore. Then I thought it was really bad :p
13:22<@Bjarni>took me ages to figure out to hold down the rail button XD
13:23<Eddi|zuHause>i never got to monorail age on my 386 :p
13:23<@Bjarni>I used a 486
13:23<@Bjarni>but it was not mine :(
13:23<Eddi|zuHause>i not even got electric
13:23<@Belugas>_Ben_ : usually, there is a separation between each wagon of a train. Drawing them a bit wider as if the there were only o...
13:23<@Belugas>haaa.. forget it
13:23<@Belugas>not good of an idea...
13:24<@Belugas>Eddi|zuHause, i guess it wold be, dunno. got to dig in sources i'm not familliar with
13:24<Eddi|zuHause>you just have to enforce that the wagon is always positioned relative to the wagon in front of it
13:25<Eddi|zuHause>and you could restrict that to articulated vehicles
13:25<Eddi|zuHause>so you don't get issues with such a wagon being in the front of the train
13:29<Greyscale_>I went on the "AsiaStar" last night
13:29<Greyscale_>returning from france-land
13:29<Greyscale_>And why is there no EMU's?
13:30<Greyscale_>Like the dash diesel or the something-manly but electric
13:30<Greyscale_>DMU = Diesel multiple unit; EMU = electric multiple unit
13:30<Noldo>right, I have a feeling I've asked that before and will ask again
13:32<Eddi|zuHause>Greyscale_: there are, in newgrf sets
13:32<Greyscale_>Noldo, What is confusing you?
13:32<Greyscale_>Its a little shitty train which is entirely electric and has no drive unit
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13:33<Eddi|zuHause>and technically, TGV and EuroStar are EMUs
13:33<Greyscale_>its just like the Dash diesel but elecrtic
13:33<Greyscale_>yes yes, TIM and AsiaStar, but I mean like the Dash
13:33<Greyscale_>no drive units, just powered carrages
13:33<Eddi|zuHause>Greyscale_: try UKRS
13:34<Eddi|zuHause>it's a newgrf set based on british vehicles
13:34<Eddi|zuHause>from what i have seen it's closest to the original vehicles
13:35<Noldo>Greyscale_: The M
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14:19<CIA-3>OpenTTD: rubidium * r10974 /trunk/src/ (roadveh_cmd.cpp station.cpp station.h station_cmd.cpp): -Fix [FS#1144, FS#1155]: road vehicles that could not (properly) use a road stop still tried to go to that road stop.
14:21<Tekky>what are "articulated" road vehicles? What does that word mean?
14:23<Tekky>thanks, but I still have no idea what "articulated" means in the context of road vehicles :)
14:23<Noldo> does anyone agree with me about changes like this
14:23<_Ben_>Tekky: they bend, they have a pivot point in them. So a lorry is often called an artic
14:23<Rubidium>Tekky: 2a
14:23<Tekky>ah, yes.... Thx....
14:25<Tekky>articulated road vehicles are only available in newGRFs, aren't they?
14:28<Rubidium>Noldo: there are quite a few spacing mismatches in that diff
14:28<Rubidium>like /256 and removing whitelines or adding too much spaces
14:30<Noldo>I seem to be a bit tired, I almost pasted a single space as an example
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14:41<Greyscale_>request: The in-road busstops/truck stops should be placable over road tiles
14:41<Greyscale_>without having to clear it first
14:41<Rubidium>Greyscale_: it is...
14:42<Rubidium>you just need to own the road, or the patch that the towns accept it must be enabled
14:42<Rubidium>but you cannot build them on roads of opponents
14:42<Greyscale_>roads should automaticly be council owned
14:43<Rubidium>they shouldn't
14:43<Rubidium>as then they can be removed by opponents
14:45<Eddi|zuHause>but unused roads should be able to change owner...
14:47[~]Bjarni wonders
14:47<@Bjarni>I'm looking though my hd and I found a dir containing two directories, both called "music"
14:47<@Bjarni>not music1 and music2, but music
14:47<@Bjarni>but they are different
14:49<@Bjarni>I'm pretty sure there is something I'm missing in this
14:49<CIA-3>OpenTTD: miham * r10975 /trunk/src/lang/ (croatian.txt finnish.txt):
14:49<CIA-3>OpenTTD: -Update: WebTranslator2 update to 2007-08-24 21:49:23
14:49<CIA-3>OpenTTD: croatian - 1 fixed by knovak (1)
14:49<CIA-3>OpenTTD: finnish - 4 changed by tonihele (4)
14:52<Noldo>does "(/openttd/trunk) (revision 22)" matter on line "--- src/engine_gui.cpp (/openttd/trunk) (revision 22)" in a diff
14:53<Rubidium>with a proper "patch" (the executable) it shouldn't (but it depends on the place in the patch)
14:56<svip>A Mac!
14:56<@Bjarni>don't tell me you didn't knew that
14:56<svip>I didn't until now.
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14:57<svip>You hadn't made it apparent!
14:57<@Bjarni>I disagree
14:57<@Bjarni>I'm the mac porter
14:57<svip>How so?
14:57<svip>I did not realise.
14:57<svip>I haven't checked the credits yet.
14:57<@Bjarni>you should
14:58<svip>I am just wondering...
14:58<svip>Never mind.
14:58<svip>If Christ Sawyer should follow Toys for Bob.
14:58<@Bjarni>I know some people think of him as a god, but still....
14:59<svip>:/ Toys for Bob released their major game's source code ten years after it was released (1992).
14:59<svip>"The project began in 2002 when the original creators Fred Ford and Paul Reiche III released the source code of the 3DO version as open source under the GPL."
15:00<Eddi|zuHause>svip: the problem is a) that CS repeatedly stated that he does not like what people have done to "his" game, and b) that he probably does not have the (sole) copyright to release anything
15:00<svip>But sadly, SC2 isn't as free as OTTD.
15:01<svip>a) < And yet people see him as a god. b) < Makes sense.
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15:02<@Bjarni><svip> a) < And yet people see him as a god. <--- well, you should explain that one since you clearly sees him as a god
15:02<svip>I do?
15:03<@Bjarni>[21:58:31] <svip> If Christ Sawyer should follow Toys for Bob.
15:03<@Bjarni>[21:58:35] <svip> -t
15:03<Rubidium>the t is too far from the s and the spacebar for it to be a typo ;)
15:03<Eddi|zuHause>but that would imply that you see christ as god, which is clearly not the case either :)
15:04<svip>Rubidium, sometimes you start a word, and then you forget how you wanted to end it, and you end up typing something else.
15:04<svip>Because you don't type by character, you type by word.
15:04<Eddi|zuHause>christ is, if anything, the "son of god"
15:04<svip>Accordingly he is also god.
15:04<svip>The son of god is also god.
15:04<svip>That is like giving birth to yourself.
15:04<Eddi|zuHause>only if his dad dies, and he inherits the family company :)
15:04<svip>Makes sense?
15:04<svip>I thought not.
15:06<Eddi|zuHause>you clearly missed the point where it says "you shall not have any gods beside me"
15:06<@Bjarni>maybe he is a polytheist
15:07<svip>Did I say "a god"?
15:07<svip>I think not.
15:07<svip>But I am neither.
15:07<svip>I am not religious at all.
15:07<Eddi|zuHause>you are, you just do not recognise it
15:09<Eddi|zuHause>i totally believe that there is someone who has "root-access" to the "universe-simulator"
15:09<svip>That is not being religious.
15:09<Eddi|zuHause>so, what do you think "being religious" is?
15:09<svip>Is to commit yourself to a bigger project.
15:10<svip>But regardless of evidence against your project.
15:10<svip>You refuse to disconnect.
15:10<Eddi|zuHause>and what do you work for? money? then money is your religion...
15:10<svip>There is not work in it.
15:10<svip>By project I mean a group/community.
15:10<svip>Not a project as building a house.
15:11<svip>Eddi|zuHause, I'd like if you stop putting words in my mouth.
15:11<Eddi|zuHause><svip> But regardless of evidence against your project.
15:11<Eddi|zuHause><svip> You refuse to disconnect.
15:11<svip>My English sucks.
15:11<Eddi|zuHause>that is not part of any definition of "religion"
15:11<svip>I am quite aware.
15:12<Eddi|zuHause>it may be part of some interpretations of certain churches, but that is not what religion is about
15:12<svip>But religion is not about you believing some one has a root-access either.
15:13<Eddi|zuHause>by the words of my maths teacher: religion is a set of rules, that can neither be proven nor disproven
15:13<Eddi|zuHause>(followed by the words: by that definition, maths is the only religion)
15:14<CIA-3>OpenTTD: richk * r10976 /branches/NewGRF_ports/src/ (aircraft.h engine.h newgrf.cpp):
15:14<CIA-3>OpenTTD: [NewGRF_ports] -Change: Additional changes to further support seaplanes. Checks now made in IsAircraftBuildable for seaplane requirement.
15:14<CIA-3>OpenTTD: Seaplaneport has bit 3 of subtype set.
15:14<CIA-3>OpenTTD: Seaplane has bit 3 set in Action0Aircraft Prop 09 (Helicopter support). This overrides helicopters, so at the moment, no seaplane helicopters are permitted.
15:14<svip>Cause most religions has things that *can* be proven or disproven.
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15:17<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, you seem to not have a clear distinction between "religion" and "church"
15:17<svip>I do.
15:18<svip>But it doesn't seem that way, I agree.
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15:27<@Bjarni><Eddi|zuHause> anyway, you seem to not have a clear distinction between "religion" and "church" <-- is that another way of saying "you don't care about any of them?"?
15:28<Eddi|zuHause>hm, that is kinda an overinterpretation on your part :p
15:31<@Bjarni>it was a question, not a statement ;)
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15:51<Tekky>I am currently studying the YAPF source code which makes heavy use of templates and I don't understand the following piece of code:
15:51<Tekky>template <class Types>
15:51<Tekky>class CYapfFollowAnyDepotRailT
15:51<Tekky> typedef typename Types::Tpf Tpf;
15:51<Tekky>I don't understand what Types::Tpf means?
15:52<Tekky>does this mean that Types must be of a variable type which has a Tpf member?
15:53<Rubidium>no, Types is a class, which has Tpf as declared type
15:53<Tekky>i.e. the class that is used in "Types" must have a Tpf tpedef?
15:53<Tekky>tpedef= typedef
15:54<Tekky>that means that only classes with a Tpf typedef in its namespace can be used in the "Types" Template?
15:55<Tekky>otherwise the compiler would produce an error?
15:56<Rubidium>guess so
15:56<Tekky>Ok, thanks!
16:00<Eddi|zuHause><Bjarni> it was a question, not a statement ;) <- it was a suggestive question, which is pretty close to a statement :)
16:00<Rubidium>Tpf seems to be the "container" with all pathfinder related functions (cost determination, node follower, cache and other stuff)
16:01<Rubidium>but yes, YAPF is hard to read and understand
16:02<Tekky>Container? Like an STL container which contains a variable? Or just a class with a list of functions?
16:02<Rubidium>but that's because it uses some pretty nifty features of templates
16:02<Tekky>yes, I noticed :)
16:02<Rubidium>just a class with functions
16:02<Tekky>ok, thanks.
16:02<Rubidium>but it isn't really a class when the compiler is finished with it
16:03<Tekky>I guess most of the work in implementing my new PBS signalling system will be to understand YAPF :)
16:03<Rubidium>it just optimizes all "overhead" of calls and virtual calls out of it (when compiling without -noinline)
16:05<Tekky>Virtual calls? I thought virtual functions can only be called at runtime and therefore the overhead cannot be optimized at compile time?
16:05<Rubidium>I think that PBS only needs to touch yapf_costrail.hpp
16:06<Rubidium>svip: I wish you luck in finding yapf_costrail.cpp
16:06<Tekky>yes, that is the file I am currently looking at :)
16:06<svip>Oh right.
16:06<svip>Header file.
16:06<Rubidium>Tekky: not really virtual as in normal classes
16:07<Tekky>Rubidium: Ah, with "virtual calls" you didn't mean calls of virtual functions?
16:07<Rubidium>but it "looks" virtual as the classes using Tpf assume that a given function exists
16:08<Tekky>yes, it is like being "compile-time virtual" :)
16:08<Tekky>instead of "run-time virtual"
16:09<Tekky>cool, I didn't know that C++ templates had such a feature... and I guess for such reasons OpenTTD had to drop support for MS Visual C++ 6.0 because it didn't support all these template features.
16:12<Eddi|zuHause>that is exactly the reason :)
16:12<Rubidium>and the advantage of "compile-time virtual" is that the compiler can still optimize it ;)
16:15<Tekky>yep... I must say I am impressed with templates..... I should have used them a long time ago instead of programming C-style....
16:16<Rubidium>though they make compiling slow
16:17<Tekky>really? I did not notice much difference in compiling yapf and the other parts of OpenTTD.
16:17<Rubidium>what compiler?
16:17<Rubidium>I guess MSVC
16:18<Tekky>yes, MS VC++ .NET 2003
16:19<Rubidium>that does basically everything after is "woeshish" through the files
16:19<@Bjarni>the faster the computer is, the less you pay attention to how long each file takes to compile
16:19<+glx>compiling is fast with VC but linking is dead slow for release builds
16:20<Tekky>by the way, which compiler is best for compiling OpenTTD? Do all compilers produce a similarly fast executable file? Or does OpenTTD run faster when compiled on a particlular compiler?
16:20<Rubidium>don't think anybody ever tested that
16:20<@Bjarni>did we ever test that?
16:20<Rubidium>and it's hard to test anyway
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16:20<+glx>for debug builds gcc is better
16:20<+glx>they are playable :)
16:21<Rubidium>for windows < 2000 GCC is also better ;)
16:21<Rubidium>and everything non-windows for that matter
16:21<Tekky>you mean > 2000, don't you?
16:21<Rubidium>no < 2000
16:21<+glx>non unicode builds works in win98/ME
16:22<+glx>VC 2005 just removed win95 support
16:23<+glx>that's why I make win9x release with gcc
16:23<Tekky>does Visual C++ 2005 Express also have a good optimizer? Or do I have to get the Pro Version to get a good optimizer?
16:23<Rubidium>and for win64 MSVC is still "certainly" better than GCC
16:24<+glx>I think the optimizer is the same for both
16:24<+glx>pro just supports more things like wince
16:25<Tekky>does the Express Edition of MS VC++ 2005 also have a Profiler?
16:25<+glx><Rubidium> and for win64 MSVC is still "certainly" better than GCC <-- of course mingw64 is far from finished
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16:28<Tekky>I guess I need the Pro Edition for a good profiler...
16:28<+glx>Tekky: I don't think so
16:28<Tekky>Hmmm, maybe I should upgrade to MS VC++ 2005 then.....
16:28<svip>Ah, Tekky is writing PBS.
16:28<Tekky>yes, I am currently studying YAPF in order to implement PBS.
16:28<svip>I wouldn't continue work.
16:28<svip>But I cannot explain why it crashes each time now.
16:28<+glx>VS express misses "integration" (ie you need VWD for asp and VC# for the managed code if you want a nice code "coloration")
16:29[~]glx returns to TV
16:30<Tekky>hehe, I actually use EditPad Pro ( for coding because I can program my own syntax coloring in it :)
16:30<Rubidium>hmm, copy con is so much simpler ;)
16:31<Tekky>svip: Are you trying to get the old PBS path to work?
16:31<svip>Not at all.
16:31<Tekky>svip: Are you trying to get the old PBS patch to work?
16:31<Rubidium>ever tried to make a file called "con" on a Windows system.
16:31<svip>I said no.
16:31<Tekky>sorry, I reposted because I wrote "path" instead of "patch' :)
16:32<svip>I knew what you meant. ;)
16:32<Wolf01> lol
16:34<@Bjarni>did you guys know that there is a Thomas the tank engine theme park in Japan?
16:34<Rubidium>ofcourse there is... it's like that
16:34<@Bjarni>in Japan!!!! not England where the story originates, but Japan o_O
16:34<Tekky>Rubidium: con means "console", I think... so if you write "copy con file.txt" your console input goes to file.txt.
16:35<Rubidium>Tekky: yes, but try to make a file called con on your windows system ;)
16:35<Rubidium>explorer won't let you do it
16:35<svip>When does this happen?
16:35<svip>if (index >= _langtab_num[tab]) {
16:35<Tekky>lol, yes, I just tested that.....
16:36<+glx>it fails without msgbox
16:36<Rubidium>I even wonder whether windows can actually open or delete files called con
16:36<Wolf01>like lptN or comN
16:36<Wolf01>where N is a number
16:37<Rubidium>lpt/i/ :O
16:37<Tekky>svip: We were talking about the filename "con" on Windows :)
16:39<Tekky>svip: I guess your question has to do with language support... I have not looked much at that part of OpenTTD, but if you tell me in what file that line is that you are talking about, I will take a look and see what it could mean.
16:40<Rubidium>for some reason (probably a drop down box), it tries to "read" a StringID that has no string defined to it.
16:40<Wolf01> :O
16:41<svip>Ah, Rubidium.
16:41<svip>That is my problem.
16:41<svip>Because it happens when I try to open a drop down box.
16:41<svip>case ZTW_OUTER: case ZTW_OUTER_DROPDOWN:
16:41<svip> ShowDropDownMenu(w, zone_types, (int)_zoning.outer, ZTW_OUTER_DROPDOWN, 0, 0);
16:42<svip>zone_types contains 3 strings.
16:42<svip>If that is any help.
16:43<@Bjarni> <-- found it. Thomas the tank engine theme park o_O
16:43<Rubidium>zone_types isn't terminated by invalid string
16:45|-|Purno [] has joined #openttd
16:45<@Bjarni> <-- this one appears to be great.... if only I could understand what they said :s
16:47<Eddi|zuHause>this is weird, i had a crash, and afterwards a file that was not touched for a long time is trunkated...
16:48<@Bjarni>you mean your system or app crashed?
16:49<Tekky>better do a chkdsk -f if you are using Windows....
16:49<@Bjarni>then it crashed while writing to it and before it wrote the modification date
16:49<@Bjarni>or something
16:49<Eddi|zuHause>where "long time" means it was one of the last files touched before, but it was not active at the time of crash
16:50<@Bjarni>are you using windows?
16:50<Tekky>I guess that file was still in the write cache and it wasn't flushed before the system crash.
16:50<@Bjarni>that sounds very likely
16:51<Tekky>You had better check your file system. This can be done with chkdsk /f if you are using windows.....
16:51<Eddi|zuHause>pah... windows :p
16:51|-|Wolf01 [] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.]
16:51|-|Purno [] has quit [Quit: Life is a game of pick-up-sticks, played by fucking lunatics.]
16:52<Eddi|zuHause>i am now running reiserfsck --rebuild-tree, but it may have been too much changed before i noticed...
16:52<Eddi|zuHause>and it takes ages...
16:54<svip>Are you going to create like new "one-way" thingies?
16:55<svip>You should make a thing where you drag along a piece of track, and then it becomes in that direction.
16:55<svip>Label with small arrows on the track.
16:55<svip>Beneath the trains.
16:55<Tekky>Yes, I am planning to make an option for a signal to be one-way or two-way....
16:55<svip>And it uses the same method as auto-completion for the signals does.
16:55<svip>So when it meets an intersection, station or a signal it stops.
16:56<svip>For long routes, it would be wise to do the way signing first, and when you put a signal on a one-way track, it automatically selects the appriate signal.
16:56<Eddi|zuHause>i am not sure if that is an intelligent suggestion...
16:57<svip>How so?
16:57<Eddi|zuHause>and it is certainly not related to pbs
16:57<svip>But some people claim to make PBS really work, the signalling system itself needs to be redefined.
16:57<Tekky>Well, I was actually thinking more of having a one-way-sign on the other side of the signal if that track is one-way.... But I haven't made any decisions on that, yet.
16:57<Greyscale_>Why have my lights turned into semphor signals?
16:58<Eddi|zuHause>because you clicked ctrl?
16:58<Greyscale_>how do I undo it?
16:58<svip>Remove it.
16:58<Eddi|zuHause>remove it, build another one
16:59<Tekky>I consider signal auto-completion a secondary issue.... My first priority is to get the signals to work at all :)
17:00<Greyscale_>What is the little yellow thing on the signal now?
17:01<Eddi|zuHause>Greyscale_: ever looked at the wiki about signalling?
17:04|-|Gebruiker [] has joined #openttd
17:04<Tekky>svip: What I am actually trying to do is to make most track bi-directional in the long run.
17:05<Tekky>svip: But my first new PBS release will not support bi-directional double track yet.
17:05<Tekky>svip: Of course, nobody should be forced to use bi-directional track if he preferse one-directional track.
17:05<svip>Hehe. ;o
17:05<Eddi|zuHause>bi-directional single-track and bi-directional stations are more important
17:06<Tekky>Here in Germany, all newly built double track is bi-directional on both sides. I would like OpenTTD to support that.
17:07<Tekky>At least in the long run.
17:07<Eddi|zuHause>especially "intelligent presignalling", as in, a signal turns red if all suitible exits are red, not if all exits are red (even unreachable and dead ends)
17:07<Tekky>But it is very complicated and KUDr persuaded me to first release a simple PBS version which doesn't support bi-directional double track yet.
17:08<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but it only matters if there are works on one track, so it is closed :)
17:08<Eddi|zuHause>so you need a way to discourage using the "reverse" track, without completely forbidding it
17:10<Eddi|zuHause>also it needs serious load balancing
17:10<Tekky>Eddi: What you said about "suitable exits" does not apply to my signalling system because I don't use signals on the exit of intersections. In my signalling system, such exit signals are unnecessary. They don't exist in reality, either, because signals are only placed in places where trains are supposed to wait. And because trains are supposed to wait only in front of intersections, you only place signals in front of intersections,
17:10<Tekky>Eddi: not behind them.
17:11|-|Farden [jk3farden@] has quit [Quit: ( :: NoNameScript 4.02 :: )]
17:11<Tekky>For example, a roro station would look like this in my signalling system:
17:12<Eddi|zuHause>Tekky: yes, but then you need to have a way to mark a dedicated exit without having a signal there
17:13<svip>I am having a problem with the drop menus.
17:13<svip>It gives me values 4 too high.
17:13<Eddi|zuHause>svip: because you did "+3"?
17:13<svip>I removed that.
17:14<Tekky>Eddi: well, you cannot mark dedicated exits in my system, but you could put one-way signs on entry tracks so that the pathfinder will not attempt to use them as exit tracks.
17:15<svip>Doing that, Eddi|zuHause, doesn't change anything...
17:16<Eddi|zuHause>Tekky: so your system assumes that a train fits between the end of the junction and the next signal
17:16<svip>Just me being foolish.
17:16<Eddi|zuHause>i guess that might work, too
17:16<Tekky>Eddi: For example, take this bi-directional roro station (which doesn't work with current OpenTTD signalling): On the two entry tracks, one could put one-way signals. Then the pathfinder will only consider the two exit tracks as possible exits.
17:17<Eddi|zuHause>it is just incompatible with most existing networks
17:17<Eddi|zuHause>which means you will again need a way to keep non-PBS
17:17<Tekky>Eddi: Yes, in my first version, I am assuming that signals are only placed in safe waiting locations for trains.
17:18<Tekky>Therefore, signals should only be placed in places where it is indeed safe for the train to wait.
17:18<Greyscale_>how do I enable quantum loading on a server?
17:18|-|KritiK [] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
17:19<Rubidium>loading every game state at the same time?
17:20<Greyscale_>and there is no wiki entry for town_layout
17:20<Eddi|zuHause>hm... --rebuild-tree did not help...
17:20<@Bjarni><Tekky> Here in Germany, all newly built double track is bi-directional on both sides. I would like OpenTTD to support that. <-- I want that too, but it would be really complicated to code
17:20<@Bjarni>also it's a fairly new way of building tracks
17:22<Greyscale_>anything you can link me to about it?
17:22<Tekky>Eddi: Well, trains also block intersections in the current OpenTTD signalling system, so I see no disadvantage of my system if it is applied to existing networks... except for cases in which pre- and exit-signals are used....
17:22<@Bjarni>it wouldn't help much with only two tracks as it would lock each track in one direction. It would help if you add a 3rd track, that can be used to take over broken trains and stuff
17:23<Tekky>Bjanri: a third bi-directional track with two outer one-way tracks should be easy to implement, because I don't require unsafe signals and "weak" reservations as I do with bi-directional double track.
17:24<Tekky>Bjarni: because there is never any danger of a lockup.
17:24<Eddi|zuHause>Tekky: any sane network uses plenty of pre- and exit signals
17:26<Tekky>Eddi: hmmmm, I am thinking whether my PBS method is compatible with pre- and exit signals.....
17:27<Tekky>the problem is that pre- and exit signals use block signalling while my PBS signals use path signalling. I'm not sure whether they are compatible....
17:29|-|orudge [~orudge@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:30|-|orudge [~orudge@] has joined #openttd
17:31|-|mode/#openttd [+o orudge] by ChanServ
17:33<svip>Apparently I fail at creating cross file static variables.
17:33<Rubidium>that isn't strange
17:34<svip>That I fail?
17:34<svip>Why thank you. :P
17:34<Rubidium>static variables are meant to be only in one file
17:34<svip>I want a variable I change in one file and read in another.
17:34<Rubidium>except when you're talking about static variables in classes
17:35<svip>Should I do like here in variables?
17:35<svip>VARDEF GameOptions _opt;
17:36<svip>Just a link I picked out from variables.h
17:37<Eddi|zuHause>how about just un-static-ing the variable, and put it in a header included by both files?
17:37|-|Vikthor [~Vikthor@] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
17:38<svip>Then I get these messages.
17:38<svip>viewport.o(.bss+0x64): multiple definition of `_zoning'
17:38<svip>main_gui.o(.bss+0x8): first defined here
17:40[~]Bjarni just saved around 460 EUR (3400 DKK)
17:40<svip>3400 DKK on what?
17:41<@Bjarni>I fixed my DVD/HDD recorder myself
17:41<@Bjarni>the HD had a zillion bad blocks, so I replaced the HD myself and reformatted it
17:41<svip>Bjarni, can you perhaps help me with my cross-file variable?
17:41<@Bjarni>with a spare HD that I didn't even use anyway
17:41<svip>And you installed Linux on it I assume.
17:42<@Bjarni>no, it's one of those HDD recorders (replacement for video) that you connect to the TV
17:42<svip>I know.
17:42<svip>There is MythTV you know for Linux.
17:42<svip>It has an awesome strip-commercial algorithm.
17:43<svip>That can remove commercials from recordings.
17:44<@Bjarni>I don't consider that an issue with TV2 ;)
17:44<svip>But I am still in deep water.
17:44<svip>Cause my code won't compile!
17:44<@Bjarni>lucky you
17:45<@Bjarni>my source will not compile either :p
17:45<svip>Not lucky me.
17:45<svip>:[ I want to make a cross-file variable.
17:45<@Bjarni>I know what's wrong with mine... I just haven't had time to solve it yet
17:45|-|Greyscale [] has joined #openttd
17:45<@Bjarni>so you want to make a global var
17:46<@Bjarni>shouldn't be tricky, but are you sure it's needed?
17:46<svip>:[ Yes.
17:46<@Bjarni>go read src/variables.h
17:47<svip>I did.
17:47<svip>And then I tried VARDEF on it.
17:47<svip>Didn't work either.
17:47<svip>Should I add my variable to variables.h instead of zoning.h?
17:47<@Bjarni>you are making this more complicated than it has to be :P
17:47<svip>You are not helping me by stating that.
17:47<@Bjarni>VARDEF is defined as something else in some header file
17:48<@Bjarni>make sure you include that file
17:48<svip>No no.
17:48<svip>It's not that it doesn't know VARDEF.
17:48<@Bjarni>then what is the problem?
17:48<svip>It's that I get these messages when linking.
17:48<svip>zoning_cmd.o(.text+0x225): In function `DrawTileZoning(TileInfo const*)':
17:48<svip>: undefined reference to `_zoning'
17:49|-|kurtisnelson [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:49|-|kurtisnelson [] has joined #openttd
17:49<@Bjarni>I think you have to make the var in a cpp file as well... same line, but without VARDEF
17:50<@Bjarni>otherwise it ends up as a pointer to some .o file containing this, but no .o files contains this var and the linker fails
17:50<svip>But wouldn't that mean declaring it twice?
17:51<@Bjarni>because if you use VARDEF, it's actually using external, so it's telling that this variable exists in some file and you can access it
17:51<Maedhros>what is VARDEF, and how is it different to extern?
17:51<svip>That worked.
17:52<@Bjarni>Maedhros: I don't know why ludde used a define to call external VARDEF :s
17:52|-|Greyscale_ [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:52<@Bjarni>never asked him
17:52|-|RichK67 [~RichK67@] has joined #openttd
17:52<RichK67>hi all
17:53<CIA-3>OpenTTD: richk * r10977 /branches/NewGRF_ports/ (12 files in 4 dirs): (log message trimmed)
17:53<CIA-3>OpenTTD: [NewGRF_ports] -Feature: Added multi-tile depot support.
17:53<CIA-3>OpenTTD: In the newgrf depot list, each depot is defined as x, y, FSMposition. The
17:53<CIA-3>OpenTTD: FSMposition is the location in the state machine that has the moving data that
17:53<CIA-3>OpenTTD: defines where the hangar is. Thus, you can enter a depot at several locations,
17:53<CIA-3>OpenTTD: but you always exit at the same location (unless you define it as a separate
17:53<CIA-3>OpenTTD: depot).
17:54<svip>He enters and already is there report about his doings.
17:54<svip>Great man.
17:54|-|Progman [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:54<RichK67>i always like to watch my commit messages roll by :)
17:55<RichK67>also, its handy if people have questions
17:56<RichK67>you can get some way out whacky effects with that feature... i had a/c entering the lower hangar of the international, but exiting from the upper hangar :) but at least it proved the principle
17:57<svip>Magic plane.
17:57<RichK67>teleporters R us
17:58<svip>It crashes.
17:58<svip>openttd: /home/svip/openttd-dev/trunk/src/spritecache.cpp:471: const void* GetRawSprite(SpriteID, bool): Assertion `sprite < _spritecache_items' failed.
17:58<RichK67>what sort of airport
17:59<RichK67>ah... trunk... its not my branch
18:01<RichK67>sudden paranoia attack there ;)
18:01<RichK67>i saw some screenies of the overlays... looks like you got the colours working nicely
18:01<Sacro>annyone any idea how to use a PC when windows will see neither the keyboard or the mouse>
18:01<Eddi|zuHause>he is struggeling on GUI work afaik :p
18:02<ln->Sacro: speech recognition
18:02<Sacro>RichK67: would that work for trains?
18:02<RichK67>nope... state machines only atm
18:03<+glx>Sacro: try pressing the power button for more than 5s
18:03<Sacro>ln-: i don't think it'd understand me
18:03<Sacro>glx: i did, it got me back to the start
18:03<+glx>usb or ps2?
18:04<RichK67>although i see no reason why you couldnt just test for adjacent depots, and have the most northwest one as the keydepot
18:07|-|Eddi|zuHause2 [] has joined #openttd
18:07|-|Maedhros [] has quit [Quit: good night]
18:09<Sacro>this motherboard has no ps2 ports
18:09|-|Gebruiker [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
18:09<Sacro>and refuses to work with my microsoft keyboard and trust mouse
18:09<svip>Microsoft keyboard?
18:09<svip>Why not get yourself an old IBM keyboard.
18:09<svip>From the good days.
18:09<svip>The eighties.
18:09<Sacro>usb? in the 80s?
18:09<svip>:/ Screw that.
18:09|-|Eddi|zuHause [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:09<svip>Get a motherboard from then as well.
18:10<svip>My motherboard supports PS/2.
18:15<svip>glx: ;-;
18:16<svip>What does this mean:
18:16<svip>openttd: /home/svip/openttd-dev/trunk/src/spritecache.cpp:471: const void* GetRawSprite(SpriteID, bool): Assertion `sprite < _spritecache_items' failed.
18:17<RichK67>you are trying to reference a sprite that is outside of the range of sprites cached
18:17<+glx>ie non loaded sprite or non existing sprite
18:17<RichK67>could be either
18:17<+glx>start gdb to see the "invalid" value
18:17<svip>:/ That does not make sense.
18:18<ln->first recompile with debug symbols enabled
18:18<+glx>right ./configure --enable-debug=3
18:18<+glx>so it doesn't inline either
18:18<RichK67>if you've added your own .grf, but not adjusted the "end of sprites" marker appropriately, then its easy to get this
18:19<svip>I did add my own grf.
18:19<RichK67>hence me mentionning
18:19<+glx>I can't remember myself adjusting an "end of sprite" marker when adding flags.grf
18:20<RichK67>yeah, its sort of automatic if you add them right
18:20<RichK67>gfxinit load_index IIRC
18:21<+glx>I guess it's a bug in his code, maybe an unitialised var used as SpriteID
18:21<+glx>svip: show the diff :)
18:22<svip>Have I completely forgot how gdb works?
18:22<svip>I am trying to run the program.
18:23<+glx>well with the diff I can try gdb :)
18:23<RichK67>otherwise, its trying to reference beyond the end of the sprites... depends where you added your sprites... if to the end, its most likely your code at fault
18:23<svip>But I keep getting "no such file or directory".
18:24<svip>Starting program: /home/svip/openttd-dev/trunk/bin/openttd
18:24<svip>Cannot exec : No such file or directory.
18:25<Sacro>right, modelling time
18:25<Sacro>!seen TrueBrain
18:25<_42_>Sacro, please look a bit closer at the memberlist of this channel.
18:25<Sacro>stupid bot
18:25<Sacro>@seen TrueBrain
18:25<@DorpsGek>Sacro: TrueBrain was last seen in #openttd 5 hours, 50 minutes, and 4 seconds ago: <TrueBrain> but okay, bbl
18:26<+glx>Sacro: don't worry if he kicks you when he returns :)
18:26<Sacro>glx: why would he kick me?
18:26<Sacro>tis Bjarni who does that
18:26<+glx>he doesn't like to be highlighted
18:26<Sacro>but Bjarni likes to recieve the sex of paying men
18:28|-|Digitalfox [] has quit [Quit: Bye]
18:32<@Bjarni>Sacro is talking garbage again
18:32<@Bjarni>I guess I shouldn't be surprised
18:32<svip>Still doesn't change that gdb is being a bitch with me.
18:32<svip>Curse you, gdb.
18:32<svip>Just run the damn program already!
18:33<Sacro>right, i have an ldraw -> blender converter
18:33<Sacro>time to render some LEGO
18:34|-|Darkebie [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:34<+glx>svip: gdb ./openttd ?
18:34<svip>(gdb) run
18:34<svip>Starting program: /home/svip/openttd-dev/trunk/bin/openttd
18:34<svip>Cannot exec : No such file or directory.
18:34<svip>I am baffled.
18:42|-|RichK67 [~RichK67@] has quit [Quit: RichK67]
18:50<svip>:/ I'm going to bed.
19:03<Greyscale>How do I replace an old bus?
19:04<+glx>sell the old, buy the new
19:04<+glx>or use autoreplace
19:04<Tekky>there are two ways I know of.... either use autoreplace or send the vehicle to a depot and do it manually.
19:05<Tekky>autoreplace only works if you have enough money. You can configure it in the patches window.
19:05<+glx>vehicle list, hold "manage list", select "replace"
19:06<+glx>Tekky: that's autorenew
19:06<Tekky>oh... ah, yes....
19:06<+glx>but maybe that's what Greyscale wants :)
19:07<Greyscale>learn something every day
19:07<Greyscale>I want to upgrade my rickety old crap
19:07<Tekky>Greyscale, do you want to replace an old vehicle with an identical new one? Or do you want to replace an older model of a bus with a newer model?
19:08<Tekky>ah, you want to upgrade.... for that you should use autoreplace, as glx said.
19:08<Greyscale>upgrade the crappy old busses
19:08<Greyscale>does it stagger-upgrade them?
19:10<Greyscale>Why oh why is my friend's cele 1.6 heavilly loaded on a 2048x2048 map and my PPC 300Mhz is dandy on a 1024x2048 map?
19:11<+glx>ships and yapf maybe
19:11<Greyscale>neither has ships yet
19:11<Greyscale>and the PPC has a more complex network
19:13<@Bjarni>I once tested an 800 MHz G4 against a 1,2 GHz pentium. The G4 was faster at playing DivX
19:13<@Bjarni>1 Hz PPC != 1 Hz x86
19:13<+glx>CISC != RISC
19:14<@Bjarni>1,6 vs 300.... we should have known which one would be the fastest in that test
19:15<Greyscale>Damn. Dash diesel has no electric replacement
19:15<Greyscale>does it get one in the future?
19:15<Greyscale>(I'm at 2021)
19:15<+glx>electric rail?
19:16[~]Bjarni detects a user input error
19:16<@Bjarni>at least I think so
19:16<Greyscale>There are no EMU's in this game. I complained earlier.
19:16<@Bjarni>you should be able to replace diesel to electric without any problems
19:16<+glx>use newgrfs
19:16<Greyscale>But there is no Dash diesel replacement
19:16<Greyscale>glx, which?
19:17<@Bjarni>ahh, like that
19:17<Greyscale>glx, what?
19:17<Greyscale>glx, explain?
19:17<Greyscale>I know nothing it seems D:
19:17|-|Tobin_ [] has joined #openttd
19:18<+glx> <-- outdated as it says nothing about the newgrf window
19:19<+glx>so to make it simple:
19:19<+glx>download the grf and put it in data
19:19<+glx>open the newgrf window
19:19<+glx>add the grf
19:19<Greyscale>with grf's, does it run WITH the current ones or are they replaced?
19:20<+glx>they are replaced
19:20<Greyscale>and if it is on the server, do clients download them?
19:20<Greyscale>(if not, why not?)
19:20<Sionide>that would be a sweet ass patch
19:20<Greyscale>damn. It'd be cool if you could collect all kinds of trains
19:20<Greyscale>yes, it would
19:20<+glx>and clients need the same grfs
19:20<Greyscale>Patch is required :P
19:21<Greyscale>If I knew my shit I'd go for it
19:21<+glx>too much work :)
19:21<+glx>maybe one day
19:21<Greyscale>well it downloads the map
19:21<Nickman>goodnight all
19:21<Eddi|zuHause2>the clients only need to have the file, it gets activated automatically
19:21<Greyscale>it may as well download the grfs and apply them while its there
19:21<+glx>will never happen
19:21<Eddi|zuHause2>copyright issues
19:21<Greyscale>Eddi|zuHause2, why?
19:22<Greyscale>Its not actually containing anything copyright itself
19:22<Greyscale>it is a mode of copying a file from A to B
19:22<Eddi|zuHause2>each grf file is copyright protected
19:22<Greyscale>Then have "Do you agree to this licence" and wack a licence in with the grf
19:23|-|XeryusTC [] has quit [Quit: Solong, and thanks for all the fish.]
19:23|-|Nickman [] has quit [Quit: ( :: NoNameScript 4.02 :: )]
19:23<Greyscale>somefile.grf and somefile.licence
19:23<+glx>each grf has it's own licence
19:23<Greyscale>Makes me wish I knew C now
19:23<Eddi|zuHause2>it's also other issues, like having outdated versions circling around
19:23<Greyscale>if the server has it, it doesn't matter
19:23<Greyscale>just download whatever the server has
19:23<+glx>and users complaining about grf bugs
19:24<Greyscale>less fiddling, more it-just-works
19:24|-|Tekky [] has quit []
19:24<Eddi|zuHause2>it may have bugs that were long fixed
19:24<Greyscale>server maintainers responcibility
19:25<Eddi|zuHause2>the server owner might not even notice that there is a new version out
19:25<@Bjarni>I have a lot of grf files in my shared data dir. Should solve client/server issues if you just dump all of them in there
19:25<Greyscale>eddi, and?
19:25<Eddi|zuHause2>but he will, if people report that they cannot join with their new version, and cannot get the old version anywher
19:25<Greyscale>still the server maintainers fault.
19:25|-|Tekky [] has joined #openttd
19:26<Greyscale>Eddi|zuHause2, doesn't matter, the clients pull it from the server
19:26<Eddi|zuHause2>they don't, that is exactly the point
19:26<+glx>Greyscale: anyway it will never happen
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19:26<Greyscale>so the server has it and hands it out to all the users who try to connect without it
19:26<Eddi|zuHause2>the grf author has full control that he is the only person the people get the grf from
19:26<Greyscale>glx, you saying that makes me want to learn C++
19:27<Greyscale>then that responcibility to get the grf's owner's permission to redistribute is that of the server maintainers.
19:27<+glx>you can code it if you want but it will never be in openttd
19:27<Greyscale>Its damn well making me want to.
19:27<@Bjarni>it would make little sense to code if the server will not contain the code
19:28<@Bjarni>both ends should be able to handle a grf transfer for a patch to be useful
19:28<Eddi|zuHause2>the issue has been discussed so often...
19:28<Eddi|zuHause2>and every time it was decided that it is not going to happen
19:29<@Bjarni>with the grf window and the ability to use subdirs and stuff in data and a shared data dir, I don't see the problem
19:29<@Bjarni>you can just put every single grf file in there if you like
19:30<Eddi|zuHause2>the only thing that _might_ have a chance of happening, is that you get a link to grfcrawler from within openttd, but that adds a lot of unnecessary dependencies
19:30<+glx>and not all grfs are in grfcrawler
19:31<Eddi|zuHause2>that is a whole other issue :)
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21:25<Greyscale>What do the little red/yellow/green balls in the train list mean?
21:26<Greyscale>and what happens if I run a train beyond its lifetime?
21:30<ThePizzaKing>Are they the profit indicators?
21:30<ThePizzaKing>Green is good
21:30<ThePizzaKing>Red is bad
21:31<ThePizzaKing>Orange is average
21:31<ThePizzaKing>Grey is 'the train is too young to tell'
21:32<ThePizzaKing>And running a train beyond its lifetime causes its reliability to decrease (which means nothing if you have breakdowns disabled)
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21:49<Greyscale>ThePizzaKing, means nothing then :P
21:55<ThePizzaKing>Though, I think if you want really high ratings on your stations, you need to have a newish carriage/vehicle servicing it regularly
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23:14<Greyscale>All the trains are missing from the build panel
23:15<Greyscale>Aah, can't buy diesels
23:21<Greyscale>Feature request: Underground stops.
23:22<Greyscale>Because trying to wedge railway stations into packed in already-grown city's without leveling entire blocks is a sonofabitch
23:22<Greyscale>like, a 7 square station underground with a 1 square "head" on the surface would be kickass.
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23:29<Sacro>mmm, i can render :D
23:30[~]Sacro ponders where everyone is
23:39<_Ben_>hmm, 32 lego bits done. Time for bed now.
23:45<Sacro>_Ben_: what you done?
23:45<Sacro>just layed em out and rendered them?
23:45<_Ben_>modelled them...
23:45<Sacro>hate to say this
23:45<Sacro>but you can import them into blender
23:46<_Ben_>ha, thats ok, I actually made them slightly higher detail so I can use them for somethign else I'm doing
23:46<Sacro>i assume you can render at a very high level
23:46<Sacro>but i don't know how to use blender
23:46<_Ben_>I've modelled the underneath sections as well, I'm not shore what the detail is like on the ones that you say can be inported
23:47<Sacro>i didn't look
23:47<_Ben_>oh ewll, it was a good way to waste the evening, if there of use to anyone on the forum there there, if not, oh well!
23:47<_Ben_>anyway, night
23:47<Sacro>:) night
---Logclosed Sat Aug 25 00:00:48 2007