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#openttd IRC Logs for 2007-09-02

---Logopened Sun Sep 02 00:00:15 2007
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00:49<simon444>OpenTTD is going bankrupt?
00:49<simon444>why not ask for donated server parts
00:50<simon444>with the money
00:56<simon444>I am donating $130AUD
00:56<simon444>just wondering if there are any paypal fees
00:57<simon444>i.e. are you recognized by paypal for being a charity
00:57<simon444>I mean cross-currency fees
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01:18<mcbane>they are not goig bankrupt
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01:50<simon444>mMmMm sEaWeeD
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01:52<simon888><simon444> mMmMm sEaWeeD
01:52<simon888><simon444> it is the stuff dolphin's get high on
01:52<simon888><simon444> (it says that on the pack of seaweed I bought yesterday)
01:52<simon888><simon444> (talk about weird)
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01:55<simon222>err you got that?
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04:27<@peter1138>do they betray your secrets?
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04:37<mcbane>btw what hapened to celestar didnt see him for longer time.
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04:53<Rubidium>mcbane: ask him when he returns
05:02<mcbane>ok =)
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05:12<Chris82>I've got a little problem with the new GetDisplayRunningCost() function
05:12<Chris82>I modified the original line to look like this Money GetDisplayRunningCost() const { return (this->GetRunningCost() * VehRunCostFactor() >> 8); }
05:13<Chris82>this will multiply the running costs with a certain factor e.g. 10
05:13<Chris82>it works fine for ships, aircraft and road vehicles but for trains it calculates the running cost * 10 * 10 why is that??
05:14<Rubidium>because you do the * VehRunCostFactor in the train Train::GetRunningCost too?
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05:14<Chris82>nope that's not the problem unfortunately
05:15<Chris82>I have to do it there so the actual running costs are properly calculated as well not only the display
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05:15<Chris82>but even when I remove it there the display is still * 10 * 10
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05:15<Chris82>only the calculated costs are wrong then as expected
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05:16<Rubidium>without more clues I can't help you
05:17<Rubidium>and I'm not going to be happy when I get a 500 kiB diff file either
05:17<Chris82>well I am a bit lost right now... I thought the way Vehicle Running Costs are displayed and calculated have been unified
05:18<Chris82>so I thought I can simply the daypatch to just do VehRunCostFactor() * GetRunngingCost() and VehRunCostFactor() * GetDisplayRunCostFactor()
05:18<Chris82>but in fact that's not possible because the costs are still calculated seperately in numerous files
05:19<Noldo>could you put the * factor in to the GetRunningCost() funxtion ?
05:20<Chris82>no it's not possible
05:20<Chris82>I don't quite get how GetRunningCost works
05:20<Chris82>for example virtual Money GetRunningCost() const { return 0; } does this return the actual running costs of a vehicle??
05:21<Noldo>it's just a base class function that is overloaded in the derived classes
05:21<Noldo>it's propably never called
05:22<Chris82>I also don't understand why GetDisplayRunningCost() is only used in the specific vehicle files and not in the build vehicle gui and engine gui
05:23<Chris82>that's pretty confusing :/
05:23<Chris82>so basically there are two different ways vehicle running costs are handled now
05:23<Noldo>it was specificly inserted to be used by the vehicle window unification
05:23<Rubidium>who said everything gets unified in the same single step?
05:24<Chris82>yeah but I thought it was supposed to simplify things, instead it made things more complicated
05:24<Chris82>well ok if it gets changed I have to wait I guess
05:24<Noldo>no you can just use the new one
05:25<Rubidium>problem is that engines are completely different entities, i.e. the build vehicle GUI and engine GUI use different variables and are only for a single part of an engine and not the complete thing.
05:28<Chris82>ok I understand
05:28<Chris82>I think I take a few steps back and try to do it step by step... i.e. first make the display right and then secondly make the calculation output correct values
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06:17<CIA-3>OpenTTD: rubidium * r11036 /branches/noai/ (155 files in 12 dirs): [NoAI] -Sync: with trunk r10774:11035.
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06:59<CIA-3>OpenTTD: rubidium * r11037 /branches/NewGRF_ports/src/ (140 files in 8 dirs): [NewGRF_ports] -Sync: with trunk r10844:11035.
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07:24<@TrueBrain>so I say: burp
07:24<@TrueBrain>then he was all like: wow!
07:24<@TrueBrain>and I say: burp
07:24<@TrueBrain>and he: wow!!!
07:28<Noldo>the dudes were like "dude!"
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07:57<redmonkey>i think i've found a bug
07:57<svip>Checked the flyspray?
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07:58<redmonkey>the maximum rating in the company performance is 1000, right?
07:59<redmonkey>but the AI suddenly have a company performance rating of ~8600
07:59<svip>That sounds crazy.
08:01<redmonkey>wait a second
08:02<redmonkey>i'm gonna upload a screenshot
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08:05<svip>Could look like a wrapped unsigned int.
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08:05<redmonkey>don't tell me, i'm not a programmer :)
08:06<svip>It could be a bug in the graph window.
08:06<svip>Try removing your own graph, redmonkey.
08:06<svip>:( Can't remember if that is possible.
08:07<SmatZ>redmonkey: can you clink on details for come other company than red?
08:08<redmonkey>another shot, that shows that everybody is a tycoon:
08:09<svip>But yet you haven't show us the details for the other companies.
08:09<svip>See the "Detailed performance rating" window?
08:09<svip>We are not interested in red.
08:10<redmonkey>ok wait a second
08:10<Noldo>which uint has valuerange of 0 - ~8640 ?
08:10<svip>SmatZ: This guy is also working with some extreme cases.
08:11<SmatZ>svip: I am going to like him ^_^
08:12<+glx>nice bug it seems
08:13<+glx>total should be 50 not 8179
08:13<svip>redmonkey: Thanks for bothering to play to 2157 to find this bug. :)
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08:14<redmonkey>you're welcome :)
08:16<Noldo>it rates the money wrong?
08:19<redmonkey>i'll be right back
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08:19<SmatZ>what is 'Show company liveries' patch good for?
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08:21<Eddi|zuHause3>SmatZ: it shows/hides the custom liveries of other companies
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08:22<SmatZ>Eddi|zuHause3: what are 'custom liveries'?
08:22<Eddi|zuHause3>SmatZ: like painting busses blue/white and lorries green/white and trains yellow/red
08:23<SmatZ>Eddi|zuHause3: ah, thank you
08:24<Eddi|zuHause3>hiding them will show all vehicles in the base company colour
08:25<@Bjarni>actually it could be interesting to have red/white busses and another company has white/red busses (if the grf supports this feature). Might make a mess if they are driving in the same town :)
08:25<Eddi|zuHause3><Noldo> it rates the money wrong? <- it could be the loan
08:27<Eddi|zuHause3>or something completely unrelated, as they all have similar rating
08:27<@Bjarni>SmatZ: for the record: the default vehicles don't support 2nd colours, so to use this feature, you need to use newgrf. You can always have white trains and yellow busses if you like though
08:28<Eddi|zuHause3>the DBSetXL does not support company colours at all
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08:34<SmatZ>Bjarni: so this is the "extended colour scheme"? when I select "light blue" for Trains - Electric engines, it remains yellow :-x
08:34|-|Wolf01|AWAY changed nick to Wolf01
08:35<@Bjarni>you can select one colour for steam, one for electric and so on
08:37<SmatZ>Bjarni: I have some problems comparing with some value ... eg. when it prints if printf("%d %d\n", == 2,;
08:37<SmatZ>it prints "0 2"
08:37<SmatZ>so even when it is ==2, comparison is false
08:38<@Bjarni>there is something wrong with the colours :(
08:40<@Bjarni>oh wait
08:40<@Bjarni>now it's working
08:40<@Bjarni>error code 40 :P
08:40<SmatZ>what is "error code 40"?
08:40<@Bjarni>you have to enable each line (the square to the left of the line) for it to overwrite the globally set colour
08:40<@Bjarni><SmatZ> what is "error code 40"? <--- user error
08:47<SmatZ>hmm I will switch to gcc 4.1.2 ...
08:48<@Bjarni>do you dare?
08:49<SmatZ>hmm it didn't help me at all :(
08:50|-|rm^away changed nick to redmonkey
08:52<SmatZ>ah yes
08:52<SmatZ>it works
08:52<SmatZ>gcc 4.2.0 and 4.1.2 work in a different way...
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09:05<redmonkey>uhmmm, shall i report that performance rating bug i found, or is it enough that i told you about it?
09:05<SmatZ>redmonkey: it is better to open a bug report
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09:10<SmatZ> please, can anyone help me with that?
09:10<redmonkey>SmatZ: in what category would you put it in?
09:10<SmatZ>xx 1 3 2 0 2 2
09:10<SmatZ>^^^ this is my output...
09:10<SmatZ>redmonkey: into GUI
09:11<SmatZ>when _patches.loading_indicators == 2
09:12<SmatZ>seems the compiler expects it to be 0 or 1... but why?
09:14<Noldo>it still thinks it's a bool?
09:14<SmatZ>maybe ...
09:14<SmatZ>but how can I force it to think it is NOT a bool?
09:15<SmatZ>SDT_VAR(Patches, loading_indicators, SLE_UINT8, S,MS, 2, 0, 2, 0, STR_CONFIG_PATCHES_LOADING_INDICATORS, RedrawScreen),
09:15<SmatZ>^^^ it is defined as UINT8 ....
09:17<SmatZ>please :-(
09:17<SmatZ>I am absolutelly lost :-x
09:18<Noldo>that printf is just to test the value of _patched.loading_indicators ?
09:22<Noldo>what happens with switch (_patches.loading_indicators)
09:22<@peter1138> bool loading_indicators; // Show loading indicators
09:22<@peter1138>that might have something to do with it
09:22<SmatZ>peter1138: thanks!
09:25<SmatZ>peter1138: yes, it was the problem, thanks again :-x a bad day today maybe :)
09:25<SmatZ>the same as other days..
09:29<Noldo> I'll bring this one up again because I would like to get to the making Money a class that depends on it
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09:44<SmatZ>redmonkey: does this problem occur in 0.5.3-RC3 ? in current nightly? is it possible to a savegame?
09:44<SmatZ>*to attach a...
09:45<redmonkey>i only have the 0.5.2 stable version here
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09:45<redmonkey>oh yes, i forgot to attach the savegame
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09:58<redmonkey>ok, i attached the savegame
09:58<redmonkey>gotto go now
09:58<redmonkey>see ya!
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10:27<@Bjarni>ln-: did you test it?
10:28<ln->not yet, i'm "reading" for an exam...
10:30<ln->i.e. avoiding it
10:32<@Bjarni>that's how some of the bash quotes starts
10:32<@Bjarni>studying for an exam way too late
10:33<@Bjarni>like "is base another word for acid" on the night before the chemistry exam x)
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10:48<@peter1138>fortunately my chemistry education never got up to using 'base' ...
10:49[~]Prof_Frink steals peter1138's complete supply of sodium hydroxide
10:49<Prof_Frink>All your base are belong to me!
10:50<Noldo>ehe ehe eh eh
10:54<@Bjarni>you know, chemistry can be great fun
10:55<+glx>yeah put Mg in H2O :)
10:55<ln->as long as it involves mixing liquids of different colours
10:55<@Bjarni>like mixing sulphur acid with sugar
10:55<Prof_Frink>glx: Doesn't do much
10:55<@Bjarni>but do open the window first :)
10:55<Prof_Frink>Try a group I metal instead
10:56<Prof_Frink>Or mix Fe2O3 with Al, and ignite with Mg
10:56<@Bjarni>most channels talk about acid... we talk about metals and bases :D
10:57<Eddi|zuHause3>that gets a little hot :p
10:57<Prof_Frink>Or make a fuel-air explosion-powered spudgun
10:57<Prof_Frink>Or mix the two
10:58<Eddi|zuHause3>letting phosphor dry up is also fun :)
10:58<Prof_Frink>Make a thermite shell and fire that at something you don't like
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11:36<svip>Bjarni: I thought we talked about trains.
11:37<redmonkey>uhmm, is someone able to remove attachments from here?
11:39<redmonkey>because the owner of the savegame that i posted doesnt want it to be published :(
11:39<redmonkey>i told him that it isnt possible.. but i will ask
11:40<+glx>it's possible but a savegame is helpful for this kind of bug
11:41<svip>:/ Why doesn't the owner want it to be posted, redmonkey ?
11:41<redmonkey>aren't the screenshot enough? if yes, just remove it. if no, don't remove it..
11:42<redmonkey>svip: good question. maybe he doesn't wat others to see his build-style :)
11:42<+glx>screenshots show the bug but savegame may explain it
11:42<svip>That's not why we are downloading, redmonkey.
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11:43<redmonkey>ok no problem. if it's good for the developement of the game, leave it where it is ;)
11:47<elmex>Rubidium: hmm
11:48<elmex>what are the 'Transfer Credits' for btw.? they are always 0 here
11:48<elmex>(with the latest svn)
11:48<elmex>even when picking up transfered stuff
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11:52<redmonkey>i'm also the owner of this savegame, because we played it as a network game together (teammode). but i've built 80% of everything. so i technically i'm the owner
11:53<redmonkey>wait no, that was another game
11:53<redmonkey>it's NOT a network game
11:53<redmonkey>oh nevermind :)
11:54<redmonkey>btw: where can i find the "what's new" section for every version?
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12:00<Eddi|zuHause3>in changelog.txt?
12:03<redmonkey>ahh yes. thank you!
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12:19<Tekky>Hi, I have a short question: The savegames of TTDPatch and OpenTTD are completely incompatible, aren't they?
12:19<@TrueBrain>OpenTTD -> TTDP, yes
12:19<@TrueBrain>TTDP -> OpenTTD, works partly
12:20<@TrueBrain>(so loading a TTDP savegame in OpenTTD, works for the basic part)
12:21<Tekky>Thanks. I am currently designing a new PBS system for OpenTTD and needed to know whether people will be attempting to load their TTDPatch PBS track layouts into OpenTTD.
12:22<@TrueBrain>most extended things in TTDp (which are not in TTD) aren't loaded when loading such a savegame
12:22<Tekky>Since my PBS system is very different, I wanted to know whether I need a TTDPatch compatibility mode.
12:22<@TrueBrain>some parts do, most don't
12:22<@TrueBrain>don't worry about it too much, okay? :)
12:22<Tekky>Ok :)
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12:29<elmex>Tekky: PBS!!!!
12:30<elmex>thats gonna be exciting
12:32<@Bjarni>wait until you actually see it
12:32<@Bjarni>it's easier said than done :(
12:33<@Bjarni>however I still find it good news that somebody actually works on it :)
12:33<elmex>yea, of course, but finally at least someone says he is doing it :)
12:35<Eddi|zuHause3><Tekky> Since my PBS system is very different, I wanted to know whether I need a TTDPatch compatibility mode. <- i'd vote no, just have a TTD compatibility mode, and downgrade TTDP PBS on load to TTD signals
12:36<DaleStan>But what do you do when there are already multiple trains in a single block?
12:36<@Bjarni>crash them :P
12:37<Eddi|zuHause3>that's the user's fault :)
12:37<@Bjarni>make working PBS first and then we can consider loading afterwards
12:37<@Bjarni>like if we care
12:37<DaleStan>The user's fault for using TTDPatch's PBS, or the user's fault for trying to load a TTDPatch save in Open?
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12:37<Eddi|zuHause3>it's not like he couldn't just reload and pause immediately
12:38<Eddi|zuHause3>in 98% of all cases, the trains exit normally anyway
12:38<@TrueBrain>For the general information: these are the opinions of individual users and are in no way related to the general line OpenTTD likes to follow. They can or can not match.
12:39<Eddi|zuHause3>"may or may not" is probably more appropriate
12:39<@TrueBrain>yeah, my english sucks from time to time :p
12:40<Eddi|zuHause3>i still think it's a non-issue
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12:44<Tekky>Sorry, I was afk. I am reading now.....
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12:44<@TrueBrain>Wow, it can read! :p :p :p
12:44<@TrueBrain>how does it feel?
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12:51<Noldo>what kind of pbs system ttdpatch has?
12:51<Tekky>I think that I will not offer any support for TTDPatch PBS signals, because my PBS is completely different and they therefore wouldn't be compatible anyway.
12:52<DaleStan>What do you mean by "what kind"?
12:52<Noldo>blaah, I will google
12:53<Tekky>this is a good explanation of signals in TTDPatch, also including PBS signals.
12:53<Noldo>thanks Tekky
12:55<@TrueBrain>Tekky, I like that name
12:55<@TrueBrain>it sounds cool :)
12:56<Tekky>hehe, I used the nick "TekBoy" when I was 16 years old :) But now that I am 28 I renamed myself to "Tekky", because the suffix "Boy" is no longer appropriate for a 28 year old :)
12:57<@TrueBrain>so TekOld should be better :p
12:57<Tekky>well, I could have called myself TekMan, but that sounds too much like SpiderMan, BatMan, SuperMan, etc....
12:57<Tekky>so I just called myself Tekky :)
12:59<@TrueBrain>I like the name :)
12:59<Noldo>TrueBrain: say something about this
13:00<Tekky>Noldo: My PBS system will be completely different, though. My system will only have signals in front of intersections and not after intersections. This is because in my system, as in reality, signals are only placed in locations where trains are allowed to wait. And since trains are never supposed to wait inside an intersection, signals are only placed BEFORE intersections in my system, as in
13:00<Noldo>Tekky: I know, I know
13:00<Tekky>reality. Also, my signals will show red by default and will only show green when a train has reserved a path past the signal.
13:01<Noldo>TrueBrain: thanks
13:01<@TrueBrain>Noldo: does it help?
13:03<Tekky>The main thing I am currently thinking about now is whether I should still offer support for pre- and exit signal setups. These will be mostly redundant in my new PBS system, but maybe I should support them anyway for backward compatibility.
13:04<@TrueBrain>you should :)
13:04<Noldo>TrueBrain: no, but having set the request the way I did I'm forced to be content with it
13:04<@TrueBrain>a bit nasty to make it impossible to load OpenTTD savegames from before your ocmmit ;)
13:04<@TrueBrain>Noldo: yup :p
13:05<Tekky>well, the savegames will still work, just the presignals will behave like normal PBS signals :)
13:05<Eddi|zuHause3>Tekky: you should definitely have a switch (patch setting?) to say signals should behave exactly like before (TTD+presignals)
13:05<Noldo>remainds me of the fact that there are two ways to ask "How many..." in finnish
13:06<blathijs>Tekky: It sounds like you're taking a sensible and realisic approach to signaling, nice :-)
13:06|-|skidd13 [] has left #openttd []
13:06<Eddi|zuHause3>also you could have slightly different semantics for those signals
13:08<Eddi|zuHause3>i also like the signalling... it will need a little getting used to, and change of building style...
13:08|-|MrBrrr [] has joined #openttd
13:08<Tekky>Eddi: This will be not easy to make presignals behave the same way as before, because block and path signalling aren't very compatible. However, I am thinking about whether I should treat presignals in such a way that trains which pass the presignal must also reserve a route past the next exit signal. This won't be exactly the same behavior as current OpenTTD behavior, however I think
13:09<Tekky>that all current track will be compatible with this system.
13:10<Noldo>Tekky: doesn't that just mean that pre-exits are ignored?
13:11<Tekky>no, normally trains must reserve a route TO the next signal in order to pass a signal. In my last post, I proposed that trains passing a presignal must reserve a route PAST the next exit signal.
13:11<Tekky>or at least past the next signal, whether it is an exit signal or not.
13:12<Noldo>but if you just treat exit signals as normal rail won't that make the train reserve track to the next signal on the way
13:12<Tekky>blathijs: Yes, I have spent many months thinking about my PBS system and finding a good design.
13:13<Eddi|zuHause3>i like that idea :)
13:13<blathijs>Tekky: Did you write it down somewhere?
13:14<svip>:O I read that.
13:14<svip>I didn't understand a bit.
13:14<svip>But I read it.
13:14<Eddi|zuHause3>Tekky: what i find most disturbing about silently upgrading would be the ability to open up one-way routes for 2-way travel
13:15<Noldo>maybe the tekky-one-ways should be special signals
13:15<Eddi|zuHause3>needs more map bits...
13:15<Noldo>I feel that there will be a need for both kinds of one-ways anyway
13:15<valhallasw>realistic PBS cannot just be used with existing games, no
13:15<valhallasw>could be used as a patch setting though
13:16<Eddi|zuHause3>that's what i was saying... it should be toggleable
13:16<svip>Eddi|zuHause3 is always so wise.
13:16<Noldo>where did Hacky find the space for the pbs signal ?
13:16<Noldo>svip: no he isn't
13:16<svip>:/ Noldo can't see sarcasm when it hits him in the face.
13:16<Noldo>svip: no I can't
13:17<svip>O_O Haha.
13:17[~]svip escapes.
13:17<Eddi|zuHause3>Noldo: there was once an additional map bit available, but afaik that has been occupied by newstations since
13:17<Tekky>yes, I have already decided that there should be two kinds of single signals: 1. single signals with the current OpenTTD graphics 2. single signals with a one-way sign on the other side.
13:17<Eddi|zuHause3>but that was a different kind of map bit... might not be related
13:18<Noldo>hmm, could we reuse the pre-signal space with not too much work
13:18<DaleStan>Tekky: Why should I not pack trains into this a junction when the trains don't have a choice of which exit they take?
13:19<MrBrrr>Should everything be toggleable?
13:20<Eddi|zuHause3>Tekky: there was the idea of upgrading from tile-based signals to edge-based signals at the same time as introducing PBS, have you considered that?
13:20<Noldo>I would like edge-based signals very much
13:20<Tekky>Noldo: In your message " but if you just treat exit signals as normal rail won't that make the train reserve track to the next signal on the way", what do you mean with exit signals? Signals after an intersection in general, or specifically exit signals in a pre- and exit signal setup?
13:21<Noldo>specifically exit signals
13:21<Eddi|zuHause3>Noldo: he said treat exit signals like normal signals, not normal rail
13:23<Tekky>DaleStan: I don't understand what you mean when you talk about "packing" trains into junctions?
13:24<DaleStan>You say that "trains should never wait in junctions". I say that when the train has exactly one choice of path through the junction, it should enter the junction anyway.
13:24<DaleStan>That is, regardless of whether its desired exit is free.
13:26<Noldo>in tekky's system that would mean it will crash with something
13:26<eggburt>if it enters then it could block something else :o
13:26<MrBrrr>In any sensible system it would mean crashes x_x
13:26<Tekky>Eddi: Well, I don't think that is very important for my PBS system to whether signals are in the middle or on the edges of tiles. The main reason for signals being on the edges of tiles is that it would allow more efficient track layouts with the current (non-PBS) signalling system.
13:27<Tekky>sorry, correction, I had a word too much:
13:27<Tekky>Eddi: Well, I don't think that is very important for my PBS system whether signals are in the middle or on the edges of tiles. The main reason for signals being on the edges of tiles is that it would allow more efficient track layouts with the current (non-PBS) signalling system.
13:27<DaleStan><Noldo> in tekky's system that would mean it will crash with something< -- which is why I want signals on both sides of my junctions.
13:28<Noldo>DaleStan: but it's a completely different paradigm
13:29<Noldo>in tekky's system you put signals only in places that trains can safely wait
13:29<DaleStan>But the train can safely wait there.
13:29<blathijs>Tekky: I think that you should not worry too much about how to handle presignals with PBS
13:30<blathijs>Tekky: In particular, I think you need to implement this without removing the old signalling style
13:30<Noldo>DaleStan: you need to draw a picture now
13:30<Tekky>DaleStan: How do you define a junction? Is a track split a junction?
13:30<blathijs>Tekky: But I also think that in any given game, either one of the signalling styles should be used
13:31<blathijs>not both at the same time
13:31<blathijs>So either all signals are old style or all signals are pbs
13:31<blathijs>perhaps that could be a per-player setting, though
13:31<DaleStan>It's a dual-track load balancer, plus a split and a depot.
13:32<Tekky>With a track split or a track merge, there is no need to prevent a train waiting on top of the switch. However, if there are multiple entry tracks and multiple exit tracks (which I call a junction), then no trains should wait in the intersection area, I think.
13:34<Noldo>DaleStan: ok, now I get it, yes trains can safely wait in a track merge with just one exit
13:34<DaleStan>There are two entrances, three exits, and a depot. But no train may have a choice. The paths are selected to be non-conflicting.
13:36<blathijs>What do you mean by "no train may have a choice" ?
13:36<blathijs>Every exit leads somewhere else, so every train will pick exactly one exit
13:37<Tekky>The old OpenTTD PBS implementation uses block signalling and only inside PBS blocks it uses path-based signalling. However, I plan to get rid of block signalling altogether and only use path-based signalling. Therefore, all signals in my system will be PBS signals and not block signals. However, I could try to make existing track layouts work, despite them being based on block signals and
13:37<Tekky>pre- and exit signals.
13:37<DaleStan>Approximately. Two of the exits lead the same place, but no train passing through may switch tracks unless a train is exiting the depot.
13:38<blathijs>Tekky: I think you will not get away with completely replacing the block signalling code by path signalling code
13:38<DaleStan>Beyond that, the entrance location and the current order specify exactly one valid path through the junction.
13:38<blathijs>Tekky: IOW, when you start a game, you should select either path based or block based signalling
13:39<DaleStan>And as soon as I find my users password, I'll post a shot of the junction.
13:39<blathijs>Tekky: So, you would only need to have some kind of converting tool, which tries to convert an existing block based game to a path based game (but that is a one shot conversion)
13:40<blathijs>DaleStan: I don't think the signalling should or can take into account such things (basing itself on orders)
13:40<DaleStan>Oh, so trains should just go somewhere randomly?
13:41<Noldo>DaleStan: I know what you mean
13:41<Tekky>blathijs: I think that it will not do any harm to upgrade standard block signals to PBS signals, provided that single signals continue to be considered one-way in my system (i.e. a no-entry sign is put on the other side). The only problem I see is that I must also implement pre- and exit PBS signals for all existing track layouts to work.
13:42<Noldo>DaleStan: but it can be built so that it's actually just two different 2 to 1 merges
13:42<DaleStan>Trains have a target. That target is specified by the order. Therefore, the pathfinding, and, for PBS, the signalling, must obey the orders.
13:42<DaleStan>Noldo: Not without using space I don't have.
13:43<Noldo>DaleStan: show the picture
13:44<Tekky>blathijs: No, there should be no need for a conversion tool. A single signal will just look different when my patch is active (it will have a no-entry sign on the other side). However, the binary representation (mapbits or whatever) will be the same in my patch. However, I will need a few additional mapbits.
13:45<Tekky>I will need an additional mapbit in order to store whether a single signal is one or two way.
13:48<DaleStan>The meaning of the purple dot, for most purposes, is that trains may not go under the bridge unless they entered from the north entrance.
13:48<Noldo>DaleStan: a train coming from the depot going to the right track can't safely wait without blocking the other track
13:48<Noldo>but the left track is ok to wait
13:49<DaleStan>That can't happen. Trains out of the depot are prevented from going under the bridge.
13:49<blathijs>Tekky: So, you want to support block based and path based signalling in the same game?
13:49<Noldo>DaleStan: how?
13:49<DaleStan>See the purple dot? That says means the signal is restricted.
13:49<blathijs>anyhow, /me is off
13:50<DaleStan>The restriction is, in part, "trains from the depot may not pass this signal".
13:52<Tekky>blathijs: I plan to support current OpenTTD track configurations, however, they will be using path-based signalling instead of block signalling.
13:52<svip>I'm back.
13:52<svip>Did you not miss me?
13:52<DaleStan>Or, more accurately, "The pathfinder cannot find a path from the depot past this signal". If a train ended up there anyway, it would still pass.
13:52<@Bjarni><svip> Did you not miss me? <--- no we didn't
13:52<Tekky>blathijs: The signals will be the same, however, internally, they will work completely differently.
13:52<@Bjarni>you left?
13:53<Prof_Frink>svip: Is half of your face gone?
13:53<svip>You are typical Danish.
13:53<@Bjarni>I do my best
13:53<svip>Sorry, Prof_Frink, no.
13:53<Prof_Frink>Then yes, I missed you
13:53<svip>I did ask with a not.
13:53<@TrueBrain>svip: you get one free ticket to kick someone at your choice :p
13:53<svip>To make your answer more confusing!
13:53<svip>No thanks.
13:53<svip>All people are lovable in here.
13:54<@TrueBrain>even Bjarni?!
13:54<svip>He has that Danish mystic about him.
13:54<blathijs>Tekky: So the signals will look the same, but they will have (slightly) different semantics
13:54<@Bjarni>looks like svip is gay
13:54<svip>:/ No.
13:54<svip>I am hot for Estonians.
13:54<Tekky>blathijs: I will not mix block- and path-based signalling, because they are not very compatible. I only plan to make existing signal layouts work as path-based signals.
13:55<redmonkey>updated: :)
13:55|-|Purno [] has joined #openttd
13:55<@Bjarni>what's so special about Estonians?
13:55<Noldo>TrueBrain: I woudn't mind terribly if by some accident you happened to say something usefull about FS1149
13:55<svip>They speak Estonian?
13:55<@TrueBrain>redmonkey: we can read in #openttd.notice, no need to say it here
13:55<blathijs>Tekky: I think you also plan to fully support block signalling, ie don't enable PBS at all?
13:55<@TrueBrain>Noldo: won't happen in this month
13:55<blathijs>Tekky: If you're not going to mix them, I would propose a onetime conversion when PBS is enabled
13:55<redmonkey>TrueBrain: alright
13:56<blathijs>Tekky: AFAICS, presignals completely lose their value with path based signalling
13:56<Tekky>blathijs: Yes, the signals will look the same, except that signal signals will get a one-way sign on the other side with my patch, by default. This one-way sign can be removed then to allow bi-directional traffic.
13:56<blathijs>so, when PBS is enabled, you should convert them to some comparable layout of normal signals with PBS
13:57<Tekky>blathijs: Yes, presignals will be redundant to a large extent when PBS signals exist, except for special things like priority lines.
13:57<@Bjarni>Tekky: do you have a written "plot" for your PBS plans?
13:57<@Bjarni>like what should the signals be able to do and how should they do it
13:57<blathijs>20:14 < Tekky> blathijs:
13:58<@Bjarni>oh sorry
13:58<@Bjarni>missed that one :(
13:58<blathijs>Tekky: I would propose to reuse the presignal bit combinations when PBS is enabled, so you won't need an extra bit
13:59<Tekky>yes, however, in that wiki article, I mainly talk about bi-directional double track. But this requires "weak" reservations and "unsafe" signals, which I don't plan to support in my first PBS release.
13:59<blathijs>but, I'm really off to watch a movie now, but I'll read back later tonight :-)
13:59<@TrueBrain>have fun blathijs :)
13:59<@Bjarni>bye blathijs
13:59<@TrueBrain>I watch moving while waiting for gf, while IRCing...
13:59<@TrueBrain>how nice :p
13:59<@TrueBrain>moving = movie
14:00<Tekky>bye blathijs.
14:00<Noldo>moving as in moving picture
14:00<svip>How about a new disaster in the game? POWER CUT.
14:00<@Bjarni>no way
14:00<@Bjarni>I tried that in real life
14:01<@Bjarni>no fun :(
14:01<svip>o_o All your trains that run on electricity fail.
14:01<@Bjarni>svip: inspired by DSB?
14:01<svip>Well, kinda.
14:01<svip>But eggburt also suggested it.
14:01<@Bjarni>well, it was actually BaneDanmark, who screwed up yesterday
14:01<svip>o_o Did you hear about the stuff at Nørrebro?
14:01<@Bjarni>maybe not screwed up, but became really unlucky
14:01<svip>Or on Nørrebro?
14:02<@Bjarni>I did
14:02<svip>I don't know how it works in English.
14:02<svip>o_o It was crazy.
14:02<svip>My brother says it was worse than last time.
14:02<@Bjarni>as usual with those people
14:02<mcbane>could it be that internet refresh dont work?
14:02<MrBrrr>Well, how about needing a supplied Power Station for electrified rails to work?
14:02<mcbane>i created a server and my friend dont find ti
14:03<svip>Would make sense, MrBrrr.
14:03<svip>Now wouldn't it?
14:03<@Bjarni>mcbane: did you advertise it?
14:03<MrBrrr>Well, since someone's suggestin :)
14:03<svip>Well, with an IP or domain name?
14:03<@Bjarni>mcbane: try to make your friend join your IP
14:03|-||Jeroen| [] has quit [Quit: oO]
14:03<svip>o_O Oh that kind of server.
14:03<mcbane>i used internet (dvertise)
14:04<@Bjarni><svip> My brother says it was worse than last time. <--- I hate to ask, but.... why was your brother present at a riot?
14:04<svip>He was at his girlfriend's birthday party.
14:04<svip>And she lives just were it was worse.
14:04<svip>So he wasn't in the riot.
14:04<svip>But close enough.
14:05<MrBrrr>Riot? About what?
14:05|-|NukeBuster [] has joined #openttd
14:05<@Bjarni>about not being allowed to take over a building owned by somebody else
14:05|-|MarkSlap [] has joined #openttd
14:05<MrBrrr>Oh that.
14:05<@Bjarni>they tried to burn down the city again last night
14:06<MrBrrr>The entire city? Oh dear.
14:06<svip>I thought they were celebrating the Copenhagen Bombing.
14:06<MrBrrr>Maybe they did both.
14:06<svip>You know about the Copenhagen Bombings?
14:06<svip>But you're Canadian!
14:07<svip>Bjarni: I thought other people didn't care about us!
14:07<@Bjarni><MrBrrr> The entire city? Oh dear. <--- well, maybe not the entire city, but they started more than 20 fires
14:07<@Bjarni>svip: well... he is Canadian... they are always different
14:07<MrBrrr>And that means what svip?
14:08<@Bjarni>it means that US citizens never realise what happens here
14:08<MrBrrr>Canadians are not americans, geez :P
14:08<@Bjarni>that's what I just said :)
14:08<svip>I know you have geography in school.
14:08<@Bjarni>Canadians are different
14:08<MrBrrr>When your neighbor is like a frat party gone wrong, you look elsewhere :)
14:08<svip>But do you have to care about us Danes?
14:08<svip>Wait, MrBrrr.
14:08<svip>Why is your English not Canadian English?
14:09<svip>You are not Canadian! >:O I knew it!
14:09<@Bjarni>Canada is trying to steal our island so they have to story their enemy :P
14:09<svip>But MrBrrr's cover has been blown.
14:09<svip>He is obviously an American.
14:09<MrBrrr>My word... Conspiracy theorists hard at work :P
14:09<svip>I saw him using American English.
14:09<@peter1138>Well, Canada is in (North) America
14:10<svip>You know what I mean, Peter Paul Mary.
14:10<MrBrrr>Kanada sounds nicer anyway.
14:10<@Bjarni>American English is still corrupted English and should still be avoided
14:10<svip>It is not Kanada in Danish any more. :(
14:10<@peter1138>New Zero Kanada
14:10<svip>But, Bjarni.
14:10<svip>It is still Kanada in Estonian.
14:10<svip>Just as Denmark is called Taani in Estonian.
14:10<@Bjarni>what is it with you and Estonia?
14:11<svip>I might know in half a year.
14:11<svip>:O I am going to Estonia this Christmas.
14:11<svip>Of course not.
14:11<svip>To meet a female.
14:11<MrBrrr>How are females in Estonia?
14:12<@Bjarni>sounds like James Bond.... travelling to former USSR to meet a woman
14:12<svip>o_o Dunno, but they claim to be better than the Swedish.
14:12<svip>It is not Estonia SSR any more.
14:12<@Bjarni>I said former
14:12<svip>Yeah yeah.
14:12<svip>But just like you don't talk to Tekky about the war.
14:12<MrBrrr>Better in what way?
14:12<Prof_Frink>The name's Ip. Sv Ip.
14:13<svip>MrBrrr: Dunno.
14:13<svip>That's why I am going to be more knowledgeable
14:13[~]Bjarni wonders why svip fails to find a Danish woman
14:13<svip>I'll report.
14:13<@Bjarni>there are plenty of them
14:13<svip>>:O Yeah.
14:13<svip>But they speak Danish too.
14:13<svip>o_o And besides.
14:14<svip>It is more exotic being Estonian.
14:14<@Bjarni>you make it sound like it's bad to be able to speak Danish o_O
14:14<svip>O_o No.
14:14<MrBrrr>I'll be waiting to be briefed when you get back.
14:14<svip>It's just that... then they understand me.
14:14<@Bjarni>MrBrrr: don't hold your breath
14:14<@peter1138>BEER BEER BEER, we're going for a bee-eer
14:14<svip>Indeed, Bjarni.
14:14<svip>As it is only after Christmas.
14:15<Prof_Frink>peter1138! newbeers!
14:15<svip>Why isn't there beer in OpenTTD?
14:15<@Bjarni><svip> It's just that... then they understand me. <--- you mean you talk garbage to females?
14:15<@peter1138>There is with certain NewGRFs
14:15<svip>No, that doesn't make it interesting, Bjarni.
14:15<svip>:( Will you stop teasing me?
14:16<@Bjarni>I really don't get why it should be so interesting to go that far to meet women with a language barrier :s
14:16<svip>Estonia isn't far away.
14:16<svip>Pfft, Bjarni.
14:16<svip>I love languages.
14:16<svip>So does she.
14:16<@Bjarni>it is in the language
14:16<Prof_Frink>Oh aye?
14:17<svip>Have you created your own artificial language, PERHAPS?
14:17<Prof_Frink>Bjarni: He told her he was a cunning linguist.
14:17<svip>I don't lie.
14:17<svip>Not about such.
14:17<Prof_Frink>svip: lies.
14:18<svip>I told her I was an amateur linguist.
14:18<@Bjarni>svip: do you always lie?
14:18<svip>And besides, she is studying finno-uric languages at the University of Tartu.
14:18<Prof_Frink>...But that doesn't make the joke.
14:19<svip>That is a stupid question, Bjarni.
14:19<svip>Cause I can only answer "no".
14:19<svip>And that won't tell you anything.
14:19<@Bjarni>svip: you were supposed to say no, which would be a useless answer :/
14:19<@Bjarni>you noticed
14:19<svip>I did.
14:19<svip>Great Danes think alike.
14:20<svip>And not talking about the dogs.
14:20<svip>Anyone who laughs is a communist.
14:20<@Bjarni>looks like Prof_Frink is a communist :/
14:20<svip>Isn't that apparent?
14:20<Prof_Frink>svip: Fools seldom differ.
14:21<svip>Prof_Frink has a point though.
14:21<svip>And it is also a problem if great minds think alike.
14:21<svip>Cause then they don't come up with good ideas.
14:21<@Bjarni>I don't think 100% like you
14:21<@Bjarni>that's for sure
14:21<Prof_Frink>Bjarni: s/think 100% //
14:22<@Bjarni>it would be really odd if you think just like me
14:22<svip>Especially since you aren't going to Estonia.
14:23<@Bjarni>that's a very good example of how we differ
14:23<@Bjarni>I still don't get why you are into that Estonia trip
14:23<svip>I was in Canada, France and the Netherlands this summer as well.
14:24<@Bjarni>maybe you are going to buy and import a future wife or something
14:24<@Bjarni>or maybe she thinks so
14:24<svip>I hope, Bjarni.
14:24<svip>But you know...
14:24<svip>A man can dream though, a man can dream.
14:24<@Bjarni>be careful
14:24<svip> -- Professor Farnsworth
14:25<@Bjarni>such marriages are usually investigated by the mafia and that's no fun
14:25<svip>The Estonian mafia?
14:25<svip>You've got to be kidding me.
14:25<svip>There are only 1.3 million Estonians.
14:25<Prof_Frink>The 'ull mafia.
14:25<@Bjarni>it takes less than 50 people to create a really nasty mafia
14:26<svip>I didn't read that you said "buy and import".
14:27<@Bjarni>well, the fact is that they find people from the Baltic countries, who moved to the west and blackmail them to get money from the west or something nasty will happen to the family left behind
14:27<@Bjarni>it happened several times
14:28<mcbane>i was in sweden and norway this year =P
14:28<@Bjarni>I'm sorry
14:28<@Bjarni>must have been hard on you
14:28<mcbane>heh in not danish,
14:29<@Bjarni>well, there is one good thing about Sweden compared to Denmark
14:29<@Bjarni>they have a better view
14:30<@Bjarni>anyway what were you doing there?
14:31<mcbane>why do they have a better view? on what
14:31<@Bjarni>whenever I look at the water, Sweden is on the other side
14:31<@Bjarni>go figure out the rest
14:33[~]mcbane laughs.
14:33<@Bjarni>but it's not entirely a joke
14:34<@Bjarni>take the ferry between Sweden and Denmark. On the Swedish side, it's full of big tanks (fuel?/chemical plant or something) and on the Danish side, we have Kronborg and a town with a waterside front with buildings dating back 2-300 years
14:35<@Bjarni>that's 200-300, not 2 years to 300 years ;)
14:35<Prof_Frink>Bjarni: The latter is also true
14:37<@Bjarni> <-- this is more or less the view from Sweden (a closeup though)
14:39<MarkSlap>Hmm, why can't I remove some streets in a town when I'm "Exellent"?
14:40<MarkSlap>Bjarni, that's a Danish site :p
14:40<@peter1138>You can only remove end pieces
14:40<MarkSlap>And there is'nt any snow here now ^^
14:40<MarkSlap>peter1138, oh
14:41<MarkSlap>Is it a new "function"?
14:41<thingwath>and there is no railway at all, uh
14:41<@peter1138>Not that I'm aware of. There is a patch option to fiddle with.
14:41<@Bjarni><MarkSlap> Bjarni, that's a Danish site :p <-- yes, but if you "step back" (wow, waterwalking) from where the picture is taken, you will end up in Sweden
14:41<MarkSlap>Oh :D
14:41<@Bjarni>odds are that the photo is taken onboard a boat
14:42<MarkSlap>Bjarni, I only read the last sentence
14:42<@Bjarni>that's usually not enough to claim a whole point in a conversation as incorrect :P
14:43<MarkSlap>Exactly :D
14:43<@Bjarni>or rather, the proof of the point
14:43<MarkSlap>Bjarni, are you Danish?
14:43<svip>Isn't it apparent?
14:43<svip>Even his ident is Danish.
14:43<@Bjarni>not to Swedes, it seems :|
14:43<MarkSlap>Didn't check that :D
14:43<svip>:| Apparently not.
14:44<svip>Crazy Swedes.
14:44<MarkSlap>Oh :D
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14:44<svip>Ooooo another Swede.
14:44<@Bjarni>it's an invasion :o
14:44<MarkSlap>I think you're a litlle hard on swedes right now :D
14:44<svip>We are not the ones adding a's to every second word.
14:44<MarkSlap>And I'm finnish :>
14:44<MarkSlap>I know
14:45<MarkSlap>But I'm tired and sucks a english for the moment
14:45<svip>From the Swedish part of Finland, I presume?
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14:45<MarkSlap>I dunno
14:45<svip>You don't know?
14:45<MarkSlap>I live in Sweden you see
14:45<svip>You just woke up one day and realised you live in Finland?
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14:47<@Bjarni>actually I don't think it's a "Swedish talking part" of Finland, more like some people speak Swedish and some speak Finnish and they are mixed (but most likely mainly near Sweden)
14:47<@Bjarni>it's not Swedish colonies in Finland
14:47<svip>There is a Swedish part of Finland.
14:47<MarkSlap>My family comes from finland
14:47<svip>Indeed, it is so great that Swedish is a second official language of Finland.
14:47<MarkSlap>And I'm like, a quarter finnish(?)
14:47<svip>And the national anthem has a Swedish version.
14:48<MarkSlap>There is even swedish signs in Helsinki
14:48<@Bjarni>[21:44:47] <MarkSlap> And I'm finnish :>
14:48<@Bjarni>[21:47:51] <MarkSlap> And I'm like, a quarter finnish(?)
14:48<ln->and in many other major cities
14:48<svip>MrBrrr and Belugas would inform you that the Canadian anthem has an English and a French version.
14:48<MarkSlap>Bjarni, yeah
14:48<MrBrrr>True that.
14:48<MarkSlap>I think i'm gonna shut up right now
14:49<svip>Don't worry, MarkSlap.
14:49|-|redmonkey [] has quit [Quit: quit]
14:49<svip>Finland and Canada aren't at war.
14:49<MrBrrr>How does everyone feel with the loading times?
14:49<MarkSlap>Good for them! ^^
14:49<svip>What loading times?
14:49<ln->Bjarni: there are certain areas where >50% of people speak swedish.
14:49<MrBrrr>I mean, should I build a 20 square long station for my 20 wagons long train?
14:49<ln->Bjarni: even areas where 90% of people speak swedish.
14:49<MrBrrr>Seems like an odd sort of thing to do.
14:49<svip>A waggon doesn't fill an entire square, MrBrrr.
14:50<MarkSlap>MrBrrr, 10 square long station = 20 wagons long train
14:50<@Bjarni>ln-: is that parts of towns or whole areas?
14:50<MrBrrr>I mean square-long.
14:50<MrBrrr>ie: 39 wagons + one engine
14:50<svip>A 20 square-long train.
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14:50<ln->Bjarni: areas on the coasts.
14:50<MrBrrr>Well, yar.
14:50<MarkSlap>If you don't have a doubletrain
14:50<ln->consisting of several towns
14:50<@Bjarni>like Turku?
14:51<MarkSlap>ln-, in Åland there are'nt many people who speaks finnish
14:51<ln->bjarni: not really, but take the car and drive 30 km towards the archipelago and it gets a lot more swedish
14:51<MarkSlap>What is a archipelago?
14:52<ln->MarkSlap: Åland is an exception.
14:52<@Bjarni>a lot of small islands
14:52<@Bjarni>@ MarkSlap
14:52<MarkSlap>ln-, mhm :)
14:52<ln->MarkSlap: skärgård
14:52<MarkSlap>Bjarni, oh
14:52<MarkSlap>ln-, ah, såpass :)
14:52<MarkSlap>Thanks ^^
14:52<MarkSlap>Now I'm gonna play again
14:53<ln->Bjarni: but the especially swedishistic areas are on the western coast, both south and north of Vaasa.
14:53<@Bjarni>MrBrrr: the odd part about loading times, train stations and train lengths aren't when you can fit a train in the station (it's perfectly fine if you can). It's more like if you can't
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14:54<@Bjarni>like it's realistic that it takes many times as long to unload if a passenger train with an engine in both ends sticks the rear engine out of the platform...
14:55<MrBrrr>What's the largest station one can build ? (7 square long?)
14:55<@Bjarni>I can tell you this much: in real life, loading times are reduced if you decide to place the engine outside the platform instead of the cars
14:55<MrBrrr>Makes sense.
14:55<Prof_Frink>MrBrrr: As big as station spread allows
14:55<@Bjarni>there is no real limit other than the max station spread, which is a patch setting
14:56<MrBrrr>Oh dear.
14:56<@Bjarni>set the station spread to 200 (and pray that your computer is fast enough to handle that... it's not likely) and build a single station covering the whole map
14:57<MrBrrr>Well, that would be overdoing it.
14:57<ln->Bjarni: i ett litet kommun, Närpes, är dialekten så konstig att varken finnar eller svenskar förstår den, och den är närmare till arkaisk norge än svenska, säger några.
14:57<SmatZ>Bjarni: why will it slow down the computer? except the AI
14:57<@Bjarni>most likely you will not need more than 51 tiles as no train can be longer than 101 units, or 50,5 tiles
14:58<@Bjarni>SmatZ: the bigger the station spread is, the more CPU time it takes to calculate stuff for each station
14:58<@Bjarni>ln-: hehe
14:58<SmatZ>Bjarni: when I have big stations and lower station spred to, say, 4, will it be faster?
14:58<@Bjarni>SmatZ: and the CPU load increases experientially with the station spread setting
14:59<@Bjarni>good question
14:59<ln->Bjarni: btw, if i had said that sentence to you aloud (as opposed to writing), would you have understood a word of it?
15:00<SmatZ>Bjarni: I think there was some problem with AI, that with higher spread it went very slow... so I though that when this was solved, the spred doesn't slow down the game
15:00<@Bjarni>ln-: most likely
15:00[~]Bjarni has more Swedish than Danish TV channels
15:01<ln->Bjarni: also remember that i don't speak rikssvenska and especially not skåne-style svenska, but this a little different-sounding finlandssvenska.
15:01<@Bjarni>it happens that I watch Swedish TV....
15:03<@Bjarni>ln-: actually rikssvenska is easier to understand than anything from Skåne (odd, but true). However I guess you speak with a "melody" kind of like Finnish and that wouldn't stop me from understanding it
15:10<@peter1138>i've never noticed high station spread to slow anything down
15:11<@Bjarni>the text contains a warning against high numbers
15:11<@Bjarni>and I think I had a severe slowdown once, but that was likely when I used a computer that was noteworthy slower than everybody else
15:21<svip>Is it possible to get the distance to an industry?
15:21<svip>By knowing where you are and having the industry?
15:23<@Bjarni>we have functions to find the distance between two tiles
15:23<svip>IN map.h?
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15:23<svip>Cause I can't find them in there.
15:23<svip>Yay, skidd13.
15:23<@Bjarni>hi skidd13
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15:23<@Bjarni>I can remember HOW they work, but not WHERE they are :/
15:23<svip>Then you must remember their name.
15:25<svip>Alternatively, I can get the X and the Y of both tiles, and then compare them.
15:25<svip>But I'd think a function already did that.
15:26<@Bjarni>src/map.h:uint DistanceManhattan(TileIndex, TileIndex); ///< also known as L1-Norm. Is the shortest distance one could go over diagonal tracks (or roads) <--- something like this?
15:26<@Bjarni>uint DistanceSquare(TileIndex, TileIndex); ///< euclidian- or L2-Norm squared
15:27<svip>Which of them should I pick?
15:27<@Bjarni>Manhattan is build out of square blocks and a lot of parallel roads, so manhattan distance is the distance in manhattan following the roads
15:27<@Bjarni>the other one is the direct (fugleflugt) distance
15:27<@Bjarni>I think
15:28<@Bjarni>actually there are 5 different functions depending on what you need the result for
15:28<@Bjarni>go read them
15:29<CIA-3>OpenTTD: miham * r11038 /trunk/src/lang/ (9 files): (log message trimmed)
15:29<CIA-3>OpenTTD: -Update: WebTranslator2 update to 2007-09-02 22:28:19
15:29<CIA-3>OpenTTD: brazilian_portuguese - 4 fixed by tucalipe (4)
15:29<CIA-3>OpenTTD: bulgarian - 1 fixed by thetitan (1)
15:29<CIA-3>OpenTTD: catalan - 4 fixed by arnaullv (4)
15:29<CIA-3>OpenTTD: croatian - 6 fixed, 563 changed by knovak (569)
15:29<CIA-3>OpenTTD: czech - 4 fixed by Hadez (4)
15:30<svip>Bjarni, how do I fill an array quickly?
15:30<svip>With the same value.
15:30<ln->or what kind of arrays are we talking about
15:30<svip>I have a CargoID array.
15:30<ln->and i'm not Bjarni, just for the record.
15:31<svip>Which I want to fill with CT_INVALID
15:31<svip>I know, ln-.
15:32<Rubidium>Tekky: have you thought about trains reversing? When there is no signal at the end of a junction, the train would go back onto the junction without even seeing a red signal.
15:33<ln->"shit happens"
15:36<@Bjarni>svip: memset is the way to go
15:36<@Bjarni>it's fast
15:36<svip>But how does it work?
15:36<+glx>as it should :)
15:36<Rubidium>`man memset`
15:36<@Bjarni>you give it a pointer to the first part of the array, the value you want, how many and the size of each block
15:37<@Bjarni>for details, do as Rubidium said
15:37<@Bjarni>make sure you always set all of them and NEVER TOO MANY
15:37<ln->Bjarni: no, only how many bytes, not block size.
15:37<@Bjarni>the last one is tricky to find if it happens because it will screw up something else
15:38<@Bjarni>ln-: it's the same in this case as CargoID is a byte
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15:39<ln->Bjarni: memset always takes the number of bytes.
15:39<svip>So like this:
15:39<svip>CargoID cargo_list[MAX_CATCHMENT];
15:39<svip>memset(cargo_list, (int)CT_INVALID, MAX_CATCHMENT);
15:40<@Bjarni>why do you typecast to int?
15:40<svip>Because it said int in the man page.
15:40<Rubidium>and why do you make a list of size MAX_CATCHMENT?
15:40<@Bjarni>wouldn't it be logical to typecast to byte since you are dealing with bytes?
15:41<@Bjarni>and that is another good question :)
15:41<ln->svip: do not typecast that way, you can easily cast anything to anything, even if it doesn't make any sense.
15:42<CIA-3>OpenTTD: rubidium * r11039 /trunk/src/ (economy.cpp graph_gui.cpp): -Fix [FS#1191]: underflow that caused overflows in the performance rating calculation.
15:43<svip>:D Bjarni
15:44<svip>Sadly, I can't overlap.
15:44<svip>So I just pick what is closest.
15:44<Rubidium>svip: why MAX_CATCHMENT?
15:44<svip>Cause that is the area I search in.
15:44<@peter1138>can you not add it up as you go along?
15:44<Rubidium>MAX_CATCHMENT defines the radius
15:45<Rubidium>furthermore tiles can accept multiple cargo types
15:45<svip>So I put them in the list by their destination to the industry.
15:45<svip>And then afterwards I can pick which is closest.
15:46<svip>Here is the source.
15:48<@Bjarni>svip: actually when I talked about making an overlay of accepted cargo, I was thinking about selecting one cargo type only and then have a bool for each tile to see if I could deliver that particular cargo to the tile in question
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15:49<svip>The function can do that as well.
15:49<svip>Indeed, I might remove that it can do them all right now.
15:49<svip>Until I add the options to the GUI.
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15:54<mcbane>how to get faction with local authorities?
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15:54<mcbane>advertising or house building?
15:55<Prof_Frink>mcbane: Trees.
15:55<svip>Plant lots of trees.
15:55<svip>But only within their area.
15:56<svip>:> And if you had my patch, you could easily see where that was. ;)
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16:20<mcbane>umm what dies the fix of fa#1191 do ? recalculate te right rating of stations and industry?
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16:36<Eddi|zuHause3><svip> <- err....
16:37<Eddi|zuHause3>have you considered that not all tiles of the refinery actually accept oil?!?
16:37<Eddi|zuHause3>same with power stations
16:38<redmonkey>hi again. just one question. will the bug FS#1191 be fixed in the next stable version now (0.5.3)?
16:39<+glx>Additional comments about closing: In r11039; will be backported. It won't fix the old entries in the graph, but new entries will be correct.
16:40<redmonkey>yea, but what does "backported" means? i'm not into programmer talk :)
16:41<+glx>it means it will go in 0.5 branch
16:41<redmonkey>ah okay. good.
16:42<svip><EddizuHause3> have you considered that not all tiles of the refinery actually accept oil?!? << Huh?
16:42<svip>It's different from tile to tile?
16:42<Eddi|zuHause3>use the query tool :)
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16:43<Rubidium>even considered that one tile does not always make a steel mill accept passengers?
16:44<Rubidium>you need a few tiles in the coverage area for a steel mill to accept passengers
16:44<Rubidium>s/you need/your station needs/
16:45<svip>So I need to get the IndustrySpecTile and not just the IndustrySpec?
16:45<svip>But that requires I get the IndustryGfx.
16:45<svip>And how do I do that?
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16:46<Eddi|zuHause3>yeah, like with houses
16:46<Rubidium>svip: guess how a function would be called if it gets an IndustryGfx?
16:46<+glx>gfx is in the map
16:46<svip>Yeah, Rubidium.
16:46<+glx>there's an accessor for it
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16:48<+glx>that should help you to find where it is declared
16:49<svip>How do I found out all Cargos used by the current map type?
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16:51<Rubidium>something that would be a gazillion times easier is just using GetAcceptedCargo instead of implementing the same thing again (I think)
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16:54<+glx>it's too easy ;)
16:55<svip>O_o How make the ac though?
16:55<svip>The AcceptedCargo argument.
16:55<+glx>check how it's done in Place_LandInfo
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16:57<Eddi|zuHause3>i think it would be more useful to check how it is done in station building, but i don't actually have a clue :)
16:57<+glx>well Place_LandInfo is the query tool
16:58<Eddi|zuHause3>yeah, i figured that :)
16:59<Eddi|zuHause3>but he wants the cargo that gets accepted by the area around the current tile, which is similar to what the station placement code does to show which cargo the station will accept
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17:03<svip>:| glx.
17:03<svip>But doesn't that mean I have to run through the entire list of cargo's each time?
17:04<skidd13>good night
17:04<svip>Night, skidd13.
17:04<svip>You said little.
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17:05<skidd13>svip: yup, have rewritten the whole direction usage in the town growth... so haven't got time ;)
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17:06<mcbane>question i have 99% transported but mine dont raise production
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17:06<svip>Why should it, mcbane?
17:06|-|Strid [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
17:06<Eddi|zuHause3>we' s'hould ha've 'a memo'rial mi'nute fo'r al'l t'he abuse'd apostrophe's
17:06<+glx>mcbane: random at work :)
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17:08<+glx>mcbane: explains some of the magic behind production
17:08<mcbane>are ya dure glx?
17:09<mcbane>i have one kind of mine (for example all same production at start (shouldnt it be random?)) and dont raising output...
17:11<+glx>it's all random, but random may look not random
17:12<+glx>many values can give the same result as we don't use all bits of the random number to determine what to do
17:17<mcbane>but start values are all same for one type cargo thats changed..
17:20<+glx>no I just generated a map, it has 10 coal mine, only 2 have the same production
17:24<svip>Why does it always print the colour of passengers now, glx?
17:25<Eddi|zuHause3>uninitialised variable?
17:26<+glx>it stops on the first cargo found
17:26<svip>It does?
17:27<Eddi|zuHause3>what is the sense of that for loop anyway?
17:27<svip>It loops through all cargos.
17:27<Eddi|zuHause3>if you search for a fixed cargo (e.g. oil), why loop through anything?
17:27<svip>And the ac array contains all cargos the industry accepts.
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17:27<svip>Cause I have to loop through it to find it, Eddi|zuHause3. :|
17:27<svip>I used a different method before.
17:28<svip>But then Rubidium said no no no.
17:28<svip>There is a GetAcceptedCargo() function.
17:28<Eddi|zuHause3>what? the same cargo has always the same index...
17:28<svip>:| But right now it can also look through all cargo.
17:29<Eddi|zuHause3>so if you search for oil, just check ac[oil]
17:29<svip>Which I will remove when I have added the "pick a cargo" feature.
17:29<Eddi|zuHause3>also, this totally misbehaves if you have less than 8/8 cargo on a tile...
17:30<svip>O_O Yeah.
17:31<Eddi|zuHause3>i have a weird problem, my graphics driver lacks 3D acceleration (which is a problem, but not the weird part)... the weird part is that OTTD now is extremely slow, even though it should only need 2D acceleration
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17:33<Eddi|zuHause3>and it gets even weirder, it is totally alright, when i start with -b 32bpp-simple
17:34<stillunknown>Eddi|zuHause3: what driver are you using?
17:34<+glx>8bpp->32bpp conversion may be slow
17:34<Eddi|zuHause3>linux, ati, sdl
17:34<+glx>that's why fullscreen sometimes help
17:35<stillunknown>Eddi|zuHause3: What hardware if i may ask?
17:36<Eddi|zuHause3>err... Radeon 9700 i think... it was allright previously, but on some recent update it failed to compile the 3D kernel module or something, and it hasn't worked ever since, even with downgrading to previous versions
17:37<ln->hmm, are there really non-stop flights from London to Sydney?
17:38<+glx>it should be possible, depending of plane type
17:38<stillunknown>Eddi|zuHause3: It's possible that most of the 2d acceleration goes through the 2d engine.
17:38<stillunknown>*3d engine
17:38<Eddi|zuHause3>the only person i have seen traveling in that direction had stop in singapore
17:39<Eddi|zuHause3>stillunknown: i never had problems with other programs
17:40<svip>How do I draw a TEXTBTN with a function?
17:40<svip>I basically wants to draw a legend when a user picks a specific zoning.
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17:43<stillunknown>Eddi|zuHause3: There's also the possibility that because of a broken drm, you have reverted to the vesa driver or something alike.
17:43<stillunknown>Which could offer no 2d acceleration at all.
17:44|-|Dark_Link^skola changed nick to Dark_Link^sleep
17:44<Eddi|zuHause3>stillunknown: i HAVE 2d accelleration everywhere... just not with openttd 8bbp
17:44<Eddi|zuHause3>e.g. i have xv
17:45<Eddi|zuHause3>and no acceleration would also make 32bpp slow
17:45<MrBrrr>Has anyone ever thought about removing the 180 degree turn a train does when reaching the end of the line?
17:45<stillunknown>Maybe the fallback 2d acceleration is not enough for openttd.
17:46<Eddi|zuHause3>MrBrrr: lots of people... big problem...
17:46<MrBrrr>What were the big problems?
17:47<Eddi|zuHause3>the first problem is making a train go backwards, meaning the last wagon has to become engine, and all first pointers need updating, it gets quite messy
17:47<Eddi|zuHause3>the second problem is not all trains are realistically capable of driving backwards
17:47<MrBrrr>the second problem doesn't seem that problematic, but the first one, eeek.
17:48<Eddi|zuHause3>the third problem, in order to realistically solve problem #2, you need shunting (separating between engine and wagons) and turntables
17:48<+glx>main problem is a train need to have an engine as first "vehicle"
17:50<Eddi|zuHause3>also problem III. a) in order to switch engines at a terminus station, you need a stash of replacement engines
17:50<Eddi|zuHause3>which need to rotate through the trains scheduled to the stations
17:51<Eddi|zuHause3>but only a subset of all trains
17:51<Eddi|zuHause3>it creates a huge order mess at best
17:52<MrBrrr>Isn't that solution a bit too much?
17:52<MrBrrr>So far the main problem remains the whole engine as first vehicle :(
17:53<Eddi|zuHause3>well, either stupid or realistic, there is no useful version inbetween
17:53<MrBrrr>Well, with the way depots work, realistic is a long way off.
17:53<MrBrrr>Seeing 10 wagons enter that little tile always makes me smile :)
17:54<Eddi|zuHause3>that is probably easily solveable when you implement #3
17:55<MrBrrr>I'd have to read on turntables.
17:57<Sacro>Eddi|zuHause3: hehe, switching engines at the terminii is fun
17:57<Sacro>doing SimSig Kings Cross
17:57<Sacro>you need a few extra locos for trains
17:57<svip>What the hell?
17:57<svip>src/zoning.h:32: error: expected primary-expression before '=' token
17:57<svip>I don't even have a "=" token on that line.
17:58<+glx>check previous line
17:58<Eddi|zuHause3>broken include
17:58<+glx>usually it's a missing ;
17:59<svip>I found out what it was.
17:59<svip>I had defined something as = 7;
17:59<Sacro>s/$/;/ should do it
17:59<MrBrrr>Question: How much realism should there be in OpenTTD?
17:59<Sacro>MrBrrr: 402
17:59<svip>:( I completely forgot how #define worked.
18:00<svip>That's the tax fee as well.
18:00<MrBrrr>Argh, alrighty there.
18:00<MrBrrr>*then (sleepy)
18:02<svip>I don't get it.
18:02<svip>I create a variable in the header file.
18:03<svip>But yet it says I have undefined references to it.
18:04<svip>zoning_gui.o(.text+0x154): In function `ZoningToolbWndProc(Window*, WindowEvent*)':
18:04<svip>: undefined reference to `_outer_legends'
18:05<svip>VARDEF StringID _outer_legends[ZONING_COLOURS];
18:05<svip>That is zoning.h btw.
18:05<+glx>that's the declaration
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18:05<svip>Yeah... hmm?
18:05<+glx>you need to implement it in a cpp file too
18:06<svip>Ah right.
18:07<MrBrrr>In RC3, which is the more "realistic", normal acceleration or the "realistic" one? As far as climbing hills and such?
18:07<svip>Can I run memset outside of a function?
18:07<+glx>svip: no
18:08<svip>I need to run it once.
18:08<svip>But only once.
18:08<svip>And this function is called over and over again.
18:08<svip>Cause it is the Window function thingie.
18:08<svip>Got any suggestions?
18:09<svip>O_O I check if it is good.
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18:10<Eddi|zuHause3>svip: make an initialisation on game startup
18:10<svip>In openttd.cpp?
18:10<Eddi|zuHause3>for example
18:11<Eddi|zuHause3>gnah... i play for 10 minutes and already miss PBS :(
18:13<Eddi|zuHause3>also, the daylength patch was kinda fun... besides of its quirks
18:13<MrBrrr>Why the "was" ?
18:13<Sacro>yay, daylength patch
18:14<Sacro>Eddi|zuHause3: it had no quirks
18:14<Sacro>it was perfect
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18:14<MrBrrr>Why the "was" ?
18:14<MrBrrr>Went missing did it?
18:14<Eddi|zuHause3>yes, it had yearly running costs 3 times the build costs!
18:14<Sacro>well... true
18:14<Sacro>but for a 5 line diff
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18:15<Eddi|zuHause3>i think it grew way beyond 5 lines before i ever used it :p
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18:23<Eddi|zuHause3>capacity of single track lines heavily reduces without PBS :/
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18:28<svip>How does the last arg in DrawString() work?
18:29<svip>But it doesn't seem to give me the *right* colours.
18:30<svip>And why does it give some sort of shadow?
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18:30<Eddi|zuHause3>it's probably one of the named colours
18:31<Eddi|zuHause3>blue, red, etc.
18:31<Eddi|zuHause3>like in the company colour selection
18:31<svip>But I thought that palette image in the docs is the same as the colours there.
18:32<Eddi|zuHause3>looked in docs/ottd-colourtext-palette.png?
18:32<svip>That's what I just told you.
18:33<Eddi|zuHause3>and what exactly is wrong then?
18:33<svip>The colours are wrong.
18:33<svip>When I look at them.
18:35<+glx>screenshot maybe?
18:36<svip>Two seconds, glx.
18:36<svip>Also, I'm going to bed in a jeffy.
18:37<svip>The Bad and Dunno is okay.
18:37<svip>But there should be a Good text between Dunno and Bad in Light Blue.
18:37<svip>And the Can't Build should be red.
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18:38<Eddi|zuHause3>and the line that calls this stuff?
18:39<svip> DrawString(4+(i*35), 31, _outer_legends[i], GetColourByPosition(i));
18:39<+glx>bad looks weird for me
18:39<svip>Well... I am not pleased with that either.
18:40<+glx>_outer_legend is only used there?
18:40<svip>Also _inner_legends
18:40<svip>But that is for the stuff below.
18:40<svip>The call looks very similar.
18:40<svip>Well... _outer_legends is used one place else.
18:40<svip>ChangeZoningLegend(_zoning.outer, _outer_legends);
18:40<svip>Namely the function the gives them their names.
18:41<+glx>anyway that's not the problem :)
18:41<svip>Cause it worked when all word was black.
18:41<+glx>what is the code in GetColourByPosition?
18:42<+glx>max color is 0x10
18:43<+glx>lightblue is 13=0xD
18:43<svip>O_o There are only 16 colours?
18:44<svip>And what about the other colours?
18:44<Eddi|zuHause3>only the ones listed in the ottd-colourtext-palette.png are available for text
18:44<Eddi|zuHause3>and they have the indices printed in front of them
18:45<svip>But he just said there is only 16 colours.
18:45<svip>And that image lists 255 colours.
18:45<Eddi|zuHause3>no, it's a different picture!!
18:45<+glx>look at the file name
18:46<Eddi|zuHause3>also look in gfx.h around line 290
18:46<svip>Alright, alright.
18:46<Eddi|zuHause3>although that order seems different...
18:47<Eddi|zuHause3>and of course it is uncommented...
18:49<svip>And now.
18:49<svip>Good night!
18:50<Eddi|zuHause3>PS: the drawing on sloped road is weird
18:50<Eddi|zuHause3>either do all roads, or none
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18:50<Eddi|zuHause3>you can still build tram on sloped road
18:51<Eddi|zuHause3>or make roads a different colour...
18:51<+glx>you can use any color with IS_PALETTE_COLOR
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18:53<+glx>funny values in the enum in gfx.h are never used it seems
18:54<+glx>Eddi|zuHause3: and you're right, order is broken
18:55<+glx>hmm some are used
18:56<Eddi|zuHause3>they may mean something completely different...
18:56<+glx>yes looks like that
18:57<Eddi|zuHause3>possibly connected to this ominous "_colour_gradient" directly below
18:58<+glx>seems so
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---Logclosed Mon Sep 03 00:00:50 2007