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#openttd IRC Logs for 2007-09-04

---Logopened Tue Sep 04 00:00:24 2007
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06:07<dihedral>hello :-)
06:08<svip>A smilie with a nose.
06:08<svip>How... crazy!
06:10<dihedral>can breakdowns be made a little more realistic?
06:11<thingwath>how? :)
06:11<svip>Anything specific you want to modify?
06:11<svip>Changing the source code.
06:12<dihedral>i.e. specify in the config a percentage
06:12<dihedral>rather than specifying 'normal' or 'reduced'
06:13<dihedral>that would give game admins more controll
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06:13<svip>So I change in the patch settings window.
06:14<dihedral>in your config file :-)
06:14<svip>:/ Never seen this config file though.
06:15<thingwath>well, I expected another kind of realism, maybe :)
06:15<dihedral>yes, though it would be easiest if every admin could set a percentage on their own
06:16<dihedral>as 'realistic' for you may not be the same as for me or someone else
06:16<dihedral>i.e. some might want even more reduced breakdowns, as others
06:17<dihedral>so specifying a percentage could give everybody exactly that option
06:18<svip>dihedral: You mean e.g.
06:19<thingwath>but I wouldn't mind if breakdowns for trains would behave same as for planes
06:19<dihedral>diff_custom gets a 100 at position 10 = normal breakdowns
06:20<dihedral>diff_custom gets a 50 at position 10 = 50% of normal breakdowns
06:21<dihedral>or 2 patch options, breakdown_percentage and breakdown_increase
06:22<dihedral>and use the increase * age of vehicle for a percentage added to breakdown_percentage
06:22<SmatZ>thingwath: do you mean to slow-down trains after a breakdown? that would cause really bad jams :-x
06:22<thingwath>SmatZ: yes :) it would, but it would also be more realistic :)
06:22<dihedral>would not
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06:22<svip>But, SmatZ.
06:23<svip>Then days should actually be days.
06:23[~]dihedral slaps svip
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06:23<svip>What? O_o
06:23<dihedral>the current breakdown is way over the top
06:24<svip>It is because that days are so short.
06:24<N101>hello all.
06:24<svip>And they turn into heap of junk faster than you can eat a pie.
06:27<dihedral>+ it does not make sense that trains that breakdown in a station are unable to unload
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06:27<Rubidium>it models broken doors...
06:27<svip>I'll give you that.
06:28<dihedral>Rubidium: nice excuse :-)
06:28<SmatZ>dihedral: it can? to break-down when loading/unloading?
06:29<dihedral>never seen a train brocken down in a station SmatZ ?
06:29<SmatZ>dihedral: no... I do not play with breakdowns...
06:29<SmatZ>something strange I saw is that train that doesn't move cannot breakdown
06:29<dihedral>Rubidium: what then do you say to replaceing position 10 of diff_custom with a percentage for breakdowns?
06:30<dihedral>i.e. 100 = normal breakdowns
06:30<Rubidium>what is "normal"?
06:30<dihedral>SmatZ: a train that is 'stopped' cannot breakdown
06:30<Rubidium>then people want to be able to specify more breakdowns too
06:30<dihedral>Rubidium: 'normal' is the current setting for normal
06:31<SmatZ>dihedral: I mean while waiting on a semaphore ... one train breaks down, other trains are waiting, and none of them breaks down
06:31<dihedral>150% :-)
06:31<dihedral>limit the value for that setting to 200 :-)
06:31<dihedral>0 = no breakdowns
06:32<dihedral>i.e. simply a percentage and then people have more controll over the breakdowns
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06:33<svip>Is control really with two l's?
06:34<thingwath>no, but controll is ;)
06:34<svip>The difference?
06:34<thingwath>exactly one l
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06:39<dihedral>@seen Brianetta
06:39<@DorpsGek>dihedral: Brianetta was last seen in #openttd 1 week, 6 days, 11 hours, 45 minutes, and 59 seconds ago: <Brianetta>
06:39<dihedral>!seen Brianetta
06:39<_42_>dihedral, Brianetta ( was last seen quitting #openttdcoop 12 hours 33 minutes ago (03.09. 23:05) stating "Quit: Tschüß" after spending 4 hours 24 minutes there.
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06:43<Grey>More than one train in a tunnel D:
06:43<Grey>Fix eet!
06:44<svip>Grey: Or maybe you have signals in your tunnels.
06:44<Rubidium>when we had that feature a lot of people complained about it...
06:44<svip>Without knowing it. O_O
06:45<Grey>No, I wish I knew how to put signals in tunnels
06:45<Grey>I can't put more than one train in a tunnel
06:45<Grey>it takes forever for trains to clear though long tunnels
06:48<Rubidium>well, start coding it..., or use one of those revisions with the broken signal system for tunnels
06:48<Grey>Rubidium, D:
06:48<Grey>I can't code, damnit!
06:48<Rubidium>learn it
06:48<svip>Grey: Wait till I have the underground patch.
06:49<Grey>which will be when?
06:49<svip>Long time.
06:49<svip>Can't say.
06:49<svip>I have uni to attend to as well.
06:49<svip>And right now, I'm working on a different patch.
06:50<Rubidium>all those people working on non-important things...
06:51<thingwath>which things are important? :)
06:52<Grey>Everything that isn't ottd is unimportant!"
06:52<Grey>Code patches damnit!
06:52[~]Grey orders svip to be placed into a locked room with nothing but a computer and a caffine drip
06:52<svip>Can I have Squash soda instead?
06:53<svip>I work faster with that.
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06:53<Grey>Its a caffine drip.
06:53<Rubidium>as long as it goes intraveniously
06:53<Grey>Raw caffine.
06:53<Grey>You ain't gonna be tasting it
06:53<Rubidium>as long as it isn't liquid caffeine
06:53<Grey>Also: after 3 litres of Dr Pepper, it starts tasting like solvents
06:53<Grey>(I used to go on codeathons with a few bucks worth of Dr P
06:54<Grey>Except by code I mean PHP
06:54<Grey>which isn't really code
06:54<Grey>its sort of... brainfart... script
06:54<Grey>It just sort of... farts its way into existance
06:54<thingwath>it's turing complete, not enough? :o)
06:59<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r11040 /trunk/src/ (12 files in 2 dirs): -Fix [FS#1179]: removing CMD_AUTO from some commands could remotely trigger an assertion.
06:59<+glx>now you can see why FS#1179 was hidden :)
06:59<SmatZ>yes, I guessed that :)
07:01<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r11041 /trunk/src/industry_cmd.cpp: -Fix (r10460) [FS#1195]: the industry's owner was saved twice instead of the owner and the founder. Patch by frosch.
07:01<SmatZ>not because I knew about that ... but because we were debugging similiar problems before
07:06<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r11042 /trunk/src/ (newgrf_canal.cpp newgrf_house.cpp newgrf_industrytiles.cpp): -Fix [FS#1196]: so newgrf callbacks returned slightly wrong heights (height of nothern corner instead of height of lowest corner). Patch by frosch.
07:07<svip>Rubidium is on a hot-fixing-spree.
07:08<Rubidium>nah, the last two were the best kind of bugfix: one with solution (in patch file) attached ;)
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07:09[~]SmatZ reboots ... brb :)
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07:09<svip>I haven't rebooted in a while.
07:10<svip> 14:09:59 up 28 days, 22:51, 9 users, load average: 0.85, 0.44, 0.30
07:11<Rubidium>only my laptop "reboots" fairly often, and reboot means: shut down and take it for a long trip
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07:11<Rubidium>if it's short I just leave my laptop turned on (not standby or so ;)) and put it in my backpack ;)
07:12<+glx>and hdd supports it?
07:13<dihedral>spindown the hadd
07:13<svip>Supports what, glx?
07:13<Rubidium>the HDD usually spins down, yeah
07:13<Rubidium>unless I keep it compiling something
07:14<svip>:| Done that lots of times.
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07:14<Rubidium>it's especially usefull in the winter. A nicely warmed back :)
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07:15<svip>:) Ah, yes, Rubidium.
07:15<svip>I can so relate.
07:15<Rubidium>my other hardware usually only reboots with power outages
07:16<svip>:( Yeah, or when my parents bug me.
07:16<svip>o_o Or when I decide to compile a new kernel.
07:16<Rubidium>I just compile the new kernel and install it. Then it gets loaded on the next power outage
07:17<Rubidium>unless there is really a big bug in the kernel
07:17<svip>This bitch runs on 2.4.x
07:17<svip>o____o So upgrading might be a pretty good idea.
07:17<Rubidium>oh, that's a "new" kernel every year or so ;)
07:18<Rubidium>more like every half year it seems
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07:32<SmatZ>is there any way to remove HQ - different than building (Moving) it on a water-level and then let it flood?
07:35<SmatZ>Moving = "Relocate HQ"
07:36<N101>um, Whats "compile Kernal" mean?
07:36<Eddi|zuHause3>what it says...
07:37<Zavior>It literally compiles the kernel o_O
07:37<Eddi|zuHause3>well... you rarely see people compiling the windows kernel :p
07:37<SmatZ>N101: for 2.6 kernel, "cd /usr/src/linux && make menuconfig && make -j3 && cp arch/x86_64/boot/bzImage /boot/gentoo-2.6.22 && make modules_install"
07:38<N101>... thats helps a little.
07:38<dihedral>Eddi|zuHause3: one rarely sees people compiling the Mac OSX kernel as well
07:38<N101>i think i get it :P thanks to <Eddi|zuHause3>
07:40<@peter1138>but there's all the BSD kernels
07:40<thingwath>it could be some bsd
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07:41<thingwath>you almost have to compile kernel there
07:41<N101>wow. i really think i have to sleep now. everything is blury.
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07:42<N101|AWAY>ty for the answers btw.
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08:33<@Belugas>hello skidd13 :)
08:34<@TrueBrain>skiddels!!! :p
08:34<@TrueBrain>walking the street, looknig around, finding places to go to!
08:34<@TrueBrain>(am I annoying?)
08:35<@TrueBrain>39 minutes to install WinXP via VirtualBox.. not bad! As it takes 41 minutes to install it directly on this machine.. hmmm.. :p
08:35<@Belugas>no, it's fun to see some craziness now and then :D
08:35<@Belugas>but not too much!
08:35<skidd13>Belugas: Since you are assigned to the town growth cleanup. Did you checked the recent version of the patch
08:36<@Belugas>nope. the weekend (3 days) has been one of manual labour, intense one...
08:37<@Belugas>i will resume my duties soon, as i come back to my normal state ;)
08:38<skidd13>No problem. I just wanted to hear some comments ;)
08:39<@Belugas>i understand, don't worry :)
08:39<@Belugas>and i do appreciate your dedication
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08:41<dihedral>hello Belugas
08:42[~]dihedral also greets orudge and TrueBrain
08:42[~]Belugas returns the salute to dihedral
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08:44<dihedral>orudge: how much more bandwidth usage was there last month compared to the usual?
08:44<orudge>for tt-forums? or openttd?
08:44<dihedral>lets go for both - now that you mention it :-)
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08:44<orudge>one sec
08:44<orudge>shall check in a minute or ten
08:45<dihedral>i like the 'or ten' :-)
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08:48<orudge>tt-forums used 172GB last month, and the OpenTTD bandwidth stats seem to be incomplete.
08:50<dihedral>what was the difference compared to the month before?
08:50<dihedral>or let me put it this way
08:50<orudge>206GB the month before
08:51<dihedral>would it help if a part was mirrored
08:51<orudge>208GB the month before that
08:51<orudge>it actually seems to be going down at the moment
08:51<orudge>but then, it's summer and so on
08:51<@TrueBrain>orudge: also, phpbb3 is a bit more clever in bandwidth :)
08:51<orudge>as for mirroring... not really, the actual practicality of doing it isn't particularly easy
08:51<orudge>there's that too, TrueBrain ;)
08:52<dihedral>ottd had a fundraiser for covering the cost of bw right?
08:52<orudge>for bandwidth for OpenTTD, yes
08:52<orudge>not for tt-forums
08:52<@TrueBrain>and bandwidth isn't the real problem, relative cheap :)
08:52<dihedral>what is the real problem then?
08:52<@TrueBrain>hardware :)
08:53<dihedral>what you need?
08:53<@TrueBrain>currently it is covered for OpenTTD, tnx to the fundraiser :)
08:53<@TrueBrain>although sooner or later we do need a dedicated server
08:53<dihedral>currently - yes - but what do you need in terms of spec
08:53<@TrueBrain>why? :)
08:54<dihedral>and would like to help - though i have no money i could give
08:54<@TrueBrain>Anyway, for a dedicated server we need something like a AMD X2 4400
08:54<dihedral>so if morroring something would help - i would love to do that
08:55<@TrueBrain>we talked many times before about mirroring OpenTTD, but it is kind of hard, as we use pretty specific software and ways to take care of things..
08:55<orudge>well, with the forums, mirroring things isn't really all that practical
08:55<orudge>people have suggested it pretty much since day one
08:56<@TrueBrain>orudge: and they will continue doing so I guess ;)
08:56<orudge>If hardware was the problem, then we could run a separate server for mysql and for lighttpd, but it's not ;)
08:56<orudge>the hardware is coping very well now
08:56<@TrueBrain>you can say that, yes :)
08:57<dihedral>TrueBrain: whats with the archives?
08:57<@TrueBrain>dihedral: if we ever want OpenTTD to be mirrorable, we need VPS on the mirror
08:57<@TrueBrain>dihedral: we ran out of diskspace :)
08:57<dihedral>how much do you need?
08:57<@TrueBrain>the total archive is 40 GiB currently
08:57<@TrueBrain>growing faster every day ;)
08:58<dihedral>have no vps
08:58<dihedral>only have one colocated server
08:58<@TrueBrain>how ever much I appreciate it, OpenTTD just demands a bit more :(
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08:59<@TrueBrain>maybe I should rewrite most things so it isn't that demanding, software-wise :)
08:59<dihedral>if there is anything i could do - please let me know
08:59<@TrueBrain>will do, tnx :)
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08:59<dihedral>i do have permission to add another server to the colocation rack for free :-)
09:00<@TrueBrain>but I guess the server itself isn't free ;)
09:00<dihedral>well no
09:00<@TrueBrain>same problem here :)
09:00<dihedral>but i have to pay no bw
09:00<@TrueBrain>and on the current box you don't have, say, 80 GiB free? :p
09:00<dihedral>unless it gets to extravagant
09:00<dihedral>i can add another hdd if you want to
09:01<dihedral>happy to do that any time
09:01<@TrueBrain>which country is it located?
09:01<dihedral>the provider is toplink (
09:01<@TrueBrain>might be worth it for the archive, as it can consume a bit of bandwidth :p
09:01<dihedral>what's 'a bit' ? :-)
09:02<@TrueBrain>I don't really know, in fact :)
09:02<dihedral>well - if you want to find out - i would be happy to help
09:03<@TrueBrain>:) And I am still looking for an alternative to SF, for the main downloads.. as SF sucks
09:03<orudge>Well, SourceForge isn't that bad
09:03<+glx>just slow
09:03<@TrueBrain>but that I have to talk over with other devs ;) I have always more plans then I can execute ;)
09:03<@TrueBrain>hehehe :)
09:03<orudge>its mirror system is a lot better than it was
09:03<@TrueBrain>orudge: it is getting there, yes
09:03<alex__>orudge, you host the openttd box?
09:03<orudge>and considering they provide a lot of free bandwidth for nothing, it's not that bad
09:03<orudge>alex__: well, TrueBrain mainly
09:04<alex__>TrueBrain, where is it currently hosted?
09:04<@TrueBrain>but currently we have 3 offers for free (bandwidth-wise) hostings, so maybe we should also start using that ;) Oh well, I will make a draft or something :)
09:04<dihedral>in a galaxy far far away
09:04<@TrueBrain>alex__: in The Netherlands
09:04<@TrueBrain>Eweka Datacenter (more peerings than you can imagine :))
09:04<+glx>some services are in Hungary
09:04<dihedral>well - work is calling - going afk for some time
09:05<@TrueBrain>dihedral: I will come back to you :)
09:05<@TrueBrain>tnx anyway :)
09:05<dihedral>ya welcome :-)
09:05<alex__>TrueBrain, link? :)
09:05<@TrueBrain>alex__: it is hosted by ISeeR:
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09:07<@Belugas>skidd13, FS1161 are these incremental patches? or latest is the only one?
09:07<skidd13>Check only the lates
09:07<@Belugas>k. tx
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09:12<alex__>someone here run ?
09:13<alex__>does someone here admin/operate/run - ?
09:14<dihedral>does rubidium?
09:16<dihedral>sorry my mistake :-P
09:16<Phazorx>hmm... game crashes on start - how cai i redirect debug output to file, cuz console window closes right after crash and i can not see last line
09:17<+glx>Phazorx: <-- use that then run openttd > file 2>&1
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09:17<Phazorx>ahh... got it
09:17<Phazorx>didnt help much :(
09:18<@TrueBrain>alex__: I work there, yes
09:18<dihedral>saw that in the whois db TrueBrain
09:18<alex__>TrueBrain, how long have you been developing your CP for ? :)
09:18<dihedral>though thought i'd not mention it :-P
09:18<@TrueBrain>alex__: about... 3 years now?
09:19<dihedral>TrueBrain: that is the most minimalistic hosting company i have ever seen :-D
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09:20<@TrueBrain>dihedral: if a site is the representation of a company, yes
09:20<alex__>TrueBrain, seems to be taking a shilw
09:20<alex__>TrueBrain, you own the company?
09:20<dihedral>TrueBrain: what else do you do?
09:22<@TrueBrain>dihedral: sometimes there is no need for a website to get customers; even more: a simple website shows that the people working at a company are too busy to do their own website, and therefor have to be successful ;)
09:23<@TrueBrain>alex__: I work at that company
09:23<alex__>TrueBrain, cool, how long has the company been around for?
09:24<@TrueBrain>long enough :)
09:24<dihedral>Date registered: 05-11-2005
09:24<@TrueBrain>somehow I think dihedral is smarter than alex__ :)
09:25|-|AntB [~AntB-UK@] has joined #openttd
09:26<dihedral>because i know whois or because i make use of it?
09:26<@TrueBrain>mostly because I am joking :)
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09:27<Eddi|zuHause3>hm... something is fishy with the alpine climate... it shows a weird mixture of temperate and arctic foundations...
09:28<@TrueBrain>use deodrant :)
09:28<Eddi|zuHause3>i'm not sure if that actually helps :p
09:29<Eddi|zuHause3>the alpinew.grf comes with a custom trkfoundw.grf, but that one is totally incompatible
09:31<alex__>TrueBrain, how do you get customers if your website is shite? :D
09:31<Eddi|zuHause3>and the snowline is also weird, houses and roads seem to use a different threshold, so you often end up with snowy houses around snow-free roads
09:31<@TrueBrain>alex__: who needs a website?
09:31<orudge>alex__: I would presume word of mouth
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09:31<@TrueBrain>exactly what orudge says :)
09:32<orudge>My own host had lots and lots of customers before we had a decent web site up ;)
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09:33<@TrueBrain>VirtualBox truely is fast in emulating :)
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09:33<alex__>orudge, you admin/work for a hostin company too?
09:33|-|thingwath [] has joined #openttd
09:34|-|SquireJames [] has joined #openttd
09:34<dihedral> (though hosting and colocation aint mentioned at all)
09:34<SquireJames>Hello there
09:35<@TrueBrain>hi SquireJames
09:36<SquireJames>Just wondering, is there a more modern version of openttd that supports subsiduaries (rather than the clunky MinIN)
09:36<dihedral>i.e. nightlies
09:36<Eddi|zuHause3>you could check if it's in ChrisIN
09:36|-|Diabolic-Angel [] has joined #openttd
09:37[~]dihedral should start reading to the end of the line before answering...
09:37<alex__>orudge, part owner?
09:37<alex__>orudge, or just a worker?
09:37<SquireJames>I have ChrisIN, apparently its not
09:38<Eddi|zuHause3>then you have to search for an updated patch yourself, but you are probably out of luck
09:38<orudge>alex__: the former
09:38<SquireJames>bugger, ah well
09:38<SquireJames>I'll stick to ChrisIN then :)
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09:39<Eddi|zuHause3>well, the subsidiaries patch is probably in the forum... you can try to update it yourself :p
09:39<nzvip>Where is Bjarni?
09:39<SquireJames>i've tried that, im still learning this SVN thing
09:40<SquireJames>I have enough trouble with grfs! lol, well, as long as I use someone elses coding I appear to be alright
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09:41<@TrueBrain>alex__: and yes, you are surrounded by webhosters
09:42<alex__>im just starting up mine :)
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09:42<@TrueBrain>hehe, that explains :)
09:42<alex__>im in your internets, stealing your customers.
09:42|-|lolman [~lolman@adsl-87-102-80-216.karoo.KCOM.COM] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
09:42<alex__>i can haz a customer?
09:42<dihedral>alex__: i doubt you will be able to steal anybodys customers
09:43<@TrueBrain>depends on what you define as stealing :p
09:43<@TrueBrain>alex__: how come you start your own? And as: you as owner and only employee?
09:43<alex__>me + 3 other guys
09:43<alex__>because i wanna get rich,
09:43<@TrueBrain>haha, wrong branch
09:43<alex__>and you bastards charge too much
09:44<@TrueBrain>webhosting is crowded, prices are cut down to the minimum
09:44<@TrueBrain>so getting rich, will be really really hard
09:44<alex__>webhosting is a good base of operations...
09:44<@TrueBrain>and excuse me? We charge too much? Haha :)
09:44<alex__>ill branch out from there
09:44<@TrueBrain>Let me guess: you live in the USA :p
09:44<@TrueBrain>unexpected :) UK is one of the most expensive places for webhosting
09:44<orudge>define "too much"
09:44<alex__>thus i get a server in germany :)
09:45<orudge>I think zernebok's prices are pretty reasonable for shared hosting, for instance
09:45<orudge>a lot cheaper than a lot of places ;)
09:45<@TrueBrain>alex__: ah :p
09:45<alex__>orudge, for sure, your prices are good
09:45<alex__>im talking about
09:45<@TrueBrain>alex__: watch it!
09:46|-|SmatZ [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
09:46<@TrueBrain>but yeah, ISeeR isn't for small customers
09:46<alex__>all good fun, and yeah webhosting market is _flooded_
09:46|-|Frostregen [] has quit [Quit: und weg]
09:46<alex__>there is only 300 hosting companies in the UK suprisingly
09:46<@TrueBrain>anyway, good luck with your company :) I hope you manage!
09:47<@TrueBrain>as said: UK is expensive :)
09:47<alex__>cheers :D
09:47<@TrueBrain>if you ever need (non-free) wisdom, let us know :p
09:47<dihedral>alex__: i hope you are not trying to run of a 10Mbit link :-P
09:48<dihedral>with no fail-over
09:48<alex__>100mbit link 6 peers, unlimited data, with 5mbit fallover
09:48<@TrueBrain>wild guess: strato? :p
09:49<@TrueBrain>oh boy oh boy
09:49<dihedral>did not know strato was in the uk
09:49<dihedral>i know 1and1 is
09:49<@TrueBrain>the biggest ISP in germany, and he doesn't know it
09:49<dihedral>strato sucks
09:49<@TrueBrain>dihedral: strato isn't in uk, .de, .fr and .nl only currently I believe
09:49<alex__>TrueBrain, im from NZ oringinally, and no its not
09:49<dihedral>alex__ is in the uk though
09:49<dihedral>red kite radio link?
09:49<@TrueBrain>dihedral: it might be that they suck, but if our power (globally) fails, they can run 1 week !!! :p
09:50<dihedral>the cloude?
09:50<@TrueBrain>(they have for 1 week of diesel in their basement... crazy bastards)
09:50|-|Deathmaker [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
09:50<dihedral>1and1 can too
09:50<@TrueBrain>(the whole $@$@$@# gouvermant has all its stuff there...)
09:50|-|nairan_zzZZ changed nick to mcbane
09:50<thingwath>but the question is who would care about it ;)
09:51<@TrueBrain>thingwath: that I was wondering too, when I read the story :p
09:51<dihedral>if there aint power - nobody can visite :-D
09:51<@TrueBrain>everyone without a computer, but their servers keep on running!!!
09:51<dihedral>and all the routers are down too
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09:51<alex__>fuck one week of diesel
09:51<alex__>when the world blows up, go raid them asap
09:51<alex__>enough diesel for one person for a few years
09:52<dihedral>alex__: just as some side info: you cannot drink it
09:52<alex__>dihedral, sniffing.
09:52<thingwath>you can, but...
09:53<dihedral>alex__: who is your provider?
09:54<dihedral>and you are doing some reselling?
09:54|-|Diabolic-Angel [] has joined #openttd
09:54<alex__>probably not
09:55<alex__>resellers are annoying
09:56<dihedral>you got yourself a dedicated?
09:56<dihedral>and setup some vps?
09:56<alex__>yeah vps on the books
09:56<alex__>im looking at CP's for them now atm
09:56<alex__>you guys know any?
09:57<@TrueBrain>one of the reasons we never finished our own CP: Plesk :p
09:57<@TrueBrain>the other obvious ones: cPanel
09:57<dihedral>i dont like cpanel
09:57<@TrueBrain>me neither
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09:58<dihedral>plesk ok, but cpanel... no
09:58<@TrueBrain>glad we agree :)
09:59<dihedral>alex__: you did not go for this one did you "Jetzt Keypartner werden und verdienen !!"
10:01<dihedral>they dont even support imap...
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10:03<SmatZ_>dbg: [net] Missed frame for sync-test (2225300 / 2225301)
10:03<SmatZ_>dbg: [net] Missed frame for sync-test (2226300 / 2226301)
10:03<SmatZ_>and so on...
10:04<SmatZ_>may there be some reason why it is every x00/x01 th frame?
10:06<SmatZ_>not every, but when it happens, it is for x00/x01...
10:06<Rubidium>sync-test == checking random consistency between client and server
10:07<Eddi|zuHause3>SmatZ_: sync is only done every 100th frame
10:08<SmatZ_>ah, I though it is done every day
10:09<Eddi|zuHause3>SmatZ_: it's in the beginning of network.h
10:10<SquireJames>Heres a completely useless, yet fun idea for OpenTTD
10:10<SquireJames>Historical newspaper reports
10:11<SmatZ_>Eddi|zuHause3: thanks, I don't know why I though it is done every day
10:11<Eddi|zuHause3>there is not much sense in the network code being aware of the length of a day...
10:11<Rubidium>100 frames is about 1 day
10:12<SquireJames>For example, September 3rd 1939, a newspaper pops up telling us that Great Britain has entered the Second World War
10:12<alex__>hmm i dont like plesk or CP
10:12<alex__>simply because you have to pay
10:12<alex__>and they look shit anyways
10:13<@TrueBrain>"because you have to pay"
10:13<@TrueBrain>"they look shit" <- Plesk for sure doesn't look like shit
10:13<@TrueBrain>only the sun goes up for nothing
10:13<SquireJames>If you wanted to have a useful effect, maybe it could trigger some sort of economy change, an increase in coal, iron ore and oil production, reduction in passenger traffic
10:14<alex__>TrueBrain, can plesk manage hosting services such as shoutcast / xen ?
10:14<@TrueBrain>there are many plugins, google it :p
10:14<@TrueBrain>they do have their own VPS software
10:15<SquireJames>When newindustries is done, you could have cargoes such as Troops, Armaments, maybe even go as deep as evacuees once the passenger destinations code has been debugged.
10:16<dihedral>alex__: no offence - though i would personally suggest you get a job in that field before starting your own company
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10:16<Zaviori>Wut, passenger destinations?
10:16<SquireJames>Peacetime events would occur too naturally, something along the lines of the Wall Street Crash, the creation of the NHS (triggering more hospitals or something)
10:16<alex__>.. dihedral: no taken, and ive had 4 jobs in it
10:17<alex__>none *
10:17<alex__>5 years experience :)
10:17<dihedral>seems like you could do with more :-)
10:17<SquireJames>Just an idea to make OpenTTD more immersive :)
10:17<alex__>dihedral, now thats offensive,
10:17<alex__>dihedral, cya.
10:17<Zaviori>Is passenger destinations being developed for trunk?
10:17<SquireJames>I'm not sure, I hope it is eventually
10:17<dihedral>like i said - no offence
10:17<Eddi|zuHause3>SquireJames: go create a newgrf spec for it :)
10:18<dihedral>pride though aint a good basis
10:18<SquireJames>I could make triggered events through grfs?
10:18<alex__>i said plesk / cpanel isnt good, and that makes you think i dont have enough experience?
10:18<dihedral>"simply because you have to pay" makes me believe so :-P
10:19<dihedral>and it's not the 'experiance' i am wanting to aim for
10:19<alex__>well, im building my own CP :)
10:19<alex__>basing on some OS stuff
10:19<SquireJames>and until the newindustries switch has been finalised, the only difference between Armaments and Goods would be the trucks
10:19<alex__>cause the ones out there arnt really what i need
10:19<dihedral>but wanting something for free and having customers to make you rich...
10:19<orudge>Doesn't sound like the best basis to start a hosting company on, to be honest
10:20<SquireJames>which, I know UKRS does a good job of, but, i like have specific cargoes myself
10:20<orudge>I see many web hosts come and go, often with similar goals
10:20<orudge>they want to pay as little as possible
10:20<orudge>I assume you have a bit more sense than most, alex__ :)
10:20<alex__>thanks for picking me apart
10:20<alex__>im sure ill steal your customers.
10:21<dihedral>alex__: dont missunderstand
10:21<orudge>I was mainly just meaning things generally.
10:21<dihedral>nobody is trying to pick you apart
10:21<dihedral>just people speaking openly
10:21<Eddi|zuHause3><SquireJames> I could make triggered events through grfs? <- what i meant was: make grfs able to do that...
10:22<SquireJames>Oh, the grfs for the cargoes? I could I suppose
10:22<Eddi|zuHause3>no, i meant for the newspaper events...
10:22<SquireJames>oh i see
10:22<SquireJames>but i wouldn't be able to code in when they trigger yet though
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10:22<dihedral>alex__: i too have seen enough people trying to build up companies
10:23<SquireJames>the guys who know more C++ than me would have to be left to that :)
10:23<dihedral>but as soon as they tried to invest nothing and gain all - they failed
10:23<dihedral>SquireJames: with that oppinion you will never reach higher aims in developing anything
10:24<SquireJames>Hey, I'm a lowly greasemonkey, I know some C++ but not enough to code anything useful
10:24<SquireJames>I did make a bus tickets program at college though, which my tutors were pretty impressed with
10:24<@Belugas>SquireJames, if you really want to, you can achieve a lot.
10:24<alex__>dihedral, thats fine, building up this company will take time, and im not alone in this,
10:24<@Belugas>all you need is the drive
10:25<@Belugas>same goes for NFO...
10:25<SquireJames>I appreciate the sentiment, but regarding OpenTTD, developing a whole game or even part of is a bit much for me
10:25<dihedral>alex__: taking time and thinking things twice or more times through is a good thing :-)
10:25<alex__>dihedral, all im investing is time, not money at this stage, hence this is why i dont want to pay for cpanel (which is not what im looking for) and plesk (which pricing model sucks)
10:26<SquireJames>I make total conversions for other games, its just OpenTTD, in my experience the more flexible the code, the more complex it potentially is
10:26<dihedral>alex__: have a look at webmin and usermin and virtumin
10:26<SquireJames>like, Star Trek Armada II for example, we can't do much beyond the boundaries of the original progra,
10:26<SquireJames>We can still do alot of physics tweaks, new 3d models, so it looks and plays totally different
10:27<SquireJames>but we can't do anything along the lines of trams in OpenTTD, or new airports etc
10:27<SquireJames>But OpenTTD, you can do loads to, very flexible, but requires a little more knowledge to edit or you'll just bugger stuff up
10:29[~]Rubidium thinks adding trams is a waste of time
10:29<alex__>dihedral, ive used webmin for around 5months while developing some other things, but in the end, it isnt very good
10:29<alex__>dihedral, im using atm
10:29<SquireJames>and, regarding NFOs, i used to do alot, i've just, ahem, forgotten
10:29<alex__>dihedral, also webmin is outdated now with debian etch......
10:29<alex__>also webmin cant handle SOAP()
10:29<SquireJames>I made a "Leader" Locomotive once, highly useless of course as it was only a prototype and was notoriously unreliable
10:29<SquireJames>but still, it was an achievement for me
10:31<dihedral>Rubidium: trams are a waist of time, but they add flair
10:31|-|Osai [] has joined #openttd
10:31<SquireJames>and recently, something you'll laugh at as its so basic, but i altered the early Mk.II Coaches in UKRS so they were permenantly "Blood and Custard" Coloured
10:31<SquireJames>I tried to make them team colourable but the red team colour was too scarlet, not crimson enough
10:34<SquireJames>but still, a massive improvement from having bright red, tan, or dark green coaches :)
10:35<SquireJames>None of the existing company colours could make the coaches look like realistic BR coaches of the period ("crimson lake" or "blood and custards")
10:36|-|Diabolic1Angel [] has joined #openttd
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10:42<SquireJames>I wonder, does it make me a little too realism orientated when i have to have my coaches the exact right colour?
10:43<SquireJames>Anyways, enough of my ramblings, a sensible question for you :)
10:43<dihedral>it makes you a perfectionist
10:44|-|Frostregen [] has joined #openttd
10:45<SquireJames>:) Thanks
10:45<SquireJames>Is it possible, to alter what colours a player can have as a company colour?
10:46|-|Vikthor [] has joined #openttd
10:46<+glx>only 16 available colors
10:47<SquireJames>Well, all i want to do is re-add black, and possibly a maroon colour
10:47<SquireJames>i know they exist in the palette, so how do i go about doctoring the company colours
10:48<dihedral>perfectionist :-P
10:48<@peter1138>There is a NewGRF that changes mauve to black
10:49<SquireJames>Just so I can play from 1925 - 48 as the LMS, rather than LNER or SR all the time ;)
10:49<Ammler>Hi, we have the fallowing error on the coop server: "dbg: [net] send failed with error 104"
10:52|-|Digitalfox [] has joined #openttd
10:54<Rubidium>Ammler: that "connection reset by peer"
10:55<Rubidium>so it's somebody who lost his/her internet connection
10:55<Ammler>Rubidium: we have much desyncs
10:55<+glx>real desyncs?
10:55<+glx>or just disconnections?
10:56<Ammler>hmm, good question, not sure, autopilot says desyncs, but that could be wrong
10:56<SmatZ_>I get "Sync error detected"
10:57<Phazorx>it looks like it is same old renewing issue
10:57|-|ewanm89 [~ewanm89@] has joined #openttd
10:57<+glx>what rev?
10:57<Ammler>yesterday nightly
10:58<Phazorx>client says desync as well
10:58<Eddi|zuHause3>hm... i have a problem with terraforming... if i have a (rail-)foundation on the lower half of a steep slope, i cannot lower the highest edge...
10:58<@Belugas>Phazorx, would rather be "same old result", but surekly for another reason...
10:58<Eddi|zuHause3>which is different from the behaviour if i have a normal rail on the lower half of a half slope
10:58<Phazorx>Belugas: i was not aware that it was ever fixed - behavior has not changed in last few months
10:59<@Belugas>thus it is a new reason causing the problem...
10:59<Phazorx>hmm... possible
10:59<Phazorx>i can not even compile the damn rev now
10:59<ewanm89>As far as I know it could be related to this bug:
10:59<Phazorx>weird - it launches only if i enable-debug
11:01<+glx>ewanm89: no really useful info in this report
11:01<ewanm89>I know, and there isn't much usefull info we can give
11:02<ewanm89>I was pinging server simultaneously, and on desync ping hit 100ms when it was averaging 35ms.
11:02<Phazorx>hmm... mingw/gcc3.3.4 - ./configure && make succseeds, but game crashes on startup after loading all grfs acording to -d 5
11:03<+glx>giving a reason Phazorx?
11:03<Phazorx>./configure --enable-debug && make works fine
11:03<Phazorx>glx, not really log looks okay
11:03<ewanm89>Phazorx: Which kernel are you using?
11:04<Phazorx>ntoskrnl :)
11:04<Rubidium>Phazorx: maybe you have something like -O3 in the default CFLAGS
11:04<Phazorx>Rubidium: i have a lot of optimizations there
11:04<ewanm89>Phazorx: That could be the problem.
11:05<Phazorx>wasnt before this revision
11:05<Phazorx>and i use same flags for few months
11:05<Phazorx>since may
11:05<SmatZ_>Phazorx: I did --enable-debug=5 and I keep desyncing...
11:05<Phazorx>SmatZ_: when configuring? i can not even get network conenction whenever i use debug
11:05<ewanm89>SmatZ_: nightly is desyncing anyway.
11:06<Rubidium>well, nightlies shouldn't desync
11:06<Phazorx>grr... how do i show cflags
11:06<Phazorx>it's not in export
11:06<+glx>unless some recent changes broke it
11:06<Eddi|zuHause3>ewanm89: a lot of desync issues have been solved since 0.4.7
11:06<SmatZ_>Phazorx: yes ... I can connect
11:07<ewanm89>Eddi|zuHause3: I thought so
11:07<Rubidium>anyhow, need a way to reproduce the desync locally and quickly.
11:07<SmatZ_>may the desync cause some newgrf? like different newgrf order for different clients...
11:07<Rubidium>SmatZ_: that can't happen
11:07<SquireJames>real simple little problem here, how do i go up a directory in the command prompt?
11:07<Phazorx>-pipe -O2 -march=athlon-xp -ffast-math -fomit-frame-pointer -msse -mmmx -m3dnow -falign-functions=64
11:07<Ammler>ewanm89: thats true, you should be here a year ago...
11:07<ewanm89>SmatZ_: That's server controlled
11:07<SquireJames>i thought it was cd/ but it just keeps throwing me back to the same dir
11:07<Phazorx>tried compiling w/o it - still same
11:07<Eddi|zuHause3>SquireJames: cd ..
11:07<ewanm89>Ammler: I was, just not as much of a presense.
11:08<DaleStan>Desyncs rarely cause anything except that the user gets forcibly removed from the server. The generation of a newgrf because of a desync would be an extremely interesting feature.
11:08<SquireJames>thanks eddi
11:09<Ammler>ewanm89: well, its more than a year now...
11:09<SmatZ_>DaleStan: I meant that someone have different newgrf loaded, maybe in a different order, and when some callback is made, the serverside newgrf uses random(), while the client-side doesn't
11:10<Phazorx>glx: i can post -d 5somewhere
11:10<ewanm89>Ammler: I've been playing for years.
11:10<Phazorx>but it looks okay to me
11:10<Phazorx>last line - dbg: [sprite] LoadNewGRF: Currently 6197 sprites are loaded
11:10<+glx>well that's not an error
11:10<SmatZ_>I have like 5 "-d 5" outputs ... and one with RANDOM_DEBUG :)
11:10<Ammler>SmatZ_: shouldn't be possible anymore, they are checked with md5sum
11:10<SquireJames>grr, how do i get grfcodec to decode without converting characters?
11:11<DaleStan>Then you mean that "newgrfs cause desyncs", not "desyncs cause newgrf". In which case Rubidium's right. That can't happen.
11:11<Eddi|zuHause3>SmatZ_: no, the newgrf loading code ensures that the newgrfs are the same order...
11:11<SquireJames>i've tried -d[-t] but doesnt seem to work
11:11<Rubidium>uhm, the order of newgrfs can't cause desyncs
11:11<+glx>SmatZ_: you need 2 RANDOM_DEBUG, 1 server and 1 client
11:11<Rubidium>newgrfs themselfves (still) can
11:11<SmatZ_>glx I know ...
11:11<ewanm89>I'm hoping for desync now, as I'm running in gdb
11:11<Ammler>Rubidium: yes, but you can't load a different grf
11:12<SquireJames>oh, hang on, deleting the files and redecoding worked
11:12<Rubidium>ewanm89: debugging desyncs in gdb is useless
11:12<ewanm89>Rubidium: You never know, there could be a clue there.
11:12<Phazorx>glx: anything else i can do to "debug" the sisue here (not desyncs)
11:12<ewanm89>but it *should* be useless
11:13<Rubidium>the time a desync is discovered is (usually) several ticks after the cause of the desync.
11:13<Rubidium>several meaning up to more than a thousand (1000) ticks
11:13<ewanm89>So at least gdb will give a trace
11:14<Rubidium>that trace is useless
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11:14<Rubidium>it doesn't contain *any* information
11:15<Rubidium>as it will show main loop -> network loop -> process network packets -> check value of "my" random and the one in the packet
11:15<ewanm89>Rubidium: Correction, it *shouldn't* contain any information
11:16<ewanm89>Rubidium: This is where languages like ruby tell more
11:16<SquireJames>okay, now im confused, how do i find out the hex coe for certain colours
11:16|-||Jeroen| [] has joined #openttd
11:16<Rubidium>no, it is doesn't and not shouldn't
11:16<Rubidium>what more would ruby tell?
11:17<ewanm89>Rubidium: Ruby gives information on every call made
11:17<Eddi|zuHause3>SquireJames: in docs/ottd-colour-palette.gif you have the numbers
11:17<SquireJames>okeedokes, will try that
11:18<SquireJames>just trying to turn the orange player colour to maroon
11:18<Rubidium>ewanm89: it keeps enough state to get any useful information out of a call that has been made seconds ago?
11:18<Eddi|zuHause3>i will leave it as an excercise for the reader to convert them to hex :p
11:18<Rubidium>that must really use a lot of memory while debugging
11:19<ewanm89>Rubidium: No, it costantly logs
11:19<ewanm89>to console
11:19<ewanm89>Rubidium: How would you analyse this issue then?
11:20<Eddi|zuHause3>ewanm89: you get a definitvely reproduceable case
11:20<Rubidium>yes, that is the most important step
11:20<ewanm89>Eddi|zuHause3: To random
11:20<Rubidium>secondly, make it reproducable quickly
11:20<ewanm89>It's just random
11:21<Eddi|zuHause3>and compare game states at increasing detail level
11:21<ewanm89>It reproduces anyway.
11:21<ewanm89>With no seeming cause
11:21<+glx>the best is to have a savegame that will desync at given date
11:21<ewanm89>Um, might manage that
11:21<SquireJames>right well 128 (a mauve colour) is 80 in hex
11:21<+glx>and some autosave from before it
11:22<SquireJames>according to this converter (i can do it manually, but i hate doing it)
11:22<+glx>SquireJames: that's right
11:22<ewanm89>glx: But I can't do that locally, would require running it on another server.
11:23<SquireJames>but according to pikkabird i am looking for a string of hex like this "04, 05, 06, 07, 08, 09, 0A, 0B"
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11:23<+glx>ewanm89: you can run both on the same machine
11:23<ewanm89>glx: Yes, but simmilar conditions would be a good idea.
11:23<SquireJames>so i am sort of confused as to the conversion, i simply want to tell the nfo to make OpenTTD change the orange company colour to maroon
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11:24<Eddi|zuHause3>ewanm89: the architecture and network structure have hardly ever anything to do with desyncs
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11:25<@peter1138>SquireJames: you have to map it replace a complete colour remap table
11:25<Eddi|zuHause3>only exception is endian issues
11:25<ewanm89>Eddi|zuHause3: In this case it might.
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11:26<SquireJames>well, how do i go about doing that :S
11:27<+glx>a color remap is a 257 bytes long sprite starting with 00
11:27<Eddi|zuHause3>you probably read the newgrf tutorial about sprite replacing, and then find the sprite number of the colour remap for your company colour
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11:29<@peter1138>and borrow pikka's mauve to black :)
11:29<SquireJames>i've been reading the bloody tutorials, and i've tried to reverse engineer pikkas mauve to black
11:29<SquireJames>i dont understand how the hex number 80 (128 Mauve) is turned into that string of hex numbers
11:29<+glx>search for a 257 bytes long sprite staring with 00
11:31<SquireJames>the whole nfo file of pikkas mauve to black is composed of 280 seperate blocks of 257 beginning with 00
11:31<+glx>do they have an action A before them ?
11:32<@peter1138>yes it is
11:32<SquireJames>How would i tell?
11:32<@peter1138>colour remaps are ... basic
11:33<@peter1138>first you tell it that mauve is black
11:33<SquireJames>for you yes, for me its hard
11:33<SquireJames>i'm trying to tell it orange is maroon, but these numbers make no sense
11:33<@peter1138>basic does not mean simple
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11:40<SquireJames>and now i cant even get pikkas file to work
11:40<SquireJames>doesnt appear in the newgrf list
11:41<+glx>what is the grfid?
11:42<SquireJames>which line is it on?
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11:42<+glx>xxx * xxx 08 ...
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11:43<SquireJames>umm, seems rather long for an id but
11:43<SquireJames>08 06 44 44 23 02 4E 65 77 20 43 6F 6D 70 61 6E 79 20 43 6F 6C 6F 75 72 73 20 28 42 6C 61 63 6B
11:43<SquireJames> 29 00 46 6F 72 20 57 69 6E 64 6F 77 73 20 6F 6E 6C 79 2E 20 20 42 79 20 50 69 6B 6B 61 42 69 72
11:43<SquireJames> 64 2E 00
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11:49<SquireJames>well, never mind, bugger it, on to better things
11:49<SquireJames>what does a blue box in the newgrf manager mean
11:51<Rubidium>added to the list but not (yet) loaded in the current game (I think)
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12:07<ln->do we have joystick support?
12:07<@TrueBrain>if it emulates a mouse, yes
12:08<@Bjarni>why would you want to use a joystick?
12:09<@TrueBrain>why would you want to use OSX?
12:09<@TrueBrain>just because he wants to!
12:09<@TrueBrain>who cares his reasoning! Just make the code to support it :)
12:09<@Bjarni>you don't get it
12:09<Wolf01>who wants transparent widgets?
12:09<@TrueBrain>Wolf01: I like what you did with that ;)
12:09<@Bjarni>whenever ln- gets an idea for something, he ends up wanting me to code it :(
12:10<@TrueBrain>and you don't do it, so what is the problem?
12:10<@TrueBrain>last time he did the env-language himself
12:10<@Bjarni>he will keep nagging me
12:10<Sionide>we have transparent widgets?
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12:12<@TrueBrain>WMP11 causes WindowsXP to crash in my emulator
12:12<ln->we have support for changing colors of individual wagons and vehicles, which is IMHO 78.4% more useless than joystick support.
12:12<@TrueBrain>I like the number :)
12:13<ln->though i didn't ask because of that, but kind of wanted to bring up a discussion of whether one could do something useful with a joystick in the game.
12:13<@Bjarni>it's eyecandy and not useless
12:13<@Bjarni>but I still fail to see what joystick support would actually do
12:14<ln->it could be e.g. used for panning around the world, zooming in and out
12:15<ln->or flying the planes
12:15<Sionide>what about disabled players, who can't use a mouse cos their hands are...n't working properly...?
12:16<@Bjarni>what about blind people, who can't watch the screen?
12:16<Sionide>accessibility ottd!
12:17<@Bjarni>and what about deaf people?
12:17<Prof_Frink>ln-: Joystick support + PS3linux -> Hi Def openTTD
12:17<Prof_Frink>Bjarni: They can turn the sound off.
12:17<@Bjarni>but if they are blind as well...
12:18<Prof_Frink>We go back to openttd: the text-based adventure
12:18<Prof_Frink>On a braille thingumabob
12:18<@Bjarni>then what about people with dyslexia?
12:18<Prof_Frink>fcuk 'em.
12:19<@Bjarni>are there female gamers with dyslexia within reach?
12:19<Tefad>what about blind/deaf people with dyslexia?!
12:19<Tefad>or is it lexdysia
12:20<@Bjarni>Tefad: are you dyslexic?
12:20<Tefad>but i know two people who are
12:20<Tefad>they can't spell for shit
12:20<@Bjarni>mixing up words could be a sign of dyslexia
12:20<Tefad>(i was joking above)
12:21<Tefad>i tend to think i generally have 80% or so correct grammar/spelling
12:22<Tefad>for some people this is nearly unobtainable
12:23<Tefad>hai2u c2c? asl
12:23<@Bjarni>well... about all the disabled player issue... I don't think we should make huge changes and possibly ruin the gameplay to enable certain few people to be able to play... if we break gameplay to do this, they wouldn't even start playing ;)
12:23<Tefad>for joystick all you need to do is redo the mouse input to allow for it
12:23<Sionide>shouldn't joystick support as such be handled by the OS anyway?
12:24<@Bjarni>Tefad: a day older than yesterday/same as yesterday/in front of the computer
12:24<Tefad>har har.
12:24<@Bjarni>if you want good answers, then stop asking stupid questions :P
12:24<Tefad>perhaps you weren't paying attention to context
12:24<Sionide>i usually reply 15/f/uck/off to asl.. heh
12:24<Tefad>or you're just being an ass : D
12:24[~]Sionide ducks
12:24<@Bjarni>you sound like an AOL user >_<
12:25<Tefad>read the lines of my output previous to the aolspeak
12:26<Tefad>"some people" can be read as "aol users" though now it seems to be more along the lines of myspace-tards
12:26<Tefad>since aol is all but dead as an online provider
12:27<Sacro>yeah, adding joystick support should be quite easy with SDL
12:27<@Bjarni>American Offline is dead?
12:28<Sacro>keep americans offline
12:28<Sacro>and the danish
12:28<Tefad>quite a bit of america is broadband enabled now
12:28<Sacro>though they do make good bacon
12:28<Tefad>and only the dumbest of the dumb would still pay for a walled garden on top of an existing internet connection.
12:29<Tefad>especially when most of the aol features are now free i think
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12:45<dihedral>just spoted a production at 16k Tonnes :-)
12:46<mcbane>hmm tranparency for industry dont work for steelworks..
12:46<mcbane>it get only partially transparent
12:47<Rubidium>it does work
12:47<Rubidium>only thing is that most of the steelwork's graphics are "normal" ground sprites
12:47<Rubidium>and ground sprites can't be made transparant as that is going to get ver very glitchy
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12:59<Eddi|zuHause3>a propos transparency
12:59<Eddi|zuHause3>the snow on the roofs in alpine climate does not get transparent...
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13:11<Wolf01>nice, should i fix it?
13:13<Eddi|zuHause3>i'm not sure if alpinew.grf even loads in nightlies
13:13<Eddi|zuHause3>(requires newindustries)
13:15<Wolf01>when Belugas will finish newindustries i'll fix some things related to newhouses, like the missing transparencies and i'll add support for invisible houses, since is pretty impossible to see well what happens in the city roads, is really difficult to see if there is a tram trak or not
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13:20<Eddi|zuHause3>well, you actually might get away with just setting the newindustries flag :)
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13:25<@Belugas>no you can't.
13:25<@Belugas>it will be the straight line to crashes
13:26<@Belugas>there is a little more than just that flag to raise
13:26<Eddi|zuHause3>well, fine :)
13:27<Eddi|zuHause3>did you actually find the reason for the wrong cargos?
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13:30<@Belugas>to be honest, it'seen a while I have not worked on it, REAL LIFE has quite a big hold on me, currently :(
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13:34<SquireJames>i think another thing OpenTTD needs is some sort of support for station capacity
13:35<SquireJames>to stop 2 and half thousand people flooding my tram stops
13:35<SquireJames>Railway Stations, Docks, Airports are fine as they are
13:35<SquireJames>but there should be some form of limit on Bus and Tram Stations
13:35<Wolf01>more little is the station, less are the passengers it can store
13:36<Rubidium>you should've move trams running at the station ;)
13:36<@Belugas>and if you reach that limit, see you town rating lowering
13:36<Wolf01>i vote for 255 passengers per tile
13:37<Eddi|zuHause3>ever seen 255 people on a tram station?!?
13:37<Sionide>"more little is the station, less are the passengers it can store" i love your english phrasing Wolf01 :)
13:37<Sionide>meh i don't like having 4k people at a difficult to get into and out of train station though
13:38<SquireJames>perhaps a slider you can set yourself
13:38<SquireJames>"store this many" and then the cargo
13:38<Sionide>in game ?
13:38<Sionide>or as a difficulty setting...?
13:38<Sionide>or custom patch
13:38<Sionide>hmm dunno about in game
13:38<Sionide>that would be sort of cheating cos you could store 1 pax till you've set everything up
13:39<Prof_Frink>Would want to be an extension to NewStations
13:39<SquireJames>so you click the station, and you can choose via a slider to say, let only 50 tons of coal wait at the station
13:39<Sionide>when the idea is supposed to be, to cater for the demand!
13:39<Eddi|zuHause3>i'd rather see a low number like 50 per platform tile, and then increase stuff like +500 for a small passenger hall
13:39<Prof_Frink>Each square can hold a number of units of each/any cargo, depending on what it is.
13:39<Eddi|zuHause3>or +4000 cargo for a big warehouse
13:39<Sionide>that'd be good
13:39<Wolf01>SquireJames, and if a station can collect all the cargos? you have 15 sliders?
13:39<SquireJames>well, yes
13:40<SquireJames>complex yes but
13:40<Rubidium>only 15?
13:40<Rubidium>32-ish with newcargos
13:40<SquireJames>but really, who has a station that can do everything?
13:40<Wolf01>me too
13:40<SquireJames>i try to group the goods producing industries together
13:40<Wolf01>my dock can do everything :P
13:40<Eddi|zuHause3>station spread is 64, you can do lots of things :p
13:40<Prof_Frink>Wolf01: Are you *sure* that's not a typo?
13:41<SquireJames>and try to group steel mills and power stations
13:41<SquireJames>but i try to avoid having too many things clustered around one station
13:41<Wolf01>oh sorry, i meant a di... eeek what are you trying to make me to write?
13:42<Prof_Frink>Either s/d/c/ or s/o/i/. Doesn't matter which.
13:42<Wolf01>the letters are near
13:42<@Belugas>would be better for each station, i think
13:43<Wolf01>a d**k?
13:44<Prof_Frink>Cargo-per-tile could encourage the construction of more realistic stations by nerfing the capacity of tiles with rails in
13:44[~]Prof_Frink goes to invegistate food
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13:45[~]Sionide also considers food
13:45[~]Sionide decides against it
13:46<Rubidium>Prof_Frink: an investigation in food for vegitarians?
13:51<Wolf01>does anybody have an idea to make my bitch of gui working by clicking on a tile too open it and center it on that tile?
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13:52<Eddi|zuHause3>you mean like a context menu, positioning next to the mouse cursor?
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13:53<Wolf01>a sort of
13:54<Wolf01>is to simplify the gui for the windows mobile built, where there's not so many space for the gui
13:54<Wolf01>so, if i want to build something on a tile, i press for 1 second on that tile and the gui with the construction toolbars popup
13:55<Wolf01>around the mouse
13:55<Eddi|zuHause3>so what is the problem? spawn it somewhere (fixed?) and then move it to the mouse position before drawing it the first time
13:56<Wolf01>something like this:
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13:58<Wolf01>i have 8 widgets (the central is transparent, so i can see under it), and to select the tool, i drag the pen to the widget and release it
13:58<Wolf01>this mean that if i release the pen in a point which is not a widget, the gui should close
13:59<Eddi|zuHause3>why dragging? why not clicking on it like any normal button?
14:00<Wolf01>because is like a gesture, is way too easy to press for 1 second, drag to the place and release, instead of click somewhere and click someotherwhere
14:00<Eddi|zuHause3>so, on mouse button up you want to close the window... that should not be too problematic either?
14:00<Eddi|zuHause3>i never understood gestures...
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14:01<Wolf01>do you have firefox?
14:01<Eddi|zuHause3>i don't use it... but KDE has a similar feature
14:02<Wolf01>try all-in-one gestures, it makes really funny and quick to navigate, i sometimes try to use it on windows
14:02<Wolf01>especially to close windows and browse theirs history
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14:07<skidd13>hi again
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14:11[~]dasy2k1 looks around
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14:15[~]Wolf01 looks at dasy2k1
14:16<Prof_Frink>Vegetarians that eat cow, maybe
14:19<Rubidium>dasy2k1: he's replying at something said when your IRC client was not connected
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14:22<dasy2k1>oh ok,
14:22<Rubidium>Ammler: at which version did the desyncs start?
14:26<SmatZ>Rubidium: previous revision used was 10996
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14:26<Rubidium>that's quite a few revisions :(
14:27<SmatZ>better is to find bug in 40 revisions than in 300 revisions, isn't it?
14:28<@Bjarni>better: unknown. Easier: YES
14:28<@Bjarni>but 40 revisions can still be a lot
14:29<Prof_Frink>Depends how many were to branches
14:29<@Bjarni>good point
14:29<Prof_Frink>40 revisions might be 1 revision.
14:29<SmatZ>but there were some changes - in this game are breakdowns on and a different set newgrfs is used (trains were only standard maglevs)
14:30<@Bjarni>however I'm not under the impression that the branches are very active right onw
14:30<SmatZ>~38 updates to trunk...
14:31<SmatZ>ah, only ~33
14:31<SmatZ>to 11039
14:31<SmatZ>anyway, almost all of them
14:32<@Bjarni>note to self: when generating a diff of what happened in more than 100 revisions, make sure to specify that you only want that particular file, not all files
14:33<@Bjarni>that diff became a bit too big >_<
14:33<Rubidium>Bjarni: why would you need to make that diff?
14:34<@Bjarni>I want to know why a certain line is gone in autoreplace_cmd.cpp and it was present in 10039. Basically it looks like some functionality is changed and I want to figure out why
14:35<@Bjarni>learning where the line was compared to the current code could help to explain
14:35<@Bjarni>it would at least be a start
14:35<@Bjarni>somebody changed int32 to CommandCost :P
14:36|-|ewanm89 changed nick to Cap_J_L_Picard
14:36<@Bjarni>captain on the bridge
14:37<@Bjarni>but not on his ship :P
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14:43<Sacro>how do i time make -j2?
14:43<SmatZ>time make -j2
14:43<Sacro>no brackets
14:43<Sacro>interesting idea
14:49<Sacro>SmatZ: i don't think the -j2 flags got used :(
14:49[~]Sacro can't remember what real/user/sys meanjs
14:50<SmatZ>does the Makefile support parallel make?
14:50<SmatZ>ah :)
14:50[~]Sacro tries make -j1
14:50<SmatZ>if you want faster OTTD compiling, use ccache :)
14:50<Sacro>make -j9
14:50<Sacro>or make -j0
14:51<SmatZ>-j0 doesnt work :()
14:51<Prof_Frink>make -iusegentoo
14:51<Prof_Frink>My computer took over a minute to install gentoo...
14:52<Prof_Frink>I need to get a new one.
14:52<SmatZ> <-- my CFLAGS
14:52<SmatZ>it took around week on my older computer...
14:52<Sacro>real is how long it *actually* took
14:53<Sacro>user is how much time it would have taken on 1 core
14:53<Sacro>and sys...
14:53<Sacro>means bugger all
14:53<Prof_Frink>Sacro: It's a typo.
14:53<Prof_Frink>It means how long it would have taken your sister to do it.
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14:58<Eddi|zuHause3>sys means what part was spent in kernel code
14:58<CIA-1>OpenTTD: bjarni * r11043 /trunk/src/autoreplace_cmd.cpp: -Fix (r10039) [FS#1185]: Autorenew/autoreplace fails silently with multiple multi-headed engines
14:59<Eddi|zuHause3>i miss ctrl+z
14:59<Eddi|zuHause3>err, ctrl+d
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15:07<@Bjarni>are you sure?
15:07<@Bjarni>I think it should be a bit more to the left
15:13<Wolf01>mmmh, System.IO.Path.GetDirectoryName( System.Reflection.Assembly.GetExecutingAssembly().GetName().CodeBase) to get the current directoy on windows mobile... really nice and easy to remember
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15:16<Eddi|zuHause3>reflection? very ugly...
15:16<Eddi|zuHause3>but that is the binary dir rather than the working dir?
15:17<Wolf01>ah, i don't know, was a challenge of my friend
15:17<Wolf01>he wanted to find the working dir
15:17<Wolf01>because MS wrote that is impossible on winCE
15:18<Wolf01>or at least, it is, but not supported from .NET
15:20<skidd13>good night
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15:21<Zr40>Wolf01: Directory.GetCurrentDirectory() ?
15:21<Wolf01>oh, is that which is not implemented
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15:22<Zr40>oh, winCE.
15:23<Zr40>it says some mobile OSes don't have the concept of current directories
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15:25<Zr40>Wolf01: about your reflection solution, isn't Assembly.GetExecutingAssembly().Location easier?
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15:28<Wolf01> -_-
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15:44<dasy2k1>microsoft combined the best of windows CE, windows ME and windows NT
15:44<dasy2k1>windows CEMENT
15:46<ln->not funny
15:46<Wolf01>do you work at MS? if so, i have some nice things to tell you :D
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15:49<Wolf01>nooo, you closed the fundraiser, and my card will come the next week :/
15:51<+glx>Wolf01: you still can donate
15:51<Wolf01>i know, and i'll do :D
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15:51<Wolf01>but i liked to donate for the fundraiser
15:52<@Belugas>s start a new found raising campaign to get a portable to all the devs travaling in bus or in train
15:52<@Belugas>to get to school or work!
15:53<@Belugas>like me, just going home like right now
15:53<@Belugas>bye bye all
15:53<Wolf01>bye :)
15:53<Wolf01>i'll donate 20€ but i want to see a pocket pc official build :D
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15:57<dasy2k1>@Wolf01 I dont work at MS, i dont even have 1 peoice of MS software on my machine
15:57<Wolf01>it was referred to the guy which said that is not funny :P
16:00<dasy2k1>lol ok
16:00<dasy2k1>he seemed like a MS lackey
16:03<@Bjarni><Belugas> s start a new found raising campaign to get a portable to all the devs travaling in bus or in train <--- interesting idea
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16:04[~]Prof_Frink throws a portable running ioenttd at Bjarni
16:04<@Bjarni>wtf is an ioenttd?
16:04<Prof_Frink>I'm not sure
16:04<@Bjarni>is it too heavy to lift?
16:05<Prof_Frink>Unfortinately, it's b0rked atm, so I can't find out
16:05<+glx>broken right hand
16:05<Prof_Frink>Need to reflash really, and lack a CF card
16:05<@Bjarni>you broke your hand?
16:05<@Bjarni>that's too bad
16:05<@Bjarni>then you lost your double date ability :P
16:06[~]dasy2k1 draws smiley on GLX's plaster cast
16:07<+glx>well I was replying to <@Bjarni> wtf is an ioenttd?
16:07<dasy2k1>oh lol
16:08<dasy2k1>I wish there was a UK tram set
16:08<@Bjarni>make one
16:08<dasy2k1>im no good at that sort of thing
16:08<Prof_Frink>Or kidnap Pikka and force him to make one
16:08<Eddi|zuHause3>err... there is one, or not?
16:09<dasy2k1>cant find one
16:09<dasy2k1>only the trains
16:09<dasy2k1>and busses
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16:12<dasy2k1>if anyone knows of one i would like a link
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16:13<@Bjarni>do Britain have trams today?
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16:18<alex___>Bjarni: yes
16:21<@Bjarni>that's me
16:21<@Bjarni>I guess
16:21[~]Bjarni detects signs of lack of sleep
16:21<@Bjarni>either that or failure to multitask properly
16:25<@peter1138>not do
16:26<@Bjarni>that's it
16:26<@Bjarni>(before I screw up again)
16:26<@peter1138>(and no, does (duz) does not sound like DOS (doss))
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17:31<SquireJames>heres a question
17:31<SquireJames>i know about the percentages to show loading when a train is loading or unloading cargo
17:32<SquireJames>but some of my stations, or possibly lines have them permenantly above them with a /\ or \/ icon next to it
17:32<SquireJames>i thought it might be service status, but the numbers dont match
17:42<Eddi|zuHause3>screenshot? savegame?
17:42<SquireJames>i have a screenie
17:42<SquireJames>ChrisIn r10982
17:43<Eddi|zuHause3>unless you can reproduce it in trunk, there is not much we can do about it
17:44<SquireJames>well, its not a bug as such, it has no harmful effect
17:44<SquireJames>i just wondered if anyone knew what they meant
17:45<+glx>loading/unloading IIRC
17:45<SquireJames>but, theres no trains at the platforms, and unlike trains they have a /\ a \/ or both next to it
17:46<+glx>the train is probably gone in depot
17:46<+glx>while loading/unloading
17:46<SquireJames>aye, could be, well anyways as i said, it does no harm :)
17:47<Eddi|zuHause3>is it normal that the incoming train chooses the used platform over the free one?
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17:48<+glx>"color" line I guess
17:49<Eddi|zuHause3>hm yeah, but that totally defeats the purpose of presignals...
17:51<SquireJames>are we talking about my screenie or just "in general"
17:51<+glx>your screenshot
17:51<Eddi|zuHause3>the train on the far left in your screenshot
17:52<SquireJames>the one snaking into St.George?
17:52<Eddi|zuHause3>oh, it's two half platforms
17:52<Eddi|zuHause3>not one continuous
17:53<SquireJames>I did it deliberately for my Suburban passenger trains
17:53<SquireJames>not sure how efficient it is, but i prefer things to look real rather than these weird junction layouts
17:53<+glx>oh right I missed the non rail tiles
17:53<Eddi|zuHause3>but the style of your junctions (lower right) needs serious improvement...
17:54<SquireJames>I know, i've tried many
17:54<SquireJames>but i can't get one that works right
17:55<SquireJames>basically to give you an idea whats happening
17:55<SquireJames>the white route trains are coal trains from Dunditch Colliery to the north east
17:56<SquireJames>and a single, large coal train that passes through St.Georges from a colliery some miles away
17:56<SquireJames>the pink route trains are the 2-6-4T hauled suburbans
17:57<SquireJames>the gold route trains are the two 4-6-2 Merchant Navy hauled expresses
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17:57<SquireJames>one of which goes from St.George down the south east line, the other from Dunditch down the south east line
17:58<SquireJames>the blue route trains are steel trains from the south west, heading to a large factory complex to the south east
17:59<SquireJames>the red route trains are goods trains from the factory complex to dunditch
18:00<SquireJames>so the only routes that junction doesnt need to cater for are trains from the north east to the north west or vice versa
18:01<SquireJames>so, any suggestions?
18:03<SquireJames>(if you need a clearer screenie, just ask :)
18:05<Eddi|zuHause3>SquireJames: like i said, try to reproduce it in trunk, or report it to Chris82
18:06<SquireJames>well, i meant the junction
18:11<Eddi|zuHause3>well, there are pages on junction construction on the wiki... such a basic raster can never work efficiently without PBS
18:13<Eddi|zuHause3>and even PBS junctions can be made look nice :)
18:13<SquireJames>but most of the solutions require bridges and such
18:14<Eddi|zuHause3>i have done quite some funny flat non-PBS junctions ;)
18:14<Eddi|zuHause3>although i do not have a screenshot of those...
18:14<SquireJames>what would you personally suggest?
18:15<SquireJames>I usually try and use a large X pattern
18:15<Eddi|zuHause3>anything where you can put in lots of signals, to reduce the number of blocking paths
18:17<SquireJames>well im not sure i can fit any such junctions in that space
18:17<Eddi|zuHause3>i only find screenshots of PBS junctions...,%2014.%20Aug%201923.png
18:19<SquireJames>well with PBS my big X junctions work quite well
18:20<Eddi|zuHause3>yeah, but you don't have PBS...
18:22<Eddi|zuHause3>other side of the hills:,%201.%20Sep%201924.png
18:24<Eddi|zuHause3>and the biggest junction of that (early) game:,%2020.%20Okt%201925.png
18:24<Eddi|zuHause3>note: BR 38 in double traction are damn expensive :p
18:25<SquireJames>my Big X junctions look alot like those :) minus the clever tunnels and bridges
18:26<Eddi|zuHause3>well, yes, there is still a lot of X style in there, but the unused track sections are heavily reduced
18:26<Eddi|zuHause3>also, the "X sections" are only entered from 2 sides, not 4
18:27<Eddi|zuHause3>another also, tracks are ordered LRLR, not LLRR
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18:28<Eddi|zuHause3>which might reduce the number of conflicting routes, but especially is more realistic :)
18:30<Eddi|zuHause3>i don't even know the axle scheme of the BR 38... looks like 1C1 or something
18:32<Eddi|zuHause3>wheel arrangement: 2'C
18:33<SquireJames>theres a model i've found on ebay, its a 4-6-0
18:33<Eddi|zuHause3>yeah, that's what 2'C says :)
18:34<Eddi|zuHause3>2: undriven axles, ': loose mounting (turnable), C: driven axles
18:35<+glx>C == 3
18:35<Eddi|zuHause3>usual modern engines have axle scheme of Bo'Bo'
18:36<Eddi|zuHause3>where o means each axle is driven independently
18:36<Eddi|zuHause3>big engines have sometimes Co'Co'
18:36<Rubidium>why is everybody bragging about their compile times?
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18:37<Eddi|zuHause3>some mallet steam engines have axle schemes like (2'C)'(C2)
18:37<SquireJames>i'm aware of the Bo-Bos, Co-Cos etc, but not these 2'C and so forth
18:38<Eddi|zuHause3>they are "articulated" steam engines
18:38<+glx>Rubidium: for the fun?
18:40<Eddi|zuHause3>in america, mallet engines are big monsters, in europe usually narrow gauge engines for sharp turns
18:41<Eddi|zuHause3>this one would be a (1'D)'(D1)
18:41<Eddi|zuHause3>or this one: is a B'B
18:42[~]Rubidium wonders how fast I can do it at 600 MHz ;)
18:43<SquireJames>I don't think we had any Mallets in Britain
18:43<SquireJames>a Beyer-Garrett or two but
18:44<Eddi|zuHause3>americans even built "triplex" engines: (1'D)'D+D1'
18:44<SquireJames>ah i've heard of those
18:46[~]ThePenguin is trying to compile ottd
18:46<ThePenguin>What is dmksctrl.h?
18:46<Eddi|zuHause3>probably a file from the directx sdk?
18:46<ThePenguin>I have the Directx 10.1 SDK and Windows SDK is that ok?
18:46<+glx>would be easier if you tell us what is your compiler
18:47<ThePenguin>Visual C++ 2008 Beta 2 Express Edition
18:47<SquireJames>my new junction Eddi
18:47<+glx>ThePenguin: check the paths
18:47<ThePenguin>ok I'll try that
18:50<Eddi|zuHause3>hm... the 4 tracks to the coal station look superfluous... tried to reduce those to 2?
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18:50<Eddi|zuHause3>also, 2 way section on the left is probably a bad idea
18:51<Eddi|zuHause3>that is virtually crying to get blocked
18:52<SquireJames>well otherwise my heavy coal train from the north west can't go through the white through lines
18:53<Eddi|zuHause3>yeah, that should probably get handled differently
18:53<Rubidium>hmm, with a little tweaking and knowledge you can recompile OTTD (after a make clean) in 55 seconds at 600 MHz (at debuglevel 2)
18:53<Eddi|zuHause3>i would now remove the bridge, and tunnel those 2 coal tracks instead
18:54<SmatZ>Rubidium: with ccache and/or distcc ?
18:54<Rubidium>only ccache, distcc would be really cheating
18:54<Rubidium>and sloer
18:55<Rubidium>and slower
18:56<SquireJames>but, they wouldnt be able to surface before the station
18:56<SquireJames>and i cant delete that brick arch bridge as it carries my trams
18:56<Eddi|zuHause3>you can remove the two middle platforms, if they are only passed by coal trains
18:56<Eddi|zuHause3>you can place arbitrary stuff under bridges
18:57<Eddi|zuHause3>that means you can place the coloured signs where now the station is
18:57<Eddi|zuHause3>branch the northwest coal line where now the signs are
18:57<Eddi|zuHause3>and start the tunnel where now the bridge is
18:57[~]ThePenguin is happy. Compiler looks like it is going to complete
18:58<Eddi|zuHause3>and have the lines crossing the tunnel further to the right
18:59<Eddi|zuHause3>understand what i am saying?
18:59<SquireJames>i think so
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19:00<SquireJames>so far, with a few colour signs the current layout is working alright
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19:03<Eddi|zuHause3>what irks me most is those 2-way sections, and that there are no signals at the bridge, to separate the left from the right section
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19:23<Eddi|zuHause3>greetings from escher?
19:25<+glx>someone had too much free time
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19:30<Eddi|zuHause3>funny, searching for "escher" on google even gives that picture :p
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19:31<+glx>it's not a real construction, but an assembly of many it seems
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19:35<Eddi|zuHause3>it looks like several "modules" attached to each other at certain points
19:36<+glx>I'm not confident in its stability
19:37<exe>other than map downloading, it should not matter for network bandwidth (game lag, lost connections) how big the map is, and how many vehicles there are?
19:37<Eddi|zuHause3>i'd have other things to worry about in escher pictures :p
19:38<+glx>exe: right, map downloading is the bigger bandwidth consumer
19:39<exe>then it just sends tick packets as always
19:39<+glx>commands and "tick" frames yes
19:39<+glx>not very big
19:40<+glx>but if a client has a high ping, the server may drop it
19:42<exe>so probably the feeling that i get lagged out more often on big maps is wrong
19:42<+glx>your computer may be too slow to follow the server
19:44<Eddi|zuHause3>the server must be the slowest one
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19:44<Eddi|zuHause3>else all clients who cannot keep up will get dropped
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20:02<Phazorx>the coopers desync is relevant to RVs/depots apparently
20:02<Phazorx>perhaps LV4 induced
20:03<Phazorx>if anyone cares...
20:03<Phazorx>and i can not even run that revision :|
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---Logclosed Wed Sep 05 00:00:41 2007