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#openttd IRC Logs for 2007-09-10

---Logopened Mon Sep 10 00:00:00 2007
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03:15<dihedral>hello ladies
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07:07<dihedral>you're a quiet bunch...
07:08<guru3>It is Monday Morning.
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07:12<N101>monday night
07:12<N101>dredding school for tommrow
07:17<dihedral>it's monday afternoon
07:18<guru3>same here
07:18<guru3>finally getting around to writing yesterday's blog entry
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09:47<dihedral>silence is gold?
09:47<Eddi|zuHause2>no, green!
09:47<@TrueBrain>or purple
09:47<Rubidium>rahther greenish
09:49<+glx>red and green with some blue
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09:52<frosch123>TrueBrain: Thanks. But why do you clear the anim-buffer, when skipping transparent pixels?
09:52<@TrueBrain>frosch123: euh.. DOH
09:53<@TrueBrain>that was old code that was needed for some testing...
09:53<Eddi|zuHause2>that is feeled fix #12 to a commit? :p
09:53<@TrueBrain>you forgot to skip the anim buffer at all
09:53<@TrueBrain>so I wondered what went wrong
09:54<SpComb>what's changed between 0.5.2 and 0.5.3-RC3 that would cause console commands sent to openttd -D's stdin to work in the latter, but not in the former?
09:54<frosch123>Oops, indeed. Stupid copy and paste.
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09:55<SpComb>oh, right, I just answered that myself with a quick `diff` - printf("%s\n", str); becomes fprintf(stdout, "%s\n", str); fflush(stdout);
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09:57<CIA-1>OpenTTD: truelight * r11083 /trunk/src/blitter/32bpp_anim.cpp: -Fix r11078: don't clear the anim buffer when alpha = 0 (tnx to frosch)
09:58<@TrueBrain>so there you go frosch123
09:58<@TrueBrain>when can we expect a patch that makes the 32bpp-optimized encode stuff like 8bpp-optimized does? :)
09:59<frosch123>I had a feeling, that the zoom-level-based rendering does not increase performance.
09:59<@TrueBrain>it does a bit, but more: it reduces the amount of memory needed ;)
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10:00<frosch123>If you compare 8bpp-simple and 8bpp-optimized, 8bpp optimized is 8 times faster on my machine.
10:00<frosch123>but the skipping can only explain factor 2
10:01<frosch123>So I can only guess a cache issue, because of very small mem usage of the 8bpp-optimized
10:01<@TrueBrain>on nomral zoom-in you mean?
10:01<frosch123>but the 32bpp blitters use more memory
10:01<@TrueBrain>put your cache on 16M, and it should never give any problem :)
10:01<frosch123>yes the normal zoom-in
10:01<frosch123>I mean processor first level cache.
10:01<frosch123>My spritecache is 64M
10:01<@TrueBrain>main thing about 8bpp-optimized, is that memcpy is used to copy bytes, instead of one by one
10:01<@TrueBrain>(in case of no REMAP and TRANSPARENT)
10:02<@TrueBrain>So L1 cache? I think L2 is more important in this, but okay, good enough :)
10:02<frosch123>When using 8bpp-optimized for zoom-out levels, it is not that fast compared to 8bpp-simple.
10:02<@TrueBrain>it looses it advantage yes
10:03<@TrueBrain> default:
10:03<@TrueBrain> memcpy(dst, src, pixels);
10:03<@TrueBrain> dst += pixels; src += pixels;
10:03<@TrueBrain> break;
10:03<@TrueBrain>This was a factor 4 speed-up or something :)
10:03<+glx>yes water works well now
10:04<frosch123>That only works for fully opaque pixels.
10:04<@TrueBrain>frosch123: 8bpp....
10:04<@TrueBrain>anyway, the point here is: you can't get as fast as 8bpp-optimized with 32bpp, simply because you can't memcpy
10:04<@TrueBrain>but a speed of 8bpp-simple should be reachable
10:05<@TrueBrain>although that is just a random number
10:05<@TrueBrain>(they cna't be really compared)
10:06<frosch123>Perhaps split the M channel from CommonPixel and store length of fully opaque pixelblocks as well.
10:06<frosch123>Then memcpy would be possible.
10:06<@TrueBrain>for small pieces, indeed
10:06<@TrueBrain>(depending on the source of course)
10:07<@TrueBrain>anyway, I got to go
10:07<@TrueBrain>bye all!
10:12[~]SpComb shakes fist at whoever forgot to flush stdout
10:12<SpComb>I have to run openttd inside a pty, which introduces all kinds of nasty things, but at least it works
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10:21<Rubidium>so, did anybody test the current 0.5 branch?
10:21<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r11084 /trunk/ (Doxyfile src/command.cpp src/command.h): -Documentation [FS#1219]: of command.*. Patch by Progman.
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10:29<skidd13>Rubidium: Anything special in mind?
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10:32<Rubidium>quite a lot, cause there were some major changes in the command subsystem
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10:37<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r11085 /trunk/src/command.h: -Fix-ish (r11084): some tabs that did not show up in the diff, which caused a mess of tab and non-tab usage.
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10:43<Ammlller>Hi, strange bug in current nightly: we have to stop trains to join, else we will desync
10:44<+glx>current is not a version :)
10:44<Rubidium>they're running 11085
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10:46<Ammlller>is that not current nightly?
10:46<+glx>it is yesterday nightly :)
10:47<Ammlller>and that is current untily this night :)
10:47<+glx>and what version was previously used?
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10:48<Ammlller>11047, is that importend?
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10:49<+glx>reduce the changes to check :)
10:49<Ammlller>I guess, it has something to do with the vehicle list?
10:49<Ammlller>smartz patches?
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10:50<SmatZ>Ammlller: hello, what's the problem?
10:51<Ammlller>If someone likes to join, we have to stop trains (not pause) else he will desync
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10:52<Farden>and if we forget a train, even if it doesn't move, desync...
10:52<+glx>there's a stopall command IIRC to not forget any train :)
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10:53<Ammlller>and SmatZ, 2 error witch patch setting on start, is that wanted? (
10:53<Ammlller>advanced_vehicle_list = 1
10:53<Ammlller>loading_indicators = 1
10:53<SmatZ>why do you think my patch caused this?
10:53<Ammlller>was true before...
10:54<SmatZ>you have to set different value now
10:54<SmatZ>it is saved in openttd.cfg, not in savegame
10:54<SmatZ>fully client-side option
10:54<Ammlller>hmm, possible that server has still old settings
10:54<Ammlller>could that be the problem
10:54<Farden>(and on exit, too, the errors)
10:55<SmatZ>really, changes in GUI shouldn't cause any of described problems
10:55<SmatZ>I even used modified r11042 client with those patches on #openttdcoop with no problem
10:55<SmatZ>whne you set new value, it gets saved
10:58<SmatZ>Ammlller: go to Patch settings, change those "problematic" patches to some value and leave the game -> it will be saved and give no more warning
10:58<SmatZ>it is fully client-side patch, it cannot cause desyncs...
10:58<SmatZ>if it can, there is something horribly wrong in the code ...
10:59<Ammlller>SmatZ: you can also delete them..
10:59<Rubidium>my suspect is FS#11059
10:59<Ammlller>I will check server settings
10:59<Rubidium>especially the train_cmd.cpp change
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11:04<Ammlller>Rubidium: it has definitly something to do with trains, its easy reproducable
11:04<skidd13>Does anyone remember who has written the town growth speed stuff?
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11:05<@Bjarni>try svn blame and read the log entry for the commit in question
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11:14<skidd13>@seen Maedhros
11:14<@DorpsGek>skidd13: Maedhros was last seen in #openttd 1 week, 6 days, 21 hours, 19 minutes, and 9 seconds ago: <Maedhros> i'm not entirely sure what that code should be doing though (and the cider isn't helping ;)
11:19<skidd13>@commit 9613
11:19<@Bjarni>damn he had to be drunk if he has a two week handover o_O
11:19<@DorpsGek>skidd13: Commit by maedhros :: r9613 /trunk/src (7 files in 2 dirs) (2007-04-12 17:24:34 UTC)
11:19<@DorpsGek>skidd13: -Feature: Make it possible to have some control over the town growth. The
11:19<@DorpsGek>skidd13: default rate is TTD's original rate, and to approximate OpenTTD's previous
11:19<@DorpsGek>skidd13: behaviour the rate should be set to "Fast" or "Very Fast". Town growth can be
11:19<@DorpsGek>skidd13: switched off entirely, and if so, buildings will not be rebuilt. It is also
11:20<@DorpsGek>skidd13: (...)
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11:20<skidd13>@commit 9614
11:20<@DorpsGek>skidd13: Commit by maedhros :: r9614 trunk/src/town_cmd.cpp (2007-04-12 18:23:47 UTC)
11:20<@DorpsGek>skidd13: -Feature: Use the normal growth rate values when the growth rate is set to none and "Fund new buildings" is used.
11:20<svip>Does it really need to add an extra line with "(...)"?
11:20<svip>Couldn't it just wrap up the line before that with thaT?
11:20<skidd13>It's a bot it's stupid
11:20<svip>You can make a bot smart.
11:21<@Bjarni>only if you want to invest too much time in it
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11:21<svip>Yeah yeah.
11:21<skidd13>svip: you can but do you want? ;)
11:21<svip>But of course it is stupid, it performs simple tasks.
11:21<svip>Just think it is a waste of lines.
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11:22<svip>In fact, why don't it just remove the line feeds and move as much as possible on one line.
11:22<@Bjarni>for some reason it's funnier when they are dumb and fills the channel with something not that bright :P
11:22<@Bjarni><svip> In fact, why don't it just remove the line feeds and move as much as possible on one line. <-- readability
11:22<+glx><@Bjarni> for some reason it's funnier when they are dumb and fills the channel with something not that bright :P <-- kick because flood?
11:23<@Bjarni>yeah, that too
11:23<ln->Bjarni: so, gravity 1 - SAS 0
11:23<svip>"You win again, gravity!"
11:23[~]Bjarni never really liked Dash 8 anyway
11:24<svip>Dash 8?
11:24<@Bjarni>it's the wrong plane for the route
11:24<svip>:/ Who goes to Aalborg anyway?
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11:24<@Bjarni>that's another very good question
11:24<svip>And if you are, why are you flying?
11:25<svip>Do it the OTTD way... take the train.
11:25<svip>Luckily you don't have to build the tracks yourself.
11:25<ln->it was a DeHavilland Q400, wasn't it?
11:26<@Bjarni>I once took the train there and had to change... and the other train didn't drive on that particular weekday. DSB sold me an invalid ticket >_<
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11:26<@Bjarni>ln-: the news here claimed it to be Dash 8-Q400
11:26<ln->(their ticket vending user interface must have been in danish so they couldn't understand a word)
11:27<ln->hmmm, so are there two planes called Q400, funny.
11:27<ln->or it might be an alternative name
11:28<@Bjarni>actually it was before computers took over, so the ticket sales person looked up the schedule in a book and it appears that she read the wrong weekday (aka the wrong page)
11:29<+glx>ln-: nice of you to give the norwegian page :)
11:29<ln->glx: it was closest to danish i could find.. google found japanese page first.
11:30<@Bjarni>post that one as well :P
11:30<Rubidium>at least there are quite a few Japanese->English translators (at least more than Norwegian->English)
11:30<svip>"9 September 2007: The crew on board Scandinavian Airlines flight 1209, en route from Copenhagen to Aalborg reported problems with the locking mechanism of right side landing gear, and Aalborg Airport was prepared for an emergency landing."
11:30<@Bjarni>and then everybody can use bablefish to understand anything in it :P
11:31<@Bjarni>svip: you didn't know?
11:31<svip>I did.
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11:31<svip>I is just fooling around.
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11:31<@Bjarni>"I is"???
11:32<ln->"it's canada's fault!"
11:32<@Bjarni>whenever you can blame somebody on the other side of the Atlantic, then do it
11:33<@Bjarni>but you only get full points when you blame Bush... how can this be Bush's fault?
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11:34<ln->without americans the operating airline would have been lufthansa or klm.
11:34<ln->a little far-fetched, yes.
11:34<Rubidium>because under Bush' administration they still let (proven) unsafe planes fly for years
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11:35<Rubidium>a large part of the crashes due to technical "issues" happen quite a few times after they have found the "cure" for it
11:36<+glx>yeah 737 should not be allowed to fly
11:37<Rubidium>like (see "See also" list for more crashes due to the same technical mistake)
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12:14<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r11086 /trunk/src/train_cmd.cpp: -Fix/Revert (r11053, r10984): "fixing" r11053 made the acceleration code use the wrong speed, which can be fixed by reverting a small piece of r10984.
12:14<@Bjarni>hi Wolf01
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12:27<Phazorx>gota a question related to
12:27<Phazorx>have some time/desire to discuss?
12:29<Rubidium>not really as it is a hell of a lot of work for making the game even less balanced *and* basically ditching "proper" newgrf support.
12:29<Phazorx>well less balanced is something that can be countered by other measures
12:29<Phazorx>as i mention in the original post - i recon how complex would it to be to get it done properly
12:29<Phazorx>and i'm not even leaning that way
12:30<Phazorx>however there can be ways to deal with "undeserved extra income"
12:31[~]Belugas yawns
12:31<Phazorx>i wonder if there are other things that will be affected aside of price calculation
12:33<Wolf01>uhm, this night 2 hours of the simpsons inedited episodes
12:34<@Bjarni>now that is kind of off topic
12:35<@Bjarni>specially because it's likely on a channel I can't watch :P
12:35<@TrueBrain>Wolf01: any new version of your fast GUI patch?
12:35<Wolf01>no, i'm stuck with... all
12:36<@Bjarni>then how can you have time for watching unedited cartoons?
12:36<Wolf01>i need an help tool-like behaviour, but without the white square
12:36<Wolf01>Phazorx, what about making trains cars to be continuous instead of "draw the next one where the current ends"?
12:36<@TrueBrain>white square?
12:37<Wolf01>the placement method
12:37<Wolf01>i don't want to use a placement tool, i want to click tiles directly
12:37<Phazorx>Wolf01: you mean overlaying them?
12:37<@Bjarni>sounds like it
12:38<Wolf01>have you ever saw a train car with a door on the roof of the next car?
12:39<Wolf01>*saw -> seen or "place the right verb"
12:39<@TrueBrain>hmm, WWT_TRANSPARENT doesn't even work, hehe :)
12:40<Phazorx>Wolf01: it is possibel i guess... but math/engine solution is probably simplier
12:40<Wolf01>yes, but you can fix both the speed and the appearance of a train
12:43<Phazorx>well as Rubidium mentioned - gfx fix is much more tidious
12:44<Wolf01>dinner time
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12:49<Rubidium>after thinking about this issue I've come to the solution that you can never fix it: you can't make a vehicle that is exactly long enough so you won't get the FS#1063 "issue" when going from straight to diagonal and when going from diagonal to straight
12:51<Rubidium>as the length of the train must be proportional to sqrt(2), which isn't something you can achieve (nicely) with 28 or so pixels
13:00<Phazorx>Rubidium: once again, what if we forego realistic/proper way of fixing it
13:00<Phazorx>and play around with math
13:01<Phazorx>contracting/misplacing grfs is probably not a bes idea but if we fake math to be 1 instead of srt(2)/2 for diagonals
13:02|-|mikl [] has joined #openttd
13:02<Phazorx>and compensate early arrivals for trains that have traveled a lot of space fiagonaly by afefcting profit
13:04<Rubidium>Phazorx: how long should the vehicle be?
13:04<Rubidium>on the diagonals
13:04<Phazorx>half tile, both visualy and realisticaly
13:05<Phazorx>i mean a tile for size/speed/distance calcualtion part has size of 1
13:05<Phazorx>either way, straight or diagonal
13:05<Rubidium>how big in pixels?
13:06<Phazorx>oh... i have no idea... i would not like the solution if it had to toch gfx
13:06<Phazorx>i'd say exactly same as now grafically
13:06<Phazorx>i only want to affect positions of everything
13:06<Rubidium>positioning needs some sqrt(2) thing in diagonals
13:07<Phazorx>essentialy as soon as 1st car of train is fully diagonal (half tile), a straight part of train should be one car (hal tile) less
13:07<Phazorx>yes it does and the images used are coping with that very nicely
13:07<Phazorx>since they are stretched byt sqrt(2) as well
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13:09<Phazorx>again Rubidium i do not have anything against unrealistic looking "expanding" effect, that is unavoidable heritage
13:09<Rubidium>Phazorx: mathematically (not even graphically) a vehicle must be sqrt(2)/2 (or something like that) long on the diagonal track to not get the issue of FS#1063 on the begin *or* end of the diagonal track
13:10<Phazorx>Rubidium: yes, and graffics used right now are exactly like that - a 2 full cars of train make whole diagonal track
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13:10<Phazorx>each one of them is sqrt(2)/2 in visual length i guess
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13:11<Phazorx>but time it takes for these cars to get there is proportional not to their length but to traveled distabce which uses different scale
13:11<Phazorx>which is the root of the problem
13:12<Phazorx>if it is possible to make trains travel diagonaly with same proportions as grafical representation suggests you would get rif of growing/shrinking effect
13:13<Phazorx>it will not look either nice, realistic or proper since trains would visualy and mathematicaly move faster on diagonal parts of tracks
13:13<Phazorx>but that can be dealt with separately
13:13<Rubidium>which is even wronger
13:14<Rubidium>moving FASTER and a SHORTER distance, that's like giving it double bonuses
13:14<Phazorx>well i'd say that is to be debated upon, i can suggest multuiple strategies for balancing that
13:14<Wolf01>back :P
13:14<Rubidium>well, write a fix and show us how "easy" it is
13:14<Phazorx>heh... i guess i am planing on that
13:15<Phazorx>but my priginal question was what else can be affected by such change
13:15|-|Nite [] has joined #openttd
13:15<Rubidium>quite a lot, but what I don't know
13:16<Phazorx>am i right to assume that for price calculation manhattan distance is used instead of any other model?
13:16<Nite>where 2 ask about "reliability" calculation in ottd ?
13:18<Ammlller>Nite, why didn't you just ask?
13:18<Nite>hoped someone here could say something bout it
13:18<Nite>is it purely random or can you influence it somehow?
13:19|-|Dark_Link^ changed nick to Dark_Link^Maxi
13:20<@TrueBrain>it is fully based on your creditcard number
13:22<@Bjarni>if you give your credit card number and the date of expiration, the vehicles will break down way less
13:22<Prof_Frink>And the security code on the back
13:22<@TrueBrain>oh, just wire us all your money :)
13:24<Nite>just thinking about money - pah - what about true values!
13:25<@TrueBrain>that was what we were talking about: money
13:26<Prof_Frink>True value is 1. Credit card value is >1.
13:26<Prof_Frink>(Subject to owner of said card)
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13:31<@Belugas>ho :(
13:31<@Belugas>he left :(
13:31<@Belugas>that's bad
13:31<@Belugas>was getting interesting :)
13:34|-|Nite [] has joined #openttd
13:34<Phazorx>i guess his time much closer to "true value" than what has been suggested here :)
13:39<Nite>on trillian anyone?
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13:42<Wolf01>TrueBrain, now i succeeded to open the gui by clicking on a tile
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13:43<@Belugas>Nite, define trillian, please
13:43<@Belugas>a new drug?
13:43<@Belugas>then no. I'm on coffeing
13:44<Nite>the chat program ...
13:44<Wolf01>multiprotocol chat program
13:45<Phazorx>like miranda, but bloated
13:46<Nite>bloated but working ;p
13:51<Wolf01>TrueBrain i know there are some weird glitches, but is like how it should behave (press ctrl+f to start it, i don't know how to autostart, or at least it doesn't work)
13:52|-|Dark_Link^Maxi changed nick to Dark_Link^
13:53<@Belugas>i use mIRC
13:53<@Belugas>quite happy that i CAN use IRC, and that's it...
13:53<@Belugas>make it as simple as possible
13:54<Phazorx>bx/iirc would be as simple... xchat is also possible :)
13:55<Wolf01>i like more bitchx
13:56<Wolf01>i use it with my DS when i use DSLinux :P
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14:11|-|NetHack #openttd [+ovv Bjarni glx tokai] by []
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14:19<Sacro>i didn't do it
14:19<Sacro>nobody saw me
14:19<Sacro>you can't prove anything
14:20|-|Sacro kicked [#openttd] Bjarni [I don't have to have proof of anything as long as my word is the law in here]
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14:22<@Bjarni>usually he returns within 30 sec
14:22<@Belugas>you killed Sacro!
14:22|-|Sacro [~Sacro@adsl-87-102-80-216.karoo.KCOM.COM] has joined #openttd
14:23<@Belugas>3 minutes for resurrection
14:26<Wolf01>his soul splitted from the body in the last netsplit
14:26<@Bjarni>he has a soul?
14:26<@Belugas>a miracle!!
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15:11<@TrueBrain>I wish people would stop joining and leaving...
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15:12<@TrueBrain>@kick Wolf01 and stay out!
15:12|-|Wolf01 kicked [#openttd] DorpsGek [and stay out!]
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15:12<Wolf01>but i left and joined :(
15:12<Wolf01>you said join and leave
15:12<Prof_Frink>/ignore #openttd JOINS
15:12<@Bjarni>I'm sorry, but I have to leave and join once in a while
15:13<@Bjarni>like when I turn the computer off or reboots
15:13<ln->YOU TURN THE COMPUTER OFF??? what kind of a freak does that and admits it.
15:14<@Bjarni>people, who cares about the environment
15:14<ln->actually no comma there
15:14|-|Greyscale [] has joined #openttd
15:14<Prof_Frink>If you're gonna turn your computer off, IRC from somewhere else.
15:14<@Bjarni>like environment around a bed
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15:15<@Bjarni>specially the audio environment
15:15<Rubidium>Bjarni: use a more silent computer
15:16<@Bjarni>I can't really do that
15:16<@Bjarni>you see, I already switched to a silent computer
15:16|-|SmatZ [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
15:16<@Bjarni>but I can still hear the HD itself (even though it's a silent HD)
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15:16<Prof_Frink>Bjarni: Have your computer somewhere else, and a flash-based thin client in your room
15:16<@Bjarni>besides wouldn't it be a waste of power?
15:17<@Bjarni>since I wouldn't need it to be on
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15:18<Rubidium>configure your OS so it stops the HD when it isn't used, or can't your OS handle that?
15:21<@Bjarni>it can
15:21<@Bjarni>it will not stop the HD with the swap partition and the log
15:24<Rubidium>as if those are important in an idle system?
15:24<@Bjarni>it will write to the log if I keep IRC open
15:24<@Bjarni>to store all the people quitting and joining
15:25<Rubidium>then configure it to not flush it immediatelly
15:25<Prof_Frink>Bjarni: mount a flash drive as ~/.irssi
15:25<@Bjarni>but then.... why waste power on a computer that's not supposed to do anything?
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15:27<Rubidium>time == money, and waiting for the thing to boot takes time, i.e. money. Most likely more than what it would cost to keep it turned on ;)
15:29<SmatZ>I wonder how much time took developing OpenTTD (=I would like to know the money devs would be paid, if it weren't under GPL)
15:29<@Bjarni>and how many hours do you expect us to spent figuring out the answer for that question?
15:35<@Belugas>TrueBrain did some calculations a while ago (i think it was him) and it was evaluated that OpenTTD is worth 4 milions$ regarding dev-work
15:35<@Belugas>does it answer the question, SmatZ?
15:36<SmatZ>Belugas: yes, thanks, interesting, really - you all would be very rich now...
15:36<SmatZ>Bjarni: maybe, 0, maybe...
15:36<CIA-1>OpenTTD: miham * r11087 /trunk/src/lang/ (11 files): (log message trimmed)
15:36<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update: WebTranslator2 update to 2007-09-10 22:36:01
15:36<CIA-1>OpenTTD: brazilian_portuguese - 6 fixed by tucalipe (6)
15:36<CIA-1>OpenTTD: catalan - 6 fixed by arnaullv (6)
15:36<CIA-1>OpenTTD: dutch - 6 fixed by webfreakz (6)
15:36<CIA-1>OpenTTD: estonian - 6 fixed by kristjans (6)
15:36<CIA-1>OpenTTD: french - 6 fixed by glx (6)
15:38<@TrueBrain>Belugas: yeah, I used sloccount :) Current value: 4.5M dollar
15:38<@TrueBrain>cpp: 115185 (88.20%)
15:38<@TrueBrain>ansic: 15046 (11.52%)
15:38|-|KouDy [user@] has quit [Quit: Trillian (]
15:38<@TrueBrain>sh: 354 (0.27%)
15:38<@TrueBrain>asm: 6 (0.00%)
15:39<@TrueBrain>Total Physical Source Lines of Code (SLOC) = 130,591
15:39<@TrueBrain>Development Effort Estimate, Person-Years (Person-Months) = 33.32 (399.87)
15:39<@TrueBrain> (Basic COCOMO model, Person-Months = 2.4 * (KSLOC**1.05))
15:39<@TrueBrain>Schedule Estimate, Years (Months) = 2.03 (24.36)
15:39<@TrueBrain> (Basic COCOMO model, Months = 2.5 * (person-months**0.38))
15:39<@TrueBrain>Estimated Average Number of Developers (Effort/Schedule) = 16.42
15:39<@TrueBrain>Total Estimated Cost to Develop = $ 4,501,430
15:39<@TrueBrain> (average salary = $56,286/year, overhead = 2.40).
15:39<@Bjarni>I don't think we could be paid full for the work as a lot of the time is spent on stuff we had to check because we aren't professionally schooled developers (at least not all of us)
15:39<@Bjarni>like it would be unlikely to hire a person to port the game, who never ported anything before
15:40<@TrueBrain>sorry about the spam, it was more text then I assumed :s
15:40<@TrueBrain>2 years of fulltime work, not bad :)
15:40<@Bjarni>I did manage to get it working within a week though... had a serious SDL issue (nice undocumented feature)
15:40<@TrueBrain>33 person-years :)
15:40<@TrueBrain>Bjarni: no, that is just you
15:41<MiHaMeK>TrueBrain: well, if I would be an investor, I'd expect much more stuff for 4.5M usd
15:41<@TrueBrain>MiHaMeK: then you are being unrealistic :)
15:41<@TrueBrain>sloccount in fact returns a value that most of the time is very close to the real value
15:41<@TrueBrain>just remember that it includes maintanance and stuff
15:41<MiHaMeK>TrueBrain: did it count language files as source code?
15:42<@TrueBrain>MiHaMeK: no
15:42|-|Phazorx [] has joined #openttd
15:42<MiHaMeK>TrueBrain: it still looks unrealistic to me, but I'm too tired to argue on this :)
15:42<Sacro>he also returns
15:42<@Bjarni>translators can be ridicules expensive, but sometimes we can question the quality of our translations :(
15:43<@Bjarni>odd translations are usually found though
15:43<MiHaMeK>Bjarni: yeah, you know what: only those err who works something :)
15:43<Prof_Frink>"My hovercraft is full of eels."
15:43<@TrueBrain>MiHaMeK: :) If the 130,000 lines is realistic, it is pretty correct ;)
15:44<@TrueBrain>0 src_lang (none) <- it skipped the lang dir ;)
15:44<@TrueBrain>maybe I should run sloccount every night :p
15:44<@Bjarni>Prof_Frink: not only stuff like that. I once noticed a Danish translator and started to wonder if he was dyslexic or something (he left a while ago)
15:45<Prof_Frink>TrueBrain: What if you count graphics work?
15:45<@TrueBrain>Prof_Frink: sloccount only does, as the name suggests, count Source Line Of Code, so no graphics work for you :)
15:46<@Bjarni>so spending time on changing code will not be counted either
15:46<@TrueBrain>is already included in the model
15:46<@TrueBrain>bug fixes, minor rewrites
15:46<@TrueBrain>all in the value
15:47<@TrueBrain>of course, starting from scratch isn't detected ;)
15:47<MiHaMeK>ok, i'm pretty tired, let's go to sleep
15:47<@TrueBrain>MiHaMeK: have a jolly good night :)
15:47<MiHaMeK>TrueBrain: thanks, i wish the same to you :)
15:47<Eddi|zuHause2>hm, that part went into the wrong window...
15:47<@TrueBrain>tnx :)
15:47<@TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause2: the 'uck' part?
15:48<Eddi|zuHause2>yeah, something like that :p
15:48<Eddi|zuHause2>no, i actually wanted to type "df"
15:48|-|KouDy [~KouDy@] has joined #openttd
15:48<Eddi|zuHause2>now i have a stray d in the console window, and don't know how to handle it
15:48<@Bjarni>there is one thing that's not counted: the time spent on patches that resulted in something we couldn't use and where the patch would have to be started over based on a new idea
15:49<@Bjarni>since the original patch was never committed
15:50<skidd13>good night
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15:56<Prof_Frink>Also not counted is thwarting the opposition by giving patchman a WoW trial
15:57<@TrueBrain>Belugas: if you ever want to show it to someone again: :)
15:57<@TrueBrain>for your pleasure ;)
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16:03<Eddi|zuHause2>am i reading that correctly as "if there were 16 people working full time, they'd have taken 2 years to program this"
16:04<Rubidium>according to some emperical research
16:04<Prof_Frink>"If there were an infinite number of monkeys..."
16:05<@TrueBrain>anyway, it misses a few files, it adds other files...
16:05<svip>But can you have an infinite number of monkeys without dramatically creating a black hole?
16:05<@TrueBrain>it is a nice estimated, nothing more :p
16:05<Prof_Frink>svip: Yes.
16:05<ln->offtopic: what does "düssel" mean in düsseldorf?
16:05<Eddi|zuHause2>so, who is now paying the 4.5 Mio $?
16:05<Prof_Frink>You just need an infinite volume to contain them.
16:05<svip>You are aware that putting about 40 to 50 billion people in the same hall will create a black hole.
16:05<Rubidium>basically the developers
16:06<Eddi|zuHause2>ln-: pretty problematic to determine, village names change a lot over time
16:07<Rubidium>ln-: In the 7th and 8th centuries, the odd farming or fishing settlement could be found at the point where the small river Düssel flows into the Rhine. It was from such settlements that the city of Düsseldorf grew.
16:07<@TrueBrain>svip: even blackholes have a finite mass
16:08<Eddi|zuHause2>yeah, would be my first guess, too, name of a river/stream
16:08<@TrueBrain>[23:05] <svip> You are aware that putting about 40 to 50 billion people in the same hall will create a black hole. <- LOL! That aint true :)
16:08<Rubidium>from our famous, but not to be used in scientific studies, source
16:08<@TrueBrain>you have your statement reversed :)
16:08<svip>But the whole idea about producing an infinite amount of monkeys is ludicrous.
16:08<svip>I mean.
16:08<@TrueBrain>to fit 40 to 50 billion (semi-living) people in the same hall, you need a blackhole created there :)
16:08<svip>Consider the aftermatch.
16:09<@TrueBrain>main difficulty is: you won't be able to see them...... ;)
16:09<svip>Well, the mass of 40 to 50 billion people.
16:09<Rubidium>svip: why, producing an infinite number of rabbits is easy -> fib(infite) == infinite ;)
16:09<svip>But we are talking about monkeys.
16:09<svip>Rabbits aren't monkeys.
16:09<@TrueBrain>okay, let's talk about sheep
16:09<svip>What did you get in biology?
16:09<Eddi|zuHause2>just make the monkeys reproduce like rabbits
16:09<svip>Sheep doesn't have a plural form.
16:09<svip>So let's not.
16:09<svip>Same reason we don't talk about furniture.
16:09<@TrueBrain>good argument :)
16:10<Eddi|zuHause2>i thought sheep was already the plural form...
16:10<svip>Indeed, Eddi|zuHause2.
16:10<@TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause2: and the singular form is...? :)
16:10<Eddi|zuHause2>there are lots of words in german whose plural is the same as singular
16:10<svip>And that is crazy.
16:10<svip>German is just crazy apparently.
16:10<Prof_Frink>germans are crazy.
16:10<Eddi|zuHause2>although sheep is not one of them ;)
16:10<Rubidium>TrueBrain: sheep are never alone
16:10<@TrueBrain>Rubidium: good point :)
16:10<Prof_Frink>orudge will be with them. Always.
16:10<svip>But let's not mention that the Danish word for sheep doesn't have a plural form either.
16:11<Eddi|zuHause2>see, they got that from the danish, not from the german
16:11<svip>You think?
16:11<svip>Sheep is "får" in Danish.
16:11<svip>Hardly sounds related.
16:11<Eddi|zuHause2>not the word, the plural creation :p
16:11<svip>I'm not sure about that either.
16:11<svip>Got any source on that.
16:12<svip>Otherwise I am marking your comments with [citation needed]
16:12<Eddi|zuHause2>but what is the etymology of "får"? it is very different
16:12<Rubidium>svip: the Danish just named the animal after the stuff it creates, i.e. fur
16:12<Eddi|zuHause2>that explains it
16:12<svip>But that is called... "uld" in Danish, Rubidium.
16:13<svip>"Får" produces "uld".
16:13<svip>Ask Bjarni.
16:13<svip>Hey, Bjarni, you gotta help me out here.
16:13<ln->Bjarni: Which one do you produce?
16:14<Eddi|zuHause2>but in german, "Schaf(e)" produce "Wolle"
16:14<Rubidium>huid (<-> uld
16:14<svip>It's crazy!
16:14<ln->"lammas/lampaat" produce "villa"
16:14<svip>Why are there two l's in Llama?
16:15<Eddi|zuHause2>"Herkunft:aus westgerm. skæpa „Schaf“; Herkunft unklar; vermutlich von schaben [1]
16:15<@Bjarni>because it's one short of Lllama
16:15<svip>:( I thought we weren't going to talk about sheep.
16:15<svip>Let's go back to the infinite monkeys.
16:16<Eddi|zuHause2>svip: same as there is "ll" in "Mallorca"
16:16<Rubidium>because they spoke it as ljama? (the spanish that is)
16:16<svip>But if I recall correctly, English isn't Spanish.
16:16<Eddi|zuHause2>but they took it as loanword
16:16<Sacro>and two is in llanfairpyth... whatsit
16:17<Rubidium>ah well, better get back to war with the UK then ;)
16:17<svip>Why not add a silent M in front of it?
16:17<Eddi|zuHause2>Sacro: could be some celtic roots in spanish
16:17<svip>No, Mllama, Bjarni.
16:17<Sacro>Eddi|zuHause2: you should ask Born_Acorn
16:17<Sacro>he is from the land of the welsh
16:17<@Bjarni>hi, do you live in MUK? :)
16:18<Eddi|zuHause2>i never understood how so many beginning letters in english are silent
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16:18<Eddi|zuHause2>like in "Pterodactyl", the 'P' is silent in english...
16:18[~]Prof_Frink stabs Eddi|zuHause2 with a knife
16:19<svip>Like in French?
16:19<svip>Just at the end.
16:19<Eddi|zuHause2>yeah, also "Knight" (from german "Knecht" == lower vasall)
16:19<svip>And why do they even have H in French?
16:19<Sacro>Eddi|zuHause2: you should come to Hull
16:19<Sacro>pronounced 'Ull round 'ere
16:19<svip>Moo moo.
16:20<Prof_Frink>Eddi|zuHause2: "You silly English ker-nigets"
16:20<Prof_Frink>Dammit, now I want to watch Python as well
16:20<Eddi|zuHause2>"Karnickel?" no, those are bunnies :p
16:20<svip>I thought he wanted to code in Python.
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16:20<Sacro> :D
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16:21<@Bjarni><svip> I thought he wanted to code in Python. <-- he isn't THAT crazy
16:21|-|Netsplit <-> quits: Phazorx, DaleStan, G
16:21<Sacro>Prof_Frink: i don't think he wants one
16:21<Eddi|zuHause2>probably half the jokes in monty python get lost in the translation
16:21<Sacro>he's already got one, you see
16:21<svip>I coded my website in Python, Bjarni.
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16:21<@Bjarni>I feel sorry for you
16:22<@Bjarni>did you get over it?
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16:22<Eddi|zuHause2>hm, i need to learn some python these days...
16:22<@Bjarni>ppsss pssssssss psss
16:22<@Bjarni>like that?
16:23<Sacro>Bjarni: i fart in your general direction, your mother was a hamster, and your father smelt of elderberries
16:23<Prof_Frink>Sacro: NI!
16:23<Eddi|zuHause2>my professor and especially his assistant do a lot in model checking, now my project is to get some "real world" code from a company, and build a translator from python and C++ into those models
16:24<Sacro> :D
16:24[~]Sacro learns to use coconuts
16:24<Eddi|zuHause2>thus i need to have some kind of an idea how a python program looks like
16:25<@Bjarni>Sacro: those nuts are coconuts :P
16:25<@Bjarni>coconuts are way bigger than that
16:26<Eddi|zuHause2>you are nuts!
16:26<@Bjarni>I already told him that, but I don't think he understood it :P
16:28[~]Sacro scratches his nuts
16:28<@Bjarni>see, he just admitted it
16:28<@Bjarni>"* Sacro [...] his nuts"
16:28<Eddi|zuHause2>in german "Eins auf die Nuß geben" means to slap one's head
16:29<Sacro>i've got a lovely bunch of coconuts...
16:29<Eddi|zuHause2>actually not slap, more like knock
16:29<Eddi|zuHause2>(another silent 'k')
16:29<Eddi|zuHause2>there are even silent 'g', like in "gnome"
16:31[~]Prof_Frink throws Magdalene College at Eddi|zuHause2
16:31<Sacro>gnome doesn't have a silent g
16:31<Prof_Frink>Sacro: The little man on the toadstool does
16:32<Sacro>does he?
16:32<Prof_Frink>the GNU Network Object Model Environment doesn't
16:32<Eddi|zuHause2>in all kinds of english i heard, "gnome" (as in the little person) had silent "g"
16:32<Eddi|zuHause2>there's even a joke about it in Charmed
16:33<Eddi|zuHause2>which is totally untranslateable into german
16:33<Eddi|zuHause2>because in german, the g is not silent
16:33<Prof_Frink>Tefad: Yeah, that's weird
16:33<Tefad>gnu has hard g
16:33<Tefad>gnat has silent g
16:33<Tefad>anything gnu related has hard g.
16:33<Tefad>so.. guh-nome for gnome.
16:33<Prof_Frink>gnot gnecessarily
16:34<Tefad>unless some developer is being weird.
16:34<Eddi|zuHause2>english is totally weird
16:34<Prof_Frink>The wildebeest (plural, wildebeest or wildebeests), also called the gnu (pronounced /nu/ or /nju/)
16:34<Tefad>english is a mutt
16:35<Eddi|zuHause2>whatever a "mutt" is
16:35<Diabolic-Angel>a mail client?
16:37<Sacro>grr, sat waiching python now
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16:38<Tefad>mutt is a mix of a lot of things
16:38|-|Wolf01 [] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.]
16:38<Tefad>english is derived directly from old german (or something)
16:39<Tefad>however the english speaking lands were occupied by french speakers
16:39<Tefad>and the english language took on many french words
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16:39<Tefad>so english has german and french rooted words for just about everything
16:40<Eddi|zuHause2>english is a horrible mix of latin, german, nordic and french
16:40<Tefad>commence versus begin
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16:40<@Bjarni>1000 year old English looks like Nordic
16:40<Eddi|zuHause2>basically everyone who ever conquered britain :p
16:41<@Bjarni>Germany conquered England?
16:41<@Bjarni>AFAIK Hitler didn't win the Battle of Britain
16:41<svip>He didn't?
16:41<Tefad>early germans
16:41<Tefad>really early germans
16:41<svip>I have to rewrite my story book.
16:41<[Surge]>10 barbarians with clubs
16:41<svip>Who all spoke German.
16:42<Tefad>as there are native languages to the british isles
16:42<Eddi|zuHause2>german tribes ("Angeln" and "Sachsen") moved to britain after the romans left, hence the name England (Angelland)
16:42<svip>They still use the term Anglo.
16:42<Tefad>the normans took a while, but invaded later
16:42<svip>Like in Anglosphere.
16:42<Tefad>aka french speakers
16:42<svip>Wikipedia even has an Anglo-Saxon edition.
16:44<Eddi|zuHause2>incidentally, the name "France" also comes from a german tribe ("Franken") who moved westwards
16:44<@Bjarni>I have a good story about languages. Some old Dane (from the western parts of the country) went to London and went to a pub. He found some young ladies and started talking to them in the only language he knew (try and guess which one). His son noticed, went over and asked the ladies if they could understand him and they replied that it was a bit hard, but they guessed it was because he was from Scotland
16:46<Eddi|zuHause2>well, languages from similar groups often have a lot in common
16:46<Eddi|zuHause2>and since english belongs to almost any group... :p
16:47<svip>Not Finno-Ugric.
16:47<svip>That's for sure.
16:47<svip>o_o Wow.
16:48<@Bjarni>actually old people from the western part of Denmark do speak something that sounds closer to Scottish than the language spoken by young people or people from the rest of the country
16:48<Eddi|zuHause2>i would probably understand a dutch person if he was speaking slow enough
16:48<@Bjarni>the odd part is that I might have better luck understanding a Scottish person o_O
16:49<Eddi|zuHause2>i always get adjectives and averbs wrong
16:49<Eddi|zuHause2>because they are the same in german
16:49<svip>Like that language they made in Skåne, Bjarni?
16:49<svip>Which neither Swedes nor Danes could understand.
16:49<@Bjarni>I can understand it
16:49<Eddi|zuHause2>there are weird german dialects around also
16:50<@Bjarni>at least I tend to understand their questions and I think they understand my replies
16:50<Eddi|zuHause2>in Thüringen you occasionally have villages who can't understand people from the neighbouring village
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16:50<Eddi|zuHause2>because they speak totally different dialects
16:51<Eddi|zuHause2>note that Thüringen was one of the most fractured areas before the first "unification" (in 1871)
16:51<@Bjarni>I like the story about a group of people from the far eastern part of Denmark meeting a group from the far western part and they needed a translator :D
16:51<Eddi|zuHause2>meaning states of the size of one castle+surrounding village
16:52<@Bjarni>sounds like a place where diplomacy had to be very efficient and active it would be total chaos
16:53<Eddi|zuHause2>there's a most funny line in the "False friends" list on wikipedia within german: "Word: 'na', meaning: 'yes'/'no' (depending on dialect), misunderstanding: 'no'/'yes' (the other meaning)"
16:54<Eddi|zuHause2>e.g. in bavaria "na" means "no", while in saxony "na" means "yes".
16:55<@Bjarni>this sucks if you are asked something like "are you guilty?"
16:56<Eddi|zuHause2>other common misunderstandings between germans from different regions involve clock times
16:56<@Bjarni>you could be beheaded for admitting a crime you didn't commit :P
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16:56<@Bjarni> <-- just found this on wikipedia... looks different from what I usually see
16:57<Eddi|zuHause2>e.g. in one part you say "viertel vier" (meaning 15:15), while in other parts you say "viertel nach vier" (meaning 16:15)
16:58<Eddi|zuHause2>so if you show up an hour early/late you either forgot summer/winter time or you fell in that trap
16:59<Eddi|zuHause2>btw, it is also a problem with translating to english, germans say "halb zwölf" (meaning 11:30) while the english say "half past twelve" (meaning 12:30)
17:01<Eddi|zuHause2>also, most west germans don't understand the time "dreiviertel vier" (15:45) [where they say "viertel vor vier"]
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17:06<@Bjarni><Eddi|zuHause2> btw, it is also a problem with translating to english, germans say "halb zwölf" (meaning 11:30) while the english say "half past twelve" (meaning 12:30) <-- there is the same problem between Danish and English
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17:07<guru3>you can say half twelve and have it mean 11:30 in english
17:08<Eddi|zuHause2>guru3: a friend of mine tried that, and it did not quite work :p
17:09<Eddi|zuHause2>but i assume that is also very regional
17:09<guru3>well honestly i would probably only use it on eleven
17:09<guru3>say 'half evelent' and have it mean 10:30
17:09<guru3>or maybe it's cause i live in sweden :/
17:09<@Bjarni>I think it would work in the area where peter1138 lives
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17:15<Eddi|zuHause2>hm, "Märchenstunde" is such a great show :p
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17:17<@Bjarni>sounds like either a chick series or porn :P
17:17<svip>Or both.
17:17<@Bjarni>chick porn?
17:18<Eddi|zuHause2>they take famous german fairy tales, and tell how it "really happened"
17:18<Eddi|zuHause2>it's a comedy series
17:18<svip>Then everything is alright.
17:18<Sacro>comedy porn is ace
17:18<svip> <Sacro> porn? << Do you have that on highlight?
17:19<@Bjarni>so it's as funny as "Verstenen Sie spaß?"?
17:19<Sacro>svip: no, i was just passing
17:19<@Bjarni>svip: I think so
17:19<Eddi|zuHause2>different kind of funny ;)
17:19<@Bjarni>just like "lesbian, tits and boobs"
17:19<Eddi|zuHause2>PS: it's "Verstehen"
17:19<@Bjarni>PPS: I knew I had it wrong :P
17:19<svip>You are sorta getting Sacro in the mood.
17:20<@Bjarni>svip: what this trick
17:20<@Bjarni>Sacro: lesbians
17:20<Eddi|zuHause2>"Verstehen Sie Spaß" is more like reality fun (hidden camera)
17:20<Eddi|zuHause2>"Märchenstunde" is scripted fun
17:20<@Bjarni>Sacro is broken
17:20<Eddi|zuHause2>you broke him!
17:20<svip>He is off fapping it off.
17:21<Eddi|zuHause2>yesterday he was happily quoting weird foreign language phrases
17:21<Eddi|zuHause2>then you came along!
17:21<Eddi|zuHause2>that cannot be a coincidence
17:21<@Bjarni>I was offline the whole day yesterday
17:22<Eddi|zuHause2>that's what i was talking about
17:22<Eddi|zuHause2>he was fine, until you came back
17:22<Eddi|zuHause2>you must have brought in a disease
17:22<@Bjarni>no I didn't
17:22<@Bjarni>I will fix him
17:22<@Bjarni>watch and learn
17:22<Eddi|zuHause2>i never know how to spell that one
17:22[~]Bjarni kicks Sacro
17:23<@Bjarni>Sacro: lesbians
17:23<@Bjarni>Eddi|zuHause2: disease
17:23<Eddi|zuHause2>.... right
17:23<Sacro>Bjarni: Jeg er allergisk over for muskatnød
17:23<Eddi|zuHause2>can i see more of that alledged "fixing"?
17:23<Sacro>Hvor er den nærmeste rutsjebane?
17:23<Eddi|zuHause2>what does "Jeg er" mean?
17:23<@Bjarni>Sacro: so you have a problem getting near nuts
17:24<Eddi|zuHause2>something like "are you"?
17:24<@Bjarni>I guess you aren't gay then
17:24<Eddi|zuHause2>or "is he"?
17:24<Eddi|zuHause2>or rather "i am"?
17:25<Eddi|zuHause2>great :p
17:25<Eddi|zuHause2>yes to which one? :p
17:25<Sacro>Unnskyld, Frøken, kunne De fortelle meg hvor i nærheten jeg kan få kjøpt et forkle?
17:25<@Bjarni>the right one
17:25<Eddi|zuHause2>this is right --->
17:26<Eddi|zuHause2>i don't understand that one...
17:26<@Bjarni>it's Norwegian
17:26<Eddi|zuHause2>doesn't change anything :p
17:26<@Bjarni>I think so
17:27<@Bjarni>we think that forkle means apron
17:27<svip>Something like that.
17:27<Eddi|zuHause2>only that "Verkleidung" also can mean two things
17:28<Sacro>De jättelika kräftorna försöker ta över Jorden!
17:28<@Bjarni>but I don't get the dirty remark in that line... and there is always dirty stuff in the odd quotes Sacro copy pastes
17:28<Eddi|zuHause2>he migrated from uncyclopedia
17:28<Eddi|zuHause2>to pure weirdness
17:28<@Bjarni>looks like it
17:28<ln->Eddi|zuHause2: do you understand "Frøken"?
17:29<Sacro>Oho! Tota noin ... Eihän se vaa ollu' sun ajokoira?
17:29<Eddi|zuHause2>ln-: i said i don't
17:29<ln->zomfg, sacro has learned finnish.
17:29<svip>That looks like flaux Finnish.
17:29<ln->Eddi|zuHause2: oh.
17:29<svip>That later line.
17:30<ln->Eddi|zuHause2: Fräulein. even begins and ends with same letters.
17:31<Eddi|zuHause2>there are lots of words which begin and end with the same letters :p
17:31<@Bjarni> <-- Sacro tried this before
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17:34<Sacro>Miért nevet - annyira rosszul beszélek magyarul?
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17:35<@Bjarni>the stuff Sacro says went from idiotic to ununderstandable
17:35<Sacro>Ich bin kein Mitglied dieser Konferenz, dennoch möchte ich einen Pinguin.
17:37<Eddi|zuHause2>important phrase if you happen to stumble into a linux conference in germany... :p
17:37<Eddi|zuHause2>it'll probably also get you a beer in a beergarden :p
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17:38<ln->The forefathers of Sacro:
17:39<Sacro> Wat jij nodig hebt is voedselvergiftiging
17:41<+glx>Sacro: ferme la :)
17:41<+glx>good luck to get the right meaning ;)
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17:44<Sacro> Geben Sie mich dass Geleeschaumgummiring. Ihre HinterteileSIND im Begriff zu explodieren!
17:45<ln->it can't be "dass".
17:50<Eddi|zuHause2>we had that discussion yesterday already...
17:50<Eddi|zuHause2>also, i have never met persons who have multiple backs :p
17:51<Eddi|zuHause2>(on the same person)
17:52<Eddi|zuHause2> <- oh that one is genious ;)
17:52<ln->yesterday it was "dab" though
17:52<Diabolic-Angel>qdb needs a rss feed
17:55<@Bjarni> <-- heh. This guy claims to prove that math is pointless... it is if you like him makes an error :P
17:56<Sacro>thats liek zomg cool
17:56<Eddi|zuHause2>it's so totally old...
17:57<Sacro>like Bjarni
17:57<Eddi|zuHause2>Sacro doesn't even know where the error is...
17:57<Sacro>yes he does
17:57<@Bjarni>prove it :P
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17:59<Sacro>a^2 - ta = b^2 - tb <- i don't see how he got that
17:59<Eddi|zuHause2>that one is correct
17:59<+glx><prepared>(a - t/2)^2 = (b - t/2)^2
17:59<+glx><prepared>a - t/2 = b - t/2
18:00<+glx>this is wrong
18:00<Sacro>should be a^2
18:00<Eddi|zuHause2>no, it shouldn't
18:01<Sacro>a^2 - 2at/2 -t ?
18:01<Eddi|zuHause2>Sacro: he takes the square root on both sides
18:01<Sacro>a^2 -at -t ?
18:01<Sacro>oh... yes
18:01<Sacro>well that's fine
18:01<Eddi|zuHause2>no, it's not
18:02<Eddi|zuHause2>because 2^2 = (-2)^2, but 2 != -2
18:02<+glx>(a -t/2)(a -t/2) != (b - t/2)(b -t/2)
18:02<Eddi|zuHause2>which is the error they abuse her
18:02<@Bjarni>that's a bad line
18:02<@Bjarni>all Sacro will see is "[garbage] abuse her"
18:03[~]Sacro whilstles
18:05<ln->Sacro: what is sqrt(4)?
18:05<ln->and that's.. wrong!
18:06<ln->it is 2.
18:06<Sacro>cos -2*-2=4
18:06<+glx>sqrt is always >=0
18:07<Eddi|zuHause2>it's funnier with roots of higher degree ;)
18:07<Eddi|zuHause2>because you get complex results
18:08<ln->i wonder how common an error it is to assume sqrt(4) would be +/-2.. one mathematically talented guy at school thought so too, once.
18:08<Eddi|zuHause2>a student i know here failed in the maths exam with an easy question like "calculate the 4th roots of i"
18:08<Eddi|zuHause2>ln-: it totally depends on context
18:09<ln->how's that?
18:09<ln->in what context sqrt(4) would be something else than 2?
18:09<Sacro>4th root of i is i
18:10<Sacro>i, 1, -i, -1
18:10<Sacro>i, -1, -i 1
18:10<Sacro>so that'd make it 1
18:10<Sacro>or would it
18:10[~]Sacro asplodes
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18:12<Eddi|zuHause2>ln-: in a context where "sqrt" means both branches
18:14<Eddi|zuHause2>like when you want to extend sqrt analytically (or holomorphically, which is the same, depending on which book you read) from the positive real axis to the complex plane
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18:14<Eddi|zuHause2>you can choose a random branch
18:15<Eddi|zuHause2>not necessarily the positive one
18:15<ln->hmm, wikipedia seems to agree with your definition.
18:17<ln->blah, i'll stick to addition with small natural numbers from now on.
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18:18<Eddi|zuHause2>you can reduce that to peano arithmetics :p
18:19<Eddi|zuHause2>so you only need "zero" (or "one", depending on flavour) and "successor"
18:20<Eddi|zuHause2>addition then reduces to simple rules like
18:20<Eddi|zuHause2>plus(X,zero) = X
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18:21<Eddi|zuHause2>plus(X, succ(Y)) = succ(plus(X, Y))
18:22<Eddi|zuHause2>(those also come in different flavours, like one which evaluates the left operand)
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18:23<Eddi|zuHause2>multiplication is easy, too, you just replace "plus" with "mult", "succ" with "plus" and slightly adapt the right sides
18:23<Sacro>!seen Bjarni
18:23<_42_>Sacro, Bjarni ( was last seen quitting #openttd.notice 1 minute ago (10.09. 23:22) stating "Quit: Leaving" after spending 17 hours 38 minutes there.
18:24<Eddi|zuHause2>it gets really funny when you want to define integer division ;)
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18:37<Eddi|zuHause2>yeah, i have heard of something like that also
18:37<Eddi|zuHause2>basically they made all crossings "right before left"
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19:45<Sacro>glx: is it possibly for to have symlinks for versions
19:45<Sacro>so that /latest/ points to the rigfht file
19:45<Sacro>would make it a lot easier for autoupdating
19:45<+glx>ask TrueBrain
19:46<Sacro>mmm, i shall
19:46<Sacro>when he returns
19:46<+glx>good idea btw
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19:50<Eddi|zuHause2>someone make a GRF out of that: :p
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---Logclosed Tue Sep 11 00:00:37 2007