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#openttd IRC Logs for 2007-09-14

---Logopened Fri Sep 14 00:00:56 2007
---Daychanged Fri Sep 14 2007
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03:33<Eddi|zuHause2># grün, ja grün, sind alle meine zeilen
03:34<Eddi|zuHause2># grün ja grün ist alles, was ich les'
03:34<Eddi|zuHause2># darum lieb' ich, alles was so grün ist
03:35<Eddi|zuHause2># weil mein chan ein idlerchannel ist
03:43|-|frosch123 [~mtce@pascal.math.tu-clausthal.de] has joined #openttd
03:44<Eddi|zuHause2>(slight adaption of a german children's song (http://www.colibu.de/gruen_ja_gruen_sind_alle_meine_kleider.htm))
03:57<frosch123>Those who know german = Those who know the song
03:59<Eddi|zuHause2>sure... but when i saw all the green here, suddenly that melody spooked through my head, and i just couldn't keep that thought to myself :)
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06:40<Greyscale>wakes up
06:41<Eddi|zuHause2>NOOO, you disturb the beautiful green
06:41<svip_>The green?
06:41<svip_>Your face is green.
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06:42<TrueBrain>here it is purple
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07:28<yorick>openttd.org is down?
07:28<+glx>yes
07:32<SpComb>it's httpd is down
07:32<SpComb>-'
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07:36<svip>Apparently, due to the fact that it is in the Netherlands, the dikes have just been blown... and now it is under water.
07:37<SpComb>then it probably wouldn't respond to pings either
07:37<+glx>and TB is out
07:38<svip>SpComb: Ping can work under the most difficult conditions.
07:38<SpComb>underwater?
07:38<svip>That too.
07:38<svip>Ping is like on kernel level.
07:38<svip>So even when everything seems roasted.
07:38<svip>It will still respond.
07:38<SpComb>I think being underwater would kill the httpd and the kernel in the same way
07:39<+glx>and probably the server too
07:39<svip>You think I am being serious?
07:39<SpComb>I bet a paniced kernel won't respond to pings
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08:33<skidd13>whats up with openttd.org?
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08:34<yorick>its down
08:35<skidd13>Obvious, but why?
08:35<yorick>[14:36] <svip> Apparently, due to the fact that it is in the Netherlands, the dikes have just been blown... and now it is under water.
08:35<yorick>[14:39] <svip> You think I am being serious?
08:35<yorick>so... no idea
08:36<Eddi|zuHause2>"whats up" - "its down" <- genious (apart from the missing apostrophes) :p
08:37<Eddi|zuHause2>skidd13: the only person to really tell what's going on timed out together with all other services
08:37<yorick>:D
08:38<+glx>Eddi|zuHause2: indeed he's gone for shopping before the timeout
08:39<Eddi|zuHause2>that would probably not really help the situation :)
08:39<yorick>just like about 2 weeks ago
08:39<skidd13>Murphy hit us again :D
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08:43<Chris82>hi guys :)
08:43<Chris82>I have a question about sprites.h
08:43<Chris82>when I have a line like SPR_ROADSTOP_BASE = SPR_ROUTEMARKER_BASE + 12,
08:43<orudge``>!seen true*
08:43<Chris82>how do I know what the + xx value has to be?
08:44<Chris82>or in other words, how do I find out without being the author of the original grf ;) ?
08:44<Eddi|zuHause2>orudge``: all the bots were also on true*'s server ;)
08:45<orudge``>ah
08:45<orudge``>!logs
08:45<SpComb>Logs: http://spbot.marttila.de:8120/logs/oftc-ottd (old: http://zapotek.paivola.fi/~terom/logs/openttd )
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08:46<skidd13>Chris82: decode the grf and read how many sprites are in it.
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08:52<yorick>openttd.org is back
08:52<svip>:O
08:52<svip>Crisis averted!
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08:53<yorick>and truebrain is back too
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08:54<svip>Crisis not averted then.
08:55[~]Eddi|zuHause2 imagines yorick hittig F5 every 3 seconds for the last half hour
08:56<yorick>thats not true!
08:57<svip>It was every 5 second.
08:57<yorick>every 15 minutes!
08:57<Eddi|zuHause2>yeah. sure.
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09:00<Chris82>skidd13: I found the solution by error and trial ;)
09:00<Chris82>the decoding tools for grfs all don't work on Vista x64
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09:00<Chris82>at least I can't make them work
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09:01<Chris82>I took richk's original routemarkers patch and updated it to CommandCost state and threw away BamBam's version because it was broken
09:01<Chris82>now the grass growth patch also doesn't grow routemarkers anymore ;)
09:01<Chris82>but so far I see no grass growth either, so there's still some work left
09:03<SmatZ>better no grass than routemakers everywhere :-D
09:04<nairan>hmm i have tains getting any coal from mine but rate is still sinking..
09:04<nairan>tains = trains
09:05<Chris82>the routemarker GUI is removed now so building them is a little less comfortable, but the advantage is that they work now properly and don't crash the game ;)
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09:19<Chris82>lol, maybe I should turn on full detail to see grass growth -.-
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09:24<Eddi|zuHause2>hm, weird... there is a openttd 0.5.3 for suse in the packman repositories... no mention of RC#
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09:31<Chris82>ok one problem left to solve though
09:32<Chris82>when I built a normal singla there is also a routemarker drawn on the tile
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09:58<@Belugas>frosch123, my spelling was good, by the way... Just that it is a good FRENCH spelling ^_^
09:59<frosch123>I don't know french
09:59<svip>Nobody knows French.
10:00<Eddi|zuHause2>i know french
10:00<@Belugas>well... there are two devs who do ;)
10:00<Eddi|zuHause2>... un petit peu
10:00<@Belugas>juste assez :)
10:00[~]Belugas goes back to work@work
10:00<@Belugas>have fun
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10:12<Chris82>where is tile defined?
10:13<Chris82>can't find it right now
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10:14<Chris82>nvm *me was stupid*
10:18<svip>:)
10:18<Chris82>when I do TileIndex t = and I want it to be the current tile, what is the "shortcut" for it?
10:19<frosch123>What means "current tile"?
10:20<Chris82>= tile where mouse pointer points at
10:20<frosch123>Those tiles are passed as parameters to commands
10:21<Chris82>I want to do IsTileType(tile, MP_STATION)
10:21<Chris82>because the if clause should only apply if the tile I click is a station
10:21<Chris82>but I don't know how to define tile
10:21<frosch123>Inside a command or inside the gui?
10:21<Chris82>inside HandleViewportScroll()
10:22<Eddi|zuHause2>then look how the highlighting for the mousecursor is done in other parts
10:22<Chris82>I want the show station spread area with rightclick patch to only do something when I actually click on a station
10:22<Chris82>otherwise when rightclicking anywhere on the map it tries to show the station spread area even when there is none which breaks quite a lot of things
10:23<frosch123>GetTileBelowCursor
10:23<Eddi|zuHause2>how do you scroll if you have a station the size of the screen?
10:23<Chris82>you can't have such large stations?
10:23<Chris82>oh wait ok on small resolutions you can indeed
10:23<Chris82>hmmm ok then I make it ctrl + rightclick
10:24<Chris82>2>d:\openttd\openttd-dev\src\window.cpp(1488) : error C2664: 'IsTileType' : cannot convert parameter 1 from 'Point (__fastcall *)(void)' to 'TileIndex'
10:24<Chris82>using GetTileBelowCursor doesn't seem to work
10:25<Eddi|zuHause2>stations can be up to 64x64
10:25<frosch123>It returns a TileCoord
10:25<frosch123>So you have to do something like: TileXY(pt.x / TILE_SIZE, pt.y / TILE_SIZE)
10:25<frosch123>where pt is the result from GetTileBelowCursor
10:36<blathijs>Isn't there a function to do that?
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10:38<frosch123>Only for left clicks :)
10:40<frosch123>Or did you mean "TileVirtXY" instead of "TileXY" and the divisions ?
10:40<Chris82>TileIndex tile;
10:40<Chris82> tile = TileVirtXY(GetTileBelowCursor().x, GetTileBelowCursor().y);
10:41<Chris82>this isn't working as I want it to though
10:41<Chris82>when I move the map with rightclick it works again now
10:41<Chris82>but when a rail building tool is selected it gets deselected when moving the map
10:41<Chris82>which doesn't happen in trunk
10:42<Chris82>this is how the if looks like if ((_ctrl_pressed && (_cursor.delta.x < 10)) || (_ctrl_pressed && (_cursor.delta.y < 10))) {
10:42<Chris82>so when I ctrl + rightclick a station I see the station spread area
10:43<Chris82>when I just rightclick it I can move the map as normally possible
10:43<Chris82>but any tool selected gets deselected, I don't understand why?!
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10:44<frosch123>Did you place it still inside "HandleViewportScroll" ?
10:46|-|G [~njones@202.154.154.157] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
10:46<Chris82>yeah and I just found a weird error
10:46<frosch123>Then what do you return from HandleViewportScroll? True or False?
10:47<Chris82>1. ctrl rightclick on station shows spread area ---- 2. I release ctrl and keep rightclicked and still see the area ---- 3. I keep rightclicked and move around the cursor and although the map moves the catchment area also starts to move under my mouse button :D lol
10:47<Chris82>return false;
10:49<Chris82>maybe this whole patch should get it's own function and not fiddle with HandleViewportScroll
10:49<Chris82>I have no idea why the author added it to this function
10:49<frosch123>Because that functions handles right clicks
10:50<frosch123>when inside a landscape viewport
10:50<frosch123>I guess a left click is a lot easier
10:52<Chris82>hmmm well if I do ctrl + click I can use leftclick too if that's easier
10:52<Chris82>the original author didn't use it because leftclick is reserved for opening the station window
10:53<frosch123>Err - wait - you are right. The right click handler should go to MouseLoop
10:54<frosch123>Instead of "_scrolling_viewport = true"
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11:01<Chris82>nice :) that solved a few issues already
11:01<Chris82>I can still move away the catchment area with the mouse tho when keeping the buttons clicked
11:01<Chris82>but at least map moving 100% as intended now
11:01<Chris82>works*
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11:14<Wolf01>hello
11:15<Chris82>hello
11:18<svip>I thought Wolf01 was German. :O
11:18<Wolf01>no, but i'm stupid if you want
11:18<Eddi|zuHause2>no, he's stupid... or italian
11:18<Wolf01>ehm...
11:18<svip>What's wrong with Italians?
11:18<svip>HUH?
11:18<Eddi|zuHause2>how should i know?
11:18<Eddi|zuHause2>it's _his_ signature
11:19<ln->this is an exceptional channel in the sense that *!*@*.it is not banned.
11:20[~]TrueBrain sets mod +b *!*@*.it
11:20<TrueBrain>so we fixed that
11:21<ln->and not even *!*@*.pl
11:21<Eddi|zuHause2>a propos .pl, what happened to MeusH?
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11:25<Chris82>byebye Supcom time :D
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11:34<@Bjarni><Eddi|zuHause2> a propos .pl, what happened to MeusH? <-- he was arrested by KGB
11:34<@Bjarni>for talking with people with capitalistic minds
11:34<Eddi|zuHause2>who?
11:34<svip>KGB.
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11:35<Eddi|zuHause2>i don't see any people with capitalitic minds...
11:35<Wolf01>he went to italy and i ate him
11:35<Eddi|zuHause2>+s
11:35<@Bjarni>heh. KGB is mentioned and Deathmaker makes a run for it
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11:35<Eddi|zuHause2>it's quite suspicious, in one or the other way :p
11:35<@Bjarni><Eddi|zuHause2> i don't see any people with capitalitic minds... <-- you aren't in a communistic country, which is capitalistic enough
11:36<svip>:O
11:36<svip>But Germany is like federal and stuff.
11:36<Eddi|zuHause2>hey, it's not like it was my choice that my country was stolen underneath me
11:36<@Bjarni>that is what they want you to think
11:36<@Bjarni>@svip
11:36<Eddi|zuHause2>i live in the same place as before the "change"
11:36<svip>What "change"?
11:37<svip>From red to blue?
11:37<@Bjarni>yeah
11:37<Eddi|zuHause2>The Change
11:37<svip>:O
11:37<svip>I have no idea what you're talking about.
11:37<svip>zomg
11:37<Eddi|zuHause2>"Die Wende" is a fixed term in german
11:37<ln->maybe svip is so young he hasn't heard about it.
11:37<svip>Never known it by the name "The Change".
11:37<@Bjarni>sometimes I wonder what svip has heard about :s
11:37<svip>:s
11:39<@Belugas>Eddi|zuHause2, you were on the red part?
11:39<Eddi|zuHause2>yeah...
11:39<Eddi|zuHause2>i was like 8 years back then
11:39<svip>Good times.
11:39<@Belugas>how did you lived the difference?
11:40<svip>Damnit I miss the Cold War.
11:40<@Belugas>was it a good moment? or a frightening one?
11:40<Eddi|zuHause2>difficult to tell
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11:41<Eddi|zuHause2>i remember a conversation with my brother, about "being 'western' now does not feel really different"
11:41<svip>Nah.
11:41<Eddi|zuHause2>the most notable change was the switch of the currency
11:41<svip>See Goodbye, Lenin, Belugas.
11:41<svip>It describes it pretty well.
11:41<@Bjarni>no... you lowered BRD to your level :P
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11:42<@Bjarni>I don't think the DDR+BRD merge and the euro has anything to do with each other
11:42<Eddi|zuHause2>not that currency
11:42<Eddi|zuHause2>the switch from eastern Mark to western Mark
11:43<@Belugas>so the new "liberty" gained was not as evident nor appreciated
11:43<svip>Bjarni thought East and West Germany used the same Mark?
11:43<Eddi|zuHause2>around summer 1990, i believe
11:43<@Bjarni>I didn't say that
11:43<@Belugas>and th "benefits" of it were not affecting you, i guess
11:43<@Bjarni>what benefits?
11:43<Eddi|zuHause2>well, you could get all kinds of new toys (e.g. Lego)
11:44<svip>Oh yeah.
11:44<svip>Here comes the West!
11:44<Eddi|zuHause2>or Matchbox cars
11:44<svip>We got LEGO!
11:44<svip>\o/
11:44<Eddi|zuHause2>well, that WAS important at age 8 ;)
11:44<@Bjarni>I have had lego for as long as I can remember :D
11:44<Eddi|zuHause2>we also had some basic plastic brick sets, but they were not "cool" ;)
11:45<@Belugas>of course :)
11:46<svip>;)
11:46<svip>I loved that Mittag im West show, Eddi|zuHause2.
11:46<@Belugas>my wife and I were following the events at that time. We were glued to the TV. The one question that keep on going on was "How the eastern are feeling the change"
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11:47<Eddi|zuHause2>i remember my first lego was a TV broadcast truck
11:47<Eddi|zuHause2>well, all the political stuff went past me
11:47<@Belugas>I can believe that :)
11:48<@Belugas>we had suspictions that the TV was not showing both side's opinions accurately
11:48<@Belugas>but...
11:48<@Belugas>long time...
11:48<@Bjarni> <Belugas> we had suspictions that the TV was not showing both side's opinions accurately <-- you mean that they ever do that?
11:48<Eddi|zuHause2>well, most people in east germany had western TV ;)
11:49<Eddi|zuHause2>(although that was illegal)
11:49<svip>:P
11:49<@Bjarni>that's not what I meant
11:49<svip>Bjarni. Check out these cakes.
11:49<svip>http://83.90.32.114/spil/?p=gallery&album=kager
11:49<@Bjarni>I meant news in general
11:49<Eddi|zuHause2>yeah, i know what you mean
11:51<@Bjarni>svip: you can't beat http://www.openttd.org/images/screens/r10000/r10000.png
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11:53<svip>Pfft.
11:53<svip>That is just eatable paper, Bjarni.
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11:55[~]Bjarni holds on to iPandaMojo
11:55<@Bjarni>hi iPandaMojo
11:55<TrueBrain>hmm, why is EveOnline always so tempting to start playing...
11:55<iPandaMojo>morning
11:55<@Bjarni>this time you stay long enough for a greeting
11:55<TrueBrain>for sure when I do, I can't leave it alone...
11:55<iPandaMojo>IRC client autoupdate and restart ;)
11:57<@Bjarni>hmmm
11:57<@Bjarni>...morning
11:57<@Bjarni>is it morning already?
11:57<iPandaMojo>here it is
11:57<iPandaMojo>9:57am
11:57<iPandaMojo>It's a conspiracy I tell you
11:57<svip>Timezones?
11:57<svip>Yeah.
11:57<@Bjarni>no
11:57<svip>I think the idea of timezones are stupid.
11:58<svip>We should all be using the same timezone.
11:58<@Bjarni>temporal anomaly
11:58<iPandaMojo>Flatten the earth!
11:58<svip>Nono.
11:58<svip>I mean... do I have to go to bed because it is four in the morning or starting to get light outside?
11:58<svip>The latter.
11:58<@Bjarni>well... we do work towards reducing the number of timezones
11:59<svip>So what if that was four in the evening.
11:59<@Bjarni>when the East coast-Chigago railroad was built, it crossed around 100 timezones
11:59<@Bjarni>nobody could figure that out, so the railroads managed to get the number of timezones reduced
12:00<Eddi|zuHause2>similar story in germany
12:00<Eddi|zuHause2>although it was only like 6 timezones
12:01<@Belugas>
12:01<@Belugas>Canada uses six primary time zones
12:01<Eddi|zuHause2>the problem was that it was impossible to figure out when trains were gonna meet by just looking at the timetable
12:02<Eddi|zuHause2>because between two stops, there could be a 5 minute time difference
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12:03<@Bjarni>yeah
12:04<@Bjarni>before the railroads, it was ok to declare 12:00 as the time when the sun was at max height.... walking and horses are too slow to catch up with the sun and watches was not that accurate back then, so you had to correct them anyway
12:05<ln->they could have simply used NTP
12:05<Eddi|zuHause2>clocks were mostly stationary at that time, i believe
12:05<@Bjarni>once the steam engine pulled a train at 50 km/h or maybe even more then people were able to move faster than the inaccuracy in watches and it was more important to know the minutes as well
12:06<@Bjarni><EddizuHause2> clocks were mostly stationary at that time, i believe <-- they had watches that could be moved, but they lost or gained time so fast that they had to correct the time on them every day using a stationary clock as reference
12:07<@Bjarni>so when you walked from town to town, when you reached a town with a stationary clock you corrected your own (if you were one of the few, who had one)
12:07<@Bjarni>so timezones made no sense back then
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12:09<@Bjarni>The railroad in Sweden solved the problem in a different way. They declared Göteborg time as "railroad time" so they didn't have to wait for anybody else to agree on their decision. Don't ask me why they picked Göteborg though
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12:10<@Bjarni>as a result, you could see timetables that was say 10 or 15 minutes behind the time in the town of question and the clock on the station was behind all other clocks in the town
12:11<Eddi|zuHause2>on what longitude is Göteborg?
12:12<@Bjarni>hmm
12:12<@Bjarni>it's on the westcoast
12:12<@Bjarni>so the far western part of Sweden
12:12<@Bjarni>don't ask me why they didn't pick anything in the middle or Stockholm
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12:14<@Bjarni> 11°59'10.86"E according to google earth
12:16<Eddi|zuHause2>that is not even close to the 15° that was taken as reference later
12:16<ln->there's nothing but forest and lakes and a few dalahästar in the middle.
12:17<@Bjarni>yeah, but then it wouldn't be 24 minutes away from Stockholm
12:17<nairan>http://www.transbuddha.com/mediaHolder.php?id=2261 =)
12:18<Eddi|zuHause2>but maybe the decision was made like this so local times only vary in one direction
12:18<@Bjarni>could be
12:18<Wolf01>Eddi|zuHause2, could you help me to find an out of bound exception? http://rafb.net/p/XGL5gB28.html
12:19<@Bjarni>hmm
12:20<@Bjarni>Göteborg is fairly close to Helsingborn and Malmö (in longitude), so one could argue that it's the time of a great part of the population
12:20<Eddi|zuHause2>Wolf01: unrelated, but maybe you should not assert() on user input...
12:20<@Bjarni>as if I recall correctly they are all on top 5 of population of Swedish towns
12:20<@Bjarni>nairan: wtf is that and how is it related to openttd or the topic?
12:21<nairan>it was related to sweden ==)
12:22<Eddi|zuHause2>Wolf01: line 64 is probably incorrect
12:22[~]Bjarni fails to see the connection to 19th century Sweden
12:22<Wolf01>line 64 is a comment
12:22<Eddi|zuHause2>you add code_length unconditionally, but "//" is way shorter
12:22<Eddi|zuHause2> i += code_length;
12:23<Eddi|zuHause2>that is line 64 here
12:23<Wolf01>oh, yes
12:23<iPandaMojo>"if (length = 0)" will always be false, too.
12:23<Wolf01>the other 64
12:24<Eddi|zuHause2>57: length = i + text.find("/", i); <- the i+ looks wrong here
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12:27<Wolf01>and this time i aided myself with a drawing... think if not
12:29<SmatZ>assert(i++ < slength);
12:29<SmatZ>it will cause i++ when debugging, no i++ when debug is off
12:30<SmatZ>i+1 should be there
12:30<Wolf01>yes, thank you, i'm an idiot
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12:37<Eddi|zuHause2>or the i++ before the assert
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12:39<Wolf01>dinner
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13:33<Wolf01>if (length = 0) <---------- 8====D
13:33<Wolf01>this was one error... THE error
13:33<SmatZ>:-)
13:34<SmatZ>most compilers will give warning about that one
13:37<Wolf01>http://rafb.net/p/9cE2qj68.html and now it doesn't bitch if there aren't colorcodes
13:38<SmatZ>so does it work?
13:38<Wolf01>do you want a screen?
13:38<SmatZ>I don't know what I should expect
13:39<Wolf01>many thanks to you all, i think i wouldn't succeed to make it work without your help :D
13:39<SmatZ>:-)
13:39<Eddi|zuHause2>you can't expect me to spot that kind of errors :p
13:39<Eddi|zuHause2>it's one of the reasons why i hate the C syntax
13:40<Wolf01>http://wolf01.game-host.org/framework/framework.PNG
13:40<Wolf01>(the background borders are for debug)
13:40<SmatZ>err... nice :-D what is it good for?
13:41<Wolf01>nothing, i'm testing some functions
13:41<Wolf01>me and a friend of mine are planning to make a sort of gamemaker in c++
13:42<Wolf01>i'm working on some lame drawing functions while he is working on the objects and events
13:43<SmatZ>:-D
13:44<SmatZ>wouldn't you like to fix ottd bugs instead? ;-)
13:44<Wolf01>that is really more difficult than this
13:45<Wolf01>and i think you already noticed that i really need some time to fix also the most idiot error
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14:02<Wolf01>ok, for this week is enough for that project, now again at work to the fast gui for ottd :)
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14:08<Wolf01>what's changed in the sources? the compiler took 6 minutes to compile all
14:09<SmatZ>since when?
14:10<Wolf01>yesterday
14:11<SmatZ>I don't know, it never takes me 6 mins to compile...
14:11<SmatZ>nor today
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14:53<Wolf01>in the windows desc struct is possible to set variable coordinates?
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15:05<Sacro>the openttd wikipedia page wasn't written by an englishman
15:05<Sacro>As of begin 2007, the code is converted to C++, with 0.6 as first version based on the C++ code.
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15:12<Greyscale>Gotta go nao!
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15:13<Wolf01>'night
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15:54<TrueBrain>Sacro: no, it was written by me, but nobody seemed to be able to correct me...
15:55<TrueBrain>Sacro: but feel free to edit it ;)
15:55<TrueBrain>(btw, using one line of text as proof one person wrote it, is a bad idea ;))
16:04<SmatZ>TrueBrain: seems #openttd.notice is broken, it doesn't give any message about FS updates
16:04<SmatZ>could you do something with that?
16:04<SmatZ>please
16:05<TrueBrain>now aint that weird...
16:05<TrueBrain>my client said _42_ had +v
16:05<TrueBrain>oftc-servers said he had not
16:05<TrueBrain>weird :p
16:06<SmatZ>:-)
16:08<SmatZ>git.openttd.org - 403 Forbidden :-(
16:09<TrueBrain>that is weird
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16:30<TrueBrain>I am back! :p
16:30<SmatZ>great
16:31<SmatZ>and all your services work too :-)
16:31<TrueBrain>yup
16:32<SmatZ>_42_ will need +v
16:32<SmatZ>what happened?
16:32<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r11102 /trunk/src/ (4 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: remove some pointless addition+substractions. Patch by frosch.
16:32<TrueBrain>for once in my life: no idea
16:33<svip>:O
16:33<svip>UNPOSSIBLE!
16:33<SmatZ>yes :-)
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16:35<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r11103 /trunk/src/viewport.cpp: -Codechange: remove pointless comparison as it can never ever be true (unless you've got at least 3 bit errors and then you're screwed anyway). Patch by frosch.
16:35<SmatZ>funny, "every recursive algorithm can be rewritten not to use recursion, by using some stack"
16:36|-|Progman [~progman@p57A1DF27.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd
16:37<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r11104 /trunk/src/viewport.cpp: -Fix: bounding boxes also overlap when the min of a bounding box is equal to the max of another bounding box. Patch by frosch.
16:38<Rubidium>that's called "hiding the recursion"
16:39<Eddi|zuHause2>SmatZ: what's so spectacular about that?
16:40<SmatZ>it is funny, because it is useless - if you emulate stack in software (that stack where local variables are stored), you will ratther get worse performance than when you let it done by hardware
16:40<Eddi|zuHause2>especially, since recursion is usually implemented by using a stack
16:40<Eddi|zuHause2>this is totally not about "performance"
16:40<SmatZ>not talking about need to malloc() and realloc() the stack as it is growing...
16:41<Eddi|zuHause2>you think way too fixed on C
16:41<SmatZ>I know I am not good in telling jokes... maybe things that are funny for me are not funny for others, too :-P
16:41<Eddi|zuHause2>you need to think about it from a theoretical point
16:41<SmatZ>any (almost) operating system has some kind of malloc()
16:42<SmatZ>thery - when calling a function, the local variables are stored in a stack, that is hardware managed
16:42<Eddi|zuHause2>now go programming in lamba calculus
16:42<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause2: that still has recursion
16:42<Eddi|zuHause2>i know
16:42<SmatZ>ok, there may be languages that don't allow recursion...
16:42<Eddi|zuHause2>technically, that is pure recursion :p
16:44<Eddi|zuHause2>SmatZ: still, you cannot judge a mean of theoretical computer science by its first glance appearance in context of a "real world" computer
16:46<Eddi|zuHause2>e.g. in our theoretical computer science class, we inroduced two completely different programming languages
16:46<Eddi|zuHause2>first, the "primitive recursion"
16:46<Eddi|zuHause2>that is more or less a simplification of functional languages
16:47<Eddi|zuHause2>second, the "loop language"
16:47<Eddi|zuHause2>that is more or less a simplification of imperative languages
16:47<Eddi|zuHause2>and then you have to prove that both languages can solve the same class of problems
16:48<Eddi|zuHause2>(note, they are both not turing capable)
16:49<Eddi|zuHause2>(for that, you need to extend the first one by "search for first 0" and the second by a "while not 0")
16:50<Eddi|zuHause2>(we actually extended the second language by "if 0 goto LABEL")
16:50<SmatZ>I studied a bit different things than you
16:50<Eddi|zuHause2>this is totally not about "performance", it is about "what is the most simple representation so we can prove anything"
16:51<SmatZ>so - all that recursion does is that it stores actual frame (local variables and instruction pointer), and adjusts stack pointer, and jumps somewhere
16:52<Eddi|zuHause2>if you have proven a theorem about stacks, you can use the above sentence to generically reduce any recursive problem to stacks, and transfer the theorem easily to recursion
16:52<SmatZ>exactly the same that would be done using software emulated stack
16:53<SmatZ>I cannot prove you are wrong because I don't know the exact meaning of words you are using
16:53<SmatZ>I do not say you are wrong
16:53<Eddi|zuHause2>e.g. if you have a way to prove that a stack can never exceed X elements, you can reduce a recursive program to stacks, and then prove that your algorithm never exceeds recursion level X
16:55<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r11105 /trunk/src/ (viewport.cpp viewport.h): -Codechange [FS#1223]: add some support for tuning of the bounding boxes for some special cases (like tunnels and bridges). Patch by frosch.
16:59<SmatZ>Eddi|zuHause2: nice you like the theory
17:00<Eddi|zuHause2>i do indeed ;)
17:00<Eddi|zuHause2>practical programming is nasty :p
17:01<SmatZ>yes, it is :-D except ottd and some other projects ;-)
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17:16<Dreamxtreme>Evening
17:16<Dreamxtreme>im got probs
17:16<Dreamxtreme>ive
17:16<SmatZ>hello
17:16<SmatZ>what problems?
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17:17<Dreamxtreme>my server isn't displaying in Openttd but is on the servers page
17:17<SmatZ>do you have all needed ports unblocked?
17:17<TrueBrain>you host your own server?
17:18<TrueBrain>and the server is on the same computer you try to find it as client?
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17:18<Dreamxtreme>yes theres only 1 port as far as i can tell
17:18<Dreamxtreme>and yes i run my own
17:18<Dreamxtreme>yes
17:18<TrueBrain>Dreamxtreme: it happens on some routers that you can't reach your own server via your external IP
17:18<Dreamxtreme>it was there a min ago
17:18<Dreamxtreme>but i restarted it and now its not
17:18<TrueBrain>as long as other clients can see you, you should be fine ;)
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17:19<Dreamxtreme>yes but i want to play it as well!
17:19<TrueBrain>and you show up on the list here just fine
17:19<TrueBrain>Dreamxtreme: select LAN in the select box, and it will show up
17:20<Dreamxtreme>hmm
17:20<Dreamxtreme>ok but it did show up b4 i restarted it
17:21<Rubidium>the problem is that most (if not all) cheap (=dsl/cable) routers do not perform the portforwarding rules when the traffic is coming from the internal network, i.e. it is most likely that your router does not support it
17:22<Dreamxtreme>right o off to play !!UK TTD! all welcome
17:22<Dreamxtreme>hmm it did
17:22<TrueBrain>Dreamxtreme: oh well... as long as we can find your server ;)
17:23<Dreamxtreme>right o
17:23<Dreamxtreme>cheers
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17:25<CIA-1>OpenTTD: truelight * r11106 /trunk/src/ (fileio.cpp fileio.h newgrf_config.cpp):
17:25<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Add: added .tar support; you can pack all files in your data/ dir in how ever
17:25<CIA-1>OpenTTD: many .tar files you like, keeping the dir-structure equal to the unpacked
17:25<CIA-1>OpenTTD: version, and OpenTTD can handle them just like the files were unpacked
17:25<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Note: useful for GRF-packs and 32bpp PNGs. Don't forget to keep the dir-structure alive for 32bpp PNGs!
17:25<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Note: file-loading-order: search-paths, .tar-files in the order found on disk (can be anything at all, don't depend on it.. use 'openttd -d1' to see which order they are added)
17:27<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r11107 /trunk/ (15 files in 3 dirs):
17:27<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Feature: some tool so one can still build tunnels under rails (and other
17:27<CIA-1>OpenTTD: structures) when the owner of the structure built it on foundations and if you
17:27<CIA-1>OpenTTD: have enough "empty" space ofcourse. One could use the tool for some other
17:27<CIA-1>OpenTTD: construction needs too. Patch by frosch.
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17:33<Eddi|zuHause2>that is another one of those really cryptic messages
17:33<Eddi|zuHause2>meaning there could be a big ass feature behind it :p
17:33<SmatZ>yes, I wonder what that feature is
17:33<TrueBrain>I thought my commit was pretty clear ;)
17:34<SmatZ>TrueBrain: your commit was clear and very useful :)
17:34<SmatZ>I was talking about frosch's patch
17:34<Eddi|zuHause2>your commit was unimportant then :p
17:34<TrueBrain>ooowwwhhh! Really?! :p
17:34<TrueBrain>I even made a nice tt-forums post... :( :(
17:35<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r11108 /trunk/src/autoslope.h: -Fix (r11107): somebody forgot to add some file ;) Spoils the fun of the previous cryptic message though.
17:35<Eddi|zuHause2>am i understanding the commit correctly as you can now build tunnels under foundations, but that does not count for tunnel entrances (yet)?
17:37<TrueBrain>[funny noise]oh jeeh, Eddi|zuHause2, you got to be briliant! I will call you Pinky now[/funny noise]
17:37<SmatZ>seems if you build a tunnel under foudation, the foundation disappears and the land will be levelled
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17:41<SmatZ>the behaviour of flooded airports in 0.5 is really nice - the aircrafts keep exploding when they are on the airport :)
17:41<SmatZ>nice to watch
17:42|-|Eddi|zuHause2 changed nick to TruePinky
17:42<TruePinky>better now? :p
17:43<+glx>lol
17:43|-|TruePinky changed nick to Eddi|zuHause
17:44<Eddi|zuHause>having a different nick scares me...
17:44|-|mode/#openttd [+o Belugas] by ChanServ
17:44<SmatZ>the patch does something different - similiar to the original autoslope patch, you may just lower land everywhere (eg. next to houses, industries) and raise land when there are foundations
17:45<Eddi|zuHause>SmatZ: that's why it's called autoslope :p
17:45<SmatZ>not next to unmovables
17:45<SmatZ>yes :)
17:45<SmatZ>I just didn't know it was called autoslope
17:45<SmatZ>from the description of commit
17:46<Eddi|zuHause>the cryptic message shouted "autoslope" all over the place, hence my initial reaction ;)
17:46<SmatZ>[00:28:36] <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r11107 /trunk/ (15 files in 3 dirs):
17:46<SmatZ>do you mean this commit?
17:47<Eddi|zuHause>yes, that one
17:47<SmatZ>rofl
17:47<Eddi|zuHause>if you remember the kind of messages for one way roads, or for trams
17:47<SmatZ>it is buggy
17:47<SmatZ>if you lower land under industry
17:48<SmatZ>your tunnel may end in the center of an industry
17:48<Eddi|zuHause>i think bridges over everything also had such a cryptic message, but i am not sure ;)
17:48<SmatZ>:-D
17:49<SmatZ>*** glibc detected *** ./openttd: double free or corruption (!prev): 0x000000000
17:49<SmatZ>:-x
17:52<SmatZ>http://88.146.45.107/ttd/autoslope-bug.png
17:52<SmatZ>actually not bug with autoslope...
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17:53<Eddi|zuHause>imho, you should not be able to lower land under industry anyway.. but it's more likely that tunnel building is broken
17:53<SmatZ>yes
17:54<SmatZ>it doesn't expect there may be lowered land under something
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18:03<SmatZ>I am just giving info about problems at FS, as I don't have time to solve them...
18:03<CIA-1>OpenTTD: truelight * r11109 /trunk/src/ (fileio.cpp fileio.h): -Fix r11106: it is silly to use a std::list for something that is cleary a std::vector (less memory ;) WHOHO!)
18:04<SmatZ>TrueBrain: you are certainly in a good mood:)
18:04<TrueBrain>I just saved sizeof(void *) bytes per tar-file!!!
18:04<TrueBrain>I mean, come on, with 20 tarfiles that is a while 160 bytes on my computer!
18:04<TrueBrain>it scares me to think that I would keep those bytes unused...
18:05<TrueBrain>bad me! BAD ME!
18:05<SmatZ>and even 40 bytes on a standard 32bit machine!
18:05<SmatZ>no kidding, you did a nice job, every byte counts (truly)
18:06<SmatZ>*80bytes
18:06<TrueBrain>:) I thought it was nice for a difference :)
18:06<Eddi|zuHause>i think in bigger dimensions...
18:07<Eddi|zuHause>meaning O(1) really does not make a difference usually :p
18:08<TrueBrain>this is O(n)
18:08<TrueBrain>if we would search
18:08<TrueBrain>lol
18:08<TrueBrain>nevermind
18:08<TrueBrain>I should stop talking
18:09<SmatZ>I wonder who is going to win the r11111 prize :)
18:09<Eddi|zuHause>i mean O(1) in terms of file size... you did not really modify the number of files
18:09<TrueBrain>ah ;)
18:10<SmatZ>O(n) in terms of number of open files
18:10<SmatZ>hmmm
18:10<Eddi|zuHause>"prize" as in "give a round for everyone in this channel"?
18:10<SmatZ>I should'n talk English :-)
18:10<SmatZ>oh ....
18:11<SmatZ>I really shouldn't
18:11<SmatZ>I don't know :) it would be nice to have a free beer
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18:21<Eddi|zuHause>free beer costs 5€
18:22<TrueBrain>on average
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18:22<SmatZ>that's way too expensive
18:23<SmatZ>in a pub, I can have free beer for as low as ,5 Euro, and in a shop... maybe for ,25 E :)
18:23<Eddi|zuHause>that's a line from a movie
18:23<SmatZ>ah
18:23<Eddi|zuHause>i think it was 5DM actually, but you know... they call it Teuro for a reason :p
18:24<SmatZ>:-D
18:24<SmatZ>when Euro came, the only change was rewriting DM -> E, and prices stood the same?
18:24<SmatZ>:)
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18:25<Eddi|zuHause>that's what some people keep telling at least
18:26<Eddi|zuHause>same written price means almost twice real price
18:26<Eddi|zuHause>exchange ratio is 1,95DM = 1
18:26<Eddi|zuHause>
18:27<SmatZ>it was rather cheap DM and expensive USD that time... earlier it was rather 1USD = 30CZK, 1DM=20CZK...
18:27<DeGhosty>free beer for a price
18:27<DeGhosty>how is that free?
18:27<SmatZ>now 1E = 29CZK, 1USD=20CZK :)
18:27<Eddi|zuHause>means the "lower folk" rounds that to 2:1, which is part of the reason why everything feels more expensive
18:27<SmatZ>dollars are really chap now
18:28<SmatZ>yes...
18:28<SmatZ>DeGhosty: it is a joke
18:28<Eddi|zuHause>DeGhosty: they call it a joke :p
18:29<DeGhosty>joke?
18:29<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, dollar dropped a lot in the last 5 years
18:29<DeGhosty>that's good
18:29<DeGhosty>i just drive down to usa
18:29<DeGhosty>and everything is cheaper
18:29<DeGhosty>WAHAHA
18:29<Eddi|zuHause>"down" from where?
18:31<DeGhosty>heaven
18:31<DeGhosty>canada
18:32<SmatZ>:-)
18:32<Eddi|zuHause>that did not help in narrowing down the choices :p
18:36<svip>DeGhosty: Who is USA most important neighbour to the north?
18:37<SmatZ>hmmmm it is Friday, I am home, preparing for exams... and listening to music I would likt to listen to somewhere else :-p
18:37|-|Name101__ [~Name101@CPE-121-216-143-142.nsw.bigpond.net.au] has joined #openttd
18:38<DeGhosty>atlaska
18:38<DeGhosty>i mean santaclause
18:38<DeGhosty>gb?
18:38<DeGhosty>greenland?
18:39<svip>b?
18:39<Eddi|zuHause>texas!!!
18:39<svip>Sounds like Great Britain.
18:43|-|Darkebie [~dkb@d5153D5CD.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: VIP Gill ;D]
18:44<Eddi|zuHause>"I personally believe that U.S. Americans are unable to do so because, uh, some people out there in our nation don’t have maps, and, uh, I believe that our education like such as in South Africa and, uh, the Iraq everywhere like, such as and I believe that they should, our education over here in the US should help the US, er, should help South Africa and should help the Iraq and the Asian countries, so we will be able to build up our
18:44<Eddi|zuHause>future for our children."
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18:45<+glx>I saw that on youtube
18:45<SmatZ>yes... didn't say that some miss?
18:45|-|Wezz6400 [~Wezz6400@145-118-111-234.fttx.bbned.nl] has quit [Quit: leaving]
18:46<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, Miss Teen South Carolina
18:46<Eddi|zuHause>i saw that on either Jay Leno or Conan o'Brien
18:46<Eddi|zuHause>or probably both :p
18:47<CIA-1>OpenTTD: glx * r11110 /trunk/projects/ (openttd.vcproj openttd_vs80.vcproj): -Fix (r11107): somebody forgot to update project files ;)
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19:25[~]Sacro wonders round the solaris freeare site
19:25<Sacro>and where is everyone going?
19:25<Sacro>no ops :(
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19:50<CIA-1>OpenTTD: glx * r11111 /trunk/src/newgrf_config.cpp: -Fix (r11106): missing const broke compilation with MSVC
20:00<Sacro>http://finance.google.com/finance?q=NASDAQ:SCOX not looking good
20:10|-|glx [glx@bny93-6-82-245-156-124.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: bye]
20:10<Digitalfox>There goes r11111 .. :)
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---Logclosed Sat Sep 15 00:00:11 2007